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Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
ruoso sorear: yay... apparently it worked :) 00:01
and if everything goes right I will have the support for blocked threads implemented
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ruoso ah... one other kinda fundamental problem 00:29
TimToady stupid language designer? :)
ruoso heh...
more concrete problem, actually
rakudo on jvm has the worker threads fundamentally different than the others 00:30
than the main thread, I mean
so I can't schedule the main thread...
TimToady hmm, that's a Java-Think thing, isn't it? (iirc)
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ruoso well... yeah... I guess the correct semantics would be to have the main thread doing only scheduling 00:31
TimToady one could switch to a model in which the main thread jsut starts the first worker thread...or that
does Java always send (some) signals to the main thread? 00:32
that would argue it should be the scheduler, I suppose
ruoso hmm... I'd have to re-read that part...
I don't quite remember how posix signals are mapped to java
TimToady is pulling factoids out of his memory that are probably far from accurate 00:33
not having worked with Java for fifteen years or so...
ruoso has last touched java in 2006 00:34
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ruoso I guess I could use continuation trickery to move the main line of execution to one of the scheduled threads... 00:35
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sorear ruoso: woohoo 01:05
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ruoso hacking to move the main line of execution to one of the scheduled threads, leaving the main program only watching for the scheduled threads 01:07
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sorear ruoso: i forgot, why is this necessary? 01:24
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ruoso sorear: no perl or nqp-level code can be running in the main thread, because we can't let the threads block, we have to save the continuation and assign other thread instead 02:42
*assign other task instaed
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ruoso .tell jnthn I thikn we need to move the entire threading support to nqp, because the scheduler needs to start earlier and all actual code need to move to one of the scheduled threads, otherwise we won't be able to switch context in the main thread 03:09
yoleaux ruoso: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
ruoso looking at javaflow... I think this could be done entirely on the java side and be exposed as very few intrinsics 03:23
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ruoso hmmm javaflow actually requires a lot of mechanics... may not be suitable 03:24
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sorear ruoso: why can't we let the initial thread block? 03:28
AFAIK, the only difference between the initial thread and others is that when the initial thread exits, it takes the process with it? 03:29
diakopter sorear: I thought on some platforms only the initial thread receives certain signals 03:32
sorear: I don't remember where I read that 03:33
benabik I don't think the JVM does signals. 03:34
sorear ==benabik 03:35
diakopter ok; I didn't know we were only talking about the jvm 03:36
ruoso sorear: if the initial thread is different, we will have to keep checking everywhere to know if we are in the main thread or not 03:39
which is going to be expensive and error prone 03:40
like, every place that would block will have to see "hey, if this is the main thread, I can't yeld the continuation, i have to use a lock instead "
sorear ruoso: but what if the initial thread is just the same as all the other threads? 03:42
ruoso if by "the same" you mean having the same continuationreset tag and being able to save the continuation to the queue, yes, that would solve the problem 03:43
but as it is now, there's no way to save the continuation, push to the queue and take the next item from the queue in the main thread 03:44
the point I am trying to make is that the code running perl6 (or nqp) "main" should already simply be one task to be executed in the thread pool 03:50
because if that code ends up in the other side of a slow promise, it needs to yield and let the other unblocked tasks to run 03:53
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jdv79 is stm still "on the map"? 04:00
just curious 04:01
ruoso jdv79: i don't think stm every got a real implementation 04:02
s/every/ever/
I mean, not restricted to Perl 6, but anywhere
sorear it's mature tech in haskell 04:03
jdv79 so you think perl6 will get it evet? 04:04
*do
sorear in some form, yes 04:05
NCAS is cool
it's not clear whether it can be transparently integrated with the rest of the language without causing unacceptable performance loss
ruoso Hah! after adding async around my entire sudoku solver and having $*SCHEDULER.main_loop explicitly called in the end of my main code, I have blocked threads working 04:06
sorear sweet
jdv79 thansk 04:08
*thanks
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TimToady ruoso++ 04:31
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japhb Gah. Segfaults with rakudo-parrot are making me really want rakudo-jvm working with panda. 07:08
donaldh++ # Fixing remaining blockers to rakudo-jvm hugging pandas 07:09
tadzik two things I stumbled upon when trying is 1) running outside source directory 2) modifying INC through -I or PERL6LIB 07:22
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moritz tadzik: did you try 1) after the 'make install' patches? 07:24
tadzik moritz: donaldh's patches? Nah, didn't
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japhb .tell timotimo I'm merging your JVM changes to perl6-bench (plus updating to the latest rakudo-jvm build instructions) in my local tree, but the testing is taking a while. After I push just that, I'll start looking through your other improvements. 07:26
yoleaux japhb: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
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japhb shuffles off to bed, early day tomorrow 07:28
&
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timotimo japhb: cool, thanks :) 08:07
yoleaux 07:26Z <japhb> timotimo: I'm merging your JVM changes to perl6-bench (plus updating to the latest rakudo-jvm build instructions) in my local tree, but the testing is taking a while. After I push just that, I'll start looking through your other improvements.
mathw o/ 08:09
FROGGS o/ 08:11
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jnthn morning, #perl6 08:30
mathw lo jnthn
FROGGS morning jnthn
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dalek : 6c54f53 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
pull in changes from rakudo d3bd8dfbfe8b282d879643a5b06a724304b8e048
 08:37
masak morning, #perl6
masak is teaching today
timotimo have fun! :) 08:38
masak I am having fun :)
timotimo good. because i'm not paying you to not have fun.
masak :) 08:39
timotimo HR analysis says you make more money when you're having fun, so have fun or you're FIRED!
you make *us* more money, to be more exact
masak ...no pressure.
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mathw heh 08:41
mathw is also teaching today, informally, in the sense that his colleagues require a big infodump before mathw goes on holiday 08:42
no doubt I'll forget to tell them something really important
on saturday I was teaching aikido to children, that was more fun. We had a good class and they handled it well. 08:43
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masak mathw: was the big infodump avoidable? maybe you should optimize for getting trapped knowledge out into wikis and documents? 08:44
FROGGS gah, documentation 08:45
FROGGS shudders
masak that seems to be the general reaction, yes.
timotimo just write more test cases instead 08:46
masak if only everything were more like the (good) SYNOPSIS blocks on CPAN.
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timotimo discovers, that "loop invariants" are a very, very good thing. 08:46
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timotimo also, the good thing about off-by-ones is that it's not dangerous to let them multiply 08:46
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timotimo huh. preallocating the list to the size it's supposed to have and then inserting items with splice is not helpful, because the "empty slots" just get pushed back, too ... 08:51
r: my @vals = 1, 2, 3; @vals[5] = Nil; say @vals; splice @vals, 2, 0, (3, 2, 1); say @vals; 08:52
camelia rakudo ce2453: OUTPUT«1 2 3 (Any) (Any) (Any)␤1 2 3 2 1 3 (Any) (Any) (Any)␤»
dalek p/child-env: e8fb2cf | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/ (3 files):
Pass %*ENV contents into ProcessBuilder in nqp::shell
p: e8fb2cf | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/ (3 files):
Pass %*ENV contents into ProcessBuilder in nqp::shell
 08:56
p: 8733f0e | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/ (3 files):
Merge pull request #111 from perl6/child-env

Pass %*ENV contents into ProcessBuilder in nqp::shell Fixes 1 rakudo spectest in S02-magicals/env.t
timotimo awesome! :) 08:57
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lizmat good *, #perl6! 09:16
jnthn o/ lizmat 09:17
lizmat r: my $h is dynamic; $h<a>=1; say $h<a>.VAR.dynamic # expected 1
camelia rakudo ce2453: OUTPUT«0␤»
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lizmat I guess the autovivication of $h into a hash, is not copying the container 09:17
should we consider this a bug? 09:18
jnthn We did this case yesterday, no?
lizmat feels like a bug to me
jnthn $h ends up as a Scalar that contains a hash.
lizmat no, that was the case where we *had* a hash before
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jnthn It doesn't magically change from being a scalar 09:18
lizmat that was the one where I explicitely put a Hash.new in there
this one is implicit 09:19
jnthn Yes, that's what auto-viv is doing really.
lizmat { SELF.defined || &infix:<=>(SELF, Hash.new);
jnthn Right.
So it's just the same :)
lizmat well, yes, from a core developer point of view 09:20
not so sure from a language user point of view
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lizmat I guess TimToady will let us know if he has any specific thoughts about this case 09:22
dalek kudo/nom: f0ee01d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (3 files):
Make .dynamic return a Bool rather than some number
 09:23
lizmat r: my $a is dynamic(0); say $a.VAR.dynamic # wonder whether this behaviour should be part of the spec 09:24
camelia rakudo ce2453: OUTPUT«0␤»
FROGGS lizmat: the venue in 3 weeks is still the Jugendherberge? you already got a conference room or some such?
lizmat FROGGS: the Jugendherberge is out 09:25
FROGGS k
so I dont have to get something nearby :o)
lizmat Roland Schmitz is looking whether it would be possible to hold it in the conf room of the company he works for
FROGGS ohh cool
lizmat would be close to the YAPC::EU benue
venue
I hope to hear about that later today
FROGGS cool, thank you 09:26
lizmat the other alternative is still on holday for the next 2 weeks, so much less likely to come through
otoh, all we need is a room with tables and chairs
projectors / screen / whiteboard / electricty blocks / etc. we can bring
FROGGS and ecleptic power 09:27
lizmat well, yes
Timbus .. so python has a 'for.. else' and now im annoyed that perl 6 doesn't.
lizmat but 12 notebooks and a projector is not a lot of pwoer
Timbus how do I fix that
FROGGS true
lizmat power
FROGGS Timbus: and the else happens when the list is empty?
Timbus it happens when the for doesn't exit via a 'last' 09:28
lizmat Timbus: 1 you change the spec, 2 nobody complains for a while, 3 you implement ?
Timbus or whatever the break statement is
lizmat fwiw, I've had cases where I had to add an extra layer of if 09:29
which for / else would have covered :-)
Timbus i guess in my case i could use next LABEL if it was implemented
FROGGS Timbus: that sounds like a continue block (Perl 5)
Timbus yes a bit
lizmat especially in combination with FIRST
FROGGS Timbus: but it is only executed once?
