»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by diakopter on 6 April 2013.
masak 'night, #perl6 00:09
jnthn sleep & 00:18
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lue S02/Names/Dynamic Lookup: "If the variable is not visible in the caller, it returns failure." should that failure be C<Failure> (ie, does the sentence talk about returning a Failure object) ? 04:34
diakopter lue: pretty sure yes 04:37
lue clarifies
dalek ecs: 5a85c48 | lue++ | S02-bits.pod:
[S02] Minor clarification

Make it clear that a specific type (C<Failure>) is returned instead of something representing a general concept (failure).		 04:46
FROGGS_ .tell pmurias: 'use v5' itself is not a problem, but after doing it, the Perl6::Grammar.statement rule is still the active one, _that_ is a problem because it means a slang cant have its own statement rule 05:17
yoleaux FROGGS_: I'll pass your message to pmurias:.
FROGGS_ .tell pmurias 'use v5' itself is not a problem, but after doing it, the Perl6::Grammar.statement rule is still the active one, _that_ is a problem because it means a slang cant have its own statement rule 05:44
yoleaux FROGGS_: I'll pass your message to pmurias.
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diakopter you're a slang 06:25
r: slang { }
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Method 'new_type' not found for invocant of class 'NQPMu'␤»
diakopter wat.
please don't do this to me rakudo...
the more you break, the more you tempt me to fuzz you all night instead of what I should be working on 06:26
moritz slangs are simply NYI
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diakopter ok. still, a problem that was unknown to me. so just as tempting 06:29
moritz it's a package declarator that doesn't have a meta object associated with it
so %HOW<slang> is empty, meaning it falls back to NQPMu
diakopter ok. so it's NYI. still a problem that was unknown to me... so just as tempting :P 06:30
rnp: say «««x»»» 06:41
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT««« x »»␤»
..niecza v24-35-g5c06e28, pugs: OUTPUT«««x»»␤»
diakopter rnp: say ««x»«x»» 06:42
p6eval rakudo e489af, niecza v24-35-g5c06e28, pugs: OUTPUT««x»«x»␤»
diakopter so why does the last one add spaces 06:43
moritz r: say «««x»»».perl
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«("«", ("«", "x", "»").list, "»")␤»
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FROGGS morning \o/ 06:44
diakopter \o/ <- yawn
FROGGS I'm awake for two hours now and just happy that here is somebody :o) 06:45
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diakopter r: say ««««x»»»» 06:54
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT««« « x » »»␤»
diakopter r: say «««««x»»»»»
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT««« « « x » » »»␤»
diakopter r: say «««««x»»»»».perl
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«("«", ("«", "«", "«", "x", "»", "»", "»").list, "»")␤»
FROGGS std: my $x = 0; until $x++ < 4 { } continue { }
p6eval std 86b102f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/JYm26Qy9Zu line 1:␤------> my $x = 0; until $x++ < 4 { }⏏ continue { }␤ expecting horizontal whitespace␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 44m␤»…
FROGGS std: use v5; my $x = 0; until ($x++ < 4) { } continue { } 06:55
p6eval std 86b102f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/ZzJH5hRuja line 1:␤------> use v5; my $x = 0; until ($x++ < 4) { }⏏ continue { }␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 53m␤»
FROGGS std: use v5; my $x = 0; until ($x++ < 4) { }; continue { }
p6eval std 86b102f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/pz6Za_JhJg line 1:␤------> $x = 0; until ($x++ < 4) { }; continue ⏏{ }␤ expecting any of:␤ p5infix␤ statement modifier␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 53m␤»
diakopter r: say «««»»».DUMP
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«No such method 'package' for invocant of type 'NQPAttribute'␤ in block at src/gen/CORE.setting:939␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:5723␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:5618␤ in method gimme at src/gen/CORE.setting:6039␤ in method eager at sr… 06:56
diakopter .tell japhb dunno: r: say «««»»».DUMP
yoleaux diakopter: I'll pass your message to japhb.
FROGGS feels like I've mostly used 10% of Perl 5 when looking at until/continue 06:59
and other stuff I learn these days
moritz you shouldn't use all Perl 5 features :-) 07:03
FROGGS moritz: ya, for most things it is like: "ohh good that I've never seen it before" 07:06
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dalek : 5f0eeb8 | (Tobias Leich)++ | TODO_compound_statements.md:
added TODO_compound_statements.md
 07:23
: 9102362 | (Tobias Leich)++ | TODO_compound_statements.md:
I dont like md
 07:24
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labster hello o/ 07:26
FROGGS hi labster 07:27
timotimo hello
labster there's unless -> elsif -> else in P5? That's ... different. 07:28
FROGGS it is 07:29
I've read some "rules" like ten years ago that you never should use unless+else, and do it as if+else instead because of readability
doing unless+elsif+else is rather insane 07:30
doing an unless with many ||'s and &&'s is not that good too, adding elsif would be ... well ... 07:31
labster it's not so much "used only 10% of P5" as "only gone 10% down the P5 rabbit hole" 07:32
FROGGS right 07:33
about File::Spec
I really do like the changes! 07:34
the only thing I can argue with are the typos here (first sentence) github.com/labster/p6-File-Spec#case_tolerant and the additional whitespace before VMS right before EOF 07:35
labster++
now somebody should make it a core module :o)
japhb .tell diakopter same problem I'm dealing with re: DUMP(\()) -- it works its way down to a Hash, and then recurses infinitely. I'm betting a Parrot or NQP Hash is getting wrapped in a Perl 6 Hash somehow, and it when it tries to examine the Perl 6 Hash's $!storage and $!descriptor ... 10 GOTO 10. 07:36
yoleaux japhb: I'll pass your message to diakopter.
