»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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shinobicl rakudo: Date.^methods.say; 00:51
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«get-daycount new-from-daycount today truncated-to delta clone succ pred is-leap-year days-in-month daycount-from-ymd ymd-from-daycount day-of-month day-of-week week week-year week-number weekday-of-month day-of-year check-value check-date truncate-parts new WHICH g…
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diakopter FROGGS_: `hi 02:24
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stevan_ hello perl6ers! 02:50
jnthn: moritz: masak: are you guys going to be at YAPC::EU?
stevan_ is trying to decide if he should come to EU or not
also, how many of the p6ixers are planing to attend YAPC::NA? 02:56
diakopter jnthn plans to 03:01
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stevan_ excellent 03:18
swarley converted most of HLL and QRegex into a ruby parsing grammar.. Working on NQP/Grammar.pm now. 03:26
timotimo not long until rakudo can run on ruby as well! 03:27
swarley timotimo, I'm working on compiling NQP to YARV bytecode
Well I've just wasted a long tome 03:30
time*
timotimo oh, you are? wow. 03:31
i didn't even know! :)
yarv is "yet another ruby vm"?
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hulu masak: helo 03:32
lue Am I seeing that right? class Panda in lib/Panda.pm is passing more variables to self.bless than it has attributes. 03:34
timotimo did you look at Pies, too? 03:35
Pies has 4 more, with Panda's 5 attributes, it matches perfectly
lue oh, duh. (I have Pies.pm on screen too, just didn't think of it)
timotimo is it late at your place, too? ☺ 03:36
lue 19:35 right now.
so no :)
What's worse is, I figured out earlier that nextwith and nextsame were referring to Pies methods in Panda.resolve 03:37
timotimo :))
diakopter swarley: why wasted? 03:43
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TimToady grondilu: .chars and * mean the same thing there in .substr, as it happens, and * is less error prone, since it doesn't reference outside the substr again 04:19
swarley I lost track of what I wwas doing, and writing QAST for YARV turned into a NQP grammar in ruby
TimToady grondilu++ for the RC entry, btw 04:20
swarley You know, If I can correctly get this to work, NQP would be able to compile code that can access Ruby code 04:26
\o/
whoop
I wonder how I can add font-weight: 100000000000px; to "if" on that line.. 04:27
timotimo kind of makes me sad that there's only interop between perl6 and one of the languages, rather than perl6 and more than one other language
TimToady we have to replace Java or C# before people will be interested in that 04:28
timotimo do it like the north korea people: <strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong><strong>if</strong></strong></strong></strong></strong></strong></strong></strong>[...]</strong>
lue does absent in Pies::Project's State mean "not installed yet"? If so, L68-69 of Pies.pm is confusing me as to how it finds dependencies that need to be installed (unless I'm misinterpreting what the map statement's doing...) 04:29
timotimo is there a statement for "installed, but no longer in the ecosystem"? 04:30
bleh, i should really go to bed
lue Well, I've so far added a "marked for installation" state, but because I'm bumbling around in code I don't know well, it won't do anything useful yet. :) 04:32
timotimo what are you up to? 04:33
lue Right now, adding a thing which tells you everything that's about to be installed before installing. Which means rearranging the order panda does things. (I'm working in a fork btw, so I'm not breaking any main code) 04:34
timotimo that's cool :) 04:37
i wish you the best of luck! and good night to anyone whom it might concern ;)
lue I'd also like to give panda an update to new version of Perl 6 feature, but I have to be careful about that, as I can't just compile rakudo all the time. 04:38
good knight, timotimo o/ 04:39
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swarley what does this mean? $!name ? 05:01
lue now sees that the build order is figured completely separate from the dependency resolution 05:02
swarley has str $!name;
lue $!name is a private attribute in a class or role
TimToady swarley: that's a private attribute
swarley ah
so <sigil>! is private?
TimToady there is also a private attribute $!name lurking behind a public attribute of $.name, which is really an accessor for the private attribute
<sigil>! really means object-local storage, known only to the class 05:03
it's the absense of <sigi>. that makes it private from the standpoint of "you can't access it" 05:04
but all attributes have the ! form, even if they have a public accessor
well, a synthetic attribute would have only the accessor, I guess 05:05
but the point is someone from outside doesn't need to know whether $.name maps directly to $!name or to something else
this preserves the ability to change the implementation without changing the public API 05:06
lue oh, looks like build-order in Panda::Builder is the order to compile files *within* one module. nvm then.
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lue *headdesk* C<next> means next iteration of loop, *not* next statement in the code. That completely changes the meaning of things. 05:26
perl6-debug++ 05:27
swarley so, what is this 05:30
pir::escape__Ss
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lue that is a PIR opcode that you can use outside of PIR. The part after the __ describes its arguments and what it returns, but I don't know what they mean. 05:32
(I *think* s = takes a string and S = returns a string)
swarley Well I assumed all of that much 05:33
I was more interested in the escape 05:34
Sorry, my computer lost connection and I detached from my BNC, did anyone say anything about my question while I was gone? 05:40
TimToady nope
but we'd all like to escape PIR... :) 05:41
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TimToady moritz: not, p5 does other compile-time optimizations as well, like turning $a++ into ++$a when in void context, and bypassing nops in the peephole optimizer, and turning @foo[1] into a faster instruction 06:16
*no
it turns "and not" into "or", and such 06:18
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TimToady it can turn a copying sort into an inplace sort 06:24
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TimToady similarly can make @a = reverse @a into an inplace reverse 06:25
it will also optimize iterators and reversed iterators 06:27
and that's all just from the peephole optimizer 06:28
propagating void context down the tree also suppresses a lot of computation
and at least the propagation part is mostly compile-time, even if the suppression happens at run time 06:29
perhaps the most important compile-time optimization is to not copy stuff back and forth when you have a sequence of concats 06:37
so it's a lot more than just constant folding 06:38
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TimToady (was a question to nwc10 about p5 that I hijacked) 06:48
lue Finally got panda to pretty-print a list of dependencies, but now that's all it does. (I pushed it to my fork ICUC). Anyway, good ♞ #perl6 o/ 07:35
swarley bah.. The only only way to do this would would be at least a little slow.. I'm not quite sure how it actually reduces the bytecode down from it's intermediate representation.. 07:43
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pmurias swarley: you are not sure how QAST is turned into PIR? 08:30
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swarley No, I'm talking about ruby's ISEQ to YARV 08:31
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pmurias swarley: you could try generating ruby ;) 08:38
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pmurias swarley: or does generating bytecode give you more flexibility? 08:54
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eternaleye timotimo: For 'installed but no longer in the ecosystem', perhaps 'orphaned' (based on rpm's terminology)? OTOH, some places use that to refer to ENOMAINTAINER 09:18
The amusing option would be 'pining' 09:19
...On second thought, I *really* like 'pining' for that. 09:20
Because it's not dead.
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masak good forenoon, #perl6 10:01
hulu: helo
nwc10: I'm going to YAPC::EU. I know jnthn is, too. 10:03
jnthn morning o/ 10:06
masak: It was stevan_ who asked, not nwc10, I think :) 10:07
diakopter o/ 10:08
masak jnthn: oh! yes. 10:10
stevan_: ^^^^ 10:11
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masak so, I've been thinking. 10:18
FROGGS hi there
jnthn uh-oh
masak especially because of the historical overview lizmat gave yesterday abotu Perl 5 and Perl 6.
but also because of the (unexpectedly) positive feedback I got from my live demo yesterday. 10:19
it's like, I've been living in a little echo chamber of my own lately, not realizing how well we're doing on some counts with Perl 6, and how not-well we're doing with others.
so I'm drafting a blog post, and I'd like early feedback on it. any feedback, really. 10:20
here's the draft:
gist.github.com/43f95c5ba980dfee8cee
what I'm saying is in no way new.
it's just a distillation of what should be our focus in the next 3-4 years.
FROGGS jnthn: how can it be that nqp parses /$(1)/ as metachar:sym<nqpvar>($(1)), but under rakudo it will be treated as nqp's metachar:sym<$>($) and metachar:sym<( )>((1)) ? 10:22
since rakudo's metachar:sym<rakvar> is able to match it 10:23
it's a bit frustrating
jnthn FROGGS: Does one have a longer longest prefix than the other? 10:25
FROGGS what is a prefix?
the method name? or stuff like <?before ... 10:26
jnthn What's in the rule
The thing that determines what is called first is LTM 10:27
masak: While on threads there's not much spec progress, there's a lot of spec'd features that allow parallelism. 10:28
masak: That is to say, it's not like nobody has thought about it in the design at all.
