»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 3 May 2013.
sorear um. ok. 00:00
TimToady r: say q;
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀S␀␀␀O␀␀␀R␀␀␀R␀␀␀Y␀␀␀!␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀␤␀␀␀C␀␀␀o␀␀␀u␀␀␀l␀␀␀d␀␀␀n␀␀␀'␀␀␀t␀␀␀ ␀␀␀f􏿽xE2
diakopter r: q.chars
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀S␀␀␀O␀␀␀R␀␀␀R␀␀␀Y␀␀␀!␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀␤␀␀␀C␀␀␀o␀␀␀u␀␀␀l␀␀␀d␀␀␀n␀␀␀'␀␀␀t␀␀␀ ␀␀␀f􏿽xE2
sorear it's a sorry message.
TimToady something tells me the quote nibbler is emitting UTF-32
sorear you have a syntax error.
r: sub bob($x) { say $x.perl }; bob q 00:01
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«""␤»
sorear r: say eval('q').perl
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«""␤»
sorear rn: say q.foo.
camelia rakudo 37c762, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«foo␤»
sorear rn: say q'foo
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀S␀␀␀O␀␀␀R␀␀␀R␀␀␀Y␀␀␀!␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀␤␀␀␀C␀␀␀o␀␀␀u␀␀␀l␀␀␀d␀␀␀n␀␀␀'␀␀␀t␀␀␀ ␀␀␀f􏿽xE2
..niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'q'foo' used at line 1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1443 (die @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 37) ␤ at /ho…
TimToady r: say eval("q\0").perl
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀S␀␀␀O␀␀␀R␀␀␀R␀␀␀Y␀␀␀!␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀␤␀␀␀C␀␀␀o␀␀␀u␀␀␀l␀␀␀d␀␀␀n␀␀␀'␀␀␀t␀␀␀ ␀␀␀f􏿽xE2
sorear seems to be a problem more generally with unterminated quotes 00:02
TimToady yes, the quote nibbler
but it's also treating bare q as if there a '' after it
r: s// 00:03
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Null regex not allowed␤at /tmp/Z_f4cWG7C5:1␤------> s/⏏/␤Malformed replacement part; couldn't find final $stop␤at /tmp/Z_f4cWG7C5:1␤------> s//⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ …
TimToady hah
r: s/foo/
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed replacement part; couldn't find final $stop␤at /tmp/YlzEITAi1w:1␤------> s/foo/⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤ infix stopper…
sorear r: s
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Null regex not allowed␤at /tmp/OuHiP8bqr2:1␤------> s⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤»
sorear r: tr
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ tr used at line 1␤␤»
TimToady bare s is doing the s'' trick, I guess
sorear r: s' 00:04
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/dmvHHdi6PW:1␤------> s'⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤»
sorear but s doesn't/shouldn't be using the quote nibbler at all
TimToady I don't mean '' literally, just that somehow it returns a null stirng
sorear regexes aren't strings
r: tr'
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/bsdcaydyTt:1␤------> tr⏏'␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix␤ statement end␤ statement modifier␤ …
sorear umm.
TimToady tr() '' is what it's thinking 00:05
r: m
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Null regex not allowed␤at /tmp/gcTXEPreuE:1␤------> m⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤»
TimToady wonders if rakudo is cheating on regex and doing a two-pass algo somehow 00:06
but maybe it switches to regex grammar after finding the opener 00:07
the opener finder could be shared with quotes and regex
00:08 thou left
TimToady apparently tr doesn't use the same one though, or backtracks out to do tr as a sub instead 00:08
r: tr//bar/
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/KLjvqh8NUE:1␤------> tr//bar/⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix␤»
TimToady r: tr/foo/bar/
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/9nXfyVD1qo:1␤------> tr/foo/bar/⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix␤»
TimToady that's just borken parsing, I guess 00:09
r: tr/foo/bar/;
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Bogus statement␤at /tmp/EF0Uf9C8Kl:1␤------> tr/foo/bar/⏏;␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-…
diakopter is in the enviable? position of having followed this parser rabbit hole a few times before while braindead fuzzing, but unfortunately doesn't remember where it leads still
TimToady I guess rakudo doesn't really attempt to parse tr/// yet
diakopter r: my \tr::tr = tr::tr/tr::tr!tr::eval!!::-7' 00:13
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Method 'ast' not found for invocant of class 'NQPMu'␤»
diakopter rakudo: you're an NQPMu 00:14
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared name:␤ NQPMu used at line 1␤Undeclared routines:␤ an used at line 1␤ you're used at line 1␤␤»
TimToady
.oO("This is the Cosmic All. What are you doing here?!?")
 00:15
(message from Dungeon Definition Language if you ended up in the room that contains all other rooms)
diakopter
.oO("why do you look so much like me^W I do?")
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TimToady Why are you so much taller than him? <-- normal English, and why it's 'than me', not 'than I' 00:19
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TimToady "People who are taller than I should duck" <- bogus 00:20
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TimToady "People who are taller than me should duck." <- perfectly fine 00:21
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sorear than me, than I am - both fie 00:22
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labster "Ducks who are taller than me are mutants." 00:23
diakopter apologizes to #perl6 for tormenting TimToady with an allusion to a knock-down,throw-down on Sunday 00:24
er 00:25
knock-around,throw-back?
labster I got 500 blog hits yesterday? Oh, I see, someone posted it on /r/programming
diakopter knock-along,throw-behind?
labster anyone want to answer this question: www.reddit.com/r/programming/commen...to_perl_6/ TBH finding easy-level docs is something I struggle with too. 00:26
diakopter "pull requests welcome?" 00:27
diakopter quacks
cognominal I think the nqp::clone is useless here. What do you think? github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/s....nqp#L1334 00:30
[Coke] I for one would love it if nqp had a tcl like uplevel. For probably the only one, though.
cognominal it seems to have been pasted from another zone that did a pop so the clone there was justified. 00:31
btw, I duck 00:40
being taller than TimToady
TimToady I just grouse
(from a sign in a low doorway in an English castle: Duck, or grouse.) 00:42
cognominal each time I consult a dictionnary to understand TimToady, I see how he exploits language polysemy
* how much 00:43
how, I don't know
TimToady well, I didn't make that one up. 00:44
but yes, if there's any way to misunderstand something intentionally, I'll usually do so :) 00:46
cognominal That made work difficult for people who had to translate programming Perl
linguistic puns rarely survive translation. 00:47
translate "traduttore traduttore" in French or English 00:48
oops
I meant Traduttore, traditore
TimToady that will traduce a traditional translator
cognominal :) 00:49
[Coke] leaves his traduce in the upright and locked position. 00:54
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cognominal removing the nqp::clone did not break anything so I submit a pull request : github.com/perl6/nqp/pull/97 01:17
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[Coke] Do we have any docs on kcachegrind specificaly on rakudo --profile output? 01:35
01:38 gdey left
[Coke] ah. step 1: turn off cycle detection. 01:38
anyone know what '3 is ? 01:41
(it's one of the highest cost functions - 0x<something>:'3 01:42
flussence those are usually anonymous function things...
colomon n: my @var = <a b ab c>; my $aref = \@var; say 'a0' ~~ m/$aref[0]/ 01:43
camelia niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Apparent subscript will be treated as regex at /tmp/_TqEMWffQt line 1:␤------> >; my $aref = \@var; say 'a0' ~~ m/$aref⏏[0]/␤␤False␤»
flussence (if you've got the address there, gdb *might* produce useful info on it...) 01:44
[Coke] flussence: I'm not in gdb, though? 01:47
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colomon r: my @var = <a b ab c>; my $aref = \@var; say 'a0' ~~ m/$aref[0]/ 01:48
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Apparent subscript will be treated as regex␤ at /tmp/UVYJQD_Dm5:1␤ ------> >; my $aref = \@var; say 'a0' ~~ m/$aref⏏[0]/␤False␤»
flussence oh, um, not much else I can think of that'd be useful then
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colomon nr: my @var = <a b ab c>; my $aref = \@var; say 'a b ab c0' ~~ m/$aref[0]/ 01:50
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Apparent subscript will be treated as regex␤ at /tmp/e9H1oMM9Eu:1␤ ------> aref = \@var; say 'a b ab c0' ~~ m/$aref⏏[0]/␤｢a b ab c0｣␤␤»
..niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Apparent subscript will be treated as regex at /tmp/CaRuBey9D9 line 1:␤------> aref = \@var; say 'a b ab c0' ~~ m/$aref⏏[0]/␤␤False␤»
[Coke] so, infix:<<> is listed as the highest # for Self in this profile. No clue which of those it is. caller list is a bunch of "1", "reify'1", "gimme'1", with no source. *sadface* 01:58
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[Coke] (adding CORE.setting via the kcachegrind menu has no effect) 02:02
TimToady nr: my @var = <a b ab c>; my $aref = \@var; say $aref.Str 02:03
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«a b ab c␤»
..niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«Capture()<instance>␤»
TimToady nr: my @var = <a b ab c>; my $aref = @var; say $aref.Str
camelia rakudo 37c762, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«a b ab c␤»
TimToady colomon: that's the difference
the \ doesn't make a ref like in P5, and they disagree on how to stringify a Capture 02:04
[Coke] if I drill down a bit, I can see time in my code spends a lot of time in eager, even though I'm not calling eager directly. (part of for loops) 02:05
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colomon TimToady++ 02:05
TimToady: do you have thoughts on what Set.ACCEPTS should do? 02:11
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flussence colomon: does that do anything currently? my naive guess if I read code using it, having never used any Set stuff, would be «$lhs subset-of $set» 02:27
(which seems like a reasonably useful default to me, but again I've never used it...) 02:28
colomon flussence: doesn't do anything in Niecza, dunno about Rakudo 02:29
grondilu_ Will we ever simulate a biological organism in Perl6? phys.org/news/2013-05-digital-life-...ource.html
02:29 grondilu_ is now known as grondilu
colomon subset was my instinctive notion as well. 02:29
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colomon but it doesn't seem very consistent with Hash's behavior. 02:30
(Which I didn't know when I first thought subset.)
quietfanatic I would assume Set.ACCEPTS would test for element-hood rather than subset-hood
or I guess it could do both depending on the argument 02:31
sorear if I were reading code like given $set { ... when set(2,5) { ... } ... } - I think the least surprising behavior would be exact, order-and-duplicate insensitive comparison (of the key set for hashes) 02:33
colomon Set's subset behavior is to promote Scalars to a set containing the scalar.
sorear Set.ACCEPTS shouldn't test element-hood because we already have any-junctions for that.