06:56Z <diakopter> japhb: dunno: r: say «««»»».DUMP
labster Summary for everyone else: I wanted to add a new function set to File::Spec that does almost what splitpath/catpath does. We leave the original set as is -- it keeps all of the characters in the path. And then add a new set which does it with dirname/basename syntax -- which loses trailing slashes, sets dirname and basename to '/' for root, etc. And does it portably. 07:37
The only thing I'm not sure about is the names. currently the splitting one is 'path-components', and the joining one is 'join-path'. 07:38
FROGGS: Yeah, it's going to have to be a core module if IO::Path will work right. Not sure how to get started on that. 07:39
FROGGS labster: what about 'split' and 'join'? 07:41
"The New The Better The Shorter"(tm)
labster join had a previous meaning. I think it was the same as 'catfile'. Which is not quite 'catdir' and definitely not 'catpath'. Not that I'm opposed to changing the meaning. 07:43
diakopter r: say DUMP m!1!
yoleaux 07:36Z <japhb> diakopter: same problem I'm dealing with re: DUMP(\()) -- it works its way down to a Hash, and then recurses infinitely. I'm betting a Parrot or NQP Hash is getting wrapped in a Perl 6 Hash somehow, and it when it tries to examine the Perl 6 Hash's $!storage and $!descriptor ... 10 GOTO 10.
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«No such method 'match' for invocant of type 'Any'␤ in block at /tmp/EedEdOclqf:1␤␤»
labster Also, if we're going to put this in core, should I change all of the underscores to hyphens in the method names? That's what the cool kids are doing these days. 07:46
FROGGS labster: if that is the core-style, thes yes :o) 07:50
diakopter r: say &say.DUMP 07:53
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«Sub<1>(␤ :$!dispatchees(Mu),␤ :$!dispatcher_cache(Mu),␤ :$!dispatcher(Mu),␤ :$!rw(0),␤ :$!inline_info(Mu),␤ :$!yada(0),␤ :$!package(GLOBAL<5>(...)),␤ :$!onlystar(0),␤ :$!dispatch_order(Mu),␤ :$!dispatch_cache(Mu),␤ :$!state_vars(Mu)…
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diakopter r: say .^methods.DUMP.chars 08:02
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«28118␤»
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dalek : c1b6b95 | (Tobias Leich)++ | README.md:
added do-s and don't-s
 08:16
diakopter FROGGS: I'm sorry, goto is a necessity for me. ;) 08:17
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FROGGS hmmm, well then, plans can change :o) 08:17
diakopter do you want an evalbot target for your branch? 08:18
FROGGS YES YES YES!!!
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FROGGS err, but wait 08:19
we need to patch rakudo for that
diakopter hm, I probably shouldn't have asked that if I wasn't willing (well, able) to make it happen
right, it needs a separate build
FROGGS this patch: gist.github.com/FROGGS/5fe2eb96e2515bf02a14
and, cwd must be v5's repo rootdir, PERL6LIB=blib 08:20
"[...] willing (well, able) to make it happen" - do you mean C<goto> or the evalbot thingy ? 08:21
tadzik blib/lib, no? 08:25
FROGGS there is no blib/lib in this repo 08:26
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diakopter FROGGS: both ;) 08:47
FROGGS \o/ 08:50
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diakopter .ask lizmat PM me when you can; thanks 08:51
yoleaux diakopter: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
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dalek : b9c89f6 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (3 files):
support unless+elsif+else
 09:09
: 00e985b | (Tobias Leich)++ | t/spectest.data:
add some comments what is missing
FROGGS r: for 1..10 { next if /3/; say $_ } 09:13
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«1␤2␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤10␤»
FROGGS shouldn't be too hard to support labels...
moritz then please implement them for regular rakudo too :-) 09:17
FROGGS moritz: that's is what I'm doing first :o) 09:18
still searching where 'next' is implemented
ahh, found it
src/NQP/Actions.pm:1563: method term:sym<next>($/) { make QAST::Op.new( :op('control'), :name('next') ) } 09:19
moritz that's NQP's next
rakudo's next is in src/core/control.pm 09:20
FROGGS ohh, k, thanks
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masak forenoon, #perl6 09:43
FROGGS hi masak 09:45
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moritz \o masak 09:48
how's the t2 review proceeding?
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FROGGS <FROGGS> "shouldn't be too hard to support labels..." <---- not true 09:49
timotimo :( 09:50
were you going to build labels for perl6 first and use that in perl5-support code?
FROGGS timotimo: right, since Perl 6 is supposed to have labels too 09:51
but it is not that easy because 'next' adds a pirop 'die 0 .CONTROL_LOOP_NEXT'
so I'm digging now in parrots code
timotimo mhm
i wished i had had labels last month when i went to implement brownian trees 09:52
i should finish that up and put it on rosettacode i think
FROGGS ya, do that 09:53
cool, found "ops.'push_pirop'('goto', redolabel)" within parrots code
spider-mario is rakudo 2013.02 supposed to be buildable against nqp 2013.03? 09:59
moritz not necessarily 10:03
it can happen, but it's not supported
and I have no idea if it works
spider-mario ok, thanks. :) 10:04
I just tried and it failed
I was just wondering whether it was to be expected
the exact error is: 10:05
Method 'post' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::Compiler'
FROGGS spider-mario: most times one adds a feature to nqp and rakudo, then using an older rakudo will work
timotimo yeah, the stages have been renamed somewhere along the way
FROGGS but sometimes (when refactoring something for example), things will break
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moritz finished reading "Harry Potter and the Natural 20" 10:35
very amusing fanfic
... if you know a bit about pen&paper role-play gaming 10:36
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dalek p-jvm-prep: d489e2e | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/SerializationWriter.java:
Fix serialization tests.
