»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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moritz \o 06:00
06:05 FROGGS joined 06:11 jercos joined 06:19 denisboyun joined
[Coke] moritz: just coming online? 06:23
lizmat good *, #perl5! 06:25
moritz [Coke]: yes
dalek rl6-roast-data: 7754068 | coke++ | / (5 files):
today (automated commit)
 06:26
rl6-roast-data: b7e1698 | coke++ | perl6_pass_rates:
Fix date - running after midnight somewhere...
moritz was there any parrot release yesterday?
[Coke] ... there, now I can go to sleep. 06:27
nwc10 was wondering exactly that
labster my email says there was parrot release.
lizmat moritz: there is an announcement
moritz oh right
nwc10 e-mail as of 6 minutes ago?
[Coke] #parrot claims so 06:28
tadzik this emails also informs of pmurias++ passing GSoC! \o/
moritz my mixture of mail rules means that the announcement is sorted into my p6l folder, where I didn't actively look for it
labster fixed one bug?
moritz tadzik: midterms
tadzik oh?
nwc10 I think that the e-mail only arrived 7 minutes ago
moritz All three of our GSoC students passed their midterms, and are on track to complete their Parrot and Perl 6 projects on time.
tadzik oh, misread 06:29
moritz tadzik: even better, we can expect more awesomeness from pmurias++
tadzik so gsoc is a lot longe these days
of course :)
nwc10 labster: the news is consistent with the recent commit history: github.com/parrot/parrot/commits/master
labster Well, no rush on upgrading then, we don't even use PCRE, right? 06:31
moritz labster: we don't. But if it fixes build issues with PCRE, then we won't have to pass --without-pcre to parrot's Configure.pl anymore :-) 06:32
lizmat r: say $^N # note it doesn't catch the Perl5 special var check 06:36
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/dDEbHNRo8p␤Cannot use placeholder parameter $^N in the mainline␤at /tmp/dDEbHNRo8p:1␤------> say $^N⏏ # note it doesn't catch the Perl5 spec␤»
lizmat so I guess all of the $^letter handling wrt to Perl 5 variables, can be removed 06:37
I guess that predates the invention of placeholder variables
TimToady: do you agree ?
moritz std: / $^N /
camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $^N variable; in Perl 6 please use $/[*-1] at /tmp/TY1D63p4b0 line 1:␤------> / $^N ⏏/␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 42m␤»
moritz r: / $^N / 06:38
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/xPVsSpkA_6␤Cannot use placeholder parameter $^N in the mainline␤at /tmp/xPVsSpkA_6:1␤------> / $^N⏏ /␤»
lizmat r: sub a { say $^N }; a("foo") 06:39
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«foo␤»
FROGGS lizmat: is it about just stripping this? rakudo/src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:1590: # TODO: $^X and other "caret" variables
lizmat std: sub a { say $^N }; a("foo")
camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $^N variable; in Perl 6 please use $/[*-1] at /tmp/nRsKMy8Pzf line 1:␤------> sub a { say $^N ⏏}; a("foo")␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 43m␤»
lizmat I think std is wrong here
it's about stripping the entire special_variable token 06:40
200+ lines
since that can now be handled by X::Syntax::Perl5Var 06:41
FROGGS 'now' means it is already in nom? 06:43
TimToady see S06:1966
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#line_1966
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lizmat aha, so nom is wrong in that respect 06:44
but otherwise, TimToady, would you agree it is a good thing to move special_variable handling to P6 user space? 06:45
instead of in the grammar ?
TimToady I dunno, it relies on LTM currently with lots of special lookahead dwimmery 06:46
lizmat well, it currently doesn't work
r: say $*
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/lgIvcHUKBG␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name␤at /tmp/lgIvcHUKBG:1␤------> say ⏏$*␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤»…
diakopter where is the parrot announcement
lizmat r: say $" 06:47
labster diakopter: in my email box.
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/AnOGdUUcY6␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name␤at /tmp/AnOGdUUcY6:1␤------> say ⏏$"␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤»…
lizmat r: say $'
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/bjdlifmvql␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name␤at /tmp/bjdlifmvql:1␤------> say ⏏$'␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤»…
moritz it was sent to perl6-announce too, so it'll eventually appear on planetsix too
lizmat I was appropriating that error into Perl5Var and then turn it into what STD gives
labster diakopter: this is the relevant bit of the changes, though. github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/2e...764180f363 06:48
lizmat $ perl6 -e 'say $"'
===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e
Unsupported use of $" variable; in Perl 6 please use .join() method
diakopter okay, I thought you were saying there was some non-standard announcement
06:50 crab2313 joined
TimToady and not all of it can be based on triggering by an error 06:50
std: $/ = "\n";
camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $/ variable as input record separator; in Perl 6 please use the filehandle's :irs attribute at /tmp/jYCxINWN1p line 1:␤------> $/⏏ = "\n";␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 41m␤»
TimToady that's actually legal P6
[Coke] r: say [Coke] 06:51
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/AEzTR4o_jp␤Undeclared name:␤ Coke used at line 1. Did you mean 'Code'?␤␤»
lizmat r: $/ = "\n" 06:52
camelia rakudo bda446: ( no output )
lizmat TimToady: so you're saying that rakudo has it wrong, or std ?
TimToady rakudo
lizmat as in, you cannot assign to $/, and if you do, you're assuming it is a P5 variable 06:53
TimToady yes
unfortunately assignment to $/ is a common idiom in P5 06:54
lizmat and preferablly at compile time of course
TimToady that's what STD does
std: $/ [=] "\n"; 06:56
camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Useless use of [] around infix op at /tmp/7eozoLelWC line 1:␤------> $/ ⏏[=] "\n";␤ok 00:00 43m␤»
TimToady snerk
std: ($/) = "\n";
camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 44m␤»
TimToady std: $/ := "\n";
camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 43m␤»
TimToady I think P6 $/ typically uses binding semantics underneath anyway 06:57
lizmat do you have an opinion on keeping special_variable token in the grammar otherwise
removing that and put all the specific feedback info in the X::Syntax::Perl5Var class ? 06:59
TimToady it would probably be possible to move most of the special variable detection into error analysis, but some of them would have eaten a twigil without a \w, and others that aren't followed by a twigil would have to look ahead to see if there was something P5ish
lizmat brb
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TimToady I guess it would be easier to turn off the P5ism detection if it weren't in the grammar 07:00
might cut down on lexer size a little too
FROGGS masak: I think github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master...ay02.t#L23 is against perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#The_.fmt_method 07:01
TimToady: do you agree that the directive count of .fmt/sprintf must match the argument count passed? 07:02
TimToady well, the use case for the allowing them to disagree is marginal at best 07:03
and one can always trim or extend a list of arguments to suit 07:04
also, depends on how you count "argument", since some formats are applied repeatedly to arrays/hashes by .fmt 07:06
nr: say <1 2 3>.fmt("%5.2f")
camelia rakudo bda446, niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT« 1.00 2.00 3.00␤» 07:07
TimToady like that
07:07 abnorman left
dalek rl6-bench: 7dac837 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | comp (2 files):
add rakudo-jvm to the components
 07:10
rl6-bench: 3191de6 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | comp (2 files):
Fix compiler naming to be more VM-neutral
rl6-bench: 06d0b53 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | components.json:
Update rakudo-jvm build steps to current procedure as of 2013-08-18
rl6-bench: 61c4213 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | components.json:
nqp repo renames must be reflected in build instructions for things that use nqp
rl6-bench: a48bb92 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | perl6/rc-forest-fire:
Type checking of array contents in new Rakudo catches type bug in rc-forest-fire; to make it fair across all perl6en, just de-constrain the array
FROGGS TimToady: I am talking about the call to sprintf
TimToady well, you mentioned .fmt
FROGGS TimToady: so this is invalid when we use nqp::sprintf, because only the key is used: github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master...ay02.t#L24 07:11
TimToady but yes, sprintf should probably enforce agreement, at compile time if it can
lizmat TimToady: ok, clear, need to run errands now, bbl & 07:12
FROGGS TimToady: and we are thinking that if you use directives like %$3s, the rule is more like "every arg has to be used" 07:13
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TimToady nr: say { :a(1), :b(2) }.fmt('%s:%0.0s', ' -- ') 07:15
camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«a:1 -- b:2␤»
..rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«a: -- b:␤»
TimToady it's possible to print something with 0 width, I guess
well, except in niecza :)
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TimToady given we can do 0 width, it's more reasonable to enforce the need for both a key and a value field, but I'm not sure this use of .fmt rises to the same level of error-proneness as an sprintf with the wrong number of args 07:17
FROGGS nqp-jvm: say(sprintf("%0.0s", ["test test, can you 'ear me?"])) 07:18
camelia nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«Lexical '&sprintf' not found␤ in <anon>␤ in <anon>␤ in eval␤ in evalfiles␤ in command_eval␤ in command_line␤ in MAIN␤ in <anon>␤ in <anon>»
TimToady nr: say { :a(1), :b(2) }.fmt('%s:', ' -- ')
camelia rakudo bda446, niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«a: -- b:␤»
FROGGS nqp-jvm: say(nqp::sprintf("%0.0s", ["test test, can you 'ear me?"]))
