»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend! Set by sorear on 25 June 2013. |
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TimToady | I feel good now, forgetting preflex can handle messages too--in fact, the more I forget, the better I feel! :) | 00:21 | |
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dalek | ecs: eb0f216 | larry++ | S04-control.pod: unspec statement_prefix:lift This is going away in favor of better parameter declarations that can implicitly default to operators as seen by the caller. |
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colomon | hmmm | 01:17 | |
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dalek | ecs: f597d20 | larry++ | S17-concurrency.pod: Scheduler refinements/defilements Renamed basic scheduler method to .cue Combined various other scheduler methods to use named parameters instead Added :at($instant) for a way to specify an absolute time Removed .outstanding because... Added .loads to give info on how many cues are in delayed/startable/running states |
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dalek | ecs: bd42b63 | larry++ | S17-concurrency.pod: s/cause/excuse/ Broken promises don't have causes, they have excuses. :) (Plus .excuse is the same length as .result for better alignment, fwiw.) |
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dalek | rl6-roast-data: ac8e517 | coke++ | / (5 files): today (automated commit) |
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dalek | ecs: 7b9010f | larry++ | S17-concurrency.pod: Conjectures, s/keeper/vow/ to stay non-commital Speculations in some spots that could have better syntax. The word "keeper" kind of implies you're going to keep the promise, when in fact you might break it. To avoid this overtone, as well as other unfortunate meanings of "keeper" ("Yep, he's a keeper!"), we rename the internal stewardship of the promise to "vow". |
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timotimo | oh! i thought that one was a keeper ... | 03:05 | |
lue | I wonder if TimToady has thought about the design of Perl 6 today. | 03:06 | |
[Coke] | good evening, you perl people | 03:07 | |
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TimToady | also, I dislike resurrecting the verb "select" when we've just taken out and shot the two forms of "select" from Perl 5... | 03:12 | |
lue: no design, just a lot of opinions :) | 03:13 | ||
lue slowly backs out of TimToady's office, "select/case" proposal in hand :) | 03:14 | ||
TimToady is not against the concept, just the specific word :) | |||
it's really a kind of race, except we've used that word already | 03:16 | ||
well, the second form isn't a race, in the sense that it only looks to see if you already have a winner | 03:17 | ||
it's really a declaration of who is racing, so maybe "racers {...}" or some such | 03:20 | ||
or "racing {...}" to imply that a race is actually being run, with "racer" declarations inside like "when" statements, so that we can go back to ending cases with } rather than }, | 03:23 | ||
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lue should read S17 and see what -Ofun naming suggestions he comes up with. | 03:26 | ||
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lue | TimToady: I think I'd like racing { track { } } or racing { contestant { } } or somesuch instead of racing { racer { } }, if only to avoid too-similar names. | 03:27 | |
TimToady | at the moment I have winner { when $p1 {... } } | 03:30 | |
geekosaur | gate? | 03:32 | |
that is, racing / gate | |||
raiph | why is it schedule.cue but promise.start (not promise.cue)? | ||
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TimToady | because a cue is at some point in time, but start means "asap" | 03:36 | |
to look at it another way, the scheduler actually will start the closure when a thread becomes available to attach it to, while the promise is notionally scheduled immediately (though of course there could be delay in doing that) | 03:38 | ||
and .start sounds more impatient than .cue, which I think is appropriate for the two pragmatic contexts | 03:39 | ||
and .cue is really kinda short for .cue-this-when-you-feel-it's-appropriate-to | 03:40 | ||
really, .schedule-a-cue :) | 03:41 | ||