FROGGS gist.github.com/63fd03de7f3dec132dc9 10:29
masak jnthn: oh. I consider that bit of the spec extremely slushy. 10:30
jnthn: on the level of "it would be nice if X (but no-one's tried this)"
FROGGS jnthn: <var> should be the longest token to match, no?
jnthn FROGGS: Calls to LANG don't participate 10:31
FROGGS: Thus the "before" stuff
FROGGS damnit
jnthn (in nqpvar)
FROGGS k
learning++
thank you
jnthn masak: At the level of "how do we start a thread", "how do we control degree of parallelism of a hyper", etc, it's very slushy. I just meant that >>+<< is already spec'd as parallelizable, feed operators are producer/consumer, the hyper/race context... 10:32
Even if we don't know the API to the lower level bits, we've various bits of declarative parallelism written into the spec. 10:34
masak jnthn: *nod*
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masak jnthn: I agree that those three things you mentioned are well-spec'd. I think it's still debatable whether people who will use parallelism in Perl 6 will rely mainly on those constructs. 10:35
jnthn masak: Well, it's not the 90s any more so we'd better have a better story than "well, you start a thread then..." :)
masak jnthn: full ACK. 10:36
diakopter HUP
masak we need the higher-level building blocks.
dalek p-jvm-prep: 02ad1da | (Gerhard R)++ | Makefile:
Fix name of setting rule in Makefile
p-jvm-prep: 34bd10f | jonathan++ | Makefile:
Merge pull request #11 from gerdr/master

Makefile fix
masak I'm just positing that it's hard to predict which ones will be popular/useful.
& 10:37
diakopter fg
jnthn masak: indeed 10:38
arnsholt jnthn: Unless you have any last minute comments, I'll merge my branch into master soonish 10:55
jnthn arnsholt: No, I'm happy with it. 10:59
arnsholt Excellent. Just gonna have breakfast first =) 11:00
jnthn :)
jnthn is mostly tied up with pre-Stockholm-trip errands 11:01
arnsholt Usually good to get those out of the way 11:04
More teaching next week?
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nwc10 moritz: also, constant folding isn't done by the peephole optimiser :-) 11:06
FROGGS jnthn: is the <?before already a token? or do I need to capture things inside?
nwc10 Perl 5 does it at op construction time. If you ask to build the binary op for +, and give the constructor a constant op for the left argument, and a constant for the right argument, you don't get back an add op. You get back a constant for the result 11:07
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jnthn FROGGS: Things in <?before ...>, provided they are themselves declarative, count as part of the declarative prefix for LTM 11:11
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jnthn nwc10: I guess that means you don't have the problem of post-declared overloads... :) 11:12
(we couldn't implement it like that in Perl 6 for that reason...) 11:13
nwc10 I didn't write it that way, and I'm not even aware of post-declared overloads :-)
jnthn arnsholt: This time a mix of teaching and workshop for a single company, rather than an open classroom session. 11:14
errand, bbiab
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moritz stevan_: I'm trying to convince my employer to send me to YAPC::EU. I think my chances are 80%. 11:19
TimToady, nwc10: thanks for the explanations 11:20
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arnsholt Gah. Updated bootstrap use the old REPR compose stuff, it seems 11:24
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arnsholt jnthn: Halp? 11:28
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timotimo good morning 11:40
ish :)
FROGGS morningish timotimo :o) 11:41
timotimo in my between sleep and wake state, i wondered how hard it would be to build something like ikiwiki. also, how useful it would be to write a piece of perl code that outputs the same thing as pygmentize, but uses the official (or even STD) perl6 grammar for more accuracy whenever you can afford to run an actual perl6 interpreter (with, i guess, the restricted setting, so that BEGIN blocks won't kill you) 11:43
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timotimo hm, would using different Actions prevent evil code from hurting me? 11:48
jnthn arnsholt: What's exactly wrong? Both branches did make bootstrap-files? 11:51
Separately?
arnsholt No, but since I last merged master, the bootstrap stuff has been updated, and it uses the intermediate REPR compose protocol it seems 11:53
jnthn Ah...
arnsholt I get the "get_pmc_keyed_str() not implemented in class 'ResizablePMCArray'" error
jnthn Ah, and the updated again version lives in your branch? 11:54
arnsholt No, I never updated the bootstrap files
Er, yes 11:55
jnthn Yes, but I mean the updated repr_compose code.
arnsholt Yeah, yeah
jnthn OK
arnsholt That's in my branch
(I misunderstood your question initially)
jnthn Maybe the best way is to comment out the repr_compose code in master, do make bootstrap-files to get rid of it so everything falls back to the old way. Then merge.
arnsholt Right. I'll try that 11:56
jnthn The bootstrap-files update I did was for unrelated reasons, probably to get some nqp::ops 11:57
arnsholt Aha 11:58
FROGGS timotimo: what is ikiwiki about? 12:00
timotimo FROGGS: it's a wiki engine that transforms markdown into html, at its most basic. it is usually backed by a VCS like git and most people deploy it with a cgi script that allows creating/editing/commenting. it has many neat plugins and special ikiwiki plugin syntax 12:05
timotimo just found out how to teach vim to treat $foo-bar as one keyword: set the iskeyword string to include -, too
and that's all there is to it :) 12:06
FROGGS I like the wikimedia wiki... we use it at work too 12:07
jnthn Add ' too ;)
timotimo ah, it's already in the perl6.vim ftplugin in the vim-perl repo
FROGGS I should fiddle with the scite language files some day
timotimo r: my $foo-bar'jnthn' = 10;
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/Pv1pJtSQf0:1␤------> my $foo-bar'jnthn⏏' = 10;␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤ constraint␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ …
timotimo ah, well, not at the end obviously
r: my $foo-bar'jnthn = 10; 12:08
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: ( no output )
FROGGS right
timotimo i don't really think the iskeyword string encodes that difference, though
arnsholt jnthn: Thanks for the help. Looks like things are back on track
jnthn \o/
arnsholt Or not. Hmm
FROGGS r: my $o-'O'-o = "yay" 12:09
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/Eb7OZh7JxM:1␤------> my $o-'O'-o =⏏ "yay"␤»
jnthn /o\
FROGGS ohh
r: my $o-o'O'o-o = "yay"
jnthn std: my $o-'O'-o = "yay"
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p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: ( no output ) 12:09
std 7deb9d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead at /tmp/QCfQMr8jkm line 1:␤------> my $o-'O'-o ⏏= "yay"␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 43m␤»
jnthn hm, I thought STD may do a better error :)
FROGGS but it is cool to have ' too
FROGGS .oO( class Cat { * }; class Cat's-Ball { * } ) 12:10
jnthn tries to read that class name the innocent way 12:11
FROGGS hehe 12:12
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FROGGS jnthn: is there a trick to debug LTM? 12:26
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hulu my @scores = 'Ana' => 8, 'Dave' => 6, 'Charlie' => 4, 'Beth' => 4; why not %scores 12:27
timotimo well, what you have there is an ordered list of pairs 12:28
a hash wouldn't be ordered, would it?
r: my @scores = 'Ana' => 8, 'Dave' => 6, 'Charlie' => 4, 'Beth' => 4; say @scores.perl; say @scores.hash.perl 12:30
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«Array.new("Ana" => 8, "Dave" => 6, "Charlie" => 4, "Beth" => 4)␤("Ana" => 8, "Dave" => 6, "Charlie" => 4, "Beth" => 4).hash␤»
jnthn Hash order is not reliable,no.
hulu timotimo: what's means of "Perl 6’s precedence rules state that the in x => operator binds its arguments more tightly than the in x , operator, which in turn binds more tightly than the = assignment operator."
jnthn FROGGS: Not really...you could try writing a small grammar with the kinds of things you're trying to do in and see how it works.
FROGGS: Grammars written in Rakudo that do LTM use the same engine as NQP uses for the Perl 6 grammar itself. 12:31
timotimo hulu: it means that if you write something like $x = "foo" => 1, "bar" => 2 it will be parenthesized like this: ($x) = (("foo" => 1), ("bar" => 2)) 12:32
hulu 优先级
timotimo compare that with regular maths. = is like =, => is like * and , is like +
$x = "foo" * 1 + "bar" * 2 ← same "structure" 12:33
hulu i c
thx
timotimo np :)
arnsholt jnthn: Think I understood what I was actually supposed to do this time around 12:34
Making sure Rakudo isn't broken now
Which, in fact, it is 12:37
timotimo moritz: in 5-to-6, it says "The answer is that Rakudo doesn't do longest token matching yet, but matches sequentially." in the XML example, that could use an update ;) 12:41
(am i just stating the obvious?)