camelia nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«No registered operation handler for 'sprintf'␤ in compile_op␤ in as_jast␤ in as_jast␤ in <anon>␤ in process_args␤ in <anon>␤ in <anon>␤ in compile_op␤ in as_jast␤ in as_jast␤ in <anon>␤ in compile_all_the_stmts␤ in as_jast␤ in as_jast␤ in <anon>␤ in compi…
FROGGS huh?
TimToady neither niecza nor rakudo has trouble with a short .fmt on a key/value pair
FROGGS TimToady: that works locally using nqp::sprintf 07:19
TimToady and there are probably lots of times you're interested in only the key, so we could support that as a special case
FROGGS (it prints nothing
)
TimToady why are you trying to print an array?
FROGGS TimToady: well, parrot's sprintf doesnt care about too many args, nqp::sprintf does 07:20
TimToady: nqp's op is like that
TimToady right, no variadics
FROGGS hmmm, maybe rakudo can let nqp parse the directives, return the argument count, and the decide only to pass the key 07:21
the would make Hash.fmt("%s") work 07:22
but not sprintf( "%s", Hash ) I think
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TimToady well, not if Hash flattens into an argument list 07:23
sprintf( "%s", $hash ) would work
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TimToady fsdo work 07:23
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TimToady arguably, Array.fmt("%s %s") could figure out it should do .kv 07:24
FROGGS hmmm 07:25
TimToady well, more likely "%d: %s\n" or some such
FROGGS what if you have several directives and a mix of hashes and arrays? It can't decide to only pass keys or not
TimToady .fmt never has a mix 07:26
FROGGS but sprintf("", .... )
TimToady and sprintf is 1 for 1
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FROGGS 1 for 1? 07:26
TimToady 1 % for each arg
sprintf doesn't dwim like .fmt does 07:27
FROGGS ahh, because the args dont flatten
TimToady if you say sprintf("%s", $array), the array stringifies before %s has its way with it 07:28
likewise $hash
07:28 cognominal left
FROGGS yeah 07:28
so it will work out nicely 07:29
TimToady we have to stay close to C semantics with sprintf, but .fmt can be dwimmier
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FROGGS I know now how to fix this fwiw: perl6 -e 'say Int.fmt("%d")' 07:29
0
err
perl6 -e 'say Inf.fmt("%d")'
get_boxed_ref could not unbox for the given representation
this ^^
TimToady there's no integer representation of Inf 07:30
unlike floaters
FROGGS true, thinko
and %s already works 07:31
jnthn morning
FROGGS jnthn: morning
TimToady so we'd have to treat that specially if we wanted %d to be able to do Inf
jnthn: o/
FROGGS r: say Inf.fmt('%s')
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
FROGGS TimToady: and this is where the sprintf argument handler comes in handy
TimToady eval: printf("%d\n", inf) 07:33
or however you invoke P5 here...
prints -1
:)
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moritz p5eval: printf("%d\n", inf) 07:35
p5eval moritz: -11
moritz p5eval: sprintf("%d\n", inf)
p5eval moritz: -1
TimToady not sayin' we should follow p5's behavior here... 07:36
jnthn yawns
TimToady yawns, but for the opposite reason
jnthn :)
FROGGS gets c[#]
diakopter yawns for monkey reasons 07:37
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TimToady zzz & 07:48
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masak antenoon, '6 08:13
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moritz \o masak 08:15
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masak moritz: "You don't have permission to access /perl6/2013-08-20 on this server" for irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-08-20 08:16
yesterday is "Forbidden", apparently.
lizmat not for me ?
masak .oO( now, if you had said that about tomorrow, I wouldn't have batted an eye )
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masak hey, now it works again. 08:17
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masak never mind. 08:17
anyway, it failed twice.
moritz masak: might be a temporary problem with rate limiting
I'll have to find a better balance between not bothing users and limiting for bots
lizmat surely, yesterday is just a static file ? 08:18
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Nei certainly looks fine to me here ;) 08:19
moritz lizmat: it's not; I should make it one, eventually
having it all dynamic was perfect when I still did heavy hacking on the markup 08:20
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popl sorry for the joining and parting. I am troubleshooting an encoding issue with my terminal. :) 08:32
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moritz .tell popl a good test for a UTF-8 terminal is perl -Mcharnames=:full -CS -wle 'print "\N{EURO SIGN}"' 08:39
moritz notices he doesn't know anymore how to use the message bot de jour
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jnthn I fear yoleaux may have been appropriately named... 08:40
nwc10 was trying to remember enough French. I think it's "ajourd hui, comment s'appel le message bot du jour?" 08:41
grammar and spelling likely to be a lot worse than my German
jnthn
.oO( "le bot message" at least *sounds* frencher... )
 08:42
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moritz nwc10: I dimly recall that in French you do it in reverse order. If it's "message bot" in DE or EN, it's "bot de message" in FR 08:43
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masak .oO( the French. they do it backwards. ) 08:43
also, probably a bit tautological with both "ajourd'hui" and "du jour" :) 08:45
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masak (I don't remember how to spell French either, by the way) 08:46
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jnthn masak: F-r-e-n-c-h 08:46
You actually got it right :P 08:47
masak thank you! you're a big help.
nwc10 For some reason this makes me think of
jnthn yay, I did something useful today \o/
nwc10 My dog has no nose | How does he smell? | Terrible
tadzik :D
How does a duck look? | With its eyes, duh 08:48
it's less wrong in Polish
masak somehow is reminded of bash.org/?25464 08:49
diakopter if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... the duck's probably not cooked enough yet
masak I wonder how many type theorists have learned about duck typing and gone "what... what are you... wh... noooooooooo" 08:51
jnthn Ducks that glance at you are the tastiest. Om nom. Peeking duck.
masak dåligt.
arnsholt =D 08:52
masak at least the peeking duck is less annoying than the pecking duck.
diakopter or the pekid duck 08:54
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jnthn I think the animal pun in the MoarVM talk at YAPC is still my worst, though. :) 08:55
diakopter jnthn: I was the only one who laughed I think
I didn't mind being the only one
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masak what animal pun? 08:56
diakopter mwahaha
jnthn masak: The penguin in the GC slides...
masak amazingly, Peking duck is made from a type of duck called Pekin duck. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pekin_Duck
diakopter: I laffed, but I was forewarned :)
diakopter wait, I'm thinking of another pun in the slides
jnthn There was another? :) 08:57
diakopter where I truly was the only one who laughed
oh dear..