 10:37
timotimo jnthn has tuits again \o/ 10:38
jnthn Yes, just need to catch up with all the things folks want me to look at now ;) 10:39
timotimo sorry =x
FROGGS .oO( and things which went wrong in his absence ) 10:44
tadzik moritz: how is it compared to hpatmor? 10:46
moritz tadzik: not rational at all :-) 10:47
tadzik haha
moritz and the plot isn't quite as intricate 10:48
more on the funny side, and less on the deep side
tadzik is there an epub-y thing somewhere?
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timotimo changing my brownian tree implementation to only spawn new particles on the very outside makes the result look *very* different, but also prettier 11:09
1400 seconds :| 11:10
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dalek p-jvm-prep: 0f21904 | jnthn++ | / (5 files):
Add partial P6bigint REPR and some basic ops.

This is enough to pass the first 5 of 60-bigint.t. Note that P6bigint currently is not able to embed itself into a P6opaque.		 11:42
p-jvm-prep: cc05609 | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
Basic bigint arithmetic operations.
colomon \o/ 11:48
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dalek p-jvm-prep: 2a293ae | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
Bitwise operations on big integers.
 11:53
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nwc10 jnthn: oh, "worked" on my machine (the usual) except that you moved the goalposts again. botherit 12:04
and I have to go out
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cognominal latest parrot or rakudo is broken on my mac: gist.github.com/cognominal/5330328 12:37
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cognominal disregard, it seems I have accidentally modified some file. 12:42
nope, that's a generated file 12:43
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timotimo did you make really-really-clean twice? 12:48
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cognominal I am recompiling after having done a make realclean in rakudo/ rakudo/parrot and rakudo/nqp 12:51
timotimo but does realclean really make it clean enough? >_< 12:52
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cognominal "make test" passes. The problem seems with the Perl 6 shell. Will see if "make spectest" succeeds. 12:59
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spider-mario timotimo: when in doubt, one can use git clean 13:03
timotimo indeed 13:04
i had to do that once to get parrot to build
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cognominal running manually perl6 was running the wrong perl6. 13:11
Not sure why it is not installed (anymore?) in my /usr/local/bin where the stale Perl 6 (3 days old) were 13:13
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spider-mario I install mine in ~/.perl6/ 13:15
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masak we have no release manager for Rakudo this month. who would like the great honor of being release manager? 14:10
(FROGGS has May. I'll volunteer for June if someone signs up for April) 14:11
er, FROGGS++
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gtodd masak: I would do it except no one knows who I am and I know nothing about release management ... I'm willing to learn but preferably by watching at this point :-D 14:55
masak that's fine.
release management is really easy.
but if you prefer to go one or two cycles just watching, that's OK :) 14:56
timotimo this syntax for regexes has been scrapped since the apocalypse, right? / @kids := [(\S+) \s+]* / 14:59
in favor of $<kids>=..., afaict?
masak yeah, I'd say so. 15:03
timotimo but there's no way to say "i'll be matching keys and values, so please turn this into a hsah for me", short of adding a closure? 15:05
masak sounds like something I'd be doing in an action method. 15:08
timotimo sure 15:09
gtodd masak: ok :-) 15:26
masak: one of the challenges in some projects is coming up with release mottos, code names, etc. I watched a lot of Monty Python and took several linguistics course so it's not like I'd be completely useless 15:28
masak :)
gtodd heads off to subscribe to various mailing lists 15:29
masak in our case it's just the PerlMongers group that needs to be chosen.
gtodd++
gtodd masak: Oh and I have a book about ITIL3 out of the library that isn't due back for 12 days so ... ;-)
hah I made myself laugh
raiph masak: i'm curious about your reaction to my sense that action methods remind me of phasers... 15:30
masak raiph: they feel like the same category of thing, yes. but they are attached at runtime, and are meant to be a (replaceable) backend to the grammar. so they're a bit different too. 15:32
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pmichaud note that it's possible to cut unofficial releases to get a feel for what it's like. 15:34
thanks to git clone, anyone can fork the rakudo repo and go through all of the steps needed to cut a release. 15:35
including commits :)
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masak yes. that's a really good point. 15:41
gtodd: if you do that, I volunteer to stand by to help if you get stuck.
gtodd: if you succeed, I could very well sign you up for April ;)
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gtodd masak: there appears to be PM in Ottawa ... with a possibly dormant website ;-) 15:47
pmichaud: good idea ... I will release it to myself a few times first ... this will allow me to find out what git is :-) 15:49
cheers
raiph masak: thanks
masak gtodd: oh, git is conceptually easy. it's a way to snapshot your file system at significant moments. the fact that it then organizes these snapshots (yours and others) in a useful way, is really mostly a nice bonus. ;) 15:50
skids The hard part about git is finding a good starting point for reading docs. 15:52
timotimo try gitinit?
www.atlassian.com/git/tutorial <- have not tried it yet, but it has colors 15:53
skids There are some OK tutorials.
