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Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
masak 'night, #perl6 00:02
FROGGS gnight all 00:03
not_gerd night 00:05
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uvtc ☾ 00:05
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[Coke] is rakudo using any of the runtime modules provided by parrot? 00:15
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dalek kudo-js: 96b8ae7 | (Paweł Murias)++ | src/QAST/Compiler/JavaScript.nqp:
mangle the new identifier
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rl6-most-wanted: ee48cf8 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | most-wanted/ (2 files):
Start filling out most-wanted files based on Perl 6 Ecosystem Most Wanted Modules list
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dalek kudo-js: b3325bc | (Paweł Murias)++ | run (2 files):
Pass qast_stat.t.
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dalek ast: 3972c4d | (Solomon Foster)++ | S02-types/set.t:
Some basic tests for .set method.
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ecza: 81d9dca | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
Add Hash.set and Hash.bag.
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TimToady Yes, set should not flatten in list context, even though hash does 01:45
otherwise it's nearly impossible to make a set of sets
colomon rn: say 42.set 01:51
p6eval rakudo a3869a, niecza v24-21-g4c8f264: OUTPUT«set(42)␤»
dalek ecs: 13a275e | larry++ | S32-setting-library/Containers.pod:
sets and bags don't flatten in list context
TimToady rn: say <a b c>.set
p6eval rakudo a3869a, niecza v24-21-g4c8f264: OUTPUT«set(a, b, c)␤»
colomon ?"
sorry, was sorting socks on my keyboard. 01:52
TimToady that's a new one
colomon hopes set(a, b, c) was the answer TimToady hoped to get.
TimToady yes
colomon \o/
TimToady rn: (1,2,3).set
p6eval rakudo a3869a, niecza v24-21-g4c8f264: ( no output )
TimToady rn: say (1,2,3).set 01:53
p6eval rakudo a3869a, niecza v24-21-g4c8f264: OUTPUT«set(1, 2, 3)␤»
colomon I haven't added it to the spec yet, but I added it to both rakudo and niecza and roast. :)
TimToady \o/
thanks
colomon I'd written a piece of code that looked like (set @hashes).map(*.Str).sort.join(",") || "<none>"; and it just seemed really stupid that I couldn't say @hashes.set.map(*.Str).sort.join(",") || "<none>"; And I remembered thinking that for something before, too. 01:54
TimToady rn: say (1,2,3).Set 01:57
p6eval niecza v24-21-g4c8f264: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method Set in type Parcel␤ at /tmp/9cIkREXo2w line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4230 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4231 (module-CORE @ 580) ␤ at /home…
..rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«No such method 'Set' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤ in block at /tmp/ryQh_CEK28:1␤␤»
TimToady me wonders if it should be capitalized 01:58
especially since there's another meaning to the word "set"
benabik +1
One of these things are not like the others: *.Int, *.Str, *.set 01:59
TimToady well, there's .list
benabik Does it return a List?
TimToady though taking the .set method will discourage people from writing getters/setters :) 02:00
pmurias TimToady: so what's the decision on Array.delete only exposing it on implementations which use sparse array internaly doesn't seem to portable
s/Array.delete/Array.delete? 02:01
TimToady the semantics should stay the same regardless of how it's implemented underneath
if an implementation can't support NULL poking, then it should probably support it via a real sparse array instead 02:02
otoh an argument could be made that this may negatively affect performance on non-sparse arrays
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diakopter what's a heuristic one could use to detect when to switch to a sparse backing array 02:05
TimToady well, the first delete is a big clue :) 02:06
diakopter ok, sounds good to me
benabik @a[$x] = $y, when $x >> +@a
TimToady but merely tracking how much wasted space there is would be a kloo 02:07
benabik (Well, when $x >> @a.allocated_size)
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pmurias TimToady: on the other hand we could have a sparse array which just avoids storing Mu, and exposes a regular interface 02:10
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TimToady we could, but non-sparse arrays would tend to go all n-log-n-y on access 02:12
they might do that anyway if you're using a lockless structure, but it's really a choice of the implementor 02:13
we just need to make sure the API is consistent, and hopefully provides sufficient info to optimize where that's important 02:14
these are the sorts of implementation decisions that we should try to keep from leaking into our abstractions
pmurias TimToady: n-log-n-y? 02:15
benabik Non-sparse arrays go n-log-n on access? Shouldn't non-sparse element access be O(1)?
