»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
lue #| means Pod6 declarator block (there's also #= , which used to be the only way to write them) 00:01
timotimo i think i was missing a my.
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timotimo well, i know i was missing a my, but it seems like that caused the slowdown 00:02
oh, it may very well have been my levenshtein code that took uber long to find something?
i mean the setting is quite huge
probably has an insane amount of blocks 00:03
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timotimo i should really see to it that it aborts quicker. 00:11
good thing people don't seem to use rakudo overnight dP 00:13
:P
at least not such fresh rakudos
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dalek ast: 0acfc00 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
a test for X::Parameter::InvalidType.
 00:45
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timotimo levenshtein slowed down compilation immensely. tge "abort search" return value was not being honored 01:36
sloeed it down when there was an error only, of course
now I'm commuting and i really want to continue working 01:37
hacking rakudo is very pleasant once you know what goes where
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timotimo i'm hopelessly confused. when i throw a X::Undeclared during compilation, the program justcontinues on (apparently forever), using up one full cpu core. what might i be doing wrong? 02:45
sorear If you want it to use both CPU cores, you'll need to run more than one instance of Rakudo, perhaps using make -j 02:46
timotimo haha 02:47
it would be splendid to use more than one core to compile CORE.setting
timotimo distributed debug-say-statements in World::typed_exception 02:50
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timotimo it seems to be endless-looping in the .new of some exception. 03:02
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lue would like to improve nqp's memory usage to speed up CORE.setting 03:53
swarley Can I use recursion in a token definition like this? pastebin.com/2k2P8uSU 03:56
Oh, wait that's probably not what I want
Never mind.
TimToady recursion is fine if you make progress 03:57
swarley Well looking at it again, it would match \\\\\\\\\\u0013
TimToady nodnod 04:01
swarley Also, I have a question about the behavior of this (it's in the skeleton generated from mk_language) 04:02
proto token quote { <...> }
token quote:sym<'> { <?[']> <quote_EXPR: ':q'> }
Does that call an action as well?
Or, can it be made to?
Actually, I'm more confused about the syntax in general 04:04
TimToady one can supply a class that, if it has the same method name, provides the action for that method 04:06
in smaller parser, one generally just embeds the action in a block
<...> is obsolescent though; nowadays one would just use a body of {*}
swarley It seems as if it's also using an internal default lexical pattern to match against the strings. Since that doesn't appear to be much of a regular expression. 04:08
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TimToady there's a method quote_EXPR somewhere, probably 04:09
autumn and I here am
TimToady a little early this year, aren't'cha?
swarley Ah. I would use it, I'm just concerned as to whether or not it would allow for all of the things ruby allows for within its strings. I suppose I'll have to write my own methods to handle them. 04:10
I just wanted to see if I was doing more work than was necessary.
TimToady I don't know much about rakudo quote parsing, having only done it STD's way
autumn ah I would like to know the identity of the person who thought it brilliant to abbreviate 'standard' to 'STD' 04:11
swarley I might look in it to see, I would look at ruby's source, but it doesn't use a lexer actually. It has a specially coded lexer so it's not very easy to tell what it's doing actually. 04:12
Very cryptic code. All of it being embedded within parser.y
TimToady autumn: that would be me :)
autumn swarley: hi.
swarley hi.
TimToady it's not just a pun on venereal diseases, of course, but also STDOUT and such 04:13
autumn TimToady: I mean the general usage q: 04:14
not merely within Perl's domain
TimToady oh, well, back in the day, compilers tended to be limited to, like, six character identifiers, so some of the, er, standard abbreviations stuck around 04:15
timotimo because holding on to old things is always good! :)
swarley I feel that turning this collection of tokens into a full grammar is going to be a week of pain for me. 04:16
timotimo compiles and spectests his branch again, then pullrequests and then finally goes to bed
swarley doesn't have $250 to pay for the ISO specification that has the exact grammar definition
timotimo going to be able to close one more ticket :D
er, i already clicked "send pull request", so the "it also passes the spectests!" in it is ... "optimistical"/"a lie" 04:17
sorear swarley: which ISO spec do you want?
swarley Ruby's ISO. 04:18
timotimo TimToady: did you see rakudo got a few nicer error messages than STD does? :)
sorear ah, not one I have :/
swarley There was a draft available for a while, but the server is locked now
sorear you should check other standards organisations.
timotimo swarley: how about visiting a nearby university library or something? i've seen ISO folders in ours (locked behind glass doors, of course)
TimToady timotimo: STD was meant primarily to be a good example (except where it's a bad example...)
sorear ECMA has mirrors of quite a few ISO and ANSI documents
and the mirrors are often free when then originals aren't 04:19
swarley Hm, that might be a good idea.
Because www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catalogu...mber=59579 is quite ridiculous
Nothing on ECMA 04:21
As far as I can tell.
timotimo All tests successful. - github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/98 would love to see this accepted when i wake up tomorrow/today :) 04:22
r: my $Frob = "frobby frob"; say $frob;
p6eval rakudo 5a895b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable '$frob' is not declared. Did you mean '$Frob'?␤at /tmp/G0RcV_WxW8:1␤------> my $Frob = "frobby frob"; say $frob⏏;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
timotimo r: my @arr = 1, 2, 3; say $arr[1];
p6eval rakudo 5a895b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable '$arr' is not declared. Did you mean '@arr'?␤at /tmp/udCVHJ0WtJ:1␤------> my @arr = 1, 2, 3; say $arr[1]⏏;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ sta…
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timotimo r: class TimToady is Callabel { }; 04:23
p6eval rakudo 5a895b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤'TimToady' cannot inherit from 'Callabel' because it is unknown.␤Did you mean 'Callable'?␤␤at /tmp/8O77X5w1h8:1␤------> ␤»
timotimo feels like he contributed something
TimToady timotimo++
autumn r: timotimo++;
p6eval rakudo 5a895b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ timotimo used at line 1␤␤»
timotimo ttyl :]
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autumn r: $timotimo = 1; $timotimo++; 04:23
p6eval rakudo 5a895b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable '$timotimo' is not declared␤at /tmp/9RXq69B04a:1␤------> $timotimo⏏ = 1; $timotimo++;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
timotimo r: say spit("timotimo", "t") 04:24
p6eval rakudo 5a895b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ spit used at line 1. Did you mean '&split'?␤␤»
timotimo hm, i wonder...
r: my $Frob = "frob"; say "frob is $frob";
p6eval rakudo 5a895b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable '$frob' is not declared. Did you mean '$Frob'?␤at /tmp/18lVM9xstW:1␤------> my $Frob = "frob"; say "frob is $frob⏏";␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
timotimo oh, that's cool
r: say "there is &UC("FOO") to be done!" 04:25
p6eval rakudo 5a895b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared name:␤ &UC used at line 1␤␤»
timotimo r: say "there is &uC("FOO") to be done!"
p6eval rakudo 5a895b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared name:␤ &uC used at line 1␤␤»
timotimo hm. that one's still missing. oh well.
TimToady need to collect names from outer scopes maybe?
diakopter r: class TimToady is Stingry { }; 04:27
p6eval rakudo 5a895b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤'TimToady' cannot inherit from 'Stingry' because it is unknown.␤Did you mean 'Stringy'?␤␤at /tmp/pLVpFWvQbm:1␤------> ␤»
diakopter r: class TimToady is Fallafle { }; 04:28
p6eval rakudo 5a895b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤'TimToady' cannot inherit from 'Fallafle' because it is unknown.␤Did you mean 'Callable'?␤␤at /tmp/nuSx66n0fy:1␤------> ␤»
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grondilu Shouldn't there be an "inclusive" form for heredocs? I mean, where the extracted string contains the end delimitor? 04:51
could be useful when you want to quote a doc that already has a delimitor, like an ASCII-armored PGP message for instance. 04:52
dalek kudo/nom: bebe8f9 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
abort after finding 20 results of any quality.
 05:04
kudo/nom: d8df9e5 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
factor out suggest_typename
kudo/nom: 0fd030a | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/ (2 files):
added X::Parameter::InvalidType with suggestions.
kudo/nom: 22e7c10 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
abort after 1000 fails, too.
kudo/nom: 933d422 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
actually abort after 1000 tries now.
kudo/nom: 84271dd | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Throw Inheritance::SelfInherit.
kudo/nom: 8356157 | (Will Coleda)++ | src/ (4 files):
Merge pull request #98 from timo/levenshtein

More Levenshtein stuff:types in parameters. code cleanups. Self-Inherit error.