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flussence good point 02:33
colomon and if you want to do Set subset, there already are a slew of subset operators. 02:34
sorear so I'm thinking something like Set($lhs) === self 02:35
colomon === doesn't actually do that, does it? 02:37
infix:<eqv> is supposed to, but that's NYI in Niecza. 02:38
but yeah, quibbles aside that seems the natural extension of the Hash behavior 02:39
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sorear colomon: for immutable types like Set, === and eqv are supposed to be the same 02:43
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colomon sorear: ah 02:43
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xenoterracide privatepaste.com/6efc3e03bc why would I have done this this way? 03:00
oops 03:01
wrong channel
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[Coke] #perl6++ 03:32
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sorear any reason in particular? 03:54
[Coke] when my perl6 is broke, y'all help me fix it with a minimum of snark and vinegar. 04:01
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Util Coke: New band name: Minimum Vinegar 04:53
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moritz pmichaud: indeed I have 05:07
labster: you now have a commit bit. Welcome to the team!
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TimToady prn: my @pascal := [1], -> @p { [0, @p Z+ @p, 0] } ... *; .say for @pascal[2,4...*]; 06:40
diakopter rpn 06:41
camelia rakudo 37c762, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected ";"␤ at /tmp/xgTCTmr8JB line 1, column 52␤»
diakopter oh heh.
TimToady prn: my @pascal := [1], -> @p { [0, @p Z+ @p, 0] } ... *; .say for @pascal; 06:42
camelia niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«(timeout)1␤1 1␤1 2 1␤1 3 3 1␤1 4 6 4 1␤1 5 10 10 5 1␤1 6 15 20 15 6 1␤1 7 21 35 35 21 7 1␤1 8 28 56 70 56 28 8 1␤1 9 36 84 126 126 84 36 9 1␤1 10 45 120 210 252 210 120 45 10 1␤1 11 55 165 330 462 462 330 165 55 11 1␤1 12 66 220 495 792 924 792 495 220 66 … 06:43
..rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«(timeout)1␤1 1␤1 2 1␤1 3 3 1␤1 4 6 4 1␤1 5 10 10 5 1␤1 6 15 20 15 6 1␤1 7 21 35 35 21 7 1␤1 8 28 56 70 56 28 8 1␤1 9 36 84 126 126 84 36 9 1␤1 10 45 120 210 252 210 120 45 10 1␤1 11 55 165 330 462 462 330 165 55 11 1␤1 12 66 220 495 792 924 792 495 220 66 12 1␤1 13…
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected ";"␤ at /tmp/2h84mJCKSA line 1, column 52␤»
06:43 thou left
TimToady expected @pascal[2,4...*] to hand the lazy subscript when embedded in a lazy list 06:44
GlitchMr rpn: 2 2 + say 06:47
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/0FTwjtHp1t:1␤------> 2 ⏏2 + say␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix␤ statement end␤ statement modifier␤ statement m…
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "2"␤ expecting operator␤ at /tmp/VL3Ilh1CiZ line 1, column 3␤»
..niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/p2PQM3Lb3n line 1:␤------> 2 ⏏2 + say␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
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TimToady makes it harder to write rosettacode.org/wiki/Catalan_number...gle#Perl_6 without lazy subscripting 06:52
labster moritz: thanks! 06:56
.oO ( You are now a member of Team Rakudo. Here's your commit bit and jersey )
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TimToady on RC we're now in 7th place, 4 ahead of Ruby, and 6 behind D 06:58
moritz TimToady++
TimToady well, the competition is fun, but flushing out bugs and missing features is the real point... 06:59
FROGGS morning 07:00
sorear o/
TimToady it's AM here too, barely :)
sorear inded. 07:01
labster Oh, it is morning now. Good morning!
lizmat morning #perl6 07:02
yoleaux 7 May 2013 14:16Z <pmichaud> lizmat: (Hash2.new multimethod fail) the problem appears to be that Rakudo's Hash.new method isn't declared 'multi'.
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sorear o/ 07:07
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FROGGS if I can do this: 07:27
nr: package Foo { { our @x }; say @Foo::x.WHAT }
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
..niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
FROGGS shoudn't be x reported here?
nr: package Foo { { our @x }; say Foo:: }
camelia niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«Stash.new(...)␤»
..rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«().hash␤»
FROGGS nr: package Foo { { our @x }; say Foo.WHO } # test
camelia niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«Stash.new(...)␤»
..rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«().hash␤»
moritz nr: package Foo { { our @x }; say Foo::.keys } 07:29
camelia niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«0␤»
..rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␤»
moritz nr: package Foo { { our @x }; say Foo.WHO.keys }
camelia niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«0␤»
..rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␤»
07:30 zamolxes_ is now known as zamolxes
FROGGS I mean, that rakudo doesnt do it is clear to me... but I just want to confirm that I should see it theoretically 07:30
moritz yes, it should
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FROGGS k, thanks 07:31
07:40 daxim joined 07:44 census joined
daxim xkcd.com/1209/ # title says encoding, but that's a font construction or rendering problem. rmunroe, I am disappoint. 07:46
I am informed that a skywriter is an airplane writing with smoke, not pulling a banner as I imagined, and thus there is no font as such. still not an encoding problem 07:53
07:59 domidumont left
lizmat on the rakudo/parrot performance bit: I noticed that at least on OS X, "1 while 1" on Perl 5 uses only 1 core 100% 08:01
whereas rakudo/parrot switches between 2 cores continuously
(effectively doing about 50% on 2 cores on average) 08:02
moritz wouldn't it finish much earlier if it used more cores? :-)
lizmat while discussing this at the Amsterdam.pm meeting
it was suggested that this might be an indication of some bad CPU pipelining
and that that would also badly affect performance 08:03
so I was wondering whether we see this also on rakudo/jvm
if we don't, we can forget about it, as it is apparently a parrot issue 08:04
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lizmat if we do, then maybe we should have this somehow in the back of our minds 08:04
timotimo at least on linux and windows you can restrict a process to a subset of your cores. you could just try running the parrot/perl6 process once without restriction and once with and run a simple benchmark and see if there's any benefit 08:05
i would think: almost no benefit at all
sorear maybe it makes lots of blocking syscalls 08:06
moritz like malloc?
sorear page faults maybe. does 1 while 1 still leak memory?
lizmat doesn't seem to leak memory...
lizmat checks
08:06 kresike joined
kresike hello all you happy perl6 people 08:06
moritz sorear: doesn't seem to leak, no 08:07
sorear sleep&
08:08 Chillance joined
lizmat running for a few minutes now, steady at 182.8 MB real memory 08:09
morning kresike!
08:11 berekuk joined
kresike lizmat, o/ 08:11
timotimo .o(am i in the wrong to think that that's actually a lot?)
08:17 estrabd_ left 08:25 kurahaupo left, sqirrel left 08:35 rhr left 08:37 rhr joined
lizmat timotimo: perl5 runs at 1.2MB real memory for the same code 08:41
nwc10 timotimo: seems a lot. Does it include all of Rakudo in memory too?
lizmat those long startup times must come from somewhere :-) 08:42
nwc10 long startup times - you ain't seen nothin' yet :-/ 08:45
08:46 berekuk left
jnthn morning, #perl6 08:48
nwc10 jnthn: morning 08:49
I was going to report a bug/regression/wibble in nqp-jvm, but sort of there isn't
a) it hasn't regressed on t/nqp/67-container.t because that is a new test 08:50
b) it does correctly now report when it can't open a file (which it didn't seem to on the older revision I checked)
c) t/nqp/24-module.t didn't even run before.
However, it's output is Less Than Awesome: 08:51
[nicholas@dromedary-001 nqp]$ ./nqp t/nqp/24-module.t
1..3
ok 1
ok 3
Gah. its output. No '. Brainfart.
jnthn Yeah. I fixed what I thought was the problem there. Which fixed my *actual* blocker over in the Rakudo work, but still got that test wrong. I ain't sure why.
You should find t/qregex and t/p5regex fail much less now also. 08:52
timotimo i wonder if jakudo will run at less than 180 MB of real memory usage for something as simple as "1 while 1" 08:53
my intuition says it should be doable, but no word on wether it will happen "on its own"
nwc10 timotimo: it might well make Parrot's memory drop too. (Yes, this is optimism, but) 08:54
given the different (and better?) toolchain for debugging, it may well let people find ways to optimise memory 08:55
IIRC pmichaud had said that there are things that he thought that the compiler hangs on to long after it it no longer access them
jnthn Also, a bunch of speed/memory trade-offs have gone the "speed" way. 08:56
lizmat juerd at the Amsterdam.pm (jokingly) suggested that "1 while 1" should be reduced by Perl 6 to "sleep *"
which would put Perl 6 at the top of the most efficient implementation of "1 while 1" :-) 08:57
moritz or more generally, side-effect-free infinite loops in sink context :-) 08:58
nwc10 that's kind of like tweaking the C compiler to recongnise SPEC benchmarks and output "different" code
or what I'm told that car manufacturers do to get the best official mileage figures, to the extent of programming the car to recognise the test cycle 08:59
tadzik seen LylePerl
yoleaux: seen LylePerl?
gah
labster .seen LylePerl
yoleaux I haven't seen LylePerl around.
tadzik oh, thanks labster
nwc10 .seen yoleaux 09:00
yoleaux I'm right here.
lizmat r: sleep * 09:01
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: Mu *%_)␤ in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:865␤ in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE.setting:3008␤ in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE.setting:3006␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/CORE.setting:2…
lizmat r: sleep Inf
tadzik . o O ( timeout ) 09:02
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
labster (this might take a while)
nwc10 nqp-jvm running 1 while 1 09:03
23226 nicholas 20 0 7765m 97m 9.9m S 100.1 0.4 0:12.10 java
09:03 daxim left, daxim_ joined 09:04 d4l3k_ joined
nwc10 nqp on parrot running 1 while 1 09:04
23593 nicholas 20 0 178m 40m 5108 R 99.8 0.2 0:05.69 nqp
jnthn
.oO( now somebody tell me what the numbers mean... :) )
labster Well, I started writing the follow up blog post, and it turned into two posts. Incidentally, that File::Spec post got 500 hits off of reddit, which well, surprised me.
nwc10 bigger figure is "VIRT", smaller is "RES"
-smallest is "SHR" 09:05
arnsholt What're the corresponding JVM numbers?