Timbus well uh. its a for in-a-for and i can skip the exceptional case using next. but only in this case 09:30
lizmat if @todo { say "doing"; for @todo { … } } else { say "notihng to do" } 09:31
would become
Timbus (if labels worked)
lizmat for @todo { FIRST say "doing"; … } else { say "nothing to do" }
FROGGS so it would be like this? for ^3 { .say } else { say 42 } # 0 1 2 42
lizmat FROGGS: no that would be just 0 1 2
FROGGS and for ^3 { .say; last } else { say 42 } # 0 1 2
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Timbus lizmat has a polar opposite need 09:32
both are cool things to have :v
oh dear
grondilu_ one thought about macros: has anyone considered using (( )) instead of {{{ }}}?
lizmat I haven't been feeling well lately, yes :-)
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Timbus eh wait, shouldnt that be 09:34
for ^3 { .say; last } else { say 42 } # 0
lizmat Timbus: yes
Timbus not 0 1 2
lizmat in my pov
the else would only fire if the for has nothing to do 09:35
jnthn (would be close to the YAPC::EU venue) I hope that's close in distance, not close in temperature :P 09:36
mathw masak: the big infodump would've been avoidable if we'd been sensible enough to avoid specialising so much within the team. But we didn't. Thus are lessons learned. 09:37
lizmat jnthn: close in distance is what I can guarantee, temperature not so much
jnthn :)
FROGGS Timbus: I was asking what you want to have
lizmat
.oO( must take fans with us as well, just in case )
 09:38
Timbus well, its what python has 09:39
jnthn
.oO( Don't forget to bring the groupies too! )
 09:41
lizmat
.oO( the beard stroking kind? )
 09:42
FROGGS *g*
I was going to ask about that
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lizmat the groupies ? 09:42
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diakopter groupies = fans who travel along 09:45
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timotimo maybe we should start advertising perl6 as nosql. will that help publicity? 09:55
jnthn No, no, you should advertise it as WEB SCALE! 09:56
Like /dev/null is advertised 09:57
diakopter it's web 6.0
JimmyZ advertising perl6 as noperl5
tadzik let's advertise JVM interop moar 09:59
Su-Shee was very surprised when I told her about this
timotimo we don't make sufficiently big waves?
maybe we should do that after our method invocation sugar is there 10:00
brrt web 6.0 is actually pretty good
i like
jnthn Yes, let's get that in place first :) Then it'll be much nicer. :)
diakopter lol i like
timotimo except perl6's main focus isn't web development ;) 10:01
brrt what kind of development today isn't web development in some way?
timotimo embedded development!
brrt well, yes
timotimo a very strong suit for perl6, now that ram is so cheap!
jnthn heh, the last (and only) place I worked that did embedded were putting in an embedded web server :P 10:02
DrEeevil where "embedded" means 1.5Ghz quadcore with 8GB RAM ? ;)
timotimo ... i guess i lose :)
DrEeevil: as long as you put it into a little box, it's embedded
brrt how little
DrEeevil allrighty then
timotimo brrt: smaller than a 19" rack :)
DrEeevil ... how little is "little" these days? I remember the old computers coming in a fullsize rack equivalent form factor 10:03
nwc10 JimmyZ++ # advertising perl6 as noperl5
Timbus beaglebone boards use node.js and callbacks to handle events on gpio pins :/
feels so strange
brrt which is evil
DrEeevil if I had had some money I could have gotten 16 racks of Alpha goodness ...
brrt brb folks
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DrEeevil Timbus: wat :) that's amazingly inefficient 10:03
timotimo oooh alpha
would you have ported moarvm to alpha? :D
nwc10 currently thinks that the strong points of Perl 6 will be 10:04
1) first class grammars
timotimo moar might even do perl6 efficiently enough for the now somewhat dusty alpha processors
nwc10 2) gradual typing
3) concurrency
4) NFG
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nwc10 (people aren't going to appreciate that last one for a few years) 10:04
DrEeevil timotimo: heh, the "dusty" alphas @ 1.4Ghz still have enough oomph to compete with most other things
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timotimo they have many cores, don't they? 10:05
DrEeevil the dual 500Mhz a friend of mine had was on average equivalent to my 2Ghz dualcore amd64 ...
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timotimo wow, that's actually pretty impressive 10:05
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DrEeevil yeah. they are amazingly designed, but were killed by bad management and FUD 10:05
arnsholt Yeah, I remember my PPC Mac being pretty spiffy as well, even if the clock speed wasn't the same as the X86 processors 10:06
lizmat starts working on porting colomon's set/bag work from Niecza to Rakudo again
timotimo their bios alone was light years ahead and it seems like they still are better than efi
DrEeevil arnsholt: yeah, the G3 surprised me ...
diakopter bag, set, groupies = band lingo 10:07
DrEeevil OpenFirmware, which was a Forth interpreter afair? that's the sane way to do it
UEFI, liek, ur has CODE, now is maek compiel ... if compiel you say "done" and bossman happy
lizmat
.oO( …. a joy forever )
 10:08
DrEeevil I still have not managed to boot a UEFI machine cleanly, so I claim UEFI is the most expensive blinky cursor app ever 10:09
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mathw I always liked OpenFirmware 10:18
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donaldh what is in progress for JVM method invocation sugar? 10:42
jnthn started poking at it, but doesn't have anything working yet 10:43
donaldh is well impressed with what has been done already, after reading jnthn++s YAPC talk
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donaldh so, panda uses chdir. I'm starting to think that changing panda to not use chdir is close to a rewrite of panda 10:53
timotimo yeah i suppose so
donaldh It does stuff like indir $where { … } 10:54
and the expectation of what can be done in the block is, well, pretty much everything.
jnthn
.oO( Making it an acid test for our chdir emulation on JVM... )
donaldh oO( damn that positive spin from jnthn ) 10:55
tadzik oh, hm 10:56
what panda expects of the individual workers is "here is the directory, do your work with it"
workers don't really have to chdir there. They do so because it's easier
also, it's required for tests I'm afraid 10:57
tests often rely on stuff being available in the current directory
also, are we just discussing changing code because we have no chdir() on JVM or what? :)
timotimo yes :)
tadzik *grumble* 10:58
jnthn We'll have to do the chdir stuff on JVM at some point... 10:59
It's probably better to spend the tuits on doing that rather than on changing Panda. Otherwise we'll just run up against it again when something else in the eocsystem needs it... 11:00
donaldh agreed
jnthn I agree it's not much fun.
donaldh Bits of it are really easy. Like shell
tadzik I outright refuse to change panda for these reasons :) 11:01
timotimo i support you in this decision. we have to do it even if it hurts
donaldh The one that worries me is chdir $where; rm_rf $dir; 11:02
Really need to decide whether CWD is global or thread local and whether we let race conditions break that one. 11:05
tadzik oh, heh 11:06
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donaldh Oh, it's specced as thread local perlcabal.org/syn/S16.html#line_182 11:09
phew 11:10
lizmat yes, that would be the only way to make sense, at least to me 11:15
which also means that we would need this mechanism for MoarVM, I think
because I'm pretty sure chdir is not thread local on many OS's 11:16
similarly, one could consider chdir to be block local
especially in the context of Promises and Channels 11:17
pdurbin lots of JVM chatter in here. must be a current focus
lizmat since Promises are handled by a thread pool, we don't want one Promises' chdir' to mess up the other Promises that just happen to be handled by the same thread
s/block local/lexcial/ 11:18
*lexical 11:19
*sigh*
lizmat gets another cuppa
donaldh yikes 11:21
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brrt back 11:22
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lizmat donaldh: yikes ? 11:24
feels to me, chdir() is more live a lexical pragma
donaldh okay, so $*CWD is currently just a Str and can be modified ( no side-effects ) 11:25
true for all backends from what I can see.
lizmat maybe all it needs is a STORE proxy that attaches a LEAVE block on the block it is called from ? 11:26
jnthn Perhaps it's more that async { ... } should localize $*CWD 11:27
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lizmat why would you make that special ? 11:29
donaldh runs away
lizmat fwiw, the globalness of chdir has always been a hassle to me
donaldh yeah, most common shell idiom is (cd $where; do_stuff) 11:30
i.e. cd inside a block scope
suggestion: remove the chdir op on all backends and always do chdir "emulation". 11:34
lizmat donaldh++
donaldh Otherwise chdir functionality will be threads broken on parrot and MoarVM 11:35
lizmat also note that S16:182 predates the advent of Promises and implicit thread pools
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S16.html#line_182
donaldh Yep, i suspect it predates S32 as well. 11:36
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donaldh When S16 talks about Path, does it mean IO::Path as specced in S32 ? 11:38
lizmat I guess it does
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donaldh Okay, so the first step might be to rewrite $*CWD impl to use IO::Path and follow what is said so far in S16. i.e. check dir exists first. 11:40
dalek ecs: 0567d88 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S16-io.pod:
Small Path -> IO::Path cleanup
donaldh Then it's trivial to get shell to use $*CWD.
and then a bunch of work to trawl through all the file ops. 11:41
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lizmat also check it's not a relative path :-) 11:42
leont What's the equivalent of perl5's $! ?
tadzik $!, duh ;) 11:43
but inside a CATCH, that's $_ I think
masak aye.
because a 'CATCH' is a 'given' on the exception it catches. 11:44
donaldh okay, I'm willing to hack on $*CWD / chdir. 11:45
leont Didn't seem to work for me when I tried that, must have been doing something else wrong then
donaldh I'm going to need some guidance on how to implement a thread local / block local $*CWD
jnthn easiest way in async is to just do a closure wrap trick 11:46
donaldh plus ideas about what the nqp layer abstraction should look like.
lunch& 11:50
lizmat wonders whether $*CWD would need any nqp support 11:51
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donaldh lizmat: either the nqp file op signatures need to change, or they all need wrapped, or they need to lookup the current $*CWD value 11:53
lizmat ah, of course, yes 11:54
donaldh lunch&; disown
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moritz it seems to me that ops are low-level enough that they shouldn't look up a dynamic variable from user space 12:05
dalek kudo/nom: 2857585 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Make "my $a of Array of Int" work (for typechecks at lowest level)
 12:07
lizmat moritz: you're probably right, but OTOH it would simplify customizing $*CWD behaviour 12:08
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lizmat r: my %a of Array; say %a.of; %a<a>=1 # something spooky with "of", although the typecheck works 12:09
camelia rakudo f0ee01: OUTPUT«(Mu)␤Type check failed in assignment to '%a'; expected 'Array' but got 'Int'␤ in block at /tmp/ROjtEHKjxp:1␤␤»
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moritz lizmat: well, the wrappers around the nqp ops in rakudo can resolve $*CWD for them 12:13
jnthn lizmat: Guess it's not doing the mixin
jnthn looks at le patch
lizmat the patch was to fix another problem 12:14
moritz lizmat: for example we could spec sub run($program, :$cwd = $*CWD)
lizmat I think the problem is with .of, and that lives somewhere in NQP land I guess
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jnthn lizmat: The patch doesn't quite make sense to me... 12:15
lizmat jnthn: this is to fix the case of "my $a of Array of Int" 12:16
the type it got for "of" was (Hash+{TypedHash}"
which clearly doesn't work as an "of" for type checking?
r: my $a of Int; say $a.of 12:17
camelia rakudo 285758: OUTPUT«No such method 'of' for invocant of type 'Any'␤ in block at /tmp/8BKUp1biTe:1␤␤»
lizmat r: my @a of Int; say @a.of
camelia rakudo 285758: OUTPUT«(Mu)␤»
lizmat I think .of is broken and should be phased out 12:18
if you need to know the type of something, you would need to use .VAR.of
moritz r: say Array
camelia rakudo 285758: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
jnthn um, what?
.VAR returns identify on non-scalars
moritz r: say Array[Int].new.of
camelia rakudo 285758: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
jnthn So Array.VAR gives Array 12:19
lizmat but a scalar can also be considered a one element array
r: my $a of Int; say $a.VAR.of
camelia rakudo 285758: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
lizmat r: my Hash[Int] $a=Hash[Int].new # huh? 12:27
camelia rakudo 285758: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$a'; expected 'Hash+{TypedHash}' but got 'Hash+{TypedHash}'␤ in block at /tmp/X5RDN1WWSX:1␤␤»
lizmat I guess this is a can of worms best left alone for a while ? 12:28
I mean, type checking is only done at one level at a time right now, should that become more? 12:29
jnthn That should already work. Odd. 12:30
lizmat just on the strings, you mean?
if that's the case, I need to revert my patch of just now
maybe we should stringify "Hash+{TypedHash}" as "Hash[Int]" in this case ? 12:31
jnthn No, not on the strings!! 12:32
We never ever ever ever compare types by stringification. 12:33
dalek kudo/nom: bc39ad2 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Create proper .VAR.of methods for Array/Hash, makes 4 TODO tests pass
timotimo jnthn: but it could be helpful for people, no?
jnthn We can make it stringify nicer, yes
timotimo or at least stringify TypedHash in that case as TypedHash[Int] if that's possible
jnthn But not for the purpose of comparison.
lizmat okok
timotimo could perhaps roles stringify all their parameters in those cases?
then we'll reach c++ levels of error reporting :D 12:34
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mathw not until the core data structures are built out of startlingly complex templates we won't :) 12:34
timotimo i can look into making a patch tomorrow
i think Any really ought to have a type parameter to define what things like .elems returns 12:35
also, we need size_t
lizmat r: my Hash[Int] $a=Hash[Array].new # huh? 12:37
camelia rakudo 285758: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$a'; expected 'Hash+{TypedHash}' but got 'Hash+{TypedHash}'␤ in block at /tmp/zrF2_piNeT:1␤␤»
lizmat r: my Hash[Int] $a=Hash[Int].new # so this should already work ?
camelia rakudo 285758: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$a'; expected 'Hash+{TypedHash}' but got 'Hash+{TypedHash}'␤ in block at /tmp/vWHfqSOQ1v:1␤␤»
moritz yes, known bug
lizmat ok, then I'll revert my patch mangling "of" 12:38
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dalek kudo/nom: 94b7b28 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Revert "Make "my $a of Array of Int" work (for typechecks at lowest level)"

the type to the lowest level.