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jnthn gotta head up to Stockholm & 12:49
hulu timotimo: thx 12:51
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masak hulu: yes, 优先级 is "precedence". which thing gets evaluated first. 13:01
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sjn masak: How's the Ada room? :) 13:05
timotimo gentlemen, you can't code in here, this is the programming room! 13:08
sjn timotimo: surely a scripted response, if I ever heard one! :) 13:11
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moritz timotimo: updated 13:24
good afternoon, #perl6
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timotimo cool, moritz :) 13:24
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timotimo so, i've asked in #pypy if python bytecode would be a sensible target for nqp. fijal said it'd be easier to write a whole new VM in rpython than to try to shoehorn perl6 into python bytecode 13:47
he also says when we target the jvm, we'll have to abstract away so much of the perl6 semantics, that we're basically "compiling to a garbage collected C" and performance will suck
moritz garbage collected C is perfect. 13:48
shachaf I hear the JVM is pretty awful as a compilation target for things that aren't Java.
timotimo is really not the right person to do that discussion 13:49
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fijal hi 13:53
timotimo there he is :)
moritz: do you know enough about nqp-jvm and parrot to explain/argue properly? i sure don't.
and at just that moment, my modem decides to go belly-up 13:55
so, fijal, your argument is that jvm has the absolute wrong semantics, so that mapping perl6 to jvm is a dumb idea and performance will suffer to a ridiculous degree, right? 13:56
fijal: and that it would be easier to create a new, custom VM to run perl6 that uses, for example, pypys tracing jit generator technology to get good performance 13:57
moritz timotimo: not really
(I don't really know enought about nqp-jvm)
fijal it's definitely easier than on top of JVM 13:58
or comparabl;e
but it'll run faster
Su-Shee well ruby and python managed to put themselves onto the jvm and clojure took it even further so I don't see why Perl6 can't do it.
moritz fwiw we tried the approach with our own VM (parrot)
and it kinda works, but not fast
arnsholt From what jnthn has blogged, JVM doesn't seem to be too much trouble so far
moritz no good JIT compiler, for example 13:59
fijal Su-Shee: well
Su-Shee: pypy is massively faster
Su-Shee: if you care
Su-Shee I totally don't care. I want the clojure concept which means you have your favorite language AND can incoporate all kinds of existing java libraries which is insanely practical.. so speed? yeah, later. 14:00
arnsholt From a pub conversation with jnthn I think he's at least in partial agreement that the best of all worlds would be a VM specifically tuned for Perl 6 and its special things 14:01
But making a VM, including proper fast GC, JIT compilation and all the bells and whistles is a massive, massive undertaking
timotimo (except with pypy you get the GC and JIT for free) 14:02
spider-mario how hard do you think it would be to use JNI to make Perl 5 modules available to Perl 6-on-JVM?
arnsholt spider-mario: Good question. There was a module that embedded a Perl 5 in Parrot, but can't remember the name off hand 14:03
moritz blizkost
arnsholt Right, blizkost
fijal arnsholt: pypy is not python-specific
that'\s a difference
arnsholt I know pypy isn't Python specific
fijal Su-Shee: JVM libraries kinda suck, but yeah
arnsholt How much typing does pypy do?
fijal arnsholt: as in? 14:04
spider-mario well, JVM libraries are often designed for Java
Su-Shee fijal: not having any sucks even more ;) 14:05
fijal Su-Shee: sure
arnsholt fijal: Types of the "this variable is of type X" kind
moritz static type information that the optimizer can use
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fijal arnsholt: it happens automatically 14:06
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timotimo no type annotations are written, only assertions. the whole program is globally type-inferred 14:06
arnsholt Cause Python isn't really typed as such, isn't it?
fijal arnsholt: you don't leave hints in the interpreter
timotimo: stop confusing people ok?
timotimo i'll shut up
fijal arnsholt: so you write an interpreter in RPython (a language)
that part is statically typed
arnsholt Right 14:07
fijal just like Java
however, the program you're interpreting is not statically typed at all
but the JIT is able to pick up the types
(and other information)
arnsholt I see
fijal pretty much the same as JVM will do escape analysis 14:08
except we are obviously more geared towards the use cases that are more common in writing interpreters
so we'll have the frame support that JVM lacks
does perl6 have frame support?
like "give me all local variables"
or so?
masak sjn: Ada room was an interesting mixture of mundane and fascinating. :) 14:09
moritz fijal: yes
you can introspect lexical pads
masak I'm battery-bound here, but I have to dump a few things here from the "What's new in Ada 2012" talk :)
fijal moritz: that kills JVM performance
because you cannot prove it does not escape usually
masak first, nice to see that Ada is stealing the junction syntax for or junctions. (in a very delimited, statically-desugarable context, but still.)
(also, this has happened before. Java 7 does the same for exceptions, IIRC) 14:10
moritz fijal: well, in general lexicals have to be compiled to heap objects
masak second, there is a thing that I would like Perl 6 to steal from Ada: subtype defaults. I hadn't really realized how much I had missed this.
moritz (because of closures etc.)
masak at first opportunity, I will spec subtype defaults. feel free to protest loudly before or after. I believe it will be a definite improvement. 14:11
semantically, unassigned variables and unbound parameters of a subtype will get the default.
arnsholt fijal: It's a shame jnthn isn't here. He's the one who actually knows these aspects of the compiler the best 14:12
masak proposal: 'subset Odd of Int where { $_ % 2 } default 1'
I also propose that defaults be optional, and that the default default be the default of the parent type. 14:13
fijal arnsholt: ok, you can find me on #pypy if you want
timotimo fijal: assuming someone were to write a VM using rpython so that nqp could translate rakudo to that VM and rakudo could emit that-vm-bytecode, would the jit still be able to get good performance, or would most of the compiler have to be in rpython, too?
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masak the only thing I'm not sure of is whether to die at parse time if the default is not provided and the default default doesn't comply -- like with Odd above. 14:13
moritz masak: on a related topic, I once tried to implement $var = Nil resetting to the default. In the end the problem was that we don't store the default value, and some variables are typed Mu but default to Any 14:14
fijal timotimo: jit does not particularly care where did you take your bytecode from
timotimo: obviously if the parser and compiler is in perl too, you need more time to compile stuff
but of course you can serialize it too
masak moritz: I'm too unfocused to analyze these things right now. consider me in dump mode, and I'll contemplate later. ;)
moritz: but yes, that's interesting to hear. 14:15
moritz masak: so we might need to store some defaults somewhere. But I'm not sure if it's per container or per type
timotimo well, it's in nqp, so maybe nqp could be translated into rpython-compliant python bytecode?
masak listening to the Ada talk, it was clear to me that we are missing defaults on subtypes.
also, an interesting mini-insight on pre/postconditions: if a precondition fails, it's someone else's fault -- the user's or some consumer library's. if a postcondition fails, it's your fault. 14:16
obvious but a nice way to phrase it.
it shows how they're kinda different beasts.
moritz that's well known in the DBC community :-)
masak suspected that :)
fijal timotimo: what's rpython-compliant python bytecode? 14:17
timotimo: why do you insist on python bytecode?
how is compiling anything to python bytecode easier than implementing it?
I fail to understand that
timotimo you're right, there would still have to be the other VM, too.
the thought was to put the resulting code into the rpython translation toolchain, too 14:18
fijal why would you do that?