08:57 djanatyn left
diakopter I could've sworn... 08:58
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masak didn't pdcawley shout "what are you doing to the children, you sick bastard!?" :P 08:58
(turning them into gentoo penguins)
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jnthn haha 08:58
Probably :)
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JimmyZ masak: www.oreillynet.com/etel/blog/2004/0...ple_e.html 08:59
extend
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JimmyZ oh, this www.thinkgeek.com/product/5aa9/ 09:00
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masak the first comment in that first link, "There are 2 kinds of people -- those who divide people into kinds, and those who don't." -- is one of the few autopuns that I don't consider very funny. too "constructed". 09:01
diakopter yeah; it's not tongue-in-cheek enough in its devastating criticism 09:02
"there are 2 kinds of people -- those who write comments on this blog" 09:03
masak :)
the thinkgeek comments made me depressed. why oh why did I read the comments? :( don't read the comments.
diakopter doesn't see thinkgeek comments 09:04
masak good. 09:05
brrt slight, non-perl6-related-rant: why does everybody think that, if its over http, and somewhere json is used, and it isn't SOAP or JSON-RPC or something, its' automatically REST?
diakopter "2 in base 10 is
10 in base 2"
how many other pairs of those are there
brrt 'cause REST means a really specific thing, and 9-out-of-10 times people who call their system REST do not try to achieve that specfic thing at all 09:06
masak diakopter: "n in base 10 is 10 in base n"
diakopter: for any n. that's what "10" means.
jnthn brrt: I know. You're like "hypermedia constraint" and they're like "wtf is that" :) 09:07
brrt exactly
masak "A RESTful API is only truly RESTful if it uses hypermedia to tell us about all the actions that can be performed on the curent resource, allowing us to traverse the API from a single entry point." 09:08
I talked about this to my participants yesterday.
a SOAP guy in the audience was not impressed.
jnthn I'm never quite sure whether to treat the richardson maturity model as "it's OK to call it REST if you're on the way there" or "you shouldn't call it REST unless you're at level 3"
masak he: "you still need to spec all your resources and the verbs on them!" me: "well, yeah..."
brrt i'll be the first to admit that not everybody wants or needs the full flexibility of a REST model 09:09
jnthn brrt: Oh, for sure.
masak .oO( if we don't do our REST properly they will all HATEOAS )
diakopter jnthn: but I have unique urls for everything.
jnthn brrt: I think when a lot of people say REST they really want to say "HTTP-based API"
diakopter: That's level 1 of the maturity model. :) 09:10
brrt which is exactly the situation i'm in jnthn :-)
masak jnthn: that's like, so immature!
jnthn masak: SOAP is level 0 :P
brrt and i keep saying, no, thats not REST, because we don't have unique urls, no form of redirection or whatever, and GET and POST are equivalent
jnthn Thing is, I suspect if you fed the average consumer of a HTTP API a truly RESTful one, they'd not really know how to consume it properly anyway... 09:11
diakopter masak: so how many other bases work there in place of 10
jnthn That is, they'd go couple to all the URLs anyways...
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diakopter "but my web server only understands TRACE method 09:12
"
jnthn: what does TRACE mean in REST 09:14
because it HAS to mean SOMETHING
brrt we (n the vaguest sense) perhaps should launch some sort of education offensive
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diakopter moritz: can you query your clogs to find out the person whose comments cause the most people to part the channel (not quit) soon after? 09:16
moritz diakopter: I don't think parts are logged reliably 09:18
lizmat is it sane to throw another exception from within the message method of an exception ? 09:19
specifically, throw an X::Syntax::SigilWithoutName from with a X::Syntax::Perl5Var 09:20
if the strange var name is not one of the ones existing in Perl 5 ?
moritz NO
lizmat figured :-)
diakopter only if the message is "turtles"
moritz having .message die gives the worst possible user experience
lizmat: seems like you want a kind of static function that decides for you which exception to construct 09:21
diakopter endless loop is worse
moritz deleting all your files is also worse :-) 09:22
lizmat I'm a slow mail reader
I tend not to read mail real fast 09:23
diakopter dubs thee "outlook"
diakopter dubbeth thee "outlook"
jnthn
.oO( "outlook not so good" )
diakopter masak: did you think of any other bases than 10? :) 09:25
moritz diakopter: all bases are base 10 :-) 09:26
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masak diakopter: no :) 09:40
diakopter must mean base 10 is magical 09:43
masak I don't know how you conclude that. 09:44
lizmat if you think about it, 10 is really yin/yang 09:45
masak define "is really". 09:47
diakopter masak: the joke is that the "base 10" and "base 2" are both expressed in base 10 09:50
so there's really 3 variables there 09:51
masak diakopter: I suspected you were after something like that.
JimmyZ multi trait_mod:<is>(Routine $rl, :$really!) { ... }
masak diakopter: in any discussion about bases that purports to be serious, I usually agree on some convention with the other party, to keep things non-confused. 09:52
JimmyZ: :P
JimmyZ s/Routine $rl/Int $i/ 09:53
;)
09:54 kaleem joined
diakopter "in what base was that number you just said?" "okay, in what base was that number?" "okay, in what base was THAT number?" 09:56
moritz base specs are always decimal. 09:58
problem solved.
diakopter my measure of Perl 6's readiness: how long it takes me to come up with a new WEIRD bug when I sporadically try to 10:00
masak waitwait... is the readiness directly proportional to the time it takes, or inversely? :P 10:03
diakopter depends on oyur definition of bug 10:04
jnthn Could go either way. I mean, we make it run faster and diakopter can find bugs faster. We make it less buggy and diakopter can find bugs slower. We make it faster and less buggy and it retains its current readiness :P 10:06
masak depends if it gets less buggy faster or faster faster :P 10:07
nwc10 by this metric, how ready is Perl 5? 10:11
masak oh, I thought you removed the last bug from Perl 5 a couple of years ago... :P 10:22
diakopter nwc10: that one's trickier, because it's so difficult to nail down what is a bug 10:23
I could discover a thousand behaviors that seem bizarre and unexpected to me.. but which others will tell me, "oh, no, that's how it's supposed to work" 10:25
masak which makes backwards compatibility so much more... interesting.
because it's kind of a moving target, or at least not a fully-known target.
diakopter and it's not like I'll ever find the test for that particular case in the test suite, if it's there 10:26
s/test/RT/g 10:27
Failed language names: Morass. Tarpit. Boondoggle. Tarbaby. Sepulchre. 10:28
er, failed names of languages, I meant 10:29
not Names for failed languages
marketing department: "I really don't think we can sell your language if it's named deathtrap" 10:31
"your choice of AllSoftwareSucks for the name of your Operating System is curious" 10:36
dalek kudo/nom: a24bf6f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/ (2 files):
Catch a few more special P5 variable names
 10:40
10:41 rindolf left, ribasushi joined
lizmat what is the best way in NQP to see if a character is in A..Z ? 10:46
ge A && le Z ? 10:47
jnthn r: my $chr := 'G'; say('A' le $chr le 'Z')
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«True␤»
jnthn r: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr le 'Z')
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«False␤»
jnthn oops
nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr le 'Z')
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
lizmat in NQP
jnthn nqp: my $chr := 'G'; say('A' le $chr le 'Z') 10:48
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
lizmat cool!
jnthn um...no, it got it wrong!
wtf
Of course, you can always $chr ~~ /^<[A..Z]>$/ :) 10:49
Anyway, you can write it with ge && le too
10:49 fhelmberger left
lizmat $chr ~~ works in nqp ? 10:49
jnthn r: my $chr := 'G'; say($chr ~~ /^<[A..Z]>$/) 10:50
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«｢G｣␤␤»
10:50 fhelmberger joined
jnthn r: my $chr := 'g'; say($chr ~~ /^<[A..Z]>$/) 10:50
dammit, nqp
nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say($chr ~~ /^<[A..Z]>$/)
nqp: my $chr := 'G'; say($chr ~~ /^<[A..Z]>$/)
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
nqp: OUTPUT«␤»
nqp: OUTPUT«G␤»
jnthn anyway, yes :)
lizmat cool
thanks!
jnthn is happy to see that this is already mentioned in the Rakudo and NQP internals course :) 10:51
lizmat :-)
masak \o/
lizmat r: { say $^X }("foo") 10:58
camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«foo␤»
lizmat $ perl6 -e '{ say $^X }("foo")'
===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e
Unsupported use of $^X variable; in Perl 6 please use $*EXECUTABLE_NAME
spectesting now
moritz std: { say $^X }("foo") 11:02
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camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $^X variable; in Perl 6 please use $*EXECUTABLE_NAME at /tmp/iQS4nIgiEM line 1:␤------> { say $^X ⏏}("foo")␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 43m␤» 11:02
moritz but isn't $^X valid Perl 6 also?
grondilu rn: say { $_ < 2 ?? 1 !! $_*&?BLOCK($_-1) }(4); 11:05
camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«24␤»
..rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/IjPPeU4UcH␤Undeclared name:␤ &?BLOCK used at line 1␤␤»
lizmat moritz: no
perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#line_1968 11:06
masak somehow this article made me think of #perl6 in general and jnthn in particular: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main...geonMaster
dalek kudo/nom: 8e617d5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
Disallow $^A..Z as perl S06:1968
 11:07
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#line_1968
moritz masak: I propose to change our standard expletive to "WTP", "What The Pun" :-) 11:08
(and if you don't immediately like this proposal, punder it a bit :-) 11:09
lizmat What The Poo ?
masak moritz: :P
lizmat Winnie!
masak moritz: I will take it punder consideration.
lunch &
lizmat or just Winnie The Poo 11:10
11:10 kaleem left, kaleem joined
masak .oO( Winnie The Unicode Pile of Poo ) 11:10
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dalek kudo-js: 1df3259 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/QAST/Compiler/JavaScript.nqp:
While emitting JavaScript correctly quote string containing \.