09:05 berekuk joined
nwc10 you mean NQP-JVM (which I pasted first), or write-the-code-as-Java? 09:05
labster blog.brentlaabs.com/2013/05/how-to-...erl-6.html < practical details on how to set up your own branch of rakudo and test it
arnsholt Oh derp. Missed it above the join notices. Sorry
labster blog.brentlaabs.com/2013/05/impleme...akudo.html < me demonstrating how bad I am at programming, and how much I like the sound of myself typing. 09:06
nwc10 no problem. wasn't sure if you had, or you were asking the other question
lizmat labster++ for blog post!
moritz labster++ 09:08
we should add that blog to planetsix
or whatever is going to replace planetsix
labster it's on the planeteria one already. But the rendering of <code> in a paragraph is awful. 09:09
09:09 cognominal__ joined 09:10 betterwo1ld joined, smash_ joined 09:11 sciurius1 joined, s0rear joined 09:12 ingyfoo joined
labster also labster-- for writing too much in the second post. I just can't bring myself to do enough editing in a blog post. 09:12
09:12 tadzik1 joined, _jaldhar joined, woolfy1 joined 09:13 BooK_ joined, huf__ joined 09:14 Util_ joined, kshannon_ joined 09:15 d4l3k_ is now known as dalek, GlitchMr joined
GlitchMr r: q.what? 09:16
lizmat r: 1 09:18
FROGGS camelia is gone
lizmat wonders whether she killed Camelia with "sleep Inf"
jnthn No, netsplit.
lizmat ah *phew* 09:19
09:19 cooper- joined 09:20 mtk joined 09:21 cognominal left, woolfy left, cooper_ left, hugme joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v hugme
masak antenoon, #perl6 09:26
moritz an, ma<tab>
masak an, ma<tab>
lizmat masak!
jnthn o/ masak 09:27
09:27 sizz_ joined, domidumont joined 09:28 daxim_ is now known as daxim 09:33 camelia joined 09:34 ChanServ sets mode: +v camelia
lizmat rL q.what? 09:36
09:36 bonsaikitten left
lizmat r: q.what? 09:36
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀S␀␀␀O␀␀␀R␀␀␀R␀␀␀Y␀␀␀!␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀␤␀␀␀C␀␀␀o␀␀␀u␀␀␀l␀␀␀d␀␀␀n␀␀␀'␀␀␀t␀␀␀ ␀␀␀f􏿽xE2
09:37 bonsaikitten joined
jnthn ... 09:38
lizmat just repeating what GlitchMr was doing before Camelia went AWOL
jnthn
.oO( Encoded strings considered not so great after all... )
GlitchMr r: 'qwerty 09:39
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse expression in single quotes; couldn't find final "'"␤at /tmp/8q1qI8XzUU:1␤------> 'qwerty⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤ …
GlitchMr r: q<<qwerty> >
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Couldn't find terminator >>␤at /tmp/FxHrhWY8Gv:1␤------> q<<qwerty> >⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤»
GlitchMr r: q<<qwerty
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Couldn't find terminator >>␤at /tmp/00CQdNTq8B:1␤------> q<<qwerty⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤»
GlitchMr huh?
r: q!qwerty
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀S␀␀␀O␀␀␀R␀␀␀R␀␀␀Y␀␀␀!␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀␤␀␀␀C␀␀␀o␀␀␀u␀␀␀l␀␀␀d␀␀␀n␀␀␀'␀␀␀t␀␀␀ ␀␀␀f􏿽xE2
masak GlitchMr: why do you say "huh?"? what's surprising? 09:40
looks perfectly legit to me.
jnthn masak: That it only fucks up some of the errors when they seem like cases of the same thing.
GlitchMr r: q<qwert 09:41
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Couldn't find terminator >␤at /tmp/PL_lROjfkC:1␤------> q<qwert⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤»
GlitchMr r: qw!abc
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀S␀␀␀O␀␀␀R␀␀␀R␀␀␀Y␀␀␀!␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀␤␀␀␀C␀␀␀o␀␀␀u␀␀␀l␀␀␀d␀␀␀n␀␀␀'␀␀␀t␀␀␀ ␀␀␀f􏿽xE2
GlitchMr r: qw'abc
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀S␀␀␀O␀␀␀R␀␀␀R␀␀␀Y␀␀␀!␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀␤␀␀␀C␀␀␀o␀␀␀u␀␀␀l␀␀␀d␀␀␀n␀␀␀'␀␀␀t␀␀␀ ␀␀␀f􏿽xE2
masak hm -- better collect the cases where it fails, and try to find what sets them apart...
GlitchMr ok, so it's quotelike keyword with delimiter that isn't a paren.
jnthn afaict, some string operations in Parrot, when they get strings that are of different encodings, do the Wrong Thing and/or mislabel the encoding of the produced string. 09:42
lizmat r: sub so-q { True }; say so-q 09:43
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«False␤»
lizmat just another in the category "why do we allow - as a identifier character: 09:44
"
GlitchMr Because "-" looks nicely. 09:46
09:46 berekuk left
lizmat so what was the reasoning behind allowing "-" as an identifier? Making it easier for beginners? Or people coming over from XSLT ? 09:47
GlitchMr I like "-".
lizmat *identifier character
lizmat too
GlitchMr The - character looks more nicely than _.
$some-variable is better than $some_variable. 09:48
lizmat but that doesn't mean it brings a world of hurt because "-" is also an operator
GlitchMr This is parsing problem.
Perl 6 is for humans, not parsers.
jnthn lizmat: Perl 6 gives you a *lot* of incentives to put whitespace around your infixes anyway, not just this one. 09:49
GlitchMr Besides, "-" isn't that hard to parse.
There are things that are worse than that.
lizmat r: my $a=5; say $a-1
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«4␤»
lizmat here no spaces are needed 09:50
GlitchMr I would say it's a bug.
masak GlitchMr: of course not.
jnthn lizmat: I said incentive, not demand.
lizmat jnthn: indeed
masak GlitchMr: try to not sound so cock-sure about things you don't know ;) 09:51
GlitchMr But perhaps I mistake \w.
lizmat r: my $a=5; my $a-i=6; say $a-i
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«6␤»
masak indeed.
the parsing rules here are fairly unambiguous.
lizmat r: my $a=5; my $a-i=6; say $a-1
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«4␤»
masak r: my $a--b = 5
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/9ApiLogr1Y:1␤------> my $a--b =⏏ 5␤»
jnthn It's the same rule that means you can't write
r: my $1a; 09:52
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot declare a numeric variable␤at /tmp/y68p3sZsiB:1␤------> my $1⏏a;␤»
GlitchMr r: my \b = 42; my $a = 50; my $a-b = 1; say $a-b;
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«1␤»
nwc10 can't work out how to compile `1 while 1` from NQP to a Java bytecode file that runs as the main program
GlitchMr r: my \b = 42; my $a = 50; my $a-b = 1; say $a-b();
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«No such method 'postcircumfix:<( )>' for invocant of type 'Int'␤ in block at /tmp/Qj2URe5PWM:1␤␤»
GlitchMr r: my \b = 42; my $a = 50; my $a-b = 1; say $a-(b);
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«8␤»
09:52 census left
jnthn nwc10: --target=classfile --javaclass=Foo --output=Foo.class 09:52
GlitchMr r: my $A-004 = 'Hello, world!' 09:53
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Leading 0 does not indicate octal in Perl 6; please use 0o04 if you mean that␤ at /tmp/hsFYwBSQGN:1␤ ------> my $A-004⏏ = 'Hello, world!'␤ Leading 0 does not indicate octal in Perl 6; please use 0o04 if you me…
nwc10 Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/perl6/nqp/runtime/CompilationUnit
...
... 13 more
lizmat GlitchMr: must be alpha around "-"
jnthn nwc10: Did you just try to run it with java Foo ? 09:54
nwc10 yep
how did you guess? Was about to say that
jnthn nwc10: You need the various classpath flags as well, like the ones nqp.sh passes.
FROGGS r: my $a=5; my $a-1=6; say $a-1
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Redeclaration of symbol $a␤ at /tmp/HSff8T7qyr:1␤ ------> my $a=5; my $a⏏-1=6; say $a-1␤Cannot modify an immutable value␤ in block at /tmp/HSff8T7qyr:1␤␤»
FROGGS k
lizmat r: my $_-_=6; say $_-_
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«6␤»
jnthn nwc10: I just recognize the error ;)
GlitchMr r: __halt_compiler(); 09:55
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared name:␤ __halt_compiler used at line 1␤␤»
nwc10 aha.
GlitchMr r: <?php __halt_compiler();
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse expression in quote words; couldn't find final '>'␤at /tmp/RzN9_UZUnB:1␤------> <?php __halt_compiler();⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or me…
nwc10 Righto, so compiled `1 while 1` without needing to load the compiler:
PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
10356 nicholas 20 0 7765m 69m 9.9m S 100.1 0.3 0:14.19 java
FROGGS GlitchMr: you are doing strange things... O.o
nwc10 contrast with running it as -e, so NQP compiler loaded:
10572 nicholas 20 0 7765m 100m 9.9m S 100.1 0.4 0:09.21 java
GlitchMr r: ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 09:56
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix > instead␤at /tmp/H5nGo5t_8i:1␤------> ++++++++++[>⏏+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++␤»
GlitchMr std: ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
camelia std b33d8e0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix > instead at /tmp/3YmOyLgBeW line 1:␤------> ++++++++++[⏏>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.++␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 43m␤»
lizmat nwc10: so 31MB for NQP ?
nwc10 it looks like that
GlitchMr r: ,+[-.,+] 09:57
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix , instead␤at /tmp/r82XyaEANJ:1␤------> ,⏏+[-.,+]␤»
GlitchMr r: (aBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,JH)('&%$#"!~}|{zy\J6utsrqponmlkjihgJ%dcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGF('C%$$^K~<;4987654321a/.-,\*) 09:58
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/mTmydytEMV:1␤------> (aBA⏏@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,JH)('&%$#"!~}|{zy\J␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix␤ sta…
GlitchMr ok 09:59
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FROGGS lizmat: I cant confirm that `1 while 1 ` uses more than one core 10:04
not as a perl6 on-liner, not as a nqp one-liner, not in the repl 10:05
one*
yeah, and nqp takes 35MiB ram when rakudo takes 215MiB 10:07
10:07 anuby left
jnthn A Java program that just contains while (true) { } weighs in at 10MB - and that's when you already compiled it, so there's no compiler in memory. 10:11
nwc10 is that after the JIT has figured out that there's a hot loop, and used more RAM to optimise it? :-) 10:12
FROGGS jnthn: do you wanna know what perl5 takes?