timotimo tom.preston-werner.com/2009/05/19/t...rable.html - i remember liking this very much 15:54
gtodd masak: true ... the fact that they are so easy and fast lets you get pretty fancy with zfs snapshots ... easy to see the fs as change managed dataset and - vecie versa - vcs as a way to manage a file system
ok thanks
skids timotimo: the first one looks much better than anything I could find when I first took up git. 15:57
gtodd I like the parable in that the style of presentation feels perlish 15:59
but the atlassian tutorial is thorough 16:00
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timotimo the first step to understand git: implement your own dvcs :P 16:06
arnsholt I quite like hg-init as well 16:08
They have a very good SVN reeducation section that helped me understand how to properly work with a DVCS 16:09
timotimo hg makes me mad 16:14
arnsholt I've never actually used Mercurial 16:15
The hg-init SVN reeducation was just useful to me =)
timotimo i agree on that part 16:18
dalek : e55045e | (Tobias Leich)++ | README.md:
fix markup issue
 16:21
timotimo hg has the infuriating property of deciding for me that some things should really not be done 16:23
like changing history before pushing is a biiiig no no
and one time i was told to delete my repo and clone it anew to get rid of commits that hg was intent on pushing to the remote 16:24
apparently now i can do something with mercurial plugins to get rid of a commit and all floolowing commits, which is nice, but git has had that for ages in core :|
spider-mario I don’t like that in hg either 16:26
I also love git’s staging area
FROGGS std: use v5; { 1 } continue { 2 } 16:27
p6eval std 86b102f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/bdEGbNxnWq line 1:␤------> use v5; { 1 }⏏ continue { 2 }␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 52m␤»
FROGGS std: use v5; if (1) { 1 } continue { 2 } 16:28
p6eval std 86b102f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/LXR8NuT4Yw line 1:␤------> use v5; if (1) { 1 }⏏ continue { 2 }␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 52m␤»
timotimo what does that syntax even mean? 16:30
FROGGS timotimo: the continue block runs right after the block before 16:32
and I believe it doesn't get executed if the first block comes to a 'redo', 'last' or 'next'
but it's a bit strange IMO 16:33
timotimo mhm 16:34
geekosaur I thought it did for next 16:36
in fact that's kinda the point of it
FROGGS ya, looks like
(reading Perl 5's test file for that
) 16:37
so at 'last' is the only one which gets rig of it
rid
"it is always executed just before the conditional is about to be evaluated again" 16:39
*the conditional of the main block
that makes it clear 16:40
timotimo ah, that makes some sense 16:43
is there any special trick to using regcomp to get an nqp compiler and creating a class in there and then exposing that class to the outer perl6 code? can i just create a dynamic variable before running the nqp code, thenset the value inside and grab the class from that variable for instance? 16:45
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FROGGS damnit, the same trap like before... I can't add an continue-block to statement_control<while>/<until>, because it still uses these grammar tokens from Perl 6 land -.- 16:53
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timotimo "load_language" couldn't find a compiler module for the language 'nqp' - my mistake? 16:56
FROGGS no idea
timotimo someone else have an old perl6 at hand? 16:58
FROGGS no, I'm on bleeding edge :o)
or better: :o( 16:59
timotimo nope, my older perl6 doesn't do it either
oh, maybe regcomp and all that only works in nqp? 17:00
r: my $comp := regcomp__Ps('perl6'); $comp.eval("say 'hi'"); 17:01
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ regcomp__Ps used at line 1␤␤»
timotimo r: my $comp := pir::regcomp__Ps('perl6'); $comp.eval("say 'hi'");
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Mu in string context␤use of uninitialized value of type Mu in string context␤===SORRY!===␤error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected PREG, expecting '(' ('$P5005')␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 206065058␤␤»
timotimo o_O
jnthn Think you want nqp::getcomp 17:03
timotimo that may be the case
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timotimo when i try to nqp::getcomp perl6 it works, but not nqp (i get a null pmc back or something?) 17:06
and pir::load_language__0s('nqp') doesn't help either
jnthn I guess the NQP compiler isn't loaded since it's not needed
timotimo is there an nqp equivalent to load_language__0s just like getcomp? 17:07
jnthn r: nqp::loadbytecode('nqp')
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«"load_bytecode" couldn't find file 'nqp'␤ in block at /tmp/2l7XMhvjAx:1␤␤»
jnthn r: nqp::loadbytecode('nqp.pbc')
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«"load_bytecode" couldn't find file 'nqp.pbc'␤ in block at /tmp/0EEyfmBHQO:1␤␤»
jnthn r: nqp::loadbytecode('NQP.pbc')
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«"load_bytecode" couldn't find file 'NQP.pbc'␤ in block at /tmp/QiGO3KRYP4:1␤␤»
jnthn Hm
timotimo probably would have to give the absolute path? :( 17:08
jnthn I thought that may do it, but apparently not...
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dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 24 commits to nqp-jvm-prep/asm_port by jnthn 17:21
tadzik question: would anyone mind panda becoming more of a cpanm than CPAN.pm?
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moritz I'm sure somebody would mind; but the majority of user surely prefers a simple (albeit opinionated) software over the complicated mess that CPAN.pm is 17:23
tadzik other question: how much do you use the ability to browse the module ecosystem that panda provides?
side note: I'm not removing it :)
timotimo are you refering to modules.perl6.org or does panda have some kind of browsing feature? 17:25
japhb jnthn, what is the asm_port branch?
tadzik hah
'panda list', 'panda search' and all that
timotimo oh, right
tadzik list is quite useful because it shows what's installed 17:26
moritz I've used 'panda search' occasionally
japhb tadzik, I use it all the time
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tadzik ok, cool 17:26
japhb tadzik, in what sense do you want to make panda more like cpanm?