diakopter benabik: (that's what I would imagine) 02:16
(based on my naive first guess at imagined implementation)
TimToady yes, they *should* be O(1), that's my point :)
but merely swapping in a sparse implementation might not do that
I mean instead of having a flat implementation 02:17
I was talking about an implementation that always uses a tree for arrays, which would be suboptimalish in that way
P5 has done very well with a bias towards flat arrays, and emulating a bit of sparseness by null poking 02:18
diakopter null poking? 02:19
TimToady what P5 does on delete from array
and exists just says whether there's a pointer at that index
arrays and hashes are conceptually different, but in practice they mush into each other a bit, depending on the underlying container's semantics 02:21
however, in P6, it's an absolute that .[] is always 0 based, and we use .{} aliasing (according to S09) if we want negative indices 02:22
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timotimo i think tomorrow i shall play around with zmq :) 02:43
see if i can get a simple connection working with ipython
did not notice anything missing so far
what are the deciding factors for what gets put into rakudo star? 02:44
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benabik Actually, ideally a sparse array is no worse than log n on access. (Not that it really matters, just occurred to me.) 03:04
timotimo right, because that would be a tree, right? 03:07
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dalek ecza: 0520c7c | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
Add another to-set multi to resolve conflict.
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dalek ast: 38dd58f | (Solomon Foster)++ | S02-types/bag.t:
Some tests for .bag.
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dalek ecs: 3b88fdf | larry++ | S02-bits.pod:
autopriming doesn't look inside metaops
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moritz jnthn: rakudo/nom segfaults while compiling BOOTSTRAP 09:26
(on 64bit)
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FROGGS "morning" 09:35
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FROGGS moritz: I get a $past that has $past.isa(QAST::Op) && $past.op eq 'callmethod' && $past.name eq 'list', then I could wrap it in an QAST::Op that calls map, right? 09:37
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moritz FROGGS: you could, yes 09:53
FROGGS k, thanks 09:55
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nwc10 is Array.at_pos() part of the spec, or an implementation detail? 10:31
sorear I think it's intended to be spec once there's consensus it's solid 10:32
nwc10 OK. It accepts negative indices. [] doesn't 10:33
sorear ISTR jnthn talking about at_pos as being the preferred point for module authors to hook into indexing
arnsholt Yep. There're some complicated bits like slicing that [] implements in terms of at_pos, so that other people don't have to 10:34
nwc10 next stupid question - is there a way to monkey-patch methods into Array, so that I can test them without recompiling the setting? 10:38
arnsholt I think the usual way is to subclass it and test your implementation that way, before moving it into the setting 10:39
moritz nwc10: sure, you can write use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class Array { your methods here }
nwc10: and then run your tests with it from the same file 10:40
nwc10 thanks
moritz that's how I developed many built-ins that ended up in the setting
nwc10 works on my machine
moritz you just can't replace existing methods that way
(if the method isn't used for bootstrappy purposes, you can delete it once from the setting, recompile and them monkey-patch it in again) 10:41
nwc10 r: my @a = "Q"; my $b := @a.at_pos(-1); say @a; $b = "Pi"; say @a 10:47
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«Q␤Pi␤»
nwc10 so, binding to -1 works, and can be assigned to. But direct assignement: 10:48
r: my @a = "Q"; @a.at_pos(-1) = "Pi"; say @a;
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«ResizablePMCArray: index out of bounds!␤ in block at src/gen/CORE.setting:6312␤ in block at /tmp/pVWoo4iDNp:1␤␤»
moritz I think at_pos supporting negative arguments is a misfeature 10:49
nwc10 it's easier to reimplement if it doesn't
and I'm out of my depth to explain why I can bind then assign, but can't assign directly 10:50
moritz IMHO it's the job of postcircumfix:<[ ]> to make sure that sane arguments are passed to at_pos
nwc10 that, I think, already throws an exception for negative arguments
jnthn morning o/ 11:06
Well, not quite, but... 11:07
moritz: Odd about the SEGV...did you (or could you try) make realclean in NQP and Rakudo just in case?
moritz: I note that p6eval seems to have managed to build it...
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masak afty, #perl6 11:18
sorear o/ masak 11:20
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not_gerd o/ 11:31
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masak \o 11:32
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not_gerd Is this correct: Rakudo depends on PCT via PAST/POST, but not on PGE and TGE 11:33
masak Rakudo used to depend on PCT via PAST/POST.
jnthn Not, it doesn't use PAST or POST any more.
masak now nqp handles those bits, using QAST.
not_gerd good
jnthn Right, and POST was replaced with PIRT 11:34
Which saved a good bit of memory :)
masak it's correct that Rakudo doesn't use PGE anymore. nqp handles that, too.
I'm not aware that Rakudo ever used TGE.
jnthn Maybe it did before it was Rakudo.
:)
masak maybe.