I think you're confusing various layers
timotimo i probably am
fijal you write code in RPython that interprets perl
this is simpler than you write a compiler from perl to JVM
or at least not worse 14:19
yes, you have to make a bytecode format, but it's nothing special
this is not the hard part
the hard part is getting all the details of the semantics right
timotimo the format itself is less the problem than what bytecodes there should be and what they do
yes
fijal and it's easier with interpreter than compiler
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fijal especially if the language was designed with the interpreter in mind 14:20
masak so, I've been to a Java talk, a Smalltalk talk, an Ada talk, and now I'm waiting for a SpiderMonkey talk. I feel very eclectic today. ;)
fijal masak: :) 14:21
masak: what is it?
tadzik eclanguic
masak fijal: I'm at FOSDEM.
fijal: dictionary.com says "eclectic" means "selecting or choosing from various sources" 14:22
(just like Perl) :P
timotimo i interpreted it as "what spidermonkey talk are you going to attend"
masak it's the same root as for "select" and "elect".
timotimo: oh!
fijal masak: cool, I wish I was there 14:23
masak it's about SpiderMonkey GC in Firefox.
fijal masak: ask them if they managed to fix the leak if you have a cycle between JS and DOM objects
(evil laugh)
masak dude, that was IE6 :P
fijal masak: no, chrome was leaking such stuff recently 14:24
and ffox
masak really? do you have an URL to back that up?
that sounds awful.
fijal well, how do you deal with it?
you have reference-counted C++ objects
masak (and I'd very much like to troll the speaker that way) :)
fijal and a real GC in the JS
moritz GC
masak fijal: surely Firefox doesn't do refcounting still?
tadzik well, the talk is about GC, so... 14:25
masak or do you mean the DOM needs to do refcounting?
fijal masak: in C++?
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masak still feels this would be so much easier to talk about with an URL to the incident 14:25
a URL* 14:26
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fijal masak: you can just ask him what happens if you have a reference to a DOM object from JS that references back to JS object 14:26
masak I found this: stackoverflow.com/questions/6478864...in-firefox
fijal: ok. will do.
fijal it's kinda hard to find a reference
timotimo fijal: tell me if i'm confusing layers again: if i were to write a VM using rpython and have NQP target that VM, would that be sensible performance-wise? this way, a rakudo could be compiled down to that VM at least.
fijal timotimo: what's NQP? 14:27
tadzik -_-
timotimo it's kind of rpython-but-perl6
simpler syntax, fewer built-ins, only := (binding) instead of = (assignment)
fijal as in, is it statically typed perl or so?
masak oh, this resource looks better: stackoverflow.com/questions/3750797...javascript
timotimo not really 14:28
masak fijal: it's a bootstrapping subset of Perl 6.
fijal: desugared lowish-level base components to build a Perl 6 compiler.
fijal stackoverflow.com/questions/1009261...ence-issue
masak:
masak thank you. :?
:>
fijal timotimo: you can compile it to the VM of your choice, yeah 14:29
especially if it helps you bootstrap
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masak fijal: that makes the issue much clearer. now I can troll with good conscience :) 14:29
timotimo oh, that's probably what you meant with "focus on the interpreter" all the time
to use an existing compiler to target that VM+interpreter 14:30
fijal timotimo: we actually moved pieces of pypy source code from RPython to Python
because it can be specialized better
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fijal masak: so IE6 is bad because it never does it 14:30
timotimo i suppose in my head there was a bit of left-over concepts from when "interpreter" means "source code goes in, behavior comes out", rather than "bytecode goes in, behavior comes out"
fijal masak: while chrome/ffox keeps it as long as you keep the website open 14:31
which is still bad, I keep my gmail open whole day
masak fijal: right.
fijal timotimo: oh ok
masak I had no idea things are still this bad. for shame, browsers.
fijal masak: I like trolling those people because they're so full of themselves and they have an awesome PR
masak ok, battery low &
timotimo ciao masak! 14:32
fijal if you ask a random dude, v8 is definitely by far the fastest thing
timotimo fijal: surely that problem would be better using a browser implemented completely in javascript, no?
fijal timotimo: that precise one, yes
arnsholt An all-JS browser would have to be careful to not let website JS modify the browser state, though 14:33
tadzik and files on the filesystem, for example 14:34
timotimo you should be able to handle that
an interpreter/app level divide should be doable
tadzik as in, a JS browser must be able to read and write stuff to disk
and you can end up with funny situation, like on the KIndle
timotimo well, you can certainly do that with node.js!
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timotimo anyway, i know 0 about VM/interpreter design. 14:36
it would certainly be better if someone with lots of experience with parrot came up with a more fitting VM design for perl6 14:39
or maybe we'll just wait and see how potion turns out.
*or* implement the backend for potion and just steal potion bytecode + semantics and implement that with rpython 14:40
endless possibilities are endless.
hell, even implementing a parrot bytecode compatible VM could give performance improvements when using rpython. who knows? 14:42
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moritz nqp: nqp::say(nqp::isinvokable(sub () { }) ) 14:58
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
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masak ok, back up. found an outlet :) 15:00
I did troll the speaker. he mumbled that they had some thing that would shuttle information from the GC to the C++ refcounter.
didn't sound ideal.
moritz so, has the problem been solved? 15:01
masak more like subdued or ameliorated, seemedlike.
after this talk, I'm left with this thought: why the heck do we GC on the process level? why not just institute an OS-wide GC, and have a good API into it?
moritz loose coupling 15:02
masak yeah, that's another thing. Firefox now has write barriers all over the place.
that's hardly loose coupling. the whole application has to dance according to the music of the GC. 15:03
geekosaur because an OS-wide GC forces everything to use the same GC strategy, when GC is unlikely to be one size fits all. there's a paper out there which examined an OS-wide GC relative to the JVM, IRC
masak hrm, good point. 15:04
moritz masak: there are very few cross-process pointers, so there's not much gain in having a cross-process GC
also virtual memory makes such stuff decidedly non-trivial
geekosaur and they were able to tune it so it worked about as well as the current behavior, but it took some work because even just considering the JVM different machines may have different needs
fijal masak: we have the same 15:06
masak: but we don't write it by hand
masak: the problem is C++ is too low level
masak *nod* 15:07
any time you leave the cozy GC'd world of your scripting language to bridge/interface with C or C++, I guess you run into this. 15:08
fijal well
bridge/interface is fine
because there are well defined semantics
of C
the problem is if you *write* your stuff in C
you end up needing to have a write barrier everywhere
it's a nightmare
masak aye.
cf Parrot.
I'm currently in love with RIAA and C#'s IDisposable/using pattern.
fijal RIAA is good 15:09
but solves 90% of the problem
10% is still ugly
masak granted.
but as percentages go, 90% is pretty good going.
fijal meh
masak I'm saying it's something to consider.
fijal masak: you know how we do it?
masak not really.
we currently do it with LEAVE, and mumble about macros to fold even those in. 15:10
fijal we insert write barriers programatically
while compiling RPython
masak makes sense.
fijal essentially an equivalent of a non-sucky GCC plugin
masak then you just need to get the codegen right :)
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fijal this is the whole reason of RPython existance 15:10
yeah
but there is one place
which is maybe hard, but limited in size
not a bit everywhere
it's much easier to reason about
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masak aye. 15:11
fijal I'm too dumb to remember to put write barrier everywhere
masak "keep things together that belong together."
fijal it's already hard enough in tests for the insertion :)
masak keeping single concerns from being scattered -- one of the mantras of AOP :)
fijal we have this and a handcoded assembler fast path
which is a bit ugly I agree
but very hard to do better 15:12
masak *nod*
fijal (wb ends up being 2-3 instructions in the good case)
masak nice.
fijal the same way malloc ends up being <1 cycle on average
timotimo: ok, I think I understand this now 15:17
timotimo: you would want an NQP interpreter on top of RPython 15:18
should be even relatively trivial to pull off
timotimo i think the same bytecode that's used for the nqp interpreter must also be able to do all the things that rakudo-perl6 would want to emit, though, but i'm not quite sure :( 15:22
masak: can you help lift my confusion?
fijal: in what way do you consider it "relatively trivial"? 15:24
fijal as in, much easier than compiling to JVM
or implementing in C
since you have quite a few cool data structures etc.