but it works well with the modifiers: "cue this in 10 seconds" | 03:42 | ||
also, there's the cue/queue pun that jnthn++ likes | |||
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BenGoldberg | Looking at S17-concurrency, it seems to me that in addition to $promise.then(&code) which fires code if the promies is either kept or broken, we might want $promise.then(&when_kept,&when_broken), which fires either of two subs when the promise is kept or broken. It might even be a good idea to offer $promise.kept(&code) and $promise.broken(&code) | 03:46 | |
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raiph | TimToady: thanks | 03:49 | |
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lue | .oO( $promise.I-guess-SOME-PEOPLE-just-don't-understand-the-value-of-keeping-promises(&code) ) |
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geekosaur | promise-cuous | 03:59 | |
(or maybe promise-cue-ous and you need to remind it?) | 04:00 | ||
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TimToady | BenGoldberg: yes, that's one approach I'm considering | 04:08 | |
dalek | ecs: f0f514e | larry++ | S17-concurrency.pod: Spec a statement-level construct for racing things |
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benabik | Most promise/then APIs I'm aware of cascade failures. If $a fails, then $a.then() also fails. | 04:11 | |
(As .then generally itself returns a failure. | 04:12 | ||
Future. Promise. Whatever. | |||
TimToady | I can see variants where each then has its own failure, and variants where you want a single failure handler for the whole cascade | ||
for logic operators we defined both 'andthen' and 'orelse', and leave it up to the user to parenthesize :) | 04:13 | ||
given those are thunky, maybe there's some way to unify them | 04:14 | ||
benabik | If you have $b = $a.then(&pass, &fail), then what does $b represent? Does it get the return value of &fail as a success if $a fails? | ||
lue | r: sub infix:<∃>(&a, &b) { &a for &b }; say $_ ∃ ^10 | 04:15 | |
camelia | rakudo-jvm 882e33: OUTPUT«(timeout)» | ||
..rakudo-parrot 215ba6: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '&a'; expected Callable but got Nil instead in sub infix:<∃> at /tmp/ZHVMkkw0kA:1 in block at /tmp/ZHVMkkw0kA:1 in any at /tmp/ZHVMkkw0kA:1 in any at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1146 in an…» | |||
lue | r: sub infix:<∃>(&a, &b) { &a for &b }; -> {say $_} ∃ ^10 | ||
camelia | rakudo-jvm 882e33: OUTPUT«(timeout)» | ||
..rakudo-parrot 215ba6: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '&b'; expected Callable but got Range instead in sub infix:<∃> at /tmp/I9XNE3LZL3:1 in block at /tmp/I9XNE3LZL3:1 in any at /tmp/I9XNE3LZL3:1 in any at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1146 in …» | |||
TimToady | benabik: dunno, getting into semi-predicate problems there...I suspect a lot of folks will just want to program the success path and let the failure path throw automatically in a 'use fatal' sort of way | 04:19 | |
dalek | ecs: e17c32f | larry++ | S17-concurrency.pod: missed some Subscribables -> Supply |
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timotimo | supply? as in supply and demand? | 04:26 | |
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TimToady had probably better let those changes settle a bit before proposing better syntax for "on" and such | 04:26 | ||
supply as in "water supply", or some stronger substance | |||
timotimo | guys, are you serious? i think it's time to name Grammar and Actions into Interpretation and Meaning or something | ||
lestrrat | :w | 04:27 | |
sorry, typo. | |||
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TimToady | timotimo: what, lengthen those names to make up for shortening names like Subscribable? :) | 04:29 | |
timotimo | it's called an "ecosystem" and if you don't keep it in balance, you're killing the rainforest. | ||
rainforest.perl6.org. i kinda like that | |||
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TimToady | jungle.perl6.org would be shorter :) | 04:30 | |
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timotimo | okay, and we call the local database "knees" | 04:30 | |
you know, because it's "welcome to the jungle watch it bring you to your knees"? | |||
i think i'm trying too hard | |||