I've never seen TGE being used anywhere. my impression is that it was something XSLT-like. but I may be wildly wrong about that. 11:35
jnthn Attribute grammar based, iirc
not_gerd is trying to rip out stuff from parrot 11:36
jnthn moritz: Just done a fresh build of everything here and it worked. If it is still segfaulting for you, a bt would help.
nwc10 oh yes, worked on a complete clean fresh build for me on x86_64 Linux 11:38
forgot to say
masak jnthn: oh, right. attribute grammar rings a bell. 11:40
which means, again IIUC, that values are calculated based on fairly fluid dependency relations up and down the tree.
nwc10 jnthn: if at_pos didn't accept negative indices, life would be easier 11:52
dalek p: 6b358a3 | jnthn++ | src/core/NQPRoutine.pm:
Toss now-unrequired clone callback legacy code.
p: f92cd68 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
Add an nqp::escape that maps to pir::escape.
p: 3f27005 | jnthn++ | src/stage0/ (9 files):
Update bootstrap.
p: 26d0d0f | jnthn++ | src/QAST/ (2 files):
Get QASTNodes free of pir::.
jnthn nwc10: I...wasn't terribly aware it did 11:53
nwc10 well, it passes them all through unchecked to Parrot
jnthn nwc10: Oh, does it work because the underlying nqp::atpos call it makes will make it work?
nwc10 which does the Perl 5 thing
jnthn Yeah
nwc10 there is no spec for at_pos, is there?
jnthn r: my @a; @a[-1] = 42
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«Cannot use negative index -1 on Array␤ in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:10518␤ in at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2488␤ in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2476␤ in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:925␤ in block at /tmp/WQ5CfdWT6J:1␤␤»…
nwc10 jnthn: this one seems a bit special: 11:54
rn: my @a = "Q"; my $b := @a.at_pos(-1); say @a; $b = "Pi"; say @a
p6eval niecza v24-23-g0520c7c: OUTPUT«Q␤Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤ at /tmp/5VIpPlG9bW line 1 (mainline @ 7) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4233 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4234 (module-CORE @ 580) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/…
..rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«Q␤Pi␤»
nwc10 but if I assign directly:
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nwc10 rn: my @a = "Q"; my $b := @a.at_pos(-2); say @a; $b = "Pi"; say @a 11:54
p6eval niecza v24-23-g0520c7c: OUTPUT«Q␤Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤ at /tmp/R97BJDqmX7 line 1 (mainline @ 7) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4233 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4234 (module-CORE @ 580) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/…
..rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«Q␤ResizablePMCArray: index out of bounds!␤ in block at src/gen/CORE.setting:6312␤ in block at /tmp/hf6AmK3vH1:1␤␤»
nwc10 oops
jnthn at_pos ain't meant to be called directly really 11:55
nwc10 this one:
rn: my @a = "Q"; @a.at_pos(-1) = "Pi"; say @a;
p6eval niecza v24-23-g0520c7c: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤ at /tmp/iUM6cmaxiq line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4233 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4234 (module-CORE @ 580) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/li…
..rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«ResizablePMCArray: index out of bounds!␤ in block at src/gen/CORE.setting:6312␤ in block at /tmp/ZaPQ0bu_mB:1␤␤»
jnthn @foo[...] calls postcircumfix:<[ ]>
nwc10 so, direct assignment is a bounds failure, but I can bind to it and then assign without error
I'd figured out that @foo[...] called that, by using ack to find the error message :-)
jnthn Anyway, I suspect that the oddness is 'cus at_pos (the method) was written expecting to never be passed anything negative. 11:56
nwc10 ah OK.
jnthn Which it never is in normal use thanks to postcircumfix:<[ ]>
nwc10 I shall try refactoring it to treat anything negative as, um, wrong-in-some-fashion 11:57
jnthn Yeah, but if you do that let's consider moving the check out of postcircumfix maybe?
Doing it twice over is wasteful.
nwc10 good point
I might be abducted by the requirement to go out with the toboggan 11:58
jnthn ;)
The other thing is that we can easily make the JVM impl of nqp::atpos etc just reject negative indices rather than trying to make sense of them, and declare that as the expected behavior. 11:59
(Then find a way to make it happen on Parrot.)
nwc10 My gut feeling is that negative indices (and sparseness, if desired) belong in the layer that implements the Perl 6 compiler
and the NQP level should be non-negative non-sparse only 12:00
but this is a gut feeling
jnthn Well, you aren't allowed negative indices in Perl 6 really.