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jnthn japhb: A branch donaldh++ has been working on to replace BCEL with ASM (asm.ow2.org) for code generation 17:26
japhb ah!
tadzik japhb: I don't, that's not quite its goal. But I'm working on a bit of an experimental rewrite of panda, and I brought it to a state where it behaves like cpanm :) 17:27
I think that might be a useful tool for folks
so it doesn't use any kind of statefiles, projectfiles, utilizes the feather.perl6.nl:3000/module/Acme;Meow api and all that
japhb Woah, when did that API come into existence? 17:28
No statefile ... how do we recreate our installs after rebuilding Rakudo? 17:29
tadzik japhb: it was there since I created that website 17:30
I thought that might be useful one day, never used it
timotimo hehehe
tadzik japhb: we won't then. This thing would be like cpanm, fire and forget
may be useful for oneshot installations 17:31
like 'I need SVG::Plot for this small script, but I don't want to install it generally'
redpanda -L extlib SVG::Plot, done
BigBear How do i get the equivalent of perldoc Text::CSV or perldoc Form to see how to use the new perl 6 Text::CSV and perl 6 Form (that replaces good ool Format)? 17:32
japhb tadzik: -L specifies an install lib tree? 17:33
tadzik, and does redpanda still use the Pies API? 17:35
tadzik no, I didn't make it so
japhb likes the idea of various opinionated (or not) frontends that all talk to the same underlying API
... but that API need not be Pies.
tadzik actually, I don't think this Pies idea in hindsight
I don't think it ever once became useful
it was just creating additional work when adding features to panda 17:36
japhb tadzik, I think the big problem was designing the API before designing multiple frontends. I find APIs like that often come better from refactorings than Big Up Front Design.
tadzik it either didn't work out, or I couldn't use it to my advantage
hmm, maybe 17:37
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japhb Build a couple different install tools (maybe just panda and redpanda are enough, maybe you need a third, I dunno), then refactor the common bits into an API. 17:37
JMHO, of course 17:38
tadzik sure, a valuablue one
maybe I just approached all this from the wrong angle
anyway, I'll first try to reach the goal of having an awesome module manager, then I'll think about the details :) 17:39
hoelzro howdy #perl6 folk 17:40
BigBear p6doc Form tells me 17:41
No POD found in /opt/local/lib/parrot/4.10.0/languages/perl6/site/lib/Form.pm is there another way to see how to use the new Form or perl 6 Text::CSV for which p6doc gives me same error message about no POD in the Text/CSV.pm?
hoelzro what happened to the 2013.03 release? =(
tadzik BigBear: do you have it installed? 17:42
BigBear tadzik: , yes I do tests passed and it installed
tadzik does that file exist in your filesystem, can you read it/ 17:43
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BigBear tadzik: yes it exists and just checked I can also read it (I am root - only right after the install ;-) 17:45
tadzik oh, maybe this file indeed has no Pod inside? :) 17:46
dalek c: 8999263 | tadzik++ | bin/p6doc:
Pod is the new POD
 17:47
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BigBear tadzik: a grep -i pod /opt/local/lib/parrot/4.10.0/languages/perl6/site/lib/Form.pm or in /opt/local/lib/parrot/4.10.0/languages/perl6/site/lib/Text/CSV.pm returns nothing 17:51
tadzik BigBear: it's entirely possible that a module is not documented, and so you'll get no documentation :/ 17:52
BigBear: could you install File::Find and try on that?
I remember writing docs for that one :)
BigBear tadzik: ;-) OK - will see what happens with that ;-) 17:54
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BigBear tadzik: panda install File::Find 17:55
resolve stage failed for File::Find: Project File::Find not found in the ecosystem
tadzik duh
oh
it's in the File::Tools distribution, sorry 17:56
I really ought to split those
it's annoying for everytone
BigBear tadzik: I tried p6doc File::Find::Dupliactes instead and that does indeed give me a Pod-like output. So I guess I am out of lukc for the new perl 6 Form and the new Text::CSV that panda installed then? 17:58
tadzik why File::Find::Duplicates?
I didn't know we have that :) 17:59
apparently we have, okay :)
labster++
BigBear: yeah, not every module is documented :/
it'd definitely help to nag module authors about it:) 18:00
colomon has not documented any of his modules.... 18:02
BigBear tadzik: panda list | grep -i find gave me File::Find::Duplicates ;-) 18:03
lue hello world o/ 18:04
tadzik BigBear: ha, nice :) 18:07
also answering my prior question about 'list' usage
BigBear does perl6 irc channel have it's pastebin somewhere? I would show you the other output I got from installing File::Tools which succeeded but then canot fidn it's file or Pod for that matter. 18:08
japhb BigBear, use gist
BigBear japhb: how do I use it? or where is gist? 18:09
Tene gist.github.com/ 18:10
sprunge.us/ is pretty nice too
japhb gist.github.com/
Tene feh. https. :P 18:11
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japhb BigBear, gist allows either private (hashed ID) or public (simple integer ID) pastes. 18:11
BigBear thanks - here is the output of me seemingly succeeding to install File::Tools , but then not finding it nor the embedded Pod content I was searvhing for. gist.github.com/anonymous/5331694 18:15
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tadzik yes, that's my mistake again 18:17
File::Tools contains 2 modules inside: File::Find and Shell::Command
so you install File::Tools, but get 2 other things 18:18
this is stupid and it's already reported to the module author
(me)
dalek p-jvm-prep/asm_port: f6b38e8 | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/jast2bc/JASTToJVMBytecode.java:
Fix exception handler code-gen.