This reverts commit 2857585a4d166896c308a8d84b0ebb6d6e826ae5.		 12:39
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timotimo i made a little class for working with sorted arrays 12:53
you can push, pop and shift, as well as push_sorted
tadzik cool
module!
timotimo yes, it will be one 12:54
i made it not for a specific use case, but for exactly that
i'll add things like finding and removing values, too
tadzik also, if you have a sorted array, why would you want push that's not push_sorted?
timotimo but i need to test if my :by support is correct 12:55
push_sorted means "don't worry, this list is already sorted"
since it takes a slurpy list you can't just supply an array.new but role { method sort() {} }
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tadzik oh, so push_sorted is for pushing the arrays 12:57
timotimo oh, yes, push and push_sorted both take *@a
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lizmat fwiw, I thnk something like that should be in core 13:00
timotimo you think? 13:01
hm, i'm not sure
tadzik I think we have a bit too fat core already 13:02
tadzik grumbles at is-prime, as usual
timotimo i think it gets messy quick; depending on your algorithm you may prefer such a thign backed by an array, or by a n,m-tree, or you may want a binary heap instead of a fully sorted list, ...
if you take the sorted list backed by an array into the core, you're opening the floodgates for "why do we have that, but not $similar-thing" 13:03
TimToady is-prime costs almost nothing, considering it just calls into libtommath
tadzik we have already opened that :(
that's true
lizmat fwiw, I feel such a sorted array could serve as a backend for Sets of a certain size 13:04
grondilu please don't remove is-prime from the core, I think it's cool to have that.
moritz we just need a better cultural acceptance for having datastructures provided by modules, not core 13:05
donaldh heh. is-prime is even there on JVM
timotimo lizmat: yes, that's often what's done for sets if i understand correctly
grondilu would prefer to have a Prime subset of Int, though.
TimToady in any case, what's in the core language vs what is preloaded is (potentially) two entirely different sets of code
timotimo that's true, i'm also looking forward to that :)
tadzik oh yes
grondilu r: subset Prime of Int where &is-prime; say 13 ~~ Prime
camelia rakudo 285758: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady we probably want to avoid preloading a number of things that the language considers part of itself on small machines 13:06
lizmat TimToady: you mean additional settings ?
TimToady no
pmurias like avoid preloading eval?
TimToady I mean the language only has to know the names, and that if the name is referenced, then you pull in the functionality
moritz stuff like sockets, for example
tadzik or Temporal
TimToady or even, when the name is actually called
lizmat a sort of load on demand proxy objects ? 13:07
Object::Realize::Later ?
metacpan.org/module/Object::Realize::Later
tadzik could we implement that as additional, precompiled settings?
TimToady even large machines might want to do things like that to speed up initial startup time 13:08
tadzik which we can pull in when necessary
TimToady tadzik: I don't think so
a setting holds the names
in a sense, the setting is the language, not the implementation of the language 13:09
tadzik right
TimToady (ignoring the bits of the language that are defined in the grammar)
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dalek ast: 7b2783d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S0 (2 files):
Unfudge / fix "of Type" related tests
 13:17
donaldh back to emulating chdir, which we think we need to do on all backends to get thread local $*CWD, 13:19
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donaldh perhaps we should make all nqp::file ops guard against relative paths 13:20
TimToady note that $*CWD is automatically thread local as long as each thread does 'temp $*CWD' first thing
since $*CWD is dynamically scoped 13:21
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donaldh and do all path composition in rakudo 13:21
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lizmat Since setting of $*CWD should check for existence of dir, I assume it should also die when the restore of the temp finds the directory has gone ? 13:23
donaldh some nqp ops need to change signature, e.g. nqp::shell needs to know $where
TimToady on machines that can have an actual process-wide cwd, one could optimize by stripping the absolute path back off right before doing something in the cwd, so that the OS doesn't have to deal with the same prefix repeatedly (assuming we can strip it faster than the OS could retraverse it) 13:24
dalek ast: 7613807 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S09-typed-arrays/arrays.t:
Some more .of -> .VAR.of I missed
 13:26
donaldh certainly easy to compare $*CWD to real cwd
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lizmat still I'm a bit worried about people chaning $*CWD in a Promise without "temp"ing it 13:28
TimToady lizmat: probably not; I can imagine scenarios where you are assuming you can back out of temporized $*CWD without again accessing the intermediate directories
lizmat *changing
dylanwh What does real cwd mean under the jvm? :-)
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TimToady dylanwh: probably only what the OS thinks it is, if JVM doesn't know how to think about it 13:29
lizmat TimToady: so it would be like any other case where the directory pointed to by $*CWD disappears
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lizmat if you use it in a file/dir access, it will fail 13:29
if not, you're safe
dylanwh Note: java libraries tend to hate you when you use native calls to change the cwd. :( 13:30
TimToady lizmat: a promise has no "inside" in that sense, it's a ref to another thread
which has its own dynamic scope
lizmat the thing is that that thread may later be used by other Promises
and would as such inherit changes to $*CWD that another promise has made
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lizmat a Promise only gets temporary use of an existing thread 13:31
TimToady promises don't have anything to do with CWD
lizmat it does not get a thread of its own
Promises are code, code can change $*CWD
TimToady and that thread has a $*CWD that the promise doesn't change
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lizmat how can you be sure that a Promise doesn''t change $*CWD ? 13:32
TimToady if a chunk of code does change cwd, it's dynamically scoped to the execution of that chunk of code 13:33
assuming proper use of temp
lizmat ah! assuming proper use of temp
TimToady which would presumably be enforced by 'chdir'
to do otherwise would be a DIHWIDT
donaldh JVM knows what the OS cwd is and from JVM's point of view it's immutable 13:34
lizmat I would be in favour of making sure you cannot push where it hurts 13:35
TimToady so we can use it as a secondary "absolute" location, more or less
lizmat there are so many ways of actions at a distance / heisenbugs with threads, even when wrapped in promises, that we should make sure that all the obvious ways of doing this, are covered 13:36
TimToady sure, as long as it's not the halting problem
lizmat if chdir would temp $*CWD, great!
donaldh chdir can do anything we like.
lizmat should direct assignment to $*CWD work ?
donaldh I suggest we remove nqp::chdir though
TimToady the whole point of dynamic variables is to make each dynamic scope behave a bit like env vars do in unix processes 13:37
we could maybe make $*CWD readonly by default, such that you may only set it with an appropriately scoped op 13:38
donaldh is it possible to make $*CWD proxy STORE to call chdir ? 13:40
lizmat I guess a bit like undefine() and assignment with Nil ?
TimToady and if it comes down to it, we can probably make a promise track the "correct" cwd when it starts
lizmat but that would seem like unnecessary overhead
brrt lol @ sleep sort
lizmat O(zzzzz) 13:41
TimToady donaldh: except there are multiple $*CWD variables, and how do you hook "going out of scope" to chdir back?
lizmat maybe chdir() should just be a frontend to assigning $*CWD 13:42
donaldh well chdir updates the actual value of a local $*CWD
touche
lizmat and have assignment temporize allways ?
donaldh ALWAYS
TimToady that sounds crazy to me
lizmat anyways, whatever :-)
donaldh crazy in what sense? 13:43
TimToady better to not try mixing the emulation with the reality
timotimo i use dynamic vars to set values further up the stack often :|
TimToady only if the dynamic var is writeable 13:44
colomon bunch of new module failures overnighjt
looks like NativeCall might be the culprit?
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colomon 97.95.33.142:3001/report 13:44
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TimToady there should probably be a simple process-wide really-chdir that simply informs the chdir emulator that it now has a different secondary root 13:45
lizmat TimToady: but that would be an optimization, no ? 13:46
donaldh so $*CWD becomes readonly, chdir is used to modify $*CWD
TimToady any more dwimmery than that is just going to result in a lot of wat
donaldh file operations compose relative paths into absolute paths using dynamic scoped $*CWD 13:47
TimToady and chdir is really just 'temp @*CWD ::= $newpath;' or some such
lizmat that's all the dwimmery I was going for
TimToady er $*CWD
@*CWD is not a concept I want to think about :) 13:48
donaldh shell operations and other spawn type stuff uses $*CWD as cwd of new process
lizmat S16:189 mentions the Array interface wrt to $*CWD
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S16.html#line_189
lizmat I'm not sure what that means or whether that is still applicable 13:49
donaldh I think that just means push and pop of path segments
lizmat ah, ok
hmmm….
donaldh in other words @*CWD is sorta ~= split('/', $*CWD)
that's the way I read it anyway 13:50
TimToady my brother-in-law interpreted it as pushd/popd though 13:51
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dalek ecs: 1b16c7b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S16-io.pod:
Slight elaboration on the Array interface
 13:51
TimToady in either case, I don't want to think about it :)
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donaldh anything other than file ops and spawn ops that we need to worry about? 13:52
lizmat unix file socket ops ?
timotimo i'm idly wondering about eliminating redundant stuff like .chars calling .Str which may be a no-op in many cases
i wonder in how many, actually.
(since our calls are apparently so expensive?) 13:53
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donaldh lizmat: yeah, I had them under my file ops banner, but better to be explicit about them 13:53
so is this a good strategy: 13:55
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donaldh change the nqp file ops to only accept absolute paths - prevent us from doing bad things 13:55
do all the magick $*CWD trickery in rakudoland
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lizmat fwiw, sounds like a plan to me 14:00
jnthn Seems reasonable to me. 14:01
donaldh git branch :)
jnthn I tend to like approaches that don't lead to immense differences between backends...
donaldh This converges the backends, right ?
jnthn Right.
That's why I like it. :)
donaldh it also sounds quite achievable :) 14:02
TimToady absolutely :)
lizmat as an optimization, the nqp ops maybe later could take the "real" cwd into account where applicable 14:03
jnthn Relatively easy to check it worked out too: just try Panda
lizmat so the OS would have tp retraverse ?
would *not* have to
TimToady does Panda only chdir when going down a tree, or does it try to chdir back on the way out? 14:04
most of the latter would probably be harmless, though useless if the dynamic scope is going to restore it anyway
I suppose it could be argued that a correct chdir emulation should ignore dynamic scoping and just set the current thread's cwd... 14:06
lizmat jnthn: where does ->type_check live?
timotimo whoops, my file system just got full ... but how?! 14:07
TimToady but I think temp on chdir will ultimately lead to cleaner programs that don't have to un-chdir all over the place
moritz TimToady: panda tries to chdir back
timotimo i had 10 gb free last time i looked
now down to 300 mb?!? :(
jnthn lizmat: sixmodelobject.c
moritz TimToady: it uses LEAVE chdir $old-dir
timotimo ah
moritz which isn't too bad :-)
timotimo hahahaha, that's so dumb :D 14:08
TimToady perhaps we shouldn't name it chdir if it's going to have auto-un-unchdir semantics
tempdir or some such
timotimo i used ulimit to limit my test runs to a few seconds of cpu time, so that they would be interrupted and restarted-after-source-changed automatically ... but my system created a coredump each time :D
lizmat perhaps chdir() is a bad name anyway, because of its history
and unix centricity 14:09
just assigning $*CWD feels better to me in a Perl 6 setting
TimToady well, chdir would just set the current $*CWD if we left it in, and tempdir (or whatever we name it) would do the 'temp $*CWD =' trick
moritz lizmat: the problem is that UNIX current directory really is process-wide 14:10
TimToady visitdir, downdir, ...
moritz lizmat: and $*CWD isn't
lizmat moritz: exactly my point
donaldh moritz: the JVM just happily sits in one dir with an immutable cwd
TimToady we'd merely be treating the actual dynamic scope as the "process"
donaldh which is indeed process wide
TimToady chdir would still be emulating 14:11
so not process wide
don't confuse the emulation chdir with the really-chdir
donaldh what do we want cwd to do? display the emulated $*CWD or the really OS cwd ?
moritz I'm a bit concerned about calling foreign functions 14:12
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moritz those would lose the pretense of our emulated chdir 14:12
donaldh moritz: you mean interop?
moritz donaldh: yes
TimToady if you know that one cares, you'd have to really-chdir before you call it
if you don't know that it cares, it probably doesn't :) 14:13
FROGGS .oO( ... except when it does )
tadzik so, how would nqp::shell() work with emulated chdir?