TimToady | but we also are trying to keep the concepts far enough apart that names can develop from merely descripting into "proper names" where that's appropriate | 04:32 | |
this is the main reason "roast" is called "roast" and not "spectests" :) | |||
well, that, and tab completion :) | |||
timotimo | .o( it's roasting implementors in implementor hell? ) | 04:33 | |
TimToady | that too :) | ||
and roasting the implementions till they're yummy | |||
English is a big language with lots of concepts, and there's really little reason to stick to overly descriptive CS-y names when we can latch onto a solid metaphor and make it stick | 04:35 | ||
to mix a few sticky metaphors... | |||
timotimo | that sounds like a very -Ofun thing to say :) | ||
TimToady | well, it's certainly a fun thing to do | 04:36 | |
TimToady notes with pleasure that our choice of the concept "roles" has caught on in the Perl 5 world as well as in Perl 6 | |||
because that's what roles are in the real world: generic more-or-less immutable parts ("Hamlet") that are instanciated by mutable actors | 04:40 | ||
perigrin hides MX::RoleParameterized from TimToady | |||
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TimToady | s/Parameterized/Cast/ :) | 04:42 | |
well, not really... | |||
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TimToady | the part isn't cast till a class gets hold of it | 04:43 | |
.oO(obviously an acting class) |
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TimToady had better wander off and find something else to screw up instead of S17 :) | 04:44 | ||
perigrin | heh | 04:45 | |
class Cumberbatch is Actor { ... } | 04:46 | ||
lue | I can't help but wonder if a Key object would be useful alongside Lock objects. | 04:52 | |
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lue | (likely not) | 04:52 | |
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TimToady | rosettacode.org/wiki/Function_frequency#Perl_6 | 07:45 | |
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TimToady is slightly interested in why QAST lists each function call twice... | 07:51 | ||
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moritz | TimToady: related to sink context (more) | 07:57 | |
basically each statement is emitted as want_sink ?? sink(statement) !! statement | |||
(so QAST::Want(statement, 'v', sink(statement)) or something along these lines) | 07:58 | ||
and at the time the QAST is dumped, that decision isn't made yet | |||
TimToady | thanks | 07:59 | |
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dalek | p: 89cc08f | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/ (4 files): CArray REPR on JVM, with supporting int and num. |
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arnsholt | Bah, braino in the commit message. Oh well, nothing to do 'bout it now =) | ||
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mathw | best to spot those before you push :) | 08:40 | |
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hoelzro | o/ #perl6 | 08:56 | |
! | |||
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hoelzro | so I was thinking about Perl 6 and getting people to contribute last night... | 09:03 | |
...and I thought it would be cool if we had something like this: www.whatcanidoformozilla.org/ | |||
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moritz | hoelzro: feel free to create a perl6.org/contribute/ page or so | 09:10 | |
hoelzro | I just might do that =) | ||
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hoelzro | I just need to come up with a list of tasks/categories/whatever | 09:11 | |
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kresike | hello all you happy perl6 people | 09:35 | |
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hoelzro | ahoy kresike ! | 09:36 | |
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jaffa4 | hi all | 10:23 | |
Hoq do I merge a hash and key value pair? | |||
moritz | jaffa4: what have you tried? | 10:25 | |
jaffa4 | @tokens[*-1][0] ~ :wcp | 10:26 | |
r: say :a ~: b | |||
camelia | rakudo-jvm 882e33: OUTPUT«(timeout)» | 10:27 | |
..rakudo-parrot 215ba6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/ZyxA7E5bD0Bogus statementat /tmp/ZyxA7E5bD0:1------> say :a ~⏏: b expecting any of: pair value postfix infix stopper inf…» | |||