@a[-1] is an error, you're meant to write @a[*-1]
nwc10 I sort of inferred that from Any.pm's grumpiness :-)
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moritz idly ponders an ORM where you have roles instead of result classes, and when you do a join, it mixes in the roles that correspond to each table 12:13
jnthn idly ponders than "ORM" is Swedish for "SNAKE" :) 12:15
*that
moritz
.oO( pyhton ORM )
though I guess when most of your tables have a last_changed timestamp, you'd get either a silent overwrite or a coposition conflict 12:18
nwc10 OK, is this a rakudobug
r: my @a = "Q"; @a.at_pos(-1) = "Pi"; say @a;
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«ResizablePMCArray: index out of bounds!␤ in block at src/gen/CORE.setting:6312␤ in block at /tmp/pAjocXUetQ:1␤␤»
nwc10 r: my @a = "Q"; say @a; @a.at_pos(-1) = "Pi"; say @a;
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«Q␤Pi␤»
nwc10 ie, adding say @a; makes everything peachy 12:19
jnthn nwc10: It's just a consequence of nothing else downstream of at_pos expecting a -1 12:21
nwc10: Of note, I suspect it's the "make sure we reified up to n elements" thing 12:22
And reificiation is memoized, so the say makes it happen so it can output the array and then the data is luckily in the right place when the unexpected -1 indexing happens.
nwc10 OK. so this is all suggesting that life is simpler if at_pos does the negative index sanity check 12:23
jnthn Anyway, I think the answer to all of this is "passing negative numbers to at_pos is a bad idea" :)
Yeah.
nwc10 doctor doctor, it hurts if I do this
well, don't do that then
jnthn Right, it's one of those. Everyday use doesn't run into this since @a[-1] already catches it 12:24
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arnsholt r: say "ø".bytes 12:43
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«No such method 'bytes' for invocant of type 'Str'␤ in block at /tmp/soOR_c1cPr:1␤␤»
arnsholt Oh, durr. Of course there's no .bytes in Str 12:44
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arnsholt moritz: I want a DB that is an object store, rather than a relational one =) 12:51
timotimo: You're just timo on GitHub right? 12:57
moritz arnsholt: if that DB supports SQL-like queries, schemas and transactions, I'm all for it :-) 12:58
arnsholt Yeah, that's always been the problem IIRC 12:59
moritz I honestly don't understand the "schemaless" approach. For most applications the code has to make assumptions on the structure of the data (and if not, a simple key/value store is likely sufficient) 13:09
I mean, I like duck typing in my code, but in the data it always felt way more dangerous 13:10
if I have made a type error that wasn't caught due to duck typing, I fix it an recompile. Done. But when I made type errors in the data (that weren't caught because of lack of a schema), then recompiling my code isn't enough to rectify the problem 13:11
jnthn I think having a schema *somewhere* is good, the issues arise when you end up with it in two places or zero places. If you're working in a language that guides you to specify types statically, then that serves as a kind of schema and thus keeping it sync'd with a SQL server's view of the schema is the pain point. In a more dynamic language, you don't get that duplication. 13:13
In other words, if you have yoru schema defined/statically checked in code, then a schemaless store can still be pretty safe. 13:14
moritz well, if your language is statically typed, and you change the types, you must still take care of migrating the data
jnthn Sure, but you gotta take care of what when changing any schema :) 13:15
Granted, if the same thing owns the data and the schema then that can make things easier. 13:16
moritz so we'd really need some way that the data store and the application can automatically sync or check their data models 13:17
jnthn One approach (being used fairly well on some $dayjob client I sometimes do stuff with) is to specify the migrations in code. The database is given a version number; if at application startup the version is incorrect, it applies the changes. 13:19
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moritz that sounds sane 13:20
which basically means that the application has a model layer which is the only thing ever allowed to write to the database
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fijal hi 13:51
arnsholt 'lo fijal 13:52
jnthn: I think that's the RoR way (or at least possible to do in RoR) 13:53
fijal jnthn: hi, I think RaceConditions hinted me that you might want to have some questions about PyPy 13:54
jnthn arnsholt: Perhaps so. This was a .Net shop. :)
fijal but maybe I misunderstood
jnthn fijal: Don't have anything just yet. At the moment I'm working on a JVM backend for NQP, but at least half the work is actually spotting the leftover places where things were coupled too tightly to Parrot. I'm interested in targeting more things in the future, I'm open to looking at PyPy, but my plate is a bit too full to think about that right now. :) 13:58
arnsholt jnthn: Yeah, I figured they might be =)
jnthn arnsholt: Yes, there's LOADS of .Net here in Sweden :) 13:59
So I encounter it a lot.