TimToady you might have to wrap in a really-tempdir
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TimToady which would do the really-chdir and LEAVE really-chdir 14:14
donaldh tadzik: that's easy, use $*CWD as the directory parameter to the ProcessBuilder
moritz tadzik: nqp::shell would have a $working-directory parameter
TimToady that works too
tadzik oh, alright
TimToady was thinking more about the foreign functions you have no control over
what moritz++ was pointing out
well, maybe really-chdir is named PROCESS::chdir 14:15
that makes it clearer, I think
timotimo yeah, i'd understand when i saw it for the first time
TimToady so PROCESS::tempdir could do the dynamic save/restore, maybe--except there's a problem 14:16
er tempcwd
lizmat jnthn: sixmoduleobject.c's typecheck handling is way over my head right now, so reverting that to a later, possibly post-Frankfurt time
TimToady it really needs to be macroish if it's going to declare a temp $*CWD 14:17
donaldh fwiw, any backdoor to the real chdir just exposes the thread safety issue again.
jnthn lizmat: oh...
lizmat: yeah, that isn't where it'd need changing anyway
lizmat ah?
jnthn lizmat: That code is just looking through the type check cache then delegating to the meta-object.
lizmat: The fixes would be in src/Perl6/Metamodel/ 14:18
lizmat r: my Hash[Int] $a; say $a.VAR.of === Hash[Int] # this works, so under the hood it seems ok
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady donaldh: sure, but the alternatives are worse--running in the wrong directory, and at least PROCESS::chdir can talk to the emulator
*running foreign functions
lizmat jnthn: MROBasedTypeChecking.nqp ? 14:19
jnthn lizmat: Probably not... 14:20
Perhaps something in CurriedRoleHOW
moritz justy.me/justy/2013/8/18/journey-to...st-5-hours # for the RPG lovers
TimToady of course, if a foreign function allows absolute pathnames, we can probably more safely just pass only absolute names to such a function, and then there's no reace
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TimToady *race 14:20
timotimo r: say (by => (*.key))
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«"by" => WhateverCode.new()␤»
timotimo r: say :by(*.key)
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«␤» 14:21
timotimo r: say (:by(*.key))
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«"by" => WhateverCode.new()␤»
timotimo hm.
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lizmat the second one is just passing named parameters to "say" 14:21
timotimo yes, i know
lizmat which, as it's implemented as a method, doesn't complain 14:22
TimToady but yeah, going outside the emulation in two different threads can expose the race condition, if you PROCESS::chdir and pass relative paths
timotimo i thought my code was wrong because the pair constructor was being turned into a part of the whatever code
but that is not the case
r: class Array::Sorted { has $!by = &infix:<cmp>; has $!use-by-vals = ($!by.?count // 2) == 1; method foo() { say $!use-by-vals; say $!by } }; Array.Sorted.new(:by(*.key)).foo
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«No such method 'Sorted' for invocant of type 'Array'␤ in block at /tmp/7PELefz7Dq:1␤␤»
timotimo r: class Array::Sorted { has $!by = &infix:<cmp>; has $!use-by-vals = ($!by.?count // 2) == 1; method foo() { say $!use-by-vals; say $!by } }; Array::Sorted.new(:by(*.key)).foo
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«False␤sub+{precedence} infix:<cmp>(, ) { ... }␤»
TimToady suspects thread-safe libraries are moving in the direction of not supporting relative paths without a 'current dir' parameter 14:23
timotimo i don't understand why that is.
TimToady: they would probably be well advised to do so
moritz timotimo: private attributes aren't initialized by .new
timotimo oh?
i see!
moritz because they are private!
timotimo yes, of course m)
thanks for the extra eyes
and, i suppose, extra brain :)
TimToady
.oO(private eyes?)
 14:24
lizmat
.oO( very uNSAfe )
 14:26
donaldh TimToady: I read the same somewhere, can't find the ref. 14:27
timotimo wonders why @!by-vals aren't being set on the first access and then sees the code: "my @by-vals = ..." 14:29
donaldh how do I create a thread local ?
timotimo thinks: probably NYI 14:30
unless you use the java classes for it
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donaldh is wondering what first incremental steps to take 14:31
jnthn 0) Make an appropriate beaverage 14:32
*beverage
:)
donaldh 1. change the nqp ops and break lots of stuff.
timotimo tee hee, beaver-age
a new dreamworks film maybe?
donaldh was about to run outside and build a dam in a river
donaldh makes coffee instead. 14:33
2. Use the global $*CWD and worry about threads later 14:34
timotimo the thread local $*CWD will probably override the global $*CWD 14:35
huh. 14:36
oh! by isn't a named parameter
donaldh timotimo: yep 3. implement thread locals
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timotimo i mean, it will do that just by itself 14:37
rather than having to say "give me the thread local version of $*CWD" 14:38
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dalek ecs: 9607528 | larry++ | S32-setting-library/IO.pod:
add visitdir and PROCESS::chdir, retarget chdir
 14:39
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lizmat jnthn: ParametricRoleHOW.nqp, line 125 ? 14:45
am I getting warmer ?
jnthn lizmat: Maybe, but I'm not sure... 14:46
lizmat I was suspecting a missing nqp::decont in line 126 14:47
but alas
jnthn lizmat: I'm thinking the problem is mostly likely some kind of mis-copying to the punned class...
r: say nqp::istype Hash[Int], Hash[Int]
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«0␤»
jnthn um.
lizmat aha
jnthn Well, that's a golf...
oh...
We don't actually cache the role parameterizations yet... 14:48
...'cus it made all kinds of fun with the BS...
That's a very fiddly problem, I'm afraid...
lizmat BS?
jnthn bounded serialization
lizmat ok, then I'll leave it for now
arnsholt Oh, is this the same thing that makes CArray[int8] !~~ CArray[int8]?
jnthn (Yes, it's on the course. :))
Yeah.
I did do some of the infrastructural stuff to try and deal with this but didn't quite get there with actually fixing it yet. 14:49
lizmat okidoki, the only reason I investigated was because you thought it worked
jnthn Yeah...now I suddenly realize why it doesn't :(
timotimo i'm annoyed by my Sorted::Array class
the binary search logic for inserting elements is not correct, it switches elements around sometimes :(
lizmat going back to sets and bags
timotimo: feels like an off-by-one error 14:50
timotimo yes, it always is, isn't it?
arnsholt Yeah, binary search can be a bit fiddly
timotimo it only happens in my :by(-*) case
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timotimo tadzik: if you'd like to fix up my wrongs, you can have my existing pre-sorted array code 15:04
it's wrong in strange ways :|
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timotimo i especially don't understand why the output is so strange while running, but the test claims it's correct 15:07
lizmat once your sorted list is no longer sorted, corruption grows very quickly
tadzik timotimo: I may look at it later today if you push it somewhere, but don't hold your breath :) 15:08
jaffa4 hi all 15:09
can you tell me how what is the syntax of goto?
TimToady std: JAIL: goto JAIL; goto "LATER"; LATER: 42; 15:12
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
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TimToady std: goto LATER; LATER: 42; 15:12
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Illegally post-declared type:␤ 'LATER' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 41m␤»
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jaffa4 I think goto is defined in std 15:14
I could not find goto here github.com/perl6/std/blob/master/STD_P5.pm6
goto is NOT defined in STD
FROGGS TimToady: the label must be known at compile time?
timotimo tadzik: t.h8.lv/list-sorted.tar.bz2 15:15
jnthn Why hate .lv? :P 15:16
timotimo it has a clever-ish display of what it's doing, except it's apparently b0rked for some cases
TimToady FROGGS: in p6, yes
timotimo it's not "hate love", it's hate and love. like a balance
TimToady jaffa4: yes, goto can just parse as a function in P6, so it's just in CORE.setting 15:18
jnthn oh, I was thinking latvia, not love :P
TimToady the course of true latvia never did run smooth... 15:19
timotimo ah 15:20
i think i need to give my wrist a bit of rest now :|
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donaldh haha 15:22
donaldh just walked into the nqp bootstrap trap
daxim it's a grep!
diakopter the circularity saw is an invisible band saw, not a table saw 15:23
jaffa4 What is CORE.setting?
TimToady bootstrapping: get a grep on yourself!
jnthn
.oO( I never saw that one coming... )
daxim diakopter, why didn't you advertise the grant when you were on the podium?
TimToady because diakopter++ is nice 15:24
diakopter sometimes
donaldh okay, so it's easy when creating new nqp ops. rebootstrap before using new op. 15:25
but wholesale changing the signature of many ops to include ThreadContext. not so easy.
jnthn donaldh: Well, Java supports overloading, so you can leave the old ones there until post-rebootstrap :) 15:26
donaldh or somewhat nastily, make the tc a varargs parameter (temporarily) 15:27
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lizmat r: say Hash[Int].WHAT # jnthn: is there a reason why this shouldn't just return (Hash[Int]) ? 15:32
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«(Hash+{TypedHash})␤»
TimToady cringes every time it's implied that an ordinary Hash isn't typed, when it's really typed "Hash[Str()]" 15:33
jnthn lizmat: No, just needs doing 15:34
donaldh hmmm. Maybe making nqp guard against relative paths is a really-bad-idea-TM
lizmat r: say Hash.WHAT # so this should say (Hash[Str()] ?
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«(Hash)␤»
moritz TimToady: well, we don't have coercion types yet, so the default hash *is* "less" typed than an explicitly typed hash 15:35
TimToady that's a temporary expedient, I hope
donaldh The impact on NQP itself is significant
jnthn r: my $t := Hash[Int]; say $t; $t.HOW.set_name($t, 'Hash[Int]'); say $t;
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«(Hash+{TypedHash})␤(Hash[Int])␤»
lizmat jnthn: so I would change new_name in MetaModel/Mixins.nqp, line 13 to show the alternate format ?
TimToady note that if Hash's arg defaults to Str(), we can leave it out
jnthn lizmat: No, I don't thing you should change it in general... 15:36
dalek : f806f4b | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Perl5/World.nqp:
Any is the default
: dc4aea6 | (Tobias Leich)++ | STATUS.md:
status update after local regex changes
jnthn lizmat: But you can do the above fiddle in PARAMETERIZE_TYPE in Hash.pm
lizmat ah, ok, gotcha
jnthn heh
r: class A { }; A.^set_name('monkey'); say A 15:37
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«(monkey)␤»
jnthn And that's why we never compare types by string :P
lizmat hehe :-)
15:37 kaleem left
jnthn (And also why we have a MOP :D) 15:37
(No, I'm *not* giving a prize for the best abuse of this feature...)