 11:17
kudo-js: 336fb9b | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/QAST/Compiler/JavaScript.nqp:
Implement \s in regexes.
kudo-js: 63954ec | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime/serialization.js:
Correctly deserialize hashes of variants containing the key "deserialize".
kudo-js: cb76b7f | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime.js:
Make nqp::join stringify it's arguments properly.
kudo-js: 4b63f88 | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime.js:
Implement nqp::printfh.
kudo-js: 614cc21 | (Pawel Murias)++ | / (2 files):
Implement nqp::shell.
kudo-js: 5ba0bda | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime.js:
A slightly hackish implementation of nqp::where for P6opaque objects.
 11:19
kudo/nom: 149bd0f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
Mention that $^A..$^Z are no longer allowed
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dalek kudo/nom: 4c26636 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
Move message of SigilWithoutName to Perl5Var, eradicate SigilWithoutName
 11:44
ast: 70940e2 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
SigilWithoutName is now Perl5Var
 11:45
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dalek kudo/nom: e84ddaf | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
Make sure we do the $^A..Z check before the mainline check
 11:57
12:05 kbaker joined
dalek ast: 449915a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
Add some more Perl5Var exception tests
 12:07
lizmat this concludes mo foray into Grammar and Actions wrt to Perl5 variables in Perl 6 for nw 12:08
*my
need to get more experience with grammars before touching <special_variable> again 12:15
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lizmat r: .say for < $< $> > # rakudobug ? 12:26
camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«$<$>␤»
moritz std: .say for < $< $> > 12:28
camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
moritz seems STD agrees 12:29
lizmat agrees that the space between $< and $> disappears ?
and it becomes a single string ?
benabik Yeah. I would have expected "$<\n$>\n"
r: < $< $> >.perl.say 12:30
camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«("\$<\$>",).list␤»
jnthn It didn't become a single string
oh, or did it... 12:31
Hm
Hm, that should probably have become quote words...
benabik Well, it became a list with a single string, technically. :-D
jnthn Yeah. Odd
masak submits rakudobug
dalek ast: 1055f06 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
Why not check exhaustive for all of the Perl5Var cases
 12:33
ast: a528442 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
Don't need to check for '$*' twice
 12:34
tadzik better check twice, to be sure :) 12:35
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dalek ast: c1d1a44 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
Grrr you can't "todo" throws_like tests (almost certain you get TODO's passed)
 12:37
lizmat time for a break, cycling& 12:38
12:46 rindolf joined
clkao win 22 12:48
timotimo is that the anti-version of catch 22?
clkao lol
masak no, it's Windows from the future.
JimmyZ is windows 98 from the future? 12:49
and windows 7 from the past 12:50
timotimo JimmyZ: that's the biggest y2k bug ever right there :)
in 80 years, windows 95 will make a big comebacks onto quantum computers solar-system wide. 12:51
JimmyZ ;)
masak JimmyZ: Windows 22 (also known as "win22") was released on November 2024. 12:52
;)
JimmyZ and windows 2003?
masak March 201023.
JimmyZ ;)
12:53 kamen44 joined
masak still chuckles at #python's "NO LOL | NO PROJECT EULER" /topic 13:00
timotimo hehe
13:00 kamen44 left
masak it's like in Malmö central station, we had a sign "no balloons". 13:00
someone tweeted "what is this, East Germany?"
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masak sidus: greetings. 13:14
FROGGS timotimo: from 13.09. to 16.09. a night in hotel acasa is 99€, because there is the Automobilmesse >.< 13:15
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timotimo bleh. 13:15
that's very expensive. 13:16
FROGGS it is
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masak .oO( hotel acausal ) 14:08
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TimToady nqp: my $chr := 'G'; say($chr.ord ~~ 'A'.ord .. 'Z'.ord) 15:35
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "say($chr.o"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 14721 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:5232) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.nqp:279)␤»
jnthn Double fail. No ranges, and no methods on strings. :) 15:36
TimToady nqp: my $chr := 'G'; say(ord($chr) ~~ ord('A') .. ord('Z'))
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "say(ord($c"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 14721 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:5232) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.nqp:279)␤»
TimToady ah well 15:37
[Coke] (REST) I call my crappy apis RESTful. they're RESTy. RESTlike. RESTalicious. (but not usually really REST)
(backscrollin, across the universe..)
TimToady RESTiferous, most of 'em are
timotimo "well RESTed" 15:38
geekosaur resting gently among the perls 15:39
TimToady tries to avoid picturing geekosaur on the half shell 15:40
15:40 xinming joined
TimToady npr: .say for < $< $> > 15:45
camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209, pugs: OUTPUT«$<␤$>␤»
..rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«$<$>␤»
[Coke] ah, shit. :(
TimToady looks like rakudo is odd-person-out
jnthn I blame the guy who messed around loads with quoting last :P 15:46
15:48 ajr_ left
daxim brrt is my man! 15:51
let me chime in, 8 hours too late
fielding on his blog made it clear that the maturity model does not apply - if there's no hypermedia, it isn't rest. basta 15:52
jnthn Fair enough. 15:53
Given they're *constraints* I guess you'd expect it to be that way.
daxim exactly! … but it's a complicated topic :( 15:54
jnthn *nod*
daxim I'm doing my part by educating the local developer scene, touring meetup 15:55
15:55 crab2313 joined
daxim learning from examples works best 15:55
perigrin [Coke]: RESTifarian? 15:56
15:58 MilkmanDan joined 15:59 kaleem left
geekosaur the RESTaurant 15:59
[Coke] perigrin: giveitaREST 16:01
16:02 daxim left
jnap RESTinpeace? 16:02
perigrin [Coke]: when it comes to web interactions I find it hard to RESTrain myself.
diakopter seems everyone's a terroREST nowadays
MilkmanDan Oh lawd, what did I walk into... 16:03
jnthn #perl6
geekosaur shoulda RESTed first?
perigrin what jnthn said
diakopter jnthn: which web scheme is fairest of them all 16:05
jnthn diakopter: your mom's scheme, of course... 16:06
diakopter arrests you 16:07
TimToady MilkmanDan: er, welcome! 16:13
16:13 locsmif joined
TimToady pay not attention to the rest of these jokers...er...oops 16:15
*no
16:16 cognominal joined
TimToady MilkmanDan: we do, occasionally, have on-topic conversations here... 16:16
perigrin the REST of the time ...
TimToady it's just that, since Perl 6 is designed to interface with everything else in the world, we often end up talking about...everything else... 16:17
MilkmanDan: did you have any questions about Perl 6? 16:21
16:21 cognominal left 16:22 cognominal joined
MilkmanDan TimToady: Just wondering the state of the new onion, really. 16:22
But I think I've gotten a good enough idea from www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2012/12/...erl-6.html
TimToady um 16:24
a lot has changed since December 16:25
not all of it with the approval of chromatic++ :)
FROGGS hehe
>.< 16:26
MilkmanDan heh
Fair enough.
I got there via www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=1047676 though.
My original question was "I wonder why there are no mentions of perl6 at benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/ " 16:27
I had assumed that it had gotten along a lot farther since last I looked, and you know what that means.... 16:28
TimToady well, the JVM port isn't really expected to be all that performant initially, though it's encouraging that in at least one case it was faster
moarvm is expected to be performant, but it's not quite self-hosted yet 16:29
so I expect you'll see a lot more benchmarking in the coming year
MilkmanDan nod 16:32
Parrot doesn't seem to be ready for production either, from what I gather. Not so? 16:34
TimToady Parrot...was not a success story... 16:39
MilkmanDan So I gathered. 16:40
TimToady except in the Edisonian sense of finding out ways not to invent the lightbulb
well, this is overstated a hair, since we're still using it to bootstrap other implementations 16:41
MilkmanDan Also there doesn't seem to be a Learning Perl for 6, unless the git project that hasn't been touched in 9 months is already complete.
er, complete and intended to serve.
