»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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TimToady I feel good now, forgetting preflex can handle messages too--in fact, the more I forget, the better I feel! :) 00:21
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dalek ecs: eb0f216 | larry++ | S04-control.pod:
unspec statement_prefix:lift

This is going away in favor of better parameter declarations that can implicitly default to operators as seen by the caller.
colomon hmmm 01:17
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dalek ecs: f597d20 | larry++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
Scheduler refinements/defilements

Renamed basic scheduler method to .cue Combined various other scheduler methods to use named parameters instead Added :at($instant) for a way to specify an absolute time Removed .outstanding because... Added .loads to give info on how many cues are in delayed/startable/running states
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dalek ecs: bd42b63 | larry++ | S17-concurrency.pod:

Broken promises don't have causes, they have excuses. :)
  (Plus .excuse is the same length as .result for better alignment, fwiw.)
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dalek rl6-roast-data: ac8e517 | coke++ | / (5 files):
today (automated commit)
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dalek ecs: 7b9010f | larry++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
Conjectures, s/keeper/vow/ to stay non-commital

Speculations in some spots that could have better syntax.
The word "keeper" kind of implies you're going to keep the promise, when in fact you might break it. To avoid this overtone, as well as other unfortunate meanings of "keeper" ("Yep, he's a keeper!"), we rename the internal stewardship of the promise to "vow".
timotimo oh! i thought that one was a keeper ... 03:05
lue I wonder if TimToady has thought about the design of Perl 6 today. 03:06
[Coke] good evening, you perl people 03:07
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TimToady also, I dislike resurrecting the verb "select" when we've just taken out and shot the two forms of "select" from Perl 5... 03:12
lue: no design, just a lot of opinions :) 03:13
lue slowly backs out of TimToady's office, "select/case" proposal in hand :) 03:14
TimToady is not against the concept, just the specific word :)
it's really a kind of race, except we've used that word already 03:16
well, the second form isn't a race, in the sense that it only looks to see if you already have a winner 03:17
it's really a declaration of who is racing, so maybe "racers {...}" or some such 03:20
or "racing {...}" to imply that a race is actually being run, with "racer" declarations inside like "when" statements, so that we can go back to ending cases with } rather than }, 03:23
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lue should read S17 and see what -Ofun naming suggestions he comes up with. 03:26
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lue TimToady: I think I'd like racing { track { } } or racing { contestant { } } or somesuch instead of racing { racer { } }, if only to avoid too-similar names. 03:27
TimToady at the moment I have winner { when $p1 {... } } 03:30
geekosaur gate? 03:32
that is, racing / gate
raiph why is it schedule.cue but promise.start (not promise.cue)?
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TimToady because a cue is at some point in time, but start means "asap" 03:36
to look at it another way, the scheduler actually will start the closure when a thread becomes available to attach it to, while the promise is notionally scheduled immediately (though of course there could be delay in doing that) 03:38
and .start sounds more impatient than .cue, which I think is appropriate for the two pragmatic contexts 03:39
and .cue is really kinda short for .cue-this-when-you-feel-it's-appropriate-to 03:40
really, .schedule-a-cue :) 03:41
but it works well with the modifiers: "cue this in 10 seconds" 03:42
also, there's the cue/queue pun that jnthn++ likes
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BenGoldberg Looking at S17-concurrency, it seems to me that in addition to $promise.then(&code) which fires code if the promies is either kept or broken, we might want $promise.then(&when_kept,&when_broken), which fires either of two subs when the promise is kept or broken. It might even be a good idea to offer $promise.kept(&code) and $promise.broken(&code) 03:46
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raiph TimToady: thanks 03:49
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.oO( $promise.I-guess-SOME-PEOPLE-just-don't-understand-the-value-of-keeping-promises(&code) )
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geekosaur promise-cuous 03:59
(or maybe promise-cue-ous and you need to remind it?) 04:00
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TimToady BenGoldberg: yes, that's one approach I'm considering 04:08
dalek ecs: f0f514e | larry++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
Spec a statement-level construct for racing things
benabik Most promise/then APIs I'm aware of cascade failures. If $a fails, then $a.then() also fails. 04:11
(As .then generally itself returns a failure. 04:12
Future. Promise. Whatever.