FROGGS meh :/
moritz r: Str.^set_name('Int'); sub f(Str) { }; f Int 15:38
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'f' will never work with argument types (Int) (lines 1, 1)␤ Expected: :(Str )␤»
jnthn moritz: BEGIN :)
(you hit the compile-time type checker...)
moritz jnthn: oh, right
r: BEGIN Str.^set_name('Int'); sub f(Str) { }; f Int
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'f' will never work with argument types (Int) (lines 1, 1)␤ Expected: :(Int )␤»
moritz :-)
jnthn *groan* :) 15:39
TimToady donaldh: note (if you didn't already) that I specced visitdir etc an hour ago 15:40
moritz r: BEGIN Str.^set_name('Int'); BEGIN Int.^set_name('Str'); sub f(Str) { }; f Int
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'f' will never work with argument types (Str) (lines 1, 1)␤ Expected: :(Int )␤»
donaldh TimToady: yes, I saw it thanks.
grondilu changing a name of a core class should not be that easy.
(imho) 15:41
r: BEGIN Str.^set_name('Int'); BEGIN Int.^set_name('Str'); say Int, Str
masak r: BEGIN Str.^set_name('a banana and a spaceship'); sub f(Str) { }; f Int
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«(Str)(Int)␤»
rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'f' will never work with argument types (Int) (lines 1, 1)␤ Expected: :(a banana and a spaceship )␤»
jnthn grondilu: That mostly just devolves to saying "I want a pragma requird before I can do any meta-programming" 15:42
15:42 rindolf left
TimToady .set_name_really_I'm_not_a_dangerous_person_no_I'm_not 15:42
grondilu well, we have MONKEY_TYPING, don't we? 15:43
jnthn Yeah, but requiring that for whenever you want to use .^ or .HOW feels a bit...icky.
TimToady read vs write
15:45 donaldh left
moritz but distinguishing the two isn't easy, is it? 15:47
jnthn No, and constructing a new class at runtime and setting its name is kinda legit too...
If anything we want to protected the composed 15:48
masak if you ask me, using .^ or .HOW should be considered a kind of MONKEY_TYPING in itself.
i.e. it's almost inherently mucking around with machinery.
and trying to make it "safe" is a fool's errand.
grondilu maybe a 'use METAMODEL'? 15:49
15:50 berekuk left
grondilu (because use MONKEY_TYPING sounds offensive if you ask me) 15:50
TimToady it's supposed to :)
grondilu :) oh yeah, to discourage the user to use it. Kind of smart.
TimToady the idea is really from Ada, where you had to say things like 'with UNCHECKED_TYPE_CONVERSION' so that the boss could tell if you were cheating by looking at the front of your program :) 15:51
15:51 berekuk joined
grondilu that's fun. We should make a contest for best names like that, such as 'use TOTALLY_UNSAFE_FEATURES' 15:53
moritz masak: fwiw I use .^name a lot
15:53 sftp_ is now known as sftp
TimToady use LIKE_TOTALLY_UNSAFE_FEATURES_AND_STUFF 15:53
15:54 berekuk left
TimToady just disallow the method names with underscores :) 15:54
lizmat sometimes I wonder whether we should have another word than "use" for lexical pragma type of things 15:55
TimToady do you have a "use" case?
lizmat I'm just thinking about Perlito, which had to special case "use strict" and friends even though it couldn't load any modules 15:56
it feels to me a bit like "eval" being double used in Perl5
and not in Perl 6 15:57
TimToady those who live by the subset, die by the subset...
masak moritz: let's just say it's more of a guideline than a rule. that said, even .^name, innocent as it is, *is* an introspection tool and as such a kind of magic.
15:57 ssutch joined
TimToady use CODE_SMELL; 15:57
FROGGS hehe
grondilu well, if you want to discourage introspection, what about 'use instrospection;'? 15:58
TimToady esp if misspelled :)
lizmat hint lax; # auto-define undefined variables lexically 16:00
FROGGS hmm
TimToady it's not a hint if it's mandatory
lizmat hint MONKEY_TYPING
FROGGS I'd prefere 'want lax;'
because that is a bit like 'use' 16:01
masak I'm sorry, what problem are we solving here?
TimToady I see no reason to multiply entities
FROGGS OURS!
masak I thought unifying pragmas and modules was a feature.
what TimToady said.
TimToady seems to have worked out pretty well for P5...
lizmat except for string eval
masak you could even argue that pragmas are a kind of module, by design. 16:02
TimToady false analogy
jnthn The pragmas that are magical to the compiler are just the ones we didn't yet learn how to write as modules.
Notice how "use lib" is actually a real module in Rakudo.
TimToady if anything, they're more unified in P6 because everything is lexially scoped now 16:03
*xic
and 'use' is only going to gain more of the power of macros over time 16:05
plus there are lots of modules that are a little bit pragmatical, but also normal modules; enforcing a false dichotomy is kinda silly 16:06
lizmat but that blurs the distinction between a compilation unit and a class / module / package again :-(
jnthn How so? 16:07
TimToady a compilation unit, even an ordinary one, changes the language of the user, if you import any functions at all
there really is not distinction
*no
lizmat because "use", for better or worse, is not about a class / module / package, but about a compilation unit that may contain zero or more class / module / packages
TimToady to the extent there is one, we already distinguish 'need' for a module that explicitly doesn't change the language 16:08
perigrin thought the discussion in #moose about "Why is a role not a class" got too metaphysical ...
TimToady lizmat: what you point out is that even a 'needed' module can change your language to the extent your language is defined in World 16:09
masak perigrin: a discussion about MOPs getting too metaphysical? well I never!
lizmat indeed 16:10
perigrin masak: you shoudl soemtime, it's clensing.
TimToady so every module changes your language; where's the distinction?
some modules poke stuff into GLOBAL, some poke stuff into your lexical scope, some might even return a textual macro to run immediately to introduce implicit declarations 16:11
lizmat good point, I guess jnthn already said it "The pragmas that are magical to the compiler are just the ones we didn't yet learn how to write as modules."
TimToady and for sure, there will be modules that want to do combinations of those things 16:12
jnthn++ :)
PerlJam good $localtime all. 16:13
TimToady is that threadsafe?
FROGGS well, one pragma will never be a module
( use v6.1.3 ) 16:14
TimToady so just load in v6.1.3.pm and see what happens :) 16:15
lizmat I think that falls under the "didn't learn to write as a module yet) ;-)
TimToady does 'use v5' load in a module yet?
FROGGS well, on could create All The Modules for it...
one*
TimToady could imagine use v6.1.3 looking for v6.1.3, then v6.1, then v6, and passing the remaining version bits as a parameter 16:16
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TimToady don't really have a "use" case for it though :) 16:17
grondilu r: use v6.1.3; say "what is this?"
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«what is this?␤»
grondilu thought Perl 6 was still 6.0.0
TimToady it's not even that yet
masak um. 16:18
TimToady so that's still "magical", as in no-op
masak I can see us accepting 'use v6';
but I really think we should reject anything above that.
grondilu shouldn't it die with "this is only 6.0.0"?
masak right.
it not doing that is bad to some non-zero degree.
it breaks future compat.
or something.
TimToady but this isn't 6.0.0+, it's 6.0.0- 16:19
.oO(use future v6.0.0)
grondilu r: use v6.0.0-;
camelia rakudo 94b7b2: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find v6 in any of: /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/5.5.0-devel/languages/perl6/site/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/5.5.0-devel/languages/perl6/vendor/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/5.5.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/…
TimToady curious
grondilu this 0[+-] notation is not reckognized anyway
PerlJam So ... are there bug tickets for turning the compiler-special pragmas into modules? :) 16:20
TimToady std: use v6.0.0+;
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
TimToady std: use v6.0.0-;
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/CKy9jkilsW line 1:␤------> use v6.0.0⏏-;␤ expecting any of:␤ feed_separator␤ vnum␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 41m␤»
TimToady grondilu: the + is official
masak .oO( Larry gets to pull unofficial syntax out of his colon ) 16:21
TimToady is a colonialist
lizmat jnthn: wrt to PARAMETERIZE_TYPE, seems that +TypedHash always gets added anyway :-( 16:22
or is that what you meant? $ perl6 -e 'my Int %a; say %a.WHAT'
(Hash[Int]+{TypedHash})
TimToady you'd have to set it after the mixin/composition
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lizmat I tried that 16:22
TimToady maybe we need a POSTCOMPOSE phaser 16:23
lizmat I even tried to save the value of "self but TypedHash[$t.WHAT];"
masak don't we already have a COMPOSE phaser?
TimToady or maybe COMPOSE should be defined to run after
masak I thought it already was... 16:24
lizmat and return that
but then the name setting disappears
masak COMPOSE and POSTCOMPOSE don't make a nice pair.
jnthn lizmat: Can I see the patch?
TimToady lizmat: how were you deferring the name setting till after composition?
lizmat recreating patch 16:25
TimToady is assuming that composition is what adds the +{}
lizmat gist.github.com/lizmat/6271022 16:26
I guess s/WHAT.perl/^name/ 16:27
masak and the POST in POSTCOMPOSE sounds like it has to do with DbC.
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TimToady masak: wasn't serious about the name; COMPOSE should run after anyway 16:28
lizmat are COMPOSE phasers already run ?
TimToady still NYI afaik 16:29
lizmat indeed, as is "will compose" trait on vars 16:30
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masak TimToady: yes, still NYI. and yes, I think it should run after, unless someone has a use case for it running before. 16:32
16:34 benabik left
TimToady a BEGIN runs before alread 16:35
*dy
as do traits 16:36
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lizmat I think I got it 16:43
$ perl6 -e 'my Int %a; say %a.WHAT'
(Hash[Int])
$ perl6 -e 'my Int %a{Str}; say %a.WHAT' 16:44
(Hash[Int,Str])
running spectest now 16:46
jnthn woo
lizmat updated gist also 16:47
jnthn Sorry, got distracted and you fixed it already :)
lizmat Alas, it doesn't handle this case yet: $ perl6 -e 'my %a{Str} of Int; say %a.WHAT'
(Hash[Any,Str])
nor this: $ perl6 -e 'my %a of Int; say %a.WHAT'
(Hash)
jnthn Suspect something is wrong in the of handler 16:48
lizmat well, nlt necessarily wrong, but NYI
jnthn Does it call .HOW.parameterize somewhere if it's a Hash or Array?
aye
lizmat nope, it doesn't
16:48 iSlug joined
jnthn ok, that'll be why :) 16:48
lizmat it just sets the containerdescriptor 16:49
jnthn yeah...that's not enough
lizmat ok, will look at that after the spectest
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jnthn lizmat: I mighta written $t.WHAT.perl as $t.^name 16:51
lizmat yes, I mentioned that just now already :-): [18:27:29] <lizmat> I guess s/WHAT.perl/^name/ 16:52
jnthn ah :)
dalek p: 210cd15 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/QRegex/P5Regex/ (2 files):
enable non-capturing groups and named captures
jnthn ooh!
FROGGS++ 16:53
FROGGS :o)
lizmat jnthn: not clear which named parameter to pass 16:54
to parameterize, passes it on to "new_type"
jnthn Hm, I thougth you passed positionals... :) 16:55
dalek kudo/nom: da63d08 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
allow to run code in P5 regexes
 16:56
jnthn yeah...