[Coke] timotimo++ 05:05
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swarley I have no idea how I would begin to make C plugins for ruby able to access the parrot process like they do other ruby interpreters 05:19
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swarley What does <.term> signify? 07:31
[Coke] timotimo++ # again; this is very awesome. 07:32
the . means "don't capture" 07:33
<term> is the perl6 rule for a term identifier.
swarley Oh, what is a term identifier? 07:34
Actually, I see term redefined in this file
What is a \h escape?
[Coke] ah, I assumed term was a builtin. if you have a method/regex/rule for term locally, it's that, sure. 07:35
\h is horizontal whitespace.
perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html is a good place to look up syntax, btw.
I need to sleepnow
swarley oh good i was looking for a more unified documentation 07:36
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moritz \o 08:02
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nwc10 sadly it seems to have a somewhat Less Than Awesome side effect *currently*, that I don't know how to fix 08:23
in that, one can't build Rakudo with nqp's master.
specifically, the setting. 08:24
Stage start : 0.000elements() not implemented in class 'Mu'
current instr.: 'create_container_descriptor' pc 17240 (src/gen/perl6-symboltable.pir:6246) (src/Perl6/World.pm:1133)
called from Sub 'declare_param' pc 99536 (src/gen/perl6-actions.pir:35781) (src/Perl6/Actions.pm:3056)
...
oh, naughty terminal. There is newline after 0.000, before elements() not implemented in class 'Mu'
(that's on an x86_64 Linux box with a lot of RAM) 08:25
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moritz tries to reproduce 09:10
09:18 FROGGS__ is now known as FROGGS
FROGGS morning 09:18
tadzik good morning 09:22
rindolf Morning.
tadzik nwc10: oh, on my box that becomes a segfault somehow
rindolf tadzik: what's up?
FROGGS: what's up?
tadzik rindolf: segfaults :P
rindolf tadzik: segfaults. 09:23
Be one with the segfault.
moritz also gets 'elements() not implemented in class 'Mu'' 09:25
tadzik are you all on debugging builds?
09:25 am0c left
moritz isn't 09:25
tadzik hrm
I must be simply unlucky :)
moritz doesn't see a single call to .elements or nqp::elems or so around the line the backtrace points to 09:29
FROGGS rindolf: just trying to wake up 09:31
rindolf FROGGS: wake up hard. Sleep hard. 09:34
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nwc10 tadzik: I get a SEGV on OS X 09:39
but the OS X machine has much less ram
tadzik I've got ~4G here
nwc10 OS X has ~4G, but is using some of it 09:40
x86_64 Linux box I have access to has 64G.
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moritz it would be helpful if somebody bisected it 09:49
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rindolf nwc10: nice! 10:00
GlitchMr I
I've a small problem - the Levenshtein refuses to work now
rindolf nwc10: I ran a Freecell solver on an HPC cluster with some nodes that had 512 GB of RAM.
GlitchMr I'm trying everything. It doesn't work. 10:01
r: Split "a"
rindolf nwc10: x86-64.
p6eval rakudo 835615: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared name:␤ Split used at line 1␤␤»
GlitchMr It worked before github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/98
rindolf nwc10: well, I did it by proxy.
nwc10 does the Levenshtein thingy have tests? 10:02
GlitchMr No
nwc10 ah.
GlitchMr Oh wait, it does
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/98
nwc10 aha, better :-)
GlitchMr The problem with the tests is that they are SKIPPED when the first basic test fails 10:06
r: try eval('my $foo = 10; say $Foo'); say ?$!.^can(<suggestions>)
p6eval rakudo 835615: OUTPUT«True␤»
GlitchMr Or perhaps they work...
r: say $?PERL 10:07
p6eval rakudo 835615: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable '$?PERL' is not declared␤at /tmp/oYJas8qrLF:1␤------> say $?PERL⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
GlitchMr r: class TimToady is Stingry { }; 10:09
p6eval rakudo 835615: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤'TimToady' cannot inherit from 'Stingry' because it is unknown.␤Did you mean 'Stringy'?␤␤at /tmp/6ljA_jmxR_:1␤------> ␤»
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GlitchMr Found the bug 10:10
It seems that function arguments are ignored during the check
r: sub blah(@variabul) { $variabul[1] }; say blah [1, 2, 3, 4]; 10:11
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p6eval rakudo 835615: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable '$variabul' is not declared␤at /tmp/Fd30JUlmFZ:1␤------> sub blah(@variabul) { $variabul[1]⏏ }; say blah [1, 2, 3, 4];␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper… 10:11
GlitchMr r: sub blah(@variabullll) { my @variabul = @variabullll; $variabul[1] }; say blah [1, 2, 3, 4]; 10:12
p6eval rakudo 835615: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable '$variabul' is not declared. Did you mean '@variabul'?␤at /tmp/IHa__wLNjj:1␤------> y @variabul = @variabullll; $variabul[1]⏏ }; say blah [1, 2, 3, 4];␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix or…
GlitchMr This should be fixed
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diakopter GlitchMr: what's wrong with it? 10:16
GlitchMr It doesn't hint variables when they are function arguments. 10:17
diakopter hint?
GlitchMr Normally, I should receive 'Did you mean '@variabul'?'
10:17 xinming left
GlitchMr But I don't when @variabul is function argument. 10:18
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diakopter oh I see 10:18
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GlitchMr Hi, zby_home_ 10:19
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nwc10 found *which* bug? the origin of the SEGV or Mu error? Or the "it's not reporting correctly" that you described eralier? 10:26
GlitchMr It doesn't say 'did you mean' 10:35
jnthn wonders if the SEGV is due to an NQP change or a Rakudo one 10:40
tadzik nqp 10:41
I bisected rakudo, all on nqp master, and it was segfaulting even in december revisions 10:42
jnthn elements() not implemented in class 'Mu'
yup, got it here too
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FROGGS I dont get it and my nqp is: This is nqp version 2013.01-9-g769044f built on parrot 4.10.0 revision RELEASE_4_10_0 10:46
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jnthn oh... 10:49
FROGGS ... in case I need to force this bug to happen somehow 10:50
*dont*
jnthn FROGGS: No, you're doing the Sensible Thing and building the NQP in NQP_REVISION.
moritz NQP 2013.01-9-g769044f blows up
erm no, 2013.01-15-g2a13778 blows up 10:51
jnthn I figured out wha tit is.
FROGGS jnthn: yes, I always checkout the revision given by rakudo/tools/...
moritz so no need to bisect nqp?
jnthn Last night's round of changes extended the repr API
And so to run on latest NQP needs an update in the Rakudo repo too 10:52
Bisecting will most likely reveal that bb9778 is the one to blame. 10:55
masak good forenoon, #perl6 10:56
jnthn Anyways, working on updating Rakudo for this stuff
o/ masak
rindolf masak: hi.
FROGGS masak! \o/ :o)
rindolf masak: what's shaking?
masak rindolf: breakfast.
rindolf masak: nice. 10:57
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rindolf masak: what are you having for b-fast? 10:57
moritz wonders what kind of breakfast shakes
jnthn moritz: Breakfast eaten during a gentle earthquake.
Su-Shee moritz: a strawberry or banana milk shake
rindolf only had Pitah bread with Hummus.
masak fried bacon, fried egg, a few hazelnuts and some brie cheese. :) 10:58
Su-Shee I had porridge
masak: excellent choice.
rindolf masak: sounds good. Fancy.
FROGGS porridge++
masak yeah, I like this breakfast.
Su-Shee masak: though I hate smelling of fried bacon in the morning.. no breakfast for "after the shower"
FROGGS I can eat that every morning
rindolf It was Hummus that we bought from the supermarket - nothing too fancy.
moritz had some left-over skuffe kake for breakfast
FROGGS and (full scottish breakfast)++ 10:59
Su-Shee moritz: now you're showing off with your wife's dishes ;)
moritz Su-Shee: and why not? it was tasty :-)
Su-Shee moritz: AND US?
ok, I have koenigsberger klopse for lunch in the kitchen :) 11:00
FROGGS skuffe kake? it's not like shortbread, no?
moritz Su-Shee: there's other cake left-overs here.. drop by to try them :-)
phenny: no en "skuffe"?
phenny moritz: "bucket" (no to en, translate.google.com)
moritz phenny: nb en "skuffe"?
phenny moritz: "bucket" (no to en, translate.google.com)
moritz more like drawer, afaict 11:01
masak Su-Shee: huh. haven't thought much about bacon smell getting stuck on a person...