348kiB
feels like there are centuries between 5 and 6 when there are just decades 10:13
jnthn FROGGS: Now load Moose, RegExp::Grammars, File::Spec, etc etc. ;)
FROGGS no, not installed :P
(moose) 10:14
nwc10 perl 1 takes 420K
FROGGS nwc10: you have a running perl1 ? 10:15
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nwc10 I built one 10:15
FROGGS are you going to backport moose?
(joke)
nwc10 would be tricky with OO 10:16
perl 4 on the same machine (and also i386) is 516K 10:17
I don't think that I have an i386 perl 5 handy
FROGGS okay, perl -MMoose -MRegexp::Grammars -MFile::Spec -e '1 while 1' takes already 13MiB 10:18
ohh what the, my remmina (a remote desktop client) needs 221MiB just for the try icon O.o 10:19
nwc10 I remember when emacs was big.
10:24 vardan left 10:25 vardan joined
vardan Hi 10:25
FROGGS hi vardan 10:26
10:28 fhelmberger left
vardan Could you please help me to build rakudo under Red Hat linux 10:29
FROGGS hmm, should be fairly easy 10:30
what do you wanna do? install/build rakudo star (the one with modules) or the compiler only? 10:31
vardan I need build
FROGGS build what?
moritz vardan: there are build instructions both on the rakudo website and in the rakudo source tree 10:32
vardan: did you follow them?
vardan build perl 6
masak vardan: well, if you have git, you can simply go to github.com/rakudo/rakudo and then follow the instructions in INSTALL.txt 10:33
vardan No, but I'll now
tanks for support
FROGGS you are welcome
vardan: what is your native language ooc? 10:34
masak we're here to help, so keep the questions coming ;)
10:37 vardan left
masak or leave without warning, that's OK too. 10:41
FROGGS -.- 10:42
lunch&
10:43 donaldh joined
GlitchMr r: say ~/regexp/ 10:55
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␤»
GlitchMr rn: my $regexp = /abc/; 'dabce' ~~ / d $regexp e / # I know, you should use <$regexp> 10:56
camelia rakudo 37c762, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: ( no output )
GlitchMr rn: my $regexp = /abc/; say 'dabce' ~~ / d $regexp e / ?? True !! False # I know, you should use <$regexp>
camelia rakudo 37c762, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«True␤»
GlitchMr rn: my $regexp = /abc/; say 'dabce' ~~ / d <$regexp> e / ?? True !! False # I know, you should use <$regexp>
masak GlitchMr: so... why don't you use <$regexp>...?
camelia rakudo 37c762, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«True␤»
GlitchMr I was wondering what would happen if I would forget to. 10:57
I have noticed that in specs that it should be stringified instead (why).
masak GlitchMr: because of a known insecurity in Perl 5. 11:02
GlitchMr: see "two-level interpolation is problematic" in www.perl6.org/archive/doc/design/apo/A05.html 11:04
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Util_ TimToady++ # for RC 7th place 12:21
cognominal__ Util_? 12:27
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Util_ cognominal__: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-05-08#i_7033535 12:28
cognominal__: RC == RosettaCode.org 12:29
cognominal__ ok, thx
nice to have a big presence in Rosetta Code and Rosalind. 12:30
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cognominal__ I notice that NFA code is very modular. We probably could adapt it to get a version that match 2 bits characters to match codons. The slowing down for and-ing to get chars would be offsetted by a better use of cache. That would be a big win to show off in rosalind 12:34
I forgot what is the Perl 6 operator for bit and-ing 12:35
12:35 krunen left
jnthn +& 12:36
masak mnemonic: "math and" :)
cognominal__ masak++ jnthn++ 12:37
Util_ cognominal__: S03 says +& is "numeric bitwise and", ~& is "buffer bitwise and".
lizmat but anything with buffer is NYI in rakudo, right? 12:38
masak r: say "foo".encode("utf-8").^name
jnthn Rakudo has some basic Buf support.
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«Buf␤»
jnthn It's not perfect, but it certainly exists.
lizmat ah, ok 12:40
small question: in rakudo's README it says "perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-nqp"
in labster++ blog post, he says: "perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot" 12:41
the latter also seems to fetch nqp as expected?
maybe the README is a bit overcomplete ?
or is there a good reason to always say "--gen-nqp" as well ?
if so, maybe labster would need to correct his blog post? 12:42
blogpost: blog.brentlaabs.com/2013/05/how-to-...erl-6.html
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cognominal__ Will Perl 6 provide support to add unicode subscripts or superscripts at the end of an identifier? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_subsc...perscripts 12:42
lizmat .u upper 12:43
yoleaux U+0374 GREEK NUMERAL SIGN [Lm] (􏿽xCD􏿽xB4)
U+05C4 HEBREW MARK UPPER DOT [Mn] (◌ׄ)
U+2196 NORTH WEST ARROW [So] (↖)
12:43 kivutar joined
cognominal__ there is an unicode uperscripts and subscripts block 12:44
masak lizmat: I dunno, I always --gen-parrot and skip the other flag.
lizmat: I *suspect* that the one implies the other.
cognominal__ Next, people will ask for matrices :)
masak but I'm not good at reading Makefile.
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lizmat me neither, but if --gen-parrot implies --gen-nqp, then it wouldn't be necessary in the README 12:45
masak correct. 12:47
jnthn --gen-parrot implies --gen-nqp iirc 12:48
lizmat ok, let me then make that my first pull request :-) 12:49
cognominal__ lizmat++ 12:50
jnthn We'll need to revisit this lot at some point soon anyways.
12:50 cognominal__ is now known as cognominal
lizmat yup, with --gen-jvm I guess ? 12:50
jnthn Initially it'll be perl ConfigureJVM.pl, but I suspect at YAPC::NA we can discuss what we actually want. 12:51
Even if very basic JVM support of some kind is in the next compiler release, we'll be a bit off a Star that can do JVM, which is when we really want to have something nicer in place. 12:52
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lizmat r: class Dog:auth<cpan:JRANDOM>:ver<1.2.1> { }; say Dog.HOW.WHAT 12:55
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«(Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW)␤»
tadzik r: say Q.WHO 12:56
camelia rakudo 37c762: OUTPUT«␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀S␀␀␀O␀␀␀R␀␀␀R␀␀␀Y␀␀␀!␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀3␀␀␀1␀␀␀m␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀=␀␀␀␀␀␀[␀␀␀0␀␀␀m␀␀␀␤␀␀␀C␀␀␀o␀␀␀u␀␀␀l␀␀␀d␀␀␀n␀␀␀'␀␀␀t␀␀␀ ␀␀␀f􏿽xE2
tadzik wat
lizmat I assume if we want tosupport the auth, ver and name data, I would need to hack that into Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW, right?
12:56 smash_ is now known as smash
tadzik lizmat: you may want to see how Perl6::Metamodel::Documentation works 12:56
this may be a similar thing
btw, PLPW schedule is online :) 12:57
criticism welcome
lizmat tadzik: src/Perl6/Metamodel/Documenting.nqp ? 12:58
tadzik lizmat: sounds about right
jnthn tadzik: I don't see it?
tadzik jnthn: not on act.yapc.eu/plpw2013/schedule ? 12:59
jnthn tadzik: yeahbut I don't see a link to it
lizmat there is no link to it
:-)
tadzik curious
jnthn oh, that page says "The schedule is not ready to be seen."
lizmat "The schedule is not ready to be seen."
tadzik LIES
hrm
lizmat jnthn beats me every time
tadzik show_schedule = 0
jnthn tadzik: I'd like to criticise the schedule for not being avaiable :P
tadzik show_schedule = 0
well, that could explain it... 13:00
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tadzik and of course my university wifi blocks svn 13:02
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nwc10 tadzik: even DAV over https? 13:02
tadzik surely I'm not supposed to do anything but watching youtube here
nwc10: that I didn't try
nwc10 ah OK
it's just that I remember a (reasonable) grumble from a colleague at a job years ago about how the world seems to be reinventing wheels. At that point, re-implementing TCP-based protocols atop HTTP 13:03
mostly driven by an arms-race to the one up on firewalls 13:04
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jnthn Yes, to say it's an application protocol, an awful lot chose to use HTTP as a transport... 13:06
.oO( SOAP = Screwing Other Application Protocol )
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tadzik lizmat, jnthn: the schedule should be online now 13:12
lizmat indeed, it is
jnthn yay, I don't have to speak early in th emorning \o/
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lizmat pull request posted (my 1st!) :-) 13:19
dalek kudo/nom: 782dec0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | README:
Remove --gen-nqp from config instructions

It appears that --gen-nqp is implied in --gen-parrot.		 13:21
kudo/nom: fe70494 | (Tobias Leich)++ | README:
Merge pull request #136 from lizmat/nom

Remove --gen-nqp from config instructions
lizmat FROGGS++ 13:22
back to the drawing board for some more serious stuff
FROGGS well, I just clicked that shiny button :o)
have fun
lizmat I will, that's why I'm doing this ;-) 13:23
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lizmat is there a quick way to get changes to e.g. src/core/Hash.pm to be seen by rakudo? 13:49
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jnthn lizmat: Typically you can try things out with augment or similar tricks in a seprate file. 13:50
lizmat I tried that yesterday: in that particular case the method I tried to supply another multi for, was not specified as multi 13:51
diakopter lizmat: is the spreadsheet misbehaving for you too?
lizmat diakopter: checking
jnthn lizmat: Well, in that case you're kinda out of luck and just need to edit the real thing :) 13:52
diakopter I had to shift-reload a few times to makeit appear
lizmat seems ok
jnthn: indeed…. but do I have to do a "make" after that?