$var.var.^parameterize($the_of_type) # or so
lizmat spectest ok, now doing same for Array 16:57
jnthn: okidoki
17:00 dakkar left 17:01 SamuraiJack__ joined
jnthn shop & 17:03
17:04 fhelmberger left 17:21 EvanTeitelman left
lizmat alas, using ^name is a problem 17:24
$ perl6 --ll-exception -e 'class Z { has Z @a }'
Method 'dispatch:<.^>' not found for invocant of class 'Z'
using WHAT.perl is not a solution either:
$ perl6 --ll-exception -e 'class Z { has Z @a }'
Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'Z'
problem golfed from the only spectest failure: t/spec/S12-attributes/recursive.t 17:25
jnthn: suggestions ?
jnthn Write it out as .HOW.name(...) maybe 17:26
lizmat hmmm
ack
of course, duh
jnthn That usually fixes such things
Though I'd like to make the .^ work at some point
lizmat feels hard to fix of the class is not inheriting from enything 17:28
*if
*anything
17:28 donaldh joined
dalek : de1632a | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (3 files):
run code in regexes
 17:29
17:32 donaldh left 17:36 spider-mario joined 17:37 pernatiy left 17:39 pernatiy joined 17:48 donaldh joined 17:52 donaldh left
ruoso kill firefox 18:00
TimToady with fire, or with fox?
jnthn: can you imagine a scenario in which the CREATE for an object is not directly controlled by the repr and any associated traits? 18:02
TimToady thinks we should usually just inline that with the build plan
and if we want a custom CREATE, maybe that should be passed as a trait on the class 18:04
or with a repr that somehow knows it can have a polymorphic CREATE
keeping it completely dynamic does not seem to buy us much 18:05
18:06 rindolf left
dalek kudo/nom: 13f2f97 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Make (Array|Hash).WHAT return something sensible for specifically typed case
 18:06
18:07 flussence_ is now known as flussence
dalek ast: 8b7c044 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S12-attributes/recursive.t:
Add some more tests for recursively typed attributes
 18:07
masak r: say "{Date.new} will be the best Christmas ever for Perl 6!" 18:08
camelia rakudo da63d0: OUTPUT«2013-12-24 will be the best Christmas ever for Perl 6!␤»
FROGGS masak++ # Ohh yes :o) 18:10
lizmat r: say Date.new 18:11
camelia rakudo da63d0: OUTPUT«2013-12-24␤»
masak lizmat: welcome to the Perl 6 community ;) 18:12
lizmat what ?
masak we haz Easter eggs :P
lizmat: (it's to discourage people from doing Date.new)
(in a very mild way)
lizmat I assume on 2013-12-25, it will show 2014.12.24 ?
masak aye.
it's funny :>
jaffa4 i get this install-jvm\bin\nqp is not executable; use --with-nqp or use --gen-nqp at ConfigureJVM.pl line 60.? 18:13
FROGGS hmmm, I was thinking the right path would be instal\bin\nqp
install*
grondilu why not make Date.new fail with no arguments instead of returning next Xmas? 18:14
masak grondilu: because that wouldn't be as fun. 18:15
grondilu oh, ok.
masak the behavior of Date.new is not spec'd, and thus we're in demons-out-of-nose land anyway.
DateTime.new has it the boring way. 18:16
lizmat fail if $*VERSION == 6.0.0 ?
masak r: DateTime.new
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«Must provide arguments to DateTime.new()␤current instr.: 'throw' pc 379051 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:160961) (src/gen/CORE.setting:10072)␤called from Sub 'sink' pc 412948 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:173645) (src/gen/CORE.setting:11379)␤called from Sub 'MAIN' pc 401 (…
FROGGS hmmm, we could make a Python module that connects to their irc channel and says 'lol'
masak lizmat: "when Perl 6 is released, every day will be like Christmas" -- so I guess then it should return Date.today :)
FROGGS: lol 18:17
FROGGS (or we make it a slang just to be awesome)
18:18 SamuraiJack__ left
FROGGS meh, waiting for spectests is boring 18:19
jaffa4 FROGGS: that was a bug 18:22
lizmat FROGGS: please remind me what it would take to make v5 a proper slang ? 18:24
jaffa4 who is making perl 5 output? 18:25
18:26 berekuk left
masak jaffa4: what do you mean? please rephrase. 18:26
jaffa4 i get this install-jvm\bin\nqp is not executable; use --with-nqp or use --gen-nqp at ConfigureJVM.pl line 60.? 18:27
FROGGS lizmat: we need some sort of slang class, that has a grammar, actions, a module loader, and additional stuff (like impliit module loading when switching to that grammar)
18:27 donaldh joined
FROGGS and especially for v5 I'd need to fix the module loader, so I dont have to misuse Perl6's anymore 18:27
lizmat: that's all 18:28
18:28 berekuk joined
lizmat makes mental note 18:28
18:29 matt____ joined
matt____ hi 18:29
jaffa4 masak: ok?
FROGGS lizmat: there are branches in nqp and rakudo alled 'from_nqp' that let you use nqp modules like QAST, which would help to write a slang in perl6 directly, rather than in nqp/perl6 mix
lizmat: but there are two issues, before these can be merged
18:29 matt____ left
FROGGS *which need to be fixed 18:30
jaffa4: re-pasting a sentence is not exactly what "rephrase" means 18:31
jaffa4: you said something about perl 5, please ask that again in another way
jaffa4 masak: I ran the command perl configureJVM.pl to compile the JVM compiler and I got an error
masak: the error was stall-jvm\bin\nqp is not executable; use --with-nqp or use --gen-nqp at ConfigureJVM.pl line 60.? 18:32
masak jaffa4: I see.
jaffa4: I have no idea how to help you with that; sorry.
FROGGS jaffa4: does install-jvm\bin\nqp exist?
lizmat jaffa4: it was a perl5 error because the .pl file is a Perl 5 file
FROGGS ahh
jaffa4 masak: i I fixed it
FROGGS jaffa4: so, you are going to provide a patch? 18:33
lizmat FROGGS: did you list the two issues already ?
Mouq lizmat: Was whatever was up with 144a3f8 fixed?
FROGGS that is what I call restless: github.com/sartak
lizmat: no :o) 18:34
lizmat Mouq: completely and utterly, with a lot of help from jnthn++
Mouq lizmat++ jnthn++
FROGGS lizmat: 1) in the nqp code, it accepts a perl6 hash, where the perl6 code in rakudo should emit it instead
arnsholt FROGGS: And I guess one layer down from grammar/actions/loader is the need for a specced AST API for the action methods of the slang?
jaffa4 FROGGS: I pulled a request, can you see it?
FROGGS lizmat: 2) jvm's stage0 needs an update to support load_module's new signature 18:35
arnsholt: no, for now one could use QAST
jaffa4: yes
jaffa4: is there an executable flag on windows? 18:37
jaffa4 no
18:37 ajr joined, ajr is now known as ajr_, pernatiy left
lizmat registry I guess ? 18:37
by extension ?
FROGGS jaffa4: but -x checks for that flag, right?
jaffa4 i do not know 18:38
I did not write Perl
lizmat pretty sure Perl 5 on Windows does whatever is necessary to make -x work
jaffa4 it probably checks extension
and file existance
jnthn TimToady: At the moment, .CREATE would just do nqp::create. It's nice when we know what we are creating in so far as it can help with generating better code.
FROGGS well, checking for existence should be better IMO 18:39
TimToady .mvm is a "MAGIX PhotoStory Slideshow"
oops, ww
jnthn TimToady: Given the build plan isn't code-generated but rather interpreted, though, at the moment I guess it'd always be virtual...
arnsholt FROGGS: True dat. That risks QAST becoming the de facto API though, and I think TimToady/jnthn have said they'd rather not want QAST's API as the standard 18:40
TimToady whatever api works is likely to become the defacto standard 18:41
FROGGS arnsholt: true: but how long do you guess would it take to have something better instead?
arnsholt Good question
FROGGS I dont want to write an AST class hierarchy and map it to QAST changes... (but I dont want to break other's modules either)
TimToady there needs to be a use case for having more than one AST, I suppose 18:42
timotimo it would be nice if one could get far by just using macros ...
TimToady we'd need to decide *why* QAST is unsuitable
timotimo but that's not realistic, is it?
TimToady maybe we should start out writing qacros instead
timotimo that name is not final, i take it? 18:43
FROGGS qo qroblem
timotimo nacros would be better
FROGGS nachos?
timotimo past -> qast, macros -> nacros
lizmat .me just realizes it was exactly 1 year ago she did her first commits to nqp 18:44
TimToady if it's before real macros, it should jacros or kakros or lacros
well, I imagine the real answer is that we should type macro parameters with what kind of AST we think they are supposed to be 18:45
timotimo lizmat: how do you propose we celebrate?
lizmat with the appropriate amount of $beer ? 18:46
FROGGS TimToady: kakros doesnt work well in germany
timotimo no, it works *especially* well
FROGGS lizmat: we can celebrate in three weeks or so :o) 18:47
lizmat sounds like a plan :-) 18:48
jnthn will have a beer today anyway :)
timotimo hm, what's the date again for frankfurt? 18:50
ah there
directly after my math exam
two days to recover, though
18:51 aindilis left
masak today's autopun: "If you already know what recursion is, just remember the answer. Otherwise, find someone who is standing closer to Douglas Hofstadter than you are; then ask him or her what recursion is." 18:51
jaffa4 FROGGS: I test -x on Perl, it seems to work ok 18:52
masak I love the fact that it uses Douglas Hofstadter as a base case :)
TimToady yes, but that always takes longer than you expect
masak though the algorithm may actually fail, if the next person to carry out the instruction is unwilling or unable.
also, crossing oceans is problematic. 18:53
or at least cumbersome.
jnthn And you have to know where Douglas Hofstadter is...
TimToady a ship with a sufficient number of passengers will solve that
masak jnthn: I think I can make a decent estimate.
18:53 EvanTeitelman joined
masak EvanTeitelman: salutations. 18:54
TimToady wonders whether Douglas Hofstadter is standing closer to him than I am...
the whole thing breaks down if Douglas Hofstadter isn't standing, and you pick the wrong path to him 18:55
TimToady assumes there exists at least one person who knows Douglas Hofstadter who doesn't know what recursion is...
Tag on Douglas Hofstadter: If you don't know what recursion is, please stay away from me, or you will soon learn what a failed recursion is. 18:56
19:00 aindilis joined
lizmat jaffa4: that PR seems very Windows centric 19:06
jaffa4 jaffa4: PR? what is PR? 19:07
lizmat 19:08
lizmat Pull Request
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/194
jaffa4 lizmat: so? before that Perl program was written in a very unix-centric way. 19:09
lizmat jnthn: I tried with parameterize in variable trait "of", but no success
$what.HOW.set_name($what, "{$what.HOW.name($what)}[{nqp::decont($of).HOW.naa
me(nqp::decont($of))}]");
jnthn lizmat: It's just adding a check for the name that the runner is installed on under Windows also 19:10
19:10 abnorman left
lizmat well, if you're ok with it, I'll merge :-) 19:10
jnthn maybe some whitespace around the infix . 19:11
but yeah, it's fine :)
lizmat $what.HOW.set_name($what, "{$what.HOW.name($what)}[{nqp::decont($of).HOW.name(nqp::decont($of))}]");
jnthn You don't need nqp::decont of something you do .HOW on as it automatically deconts, fwiw :)
dalek kudo/nom: 366f5d7 | (Marton Papp)++ | ConfigureJVM.pl:
D:\src\rakudo>perl ConfigureJVM.pl

fixed		 19:12
kudo/nom: 8f64f1e | lizmat++ | ConfigureJVM.pl:
Merge pull request #194 from jaffa4/nom

D:\src\rakudo>perl ConfigureJVM.pl
lizmat r: class H is Hash {}; my $h=H[Int].new; say $h.WHAT # guess I need to fix some more :-) 19:20
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«(Hash[Int])␤»
jnthn d'oh :) 19:21
19:25 abnorman joined
TimToady words.steveklabnik.com/beware-subcl...re-classes 19:25
19:25 spider-mario left 19:28 spider-mario joined
labster r: my $x = Any; $x &&= True ||= False; say $x; 19:29
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
labster r: my $x = Any; ($x &&= True) ||= False; say $x; 19:30
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«False␤»
labster isn't and supposed to bind tighter than or?