(like strings!)
timotimo i understand why it would be easier to do than C :) 15:25
masak timotimo: yes, basically Perl 6 doesn't do anything fundamentally new compared to nqp on the QAST level. 15:26
timotimo well, that's a relief
masak: you've got some insight into QAST. how complicated does a theoretical new just-for-perl6 VM have to become to be able to host nqp effectively? 15:27
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masak I'm not sure what you're asking. 15:30
I've touched QAST, yes. it seems a nice technology. 15:31
nqp doesn't have very high demands on the VM, really.
that's one of the nice things about it.
of course, things like stack-based or register-based will affect how it's all implemented.
timotimo i have absolutely no frame of reference in which to evaluate "no very high demands"
masak what I mean is that nqp is quite a small language, with not too high demands on the VM. 15:32
time to down scope again. gotta leave this room :)
&
timotimo have fun! :)
timotimo imagines masak as a little submarine
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moritz has a too vivid mental image of masak as a person to imagine masak a submarine 15:39
but I can easily imagine a small submarines where all the masak clones travel together
timotimo so, would the hypothetical vm have to supply lexical mechanisms? closures closing over things? classes? multiple dispatch? type checking? signature binding? tuples/lists/strings/hashes? 15:41
fijal timotimo: who else? 15:42
timotimo who else does what?
moritz well, it's possible for the generated code (and not the VM) to do that 15:43
timotimo fijal hinted that sometimes it's better for the generated code to do that when using rpython
so, is going with the "bare minimum" a good choice? it would probably make the qast-hypoVM backend quite a bit bigger, isn't that right? 15:44
fijal timotimo: who else implements that?
timotimo oh, you meant my list of features? i don't really know 15:45
fijal someone has to
timotimo uh, i think i don't understand what you mean 15:46
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fijal who implements a tuple? 15:47
yuo have to write it at some point
timotimo of course. the VM's interpreter would have to, i imagine
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timotimo same as python, it has a create_tuple bytecode. i thought of that kind of thing 15:47
fijal well
that's just a bytecode
there is a W_TupleObject 15:48
which is the actual implementation
timotimo: I suggest you walk around example_interpreter on the pypy's bitbucket website
timotimo i'll have a look
benabik You don't have to have create_tuple. You can have 'new Tuple' instead.
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fijal yeah whatever 15:49
FROGGS yay, $(<code>) within regexes works now \o/
timotimo right. all you need is a lambda and then you can make cons^H^H^H^Hintegers and cons cells 15:50
bleh. my internet connection is getting flaky
benabik would not want to create REPRs in the pure lambda calculus. 15:51
timotimo fijal: it does seem somewhat simple, yes 15:56
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timotimo FROGGS: what does that do? 16:07
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FROGGS nr: sub abc($x) { $x * 2 - 1 }; say "1234" ~~ /$(abc("12").substr(1))/ 16:13
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name␤at /tmp/D_wI2jx_SH:1␤------> abc($x) { $x * 2 - 1 }; say "1234" ~~ /$⏏(abc("12").substr(1))/␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix …
..niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«#<match from(2) to(3) text(3) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
FROGGS it is a contextualizer
nr: sub abc($x) { $x * 2 - 1 }; say "1234" ~~ /$( abc("12") )/
p6eval niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«#<match from(1) to(3) text(23) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
..rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
FROGGS need to clean up, but then I can push to nom 16:14
n: say "abcd" ~~ / \w ** $( 1+1 ) / 16:15
p6eval niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Unsupported use of atom ** $( 1+1 ) as separator; nowadays please use atom+ % $( 1+1 ) at /tmp/sFZNl1U74R line 1:␤------> say "abcd" ~~ / \w ** $( 1+1 )⏏ /␤␤#<match from(0) to(1) text(a) pos([].list) named({}.ha…
FROGGS hmmm, dunno I this is supposed to work
std: say "abcd" ~~ / \w ** $( 1+1 ) / 16:16
p6eval std 7deb9d7: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Unsupported use of atom ** $( 1+1 ) as separator; nowadays please use atom +% $( 1+1 ) at /tmp/uWQaSi4GGr line 1:␤------> say "abcd" ~~ / \w ** $( 1+1 ) ⏏/␤ok 00:00 44m␤»
timotimo what? :) 16:17
FROGGS you can put variables inside a regex, and it will match
nr: my $x = "cd"; say "abcd" ~~ /$x/
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«｢cd｣␤␤»
..niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«#<match from(2) to(4) text(cd) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
FROGGS but to insert code there, you need to wrap it inside <{ }> or $( ) 16:18
Celelibi I suppose that the C written modules are not compatible at all between perl5 and perl6. Right?
timotimo oh okay
FROGGS Celelibi: right, even if you could pure perl5 modules directly atm, perlxs modules wont work 16:20
Celelibi k
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FROGGS there is NativeCall and Inline::C for that reason (to be able to port them) 16:20
timotimo FROGGS: good work :) 16:22
FROGGS timotimo: thanks 16:24
dunno what exactly you mean tbh 16:25
timotimo to be honest
FROGGS TimToady: is that supposed to work? say "abcd" ~~ / \w ** <{ 1+1 }> / or say "abcd" ~~ / \w ** $( 1+1 ) / 16:26
timotimo: "good work" <-- what do you mean? 16:27
timotimo it's good that you did that :) 16:29
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FROGGS k :o) 16:35
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nwc10 is the levenshtein code that's tweaked to run under NQP-JVM available anywhere? 17:04
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pmurias timotimo: re creating yet another custom VM, I think it would be better to focus effort on existing nqp backends then create yet another one 17:19
timotimo nwc10: it was a literal 1:1 copy of the levenshtein sub from World.pm in rakudo 17:21
the only changes were to turn nqp::join into ~ and to turn the <= into < for the switch-letters code at the bottom
pmurias: the pypy tracing jit and pluggable GC technology is darn nice, though. 17:25
swarley Alright, just finished the Nodes for YARV QAST 17:27
pmurias swarley: do you have that commited somewhere? 17:29
swarley No, but it's pretty much the same as nqp-jvm's
Except without the opcodes
And it uses a YARV iseq skeleton subroutine at the bottom 17:30
which should just be a constant now that i think about it
well, does nqp/perl6 have something like dup in ruby? 17:31
Duplicates the object so that you don't modify the original
pmurias check how nqp::clone works 17:32
* checks
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pmurias swarley: there is pir::repr_clone__PP($obj) 17:37
swarley: what do you want to clone?
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TimToady nqp: say(42.WHAT); say((42 but Real).WHAT) 17:38
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "say((42 bu"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 13207 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:4680) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤»
TimToady I guess nqp doesn't do "but"?
masak correct. 17:39
nwc10 Mmm, that's interesting. I get different answers when running under NQP and NQP-JVM 17:40
pmurias swarley: once you have something (semi) working I would be very interested at look at your code to see what approach are you using ;) 17:41
swarley No, I don't really have anything working yet, I'm working on setting up the toplevel node right now. If I declare a nqp::hash() can I access it like a normal p6 hash, or do I use nqp methods? 17:44
pmurias you mean my $foo := nqp::hash()? 17:45
swarley yes 17:46
pmurias nqp: my $foo := nqp::hash();$foo<bar> := 123;say($foo<bar>);
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«123␤»
swarley oh good
pmurias swarley: have you seen t/nqp in the nqp repo? 17:47
swarley I haven't looked at it really
pmurias it can be used for examples of what's valid in nqp ;) 17:50
swarley I'll give the Nodes.nqp file out once I've finished RAST::Root 17:53
But like I said, I basically retyped jnthn's Nodes.nqp 17:54
RAST::Root is the first thing I've really had to code myself
but then again, after retyping everything, i believe there are only a few ways to do what was done 17:55
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jnthn o/ from Stockholm 18:09
timotimo hey jnthn
arnsholt \o
timotimo i bugged fijal from the pypy team to come over and rant about jvm a bit, hope you'll enjoy the backlog :)
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jnthn Yes, I kinda followed. 18:11
From the irclog on the train :)
timotimo oh, OK
jnthn I think anybody considering porting NQP needs to remember that this involves (a) 6model, (b) the bounded serialization stuff, and (c) the grammar engine. :) 18:12
timotimo i was afraid of that, especially the grammar engine part. 18:13
arnsholt I seem to recall a conversation from the Oslo hackathon where you said something to the effect that Perl 6 ideally wants a VM with a bit less typing than JVM/CLR, but more than Perl/Python usually operate with
That right?