 18:21
p-jvm-prep/asm_port: 977809b | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/jast2bc/JASTToJVMBytecode.java:
Complete (hopefully) todo local handling.
p-jvm-prep/asm_port: 468cb5f | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/jast2bc/JASTToJVMBytecode.java:
Add missing native array cases.
p-jvm-prep/asm_port: 71e44a5 | jnthn++ | lib/QAST/JASTCompiler.nqp:
Fix incorrect array instruction usage.
nwc10 jnthn: "the usual" on master 18:24
should I try that branch?
jnthn nwc10: Not yet
Still got some unbusting to do
I've gone from all of t/qast failing to just one test in one test file failing, though... 18:25
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japhb nice! 18:25
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jnthn It makes it through the build but unfortunately the resulting NQPJVM doesn't work 18:26
nwc10 it compiles - ship it! 18:27
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BigBear tadzik: I commented some more on gist.github.com/anonymous/5331694 , why does p6doc only parse half of the line and stop at '4'? BTW File::Find that one gets when installing File::Tools does have embedded Pod. Thanks. 18:33
cognominal probably the META.info of a git package should include a entry for the names of the module/package/classes it installs 18:35
BigBear Is TestML a bad idea or not likley to be fixed soonish ? Googled and it seems to have been broken for months now? I woiuld quite like to install XXX and YAML but they both depend on TestML which doesn't even build so I can't install it and skip the test even. 18:36
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ingy hi BigBear 18:37
:)
BigBear: maybe join #testml 18:38
BigBear: Oh I see, you don't want to use TestM, it's just getting in your way? 18:40
tadzik moritz: *poke* 18:41
(comments under gist.github.com/anonymous/5331694)
18:41 berekuk left
moritz takes a look 18:42
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moritz has no idea what's going wrong 18:44
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BigBear ingy: if I show you the error it fails with - do you think somebody can "fix" that so it builds, or is that perl6 build error only the peak of an ice-berg? 18:47
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dalek : 5d4f654 | (Tobias Leich)++ | README.md:
make clear what v5 is made for
 18:53
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BigBear tadzik: I just installed File::Tools under latest rakudo star under win 7 pro now . which was first panda perl6 module on that install , but now all toher attempts of using panda fail from Shell::Command with : 19:01
perl6 panda install Text::CSV Form
===SORRY!===
Missing or wrong version of dependency 'c:/rakudo/lib/parrot/4.10.0/languages/p
rl6/lib/Shell/Command.pm' 19:02
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dalek p-jvm-prep/asm_port: a23e7ec | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/runtime/ExceptionHandling.java:
Better reporting on startup crashes.
 19:04
p-jvm-prep/asm_port: 887e811 | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/jast2bc/JASTToJVMBytecode.java:
Use correct class name format in anewarray.
p-jvm-prep/asm_port: e6ccfd8 | jnthn++ | Makefile:
Don't need the debug-all version.
jnthn nwc10: selftest seems to pass on the branch now \o/ 19:05
nwc10: Feel free to give it a run, if you have time
nwc10 the machine has 8 cores and a load average of 0.42 19:06
so I think that it has time...
tadzik BigBear: hold on. File::Tools installed fine, but now everything else fails? 19:07
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tadzik also, File::Tools definitely comes with Rakudo Star, so you didn't need to install it 19:08
and also, how is that windows but with root and /opt?
BigBear tadzik: yes. that's the gist of it. will go and remove the file::tools files and see if panda revives. My earlier stuff was on mac os and now I switched to windows to see if I have more luck with TestML on that. 19:09
tadzik ah
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tadzik panda is hard to maintain :| 19:13
I should stop bitching and fix it, I guess 19:14
masak tadzik++ # maintaining panda 19:15
tadzik I try
masak tadzik: as far as I can see, you're doing a great job.
tadzik I did some big refactors today, and stumbled upon the wall between "make things better" and "don't break panda for users" 19:16
masak tadzik: I know it's thankless sometimes. but unless it's patently obvious to you, panda is part of a really important toolchain, and likely to remain so for a while.
tadzik it should be entirely possible to achieve both though :)
yes, that's why I really don't want to break it in any way
masak tadzik: panda is awesome, and, by transitivity, you are awesome :D
nwc10 jnthn: a failure on make test:
t/qast/qast_6model.t ......... 10/21 Unhandled exception: This representation can not box a native int in <anon> in <anon>
tadzik I'm surprised almost every other day that someone uses it
nwc10 (oh, with a few more newlines than that) 19:17
tadzik that someone I've never heard of uses it
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tadzik I now wonder, when I say "don't break panda to users", does that also mean not breking the API between parts of panda 19:17
emmentaler uses some, possibly people use them too
masak: thanks for the warm words :) 19:18
nwc10 jnthn: and prove --exec="java -cp .;bin;3rdparty/asm/asm-4.1.jar NQPJVM" t/nqp/*.t t/serialization/*.t 19:19
masak emmentaler is likely the only big downstream consumer right now.
nwc10 every test fails like this:
masak tadzik: why do you want to break API compat?
nwc10 t/nqp/01-literals.t ............. Error: Could not find or load main class NQPJVM
t/nqp/01-literals.t ............. Dubious, test returned 1 (wstat 256, 0x100)
No subtests run
masak tadzik: and can you do it in steps, perhaps deprecating stuff over a period, and then removing it? 19:20
nwc10 that prove like is what "make selftest" runs
so, doesn't work on my machine. For some reason that it not quite obvious to me
BigBear tadzik: it was my fault for breaking panda under win, I did not check if File::Tools were already installed , first. Don't be too hard on yourself. you are doing a great job.