FROGGS maybe it gets the prec from assignment op? 19:31
TimToady yes, it does
S03:4018 or so 19:32
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S03.html#line_4018
lizmat r: my $x = Any; $x &&= (True ||= False); say $x;
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
TimToady erm... 19:33
TimToady would like it if that were recognizably not an lvalue at compile time, somehow...
FROGGS well, any is falsish
TimToady r: True = False; 19:34
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤ in block at /tmp/x9byaBqi9w:1␤␤»
TimToady r: True ||= False;
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: ( no output )
masak n: True ||= False
FROGGS r: 1 ||= 2
camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤ at /tmp/_q4UJi6gae line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4579 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4580 (module-CORE @ 576) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/li…
rakudo 13f2f9: ( no output )
masak submits rakudobug
FROGGS r: say( 1 &&= 2 ) 19:35
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤ in sub METAOP_TEST_ASSIGN:<&&> at src/gen/CORE.setting:15325␤ in block at /tmp/4wHn30sNJm:1␤␤»
FROGGS r: say( 1 ||= 2 ) # noop
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«1␤»
lizmat but but, there is no assignment taking place
FROGGS correct
masak point.
still looks very wrong :)
lizmat you could argue the optimizer should take out ||= False
as it will never fire
19:35 itz_ joined
masak I hadn't considered that the short-circuiting wins... 19:36
lizmat *or* spill out a warning / error that the user is doing something s/he probably didn''t mean ?
masak .oO( it would assign if only True were falsy )
FROGGS using X::Insulting? :P
masak r: (True but False) ||= False
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤ in sub METAOP_TEST_ASSIGN:<||> at src/gen/CORE.setting:15324␤ in block at /tmp/gEpO9iOTTn:1␤␤»
masak there!
FROGGS hehe, and now change its ^name *g* 19:37
Perl 6 is funny
masak -Ofunny 19:38
TimToady and you wonder why Wile E. Coyote doesn't have a good relationship with ACME?
FROGGS has not seen that lately :o) 19:39
jaffa4 I am trying to understand something , anything that goes to the core, Is callable in Perl6 , right>
TimToady that doesn't make a lot of sense; True is in the core, and is not callable 19:40
Mouq r: False &&= True
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: ( no output )
jaffa4 ok subs in the core?
FROGGS jaffa4: if you put a sub in "core", yes
TimToady more to the point, if you put it into the setting; our base setting just happens to be named CORE :) 19:41
jaffa4 Where should goto go ?
donaldh p: { temp $*CWD = ''; $*CWD; }
camelia pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&temp"␤ at /tmp/UmyWz9q1MZ line 1, column 3-18␤»
donaldh d'oh
jnthn jaffa4: probably src/core/control.pm 19:42
TimToady the name should go into CORE.setting
donaldh r: { temp $*CWD = ''; $*CWD }
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: ( no output )
TimToady the implementation, what jnthn++ said
jaffa4 but core.setting is generated...
diakopter r: 0 ||= 2
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤ in sub METAOP_TEST_ASSIGN:<||> at src/gen/CORE.setting:15324␤ in block at /tmp/CZlCDXAyuA:1␤␤» 19:43
jaffa4 Nothing should go there?
TimToady notionally, that's where it goes
labster CORE.setting is generated (in rakudo anyway) but cating together the files in src/core
FROGGS jaffa4: core.setting get concatenated, like from src/core/control.pm
TimToady that it is generated is an accident of implementation
jaffa4 accident?
jnthn Not having to find things in a 15000 line file is a good kind of accident :) 19:44
labster .oO ( pmichaud accidentally a whole setting )
lizmat 15732
well, after my latest patches are pushed :-) 19:45
jnthn lizmat: please say you don't know that by heart? :P
TimToady yes, an accident is what happens when an unstoppable force like CORE runs into an immovable object like your compiler table sizes
lizmat jnthn: $ wc -l src/gen/CORE.setting
15732 src/gen/CORE.setting
diakopter I once ate twelve helpings of containers in one setting
TimToady were they empty?
jnthn TimToady: Funnily enough, we throw it all at the compiler at once :)
TimToady: They're broken up for making the implementers life easier :P
TimToady s/compiler/implementor/ :) 19:46
jnthn But I probably shouldn't have admitted that :P
FROGGS .oO( implementor table size? )
donaldh oO( immediate contextual capacity ) 19:47
moritz today I learned about `git config --global help.autocorrect 1` 19:48
jaffa4 I learnt about git reset --hard
donaldh moritz++ # learning by proxy
moritz that's occasionally very useful too
FROGGS moritz: will it correct my usual wrong typing like 'git bistect bad' ?
masak moritz++ 19:49
moritz FROGGS: TIAS
masak .oO( help.damn.you.autocorrect )
diakopter heh. help.autocorrupt works too
lizmat r: my %a{Str} of Int; say %a.WHAT' # guess this is legal syntax
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/zbjHthklsr␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/zbjHthklsr:1␤------> my %a{Str} of Int; say %a.WHAT⏏' # guess this is legal syntax␤ expecting any of:␤ method arguments␤ postfix␤ …
moritz diakopter: aren't we all autocorrupted? :-)
lizmat r: my %a{Str} of Int; say %a.WHAT # guess this is legal syntax
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«(Hash[Any,Str])␤»
FROGGS moritz: cool! 19:51
donaldh wow, git is _very_ configurable
moritz $ man git-config|wc -l
2476
19:51 leont left
masak o.O 19:52
19:52 kaare_ left
masak $ perldoc perlre | wc -l 19:52
2318
git-config is more complex than Perl 5's regexes! :P 19:53
moritz wc -l S05-regex.pod
4702 S05-regex.pod
masak makes sense :)
19:53 zwut00 joined 19:54 pernatiy joined
diakopter rnp: my %a{%a} 19:54
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/K2iV1Xdt96␤Variable '%a' is not declared␤at /tmp/K2iV1Xdt96:1␤------> my %a{%a⏏}␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
..pugs: ( no output )
..niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Variable %a is not predeclared at /tmp/rVDMc_aiN8 line 1:␤------> my %a{⏏%a}␤␤Postconstraints, and shapes on variable declarators NYI at /tmp/rVDMc_aiN8 line 1 (EOF):␤------> my %a{%a}⏏<EOL>…
diakopter std: my %a{%a}
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 43m␤»
diakopter masak: masakbot bug
TimToady how so? 19:55
jnthn std: my %a{%a}
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 43m␤»
moritz wait, what? It's supposed to be visible before the declaration is finished?
jnthn stdbug :P
masak yeah, stdbug.
TimToady how so?
masak what? really?
diakopter :}
jnthn dude! 19:56
TimToady it's just not caring about the semantics of {%a}
FROGGS ahhh
masak reluctantly submits rakudobug
jnthn masak: um, why? :)
TimToady it's the same one we've already had
%a isn't introduced soon enough
masak TimToady: different case, though.
and this one might well be harder. 19:57
diakopter good luck finding the other(s)...
TimToady not if you fix the first one right...
masak yeah, right :)
diakopter seems legit
jaffa4 I found a problem makefile generated by configureJVM,pl always recompiles everything. is that normal?
diakopter r: our Any{Any} 19:58
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Type 'Any' is not declared␤at /tmp/pbmOqWROFf:1␤------> our Any⏏{Any}␤Malformed our␤at /tmp/pbmOqWROFf:1␤------> our Any⏏{Any}␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤␤»…
jnthn hasn't seen it do that
moritz "everything" is pretty much
diakopter is feeling MeanFuzzer personality today
jnthn It only re-compiles the stuff that changed, and stuff downstream of it...
lizmat $ wc -l t/spec/*/* 19:59
150970 total
masak diakopter++ # MeanFuzzer
diakopter r: my \our{\our}:=\our
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤No such method 'ast' for invocant of type 'NQPMu'␤»
jaffa4 I am reading the make file 20:00
the next jar depends on previous one?????
diakopter masak: er, that one's seen. a few times.
donaldh jaffa4: is this in rakudo ? 20:01
masak diakopter: *nod*
jaffa4 yes
donaldh jaffa4: some of the jars have content dependencies, declared in Makefile-JVM.in yes. 20:02
It's not Java code. It's nqp or perl6 code. 20:03
jaffa4 should not goto here work?
moritz how? 20:04
jaffa4 if goto is a function, "goto here" does not work...
moritz I mean you already know it's not implemented
jaffa4 just goto 'here'
moritz we talked about that yesterday
donaldh compiled directly to .jar with a cliassfile and serialisation
jnthn goto here; would work presumably because some kind of label object is installed
jaffa4 it is not implemented.. but TimToady told me it should be defined as a function 20:05
masak diakopter: you know what would be really cool? a semi-structured Markov-chain word salad generator that generated instructions for meanfuzzers in need of external inspiration. things like "a variable declaration, but it refers to itself inside the braces".
diakopter r: role popo { macro marco { $^a but popo }; marco popo; }
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/ix7YBbZNgR␤None of the parametric role variants for 'popo' matched the arguments supplied.␤Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()␤at /tmp/ix7YBbZNgR:1␤------> ␤»
diakopter npmca. win. 20:06
masak submits NPMCA rakudobug
"a role with a macro in it. the macro mixes in the role"
I'm pretty sure it can be done. 20:07
jnthn Aaaaaad....it's called marco!
diakopter seems legit
masak jnthn: seems I can't prevent diakopter doing this.
donaldh laughs his socks off
diakopter r: say(Positional but Associative)
camelia rakudo 13f2f9: OUTPUT«No such method 'mixin' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Metamodel::ParametricRoleGroupHOW'␤ in sub infix:<but> at src/gen/CORE.setting:14995␤ in sub infix:<but> at src/gen/CORE.setting:14970␤ in block at /tmp/BDUluWiLdk:1␤␤»
masak jnthn: maybe I should just start referring to him as "diakopter dikaopter". 20:08
diakopter you can't mixin to Associative?
20:08 kbaker left
lizmat dioptrake? 20:09
moritz r: role A { }; role B { }; A but B;
camelia rakudo 8f64f1: OUTPUT«No such method 'mixin' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Metamodel::ParametricRoleGroupHOW'␤ in sub infix:<but> at src/gen/CORE.setting:14995␤ in sub infix:<but> at src/gen/CORE.setting:14970␤ in block at /tmp/KveYxvBtIH:1␤␤»
moritz diakopter: you can't mix into roles
jnthn You're trying to a role into a role...
masak that's not how we role.
lizmat or rock
diakopter stops breathing a bit
jnthn We could, um, make it work by punning the first role :) 20:10
masak lizmat: or paper. or scissors.
Mouq std: $_='mOkjOkl'; tr/O/0/; .say
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 43m␤»
jnthn or ...
:)
Mouq npr: $_='mOkjOkl';tr/O/0/;.say
camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Action method quote:tr not yet implemented at /tmp/8niEsgrWlP line 1:␤------> $_='mOkjOkl';tr/O/0/⏏;.say␤␤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method statement_level in type Any␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/…
..rakudo 8f64f1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/seEuVsun8c␤Bogus statement␤at /tmp/seEuVsun8c:1␤------> $_='mOkjOkl';tr/O/0/⏏;.say␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix␤ prefix or…
..pugs: OUTPUT«m0kj0kl␤»
moritz or simply give a more awesome error message
masak jnthn: shut up! shut up!
diakopter r: say role {} but Any but role {} 20:11
camelia rakudo 8f64f1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/sQpPIZK2pd␤Operators 'but' and 'but' are non-associative and require parenthesis␤at /tmp/sQpPIZK2pd:1␤------> say role {} but Any ⏏but role {}␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ …
masak .oO( what what? in the but but )
FROGGS jaffa4: are you sure you can declare a goto-sub now? IIRC the lable is parsed, but thrown away after that 20:12
label*
jnthn masak: aarrgh, I'd forgotten that song :P
jaffa4 FROGGS: you are righ, now it just prints not yet implemented for goto 'label' in my machine 20:14
FROGGS masak-- # www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbGkxcY7YFU
20:14 EvanTeitelman left
FROGGS it is not always good to spread knowledge :o) 20:14
jaffa4: ahh, now I know what you are doing
jaffa4 Is it worth committing? 20:15
moritz "All knowledge is worth having" -- Jacqueline Carey
jaffa4 How to make an Abomb?
masak moritz: did Jacqueline Carey ever see goatse? 20:16
FROGGS: don't look that up!