16:41 spider-mario joined
TimToady a "new camel" is in the works, but it'll take a while 16:42
MilkmanDan I'd be more at the llama stage. :)
diakopter is more at the pupa stage
pmichaud morning, #perl6 16:43
moritz \o *
TimToady o/
16:43 Rix left
FROGGS o/ 16:44
TimToady: who is writing it?
grondilu MilkmanDan: the synopsyses are not too bad a way to learn Perl 6, imho. They are decently well written.
jnthn o/
TimToady FROGGS: TheDamian is my co-author. 16:45
FROGGS cool
TimToady still mostly at the outline stage though
FROGGS jnthn: I'm in frankfurt from friday evening (20:30) to monday morning... when do you plan to arrive/depart? 16:46
TimToady: yeah, if I would intend to write a book it will most likely only reach that stage 16:47
TimToady takes a bit of OCD to successfuly write a book
FROGGS OCD? 16:48
TimToady obsessive compulsive disorder
jnthn FROGGS: I don't (can't) know about arrival yet
FROGGS I know LSD fwiw, but these are not the 70s
TimToady since my OCD has to fit in with all my other syndromes, I have to work on emphasizing that aspect when I flip into writing mode
16:48 SamuraiJack joined
jnthn FROGGS: I'll arrive on Friday at some point. It depends whether I end up teaching on the Friday, and where I'd be coming from. 16:49
FROGGS yeah
jnthn FROGGS: Probably I depart Monday.
FROGGS it took like 5 months to write an article for the german $foo magazine, it would take ages to write a book, and it wouldn't easy to read I fear 16:50
brb 16:51
TimToady at the moment I'm OCDing more on my CJK character database, but I only have 818 characters left to do, out of roughly 70,000, so I can (I hope) let that go soon. 16:52
16:53 pernatiy left
TimToady well, right now I'd better obsess about getting my poor kitty some catfood... 16:54
16:55 dakkar left 17:01 gdey_ joined 17:03 Targen joined
jnthn back in a couple of hours 17:05
&
MilkmanDan grondilu: Not bad, for a beginner? Or not bad for someone who is already working in p5?
17:06 gdey left 17:13 djanatyn left
grondilu MilkmanDan: I'm not sure what you mean by "beginner". I meant that it's not bad for someone who has a good culure in programming. 17:14
17:14 djanatyn joined
grondilu the synopsys are a good way to learn perl6 for anyone who is already used to read perl5 doc, that what I meant. 17:15
colomon nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr le 'Z')
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
colomon nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr && $chr le 'Z') 17:16
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«0␤»
colomon nqp: my $chr := 'G'; say('A' le $chr && $chr le 'Z')
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
MilkmanDan grondilu: Ok. So, closer to the camel book than the llama.
colomon doesn't know if someone else pointed that out along the way, ETOOMUCHBACKLOG
colomon is also suffering from ETOOMUCHISETHEBY
17:17 timotimo joined
benabik colomon: I don't think the comparisons are supposed to chain in NQP. 17:19
src/NQP/Grammar.pm:691: NQP::Grammar.O(':prec<m=>, :assoc<left>', '%relational');
grondilu nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say(0 le 'Z') 17:21
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
grondilu nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr))
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "say('A' le"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 14721 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:5232) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.nqp:279)␤»
grondilu nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr)
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
grondilu nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say(1 le 'Z')
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
benabik grondilu: Exactly. 'A' le $chr le 'Z' is ('A' le $chr) le 'Z', which is probably not what you meant. 17:22
17:22 crab2313 left
benabik Perhaps the relationals should be nonassoc rather than left. 17:23
17:23 abnorman joined
benabik (Alternatively, chaining, which is more convenient.) 17:23
grondilu indeed, order relations are *never* associative, are they? 17:24
grondilu kind of remember this from his maths course, long ago
benabik It's a type problem. < : 'a -> 'a -> Bool. So unless you're trying to order booleans, it's naturally non-associative. 17:25
lizmat is back 17:26
grondilu an order relation is: reflexive, antisymetric and transitive. But *not* associative.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_theory
so yeah, it should be non-associative.
benabik Or chaining, which is a non-standard associativity. (a < b < c --> a < b && b < c, but evals b once) 17:27
grondilu yeah but that's different. we were discussing about the fact that < was defined as :assoc<left>, which is wrong as I understand it. 17:29
when you write a < b < c, you actually use a ternary operator, don't you? 17:30
I mean it's not the same operator at all.
(because < as a binary operator is not associative, so a < b < c can not be defined. You must define a ternary operator that uses the same symbol) 17:34
TimToady well, it's really a variadic higher-order function that alternates comparands with comparators
17:35 abnorman left
grondilu How does one define a ternary infix in Perl 6? 17:35
TimToady by cheating 17:36
grondilu sub infix:<a b>($x, $y, $z) {...} # like that?
17:36 MilkmanDan left
grondilu std: sub infix:<a b>($x, $y, $z) {...} # like that? 17:36
camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $x is declared but not used at /tmp/HHqisw6VMp line 1:␤------> sub infix:<a b>(⏏$x, $y, $z) {...} # like that?␤ $y is declared but not used at /tmp/HHqisw6VMp line 1:␤------> sub infix:<a b>($x, ⏏$y, $z) {…
benabik ?? !! is implemented as token infix:<?? !!> { '??' <O(prec)> '!!' }
TimToady I suppose that could be supported, if we were interested in encouraging ternary operators :)
benabik I think you'd have to use `is parsed`.
grondilu TimToady: I think it's the most logical way to define a < b < c 17:37
TimToady I don't; I already said what I think it is above.
benabik grondilu: But then what happens when you try a < b < c < d
diakopter chained comparison needs the same compiler trick as chained ||
grondilu benabik: oh yeah, good point.
17:37 Rix joined
TimToady diakopter: except || degenerates gracefully to binops, while < doesn't 17:39
the chain ops differ from list associative ops in allowing the operators to differ
a || b ^^ c is not list associative 17:40
17:40 abnorman joined
TimToady but a < b != c is chaining 17:40
catfoodr & 17:41
grondilu so yeah that's the higher order function stuff. TimToady's right I guess, which is not too surprising :) 17:43
benabik makes sure that changing it to non-associative doesn't break things.
colomon benabik: I agree, but someone up-log was trying to chain them.
benabik colomon: Well, I'm not sure what magic is needed to make them chain, but I can at least break the code in a useful way. :-) 17:44
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lizmat Seems it's going to be hard to get a hotel room in Frankfurt around 13/16 September 17:47
so I booked 4 extra 2xsingle rooms at the www.booking.com/hotel/de/arena.en-gb.html 17:48
which is around the corner from the venue
17:49 bluescreen10 left
lizmat so the first 10 attendees of the Rakudo and NQP Internals Workshop will have a place to stay and need not book anything 17:50
unless they want to arrive before the 13th or leave after the 16th
timotimo ooooooh 17:52
benabik lizmat++
timotimo i booked a hotel already
17:52 wingfold left
timotimo in the "hotel tourist" 17:52
lizmat can you cancel it still ? 17:53
timotimo yes, but it'll cost me full price
lizmat I mean without paying anything ?
ah, then you can't cancel :-)
timotimo nope
lizmat is it far from the venue ?
benabik nqp passes self-tests with non-assoc relationals. Now building Rakudo. 17:54
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lizmat timotimo: looks like 4 stops with the S-Bahn, that is, if it goes into Hbf 17:57
Let's see how the number of attendees works out 17:58
if there is room in the Arena Hotel, then you can decide whether to stay there or go to Hotel Tourist after all 17:59
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FROGGS how much is a night in Hotel Arena? 18:01
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FROGGS I pay 80 eur in Hotel Tourist, and it is the cheapest I could find (in case you dont want to share your toilet with others...) 18:02
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lizmat FROGGS: did you book also already ? 18:14
FROGGS yes
lizmat shite (excusez le mot)
at Tourist ?