tadzik masak: I think Panda::Resources is madness and insanity
and it couples everything to an annoying degree 19:21
BigBear: it's alright :) Actually, I think I can blame your problem on precompilation itself, not panda ;)
masak tadzik: what do you envision instead? 19:22
tadzik BigBear: I guess the second File::Tools got installed to another location than the R* one, and Rakudo got confused loading that
masak: I think those modules (Panda::Builer, ::Tester etc) are build around the wrong concept. It occured to me on FPW last year: the only thing they need to know of is the directory they operate on
it then makes it super-easy to test them, to make individual tools of them etc 19:23
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tadzik they chdir somewhere, do work, chdir back when they started. No external resources necessary 19:23
nwc10 aha. Java hateful. There seems to be no command line option to avoid needing to know whether the path separator is : or ; :-(
I have a local hack commit on master
tadzik right now they're given Panda::Resources on initialization, then Pies::Project, then feed Project to Resources to know which dir should they operate on 19:24
they're actually completely stateless, and there's no need for them to be objects at all
nwc10 jnthn: selftest successful when I change ; to : 19:26
tadzik masak: so that makes it hard, because I need to throw around how Panda talks to its delegates 19:28
masak tadzik: as long as you don't break emmentaler, I think you'll be fine. 19:29
tadzik I guess so
masak tadzik: although you might want to blog about it, just in case there are "darkpan" clients hiding in the woods :)
tadzik right :) 19:30
I will. So far I'm silently working locally :)
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FROGGS when do NEXT phasers run? after the loops body? 19:30
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Juerd IIRC after each iteration, including the last. 19:32
FROGGS hmmm
Juerd But it's been a while :)
So I might simply remember it wrong.
FROGGS r: for 1..3 -> $x { say $x; NEXT { say "n" } } 19:33
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«1␤n␤2␤n␤3␤n␤»
nwc10 jnthn: selftest successful, nqptest "the usual", t/qast/qast_6model.t fails test 12 Unhandled exception: This representation can not box a native int
moritz r: for 1..3 -> $x { say $x; LEAVE { say "n" } }
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«1␤n␤2␤n␤3␤n␤»
FROGGS r: for 1..3 -> $x { say $x; FIRST { say "n" } }
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«n␤1␤2␤3␤»
FROGGS r: for 1..3 -> $x { say $x; LAST { say "n" } }
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤n␤»
FROGGS I'd need NEXT minus LAST 19:34
BigBear tadzik: did a msi "repair" , but it is still broken. which pre-compilaiton issue was created when I installed the File::Tools on R*? What should I go and delete? is it the 'c:/rakudo/lib/parrot/4.10.0/languages/perl6/lib/Shell/Command.pir'? or is it C:\rakudo\lib\parrot\4.10.0\languages\perl6\lib\Shell\Command.pir I shoudl delete now?
Juerd FROGGS: ENTER, and ignore the first? 19:35
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Juerd No, s/ENTER/LEAVE/ 19:35
Hm, no, ENTER.
FROGGS no, I'd need: 1 n 2 n 3 19:36
Juerd: for this: perldoc.perl.org/functions/continue.html
jnthn nwc10: Thanks; I also get that qast_6model.t one. Think that's the last thing I need to find before I merge this branch.
FROGGS so yeah, ENTER but not FRIST
*FIRST 19:37
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tadzik BigBear: hold on, there's an option I want you to try 19:38
BigBear: could you try RAKUDO_MODULE_DEBUG=1 <perl6 something something>?
Juerd r: for 1..3 -> $x { say $x; ENTER { say "n" if (state $foo)++ } } 19:39
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«1␤n␤2␤n␤3␤»
BigBear tadzik: sure, I'd be glad too ...
Juerd FROGGS: That's what you wanted, right? 19:40
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Juerd Probably not the best way to do this. Would probably go wrong if executed twice, so a regular lexical may be better. 19:41
tadzik BigBear++ 19:42
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masak r: for 1..3 -> $x { say $x; ENTER say "n" if (state $foo)++ } 19:43
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«1␤n␤2␤n␤3␤»
masak r: for 1..3 -> $x { say $x; say "n" if (state $foo)++ }
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«1␤2␤n␤3␤n␤»
masak r: for 1..3 -> $x { say "n" if (state $foo)++; say $x }
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«1␤n␤2␤n␤3␤»
Juerd *facepalm*
That makes sense :) 19:44
masak I'm glad ;)
FROGGS right, now make an AST out of that :o)
(no worry, I'll do that) 19:45
BigBear tadzik: OK output of perl6 panda list shown under the old thread gist.github.com/anonymous/5331694 hope that is what you were after , if not re-specify please.
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marmay Hello, I've got a question regarding Perl6 / Rakudo. I would like to do some pattern matching within an action method. Rakudo complains, because I try to overwrite $/, at least I think that this is the reason why it is complaining. Is there a way to do pattern matching in an action method? 19:49
masak marmay: an excellent question. 19:50
marmay: I remember running into this issue a year or so ago on Niecza. Niecza allows it, but overwrites $/ (to my great surprise and disappointment) 19:51
FROGGS marmay: you could use another variable as $/ within your methods signature as a workaround
masak marmay: but I can't claim to know the "right answer" here. in some way I want the cake and eat it, too.
that is, both re-entrant pattern matching, and non-clobbered $/ 19:52
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jnthn If you declare "$/ is copy" or so in the signautre you can overwrite it, but that's probably not entirely helpful... 19:54
tadzik BigBear: ah, yes. It loads Shell::Command and Fil::Find from site/ (c:/rakudo/lib/parrot/4.10.0/languages/perl6/site/lib/Shell
marmay FROGGS: This does not seem to work.
tadzik ...but everything else from R* installation
so things break 19:55
marmay jnthn: Just noticed this, yes. Not so helpful. :-)
FROGGS marmay: in what way?
tadzik that's less than awesome, I know :/
FROGGS marmay: you need to rename the $<variable>-vars too
tadzik and it's probably broken on unixes too for the same reason
moritz?