fijal jnthn: ok 14:00
jnthn: I can also tell you why JVM is a bad idea, but I'm not sure you're interested in hearing that
arnsholt Yeah, I suspect there's a fair bit of .Net this side of the border as well, 'cept I don't see a lot of it, being in academia and all 14:01
jnthn fijal: It's not really about good/bad ideas, it's about trade-offs.
fijal well, JVM is a bad platform for dynamic languages
compared to e.g. writing an interpreter in C
jnthn What makes it especially bad? 14:02
fijal it's too tied to java
RPython is a much better choice (but you would expect me to say that)
jnthn :) 14:03
fijal but they told you a lot of lies 14:04
of course it always depends
but building stuff in RPython is both easier and gives you a better result
geekosaur having been at least on the soutskirts of several projects trying to use the jvm for not-java, I can vouch for that to some extent; if it's not a java feature, it's porly supported and may require a lot of hackery 14:05
*poorly
jnthn OTOH, Java doesn't do much, and as a result the JVM doesn't really do a great deal either. There is something to be said for having a small number of primitves and doing them really fast. OTOH, there are places where the fact the VM doesn't directly provide what's needed makes it hard to do well and/or impossible to get as fast as a VM that did offer the thing natively. 14:06
fijal well
but I claim we solved this
and your performance expectations are a bit off probably 14:09
because say jruby puts lots and lots of effort working around java limitations
or JVM
jnthn My performance expectations are "better than Parrot". I think we'll get that. :)
geekosaur there is that... 14:10
fijal hehe
ok
but then, why JVM?
and of course why not PyPy?
geekosaur I think someone's poking at pypy (inspired by topaz) --- but the jvm is there and widely deployed 14:11
fijal as is posix... 14:12
moritz POSIX doesn't come with a GC and JIT compiler
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geekosaur from my* pov there's a smallish gap petween parrot and pypy due to deployment issues, and a much larger gap between those and clr/jvm 14:12
fijal moritz: pypy does
moritz fijal: yes, but POSIX doesn't.
fijal geekosaur: er, I think you're missing the point
jnthn Partly familiarity, partly that I think there should be the option to use some kind of Perl on the JVM, partly because it has a real-world-tested threads implementation and we need to get our story straight on those. 14:13
geekosaur and I hink *you* just missed the point
fijal geekosaur: pypy does compile stuff to native executable
there is no "deployment problem"
geekosaur oh, youre stuck on performance
moritz fijal: parrot is also used on POSIX systems, but it's not widely deployed either
geekosaur that's not the deployment problem
let me rephrase that: how many people even know about pypy?
fijal moritz: you need parrot to run stuff though, right?
geekosaur vs. how many know about the jvm and use it daily?
fijal geekosaur: why do you care? 14:14
geekosaur ...
fijal geekosaur: if you get an executable that's posix-compliant?
as in it's not the same 14:15
geekosaur hello, perl6 is already seen as being backed into a pointless niche. rebasing on *another* niche VM is not helpful
fijal you don't write a compiler to pypy bytecode that requires deployment
you write an interpreter in RPython that's different
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geekosaur there is a marketing issue here; I'm going to guess you don't see why that has any significance (and tbh that means you're part of the problem in some sense) 14:16
fijal jnthn: I think perl on JVM is honestly not very helpful, but fair enough
moritz why shouldn't it be helpful?
fijal jnthn: as python on JVM for example has ever seen adoption from java programmers and not from python progammers
moritz what's wrong with that? 14:17
fijal geekosaur: you mean "wrote on JVM" adds you marketing boost?
jnthn fijal: "only ever"?
fijal jnthn: ?
geekosaur perl6 needs any boost it can get. seriously
moritz and running on java-only mobile phones is certainly a big plus
jnthn fijal: "python on JVM for example has ever seen adoption" - did you mean "only ever" or did you typo "never"? :)
fijal ah
jnthn: only Java using people ever used python on JVM 14:18
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fijal as in, noone moved from CPython to Jython 14:18
but there are some users as a way to script JVM
sure
geekosaur: I'm not sure JVM is cool enough any more honestly, but well
geekosaur "vm that everyone knows about and exists everywhere" is kinda necessary to counter the years of "parrot wtf".
cool doesn't really enter into it
_sri JRuby is a better example for success with the JVM 14:19
geekosaur you're thinking like a geek. that's not sufficient
fijal geekosaur: I personally think that building on a technology that's "cool" these days would give you some boost
but well
it'\s a matter of opinion
_sri: yes
geekosaur again, you're thinking like a geek. and again, that's not sufficient 14:20
moritz also, scala and clojure
just to name two more non-java languages on the JVM 14:21
fijal well yeah
aren't geeks the target audience? 14:22
anyway
of course I don't have any way to convince you what you should do in the free time 14:23
_sri the JVM is as close to a "you won't get fired for choosing this" option for VMs as it gets
moritz then please stop doing so
fijal moritz: ok, goodbye
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moritz waves 14:23
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jnthn Just to be clear: the way this is being done is *adding* the JVM support as an extra backend, just like we were able to add the debugger as a different frontend. It's not like I'm saying "we'll only run on the JVM forever" or even "we're going to now tie ourselves to the JVM". I'm saying the JVM is where we're going as the first non-Parrot thing. 14:24
Unless pmurias beats me to it with the JS work ;)
ah, he left.