Su-Shee masak: one of the most sticky smells after cooking..
moritz FROGGS: it's a flat chocolate cake, suitable form to be stored in a drawer :-) 11:02
Su-Shee moritz: IKEA CAKE
FROGGS moritz: like rührkuchen in flat?
moritz Su-Shee: nah, ikea is Swedish :-)
FROGGS: yes 11:03
FROGGS k, that settles it ;o)
Su-Shee if I had money thought the very first thing I'd want is getting served great breakfast - with everything I'm too lazy to do every day - a bowl of fruit salad for example.
nwc10 not disputing that, but I thought that Ikea was also a closely held Dutch registered non-profit, for the purposes of not paying anyone tax.
Su-Shee moritz: bah, obviously flat cakes transpire ;)
FROGGS we made rainbow cake yesterday, for my sons birthday (with smarties and chocolate letters)
moritz FROGGS: you're missing something by not drooping by tomorrow :-)
FROGGS moritz: ya ò.ò 11:04
ó.ò
Su-Shee I have soudough bread in the making. :)
moritz we need to make food&perl6 hackathon someday :-)
FROGGS btw, for my birthday there is always "death by chocolate" 11:05
ohh ya
tadzik so, when is this German hackathon? :)
FROGGS food++ => good
jnthn ooh, a German hackathon? :)
FROGGS tadzik: I'd vote for feb, so I dont need to wait so long 11:06
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FROGGS but where? 11:06
moritz FROGGS: a friend of mine (experimental physicist, I should add) did some thorough experimental analysis of how much chocolate you can add to the dough before it collapses
jnthn moritz, nwc10: Think I've got a working fix.
11:06 Su-Shee left, Su-Shee_ is now known as Su-Shee
moritz jnthn: \o/ 11:06
FROGGS: well, I toyed with the idea of making one at my place
so, Fürth
tadzik FROGGS: 2nd half of Feb would be fine with me 11:07
Su-Shee moritz: haha. that assumes that you need to have something like a dough ;)
jnthn It was on my todo list for today to update Rakudo to take advantage of the changes, but I'd not quite realized they'd break ability to build on NQP master...
tadzik FROGGS: and the easter the better, if you know what I mean :)
Su-Shee moritz: you can bake a mix of beaten eggs and chocolate and sugar.
moritz heh, easter is an interesting option 11:09
I'll have to check with $wife
FROGGS it is... easter might work
11:09 thou left
tadzik er, I mean on the east 11:09
eastern germany
geographically-wise
FROGGS moritz: there a CHECK stage in Wife.pm?
ahh
well, would be okay for me ;o)
jnthn will not be in this part of the world during this easter 11:10
moritz :(
GlitchMr rn: gist.github.com/4577858 11:11
p6eval rakudo 835615: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ binary_search used at lines 2, 10, 11. Did you mean '&binary-search'?␤␤»
..niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'binary_search' used at line 2,10,11␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1443 (die @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @…
jnthn moritz: Already had vacation planned at easter for a while, and I'll be in big trouble if I choose a hackathon over it :) 11:12
dalek kudo/nom: 3c4fd0f | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
Update 6model header and bump NQP_REVISION.

This tracks the REPR API change, and will allow Rakudo to make use of it (will happen in future commits).
kudo/nom: 2752787 | jnthn++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
Add missing dependency.
tadzik so, end of Feb? 11:14
FROGGS fine for me
who would like to come in general?
tadzik me
\o/
FROGGS me from berlin, moritz from nuremberg#
Su-Shee from where?
tadzik berlin I think
GlitchMr gist.github.com/4577858 11:15
I should stop using Jekyll for my blog
tadzik well, end of Feb is almost march, which is almost GPW
GlitchMr Because making 10 commits until syntax highlighting works is crazy
FROGGS well, I dont mind if I had to travel a bit, but if ppl will come by plain, it would be crap for them if we would do it in Leipzig or so
jnthn Late Feb is probably workable here. 11:16
moritz like, 18th or 25th?
tadzik 25 more like
(for me
jnthn 256h is far better
tadzik or maybe 23-24? 11:17
jnthn We have a speaking tour at $dayjob 20th-22nd
Su-Shee FROGGS: from where what?
tadzik duh
moritz tadzik: weekend would be much more workable for me
FROGGS Su-Shee: where do you live? (if you are interesting to come to a p6hackaton)
tadzik moritz: yeah, same here
jnthn Which'll tie myself and masak up. But I could probably fly to Germany on 22nd evening.
tadzik studying full time and working half time doesn't favour the middle of the week :)
moritz oh dammit, I was looking at the calendar for 2012 11:19
Su-Shee FROGGS: Berlin, Germany.
moritz good morning moritz, it's 2013 now!
tadzik good moritz morning :)
Su-Shee seems the wife cake didn't really help the brain.. ;)
moritz Su-Shee: it's no therapeutic cake :-) 11:20
Su-Shee EVERYTHING WITH CHOCOLATE IS THERAPEUTIC :)
FROGGS even the counselor on the enterprise eats chocolate for that reason 11:21
Su-Shee exactly. 11:22
tadzik Troi?
FROGGS right
Su-Shee tadzik: yes.
FROGGS jnthn / masak: to what city do you fly to cheapest? 11:23
if Berlin would be an option... would be cool
Nuremberg is a bit off though ó.ò
Su-Shee tadzik: there's a scene where she order something like a triple whatever chocolate icecram with chocolate sauce etc etc and the replicator answers "this doesn't confirm to the starfleet standard health whatever" - I'm waitin when this happens in supermarkets :)
tadzik yay, I understand Star Trek references :) 11:24
Su-Shee FROGGS: generally when it comes to flying the best option in germany is frankfurt.
FROGGS Su-Shee: she asked it to make a real chocolate ice-cream thingy
_real_
tadzik Su-Shee: ha-ha
eh, that looks a bit ironic. It's not :)
moritz eeks. I just looked into my calendar, and I have small teeth surgery on Feb 21st 11:25
and it's not clear how well I'll be on the weekend afterwards :(
FROGGS eeks, indeed
tadzik :(
Su-Shee q: I'm hungry and in a bad mood. data: I've observed that counsellor troi eats chocolate icecream when she is in a bad mood. q: I take 5. :)
FROGGS Q ordered 10 11:26
Su-Shee FROGGS: *sigh* yes, that was totally the point.. he ordered 1
10
FROGGS "I never ate, I am very hungry"
tadzik q, like the shapeshifter guy?
playing games etc? 11:27
Su-Shee tadzik: the shapeshifter guy is Odo in DS9. Q is the omnipotent being in TNG
tadzik yeah, TNG
well, the clotheshifter then :)
FROGGS Q is even not his name, all of them are Q
hehe, ya
Su-Shee tadzik: man, get an education ;)
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tadzik I was mostly right :) 11:28
FROGGS tadzik: we'll teach all the important stuff when you are here
;o)
like recognizing the klingon background music 11:29
tadzik hehe
looking forward to it
11:29 huf left
tadzik the star wars soul is dying :P 11:29
and all because of laziness
moritz since Q is omnipotent, he/it can also shapeshift 11:30
so tadzik wasn't all too wrong, no?