moritz | ~ is for string concatenation | ||
jaffa4 | r: say :a,: b | ||
moritz | how do you add keys and values to a hash? | ||
camelia | rakudo-jvm 882e33: OUTPUT«(timeout)» | ||
..rakudo-parrot 215ba6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/AQf12_sZ1qTwo terms in a rowat /tmp/AQf12_sZ1q:1------> say :a,⏏: b expecting any of: pair value postfix infix stopper i…» | |||
jaffa4 | it is not a hash, reference to hash | ||
r: (:o).perl | 10:28 | ||
camelia | rakudo-jvm 882e33: OUTPUT«(timeout)» | ||
( no output ) | |||
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jaffa4 | moritz: tokens[*-1][0]}.push(:wcp) | 10:41 | |
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Tiggez | Hi, I just wanted to give Perl6 a try... correct me if i'm wrong, but there are no bindings to any GUI nor to any major database? | 11:25 | |
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hoelzro | there are bindings to MySQL, SQLite, and PostgreSQL | 11:26 | |
I played with the idea of creating bindings to GTK a while ago, but I haven't gotten a round to it | 11:27 | ||
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Tiggez | cool thanks, i will give it a try | 11:27 | |
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[Coke] waves, briefly. | 12:51 | ||
colomon | o/ | 12:53 | |
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[Coke] | ༽o༼ | 13:15 | |
colomon | very long arms? | 13:16 | |
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colomon | martini glass with olive? | 13:16 | |
[Coke] | vampire? | ||
daxim | anus shades | 13:17 | |
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dalek | ecs: 9cfcf5a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency.pod: Some more s/Subscribable/Supply/ |
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[Coke] | I do wonder why ⑻ exists. seems like we could have avoided that one. | ||
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[Coke] | rp: ('⚀'..'⚅').roll(3); | 13:20 | |
camelia | ( no output ) | ||
[Coke] | rp: ('⚀'..'⚅').roll(3).say; | ||
camelia | rakudo-parrot 215ba6: OUTPUT«⚀ ⚀ ⚃» | ||
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[Coke] | ~~ | 13:22 | |
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pdurbin | perl 6 mentioned: programmingisterrible.com/post/6589...ode-broken | 13:24 | |
nwc10 | Likely his expressed opinion are reasonably representitive of an end-user developer viewpoint, but | 13:30 | |
daxim | cpan stagnation? that's news to me | 13:31 | |
nwc10 | I see no route that gets from a "call" for a "Perl 5 rewrite" to a finished project | ||
and I'd love to see his objective numbers on Python 3 takeup | 13:32 | ||
daxim | python3wos.appspot.com/ | 13:33 | |
users or libraries? | |||
nwc10 | daxim: users. I'm well aware that that's now "Wall of Superpowers" | 13:34 | |
once Andrea has upgraded her machine, I'll be able to get a sane idea about Python 3 packags on ubutu again | |||
but it was "very few" | |||
even Guido thinks that Python 2 is better for new users: mail.python.org/pipermail/python-d...29031.html | 13:35 | ||
daxim | codacademy teaches python 2 | 13:40 | |
nwc10 | but not Python 3: help.codecademy.com/customer/portal...hon-2-7-3- | 13:41 | |
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lizmat | commute to Amsterdam& | 13:56 | |
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moritz | ok, there's a mail on p6l about the license of roast and specs | 14:25 | |
I'm pretty sure roast should get artistic license 2.0, just like rakudo and nqp (and pugs, iirc, from which repository it comes from) | 14:26 | ||
any objections to me adding an AL2 LICENSE file to roast? | |||
FROGGS | none from me | ||
colomon | +1 | ||
geekosaur | sounds sensible to me | ||
colomon had always assumed that's what it was under. | 14:27 | ||
moritz too | |||
regarding the specs: I'm not sure if AL2 is a good fit for documents | 14:28 | ||
so I won't take action in that area | |||
dalek | ast: b213c5a | moritz++ | LICENSE: Add Artistic License 2 The test suite comes originally from the Pugs repository, which used Artistic License 2 by default, and community concensus seems to agree. |
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colomon | +1 on thinking about the documents. | 14:29 | |