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moritz sorry 'bout that. I thought he wanted to discuss technical merits, not just convince us 14:25
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jnthn Well, I'm mostly convinced by technical merit, so... :) 14:26
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rindolf Hi jnthn , moritz 14:31
jnthn o/ rindolf
nwc10 bother, I missed fijal. I know I can /msg him 14:32
rindolf jnthn: what's up?
jnthn rindolf: Not much. It's the weekend, I'm trying to remember to relax as well as hack on stuff ;)
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[Coke] (why the jvm) - because then I can run perl6 at a work, since I have to run things inside a j2ee container. :) 14:46
nwc10 it's that sort of thing that makes that JVM a politically useful target, even if it's not the best from a technical perspective 14:48
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timotimo arnsholt: i am indeed "timo" on github 15:22
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arnsholt Excellent. I've added you as a collaborator to the repo =) 15:27
Hmm. ufo generates a circular dependency for Net::ZMQ 15:29
moritz arnsholt: that usually happens if there's a "use"-statement in the pod 15:30
in one of the pods, at least
arnsholt I don't have any POD 15:31
moritz hm 15:32
arnsholt Could be that I've actually put in a circular use chain 15:37
Indeed I have =D
Thought I'd tested that before running ufo 15:38
Oh, derp. Think I know what I did
moritz ufo prevails! 15:39
arnsholt Indeed =) 15:40
timotimo so, is there a test suite that we can adapt from somewhere? i suppose a few simple tests can be written that create inproc sockets and send some stuff around? 15:46
arnsholt In-process might work 15:47
I was going to see what ZMQ::LibZMQ2 on CPAN did for its testsuite to get inspiration
But I'm also dangerously close to doing some more NQP/dyncall hacking 15:48
Our string handling ATM kind of sucks
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moritz r: my int4 $x = 1; for 1..10 { $x = $x * 2; say $x } 15:54
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«2␤4␤8␤16␤32␤64␤128␤256␤512␤1024␤»
moritz have any of rakudo's small-int types adopted to benefit from the REPR changes? 15:56
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jnthn Well, it's more that the lexical handling ain't updated yet 15:57
moritz so it might work as an attribute? 15:58
jnthn Yeah
arnsholt It should work as an attribute I think
Or at least, it did work as an attribute at some point during my branch =)
moritz r: class A { has int8 $.x; method doit { for ^16 { $!x = $!x * 2; say $!x } }; A.new(x => 1).doit 15:59
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse expression in block; couldn't find final '}'␤at /tmp/GsjRTgfV_u:1␤------> $!x * 2; say $!x } }; A.new(x => 1).doit⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ method arguments␤ postfix␤ infix o…
moritz r: class A { has int8 $.x; method doit { for ^16 { $!x = $!x * 2; say $!x } } }; A.new(x => 1).doit
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤ in block at src/gen/CORE.setting:769␤ in method BUILDALL at src/gen/CORE.setting:752␤ in method bless at src/gen/CORE.setting:742␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:727␤ in block at /tmp/NMlB46N9AC:1␤␤»
moritz r: class A { has int8 $!x = 2; method doit { for ^16 { $!x = $!x * 2; say $!x } } }; A.new(x => 1).doit 16:00
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤ in block at src/gen/CORE.setting:797␤ in method BUILDALL at src/gen/CORE.setting:752␤ in method bless at src/gen/CORE.setting:742␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:727␤ in block at /tmp/cAixnkgtbt:1␤␤»
moritz r: class A { has int8 $!x = 2; method doit { for ^16 { $!x = $!x * 2; say $!x } } }; A.new.doit
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤»
moritz r: class A { has int8 $!x = 2; method doit { $!x = 1; for ^16 { $!x = $!x * 2; say $!x } } }; A.new.doit
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«2␤4␤8␤16␤32␤64␤-128␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤»
moritz bumpy ride, but got there eventually :-) 16:01
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arnsholt Yeah, the lack of containers on natives is a bit annoying as well 16:02
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arnsholt timotimo: The API is ZMQ 2.x, BTW (since that's what my Ubuntu had on tap) 16:29
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timotimo ah 16:31
arnsholt Hopefully that's manageable 16:33
Or does ipython use ZMQ3?