TimToady I can see variants where each then has its own failure, and variants where you want a single failure handler for the whole cascade
for logic operators we defined both 'andthen' and 'orelse', and leave it up to the user to parenthesize :) 04:13
given those are thunky, maybe there's some way to unify them 04:14
benabik If you have $b = $a.then(&pass, &fail), then what does $b represent? Does it get the return value of &fail as a success if $a fails?
lue r: sub infix:<∃>(&a, &b) { &a for &b }; say $_ ∃ ^10 04:15
camelia rakudo-jvm 882e33: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 215ba6: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '&a'; expected Callable but got Nil instead␤ in sub infix:<∃> at /tmp/ZHVMkkw0kA:1␤ in block at /tmp/ZHVMkkw0kA:1␤ in any at /tmp/ZHVMkkw0kA:1␤ in any at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1146␤ in an…»
lue r: sub infix:<∃>(&a, &b) { &a for &b }; -> {say $_} ∃ ^10
camelia rakudo-jvm 882e33: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 215ba6: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '&b'; expected Callable but got Range instead␤ in sub infix:<∃> at /tmp/I9XNE3LZL3:1␤ in block at /tmp/I9XNE3LZL3:1␤ in any at /tmp/I9XNE3LZL3:1␤ in any at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1146␤ in …»
TimToady benabik: dunno, getting into semi-predicate problems there...I suspect a lot of folks will just want to program the success path and let the failure path throw automatically in a 'use fatal' sort of way 04:19
dalek ecs: e17c32f | larry++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
missed some Subscribables -> Supply
timotimo supply? as in supply and demand? 04:26
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TimToady had probably better let those changes settle a bit before proposing better syntax for "on" and such 04:26
supply as in "water supply", or some stronger substance
timotimo guys, are you serious? i think it's time to name Grammar and Actions into Interpretation and Meaning or something
lestrrat :w 04:27
sorry, typo.
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TimToady timotimo: what, lengthen those names to make up for shortening names like Subscribable? :) 04:29
timotimo it's called an "ecosystem" and if you don't keep it in balance, you're killing the rainforest.
rainforest.perl6.org. i kinda like that
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TimToady jungle.perl6.org would be shorter :) 04:30
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timotimo okay, and we call the local database "knees" 04:30
you know, because it's "welcome to the jungle watch it bring you to your knees"?
i think i'm trying too hard
TimToady but we also are trying to keep the concepts far enough apart that names can develop from merely descripting into "proper names" where that's appropriate 04:32
this is the main reason "roast" is called "roast" and not "spectests" :)
well, that, and tab completion :)
timotimo .o( it's roasting implementors in implementor hell? ) 04:33
TimToady that too :)
and roasting the implementions till they're yummy
English is a big language with lots of concepts, and there's really little reason to stick to overly descriptive CS-y names when we can latch onto a solid metaphor and make it stick 04:35
to mix a few sticky metaphors...
timotimo that sounds like a very -Ofun thing to say :)
TimToady well, it's certainly a fun thing to do 04:36
TimToady notes with pleasure that our choice of the concept "roles" has caught on in the Perl 5 world as well as in Perl 6
because that's what roles are in the real world: generic more-or-less immutable parts ("Hamlet") that are instanciated by mutable actors 04:40
perigrin hides MX::RoleParameterized from TimToady
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TimToady s/Parameterized/Cast/ :) 04:42
well, not really...
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TimToady the part isn't cast till a class gets hold of it 04:43
.oO(obviously an acting class)
TimToady had better wander off and find something else to screw up instead of S17 :) 04:44
perigrin heh 04:45
class Cumberbatch is Actor { ... } 04:46
lue I can't help but wonder if a Key object would be useful alongside Lock objects. 04:52
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lue (likely not) 04:52
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TimToady rosettacode.org/wiki/Function_frequency#Perl_6 07:45
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TimToady is slightly interested in why QAST lists each function call twice... 07:51
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moritz TimToady: related to sink context (more) 07:57
basically each statement is emitted as want_sink ?? sink(statement) !! statement
(so QAST::Want(statement, 'v', sink(statement)) or something along these lines) 07:58
and at the time the QAST is dumped, that decision isn't made yet
TimToady thanks 07:59
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dalek p: 89cc08f | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/ (4 files):
CArray REPR on JVM, with supporting int and num.