FROGGS right
lizmat non-refundable, I assume
Arena would come to ~ 75 euro if you share with someone 18:15
FROGGS Alle Stornierungen werden mit dem Gesamtbetrag berechnet.Änderungen, die bis zu 30 Tage vor Anreisedatum erfolgen, sind kostenfrei.Änderungen, die verspätet erfolgen, sowie Nichtanreisen werden mit dem Gesamtbetrag berechnet. 18:16
:o(
18:16 thou left
Mouq What is $*W? 18:16
lizmat ok, I guess you will be hotelmates with timotimo
FROGGS Mouq: the World
lizmat src/Perl6/World.nqp 18:17
Mouq Ahh, cool. Thank you
FROGGS lizmat: yeah, but we have separate rooms
18:18 abnorman left, thou joined
lizmat well, I hope that nobody else has booked yet... 18:19
if so, we should have ample rooms 18:20
in any case, I've just decided that the hotel will be on my bill anyway 18:21
so I'll refund you and timotimo for the stay in Tourist
so that we are all equal in that respect at the RaNIW 18:22
FROGGS O.o
wow
lizmat is that a plan?
I'd rather invest in the Perl community this way, then giving TPF money :-) 18:23
FROGGS that is an awesome offer, but I have no problem paying my room, really
why that?
lizmat well, in that case, I won't refund you :-)
FROGGS *g*
18:24 wingfold left, ssutch joined
lizmat because I feel it is very important to have a smooth / cosy / intense / workshop / social / hackathon 18:24
hopefully, everybody at the workshop will in the future contribute to Rakudo / NQP 18:25
knowing each other better helps a lot, in that respect
FROGGS true
lizmat I just didn't expect hotels to be so scarce already
brb 18:26
FROGGS that is why I already come on friday at half past eight in the evening, and leave monday at nine
lizmat: there is a car show at that time, hotel prizes are almost twice as much as usual
18:29 fhelmberger joined 18:32 abnorman joined
dalek p: 0c91ec7 | benabik++ | src/NQP/Grammar.nqp:
Relational operators are non-associative

As colomon++ pointed out, 'A' le 'g' le 'Z' evaluates to true because infix:<le> is left associative and 1 le 'Z'. While the appropriate chaining behavior a la full perl 6 would be more helpful, marking the relationals as non-associative at least prevents your code from doing the wrong thing.		 18:32
18:34 fhelmberger left
dalek ecs: 33d795b | larry++ | S05-regex.pod:
disallow direct assignment to $/
 18:35
timotimo lizmat: wow, that offer is very generous; you are going to pay for my cancellation *as well as* the hotel room close to the venue? 18:36
lizmat well, if there is no more room for you in the Arena Hotel, I'm going to ask you to use your room at the Tourist
so don't cancel
timotimo okay
lizmat there is no point
timotimo right. if i don't cancel, it's no difference for money, but a negative impact on flexibility 18:37
lizmat indeed
timotimo that's crazy cool :) thanks a lot 18:38
i'll gladly accept that offer
lizmat you're welcome :-)
benabik
.oO( Now I just need someone to pay for a trans-Atlantic flight, and I'm set. ;-) )
FROGGS *g* 18:39
18:39 SamuraiJack left
lizmat TimToady: as I understand <special_variable>, this should already happen 18:39
but it doesn't: is that related to LTM not working at the moment? 18:40
benabik Where's YAPC::NA 2014?
lizmat Sofia, Bulgaria
FROGGS that is EU
lizmat oops, YAPC::EI
NA is in Orland, FL 18:41
Orlando
benabik It's not easy for me to attend ::NA, so ::EU seems extremely unlikely. :)
TimToady lizmat: you mean the $/ = test? beats me...I just write the spec 18:42
was just catching the spec up to what std already does
lizmat indeed :-) 18:44
jnthn back 18:58
lizmat jnthn: fyi, I've already booked a hotel in Frankfurt from Fri/Mon 18:59
jnthn lizmat: For mig? 19:00
*me
lizmat yes
jnthn \o/
Cool
lizmat well, if you want it
:-)
jnthn Sure :)
lizmat the hotel is around the corner from the venue
jnthn The Monday end of it is easy. The Friday is more likely to be free for me too so I can arrive in time for some dinner rather than flying in on the evening. 19:01
Though don't know for a bit.
jnthn ticks "be on a podcast" off on his list of accomplishments 19:02
timotimo \o/
FROGGS podcast? where?
jnthn FROGGS: Hm, not sure where, I shoulda asked that :) 19:06
Nothing about Perl stuff, though. More about what I do at $dayjob :)
FROGGS still... :o) 19:07
are they google-able? do they have a name?
jnthn It should be up on Monday, I'll probably tweet it or something... :) 19:09
FROGGS hmmm, if you are going to post that on facebook than I have to get my wife to stalk you 19:10
FROGGS has no facebook account 19:11
lizmat neither, but woolfy does
.oO( one in the family is enough for the NSA to follow us)
timotimo lizmat: is there a list i need to put my name into to be officially "in" the workshop? 19:12
lizmat you're on the list :-)
the list for now: jnthn, lizmat (woolfy),timotimo,FROGGS,moritz,[Coke],Roland Schmitz 19:14
did I forget anybody already ?
FROGGS dunno 19:15
jnthn yay, I'm on the list \o/
woolfy jnthn++
FROGGS hi woolfy
jnthn woolfy! \o/
woolfy no, there's no woolfy here, just a bleak and sweaty shadow with food poisoning and pneumonia! :-) 19:16
jnthn whoa!
Hope you're better soon. That sounds like a nasty combo... 19:17
19:17 cognominal left
lizmat was only sick for ~ 48 hours coming back from Kiev 19:17
woolfy so nasty that cognominal left the room... :-)
FROGGS ohh ó.ò
hehe
woolfy Hey, positive thing: I lost 5,5 kg in 5 days! Dieticiens 19:18
s dream
hmm
lizmat tadzik expressed interested in attending, afaik
jnthn managed to escape getting sick from Kiev
lizmat tadzik ?
lizmat wonders if the sick people were the ones who went to basement in Mafia the last night 19:19
not all of the people there got sick, but all the sick people were there, afaik 19:20
woolfy All the sick people were there: lizmat, woolfy, sno (and his wife), markov, leont
Not sick was riba
19:22 zwut00 joined
tadzik lizmat: oh yes, I am interested :) 19:25
lizmat so, should I add you to the list ?
timotimo wow, get better soon, woolfy!
tadzik of course 19:26
what dates are those, again?
lizmat consider yourself added
tadzik I should probably make travel arrangements
lizmat 14/15 sep
better arrive on 13, leave on 16 I guess
tadzik yeah
lizmat rooms already booked (if you don't mind sharing)
tadzik oooh! 19:27
moritz lizmat: I'm not sure if leont expressed interest
tadzik Thank you! I never mind sharing :)
timotimo is cool with sharing, doesn't snore and is friendly to people and animals
woolfy timotimo: thanks (on medication now, will get better soon)
lizmat I'll check with leont
19:27 fhelmberger joined
moritz lizmat: and maybe sno 19:28
(he wanted to hack on nativecall or an XS replacement)
tadzik fwiw, I was not in mafia and I was not sick :)
moritz was not in the mafia, and now has a bad cough, but I also had a cough before I went to Kiev 19:29
lizmat I will ask sno this weekend at the FrosCON
19:29 fhelmberger left, fhelmberger_ joined
lizmat pmichaud: all our strength wished to you in this difficult time 19:30
19:31 lowpro30_ joined
woolfy pmichaud: my thoughts are with you 19:31
Can we help? 19:32
FROGGS ohh 19:34
pmichaud: my sincerest condolences
19:35 lowpro30 left
FROGGS :/ 19:36
19:40 jnap1 joined 19:41 jnap left
timotimo pmichaud: i'm sorry for your loss :( 19:45
colomon pmichaud: like woolfy said, if there's anything we can do to help, just let us know. :( 19:46
19:51 gdey left
Tene pmichaud: My condolences for your loss. 19:55
colomon lizmat++ 19:57
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pmichaud thanks, all. 20:10
dalek kudo/nom: c772e72 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
Only need to check on variables longer than *2* characters
 20:11
lizmat hugme hug pmichaud
hugme hugs pmichaud
dalek p: 92e2858 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (3 files):
use nqp::sprintf for parrot backend also

We used it for JVM only, but by adding nqp::sprintfdirectives, which parses a format string to return the directive count, it is ready to use.		 20:12
timotimo FROGGS: another piece of good news for the changelog
20:12 lowpro30_ left
FROGGS true 20:13
jnthn FROGGS: We get no regressions from that?