18:13 swarley| left
jnthn arnsholt: Something like. Really it boils down to, "understands 6model". 18:13
arnsholt True, true
stevan_ jnthn: howdy
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benabik has pondered welding together 6model + libgc + llvm. 18:14
benabik in his copious spare time... :-/
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stevan_ jnthn: I recall at one point looking at an NQP implementation of 6model, but I can't seem to find it (at least not in the NQP repo), can you point me to the right place (assuming it still exists)? 18:14
arnsholt The current NQP 6model is mostly in C, I think
src/6model/* 18:15
moritz it's teh metamodel that's written in NQP
stevan_ yeah, thats what I found, but I know I saw one in NQP at one point when I was starting on the p5-mop project
moritz: yeah, that :)
moritz rakudo's metamodel is in src/Perl6/Metamodel/*.pm 18:16
in the rakudo repo. obviously :-)
stevan_ ah, thanks
was looking in the entirely wrong place :)
moritz and NQP's metamodel (which is much simpler) is in the nqp repo in src/how/*.pm
jnthn stevan_: src/how/ in the NQP repo
moritz where "how" stands for "higher order workings" or so :-) 18:17
jnthn stevan_: The very core bootstrap is done in C (or Java on the JVM)
stevan_ k
jnthn stevan_: Where "the very core" is...very primitive. :)
pmurias or js on nqp-js (which is currently bitrotten) ;)
jnthn src/how/ is where we then implement classes and roles.
pmurias: You'll be glad to know that src/how/ is just about free of pir:: these days :) 18:18
pmurias: Gimme another week or so and it'll be free of the v-table stuff too.
OK, I should go join a copule of cow orkers for dinner... :)
be back later on o/
arnsholt jnthn: Speaking of NQP, I failed at fixing the bootstrap stuff. I got NQP compiling, but got some weird failure in Rakudo instead 18:19
moritz \o
arnsholt I'll give it another whack tomorrow
benabik
.oO( How do you ork a cow? )
pmurias jnthn: nice, I'll get to work on nqp-js in a week or so after my exams end 18:20
nwc10 jnthn: NQP-JVM bug: 18:21
$ nqp nqp-jvm-cc.nqp -e 'nqp::say(nqp::substr("ABC", 2, 1));'
output is just a newline
not C
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nwc10 jnthn: Fix, I believe: pasta.test-smoke.org/429 18:38
timotimo: I think you had to replace <= with < due to a bug in substr3 in Ops.java 18:39
timotimo not quite 18:41
it was a bug in my code that was obscured by how substr3 works
nwc10 OK, I tried it with < and got a Java exception. Screenfuls about (I think) stack exhausted 18:42
I think nqp::substr is buggy. I think I've fixed it locally.
With that, I can run with <= 18:43
but, if it's acutally a bug in your code, that's sort of interesting
but it's nice, as it found a bug in the JVM bootstrap code
timotimo it was a thinko i believe
feel free to double check 18:44
moritz if you get "javac: invalid source release: 1.7" on debian wheezy, install openjdk-7-jre and run update-alternatives --config javac and configure it to use the openjdk-7 one
timotimo iirc i off by one'd that part 18:46
moritz nqp nqp-jvm-cc.nqp --setting=NULL --target=classfile --output=nqp-mo.class nqp-src/nqp-mo.pm
Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsupportedClassVersionError: org/perl6/nqp/jast2bc/JASTToJVMBytecode : Unsupported major.minor version 51.0
grrr
masak nwc10: nice catch. 18:50
nwc10 I hope I'm correct. 18:51
masak nwc10: my first thought was that Java's .substring takes and 'end' parameter, not a 'length' parameter. but that doesn't seem to be the cause, given your fix.
an*
nwc10 And I utterly slack, in that I didn't write (more) tests
masak ;)
nwc10 The fine documentation at docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/j...,%20int%29 says The substring begins at the specified beginIndex and extends to the character at index endIndex - 1. Thus the length of the substring is endIndex-beginIndex. 18:54
masak aye.
that was what I was referring to.
whereas in Perl, we do $start, $length
moritz I think I have implemented Perl 6 substr (or parts of it) at least twice, and usually had an offby1 bug somewhere 18:57
masak .oO( "offby1 bu" ) 18:58
benabik "offby1 bug\0" ? 18:59
huf "offby2 bug" and repeat ad Inf
moritz though I should add that the test suite usually caught them before I committed them 19:02
swarley nqp: my @ary = ["foo","bar","baz"]; say(nqp::push(ary, "foobarbaz")) 19:03
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Assignment ("=") not supported in NQP, use ":=" instead at line 2, near " [\"foo\",\"b"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 13207 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:4680) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤»
swarley nqp: my @ary := ["foo","bar","baz"]; say(nqp::push(ary, "foobarbaz"))
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«push_pmc() not implemented in class 'NQPMu'␤current instr.: '' pc 107 ((file unknown):62) (/tmp/nN3E9L6AVT:1)␤»
swarley nqp: my @ary := ["foo","bar","baz"]; say(nqp::push(@ary, "foobarbaz"))
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«4␤»
swarley all sorts of typos
masak swarley: you can make private experiments with p6eval by using /msg
swarley Yeah, I just expected it to be a quick one 19:05
I would have queried it otherwise
moritz happens to me too, occasionally 19:09
masak too
moritz std: my ::&a &a 19:11
p6eval std 7deb9d7: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 45m␤»
moritz doesn't even want to know how that's parsed
swarley o-o 19:12
what the hell is that supposed to be
std: say "foo" 19:13
p6eval std 7deb9d7: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
19:13 Vlavv left
moritz std just parses 19:13
swarley oh
masak moritz: it's not so strange. you can post-declare & vars (and subs).
which is what you're doing there. 19:14
r: &foo(); sub foo { say "OH HAI" }
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
moritz but aren't that two terms in a row?
masak no, the first one is a type, methinks.
moritz unless the ::&a is somhow parsed as a type constraint
masak aye.
that's how I read it :)
moritz std: my ::&a $foo;
p6eval std 7deb9d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/KtH3T7dr8a line 1:␤------> my ::&a ⏏$foo;␤ expecting any of:␤ constraint␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infixed function␤ initializer␤ statement modifier loop␤ trait␤Parse
..failed␤FAILED 00:00 45m␤…
masak and since you never run the thing, you don't get into trouble for it ;)
hm. 19:15
but there you didn't declare &a...
moritz if it were a type, that would work for any variable
masak std: my &a; my ::&a $foo
p6eval std 7deb9d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Illegal redeclaration of routine 'a' (see line 1) at /tmp/Vdu3MPTJq_ line 1:␤------> my &a; my ::&a⏏ $foo␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/Vdu3MPTJq_ line 1:␤------> my &a; my ::&a ⏏$foo␤ expecting any…
masak hrm.
maybe it acts as a type capture...?
in which case I'd expect a redeclaration error from STD.
moritz and I'd expect it work with a $-variable too 19:16
masak *nod* 19:17
something is rotten in the STD of Denmark.
swarley nqp: say(qw[foo bar]); 19:20
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "say(qw[foo"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 13207 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:4680) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤»
flussence rn: sub a { b }; sub b { warn 'c' }; my $*ERR = Nil; say a(); 19:21
p6eval niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«c␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1287 (warn @ 5) ␤ at /tmp/36cBSGbmYV line 1 (b @ 4) ␤ at /tmp/36cBSGbmYV line 1 (a @ 4) ␤ at /tmp/36cBSGbmYV line 1 (mainline @ 6) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4218 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /ho…
..rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«c in sub b at /tmp/ZnzWwyF4He:1␤␤0␤»
flussence I want to screw around with $*ERR lexically but it won't let me :(
swarley nqp: say(< a b >)
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«2␤»
swarley oh alright
What is the difference between +< ... > and < ... ? 19:22
?
err < ... >
because in the tests i see 19:24
ok( < a > eq 'a', 'spaces around individual element stripped');
ok( +< a b > == 2, 'angle quotes correctly produce list');
moritz the + forces numeric context
just like
masak <a> is just a weird way to write a string 'a'.
pmurias nqp: my $a := <foo bar baz>;say($a[1]); 19:25
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«bar␤»
moritz r: my @a = 'a', 'b', 'c'; say +@a
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«3␤»
masak <a b>, however, is a list of strings.
r: say <a b>.^name
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«Parcel␤»
masak or a Parcel, whaddevuh.
swarley o-o '^'?
moritz .^method calls a method on a meta class
pmurias meta class instance 19:26
swarley Oh
masak .^methods, even
swarley Also, does < > interpolate?
masak no.