seems so… :-(
jnthn Yes. 13:53
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PerlJam lizmat: What were you adding to Hash? Could you use a derived class as a proxy for testing purposes? 13:55
lizmat I'm trying to get Hash.new to complain about extraneous named parameters, like Niecza 13:56
n: my Hash $h .= new( a => 1 ); $h
camelia niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to Hash.new, unused named a␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (Hash.new @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/Vjgpj3D_bJ line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4329 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval…
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[Coke] notes that you don't need the 1 in #?pugs 1 skip 'reason' (but can see pedagogically why you'd specify it) 14:02
(from brent laabs article) 14:03
lizmat: if you need a multi for testing that isn't already multi, then I'd make it multi, do the slow rebuild, and then still do your iterative testing with augment. 14:04
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lizmat [Coke]: ack, will keep that in mind in the future 14:04
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lizmat meanwhile, my first test worked ;=-) 14:05
$ mp6 -e 'my Hash $h .= new( a => 1 )'
Named parameters found
no on to refinement
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lizmat *now 14:06
diakopter lizmat: it's not always clear whether "ack" means "I acknowledge", "augh!," or some combination/superposition/ambiguity :)
lizmat when I say "ack" I mean I acknowledge
would 'k' be better ?
hoelzro ack means the grep alternative! ;)
masak I think 'ACK' (all-caps) is fairly unambiguous. 14:07
diakopter well yes, even in "augh" there's very much an "I acknowledge"
so my question was poor
alester Whenever someone says "ack" it clicks my IRC client. 14:08
[Coke] clearly augh! should be spelled ARGLEBARGLE.
diakopter s/question/idle musing/ :/
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lizmat alester: why would "ack" click your IRC client? 14:08
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alester Because I have my IRC client set to look for mentions of "ack" and "alester" and "petdance" and a few other things. 14:09
lizmat is opposing the urge to say "ack" a lot of times :-)
alester Knock yourself out, lizmat 14:10
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lizmat k 14:10
diakopter smack back tack slack pack rack lack thwack wrack stack plack
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lizmat and not a single " ack " in that 14:11
[Coke] Ash perl durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul; Ash perl thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
dammit. missed one.
masak why's it suddenly so cold in here? 14:12
lizmat not sure, masack
masak I see whack you did there.
diakopter e​ack 14:13
PerlJam It's funny how memes get started sometimes.
(other times, it's not so funny ;)
diakopter looks in the infrared clog to see whether the zero-width space made it in there 14:14
it did! 14:15
alester: sm​ack b​ack t​ack sl​ack p​ack r​ack l​ack thw​ack wr​ack st​ack pl​ack 14:16
or does it just click max once per line
masak that probably just turned into one... right.
alester diakopter: It only clicked that once because of "alester" 14:17
diakopter d'oh
lizmat suspect alester is using ack to match ack
suspects
diakopter is anyone looking for a somewhat mundane but easy and incredibly helpful task for Perl 6 [sortof programming, sortof not] 14:26
don't say anything if you are, and are willing to devote 100% of your life to it 14:27
awesome!
FROGGS diakopter: there is a perl6-most-wanted
maybe there is something for you? 14:28
diakopter hrm
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diakopter FROGGS_: I was asking for help, not volunteering. I'm already about 99**99**99**99**99 percent overcommitted 14:35
masak I'd like to remind everyone that exponentiation is right-associative. 14:37
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masak not that it matters in this case :P 14:37
diakopter it matters :P 14:38
lizmat jnthn: when looking at Hash.pm, I see these 2 multi methods:
multi method delete( @keys) { @keys.map({ self.delete($^key) }) }
multi method delete(*@keys) { @keys.map({ self.delete($^key) }) }
wouldn't the *@keys version be enough?
colomon rn: sub foo(*@a) { say @a.perl; }; foo(1,2,3); foo([1,2,3]) 14:39
camelia niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3).list␤([1, 2, 3], ).list␤»
..rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, 3)␤Array.new([1, 2, 3])␤»
diakopter masak:
rn: say 4**4**4 == (4**4)**4
camelia rakudo fe7049, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«False␤»
colomon lizmat: not the same
masak diakopter: oh, of course.
it matters because exponentiation is not commutative. 14:40
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lizmat so, now I got this: $ mp6 -e 'my Hash $h .= new( b => 2, a => 1 ); say $h' 14:41
Excess arguments to Hash.new, unused named a, b
should I add a spectest for it also, before I put in a pull request?
jnthn lizmat: Wait, should we not, like, use them? 14:42
lizmat well, perhaps:
jnthn I mean, if I do Hash.new(a => 1, b => 2) it's fairly clear what I want, I think... :)
lizmat but it was my impression that named parameters in these cases are "reserved" for additional flags
if we allow this, then we can never add a flag to the creation of a hash 14:43
masak correct.
colomon rn: sub foo(*@a) { say @a.perl; }; foo(1,2,3); foo([1,2,3], :excess-named("blue"))
jnthn True. But I don't like that we're special-casing the new method of hash to complain when nothing else does.
camelia niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3).list␤Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to foo, unused named excess-named␤ at /tmp/qVKm3sXQ1d line 0 (foo @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/qVKm3sXQ1d line 1 (mainline @ 6) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4329 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niec…
..rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, 3)␤Unexpected named parameter 'excess-named' passed␤ in sub foo at /tmp/DaKMGCrk7C:1␤ in block at /tmp/DaKMGCrk7C:1␤␤»
jnthn In fact, doing so is openly hostile to the whole interface consistency thing. 14:44
Now nobody can subclass Hash, write a new that takes extra named args, and nextsame to the candidate in Hash.new.
lizmat well, if we would accept the named parameters as key/value pairs 14:46
jnthn Well, yeah, adding an error for when we get named parameters is the worst of both worlds, I suspect.
lizmat then in that case those named args would wind up in the hash with "nextsame"
I was inspired by niecza
:-)
personally, I think a subclassed "new" would need to eat its own parameters, wouldn't it? 14:47
jnthn Yeah but Niecza doesn't give that error because Hash.new is doing anything special.
It does it 'cus it doesn't implement the interface consistency bit of S12, afaik.
lizmat because you can't know whether that parameter hasn't got a meaning in a superclass
FROGGS_ diakopter: ahh, sorry, got you wrong 14:48
lizmat jnthn: so you would rather have "Hash.new(a => 1, b => 2) " to Just Work ?
lizmat is not trying to be hostile, but to avoid pitfalls for migrating Perl 5 programmers 14:49
jnthn lizmat: I think we should either do that or just have the same behavior as any other new method (which is ignore extra names)
Of course, we may decide that isn't a good idea for new methods in general :)
(pitfalls) Hash.new(...) is not the most idiomatic of ways to make a hash in 5 or 6. :) 14:50
lizmat it is in a way, if you're coming from Bag and Set
jnthn Hm, true.
Well, maybve true
I'd probably write set(...) over Set.new(...) 14:51
moritz fwiw, I want all core types to be constructable via .new
because otherwise subclassing is hard
jnthn moritz: I agree fully with that.
moritz: It's just to what degree constructors are special by type.
r: say Int.new(42)
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«Default constructor for 'Int' only takes named arguments␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:731␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:726␤ in block at /tmp/ATpEkSEd3_:1␤␤» 14:52
jnthn Hm, that one ain't :)
moritz if you want to subclass Int, should be able to say my class FooInt is Int { } and have FooInt.new(42) creae a FooInt for you
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lizmat rn: my $h= hash( a => 1, b => 2, :lc); say $h 14:54
camelia niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«{"a" => 1, "b" => 2, "lc" => Bool::True}␤»
..rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«("a" => 1, "b" => 2, "lc" => Bool::True).hash␤»
jnthn lizmat: I'm all for trying to remove traps people may fall in to, fwiw, I just wary about patching one case of a more general problem.
lizmat I understand
if anything, I see this as a nice exercise in my committing patches to rakudo workflow 14:55
but indeed, I see this as a more general problem as well 14:56
would be nice if you could specify with "nextsame" which keys to remove from the named parameters, e.g. 14:57
jnthn lizmat: callsame(...) lets you control exactly what is passed.
PerlJam isn't that nextwith?
lizmat so you wouldn't have to go through creating a clone of the named parameters without the ones you don't want to pass on
jnthn no, wait
nextwith
grr :) 14:58
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jnthn PerlJam++ 14:58
lizmat indeed: nextsame is parameterless at the moment, afaik
PerlJam r: my class MyHash is Hash { }; my MyHash $h .= new; $h.WHAT; 14:59
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$h'; expected 'MyHash' but got 'Hash'␤ in method dispatch:<.=> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1057␤ in block at /tmp/_8QbUTvVZI:1␤␤»
PerlJam r: my class MyArray is Array { }; my MyArray $a .= new; $a.WHAT;
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤current instr.: 'gimme' pc 285305 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:125270) (src/gen/CORE.setting:6051)␤called from Sub 'sink' pc 294412 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:128913) (src/gen/CORE.setting:6359)␤called from Sub 'MAIN' pc 381 (…
PerlJam Hmm.
r: my class MyInt is Int { }; my MyInt $i .= new; $i.WHAT 15:00
camelia rakudo fe7049: ( no output )
PerlJam r: my class MyInt is Int { }; my MyInt $i .= new; say $i.WHAT
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«(MyInt)␤»
PerlJam ah, well, at least that one did as I expected :)
lizmat I guess nextsame and friends are still in need of a refactor, as I see pir:: code in there 15:02
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lizmat or will jnthn's jvm code merge show us that? 15:02
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jnthn jvm-support already got rid of some of the PIR there, iirc 15:03
lizmat anyway, I think Hash.new is special in the sense that it creates hashes 15:04
whereas other .new just use hashes
and as such may warrant a special handling
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PerlJam lizmat: maybe. You're just looking for a place to pin "other behavior" onto a hash, right? (out-of-hash-band data) 15:14
masak it could be hurtful for someone who subclasses Hash, and expects to be able to pass named parameters into it. 15:15
lizmat PerlJam: not really
well, as long as the subclass "eats" its named parameters, there shouldn't be a problem 15:16
masak actually, to be it's *not* clear that `Hash.new( a => 1, b => 2 )` wants to populate the hash -- though the names of the named parameters certainly lean towards that conclusion.
but I have internalized the rules for passing parameters, so I guess I'm a bit biased.