arnsholt Bah, braino in the commit message. Oh well, nothing to do 'bout it now =)
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mathw best to spot those before you push :) 08:40
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hoelzro o/ #perl6 08:56
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hoelzro so I was thinking about Perl 6 and getting people to contribute last night... 09:03
...and I thought it would be cool if we had something like this: www.whatcanidoformozilla.org/
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moritz hoelzro: feel free to create a perl6.org/contribute/ page or so 09:10
hoelzro I just might do that =)
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hoelzro I just need to come up with a list of tasks/categories/whatever 09:11
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kresike hello all you happy perl6 people 09:35
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hoelzro ahoy kresike ! 09:36
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jaffa4 hi all 10:23
Hoq do I merge a hash and key value pair?
moritz jaffa4: what have you tried? 10:25
jaffa4 @tokens[*-1][0] ~ :wcp 10:26
r: say :a ~: b
camelia rakudo-jvm 882e33: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 10:27
..rakudo-parrot 215ba6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/ZyxA7E5bD0␤Bogus statement␤at /tmp/ZyxA7E5bD0:1␤------> say :a ~⏏: b␤ expecting any of:␤ pair value␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ inf…»
moritz ~ is for string concatenation
jaffa4 r: say :a,: b
moritz how do you add keys and values to a hash?
camelia rakudo-jvm 882e33: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 215ba6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/AQf12_sZ1q␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/AQf12_sZ1q:1␤------> say :a,⏏: b␤ expecting any of:␤ pair value␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ i…»
jaffa4 it is not a hash, reference to hash
r: (:o).perl 10:28
camelia rakudo-jvm 882e33: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
( no output )
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jaffa4 moritz: tokens[*-1][0]}.push(:wcp) 10:41
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Tiggez Hi, I just wanted to give Perl6 a try... correct me if i'm wrong, but there are no bindings to any GUI nor to any major database? 11:25
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hoelzro there are bindings to MySQL, SQLite, and PostgreSQL 11:26
I played with the idea of creating bindings to GTK a while ago, but I haven't gotten a round to it 11:27
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Tiggez cool thanks, i will give it a try 11:27
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[Coke] waves, briefly. 12:51
colomon o/ 12:53
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[Coke] ༽o༼ 13:15
colomon very long arms? 13:16
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colomon martini glass with olive? 13:16
[Coke] vampire?
daxim anus shades 13:17
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dalek ecs: 9cfcf5a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
Some more s/Subscribable/Supply/
[Coke] I do wonder why ⑻ exists. seems like we could have avoided that one.
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[Coke] rp: ('⚀'..'⚅').roll(3); 13:20
camelia ( no output )
[Coke] rp: ('⚀'..'⚅').roll(3).say;
camelia rakudo-parrot 215ba6: OUTPUT«⚀ ⚀ ⚃␤»
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[Coke] ~~ 13:22
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pdurbin perl 6 mentioned: programmingisterrible.com/post/6589...ode-broken 13:24
nwc10 Likely his expressed opinion are reasonably representitive of an end-user developer viewpoint, but 13:30
daxim cpan stagnation? that's news to me 13:31
nwc10 I see no route that gets from a "call" for a "Perl 5 rewrite" to a finished project
and I'd love to see his objective numbers on Python 3 takeup 13:32
daxim python3wos.appspot.com/ 13:33
users or libraries?
nwc10 daxim: users. I'm well aware that that's now "Wall of Superpowers" 13:34
once Andrea has upgraded her machine, I'll be able to get a sane idea about Python 3 packags on ubutu again
but it was "very few"
even Guido thinks that Python 2 is better for new users: mail.python.org/pipermail/python-d...29031.html 13:35
daxim codacademy teaches python 2 13:40
nwc10 but not Python 3: help.codecademy.com/customer/portal...hon-2-7-3- 13:41
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lizmat commute to Amsterdam& 13:56
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moritz ok, there's a mail on p6l about the license of roast and specs 14:25
I'm pretty sure roast should get artistic license 2.0, just like rakudo and nqp (and pugs, iirc, from which repository it comes from) 14:26
any objections to me adding an AL2 LICENSE file to roast?