<< >> does
moritz nr: say so any(1,2) ~~ Int
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6, niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«False␤»
swarley alright
masak just like with ' and ", or q[] and qq[]
strangely consistent ;)
swarley Is it better to use the guillettes or the "texas" version? 19:27
err, sorry I may be using the wrong word
􏿽xAB􏿽xBB
Those
moritz it's mostly a matter of style and keyboard configuration
.u »
phenny U+00BB RIGHT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK (»)
19:27 cognominal__ left
masak swarley: "better" is ill-defined in your question. 19:28
moritz n: say (1|2).Str ~~ Str 19:29
p6eval niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak dinner & 19:31
swarley left pointing guillemet
that's what it's called
alright
Well, by better I mean, which is prefered style wise
masak how do you mean? :) 19:32
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masak who's doing the preferring here? 19:32
swarley I suppose you all, since if something breaks i'll be crying somewhere and it seems that no one else but you all can help ;p
japhb swarley, our only big preference right now is "Though shalt not put non-ASCII in the Rakudo setting", because that makes it compile really slowly. And it's already one of the slowest parts of a Rakudo build. :-/ 19:35
19:35 sizz left
swarley Well, I'm dealing with nqp right now 19:36
japhb People work around that by just specifying any needed Unicode by explicit codepoint, rather than putting the above-ASCII character directly in the code.
19:36 sizz joined
swarley I'll just use << >> 19:36
japhb swarley: grep the existing source tree. ;-)
swarley Since vim syntax hilights it anyway
japhb That's usually safest when you aren't sure. 19:37
swarley it doesn't get the double angle
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fijal hi 19:58
so who's doing perl6 these days? 19:59
19:59 sizz left
moritz well, folks :-) 20:01
adu hi moritz
moritz ih adu, fijal
adu Perl6 is so beautiful
lue hello o/ 20:02
arnsholt fijal: Pretty good, I think =)
moritz arnsholt: "who" not "how" :-)
arnsholt Oh. Reading comprehension fail *facepalm* 20:03
moritz unless I'm mixing up hvor and hvordan and whatever again :-)
arnsholt =D
dalek ast: b19c74d | moritz++ | S03-junctions/misc.t:
RT #112392: Junction.Str should return a, well, Str
 20:04
20:04 pterygota left
fijal heh 20:07
who's working on it
and also what are the directions 20:08
like, is parrot still the holy grail?
adu fijal: the TODO?
fijal: from what I hear, ppl are becoming increasingly unsatisfied with parrot 20:09
moritz fijal: well, sorear and colomon are working on niecza, and jnthn, masak, timotimo, FROGGS, me and a few others are working on rakud (most of us on and off, jnthn rather constantly) 20:10
fijal what's niecza?
or should I just read some docs?
adu fijal: perl6 impl on CLI
moritz fijal: and others like [Coke] are working on the tests, and occasinally patch some of the compilers to
fijal oh ok
why do people believe in JVM/CLI so much? 20:11
moritz and pmurias works on rakudo-in-javascript
adu fijal: I don't believe in CLI, I believe in JVM tho
moritz fijal: because quite some work has gone into them, and people hope to benefit from that work
fijal: and people want to be able to run Perl 6 on their phones, for example :-)
20:12 sevin left
swarley \o/ alright, if anyone is interested i just finished the code for the YARV root 20:12
pmurias link to the repo?
swarley Let me just gist the snippit, i don't have a full repo up yet 20:13
arnsholt One interesting thing with JVM/CLI is language interop, which is something we want to do as well
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swarley pastebin.com/WfNviez9 20:13
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adu was there a plan to support JVM? 20:14
maybe it was just my plan
arnsholt And as jnthn pointed out a little while back, no matter which backend we target, there's gonna be a whole pile of implementing to do (6model, metamodel, grammar engine)
moritz adu: you should read planetsix.perl.org/ :-)
swarley I can't believe that there is no perl6 hilighting for gist.github.com
arnsholt s/metamodel/bounded serialization/ actually
swarley but that there is on pastebin
20:15 sevin joined
adu swarley: Perl6 is difficult to highlight 20:15
pmurias swarley: how do you plan to feed that into ruby?
moritz swarley: hoelzro|away is working on Perl 6 syntax hilighting in pygments, which is what github uses
swarley pmurias, MRI ruby has a new feature in 2.0 to load the data structure as an iseq
RubyVM::InstructionSequence.load(iseq_structure).eval 20:16
arnsholt fijal: But if what you really want to know is why noone's doing it with Pypy, I'm not sure there's a very good answer beyond "noone went and did it"
adu moritz: so jnthn is working on JVM 20:17
moritz maybe one reason is that there isn't a particularly known track record of pypy used for languages other than python 20:18
*being used
fijal arnsholt: oh I'm sure there is a bunch of good answers 20:21
arnsholt: I can provide you with a few if you're missing some
arnsholt: but seriously "cross language compatibility" and "access to JVM libs" seems very legit to me
tadzik and the current Perl 5 experimentations are also happening around JVM 20:22
pmurias fijal: a lot of the people 20:23
fijal arnsholt: also RPython is an atrocious language
(still beats C++ though)
pmurias fijal: seems to be interested in rakudo-jvm are using a lot of jvm stuff 20:24
fijal pmurias: for example in python world jython has seen 0 interest from python people 20:25
(but quite a bit from java people)
20:25 domidumont left
pmurias fijal: re inspections of lexicals I think we can easily statically analyse that in Perl 6 20:26
swarley Anyone have any comments on my code where it needs to be changed or fixed?
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pmurias swarley: seems ok, but I have zero YARV knowledge 20:29
fijal pmurias: ok
pmurias: you can't do it in python or ruby
without cheating
adu what's YARV?
fijal the JVM and CLI implementations cheat
pmurias adu: ruby vm 20:30
fijal so is parrot seeing any development?
swarley pmurias, I'm following the the output of RubyVM::InstructionSequence.compile("") exactly
adu fijal: that last I heard was "slow"
pmurias adu: it's much faster than the old one 20:31
adu fijal: it's also in transition
fijal from what to what?
adu fijal: and while it's in transition, the documentation can appear out of date in some places
fijal: from NQP to NQP
pmurias adu: ?
adu pmurias: perhaps I should explain myself better 20:32
FROGGS adu; you're mixing up rakudo and parrot
adu the compilers and libraries which are required to experiment with parrot, still use an older version of NQP, which makes it difficult to follow some parrot docs, such as the "getting started" docs 20:34
FROGGS: how am I mixing them up?
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pmurias fijal: there seem to be commits to the repo 20:35
FROGGS adu: you answered that nqp is in transition, but the question was about parrots development state 20:36
pmurias fijal: but one of the more active guys has started his own VM ;)
(for Perl 5 and 6)
masak are you referring to fglock's perlito? 20:37
moritz rurban and potion, I think
pmurias moritz: yes
FROGGS there will be parrot 5.0 (or maybe is already released), so there is something going on, dont how how many devs are active
pmurias: another VM? 20:38
pmurias perl11.org/p2/ 20:39
FROGGS can somebody please rum t/spec/S05-metasyntax/litvar.t and tell me if the array tests are ok? I'm not sure if I broke something or not
adu FROGGS: my point is that many Parrot tools depend on NQP, the previous one, and so until it depends on the new NQP, Parrot is also in transition 20:40
moritz FROGGS: no, it doesn't even parse
FROGGS: it's not run by 'make spectest'
FROGGS moritz: I know that :o)
masak wonders if he has met the anonymous coward in the comments of 6guts.wordpress.com/2013/02/02/a-lo...ss-update/
FROGGS okay, so I maybe stash and uncomment the unparseable tests 20:41
or maybe ...
nr: my @var = <a b c>; say "a" ~~ /@var[0]/ 20:42
p6eval niecza v24-18-gaf64300: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Apparent subscript will be treated as regex at /tmp/TUY2_0gp7v line 1:␤------> my @var = <a b c>; say "a" ~~ /@var⏏[0]/␤␤Match()␤»
..rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
fijal thanks guys
20:42 fijal left
FROGGS adu: I didnt know that there are parrot tools which need nqp, that explains it 20:44
adu FROGGS: just read the Parrot "Getting Started" document: docs.parrot.org/parrot/devel/html/d...d.pod.html 20:45
FROGGS I see 20:46
adu but that's just an example of it in documentation, I recall from past experience that you can't build parrot without it's nqp
dalek kudo/nom: 935c90c | moritz++ | / (2 files):
Calculate each year's Rakudo releases

also fill up the dates for 2013.