timotimo i think it supports both, but i'm not sure. let me have a look. 16:38
arnsholt I want to support ZMQ3 as well, but the ZMQ2 API is smaller, so I'd like to get a handle on that first, and then start looking at ZMQ3 16:39
timotimo mhm 16:40
apparently they require >= 2 16:42
2.1.11 is their minimum version at this time
arnsholt That's the the exact version Ubuntu ships, so excecllent =) 16:43
timotimo coincidence? :) 16:45
timotimo builds a fresh rakudo
with an nqp from master, hell yeah bleeding edge :)) 16:47
jnthn You should see how bleeding my local one is :P 16:49
timotimo :3
make: *** [NQPP5QRegex.pbc] Segmentation fault 16:51
well, that was surprising
jnthn Try a make clean :)
timotimo sure
jnthn I had to do that a couple of times yesterday. I suspect a missing Makefile dep somewhere, but didn't spot it. 16:53
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timotimo huh, make clean wasn't clean enough it seems 16:58
maybe i need a newer parrot, too?
jnthn No
moritz rakudo compilation still segfaults for me :(
timotimo git clean'd 16:59
jnthn :/
moritz I've tried to run it under gdb, but it seemed to hang
I aborted after a few minutes
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timotimo git clean helped it seems 17:03
er, no
three seconds after i said that, it exploded :))
arnsholt No segfault on NQP HEAD here 17:06
But failures in the test suite, it seems 17:07
timotimo deleted nqp, parrot and install folders
arnsholt Segfault before first test but after plan in t/nqp/60-bigint.t and segfault after test 71 in t/qast/qast.t, as well as failure of test 19 (which is bigint-related) 17:08
arnsholt tries HEAD^ 17:09
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 17:11
arnsholt 'lo pmichaud
moritz good am, pm
jnthn arnsholt: That one I had to kill with a properly clean
It's something to do with not getting a proper bigint ops rebuild.
s/properly/proper/ 17:12
o/ pmichaud
arnsholt Aha
FROGGS hi pmichaud, hi all 17:14
dalek p/rx-portability: f5d0a8b | jnthn++ | / (5 files):
Stub in an NFA representation.

We'll keep it in the current form for construction; this is what we'll feed to the executor and also serialize them as.		 17:15
p/rx-portability: ecc5234 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
Sketch in some nqp:: ops for NFA handling.
p/rx-portability: ce1308b | jnthn++ | src/stage0/ (9 files):
Update bootstrap to get nqp::ops.
p/rx-portability: b027079 | jnthn++ | src/ (3 files):
Implement various NFA ops.
p/rx-portability: 5980aa5 | jnthn++ | src/QRegex/NFA.nqp:
Start using new NFA REPR and ops.

Avoids doing a lot of v-table calls while evaluating the NFA (can do a bit more improvement yet also). This should also help ease NFA porting, plus it's good to get this cleared up before porting things.
arnsholt jnthn: Cheers. That fixed it
jnthn moritz: Does make test in NQP look good to you? 17:16
moritz jnthn: I'm rebuilding from scratch now, so will tell you when I get there again :-)
jnthn ok :)
timotimo hm, i wonder if i had been running parrot 5 at the time nqp segfaulted when trying to build 17:17
because now it looks like i've gotten to rakudo, with --gen-parrot 17:18
uvtc Oh, interesting. The Parrot history I was asking about last night was re-asked by cotto on #parrot, and allison had some comments on it. 17:23
pmichaud I guess I should go read the logs. :-) 17:24
uvtc Oh, hi pmichaud .
timotimo /home/timo/build/rakudo/install/bin/nqp --target=pir --output=src/gen/perl6-bootstrap.pir --encoding=utf8 \ --vmlibs=perl6_ops src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm 17:25
get_pmc_keyed_str() not implemented in class 'ResizablePMCArray'
is this known?
jnthn No 17:26
Can you gist me the entire output? 17:27
timotimo sure
paste.ee/p/kIgEB
oh, hold on 17:28
i think that got corrupted
pmichaud moritz++ # comments on #parrot and rakudo/parrot merge 17:29
timotimo paste.ee/p/Cehwq - there you go 17:30
jnthn timotimo: Whoa 17:31
timotimo: What Rakudo sha1 and what nqp sha1 are you building?
timotimo Sonoma-93-g14c9305 - rakudo | nqp - 2013.01-143-g26d0d0f 17:32
jnthn Because that looks exactly like a Rakudo speaking a previous version of the repr compose protocl...