FROGGS none from me
colomon +1
geekosaur sounds sensible to me
colomon had always assumed that's what it was under. 14:27
moritz too
regarding the specs: I'm not sure if AL2 is a good fit for documents 14:28
so I won't take action in that area
dalek ast: b213c5a | moritz++ | LICENSE:
Add Artistic License 2

The test suite comes originally from the Pugs repository, which used Artistic License 2 by default, and community concensus seems to agree.
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colomon +1 on thinking about the documents. 14:29
surely they should be free to copy.
moritz yes
colomon but freedom to make changes to them seems kind of weird.
moritz the question if whether they should have a "rename if you fork" clause
colomon "I'm going to fork the perl 6 spec"
.oO( Well, it's been knifed at least once... )
geekosaur ...how do you fork a liquid?... 14:32
colomon \o/ # finally got my $work program to link again
anocelot \o/ (Similar happiness/situation on my end, fwiw.) 14:35
moritz geekosaur: with a very broad fork, of course :-) 14:37
geekosaur as for forking the specs, I think the only constraint is that the result is not calling itself STD?
moritz best we wait for Larry's opinion on that 14:38
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dalek p: f7e7e7f | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTOperationsMAST.nqp:
FROGGS prove -v -e nqp-p t/docs/opcodes.t | grep "not ok" | wc -l # 179 issues left 14:46
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lee_ that last commit short hash is a palindrome 14:58
just had to point that out!
moritz lee_++ 14:59
TimToady lee_++_eel 15:02
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TimToady forking a liquid requires a supply and a series of taps 15:17
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perigrin TimToady: if the liquid is already in a stream you just need some tee 15:20
kresike bye all 15:21
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PerlJam you can fork a liquid all you want, but it's much more efficient to use a spoon 15:22
(or freeze the liquid if you must use a fork) 15:23
geekosaur perl 6 spoonerisms?
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dalek p: fd17a3a | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTOperationsMAST.nqp:
mapped [open|nextfile|close]dir

nextfiledir on MoarVM is slightly different from JVM, it does not prepend the foldername we have opened. Though we can cope with it in rakudo.
p: 848c285 | (Tobias Leich)++ | docs/ops.markdown:
document nqp::backendconfig
p: b2836cb | (Tobias Leich)++ | docs/ops.markdown:
strip backslashes
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dalek p: 7cd42ab | (Tobias Leich)++ | t/docs/opcodes.t:
consider src/vm/parrot/NQP/Ops.nqp on parrot too
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[Coke] FROGGS++ # opcode doc fixes 16:26
FROGGS :o) 16:27
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dalek p: b840584 | (Tobias Leich)++ | t/docs/opcodes.t:
take jvm's and moar's NQP::Ops into accout
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[Coke] weird, feather just vanished for a bit. 16:37
(looks like it wasn't in DNS briefly)
"we're all fine, here, now. ... How are you?" 16:39
[Coke] -> again
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diakopter daxim: cpan stagnation? the rate of cpan's growth has been decreasing for a long time, whereas the rate of growth of all the other languages' central library archives/repos has been increasing 17:05
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japhb__ diakopter: That could be explained by CPAN supplying the majority of user's day-to-day needs. Running out of itches to scratch that aren't either very niche or very hard. 17:09
anocelot Not to mention helpful core updates. 17:10
tadzik the reason why I started contributing to Perl 6 was actually the fact that I couldn't think of any way to contribute to Perl 5: everything I could think of was there
jeffreykegler For me, the value of CPAN is really in CPANtesters .... 17:11
diakopter that might be accurate, except the sizes of nearly all the other languages' central library archives/repos are dramatically bigger than cpan's
jeffreykegler That is, the metric to use is the number of *tested* distributions.