:-)
FROGGS but Q never did that, at least not in front of a cam
moritz maybe just shy :-) 11:31
FROGGS hehe
maybe
moritz I mean, we usually don't change in front of the camera either :-)
FROGGS hmm, I would do it if I could 11:32
tadzik :D
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FROGGS flying to work like a condor or so 11:32
the problem might be the heavy laptop there
tadzik there is this TV ad in Poland recently, about paying with your phone 11:33
moritz
.oO( UPS express shipping )
tadzik it's full of naked people who are paying for everything with their phones
the slogan being "you don't have to carry anything", or something of this sort
I can't help but wonder, where do they stick up their phones ;_;
FROGGS *g*
sorear where did star wars come in? 11:34
FROGGS ya, a nokia 3310 would work, but what about these huge smartphones??
tadzik maybe that's one of those societes which always carries a phone in their hand, no matter what
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tadzik sorear: from me, being a liberal SF fan, and liking both Star Wars and Star Trek :) 11:34
sorear ok, just so long as you don't try to claim they're the same :p 11:35
tadzik hehe, no :) It's mostly Films vs Books comparison
under the assumption that Star Wars films are negligible 11:36
FROGGS tadzik: I like star wars too
(and lord of the rings _and_ harry potter)
tadzik *gasp*
FROGGS :o)
and simpsons _and_ southpark ages ago 11:37
I'm sooo tolerant *g*
moritz FROGGS: or you just have no taste :-) 11:38
FROGGS no, cant be the reason :o) 11:39
moritz jnthn++ # fix rakudo for newest nom 11:49
s/nom/nqp/
dalek ast: 53c8fe6 | moritz++ | S32-list/pick.t:
RT #109586: Range.pick entropy
 11:51
11:51 vividsnow joined
jnthn finds a great way to slow Rakudo down lots 11:53
diakopter ?
jnthn diakopter: Think I accidentally busted meth cache publication while refactoring :)
diakopter I'll bust your meth cache
tadzik seems like Rakudo is breaking bad 11:54
jnthn *method o.O
diakopter you accidentally the publication 11:55
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nwc10 jnthn++ # works on my machine again 12:00
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dalek kudo/nom: 35b2a92 | jnthn++ | / (4 files):
Start using new REPR compose protocol.
 12:01
nwc10 was that premature of me? :-) 12:02
tadzik jnthn++ commits faster than I compile :)
jnthn nwc10: No, the previous set of commits were the fix to the build breakage.
moritz tadzik: you should let your computer doe the recompilation for you :-)
jnthn nwc10: That latest one is me starting to take advantage of the refactor :)
tadzik but it doesn't segfault now :)
moritz: oh, right, I may want to try that :)
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dalek p-jvm-prep: 0d9bfae | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/ (2 files):
Eliminate some warnings.
 13:49
p-jvm-prep: 7d67dbe | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/SerializationReader.java:
Fix incorrect read.
p-jvm-prep: 85ebe29 | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/SerializationReader.java:
Add some missing reader functionality.
p-jvm-prep: 9ed3774 | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/reprs/P6Opaque.java:
Implement P6opaque REPR data deserialization.
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timotimo moritz: i can take a probably somewhat comfortable train ride to fürth(bay)hbf. how is accomodation handled? are we sufficiently few people so that your floor is enough? :P 14:49
moritz timotimo: I have space for about 3 people (provided two of them share a bed, 140cm wide) 14:50
and maybe a fourth if he is willing to sleep on the floor directly
timotimo hm, that seems a bit clumped
if tadzik, su-shee, jnthn and froggs come, that's already maxed out 14:51
moritz maybe I can organize some friends where others can sleep
tadzik moritz: I don't mind the floor 14:52
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moritz ok, now we still need to find a date 14:54
I guess I'll start a doodle
timotimo r: class Hackathon is Hackathon { has $.fun; has @.cake; has %.beer; }; 15:03
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤'Hackathon' cannot inherit from itself.␤at /tmp/mwSYrzuYTv:1␤------> ␤»
15:03 b1rkh0ff left
tadzik r: class Hackathon is Kachathon { has $.fun; has @.cake; has %.beer; }; 15:10
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤'Hackathon' cannot inherit from 'Kachathon' because it is unknown.␤Did you mean 'Hackathon'?␤␤at /tmp/tZPxi0v02Q:1␤------> ␤»
timotimo oh, well that's not helpful :P
tadzik it's helpful enough, i guess :) 15:11
timotimo got enough bugs and holes in my code to last me all day
masak timotimo++
timotimo r: class Foobar is Barfoo { } 15:12
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤'Foobar' cannot inherit from 'Barfoo' because it is unknown.␤at /tmp/XhiGbgxvLa:1␤------> ␤»
jnthn timotimo: This is nothing, wait until masak starts using it :P
timotimo yeah, that'd be too far
masak ;)
timotimo ehehe, looking forward to it
so what's with the interpreter giving null pmc access in get_string messages when using the repl and encountering an error? (any error? compile-time errors only?) 15:16
jnthn timotimo: I don't know; would be good to track that one down.
timotimo when i start perl6 with --ll-exception and do that, it doesn't show a traceback :(
so, a whole bunch of debug say statements? :|
jnthn Or see if it can be made to show such things with --ll-exception set... 15:17
timotimo the -t parameter to perl6 is woefully useless (it doesn't actually do anything whatsoever) 15:18
jnthn
.oO( there's a -t parameter? )
 15:19
moritz jnthn, masak, FROGGS, timotimo, tadzik: doodle.com/4f2ua4n3mdfir2re
timotimo perl6 --help claims there is, it's supposedly there to let parrot tracing occur
jnthn timotimo: oh, it needs some flags
try --trace=4 15:20
tadzik huh, how can I tell what I'd be doing in April
moritz tadzik: there's this thing called a calendar 15:21
timotimo jnthn: that doesn't work, i've been trying -t 1 -t 2 -t 4, -t 6, --trace=4, nothing does anything
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tadzik moritz: yeah, I know. The thing is, I'm mostly university-driven, and I can't take a vacation from that :/ 15:21
it also has a tendency to announce things ALAP
and definitely not in the previous semester 15:22
anyway, I'll try to fill it as accurately as I can :)
moritz ++tadzik :-) 15:23
timotimo oh
trace does work, but the error happens much too early
could have realized that earlier.
moritz ah, forgot to hilight Su-Shee for doodle.com/4f2ua4n3mdfir2re 15:24
Su-Shee what? 15:25
Now I see green ;) 15:26
tadzik moritz: okay, I marked the dates that are probably fine :)
I hope nothing pops out 15:27
now I'm excited :) 15:28
moritz should implement a doodle (subset) clone in Perl 6 15:29
timotimo i can get lots of traces when i try eval('class A is A { }');, but i get Nil as return value and $! is Any() 15:31
echo 'class A is A { };' | perl6 --target=parse -> Could not locate compile-time value for symbol StaticLexPad <- could this perhaps be the error that's thrown and then error reporting fails for some unknown reason? 15:34
tadzik moritz: oh yes, and with a sane API
like, no OAuth :P
moritz timotimo: nah, --target=parse always says that 15:35
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timotimo ... yay :| 15:35
moritz timotimo: do you have local modifications?
r: class A is A { }
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤'A' cannot inherit from itself.␤at /tmp/75NWgewT2S:1␤------> ␤»
moritz that's what I get too
timotimo even in interactive mode? 15:36
jnthn gets null PMC access in teh REPL for that
moritz ah no, I get "Null PMC access in get_string()"
jnthn hm, wonder what the condition is for that to happen 15:37
Other compile time errors don't do this...
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masak r: class B { ... }; class A is B {}; class B is A {} 15:38
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: ( no output )
masak r: class B { ... }; class A is B {}; class B is A {}; say A ~~ B; say B ~~ A
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«No such method 'ACCEPTS' for invocant of type 'B'␤ in block at /tmp/DEcRqYg7qL:1␤␤»
masak this feels a little familiar...
timotimo indirect self-inherit should throw, too, right?
moritz I guess 'class A is B { }' should die with "Cannot inherit from a stubbed class"
timotimo: right
jnthn Yeah, we should ban inheriting from as stubbed class. It makes at least one RT ticket go away. 15:39
*a
Allowing it and making it behave well is...icky.
moritz jnthn: in world, how do I check if something a symbol is stubbed? 15:40
(or in the actions, or whatever)
jnthn Probably should be checked in the MOP
In add_parent
Can check .is_composed
moritz that's where it's hard to throw typed exceptions right now :(
that will also forbid class A { class B is A { } } 15:41
jnthn True.
moritz (which is a good thing, IMHO :-)
jnthn But I don't think that works today either. 15:42
It'll suffer exactly the same problem.