surely they should be free to copy. | |||
moritz | yes | ||
colomon | but freedom to make changes to them seems kind of weird. | ||
moritz | the question if whether they should have a "rename if you fork" clause | ||
colomon | "I'm going to fork the perl 6 spec" | ||
anocelot | .oO( Well, it's been knifed at least once... ) |
14:30 | |
geekosaur | ...how do you fork a liquid?... | 14:32 | |
colomon | \o/ # finally got my $work program to link again | ||
anocelot | \o/ (Similar happiness/situation on my end, fwiw.) | 14:35 | |
moritz | geekosaur: with a very broad fork, of course :-) | 14:37 | |
geekosaur | as for forking the specs, I think the only constraint is that the result is not calling itself STD? | ||
moritz | best we wait for Larry's opinion on that | 14:38 | |
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dalek | p: f7e7e7f | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTOperationsMAST.nqp: s/index_s/indexfrom/ |
14:44 | |
FROGGS | prove -v -e nqp-p t/docs/opcodes.t | grep "not ok" | wc -l # 179 issues left | 14:46 | |
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lee_ | that last commit short hash is a palindrome | 14:58 | |
just had to point that out! | |||
moritz | lee_++ | 14:59 | |
TimToady | lee_++_eel | 15:02 | |
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TimToady | forking a liquid requires a supply and a series of taps | 15:17 | |
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perigrin | TimToady: if the liquid is already in a stream you just need some tee | 15:20 | |
kresike | bye all | 15:21 | |
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PerlJam | you can fork a liquid all you want, but it's much more efficient to use a spoon | 15:22 | |
(or freeze the liquid if you must use a fork) | 15:23 | ||
geekosaur | perl 6 spoonerisms? | ||
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dalek | p: fd17a3a | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTOperationsMAST.nqp: mapped [open|nextfile|close]dir nextfiledir on MoarVM is slightly different from JVM, it does not prepend the foldername we have opened. Though we can cope with it in rakudo. |
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p: 848c285 | (Tobias Leich)++ | docs/ops.markdown: document nqp::backendconfig |
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p: b2836cb | (Tobias Leich)++ | docs/ops.markdown: strip backslashes |
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dalek | p: 7cd42ab | (Tobias Leich)++ | t/docs/opcodes.t: consider src/vm/parrot/NQP/Ops.nqp on parrot too |
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[Coke] | FROGGS++ # opcode doc fixes | 16:26 | |
FROGGS | :o) | 16:27 | |
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dalek | p: b840584 | (Tobias Leich)++ | t/docs/opcodes.t: take jvm's and moar's NQP::Ops into accout |
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[Coke] | weird, feather just vanished for a bit. | 16:37 | |
(looks like it wasn't in DNS briefly) | |||
"we're all fine, here, now. ... How are you?" | 16:39 | ||
[Coke] -> again | |||
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diakopter | daxim: cpan stagnation? the rate of cpan's growth has been decreasing for a long time, whereas the rate of growth of all the other languages' central library archives/repos has been increasing | 17:05 | |
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japhb__ | diakopter: That could be explained by CPAN supplying the majority of user's day-to-day needs. Running out of itches to scratch that aren't either very niche or very hard. | 17:09 | |
anocelot | Not to mention helpful core updates. | 17:10 | |
tadzik | the reason why I started contributing to Perl 6 was actually the fact that I couldn't think of any way to contribute to Perl 5: everything I could think of was there | ||
jeffreykegler | For me, the value of CPAN is really in CPANtesters .... | 17:11 | |
diakopter | that might be accurate, except the sizes of nearly all the other languages' central library archives/repos are dramatically bigger than cpan's | ||
jeffreykegler | That is, the metric to use is the number of *tested* distributions. | ||
diakopter | so it's kindof hard to imagine that cpan is more comprehensive, when it's dwarfed by the others | ||