diakopter so it's kindof hard to imagine that cpan is more comprehensive, when it's dwarfed by the others
FROGGS diakopter: maybe bigger because there is more crap in there :o)
anocelot Size of code base or numbers of entries?
tadzik ever tried to use python profilers? :D
diakopter anocelot: both 17:12
anocelot: but mostly number of distributions
jeffreykegler ... and I believe no other repository even attempts the kind of testing done at anything like that volume level
Without testing, a repository is just a place you cn upload to and that's a lot easier to do, but a lot less useful. 17:14
japhb__ An interesting (but very time consuming and difficult to do in an unbiased manner) study would be to compare the problem spaces covered by the various repositories. 17:16
diakopter japhb__: like 11 distributions on cpan (updated in the past 3 years) mention Mongo in their names, whereas Java's Maven central repo has 309 (as of a few months ago)
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diakopter FROGGS: if only that was the case.. somehow I'd think the portion of crap is not all that much different between all of them, except perhaps Hackaga, which is very well groomed (and perhaps Nuget, and perhaps to a lesser extent, npm) 17:19
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diakopter er, *Hackage 17:20
(but Nuget and npm mostly because they're so new)
FROGGS diakopter: well, I guess cpan is really smaller than the others... but it still offers all what I need, really 17:21
dinner &
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diakopter has belatedly realized that realism is a better motivator than pusillanimous whimsicality 17:23
[.. and alarmism]
PerlJam greetings Perl people 17:26
moritz diakopter: there is also a large part defensism going on, people battling the idea "perl is dead" so hard that they don't realize it could be more alive 17:29
diakopter I think it's skating dangerously close to the technicality tendency of that usage 17:30
moritz close 17:31
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moritz there's already a /ly <.wb>/ before it :-) 17:32
diakopter yeah but adverbs can modify adverbs 17:33
jeffreykegler Perl 5 remains unexcelled as an infrastructure within which to develop a volunteer open-source project, as far as I can tell ...
and I'd be grateful if someone convinced me otherwise, because then I would switch 17:34
PerlJam BTW folks ... 25 days until advent 17:36
tadzik good catch; time to start planning 17:38
diakopter okay, this can't be right 17:39
dalek : bdb90e9 | duff++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/ (2 files):
Start of advent 2013 planning
diakopter (work thing emitting 549,000 files when it should be emitting only 1 17:40
moritz PerlJam++
diakopter well, the Advent of Advent Season, anyway
PerlJam diakopter: Got any topics you'd like to cover this advent season? :) 17:41
moritz diakopter should blog about MoarVM
diakopter assesses that to be a very good question
PerlJam moritz: you can read my mind! ;)
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dalek : 37e80c4 | tadzik++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/topic-brainstorming:
Remove topic done last year
arnsholt Are we planning a Star release for November?
moritz arnsholt: which collective "we" are you talking about? :-)
PerlJam moritz: have you been the lone Star release manager? I can only remember you doing releases.
diakopter PerlJam: I'm still of the perspective that it should remain hidden under a bushel until it reaches criticality, or singularity... whichever comes first 17:43
arnsholt s/we/you/ # If you prefer ;)
Or in the passive perhaps: Is a November Star release planned? =)
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moritz PerlJam: lue++ has done last month's star release 17:43
PerlJam: and I'd like it if others took up that task too
arnsholt Anyways, the reason I'm asking is NativeCall on JVM
PerlJam diakopter: agreed. 17:44
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moritz though maybe this month's star release could be a tad tricky, since the build system changed 17:44
so I might do it again this month
PerlJam moritz: Where do people sign up to do R* releases?