TimToady we don't have an "eating" mechanism yet, though we've thought about it
lizmat to me, the most sense would make it if you could specify the keys to be removed from the named parameters with "nextsame" 15:17
something like "nextsame :remove('lc')" 15:18
TimToady building is not done with nextsame
it's the BUILD submethods that would remove args
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TimToady but then, removing is wrong too 15:18
what you really want is an "I've been used" flag, and a check that everything was used at least once 15:19
lizmat true
TimToady but a parent/child class could use the same argument
lizmat the most important thing is not to be silent about spelling errors in named parameters
TimToady when we start making closing/finalizing decisions and CHECK time, we can do more checks staticly 15:20
rather than slowing down construction every time
lizmat because that reduces the trust in the language
I don't think it can always be at CHECK time 15:21
TimToady no, but it might be a 95% solution
15:21 xinming left
TimToady I know, let's add a last access time to every value :) 15:22
lizmat hehe… at least it won't go to disk
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jnthn TimToady: Think is that it relies on people writing "use oo ..." pragma, which I dunno how much will happen. :) 15:23
*Thing
TimToady if the defaults are right, it'll happen by default :) 15:24
jnthn True, we could default differently :)
TimToady the default is for classes to close/finalize
unless something requests them to stay open
jnthn Oh?
TimToady it's been that way for donkey's years 15:25
jnthn S12: "Classes are open and non-final by default"
lizmat and then there's "use soft" ?
jnthn Though it goes on to say " but may easily be closed or finalized not by themselves but by the entire application, provided nobody issued an explicit compile-time request that the class stay open or non-final."
TimToady Hmm, I think the oo pragma is probably contradicting other parts of the spec... 15:26
moritz lizmat: iirc 'use soft' is about compile-time lookup of subroutines
jnthn use soft's practical upshot is mostly about .wrap.
lizmat yup, indeed
jnthn I'm not sure what "by the entire app" means here
lizmat anything between "main" and "exit" ? 15:27
jnthn I mean, if somebody is pre-compiling a module, in that case the module is the "top level" thing, so can it consider any classes that are mentioned closed?
TimToady it's not being executed though
no, module precompilation is not CHECK time in my head 15:28
why p5 has a UNITCHECK too
jnthn CHECK happens before the optimizer runs
And the optimizer had better run before we spit out the compiled code.
That's how I've had it, anyways...
TimToady but in any case CHECK can know whether it's just precompiling or not
lizmat has to go afk for a few hours 15:29
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TimToady ah, S12:2187 says the optimizer is allowed to assume oo when it thinks it can get away with it 15:31
so the oo is not required, in fact
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jnthn wonders how to know if we can get away with it ;) 15:33
moritz we just *think* we can get away with it, always 15:34
then we have met the requirement :-)
jnthn # I think this will be fine 15:35
return YesOptimizeAllTheThings;
moritz exactly
TimToady You can always get away with cheating until you're caught. :)
jnthn There's already an RT where I got caught somewhere in the optimizer :)
(Does a multi inlining that a sufficiently nasty big of mixing in can invalidate...) 15:36
TimToady so how does it currently check to see if MAIN should be run?
jnthn (Aaprt from if you did it at compile time it's too late...)
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jnthn if !$*W.is_precompilation_mode && +@*MODULES == 0 && $unit.symbol('&MAIN') { 15:37
Where @*MODULES is the stack of modules we're in the process of loading. 15:38
So if it's empty, we're in the top level.
TimToady presumably CHECK can se the same thing (except for the need for &MAIN)
*see
precomp is not allowed to make app-wide assumptions unless they can be backed out 15:39
jnthn Right, but at the moment the optimizer tends to only influence things in the compilation unit being compiled, not any others loaded. 15:40
TimToady just sayin' we hope to do better than that someday, and the specs are tilted that way
jnthn I mean, it can inline stuff *from* another compilation unit.
I've generally thought much beyond that will boil down to JIT-time things, though.
Which is what I've mostly seen the "use oo" related stuff as useful for aiding. 15:41
So it feels like an odd peg to hang named-arg-use checking on. :)
TimToady the main place where you have to be careful is with super-apps that do application-like plugins 15:42
since you never know what might be plugged in next
so you can't make assumptions about what the next plug-in will ned
*eed
however, a sane approach might be to treat those as separate interpreters, at the cost of some duplication, so each can optimize separately 15:43
that would be a memory vs speed tradeoff again
TimToady wonders how hard it would be to set up the named arg pairs with a bit that flips when it's been fetched 15:46
then the end of BUILDALL could just scan for False bits
15:46 ingyfoo is now known as ingy
jnthn At the moment, *%args is just a hash 15:46
moritz TimToady: in most settings that aren't the perl 5 VM, sneaking an extra bit in isn't easy 15:47
jnthn And it's hard to track things with a call into a user-defined BUILD. 15:48
moritz especially if we expect to compile higher-level-ish stuff like javascript
TimToady which is why you'd attach it to FETCH or some such
15:48 ingy left, ingy joined
moritz *compile to 15:48
and then you call foreign code, and all your guess about what has been used are off 15:49
*guesses
TimToady something still has to look at the value if it's going to get into the foreign code 15:50
at worst, it just marks things read that it shouldn't
which is no worse than we do now 15:51
here's another approach 15:53
define a bitmap in the Capture where each arg knows its original position, and the binder sets the correct used bit
or maybe with bits inverted, so you can check the result against 0 15:54
I guess the problem there is that you'd have to store a position where before we just had a bit 15:58
or lookup the name again
TimToady wants a hash whose fetcher steals unused low pointer bits... 15:59
GC, what's that? :)
lizmat: anyway, it's a tough problem, and one we've been thinking about for a long time now... 16:00
here's another heavyhanded approach; keep the original array, and a copy; delete from the copy, and fallback to the original if you're already deleted the copy 16:01
the copy should be empty by the end of BUILDALL 16:02
jnthn TimToady: The tricky bit I don't quite see yet is how calling a user-defined BUILD will mark things as used.
Short of introspection, which is usual a bad sign. :) 16:03
TimToady well, the most obvious place to do it is in the value fetcher; since named args are weird anyway, they could use a separate type from normal hashes 16:08
the hard problem is knowing where to store the resulting "I've been used" bit 16:09
could also attach to key lookup instead of value lookup 16:10
would have the same result from the standpoint of arg checking
and if it's a different type, it could mixin storage as needed on VMs that don't allow normal hashes extra bits 16:11
TimToady wonders, in a related vein, where the performance crossover between using a hash and a linear list of named args is... 16:13
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TimToady would not be surprised if a linear list was usually faster 16:13
(see Oberon)
jnthn I've been a little tempated to do that for the JVM port.
It doesn't actually build a hash each time though 16:14
TimToady still, you have to hash the key
jnthn It always passes named things positional-ish, and the names are associated with a callsite object.
Yeah.
So anyway, names don't get passed per call. We only go building up a hash if it's a flattening thing.
16:14 ajr joined
TimToady though hash keys can also be precomputed with sufficiently advance magic 16:14
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[Coke] So, given my blind fumbling with --profile yesterday, any pointers on making my rakudo code go fasterE? 16:16
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[Coke] hurls gist.github.com/coke/5541613 for some ugly sample code. 16:20
jnthn [Coke]: Unpackability to tie-break a multi-dispatch is not very highly optimized yet, but otoh shouldn't be too bad. 16:24
[Coke] pretty sure that combine code was on RC. ;) 16:27
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[Coke] I was tempted briefly to harcode the combinatorics for 2-3... oh. I could hard code the positions of the combinatorics once and then iterate by array position... 16:28
er, *calculate them once. 16:29
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[Coke] urk. too much javascript? I just wrote "function ..." 16:36
16:45 donaldh left
[Coke] Ok. instead of combining things directly, if I cache combinations of the few positional combinations I have to make, it shaves 7s off a 19s runtime. 16:47
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TimToady [Coke]: see also rosettacode.org/wiki/Deal_cards_for...ell#Perl_6 if you want to use Unicode card glyphs 16:52
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TimToady but yeah, this is why I decided combinations should be built-in, because it's hard to code efficiently in a high-level language, so we want some grotty low-level code to do it, in lieu of the ability to write grotty low-level code in Perl 6 eventually 16:55
16:55 bluescreen10 joined
TimToady
.oO( the C subset of Perl 6 :)
 16:56
integer combinations might be faster done in Buf types these days 16:57
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TimToady and integer combinations are a reordering slice away from combinations of anything else 17:01
a combine routine might also be faster using => lists to avoid copying 17:05
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[Coke] TimToady: I can't even cut and paste whatever those images are into this channel to see what they are. 17:12
(I get a board of what might be card backs.)
probably due to a pasteo of constant CardBlock = '🂠'.ord; 17:13
TimToady you're probably just getting rectangles from missing glyphs, which happen to resemble card backs :) 17:24
the real card back (used there in that line you quoted) has a filled rectangle inside the outer rectangle 17:25
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diakopter TimToady: I need a font for "Perl 6" for the yapc t-shirt, or do you want just the insect 17:33
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[Coke] Source Code Pro! 17:39
arnsholt A simple sans-serif like Helvetica perhaps? 17:40
jnthn Comic Sans! 17:41
[Coke] ... I'll allow it.
diakopter O_O 17:42
masak almost feels appropriate Ö=
:)
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jnthn Oh no, I should stop making jokes like this...first we got #masakism, now we get comic sans on a conf t-shirt :P 17:43
timotimo is that the polish perl workshop t-shirt? 17:44
flussence
.oO( I've always been fond of Inconsolata at large pt-sizes... )
timotimo also, i would recommend "Comic Jens" as a free-er alternative to comic sans
[Coke] .. that sounds like a font in search of a problem. 17:45
geekosaur thinks it just souns like a font problem 17:47
or problem font
diakopter Comic Sans is *sans* what?! I mean, serifs would just look silly.