Better to forbid it now and liberalize later if we find a sane way, than give people weird errors. 15:43
masak aye.
moritz spectests a patch 15:45
timotimo hm, the repl loses $! in between lines. that's a bit annoying 15:46
well, that makes some kind of sense since the lines are supposed to be full "things" anyway 15:53
so, since jnthn could just create rakudo::debugger without touching any of the backend, one would be able to build a truly great REPL in the same way, right?
if there was a binding from nqp to zeromq, i could try to hook up the ipython frontends (notebook, qtconsole, terminal console) with perl6. that might be neat. 15:54
jnthn timotimo: You can probably explore building an alternative REPL outside of Rakudo/NQP using a similar approach. 15:56
The debugger actually leaves the repl in place
timotimo the qtconsole uses pygments to highlight-as-you-type, so we could use hoelzro++ 's work for making that beautiful, too :D
what do you mean with "outside of Rakudo/NQP"? you mean just leave a simple stdin/stdout based protocol in place and hook that up to ipythons zeromq protocol in a higher level languane (like python)? 15:57
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jnthn timotimo: I mean, without modifying NQP and Rakudo themselves. 15:58
timotimo: Like I did with the debugger
timotimo oh. yeah sure 15:59
is your source code a good read to figure that out?
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moritz jnthn: meh. BOOTSTRAP.pm doesn't compose the classes it later inherits from 15:59
jnthn I'm not sure about "good", but it's the only thing doing such tricks...
timotimo right, i'll have a look then :)
jnthn moritz: ah, dang
moritz jnthn: which is why you don't have to write 'augment' in the setting 16:00
jnthn moritz: Yeah, and we need it to leave them open. Grr.
Right.
moritz jnthn: so maybe a named param to add_parent that skips the check?
jnthn moritz: That could work.
:force :)
moritz that was my first though too
then I thought that :allow_open might be clearer 16:01
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jnthn True 16:01
timotimo jnthn: that actually looks somewhat simple (only looking at the main script right now, though) 16:02
you wrote the debugger CLI in perl6, so maybe a zavolaj/inline::c binding to zeromq could fit the deal nicely, too :) 16:04
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moritz jnthn: next bootstrappy problem: native types (declared in the setting, but before Int/Str/Num are composed) 16:10
maybe I should move them to BOOTSTRAP.pm too?
jnthn moritz: Maybe, or maybe in the trait_mod check if the current setting is NULL (meaning we're compiling the setting) and pass the allow open flag if so 16:20
timotimo the ipython zeromq protocol already has a "language" field in the kernel information package :D 16:21
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timotimo so, one important/nice part of the ipython protocol is that a string of code can be sent with the request "is this complete code or should I (the frontend) offer another line of input?". is this doable in perl6 without too much pain? 16:49
jnthn timotimo: STD specifies a mechanism for that; we've not yet ported it. 16:50
Doing that would allow improving the built-in REPL too ;) 16:51
timotimo can you give an estimate in "newbie-hours"? ;) 16:52
jnthn timotimo: You may wish to do the extension in NQP first. I'd say allow an hour or so to understand what's going on in STD, similar to study the REPL code as it exists today, probably a few hours to get it working in NQP land (note that it's HLL::Compiler that needs the changes so it's easiest to get it done in NQP first), then probably not too long to get Rakudo also updated for it since it should be very similar grammar addition. 16:56
arnsholt clones NQP onto new work laptop 16:58
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timotimo phew. 16:59
i wonder if i should start with that, or with binding zeromq, or with building a Compiler that exposes the necessary interface so that a kernel for ipy-zeromq can be built. 17:00
jnthn timotimo: Well, if you do this change you make the built-in REPL immediately better ;)
arnsholt perks up
timotimo: What were your plans for ZMQ bindings?
timotimo arnsholt: this is all still in theoryland. i'd like to bind as much as ZMQ as needed to create an ipython kernel 17:02
arnsholt ipython kernel? 17:03
timotimo yes, ipython has made a split between kernel ("the python interpreter") and frontend ("where the user types and gets output, completions and errors")
they are connected via zeromq. if the (rather simple) interface for the kernel is built for rakudo, we'll immediately get support for the ipython notebook (web-app similar to wolfram mathematica and friends), the ipython qtconsole (highlight-as-you-type, embedded images and plots) and the ipython console terminal 17:04
arnsholt Ooooh, that'd be decidedly shiny 17:05
timotimo what's going on with modules.perl.org? it only seems to load the first few kilobytes or something
17:05 p6eval left
arnsholt ZeroMQ bindings via Zavolaj has been on my TODO list for a while, FWIW 17:05
timotimo well, that might answer it.
17:05 hugme left
timotimo arnsholt: i know nothing about zavolaj. would you be willing to help me with this? 17:06
arnsholt It blocks on a couple of things in the dyncall bits, unfortunately
timotimo aaw, damn :(
arnsholt But if you'd be interested in hacking on it, that would be motivation to keep tweaking it =)
jnthn arnsholt: What bits is it blocking on, ooc?
arnsholt Zavolaj isn't very complicated to use, as long as you're reasonably familiar with how C works 17:07
jnthn: Sized ints in structs/arrays
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timotimo fwiw, the ipython zeromq interface seems to exclusively use the json(?) packed message stuff 17:07
17:07 masak left
timotimo that may or may not make a difference 17:08
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arnsholt There's a a bit of code towards the sized stuff in a branch (nqp/dyncall-sizedints IIRC) but I stagnated after some meta-object problems I couldn't quite figure out 17:09
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jnthn arnsholt: OK. I will need to update the REPRs for the new attribute protocol stuff and may look at sized natives and other such things in Rakudo soon anyway. 17:10
arnsholt: Will remember to take a peek at the dyncall stuff too
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fuad Hello 17:12
masak fuad! \o/
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arnsholt jnthn: That'd be great! 17:12
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fuad masak! my friend! 17:12
masak is indeed fuad's friend
fuad: how are things going? everything fine? 17:13
fuad Nice to see you!
arnsholt I managed to get most of the way there, but in the end I didn't manage to get the size info out of the types passed to the class >.<
fuad masak: Everything is fine, thanks bro, how about you ?
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masak fuad: everything's fine, squared. :) 17:13
fuad masak: glad to hear :) it was a while haven`t seen you. 17:14
masak well, you don't stop by here often enough.
17:14 SunilJoshi left
masak I'm here all the time. :) 17:14
fuad yes, you re right. :) 17:15
masak fuad: remind me, did you ever download Perl 6 and try it? or do you just come here for the nice people? ;) 17:16
GlitchMr I've made December (the Wiki in Perl 6) long time ago. I have forgot about it, but it still was running on perlcabal.org. It was running for 4 weeks without restarting. 17:17
fuad either one :)
GlitchMr s/4/5/
masak GlitchMr: cool.
GlitchMr: means there probably aren't any serious memory leaks :)
jnthn Not Bad. :)
GlitchMr Yeah 17:18
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masak GlitchMr: what's the response time? did you do any measurements? 17:18
GlitchMr lolslow
2 seconds just to display main page
s/2/1
timotimo GlitchMr: there's a memcached package on modules.perl6.org, why don't you roflscale your December with that? 17:19
masak .oO( 2 seconds! when I grew up, we *wished* it took 2 seconds! ) 17:20
GlitchMr Sorry, wrong stats
Actually it's 1 second
masak that's almost bearable. 17:21
and that's with no FCGI at all, right?
GlitchMr Well, it's HTTP::Server::Simple Perl 6 module
timotimo oh, so including interpreter startup time?
masak right. 17:22
GlitchMr Somehow I wonder how nobody noticed 10% of RAM usage on feather, but whatever
I forgot about feather and it was running and running...
masak someone should srsly try to combine Rakudo and FCGI. maybe the response times could even be non-crappy.
GlitchMr But 10% of RAM usage on machine with 1GB of RAM... 17:24
That wouldn't work at all at my VPS with only 128MB of RAM.
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arnsholt masak: I've a plan to eventually get ZMQ going and try Mongrel2 17:31
Of course, given my tuit supply that might take a while >.<
masak nods knowingly 17:33
timotimo arnsholt: is there any p6-ZeroMQ code that you've already written, or have you spent all the p6-zmq tuits on dyncall and friends?
arnsholt timotimo: No code really worth looking at, I'm afraid 17:34
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arnsholt There are two primary tasks in a Net::ZMQ module: 1) Translating the struct defs in libzmq into Perl 6 class Foo is repr('CStruct') { ... } and 2) defining all the functions and their signatures 17:36
1 is the one that blocks on the sized types
Of course 2 isn't much use without 1
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dalek p: d841e27 | jnthn++ | src/HLL/ (2 files):
Abstract notion of "pre-compiled".