2013.01-113-ga3869a0
That is my Rakudo 17:33
timotimo i *thought* i had git pull'd rakudo just before i did that.
oh, yeah, i was on the constant-folding branch
that was clever
jnthn oops :)
And also, phew. That error could have meant something a lot wrose if it had happened in a difference place. 17:34
timotimo yes, excuse me for causing a state of nationwide panic in johnathantown :)
jnthn np :)
shop, dinner, etc :) 17:38
timotimo rakudo succeeded to build now :) 17:40
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timotimo arnsholt: any way to implement the ipython heartbeat socket? it's supposed to run asynchronous to the program. (except for of course q:x'ing another rakudo...) 17:46
arnsholt Not really, I think
For that we really want threads
timotimo yes, we do
arnsholt jnthn: Using the set/get_int REPR hooks to deal with the length of a C string buffer: acceptably eww, or "don't go there" eww? 17:48
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jnthn arnsholt: That's...wrong. 18:02
arnsholt Yeah, I know =)
jnthn Those are for boxing/unboxing only :)
arnsholt Won't do that, then
Doodling around with the best ways to implement a CStr REPR as outlined in the gist I made a while back 18:03
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moritz jnthn: after git clean -dxf in both rakudo and nqp, nqp's 'make test' and rakudo's build succeeded again 18:19
jnthn moritz: Phew. :) I wouldn't mind trying to figure out what we're missing. 18:23
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nwc10 bother - does an "is rw" subroutine have to "fall off the end" to work? (ie, be able to assign to the returned lvalue) 18:34
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moritz nwc10: no, you can return-rw 18:36
nwc10 excellent! 18:37
moritz r: my $x = 42; sub f() is rw { return-rw $x }; f() = 23; say $x
p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«23␤»
moritz it's kind of a design smell, to have both return and return-rw. But normal people(tm) exepct return to decontainerize 18:38
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colomon has never used return-rw 18:50
benabik Why doesn't return just do return-rw inside sub is rw? 18:51
moritz benabik: because return isn't simply lexically scoped
benabik oy
... Wait 18:54
What kind of scoping does it use then?
Or is this "mostly lexically scoped, but can be altered because it's all exceptions"? 18:56
moritz yes 19:00
jnthn back from le dinner :) 19:08
nwc10 was it good?
jnthn It involved bacon. ;) 19:09
And white wine.
And cream and mushrooms and stuff.
So yeah, pretty good ;)
colomon bacon++ 19:10
moritz sounds diverse and tasty :-) 19:11
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alec__ spaghetti carbonara? 19:28
uvtc alec__: Is that a pun about the old pre-Cocoa Mac OS interface? :) 19:33
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jnthn alec__: Not really...no eggs or cheese in what I did :) 19:33
alec__ has a policy of letting you believe he's clever whenever something he says happens to be funny like that, uvtc 19:34
i see, jnthn
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jnthn We call the things CONTROL catches control exceptions...do we have a name for the non-control ones (besides non-control :))? 19:59
moritz errors? :-) 20:03
ordinary exceptions?
nwc10 regular socials? 20:08
20:20 brrt joined
colomon they'd be more popular if they were ice cream socials. 20:21
masak (by symmetry, they should be called 'catch exceptions'.) 20:29
hi, #perl6
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brrt hi masak 20:34
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colomon o/ 20:48
moritz \o masak 20:50
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[Coke] starts ripping things out at github.com/coke/parrot . only something small so far. 21:40
Every PMC I've tried so far is actually used internally somewhere. ;)
21:53 lizmat is now known as Liz, Liz is now known as lizmat
pmurias [Coke]: what would be the benefit of that? easier maintenance? 21:56
[Coke] pmurias: parrot has a lot of stuff rakudo isn't using. Maybe rakudo will go faster on a parrot that doesn't have them. 21:57
Or have a smaller footprint, or..
or, at least, build faster.
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uvtc [Coke]++ 22:07
masak (build faster)++ 22:08
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dalek p/rx-portability: 5ecc011 | jnthn++ | src/ (3 files):
Add nqp::const mechanism.

Allows mapping constants in a backend-independent way.		 23:02
p/rx-portability: b7756b5 | jnthn++ | src/stage0/ (9 files):
Update bootstrap.
p/rx-portability: 081a30f | jnthn++ | src/QRegex/ (2 files):
Lots of pir:: => nqp:: in NFA and Cursor.
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masak 'night, #perl6 23:32
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jnthn rests also...'night 23:48
colomon o/ 23:49

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