diakopter thinks someone could automate/script the release much more than it is.., but that someone is not I, because I don't have the requisite scripting skillz
arnsholt So that I can try to manage my tuit supply a bit actively, to maybe get NativeCall done for Star-time 17:45
moritz PerlJam: I'd say in star's tools/star/release-guide.pod
PerlJam ah. (in the other repos, that's in docs)
moritz arnsholt: so yes, if all goes well, there'll be star release this month too
PerlJam: I know; It's a bit weird, because docs/ in star is actually included in the tar ball
tadzik idea: we need a set of modules, possibly with a maintainers crew, to maintain a rock-solid implementations of things that we need, and of which the current implementations are very fragile
diakopter it would be nice if an account on some server somewhere had all the required credentials and web service calls or whatever scripted and ready to go so someone could type make star-release and it does its thing 17:46
tadzik (LWP, HTTP servers etc)
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PerlJam oh, right. I forgot R* repo was weird that way 17:46
diakopter b/c it seems the process is already formalized enough with the release guide
PerlJam tadzik: and a CI-thingy to tell us when they break :) 17:47
tadzik PerlJam: yeah, poke us on the channeu
one of the things about those modules is that they rely on sockets, which are 1) a bit of a moving target 2) tricky to test (esp. if you're a server)
arnsholt moritz: Cool. Roughly when do you expect it to be? 25th-ish? 17:48
diakopter what I'm imagining is the release script could issue its blocking errors to #perl6 when it reaches them...
moritz arnsholt: sounds plausible-ish :-)
arnsholt Excellent-ish 17:49
I think that might be reasonable(-ish) for NativeCall on JVM
moritz possibly sooner, since Rakudo release is already on the 22nd, but we can delay if necessary
PerlJam arnsholt: nice!
arnsholt 'Cept my target really is the 22nd, now that I think about it, since the relevant code actually lives in NQP
moritz 'cept for the code in NativeCall.pm 17:51
diakopter I kinda think it should be in nqp 17:52
arnsholt The code in NativeCall.pm is just porcelain, to use git terminology 17:53
The real work is all implemented in NQP
japhb__ jnthn: @concurrency_wishes.push('API "works" in rakudo-parrot, but just uses the single-threaded scheduler instead', 'Provide a spec-approved way to test if the implementation will run single-threaded'); 17:54
retupmoca somewhat related question: iirc, common lisp had a *FEATURES* global variable that was an array of enabled features (threading, sockets, etc.) 17:56
does perl6 have a $*FEATURES variable or somesuch? 17:57
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japhb__ Don't think so, unless you look at $*VM. 17:57
FROGGS retupmoca: we don't keep track of enabled/implemented/available features (yet) 17:58
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PerlJam Those things strike me as being roles on the perl6 instance. WE'd just need to spec the appropriate names and behaviors 17:59
FROGGS because the main goal is that all backends on all platforms support everything
japhb__ Right now my test for concurrency actually checks if ::('Thread') ~~ Failure;
PerlJam "just" :)
arnsholt japhb__: Oooh, that's a really neat idiom! 18:00
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retupmoca ah, here we go: *features* contains ( [...] :GENCGC :IEEE-FLOATING-POINT :INLINE-CONSTANTS :LARGEFILE :LINKAGE-TABLE :LINUX :LITTLE-ENDIAN 18:01
and such
(in common lisp)
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retupmoca I don't need it (at least right now), but it seems like a nice feature 18:02
arnsholt Yeah, it's probably a good feature to keep in mind
Common Lisp is a neat language, in general. Just a shame the syntax is such a pain ^_^ 18:04
retupmoca I like a lot of what it has, I just generally don't enjoy coding in it. 18:05
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arnsholt I haven't used it much, but I end up a bit ambivalent about it 18:08
On the one hand there's much cool stuff (loop is ridiculously powerful, for example), but sometimes it's really annoying as well
The impedance mismatch of Lisps assuming that everyone works in Emacs is a contributing factor as well, I must admit
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hoelzro $obj.method: $foo, $bar, $baz is bsaically $obj.method($foo, $bar, $baz), right? 18:26
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jnthn right 18:30
arnsholt: A NativeCall on JVM for this month would rock. Especially if it handles what DBIish needs :)
arnsholt Yeah, I'd love to get that done 18:31
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jnthn Grrr...$dayjob stole my Perl 6 day next week as well as this week :/ 18:31
arnsholt I've gotten the basic CArray stuff done now, and I hope the rest of CArray will follow soon-ish
Then it's back to pondering for a while, to figure out CStruct 18:32
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japhb__ jnthn: Awww, that bites. 18:45
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tadzik .tell Mouq I've only just noticed your rakudobrew pull requests, dunno why I didn't get memo on them before. Thanks, much appreciated! 18:49
...shouldn't that work?