FROGGS no
20:14 Mouq left
dalek kudo/nom: 083e3f2 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (3 files):
use nqp::sprintf, Hash.fmt needed special-casing though
 20:15
jnthn FROGGS: yay
FROGGS :o)
20:16 hummeleBop joined
tadzik hugs pmichaud 20:16
20:20 kaare_ left
moritz FROGGS: does that mean that parakudo now handles bigints in %d formats? 20:25
FROGGS moritz: yes
moritz \o/
jnthn \o/
FROGGS I'm currently rebuilding all in order to strip #?rakudo.parrot todo's 20:26
moritz r: printf '%d', 2**65
camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«0»
moritz not yet rebuilt
colomon FROGGS++
FROGGS :o)
jnthn convergence++
Better still, we can use the same sprintf impl on MoarVM :)
FROGGS jnthn: yeah, an old copy of it is already in there 20:27
timotimo all our visions of cross-platforminity are coming true!
FROGGS as seen by the bt from yesterday
*g*
and guess why I do all this? 20:28
I need it for v5 :P
lizmat :-)
moritz :-)
lizmat No registered operation handler for 'sprintfaddargumenthandler'
:-(
moritz lizmat: did you update nqp?
FROGGS and reconfigure 20:29
lizmat shouldn't that happen automatically when I do a perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot ?
ok, i'll nuke nqp dir and do it again
tadzik rakudobrew build all \o/
jnthn Was NQP_REVISION bumped? 20:30
tadzik ^C \o/
moritz yes
lizmat Note: checking out '2013.07-98-g92e2858'.
HEAD is now at 92e2858 20:31
seems ok
tadzik fun fact: two first characters of the revisions are the same
2013.07-87-g9706494 vs 2013.07-98-g92e2858
jnthn g is no revision char :P
tadzik really? :( 20:32
jnthn It means git, I think
moritz I think it stands for 'git#
s/#/'/
jnthn I mean, the sha-1 is in hex... :)
tadzik oh well, it's a little bit more than hex can handle :)
jnthn g is a bit big for hex :)
lizmat
.oO( we need BIGhex )
20:32 donaldh joined
lizmat bigint just doesn't cut it anymore in the modern world :-) 20:33
dalek ast: 165aab2 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
unfudge sprintf tests
lizmat there goes JVM below 99% again :-) 20:34
moritz :(
oh, but that's because parakudo goes up, right? 20:35
FROGGS right
dalek kudo/nom: 44ba8ad | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
printf %d for bigints works on parakudo
FROGGS runs spectest again just because he is paranoid
lizmat No registered operation handler for 'sprintfaddargumenthandler
again :-(
guess I'll nuke the install dir to be sure 20:36
FROGGS can somebody else try? 20:37
tadzik tries
moritz I'm building on jvm right now
tadzik parakudo's still building
FROGGS there is nothing unpushed related to sprintf
donaldh hai o/ 20:38
FROGGS hi donaldh
donaldh try ? latest commits ?
FROGGS yeah
donaldh nqp is looking good for me, just building rakudo
20:39 hummeleBop left
moritz tries too 20:40
masak moritz: got another "Forbidden" from irclog. 20:41
FROGGS: just saw irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-08-21#i_7479324 20:42
FROGGS: I agree that's not useful, and should always be two args for hashes.
FROGGS: feel free to enforce that.
FROGGS masak: later there was a discussion with TimToady, and we agreed to pass the key only if there is just one sprintf directive 20:43
masak: here, irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-08-21#i_7479412 20:45
moritz masak: are you behind a large NAT?
lizmat seems to get past stage pir now
FROGGS crosses fingers
lizmat $ perl6 -e 'printf "%d\n", 2**65'
36893488147419103232
yeah! 20:46
FROGGS \o/
lizmat running spectest now
donaldh is there an eval bot for jvm rakudo ?
FROGGS donaldh: not that I know
camelia: help
camelia FROGGS: Usage: <(nqp-jvm|star|pugs|nqp|std|niecza|rakudo|b|nom|npr|n|r|perl6|prn|rn|p|rnp|nrp|pnr|rpn|p6|nr)(?^::\s) $perl6_program>
FROGGS no
timotimo hm, it seems to me we got rid of the last blockers recently, no? 20:47
moritz lizmat: I get the same error on JVM
FROGGS timotimo: what blockers?
timotimo for getting a jvm evalbot
lizmat moritz: seems that nuking the install dir made it work for me 20:48
FROGGS lizmat: I had that once too, but I dunno what enforces that
lizmat I guess at some point it tries to use the old nqp?
FROGGS hmmm, next time we could check if something still has an old mtime 20:50
t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t (Wstat: 0 Tests: 41 Failed: 7)
Failed tests: 2, 4, 6, 20, 33, 39, 41
the rest is fine on my box
masak moritz: possibly. I am in a hotel. 20:51
FROGGS: at first glance, that feels like a bad idea. 20:52
FROGGS: for the simple reason that that's not how sprintf rolls, so neither should .fmt
lizmat FROGGS: that is a long standing pb
those tests take 20 seconds when they shouldn't
masak FROGGS: if we let .fmt do that, then .fmt shoulders some of the logic of sprintf (which is bad), having to parse the directives itself.
FROGGS masak: it does not parse 'em 20:53
lizmat it indicates a problem in the socket code, or a problem in the test
FROGGS masak: but true, in this case Hash decides what it is going to pass to sprintf in case of a .fmt call
20:54 jnap1 left
lizmat intriguing, after the rebuild all of my ico related errors are gone 20:54
FROGGS lizmat: you're welcome :P 20:55
lizmat so, spectest clean
FROGGS awesome
lizmat *icu
20:55 xenoterracide joined
FROGGS the IO-Socket-INET tests are clean too? 20:55
lizmat no
FROGGS k
lizmat the same 7 failures
FROGGS I'd try to fix them if it wasn't that late already 20:56
lizmat ok, maybe the 5 second boundary is too small 20:57
donaldh MacOS, JVM, No registered operation handler for 'sprintfdirectives'
Just cleaning everything, nuking install dirs, etc. 20:58
FROGGS rm -rf install && cd parrot && make install && perl ConfigureJVM.pl && make install
donaldh jvm :-) 20:59
FROGGS ahh, ehh, yeah *g*
dalek ast: e95d9dd | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t:
Give 10 seconds time instead of 5
lizmat with this change, INET passes when run by itself for me
running it as part of the spectest now 21:00
maybe I should increase the time some more if run in a parallel spectest 21:01
FROGGS lizmat++
same on my box
21:01 skids left, jnap joined
FROGGS we have a clean test suite \o/ 21:01
lizmat not sure if it is clean with TEST_JOBS=8 21:02
FROGGS meh
only 4 here :o(
but hey, it is still an awesome laptop :o9
:o)
timotimo has 2 cores in his laptop and trying to compile a rakudo will invariably get the temperature up to 90degC and the cores underclocked to not melt 21:04
moritz setting compilation still fails here 21:05
after 'git clean -xdf' in both rakudo and nqp
lizmat moritz: did you nuke the install dir ?
timotimo it's really annoying that "auto" will only go up to "fullspeed", which is about half as fast as "disengaged"
21:06 grondilu left
donaldh r: %*ENV<AAAAA> = 'aaaaa'; say(%*ENV.keys) 21:07
camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«MANPATH PERLBREW_VERSION PERLBREW_PERL SHELL TERM USER LS_COLORS PERLBREW_BASHRC_VERSION PERLBREW_ROOT MANPATH_WITHOUT_PERLBREW MAIL PATH PWD LANG PERLBREW_HOME PATH_WITHOUT_PERLBREW SHLVL HOME PERLBREW_MANPATH PERLBREW_PATH LOGNAME _ OLDPWD␤»
donaldh r: %*ENV<AAAAA> = 'aaaaa'; say(%*ENV<AAAAA>) 21:08
camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«aaaaa␤»
donaldh weird huh?
lizmat %*ENV is special, check src/core/terms
I wouldn't be surprised that keys is not updated
donaldh Why special. Broken special?
lizmat it's also not VM agnostic, so could be a pb on one VM only
donaldh I get same on JVM. 21:09
moritz r: %*ENV<AAAAA> = 'aaaaa'; say(%*ENV.keys.sort)
lizmat FROGGS: parallel spectest now also clean for me
camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«HOME LANG LOGNAME LS_COLORS MAIL MANPATH MANPATH_WITHOUT_PERLBREW OLDPWD PATH PATH_WITHOUT_PERLBREW PERLBREW_BASHRC_VERSION PERLBREW_HOME PERLBREW_MANPATH PERLBREW_PATH PERLBREW_PERL PERLBREW_ROOT PERLBREW_VERSION PWD SHELL SHLVL TERM USER _␤»
FROGGS lizmat: that is pretty cool
donaldh Also, no point in specialness on JVM.