FROGGS | diakopter: maybe bigger because there is more crap in there :o) | ||
anocelot | Size of code base or numbers of entries? | ||
tadzik | ever tried to use python profilers? :D | ||
diakopter | anocelot: both | 17:12 | |
anocelot: but mostly number of distributions | |||
jeffreykegler | ... and I believe no other repository even attempts the kind of testing done at anything like that volume level | ||
Without testing, a repository is just a place you cn upload to and that's a lot easier to do, but a lot less useful. | 17:14 | ||
japhb__ | An interesting (but very time consuming and difficult to do in an unbiased manner) study would be to compare the problem spaces covered by the various repositories. | 17:16 | |
diakopter | japhb__: like 11 distributions on cpan (updated in the past 3 years) mention Mongo in their names, whereas Java's Maven central repo has 309 (as of a few months ago) | ||
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diakopter | FROGGS: if only that was the case.. somehow I'd think the portion of crap is not all that much different between all of them, except perhaps Hackaga, which is very well groomed (and perhaps Nuget, and perhaps to a lesser extent, npm) | 17:19 | |
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diakopter | er, *Hackage | 17:20 | |
(but Nuget and npm mostly because they're so new) | |||
FROGGS | diakopter: well, I guess cpan is really smaller than the others... but it still offers all what I need, really | 17:21 | |
dinner & | |||
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diakopter has belatedly realized that realism is a better motivator than pusillanimous whimsicality | 17:23 | ||
[.. and alarmism] | |||
PerlJam | greetings Perl people | 17:26 | |
moritz | diakopter: there is also a large part defensism going on, people battling the idea "perl is dead" so hard that they don't realize it could be more alive | 17:29 | |
diakopter | I think it's skating dangerously close to the technicality tendency of that usage | 17:30 | |
*closely? | |||
moritz | close | 17:31 | |
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moritz | there's already a /ly <.wb>/ before it :-) | 17:32 | |
diakopter | yeah but adverbs can modify adverbs | 17:33 | |
jeffreykegler | Perl 5 remains unexcelled as an infrastructure within which to develop a volunteer open-source project, as far as I can tell ... | ||
and I'd be grateful if someone convinced me otherwise, because then I would switch | 17:34 | ||
PerlJam | BTW folks ... 25 days until advent | 17:36 | |
tadzik | good catch; time to start planning | 17:38 | |
diakopter | okay, this can't be right | 17:39 | |
dalek | : bdb90e9 | duff++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/ (2 files): Start of advent 2013 planning |
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diakopter | (work thing emitting 549,000 files when it should be emitting only 1 | 17:40 | |
) | |||
moritz | PerlJam++ | ||
diakopter | well, the Advent of Advent Season, anyway | ||
PerlJam | diakopter: Got any topics you'd like to cover this advent season? :) | 17:41 | |
moritz | diakopter should blog about MoarVM | ||
diakopter assesses that to be a very good question | |||
PerlJam | moritz: you can read my mind! ;) | ||
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dalek | : 37e80c4 | tadzik++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/topic-brainstorming: Remove topic done last year |
17:42 | |
arnsholt | Are we planning a Star release for November? | ||
moritz | arnsholt: which collective "we" are you talking about? :-) | ||
PerlJam | moritz: have you been the lone Star release manager? I can only remember you doing releases. | ||
diakopter | PerlJam: I'm still of the perspective that it should remain hidden under a bushel until it reaches criticality, or singularity... whichever comes first | 17:43 | |
arnsholt | s/we/you/ # If you prefer ;) | ||
Or in the passive perhaps: Is a November Star release planned? =) | |||
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moritz | PerlJam: lue++ has done last month's star release | 17:43 | |
PerlJam: and I'd like it if others took up that task too | |||
arnsholt | Anyways, the reason I'm asking is NativeCall on JVM | ||