Previously, this has been tied to --target=pir.		 17:41
p: 28de581 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/World.pm:
Make add_initializations portable to JVM.
p: a9a0c04 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
Abstract static lexical installation.
17:42 chromis left
timotimo arnsholt: do you think i'd be better off writing a stdin/stdout-zeromq bridge in python utilising JSON::Tiny and concentrating on Net::ZMQ when a basic prototype is up and running? 17:42
arnsholt Yeah, circumventing the whole ZMQ problem with a shim doesn't sound like a bad idea 17:43
dalek p-jvm-prep: 400fea3 | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/runtime/ (2 files):
Prepare for supporting static lexicals.
 17:45
p-jvm-prep: f4f1735 | jnthn++ | nqp-jvm-cc.nqp:
Correctly mark us a pre-compiling.

This is always the case in a cross-compile situation.
p-jvm-prep: cb797bb | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
Implement setstaticlex.
p-jvm-prep: 3fd2ec8 | jnthn++ | lib/QAST/JASTCompiler.nqp:
Turn on compiling post-deserialize tasks.
arnsholt jnthn: I've started mulling over the dyncall stuff on JVM, FWIW 17:51
But decided to hold off on actually implementing anything for the moment
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dalek p-jvm-prep: d6264fb | (Jonathan Stafford)++ | / (3 files):
implements nqp::ord
 18:10
p-jvm-prep: 9f1bd19 | (Jonathan Stafford)++ | / (3 files):
implements nqp::index
p-jvm-prep: 927ad57 | (Jonathan Stafford)++ | / (3 files):
implements nqp::rindex
p-jvm-prep: fc88b8e | (Jonathan Stafford)++ | / (2 files):
implements cmp_i, cmp_n, and cmp_s
p-jvm-prep: baa5d7d | (Jonathan Stafford)++ | t/qast_relational.t:
forgot t/qast_relational.t in previous commit
p-jvm-prep: aa669d7 | jnthn++ | / (3 files):
implements time_i and time_n
jnthn oops, that last one shouolda been (Jonathan Stafford)++ also.
hmm, I guess cherry-pick --no-commit didn't work out quite as I expected... 18:11
masak seems --no-commit stages the changes from the commit of your choice. 18:15
so if you then make a commit, then it's your commit. 18:16
hm, maybe commit --amend would've kept around the original author, I dunno.
jnthn Yeah, I was expecting it to set everything up as a normal cherry-pick and give me a chance to twiddle.
masak checks
18:16 huf left
jnthn The way it does when you get a conflict and have to resolve it. 18:16
arnsholt I think commit --amend replaces the author and email
masak ok. 18:17
jnthn: you probably could've gotten that effect with a well-placed rebase operation.
arnsholt At least, IIRC, that's what git says you should do if you've not set name and email in the config file
masak asks on #git
arnsholt recently set up stuff on a new computer
(Which finally made me set up a dotfiles git repo)
masak yay 18:18
arnsholt "Your branch is ahead of 'origin/dyncall-sized-num' by 531 commits." Yeah, it's been a while allright
timotimo :D 18:19
wow. that's quite some work
arnsholt All of it someone else's =D =D =D
jnthn masak: My best guess is that it didn't set CHERRY_PICK_HEAD 18:20
dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 532 commits to nqp/dyncall-sized-num by arnsholt
arnsholt Just one small change was required in my branch to make the code compile, though. And no merge conflicts
jnthn Wow :)
git++ 18:21
masak jnthn: yes, an ordinary cherry-pick followed by a commit --amend woulda done what you wanted.
arnsholt: it only replaces author name and email if you do --reset-author, too.
18:21 Pleiades` left
arnsholt Well, I'm not sure if anyone's touched the dyncall code since I hacked on this last 18:21
Or any of the other REPRs (since I have one or two lines of tweaks in all of those) 18:22
jnthn masak: OK, good to know. Thanks :)
arnsholt masak: Ah, right. Useful knowledge 18:23
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jnthn shop, dinner, etc. 18:25
&
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moritz finally managed to build something with Lego (though the Duplo variant) that is larger than himself 18:27
benabik O.o 18:28
arnsholt Cool!
Ronja finally big enough for Duplos? =)
moritz arnsholt: she's been playing with it for quite a while, but she got many more pieces for Christmas. Before it was simply not feasible :-) 18:29
arnsholt Good thing she got more for Christmas, then =D
moritz "lego bauen" is one of her favorite phrases these days 18:30
arnsholt: actually not my fault :-)
arnsholt Even better!
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timotimo i wonder if ronja will have to put up with "ronja räubertochter" references when she's in school, or if that will have been completely forgotten until then 18:40
moritz timotimo: I'm pretty sure it won't have been forgotten. But I hope that it's not seen as negative
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moritz timotimo: just as I didn't have a real problem with the "Max und Moritz" referenzes 18:44
s:nth(*-1)/z/c/
timotimo i got lots of "timon and pumba" flak in (i think it was) elementary school
moritz timotimo: never even heard of it 18:45
timotimo from disney's the lion king movie
moritz ah
conjecture: there are no perfect names
masak timotimo: surely "forgotten until then" is a bit unrealistic for a timeless classic. :)
timotimo also, apparently the "lila pause" chocolate bar sounded similar enough to my last name ("Paulssen"), that i got mocked for it, which is really strange to me.
masak timotimo: teasing isn't so much about name similarity, IME, as about how the teasee responds. 18:46
bullys keep going based on the feedback gained from the victim.
timotimo right, that makes sense 18:47
arnsholt Oh, now I remember why my Rakudo segfaults =D
masak the subject matter doesn't have to be very coherent.
arnsholt Always fun coming back to old projects
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arnsholt Arglebargle! That wasn't it, apparently 18:55
moritz masak: and of course everybody who is different and/or doesn't have a cluster of good friends around them is also a likely target
masak yeah. though those characteristics apply to me, and I wasn't bullied. 18:56
arnsholt Rakudo, why u segfault? 18:59
tadzik "bullys keep going based on the feedback gained from the victim."
try ignoring it, arnsholt ;) 19:00
moritz tadzik++
arnsholt tadzik: I'm sure that'll do it =D
Just recompile enough times
tadzik arnsholt: it'll probably stop and move to somebody else :P
arnsholt But I think I found it for real this time. There are two headers I need to update, not just one 19:01
(Since I've changed the layout and size of some core sixmodel things)
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arnsholt Yaaay! No segfault =D 19:04
tadzik \o/
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arnsholt cargocults code for invoking Parrot methods 19:18
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FROGGS good evening 19:30
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colomon cargoculting++ 19:31
masak FROGGS! \o/ 19:35
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timotimo bleh. meant to visit my hackspace, but the ground is frozen solid in places and the trams don't drive 19:59
masak you can hack here with us! 20:00
timotimo sure 20:01
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FROGGS forget python! hack perl 6, resistance is futile :o) 20:02
masak who said anything about python? 20:03
jnthn
.oO( frozen ground stops trams? :) )
 20:04
timotimo jnthn: the signs said something about "ice rain" 20:05
moritz not frozen ground, but tracks covered with fresh ice 20:06
otoh it doesn't take much to stop the public transport in Berlin :-)
nwc10 just because that's what happens in London, doesn't mean that it's big and clever, or somethign that other cities should do to 20:07
although it seems that this time, it failed to fail
jnthn nwc10: They just delegated the failing to the airports.
nwc10 :-) 20:08
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timotimo "colonpair" refers to things like :foo and :bar<quux>, right? 20:14
jnthn aye 20:15
timotimo is there a name for "::"? 20:16
masak .oO( it says "the double colon" on its birth certificate, but to me it'll always be "doubbie" ) 20:17
geekosaur T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM :p 20:18
sorear I think colon pair can refer to :: too
jnthn package separator? :) 20:19
FROGGS namespace separator
package is so perl fivy 20:20
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timotimo god, the ipython code is complex 20:27
lots and lots of indirections 20:28
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benabik "All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of indirection" 20:29
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timotimo reads the docs instead 20:36
dalek p-jvm-prep: be9b63b | jnthn++ | t/qast_variable.t:
Test for lexical lookup by name fallback.