FROGGS marmay: because $<variable> is a shorthand for $/<variable>
moritz tadzik?
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marmay FROGGS: for method( $x ) { make ~$x } I get: "Cannot bind attributes in a type object", for $/ it just works. 19:56
moritz was very muc distracted with parenting for the last ~2h
jnthn make also expects to set $/ 19:57
$m.make(~$x) # would do it
moritz r: grammar A { token TOP { a+ } }; A.parse('aa', :actions(class { method TOP ($x) { $x.make(~$x) } })).say 19:58
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«｢aa｣␤␤»
moritz r: grammar A { token TOP { a+ } }; A.parse('aa', :actions(class { method TOP ($x) { make(~$x) } })).say
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«Cannot bind attributes in a type object␤ in sub make at src/gen/CORE.setting:10844␤ in method TOP at /tmp/nreMIFb2rB:1␤ in any !reduce at src/stage2/QRegex.nqp:714␤ in any !cursor_pass at src/stage2/QRegex.nqp:678␤ in regex TOP at /tmp/nreMIFb2rB:1␤ in method…
jnthn tbh though, I'd probably move the logic that wants to do the pattern matching etc. into some other private method that I pass things to, or a subroutine nested inside of my action method.
tadzik moritz: yes, there's a problem with our CUSTOM_LIB business
I don't quite know what to do from there
moritz what's the problem?
tadzik we install R*, and everything in languages/perl6/lib
dalek p-jvm-prep/asm_port: fa800ba | jnthn++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/reprs/P6int.java:
Fix typo; unbreaks qast_6model.t.
jnthn nwc10: Blah, was a typo. :) 19:59
tadzik then the user panda-installs one of the Panda deps, like File::Find
that ends up in site/
then the moduleloader loads some things from site, and some from languages/perl6/lib
jnthn nwc10: So, should be clean now. :)
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moritz well, there are three possible solutions 20:00
1) require exact versions (and teach rakudo multi-version module handling)
2) teach rakudo to automatically re-precompile with the updated dependencies 20:01
3) don't precompile
BigBear sorry stepping outside for ~ 30 minutes or so - will check back after - to see if I can help or test anything ....
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moritz 4) fudge the installed modules to narrow down @*INC to only contain perl (and not site) libs 20:02
tadzik moritz: I guess 2) is the desired solution eventually
moritz aye
tadzik we've been to 3) already, it was sloooow :) 20:03
moritz I know
in the past few months I've been very close to attacking 2) several times
tadzik hmm, hold on 20:04
I just thought "1) yeah, but we never change versions", and that's the piont too
marmay jnthn, moritz: Thanks for your help. It works as expected.
tadzik those are exactly the same Shell/Command.pm
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BigBear tadzik: two more questions. It did not seem to brek under mac os x , but maybe my perl6 there did not have a pre-built File::Tools ? will investigate. but also on windows I have 4 Command.pm files , of which only two count, will add location and size info to the gist link, but the R* one and the one from File::Tols differ in size quite a bit? So maybe it is a version mismatch in windows... 20:39
...between your module and the R* pre-built one?
tadzik: pasted file info from under windows in gist.github.com/anonymous/5331694 20:44
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lizmat odd discrepancy I just noticed: README in rakudo mentions "make spectest", and not "make test" 20:51
yoleaux 08:51Z <diakopter> lizmat: PM me when you can; thanks
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lizmat whereas the output of configure mentions "make test" and not "make spectest: 20:52
*"
diakopter (ignore that msg from yoleaux) :D
lizmat yes, I figured that 20:53
can you tell yoleaux to not pass a message on later?
diakopter seems leaves out the date if it's on the same day; I wonder if it includes the date if it's not the same day
.commands 20:54
yoleaux Commands are divided into categories: general, services, admin, api, demos. Use .commands <category> to get a list of the commands in each.
BigBear tadzik: done a diff between the two from lib and site and they are not only of different size but they are definitly different. appended diff -du at end of gist.github.com/anonymous/5331694
BigBear: is going to rest ... will check back again tomorrow 20:56
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lizmat .commands demos 21:02
yoleaux Commands in demos: crash, flood, wait, wait-crash. Use .help to get information about them.
jnthn .flood the earth, but let noah survive
yoleaux jnthn: Sorry, this command is admin-only.
jnthn "admin" indeed :P
colomon :)
masak :D 21:03
tadzik BigBear: sorry, was afk. Gotta sleep now, will look at it tomorrows 21:05
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BigBear tadzik: one last comment for the day. jsut finnished cheking under mac os x and I have two Command.pm files of different sizes, just like under windows, but the perl6 panda something commands still work my installation did not break it there? 21:05
tadzik I dunno :)
tadzik sleeps
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lizmat gnight tadzik! 21:06
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masak 'night, #perl6 21:14
lizmat night masak
diakopter o/
japhb night masak (and belatedly tadzik)!
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lizmat night #perl6! 21:51
diakopter o/
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kurahaupo good morning #perl6 22:14
FROGGS hi kurahaupo 22:15
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felher Good night, good people :) 22:59
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grondilu rn: say 2 Rxx rand 23:17
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«0.852463807768316 0.852463807768316␤» 23:18
..niecza v24-35-g5c06e28: OUTPUT«0.92083557924294634 0.92083557924294634␤»
grondilu was expecting two different numbers
r: say rand xx 2
p6eval rakudo e489af: OUTPUT«0.395225263058336 0.586990305959386␤»
grondilu see?
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