jnthn
.oO( I shot the serif... )
17:49 berekuk joined
timotimo being sans is a lifestyle choice. 17:49
diakopter TimToady: oh, and I need a 1-bit color version of Camelia. white printing on blue shirt. 17:50
unless anyone else has any bright ideas for something perl6-y to put on the shirt
geekosaur .oO { that's sansible } 17:51
FROGGS_ that was the shirt of the german perl workshop this year: i.imgur.com/29xRJPC.gif 17:52
17:52 FROGGS_ is now known as FROGGS
FROGGS diakopter: what about "$*Perl6" ? 17:53
and camelia a the bottom 17:54
timotimo "look, we still have sigils!" 17:55
FROGGS and you could even in smaller letter under the camelie: .WHERE = 'Austin'\n.WHO = ... 17:59
diakopter there isn't much space already 18:01
the letters would just be dots
we're talking like 1.5" x 3" total real estate
TimToady you want a level Camelia or an angled one? white-on-blue will take some work 18:02
diakopter well, do you even want Camelia? 18:03
it's a very small space
TimToady you're the one said you wanted Camelia!
masak FROGGS: looks like they drove a stake through the onion's chest. 18:04
diakopter the hot potato is in your court
TimToady tends to just let hot potatoes land on the floor 18:05
masak so *that's* why Perl has hashes! 18:06
:P 18:07
geekosaur that'd be more why it has globs, and why those are represented with splats... 18:14
diakopter TimToady: I guess in white-on-navy the P and 6 in Camelia would be pretty distinct 18:17
timotimo FROGGS: i may not bethe typical target-audience-member, but i prefer more graphics, less text TBH 18:18
to me, the specific date range - for instance - is way too much for a tshirt i would enjoy wearing 18:19
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TimToady diakopter: hard part is getting the outline in white, if you don't want to reverse light/dark 18:24
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diakopter I need something to submit by next Sunday 18:31
*this Sunday 18:32
FROGGS masak: should be the (famous) berlins tv-tower
berlin* 18:33
masak oh, ok.
FROGGS timotimo: same for me but I got outvoted :o(
dalek p/rak-jvm-support: 591cd61 | (Donald Hunter)++ | / (6 files):
Switched readlineintfh to use JLine ConsoleReader
 18:36
p/rak-jvm-support: cb93f41 | (Donald Hunter)++ | tools/build/Makefile-JVM.in:
Fixed whitespace typo in install target.
p/rak-jvm-support: 211d54c | (Donald Hunter)++ | tools/build/install-jvm-runner.pl:
Fixed runner generator to include jline jar.
p/rak-jvm-support: f99d3db | jnthn++ | / (7 files):
Merge branch 'repl' of github.com/donaldh/nqp into rak-jvm-support
jnthn aww, it lost a commit 18:37
There was one more.
FROGGS (Donald Hunter)++ # here we go 18:38
jnthn no, it was by me :P 18:39
diakopter github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a5942d...8793d6c99f 18:40
donaldh jnthn: There's a matching pull request for rakudo/jvm-support
yoleaux 7 May 2013 23:27Z <jnthn> donaldh: thanks for the PR; I need to tweak it a bit before I can apply it, as it seems spaces instead of tabs got into the Makefile and the .bat needs updating as well as the .sh runner. Otherwise seems fine...will get to it tomorrow
dalek kudo/jvm-support: 9c60c91 | (Donald Hunter)++ | tools/build/Makefile-JVM.in:
Add jline jar and missing cleanups.
kudo/jvm-support: f513db4 | (Donald Hunter)++ | / (2 files):
Fixes for --with-nqp=... removed hardcoded install-jvm
jnthn donaldh: Noticed you caught the tab/space thing yourself :) 18:41
donaldh Yep
Grr. Eclipse being too clever.
18:42 grondilu joined, frdmn joined
grondilu rn: say my Int $ = "4"; 18:42
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$'; expected 'Int' but got 'Str'␤ in block at /tmp/jDWygnMVVc:1␤␤»
..niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Nominal type check failed for scalar store; got Str, needed Int or subtype␤ at /tmp/e70sRrtMhM line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4329 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4330 …
grondilu shouldn't a conversion be made automatically? 18:43
jnthn No
It's a type constraint.
grondilu :/ 18:44
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FROGGS ohh 18:44
[Coke] r: say my Int $ = "4".Int;
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«4␤»
FROGGS jnthn++
grondilu But if I want to read an integer from stdin, then I have to do: my Int $ = get.Int; That's annoying. 18:45
masak grondilu: you don't expect a conversion to be made automatically when you try to assign an Employee object to a variable typed as Subscription. so why with Str and Int?
timotimo grondilu: try +get 18:46
grondilu rn: say my Int $ = +"4";
camelia rakudo fe7049, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«4␤»
grondilu timotimo: good idea. It's much less bothersome.
also, get xx $someInt is not parsed correctly. Rakudo complains about the function xx not existing. I have to write get() xx $someInt. Shouldn't get xx $someInt be parsed as such? 18:49
masak heh, I remember submitting tickets and being generally noisy to make prefix:<+> produce the narrowest type possible, so that typing it Int there would work :)
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masak grondilu: no, because 'get' is a listop. 18:50
grondilu: and so the parser expects a term, not an infix.
timotimo right, compare with get 1024 which would be get(1024) 18:51
masak put differently, 'get xx $someInt' is short for 'get( xx $someInt )'
18:53 donaldh left
FROGGS if there was a xx prefix it will do the wrong thing silently 18:53
masak r: sub prefix:<xx>($) { "the wrong thing silently" }; say xx 42 18:55
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«the wrong thing silently␤»
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TimToady diakopter: first whack at white-on-blue Camelia: wall.org/~larry/cameliawb.png 19:06
diakopter like 19:07
TimToady don't know if trying for shading would help at all
diakopter but.. it's purple
TimToady it's "blue 2" to LibreDraw 19:08
lizmat not a color you would expect with Chromakey
diakopter I didn't *think* I was colorblind...
I'd send you a screenshot, but ..... *giggle* 19:09
TimToady anyway, you'd probably want that part transparent for actual printing
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lizmat rn: my $s= set( a => 1, b => 0 ); say $s 19:10
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«2 unexpected named parameters passed (a, b)␤ in sub set at src/gen/CORE.setting:13063␤ in block at /tmp/I_EuAWUac3:1␤␤»
..niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to set, unused named a, b␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (set @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/cHLsGLCQ34 line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4329 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza…
lizmat it wasn't me, I didn't do it 19:11
[Coke] is it me, or does that image have 3 colors?
diakopter O_O
oh yes, there's a black arc 19:12
well, and a gray TM
lizmat rn: my $s= Set.new( a => 1, b => 0 ); say $s 19:14
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«set()␤»
..niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to Set.new, unused named a, b␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (Set.new @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/t83smByPIU line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4329 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eva…
lizmat I'm not sure I understand the difference between set() and Set.new :-(
moritz wow, mysql does funny things 19:19
SELECT DATE('2012-06-14') - DATE('2005-02-26');
70388 19:20
r: say 20120614 - 20050226
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«70388␤»
diakopter moritz: try DATEDIFF('2012-06-14 23:59:59', '2005-02-26'); 19:22
moritz diakopter: I found that too; was just curious what it actually did
lizmat always used TO_DAYS()
grondilu rn: my Bag $bag .= new: <foo foo bar>; for $bag.keys X $bag.keys -> $a, $b { say $a, $b } 19:23
lizmat if I remember correctly
camelia rakudo fe7049: ( no output )
..niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«foofoo␤foobar␤barfoo␤barbar␤»
TimToady new version really in 2 colors
19:23 donaldh left
grondilu should I report this bug? 19:24
moritz r: my Bag $bag .= new: <foo foo bar>; say $bag.keys.perl 19:25
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«("foo", "bar").list␤»
moritz grondilu: yes please
grondilu does it 19:26
PerlJam moritz: but why were you asking mysql about dates when you have a perfectly good Perl 6 compiler you could ask? ;)
lizmat rn: my $s= set( ( a => 1, b => 0 ) ); say $s
camelia rakudo fe7049, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«set(a, b)␤»
moritz PerlJam: because the IR Clogs use mysql as a backend, not Perl 6 :-)
PerlJam: but I did cross-check with rakudo's Date :-) 19:27
TimToady diakopter: anyway, original is in .odg, so can export in any convenient format; lemme know if you want it tilted 19:28
PerlJam That's my primary usage of Rakudo I think. I tend to run little snippets ... sometimes I'm testing Perl 6 stuff, but many times I'm actually using the REPL for it's computing ability in one way or another. 19:29
dalek p/rak-jvm-support: 199e8b6 | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
Prepare for some extra :decl(...) possibilities.

These will cover things that today require code generation or are not available at NQP level, but probably should be. It will allow Perl 6's custom lexpad type to be eliminated in favor of the shared NQP one, as well as simplifying code generation for certain constructs and giving us a freer hand in how we compile time. Mostly, this just documents the new things.
lizmat feels stupid for not being able to find where set() is specced 19:32
S02:1419 ? 19:33
TimToady yes 19:34
lizmat S32/Containers:1102 states: "A C<Set> responds to hash operators as if it were a C<Hash of True>." 19:35
somehow that doesn't feel right with including "b" in the set with this: 19:36
my $s= set( ( a => 1, b => 0 ) ); say $s
set(a, b)
I would have expected: set(a)
PerlJam r: my $s = set( a => 1, b => Nil ); say $a; 19:37
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable '$a' is not declared␤at /tmp/YCgWYxN6hs:1␤------> my $s = set( a => 1, b => Nil ); say $a⏏;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
PerlJam r: my $s = set( a => 1, b => Nil ); say $s;
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«2 unexpected named parameters passed (a, b)␤ in sub set at src/gen/CORE.setting:13063␤ in block at /tmp/sEn4GBfuEl:1␤␤»
PerlJam r: my $s = set( (a => 1, b => Nil) ); say $s;
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«set(a, b)␤»
PerlJam r: my $s = set( (a => 1, b => ) ); say $s;
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix => instead␤at /tmp/C4lmoSdnVs:1␤------> my $s = set( (a => 1, b => ⏏) ); say $s;␤»
PerlJam r: my $s = set( (a => 1, b => False ) ); say $s;
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«set(a, b)␤»
PerlJam fails at using the bot today
moritz r: say set( 'a', 'b')
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«set(a, b)␤»
TimToady it's assuming that anything with keys came from another set, where you'd never get a False value becuase they're autodeleting
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TimToady nr: my $s = set( set(1,2) ); say $s.perl 19:38
camelia rakudo fe7049, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«set("1", "2")␤»
19:39 SamuraiJack left
TimToady but that should probably not flatten there 19:39
lizmat rn: my %h= ( a => 1, b => 0 ); my $s= set(%h); say $s
camelia rakudo fe7049, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«set(a, b)␤»
TimToady nr: my $s = set( set(1,2).item ); say $s.perl
camelia rakudo fe7049, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«set("1", "2")␤»
TimToady that should *definitely* not flatten with .item
so I'd say it should be ripping out the whole pair/hash recognition thing in any case 19:40
otherwise we can't have a set of sets 19:41
moritz so sets don't make the assumptions that elements are strings?