FROGGS masak: I already know that one :o)
moritz masak: I have no idea. But given the contents of some of her books, it might not shock her too much :-)
FROGGS at least what it is about
lizmat just realizes that .WHAT is not really specced directly ? 20:17
masak hopes Parrot Raiser's won't be the last word in that p6l thread
(it's a bit too dismissive)
moritz doesn't have anything to add to that discussion, except the line "WHAT?"
jnthn lizmat: Pretty sure it is in S12? 20:18
moritz yes, it's in S12/Introspection 20:19
Metamethods for objects are named with interrogative pronouns in uppercase:
WHAT the type object of the type, .gist returns MyClass()
lizmat ah, yes, ack hid it between other unrelated stuff
benabik Huh. nntp.perl.org's p6l index says there are two messages in that thread, but only lists the one when I try to read the thread.
moritz speaking of S12 20:20
diakopter r: class { my $a=500; $_=2; $_=($_ but $a) while $a--; say $_.^parents }
moritz $obj.WHAT eq 'Dog()'
TimToady it's in 2, 3, 6, 9, 12, 14, 26, and 32/Numeric
moritz that looks very wrong, no?
TimToady other than that, not a word
camelia rakudo 8f64f1: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
diakopter r: class { my $a=200; $_=2; $_=($_ but $a) while $a--; say $_.^parents }
camelia rakudo 8f64f1: OUTPUT«(Int+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}+{<anon>}…
diakopter *headdesk*
rakudo's sense of humor is lacking. it can handle only 50 puns/second
er, 20 20:21
timotimo the website interface to the p6l confuses me
it says "2 messages", but when i click on the link i can see only one with no obvious way to get to the second 20:22
dalek p: 725cfa8 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/QRegex/P5Regex/ (2 files):
[P5Regex] added \r, \R, \t and \x
ecs: 6d77944 | moritz++ | S12-objects.pod:
[S12] fix wrong assumptions about type object stringification
timotimo at least parrot raiser wrote "CS" and not "BS" ;)
dalek : 2f3f004 | (Tobias Leich)++ | STATUS.md:
status udpate
FROGGS timotimo: still just off by one :o) 20:23
masak moritz: I think it's a case of "X is cool, Perl 6 is cool -- have you thought about putting X in Perl 6?"
timotimo :)
masak moritz: ...but it still deserves a measured answer.
timotimo anyway, i was able to get the mail anyway
hah, benabik ran into the same issue a few minutes ahead of me 20:24
20:25 EvanTeitelman joined
TimToady nr: my $x = "A𝖲"; $x++; $x.say 20:25
camelia rakudo 8f64f1, niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«B𝖲␤»
benabik .u 𝖲 20:26
TimToady looks better in the log
20:26 aindilis left
lizmat seems yoleaux is not with us :-( 20:27
20:27 ChanServ sets mode: +o diakopter, diakopter sets mode: -o diakopter
diakopter dpk's offline too 20:28
20:28 crab2313 joined
TimToady nr: my $x = "B𝖲"; $x++; $x.say; what happens when you increment BS? 20:29
camelia rakudo 8f64f1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/YTmoy6TXFO␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/YTmoy6TXFO:1␤------> .say; what happens when you increment BS⏏?␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ …
..niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Confused at /tmp/_9MaF7mpAi line 1:␤------> .say; what happens when you increment BS⏏?␤␤Undeclared name:␤ 'BS' used at line 1␤Undeclared routines:␤ 'happens' used at line 1␤ 'increment' used at line
..1␤ 'wh…
TimToady nr: my $x = "B𝖲"; $x++; $x.say; # what happens when you increment BS?
camelia rakudo 8f64f1, niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«C𝖲␤»
TimToady that's better :)
diakopter I see B [box with question makr] 20:30
TimToady "looks better in the log"
dalek kudo/nom: e6419ae | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (3 files):
Make .WHAT return something more sensible for arrays/hashes
diakopter not really 20:31
TimToady get an OS with better fonts?
FROGGS diakopter: your unix is broken :o)
flussence .u 𝖲 20:44
argh
jnthn hopes the bot actually does live more than onece :) 20:45
*once
flussence U+1D5B2 MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF CAPITAL S
looks like I don't have a monospace font for that :/
tadzik trolled by my own rakudobrew :|
$ rakudobrew build parrot-HEAD -> Building parrot-HEAD is NYI. Well volunteered!
*grumble* volunteer yourself >:( 20:46
jnthn *lol*
FROGGS hehe
20:46 kbaker joined
FROGGS tadzik++ 20:46
moritz ++tadzik :-)
tadzik funny thing is, it is implemented: the syntax is 'build parrot HEAD' though :) 20:47
20:49 supernovus joined
supernovus Hiya #perl6 20:50
TimToady o/
FROGGS hi supernovus 20:51
supernovus I've been away a while. Quite a while... trying to catch up on stuff I've missed. MoarVM++ 20:55
tadzik yay, it's supernovus! 20:56
masak supernovus! \o/
jnthn o/ supernovus 20:57
tadzik: Is the JVM socket support stuff merged or still in a branch? 20:58
tadzik jnthn: in a branch
supernovus *Waves to everyone* I'm doing a nice fresh checkout of Rakudo at the moment... my last build was from May... definitely outdated!
tadzik jnthn: I was hoping to at least pass the spectests, but we're lacking, for example, open(..., "rp")
"p" in particular
which is basically popen()
I may try to tackle that tomorrow, if tuits come 20:59
or rather, time
we can of course merge it anyway ;)
but I'd rather not, it's still a bit lacking imo
jnthn ok
tadzik lwp-simple doesn't always work with it, e.g. it fails with chunked downloads, dunno why 21:00
21:07 jaffa4 left, fhelmberger joined 21:08 fhelmberger left 21:11 fhelmberger joined, fhelmberger left, crab2313 left 21:13 fhelmberger joined 21:14 fhelmberger left, benabik left 21:15 bruges_ left, donaldh left
Mouq The spec says Q :subst /// is totally a thing, and AFAICT it isn't. I can't find a bug report on it 21:17
masak 'night, #perl6 21:19
supernovus Well, my internet is having some serious speed issues. Still downloading parrot... Have a great * everyone! 21:20
diakopter masak: gnigghjt
supernovus night masak!
Mouq night
PerlJam g'night masak
masak :)
21:21 supernovus left
PerlJam Mouq: you can rakudobug it yourself, if you think it's necessary. 21:22
Mouq How in the world does s/// even work as a quote? I mean it's there in the grammar; method quote:sym<s> 21:27
FROGGS Mouq: nicely :o) 21:33
Mouq: what exactly is disturbing you? 21:34
dalek ast: 4c359a1 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S12-introspection/WHAT.t:
Add hopefully comprehensive .WHAT tests (with still many TODO's :-( )
 21:35
Mouq two args :p
dalek kudo/nom: bc0051f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | t/spectest.data:
Make sure we run the .WHAT introspection tests
 21:36
Mouq Which I guess is b/c of <sibble(%*LANG<Regex>, %*LANG<!>, ['qq'])> somehow 21:37
Yeah, okay. I'm begining to understand... 21:38
FROGGS Mouq: we have quibble, sibble and tribble
Mouq Except we don't have a tribble because tr/// isn't implemented 21:40
FROGGS ohh 21:41
well, we an steal it from std :o) 21:42
Mouq Ahhh, I wasn't looking at std. Probably a good first step 21:43
FROGGS std: tr/O/o/ 21:45
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
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Mouq std: Q :cc "abc" 21:55
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $CCSTATE in string eq at STD.pm line 52755.␤ok 00:00 41m␤»
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FROGGS O.o 21:56
Mouq ... I'm having trouble finding the 52 thousandth line of STD.pm ...
TimToady that's probably the line in the translated P5 code, STD.pmc probably 21:57
or .pm5 if you want indentation, iirc
Mouq std: cc"abc" 21:58
donaldh I don't understand the parameter syntax in multi method Str(IO::Path:D:) { ... }
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row (listop with args requires whitespace or parens) at /tmp/orvHrZhiJ7 line 1:␤------> cc⏏"abc"␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ argument list␤ feed_separator␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infixed function␤
..postci…
donaldh What does the :D: mean?
FROGGS D: is for defined
Mouq camelia missed a ␤ 21:59
FROGGS so you are not allowed to pass a type object
donaldh Thx
Arcane. 22:02
Mouq This [ github.com/perl6/std/blob/master/STD.pm6#L4427 ] might be where the warning is from, though I can't tell :/ 22:03
lizmat donaldh: :U for undefined (aka Type Object)
donaldh And the trailing : ? 22:04
lizmat and on that thought, some :D for dreams for me&
Mouq night lizmat 22:06
dalek d: 34cdff5 | larry++ | STD.pm6:
don't warn if $expr<variable> :!exist
d: 06636e4 | larry++ | STD.pm6:
initialize $*CCSTATE earlier
Mouq TimToady: Does it count as cheating if I just ask you what rule cc does? 22:11
Mouq afk 22:13
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donaldh Where are :U and :D in the spec? 22:18
: D
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jnthn donaldh: perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#Abstract...rete_types 22:19
donaldh jnthn++ 22:20
TimToady Mouq: character classes and related tr/// parsing that want to parse character ranges 22:21
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jnthn 'night, #perl6 22:22
ingy night jnthn
donaldh 'Night o/ 22:24
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dalek kudo-star-daily: 5873b7c | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
today (automated commit)
 23:21
kudo-star-daily: e0c2678 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
today (automated commit)
kudo-star-daily: 652506f | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
today (automated commit)
[Coke] .to diakopter - is my cron output going anywhere? 23:22
BenGoldberg .ping
preflex: seen yoleaux 23:24
preflex yoleaux was last seen on #perl6 15 hours, 16 minutes and 9 seconds ago, saying: 07:26Z <japhb> timotimo: I'm merging your JVM changes to perl6-bench (plus updating to the latest rakudo-jvm build instructions) in my local tree, but the testing is taking a while. After I push just that, I'll start looking through your other improvements.
diakopter [Coke]: not unless you set it to 23:26
afaik
BenGoldberg Is this a bug? 23:28
rn: (gather {take 2} but role {})[0].print
camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«2»
..rakudo bc0051: OUTPUT«This type does not support elems␤ in method REIFY at src/gen/CORE.setting:7497␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:6723␤ in method gimme at src/gen/CORE.setting:7143␤ in method exists at src/gen/CORE.setting:7131␤ in method at_pos at src/gen/CORE.setting:…
TimToady yes, you keep asking the same question, basically, and it's still the same answer :) 23:34
niecza gets it right, so rakudo oughta too
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BenGoldberg It's not exactly the same question... yesterday it was a range, today it's a gather/take :) 23:54
rn: (^3 but role {})[0].print
camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«0»
..rakudo bc0051: OUTPUT«No such method 'BUILD' for invocant of type 'Range+{<anon>}'␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:6586␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:6710␤ in method gimme at src/gen/CORE.setting:7143␤ in method exists at src/gen/CORE.setting:7131␤ in method at_…
BenGoldberg The error message is different 23:55
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