FROGGS pmurias: potion sounds good, but I tend to only believe stuff that I see ;o) 20:47
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swarley nqp: class Foo { has @.bar; method setup() { @.bar := [1,2,3] } }; say(Foo.new().setup().bar); 20:58
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Unable to parse expression in blockoid; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near "has @.bar;"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 13207 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:4680) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤»
swarley nqp: class Foo { has @.bar; method setup() { @!bar := [1,2,3] } }; say(Foo.new().setup().bar); 20:59
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Unable to parse expression in blockoid; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near "has @.bar;"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 13207 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:4680) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤»
swarley floats to a query 21:00
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swarley nqp: class Foo {has @.array}; say(Foo.new(:array([1,3,3])).array) 21:03
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Unable to parse expression in blockoid; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near "has @.arra"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 13207 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:4680) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤»
swarley r: class Foo {has @.array}; say(Foo.new(:array([1,3,3])).array)
p6eval rakudo 6d5dc6: OUTPUT«1 3 3␤»
swarley Why doesn't it work in nqp?
moritz swarley: nqp doesn't support generation of accessors
swarley oh
moritz swarley: you can use private attributes with 'has @!bar;' 21:04
swarley Why not? That doesn't seem like that advanced of a feature
moritz and writing your own method bar() { @!bar } as an accessor
swarley Well that's what I have now, i was just trying to clean it up
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swarley how would you say that a method requires at least one argument but can take many more? 21:06
*@args would allow for zero, i think
masak swarley: the invocant is counted as a parameter to a method. 21:08
swarley invocant?
masak the object on which the method was called.
swarley oh 21:09
masak r: class C { has $.name; method foo { say self, " is the invocant" }; method gist { $.name } }; C.new(:name<Philip>).foo
p6eval rakudo 935c90: OUTPUT«Philip is the invocant␤»
masak r: class C { has $.name; method foo($usually-hidden-invocant: ) { say "$usually-hidden-invocant is the invocant" }; method gist { $.name } }; C.new(:name<Philip>).foo 21:10
p6eval rakudo 935c90: OUTPUT«C<-45509055> is the invocant␤»
masak o.O
swarley wat
masak submits rakudobug
r: class C { has $.name; method foo($x: ) { say "$x is the invocant" }; method gist { $.name } }; C.new(:name<Philip>).foo
p6eval rakudo 935c90: OUTPUT«C<1645388291> is the invocant␤»
masak .gist... stops working... when the method takes an explicit invocant!? 21:11
pmurias swarley: re why not? because accessor are rw methods in Perl6 and nqp doesn't support assignment 21:12
swarley ohh 21:13
masak oh! notabug.
since when things are interpolated in a string, .Str is called, not .gist 21:14
if you ask me, I think we got one method too many there in the end :/
r: class C { has $.name; method foo($x: ) { say "$x is the invocant" }; method Str { $.name } }; C.new(:name<Philip>).foo
p6eval rakudo 935c90: OUTPUT«Philip is the invocant␤»
swarley nqp: say(nqp::unshift([1,2,3], 0).join(' ,') 21:18
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "say(nqp::u"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 13207 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:4680) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤»
swarley nqp: say(nqp::unshift([1,2,3], 0).join(' ,'))
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Method 'join' not found for invocant of class 'ResizablePMCArray'␤current instr.: '' pc 74 ((file unknown):47) (/tmp/V3PG7wCUYk:1)␤»
swarley o-o
swarley floats back to query
pmurias query? 21:19
masak reply.
enthusiastic reply!
FROGGS nqp: say(nqp::join(', ' ,nqp::unshift([1,2,3], 0)))
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«0, 1, 2, 3␤»
21:19 fijal joined
fijal oh 21:19
and one more thing
swarley yeah, i just figured that out
fijal if you guys are moving to JVM, what about 1-liners? 21:20
masak fijal: what about them?
fijal well
startup is a mess
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pmurias fijal: we can use rakudo-js for 1-liners ;) 21:21
fijal: or a persistent interpreter
swarley are we using v8 for rakudo-js? :p
arnsholt Well, we're not ditching Parrot
fijal uh
see
swarley there is an interesting project called HotRuby 21:22
fijal pmurias: is the JS for the web?
swarley it's a ruby interpreter using ActionScript and JavaScript
fijal how well it works?
swarley it's fairly shitty
fijal ok
swarley Neat proof of concept though
Ruby embedded into html 21:23
fijal there is like a billion of those for Python
swarley where the user actually has python on their end?
yes, there are plenty of ruby embedders, but no others that allow for web browsers to evaluate the code themselves that i'm aware of 21:24
fijal yeah 21:25
python interpreter in JS, python-to-JS translator, pick your poison 21:26
mostly shitty
pmurias swarley: yes, I'm using v8 (through node)
swarley sweet
I love v8 lol
pmurias github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js but it's a bit bitrotten atm 21:27
swarley I'm rewriting my Nodes right now that I have a better grasp on what I'm doing 21:28
arnsholt fijal: Oh, one pretty awesome thing we have (I'm biased though), is the FFI module: github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/ 21:29
swarley Interesting
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fijal arnsholt: have you seen cffi? ;-) 21:30
arnsholt: how do you deal with macros?
arnsholt We don't deal with macros. Which is really annoying when dealing with ncurses 21:31
I've not looked a lot at other FFIs, but did look at a Common Lisp one (Allegro CL, if you care) 21:32
Allegro's FFI was quite similar to Zavolaj, TBH
fijal arnsholt: we have soemthing that's based on luajit ffi + verifier 21:34
(which essentially elevates ABI to API)
arnsholt Cool. Linky? 21:35
fijal cffi.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
arnsholt (Regarding macros, I have something resembling a plan, but no code yet) 21:37
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masak I love it when a plan but no code yet comes together. 21:38
fijal arnsholt: we essentially invoke C compiler 21:39
to figure out details
(you can do it on the setup step)
arnsholt That works 21:40
We synthesise it from the subroutine signatures and use libdyncall to do the heavy lifting
fijal ok 21:41
I think we use libffi
but we can use the JIT too 21:42
(libffi - not recommended)
arnsholt star: use NativeCall; sub printf(Str) is native { * }; printf("Greetings from C") # Like so 21:43
p6eval star 2012.12: OUTPUT«Greetings from C»
fijal cool 21:44
masak \o/
star: use NativeCall; sub printf(Str) is native { * }; printf("%d", 42) 21:45
swarley Alright, I'm rewriting Nodes.nqp. Partial file is here. Tell me if you guys see any blatant errors, if you could. github.com/swarley/nqp-yarv/blob/m.../Nodes.nqp
p6eval star 2012.12: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'printf' will never work with argument types (Str, Int) (line 1)␤ Expected: :(Str )␤»
masak star: use NativeCall; sub printf(Str, Int) is native { * }; printf("%d", 42)
p6eval star 2012.12: OUTPUT«42»
arnsholt jnthn++ implemented the hard parts, and then I've added more functionality
masak star: use NativeCall; sub printf(Str $format, *@args) is native { * }; printf("%d", 42)
p6eval star 2012.12: OUTPUT«Unknown type Positional used in native call.␤If you want to pass a struct, be sure to use the CStruct representation.␤If you want to pass an array, be sure to use the CArray type.␤ in sub type_code_for at /home/p6eval/star/lib/parrot/4.10.0/languages/perl6/lib/Nati…
arnsholt Yeah, varargs isn't implemented yet
masak just testing :) 21:46
step at a time. :)
arnsholt Indeed
Not entirely sure how to do it, TBH. Have to see if there's something special for it in dyncall, or maybe I just pretend it's a normal sig 21:47
swarley break out your handy dandy assembly ;p
pop the stack \o/
arnsholt dyncall has taken care of the assembly, thankfully 21:48
I've never programmed in assembly, believe it or not =)
swarley it's not fun 21:49
lol
believe me
github.com/swarley/ZerOS/tree/master/src/string
And I did most of that incorrectly, I'm sure
21:50 kaare_ left
arnsholt Sleepytime now, I think 21:50
o/
arnsholt & 21:51
lue has no aversion to assembler 21:53
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[Coke] nwc10++ 22:06
22:12 Subterra joined 22:13 PacoAir_ left, Ayiko left 22:16 cognominal joined
jnthn That was more beer than expected... :) 22:17
EBEERLIKINGCOWORKER :)
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jnthn sleep...will probably bee offline until tomorrow evening & 23:12
*be
masak bzzz well, jnthn. 23:13
'night, #perl6
23:14 cognominal left
lue are repo-url and source-url synonyms? 23:15
(in META.info files, that is)
23:19 cognominal joined 23:35 cognominal left, cognominal__ joined 23:39 shinobicl joined 23:45 Pleiades` left 23:49 shinobicl left 23:50 Pleiades` joined

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