jnthn Gah, next week is 4 days of teaching spread over 3 cities and 2 countries 18:50
tadzik ,tell Mouq I've only just noticed your rakudobrew pull requests, dunno why I didn't get memo on them before. Thanks, much appreciated!
jnthn saturates his schedule with Perl 6 time in the week after it...
tadzik: preflex will send messages
tadzik: yoleaux lived up to its name... 18:51
tadzik hah
preflex: help
preflex try 'help help' or see 'list' for available commands
tadzik preflex: list
preflex Botsnack: [botsnack]; Cdecl: [cdecl]; 8ball: [8ball]; excuses: [excuse]; Factoid: [+, -, ., ?, delete, get, store]; Help: [help, list]; Karma: [++, --, karma, karmabot, karmatop]; Nickometer: [nickometer]; Nickr: [nickr]; PlokiRE: [re]; Seen: [seen]; Sixst: [6st, ordinal]; Tell: [ask, clear-messages, messages, tell]; Rot13: [rot13]; Quote: [be, quote, remember]; WCalc: [calc, wcalc]; Version:
[version]; XSeen: [xseen]; ZCode: [zdec, zenc]
tadzik preflex: tell Mouq I've only just noticed your rakudobrew pull requests, dunno why I didn't get memo on them before. Thanks, much appreciated! 18:52
preflex Consider it noted.
tadzik yay
xalbo The documentation of the anyof combinator on promises seems wrong. Specifically, the part that says "If the first promise to produce a result is instead broken, then the resulting Promise is also broken. The excuse is passed along. " 18:54
TimToady in what way do you think it is wrong? 18:55
it's not testing for success, it's testing for a result 18:56
moritz that doesn't sound like 'anyof', rather 'firstof' 18:57
TimToady yes, it's winner-take-all semantics 18:58
(which is why the other construct is currently named "winner")
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xalbo Then the text "The anyof combinator creates a Promise that is kept whenever any of the specified Promises are kept. " threw me off. I read that as saying that *if* any of them is kept, the result is kept. 19:00
TimToady doesn't think that was the intent, but admits it's unclear
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TimToady junctional notions in the time domain come out a little funny, especially when overlaid with succeed/fail semantics 19:01
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TimToady the as-yet unimplemented race primitive is supposed to let everyone finish in whatever order they come in, like a marathon. anyof and winner are more like match-play golf, where as soon as the winner is determined, the other person goes home and doesn't finish 19:03
anyway, all these names are still negotiable 19:04
xalbo Right, but I was assuming that anyof still waited for at least one person to cross the finish line. As I read it now, if anyone is disqualified before the first person wins, the whole race is called off.
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TimToady perhaps we need to spec a way to distinguish those cases, other than hand-coding a loop 19:05
one can see the argument that a broken promise is very near to a blow-up-the-rocket exception, so cancelling the race isn't so strange 19:06
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TimToady one could also make the other argument that a promise that is broken for a good reason should be relatively easy to retry 19:07
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TimToady STM kinda works like that 19:07
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lue Hello world o/ 19:08
ingy^ TimToady: shortest token match?
TimToady software transactional memory
ingy^ ic 19:09
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dalek p: 901a922 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
mapped op sayfh
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moritz TimToady: sounds like we could have a concurrent grep for finding kept promises, and then the current anyof comibnator would do 19:13
jnthn japhb__: I managed to stack 3 of the up in the week after next and begged that no more than two be stolen or I'll be very very sad. :)
anyof has the same semantics as Task.Any from .Net, that is, if *any* of the promises are kept, it will be. Thus it is kept as soon as one of them is. It doesn't actually care much what happens after that. 19:15
TimToady: I didn't spec it anywhere yet or try it, but at least for subscribables...uh...supplies (?) I'd imagined a .catch(...) 19:16
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tadzik aargh. I was trying to fix a pandabug that relied on JSON failing to build, and now when I came up with a possible fix JSON builds correctly again 19:17
jnthn I agree that with anyof/allof you might not care about whether a promise was kept/broken, just that one or all of them came to a result. 19:18