 20:43
p-jvm-prep: a69f53f | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
Implement various cases of lexical lookup by name.
arnsholt benabik: Except the ones due to much indirection =p 20:49
GlitchMr .u ⇔↔ 20:50
phenny U+21D4 LEFT RIGHT DOUBLE ARROW (⇔)
U+2194 LEFT RIGHT ARROW (↔)
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tadzik ⇔↔ looks like a tiny sword 20:51
arnsholt jnthn: Will the NQP bootstrap be all sad panda if I change the layout and size of struct storage_spec? 20:52
20:52 kaare_ joined
arnsholt Or, rather, should it? 20:52
20:53 kaare__ left
GlitchMr std: say 2 == 2 ∧ 3 == 3 20:54
p6eval std 7deb9d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/JkC0kk7eS7 line 1:␤------> say 2 == 2 ⏏∧ 3 == 3␤ expecting any of:␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infixed function␤ statement modifier loop␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 42m␤»
GlitchMr std: my &infix:<∧> = &infix:<||>; say 2 == 2 ∧ 3 == 3
p6eval std 7deb9d7: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 46m␤»
GlitchMr rn: my &infix:<∧> = &infix:<||>; say 2 == 2 ∧ 3 == 3
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/5rYKVr3HYk:1␤------> my &infix:<∧> = &infix:<||>; say 2 == 2 ⏏∧ 3 == 3␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ …
..niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'infix:<||>' used at line 1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1443 (die @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 37) ␤ a…
arnsholt jnthn: Never mind. It's something exploding in the code I added 20:55
jnthn arnsholt: OK. One thing worth noting is that I'm currently trying to kill all the places that make introspection calls from REPRs. 20:56
arnsholt: In favor of the compose REPR function.
arnsholt Right. Probably a good idea
jnthn arnsholt: That is, meta-objects tell the REPR stuff.
arnsholt Definitely sounds like a good idea
jnthn I did the refactor last night / today for P6opaque.
And updated various bits of NQP and Rakudo to work that way. 20:57
arnsholt Which commits are the relevant ones?
jnthn I'm thinking that int16, for example, passes the 16-ness that way.
arnsholt Yeah, that sounds like a good plan 20:58
jnthn And then anything inlining one gets the number of bits by looking at storage_spec
.bits
arnsholt Yup
jnthn bb97781..2a13778 in nqp
35b2a92 in Rakudo 20:59
dalek p-jvm-prep: 98bc4b7 | jnthn++ | docs/ (2 files):
ROADMAP and LHF updates.
 21:00
arnsholt Linus Torvalds can think whatever he wants. GitHub is awesome 21:01
timotimo jnthn: so at the moment you have mostly just qast tests, where you write a qast into the test file and assert it does some sort of thing. how long until qasts generated fro actual nqp can be used for tests? :) 21:07
it's kind of hard for someone not so involved with how exactly nqp does things to see what nqp-jvm can or can't do so far
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jnthn timotimo: nqp nqp-jvm-cc.nqp --setting=NULL -e "nqp::say('hi from JVM')" 21:10
timotimo: In so far as what it can do: cross-compile pretty much all of the stuff in NQP's src/how directory 21:11
Next up is porting ModuleLoader, which needs a few other bits implementing. At that point it should be possible to get a basic NQPCORE.setting in place and start cross-compiling and running some of the NQP tests. 21:12
timotimo ooooh, neat 21:18
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arnsholt jnthn: This new composition protocol seems decidedly more manageable 21:41
masak rn: role Observer[::T] { method on-next(T) { ... } }; class C does Observer[Int] does Observer[Str] { method on-next(Int) { say "OH HAI!" } }
p6eval niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤GLOBAL::T does not name any package at /tmp/YVELYY3oi9 line 1:␤------> role Observer[::T⏏] { method on-next(T) { ... } }; class C␤␤A type must be provided at /tmp/YVELYY3oi9 line 1:␤------> role Obser…
..rakudo 35b2a9: ( no output )
arnsholt Sleepytimes now, but I'll try to hack some more with this in-between slidecrafting tomorrow
masak is there any way for the role to make sure (when it's composed) that the on-next method takes a parameter of type T?
jnthn masak: It only works by name so far. 21:42
masak: Comparing signatures is kinda...well, you know the issues. )
masak aye.
the above seems a very common thing in Java or C#.
it doesn't seem so easy in Perl 6.
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jnthn Well, also if you were doing parametric interfaces then you'd have to write two methods 21:43
One for each parameterization of the interface
Which also doesn't really fit so well with Perl 6. 21:44
masak it doesn't? I thought multis were a nice fit for that. 21:45
multi methods, I mean.
benabik arnsholt: Hide the too much indirection with a layer of indirection. ;-) 21:46
masak benabik: someone's been snorting the Design Patterns book again :P 21:47
jnthn You snort it? Darn, all I did over the years was sniff it... 21:48
masak: Yes, you can, but things relate in different ways.
masak gets the feeling he's trying to fit a square pig into a round sty 21:50
jnthn Feed the pig up until it's round 21:52
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tadzik unless it's a Minecraft-pig 21:57
masak :P
r: role R[::T] {}; class B {}; class C does R[B] {}; say "alive" 21:59
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«alive␤»
masak r: role R[::T] {}; class B {}; class C is R[B] {}
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot call 'trait_mod:<is>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U $child, Mu:U $parent)␤:(Attribute:D $attr, :rw(:$rw)!)␤:(Attribute:D $attr, :readonly(:$readonly)!)␤:(Attribute:D $attr, :box_target(:$box_target)!)␤:(Routine:D $r, …
masak std: role R[::T] {}; class B {}; class C is R[B] {}
p6eval std 7deb9d7: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 45m␤»
masak I realize that Rakudo doesn't have much to work with here...
(it's essentially the same situation as earlier, with trait_mod:<is> doing all the heavy lifting, and we shouldn't muck too much with that) 22:00
swarley r: say 3;
masak ...but I had to realize all on my own that I had used 'is' where I shoulda used 'does'.
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«3␤»
swarley niecza: say 3; 22:01
p6eval niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«3␤»
masak jnthn: is that worth a rakudobug, or should I just write code correctly from the beginning? :P
swarley Oh my, much longer now.
masak swarley: I'm sorry?
jnthn masak: um, I thought we should pun the role into a class and inherit from that.
masak: So file a "prolly shunt fail at all" bug :) 22:02
swarley The last time I remember playing with p6 I remember niecza being faster than rakudo
FROGGS nr: say 3
jnthn swarley: Depends what you're measuring. :)
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9, niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«3␤»
FROGGS nr: say time 22:03
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«1358719365␤»
..niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«1358719367.1365781␤»
masak files a "prolly shunt fail at all" rakudobug
swarley: I don't think you should base implementation speeds off of the results you get back from a bot on IRC, with various latencies involved 22:04
FROGGS and you dont know what the server is doing right now
swarley I suppose so. I really don't want to build niecza right now though 22:05
masak waves the magic wand at swarley that frees him of this responsibility 22:07
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swarley :o 22:07
masak no-one can claim that we here on #perl6 aren't fair and just. or that our pixie dust is anything less than top-notch. 22:08
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swarley ./src/parser/grammar.pg: ['%q'|'%Q'] <.before <[<[_|({]>> <quote_expression: :qq> 22:27
What is the before that's being referenced?
I don't see it defined in the source tree
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timotimo it should be a method of the class. maybe derived? 22:28
er, hold on, that's no tit
swarley Well, a grep from the top level shows it referenced only in that grammar file but it is never explicitly defined
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jnthn swarley: Wait, .pg? 22:29
jnthn gets curious what swarley is using...
swarley Yeah, I'm looking at parrot/cardinal
I'm rewriting a ruby implementation for parrot with the more modern PCT 22:30
I'm just trying to decipher what it's doing
r: say /<.before>/
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«␤»
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jnthn I suspect it's a built-in of sorts 22:31
timotimo have you tried the rakudo debugger?
it can debug grammars and regexes, too
swarley oh, how would I go about using that?