TimToady shouldn't
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TimToady nr: my $s = set(1,2); say set($s).perl 19:42
camelia rakudo fe7049, niecza v24-42-g69a3432: OUTPUT«set("1", "2")␤»
lizmat S32/Containers:1112 "Regardless of their behavior as hashes, Sets and Bags do not flatten in list context." I assume?
TimToady yes 19:43
for that reason
so current implementations are a bit spec-rotted :)
lizmat but what would "keys" give on the outer set() of sets? 19:44
TimToady it would give the inner set as the key
moritz a list of sets
lizmat duh, of course
and the value would be True? 19:45
TimToady doesn't recall whether anyone has bothered to implement object-keyed hashes yet...
lizmat is pretty that hasn't happened yet
*sure
moritz TimToady: rakudo does them, iirc
TimToady
.oO(sure pretty?)
jnthn r: my %h{Any}; %h{2} = 'two'; say %h.keys[0].WHAT 19:46
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
moritz r: my %h{Any}; %h{1} = 2; say %h.keys[0].^name
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«Int␤»
moritz oh, jnthn++ was faster
jnthn bovvad :P
I think the Set code may have been borrowed from Niecza, which iirc doesn't do object-keyd hashes. 19:47
lizmat r: my %h= ( set(<a b>) => 1 ); say %h
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«("a b" => 1).hash␤»
jnthn So it may not be too hard to update them to use them in Rakudo.
lizmat is this an artefact of the gist ?
jnthn lizmat: No, string keys are the default. 19:48
r: my %h{Mu} = ( set(<a b>) => 1 ); say %h
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«(set("a", "b") => 1).hash␤»
TimToady sets need to be taught to default to Any instead
or Mu
if you want junctions as set elements :)
that seems likely to lead to a world of hurt, however... 19:49
jnthn May just be chaning "has %!elems;" to has %!elems{Any};
*changing
TimToady too easy, hasta be harder
jnthn yeah, that probably hits bootstrap issues :P
TimToady vicarious suffering, and all that 19:50
jnthn is in the middle of de-Parroting another chunk of Rakudo at the moment, but could look at it in a bit if nobody beats him to it :)
TimToady should eat lunch an hour ago instead of blue-printing Camelia
lizmat Tardis is out of order :-( 19:51
arnsholt jnthn: Now that $dayjob is less crazy, I'm wondering: How much of my semi-completed 6modelisation work of NQP/Parrot has been done by you in the meantime?
tadzik grins at YE2013 tag cloud 19:54
"perl perl5 perl6 perl7"
donaldh jnthn: Any thoughts about source level debugging in nqp/jvm, i.e. what pieces are missing and whether it's an approachable piece of work?
masak , just for fun, tries spectesting a ' has %!elems{Any};' change
lizmat jnthn: vm/parrot/guts/bind.c lines 1036 through 1061 seem to be in violation of S12 (just like my proposal to fix Hash.new)
masak tadzik: good news is no-one is all excited about perl4 any more :P
lizmat willing to cut it out for you and spectest that
masak let the spectesting begin! 19:55
tadzik masak: well, "Submit talk", here I come :P
moritz experimental new design for irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/ 19:56
please tell me if it makes sense to you, and if you like it
tadzik did we just click it all at once?
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tadzik doesn't load here :) 19:56
jnthn lizmat: I...don't think it is.
lizmat: What bit of S12? 19:57
tadzik moritz: the darker the more active?
lizmat jnthn: me is checking the exact location
jnthn arnsholt: Not loads; I've mostly been working on the things we need for Rakudo. I did much of the HLL related changes, though...
masak tadzik: I dare you to submit a perl4 talk! :D 19:58
jnthn donaldh: The most immediately obvious missing piece is getting the line numbers stored.
donaldh In the generated .class es
moritz tadzik: yes. (At least that was the idea; I now think I accidentally reveresed the colors :-)
jnthn donaldh: Yes. 19:59
donaldh: I'm guessing asm must have a way to do that side of things.
donaldh jnthn: Yep, I think so.
jnthn donaldh: The other piece is getting the QAST -> JAST phase to stash the info somewhere.
lizmat jnthn: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-05-08#i_7035348
arnsholt jnthn: Cool. I'll probably start off trying to get more of that in place then. I've seen some talk of list speedups. Is that QRPA (or something similar to that) being created for nqp::list instead of RPA?
moritz yes, at least for $!storage in List (iirc) 20:00
jnthn donaldh: Once that's in I guess the backtrace printing can be updated to include the info too... :)
lizmat: I'm not sure I see the issue. I was saying that Rakudo got things right. 20:01
donaldh jnthn: yep I wondered if there was still QAST transform work to be done. I'll take a look at it.
jnthn donaldh: lemme give you a few pointers...
lizmat r: my $s= set( a => 1); say $s 20:02
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«Unexpected named parameter 'a' passed␤ in sub set at src/gen/CORE.setting:13063␤ in block at /tmp/y28aZn06vw:1␤␤»
tadzik masak: I'm considering submitting "Perl Workshop for Dummies"
donaldh jnthn: much appreciated
tadzik but I'll probably wait to see how it turns out on plpw
masak tadzik: sounds nice :)
lizmat jnthn: I would expect that to fail silently
tadzik act.yapc.eu/plpw2013/talk/4813 that one
lizmat jnthn: or am I missing something here? 20:03
jnthn lizmat: moment, lemme look the things up for donaldh++ first... :) 20:04
lizmat okidoki!
jnthn needs more pairs of hands to type on more keyboards...
masak tadzik: s/Do'h/D'oh/ 20:05
jnthn donaldh: The QAST nodes sometimes have a .node set. You can see some places it's used around github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/s...r.nqp#L618
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lizmat masak: duh! 20:05
tadzik masak: Do'h. Fixed
jnthn donaldh: The way it's done here is that PIRT::Node got a .node method also. YOu could instead just have a JAST::Annotation however
masak tadzik: ;) 20:06
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masak or should I say "he'h". 20:06
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tadzik h'eh 20:06
moritz h'e'h
jnthn donaldh: github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/s...T.nqp#L287 shows how $!node can be used in order to obtain a line number.
TimToady suddenly feels like he's in a fantasy novel... 20:07
moritz r: sub h'e'h() { say "d'o'h" }; h'e'h
camelia rakudo fe7049: OUTPUT«d'o'h␤»
jnthn donaldh: It does a little work to try and avoid duplicate generations.
TimToady P'erl 6
jnthn donaldh: er, repetitions of the same line number, I mean.
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donaldh jnthn: Yep, I'll check to see if asm already covers that case. 20:08
jnthn donaldh: Anyway, the critical pieces are that QAST nodes may have a .node (not all of 'em, by any means) and that HLL::Compiler.lineof can use that to produce a line number. :)
donaldh: There's only one file per compilation unit so that's easy to handle :) 20:09
donaldh jnthn: Great, that gives me an idea of where to start :-)
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jnthn lizmat: iiuc, the confusion may be that the rules for methods and subs are different. 20:10
lizmat: Methods that are not in an "is hidden" class get an extra *%_ parameter by default.
lizmat jnthn: that might well be
jnthn lizmat: Subs do not.
lizmat: That code path in the binder is not hit for methods because thee is a *%_ which noms all the left-over nameds. 20:11
*there
lizmat: It's there for subs, blocks, etc.
Or methods marked "is hidden"
er, methods *in classes* marked "is hidden", I meant.
lizmat so, that's why set() complains, and Set.new is silent 20:12
jnthn *nod*
lizmat feels like an implementation artefact to me :-(
but if that's the way it is supposed to be, I'll stop nagging :-)
jnthn lizmat: Well, I'm only saying "the current implementation's handling of leftover nameds matches the spec as far as I know", not "set and Set.new are doing the right things" :) 20:14
lizmat fair enough :-)
I'll make an issue for it, so (Any) can think / respond to it 20:15
I guess there aren't that many builtins that take named parameters 20:16
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[Coke] irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/ is hanging for me, btw. 20:34
lizmat ditto 20:35
working again now 20:41
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lizmat will sleep a night before starting a new issue& 20:47
masak 'night, lizmat 20:51
[Coke] irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/ is still hanging for me.
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labster ^ That URL takes a long time to load. But I do like the calendar view. 21:54
labster clicks a random log from 2005
"I think File::Spec's behavior could accomplished with Roles" 21:55
masak 'night, #perl6
labster o.O
night masak
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dalek p/rak-jvm-support: c088706 | jnthn++ | src/vm/parrot/pmc/nqplex (2 files):
Start updating NQPLexPad/NQPLexInfo.

This gives them the ability to handle containers; state vars still to come.		 22:14
p/rak-jvm-support: c6a5294 | jnthn++ | src/vm/parrot/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
Compile QAST::Var decl static/contvar/statevar.
p/rak-jvm-support: c088706 | jnthn++ | src/vm/parrot/pmc/nqplex (2 files):
Start updating NQPLexPad/NQPLexInfo.

This gives them the ability to handle containers; state vars still to come.
nqp/rak-jvm-support: c6a5294 | jnthn++ | src/vm/parrot/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
jnthn huh, why'd it report 'em twice...
timotimo (and then stop in the middle) 22:16
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jnthn Almost there with getting rid of the Perl6LexPad/Perl6LexInfo PMCs completely. Should be able to get that bit out of the way tomorrow and move on to the next challenge in the porting. :) 22:59
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labster sounds great 23:02
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[Coke] jnthn++ 23:11
jnthn 'night o/ 23:19
[Coke] rakudo makes me write better code because if I did it the wrong way it woudl be waaaay too slow. :P 23:26
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