FROGGS I'm eager to see the module smoke results
donaldh I assume it's special because it's maintaining parrot's env ?
or other reasons?
lizmat for one, it only installs proxies for the keys addad after the env is read 21:10
jnthn would probably know more 21:11
but it looks like the enviter is not updated by the proxy 21:12
otoh, I could be talking out of the side of my neck
jnthn The Env thing on Parrot is actually not a normal Hash, but rather an Env PMC. Shoving stuff in it should update the environment. 21:13
I think that's why the proxy. To update that.
lizmat r: say %*ENV<HOME>; %*ENV.delete("HOME"); say %*ENV<HOME>; say %*ENV.keys.grep( { m/HOME/ } ) 21:15
camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval␤(Any)␤PERLBREW_HOME HOME␤»
lizmat delete also doesn't remove it from keys
TimToady doesn't seem like the right strategy for JVM, if JVM considers env immutable; we'd need something more like our own %*ENV that gets passed to exec at the last moment
lizmat so apparently changes to %*ENV are not propagates to .keys / .values on %*ENV 21:16
although the changes *are* carried out
TimToady in any case, "my %*ENV" is a different variable, and making all these variables proxy to PROCESS::<%ENV> is gonna go terribly wrong 21:17
lizmat is tired and sad, sleep& 21:18
FROGGS lizmat: sleep well
timotimo Stage parse : 653.470 21:21
time for sleep :|
FROGGS gnight
dalek : 9d6ae74 | (Tobias Leich)++ | STATUS.md:
status update (new nqp+rakudo revision)
 21:27
: 9e01b03 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
status update after nqp/rakudo update
21:28 abnorman left
FROGGS gnight @all 21:28
donaldh No registered operation handler for 'sprintfdirectives' 21:31
we don't seem to have a sprintfdirectives on JVM
FROGGS ohh
true
hold on
dalek p: 0e552b1 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
added nqp::sprintfdirectives for jvm backend, donaldh++
 21:34
donaldh thx FROGGS++ 21:35
dalek kudo/nom: 9fcbf53 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
update nqp revision
21:38 kbaker left
donaldh for %*ENV.keys -> $x { %*ENV.delete($x) }; say +%*ENV; say +%*ENV.keys; say +%*ENV.values 21:42
r: for %*ENV.keys -> $x { %*ENV.delete($x) }; say +%*ENV; say +%*ENV.keys; say +%*ENV.values
camelia rakudo 44ba8a: OUTPUT«23␤23␤23␤»
21:43 abnorman joined
donaldh r: for %*ENV.keys -> $x { %*ENV.delete($x) }; for %*ENV.keys -> $x { say %*ENV<$x> } 21:45
camelia rakudo 44ba8a: OUTPUT«(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤»
TimToady thinks in the P6 model, PROCESS::<%*ENV> should be considere immutable, and you set "temp %*ENV" to have a local environment that your children (dynamic and exec) will inherit 21:51
PROCESS<%*ENV> can be shared by different interpreters with different GLOBAL packages, so at minimum, to preserve sanity in something like an apache setup, we should copy PROCESS::<%*ENV> to GLOBAL::<%*ENV> before we modify it 21:52
but "temp %*ENV" already makes a dynamically scoped copy, so that's probably good enough 21:53
so I suspect PROCESS::<%*ENV> should throw an exception if you try to modify it in place 21:54
note that S02:3010 allows implementations to provide writeable PROCESS variables, but I don't think %*ENV should be one of them 21:56
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#line_3010
TimToady $*PID isn't writeable either... 21:57
donaldh: does this make sense to you? 21:58
21:59 araujo joined
donaldh TimToady: yes. immutable++ 21:59
TimToady at least, the top one
dynamic %*ENV can be mutable, maybe 22:00
but those will be invisible to calls into Java, unless the interface allows passing a new env
s/Java/JVM/ 22:01
donaldh > { temp %*ENV = (); shell('env') } 22:03
PWD=/Users/donaldh/git/rakudo 22:04
SHLVL=1
_=/usr/bin/env
TimToady masak: calls to .fmt are self-clocking, and don't have to maintain lockstep the way sprintf does; therefore a little more dwimmery is appropriate there, and it is a rather trivial piece of dwimmery at that, with very little wat
donaldh: yeah, that should propagate the new env down to shell()
donaldh TimToady: it does, on my branch ;-) 22:05
TimToady \o/; this is probably the only sane way to do business on some VMs such as the JVM
donaldh I think it's the sane way to do business on parrot too, IMHO. 22:06
masak TimToady: hm. I don't think I can see the playing field clearly. need to mull over it.
22:06 zwut00 left
TimToady I was originally of your opinion, and changed my mind, if that helps at all :) 22:07
TimToady hates it when people say that, to be fair... :) 22:08
22:08 denis_boyun joined, FROGGS left
donaldh :) 22:08
22:10 bbkr__ joined 22:13 spider-mario left
masak TimToady: hehe. 22:17
22:17 FROGGS joined, jnap left
masak TimToady: well, I don't have time to change my opinion right now, because I'mma sleep. 22:17
'night, #perl6
donaldh 'night masak o/
22:18 dmol left
TimToady o/ 22:18
22:18 jnap joined 22:23 cbk joined
dalek p/shell-rework: f437682 | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/ (3 files):
Add nqp::shell3 that takes and %env. Remove previous attempt at env.
 22:25
p/shell-rework: e3ef857 | (Donald Hunter)++ | / (5 files):
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/nqp into shell-rework
p/shell-rework: 6aea459 | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/nqp into shell-rework
22:26 denis_boyun left 22:28 FROGGS left, benabik left
donaldh Okay to merge github.com/perl6/nqp/pull/112 ? 22:30
jnthn donaldh: +1 22:31
Provided it builds ;)
22:31 PacoAir left
donaldh jnthn: I am experimenting with removing the %*ENV specialness on JVM. Everything seems saner. 22:34
jnthn \o/
donaldh did you see that TimToady is leaning towards immutability of PROCESS::<%*ENV> 22:35
dalek p: f437682 | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/ (3 files):
Add nqp::shell3 that takes and %env. Remove previous attempt at env.
 22:36
p: e3ef857 | (Donald Hunter)++ | / (5 files):
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/nqp into shell-rework
p: 6aea459 | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/nqp into shell-rework
p: 4a311ef | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/ (3 files):
Merge pull request #112 from perl6/shell-rework

Add nqp::shell($cmd, $dir, %env) op and support existing nqp::shell($cmd) until rakudo catches up
donaldh > { temp $*CWD = '/'; shell('pwd'); }; shell('pwd') 22:44
TimToady otoh, see recently specced chdir/visitdir functions 22:48
though visitdir might be a macro that desugars to temp $*CWD 22:49
Fry's & 22:50
22:50 Mouq joined 22:55 Mouq left
donaldh github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/196 22:59
sleep& 23:03
23:04 donaldh left
avuserow thinks donaldh++'s "immutable++" seems like an autopun 23:07
23:15 BenGoldberg joined
BenGoldberg Good evening 23:15
jnthn 'night, #perl6 23:18
23:28 lichtkind joined 23:29 lichtkind_ joined, lichtkind_ is now known as licjtkind
licjtkind TimToady: you where involved into what jonathan presentd in kiev? 23:30
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