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swarley oh. Before appears to be the equivalent of (?=...) 22:32
From perl5/pcre
jnthn In modern NQP it's defined in src/QRegex/Cursor.nqp which all grammars (eventually) inherit from 22:33
Yes, it's a lookahead
swarley Okay, that should have made more sense than it did originally
masak swarley: I never learned (?=...) et al. they seem very arbitrary to me.
swarley I suppose I'm used to more cryptic regex
masak yeah, bloody Perl 6 and its readability.
swarley D: 22:34
timotimo is going to wireshark an ipython kernel/console session now
had enough of this guessing
jnthn
.oO( does it come with a wirelaser? )
 22:35
masak swarley: eventually, you're meant to be able to do Perl 5 regexes from Perl 6 too, if that's a consolation.
FROGGS nr: "abc" ~~ m/(.)/; say $()
p6eval niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«a␤»
..rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«␤»
jnthn r: say "eventually? now!" ~~ m:P5/ n.+$/
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«｢ now!｣␤␤»
swarley Eventually I'll be used to the perl 6 regular expressions, really they are more like an actual programming language anyway. So there is no good reason that I would have a hard time other than habit and lack of knowledge as to where to look for a unified reference 22:37
but I did just pull this link up from history
perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html
jnthn That's not history, taht's the current spec :) 22:39
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swarley I mean my chat history ;p 22:42
I was given it last night right before I left
jnthn Oh :)
swarley In a rule, can I still use a newline in the body without the newline being part of the "smart" matching? 22:45
masak yes. 22:46
all whitespace in a rule just means "possible whitespace between stuff".
swarley Oh, alright 22:47
masak rn: say "ab" ~~ rule { a b }
p6eval niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
..rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
masak hrm.
oh! except between alphabetic things :)
rn: say "a b" ~~ rule { a b }
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«｢a b｣␤␤»
..niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(3) text(a b) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
masak rn: say "a." ~~ rule { a '.' }
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«｢a.｣␤␤»
..niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(2) text(a.) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
FROGGS rn: say "ab" ~~ rule { 'a' 'b' } 22:48
p6eval niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
..rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
FROGGS hmmm
masak yeah.
which makes sense, if you consider identifiers in a programming language.
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masak 'ab' is one identifier, 'a b' are two. 22:48
swarley So, could these two potentially be identical in behavior? pastebin.com/PMCBt8KA 22:49
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swarley the definition of term seems rather odd though 22:50
token term { \h*\n | \h*';' } 22:51
r: say "hello" ~~ /(\h+)/ 22:52
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
swarley r: say "hello " ~~ /\h/ 22:53
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«｢ ｣␤␤»
swarley r: say "hello " ~~ /./
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«｢h｣␤␤»
swarley okay..
So.. \h is any sort of space that isn't a vertical space 22:54
Which makes that definition seem rather odd 22:55
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geekosaur swarley, makes sense to me; read as statement terminator, not as language term? 22:56
masak then it makes sense to me too :) 22:57
timotimo i have a super simple and totally ghetto wrapper that accepts commands from an ipython console and executes them in a regular rakudo REPL 22:58
swarley Ah, looking at it that way it makes sense
I wouldn't have used simply 'term' as the name in that case though 22:59
I would have gone with line_term or something
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lue hello o/ 23:00
swarley \o
can C plugins be developed for parrot? 23:05
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benabik swarley: You can write new operations and classes in C. 23:07
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masak nr: class A { has DateTime $.dt .= new }; say "alive" 23:23
p6eval niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method ctxzyg in type Method␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaPassSimplifier.pm6 line 162 (run_optree @ 8) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaPassSimplifier.pm6 line 19 (NieczaPassSimplifier.invoke_incr @ 5) ␤ at …
..rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use .= to initialize an attribute␤at /tmp/wSXcJVz1sI:1␤------> class A { has DateTime $.dt .= new⏏ }; say "alive"␤ expecting any of:␤ method arguments␤»
masak I'm curious about this limitation.
the .= syntax is there so I won't have to write the type name twice. 23:24
jnthn masak: It's already RT'd. 23:26
masak: Rakudo is just knowing it doesn't know how to do that transform yet. :)
It's more a NYI than a "no"
It's too convenient not to have, imo.
colomon that's an odd Niecza-error-message 23:27
lue is wondering how to tell a role to wait for calling a method until the role's been composed in NQP, to get traits on attributes in roles working 23:28
jnthn lue: Is it the parrot vtable traits? 23:29
timotimo watches as his desktop slows to a crawl 23:30
lue yes. I really would like to get that QAST::Node children thing done [ it's annoying me now :) ]
masak given a DateTime object, how do I say "three days later"?
(and get a new DateTime object)
jnthn lue: I'm probably gonna refactor away those traits at some point in the next week and replace them with something that'll probably "just work" without needing to do the whole roles hacking. 23:31
lue OK. I'm just suddenly interested in making NQP more memory-efficient is all :) 23:32
masak r: my $dt = DateTime.new("2012-02-27T03:14:15Z"); my $d = $dt.Date; $d++ for ^3; say DateTime.new($d, hour => $dt.hour, minute => $dt.minute, second => $dt.second, timezone => $dt.timezone)
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«Default constructor only takes named arguments␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:725␤ in block at /tmp/kVXM9057m_:1␤␤»
masak hrm. 23:33
oh!
r: my $dt = DateTime.new("2012-02-27T03:14:15Z"); my $date = $dt.Date; $date++ for ^3; say DateTime.new(:$date, hour => $dt.hour, minute => $dt.minute, second => $dt.second, timezone => $dt.timezone)
p6eval rakudo 35b2a9: OUTPUT«DateTime.new(year => 2012, month => 3, day => 1, hour => 3, minute => 14, second => 15)␤»
masak this is the simplest way I can think of. 23:34
feels like we're missing a building-block here.
lue I wonder how acceptable the idea of "Duration literals" would be (e.g. $dt += 3d;)
masak I like the idea of durations, but don't feel the need to make them literals.
not in straight-up Perl 6, at least.
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FROGGS $dt.days += 3 ? 23:35
masak DateTime is immutable.
timotimo wow, a perl6 process just went berserk and made my desktop swap like 3gb of data out to disk
masak and that's not really what I want to do anyway.
I want to safely say "three days later" without having to work with days and months and years.
that's what Date gives me there.
lue $dt + " 23:36
$dt + "3 days" is what I was thinking
masak that one has two problems. 23:38
first, infix:<+> is for numeric addition, nothing else.
second, adding a string like that just looks... weird, and too much like magic.
lue I didn't mean the string literally :) 23:39
masak I like the *intent* behind that, and I'd be happy seeing something about as simple as that.
benabik would prefer $dt + Duration.new(:days(3))
timotimo no! no! bad rakudo!
masak yeah.
benabik: something like that.
benabik If you're doing that a lot, then make shortcuts like days(3).
masak and maybe a shortcut $dt.delta(:days(3))
benabik masak: Ooh.
masak we have to pay close attention to what order to add years, months, days, etc.
I seem to recall DateTime on CPAN did something bad there, and couldn't back out of the decision. 23:40
we could do it right.
but tonight is not the night to design all that. I will sleep on it.
'night, #perl6
lue good knight masak o/
FROGGS I have never seen something wrong in Perl 5's DateTime
timotimo how does rakudo even get so much memory allocated so quickly?! 23:41
what does it put into all that merory?!
i should really, really set a better ulimit >_<
benabik somewhat likes C++11's std::chrono
lue (Of course, these shortcuts are hopefully overrideable for different calendar modules.)
lue notes to look at std::chrono
timotimo: ooc, what are you running (anything like CORE.setting?) 23:42
jnthn sleep time &
timotimo lue: as far as i know i'm just running "perl6"
lue good knight jnthn o/
FROGGS gnight
timotimo good night jnthn :)
23:42 FROGGS left
timotimo lue: Popen("perl6", stdin=PIPE, stdout=PIPE). what exactly happens after that i'm not sure. actually this process should have been dead by now! 23:43
lue what language are you using? (And also, what's coming through the pipe)
timotimo imgur.com/6iHwAPf 23:49
23:51 MikeFair_ joined
lue Hm. Can't say I know what's going on. I'm assuming the right half is what's in the pipe, right? (because `echo say 3 | perl6` runs say 3 in perl6, and that doesn't look like Perl 6) 23:52
timotimo that's what goes over the zeromq connections 23:55

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