PerlJam | diakopter: agreed. | 17:44 | |
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moritz | though maybe this month's star release could be a tad tricky, since the build system changed | 17:44 | |
so I might do it again this month | |||
PerlJam | moritz: Where do people sign up to do R* releases? | ||
diakopter thinks someone could automate/script the release much more than it is.., but that someone is not I, because I don't have the requisite scripting skillz | |||
arnsholt | So that I can try to manage my tuit supply a bit actively, to maybe get NativeCall done for Star-time | 17:45 | |
moritz | PerlJam: I'd say in star's tools/star/release-guide.pod | ||
PerlJam | ah. (in the other repos, that's in docs) | ||
moritz | arnsholt: so yes, if all goes well, there'll be star release this month too | ||
PerlJam: I know; It's a bit weird, because docs/ in star is actually included in the tar ball | |||
tadzik | idea: we need a set of modules, possibly with a maintainers crew, to maintain a rock-solid implementations of things that we need, and of which the current implementations are very fragile | ||
diakopter | it would be nice if an account on some server somewhere had all the required credentials and web service calls or whatever scripted and ready to go so someone could type make star-release and it does its thing | 17:46 | |
tadzik | (LWP, HTTP servers etc) | ||
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PerlJam | oh, right. I forgot R* repo was weird that way | 17:46 | |
diakopter | b/c it seems the process is already formalized enough with the release guide | ||
PerlJam | tadzik: and a CI-thingy to tell us when they break :) | 17:47 | |
tadzik | PerlJam: yeah, poke us on the channeu | ||
one of the things about those modules is that they rely on sockets, which are 1) a bit of a moving target 2) tricky to test (esp. if you're a server) | |||
arnsholt | moritz: Cool. Roughly when do you expect it to be? 25th-ish? | 17:48 | |
diakopter | what I'm imagining is the release script could issue its blocking errors to #perl6 when it reaches them... | ||
moritz | arnsholt: sounds plausible-ish :-) | ||
arnsholt | Excellent-ish | 17:49 | |
I think that might be reasonable(-ish) for NativeCall on JVM | |||
moritz | possibly sooner, since Rakudo release is already on the 22nd, but we can delay if necessary | ||
PerlJam | arnsholt: nice! | ||
arnsholt | 'Cept my target really is the 22nd, now that I think about it, since the relevant code actually lives in NQP | ||
moritz | 'cept for the code in NativeCall.pm | 17:51 | |
diakopter | I kinda think it should be in nqp | 17:52 | |
arnsholt | The code in NativeCall.pm is just porcelain, to use git terminology | 17:53 | |
The real work is all implemented in NQP | |||
japhb__ | jnthn: @concurrency_wishes.push('API "works" in rakudo-parrot, but just uses the single-threaded scheduler instead', 'Provide a spec-approved way to test if the implementation will run single-threaded'); | 17:54 | |
retupmoca | somewhat related question: iirc, common lisp had a *FEATURES* global variable that was an array of enabled features (threading, sockets, etc.) | 17:56 | |
does perl6 have a $*FEATURES variable or somesuch? | 17:57 | ||
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japhb__ | Don't think so, unless you look at $*VM. | 17:57 | |
FROGGS | retupmoca: we don't keep track of enabled/implemented/available features (yet) | 17:58 | |
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PerlJam | Those things strike me as being roles on the perl6 instance. WE'd just need to spec the appropriate names and behaviors | 17:59 | |
FROGGS | because the main goal is that all backends on all platforms support everything | ||
japhb__ | Right now my test for concurrency actually checks if ::('Thread') ~~ Failure; | ||
PerlJam | "just" :) | ||
arnsholt | japhb__: Oooh, that's a really neat idiom! | 18:00 | |
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retupmoca | ah, here we go: *features* contains ( [...] :GENCGC :IEEE-FLOATING-POINT :INLINE-CONSTANTS :LARGEFILE :LINKAGE-TABLE :LINUX :LITTLE-ENDIAN | 18:01 | |
and such | |||
(in common lisp) | |||
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retupmoca | I don't need it (at least right now), but it seems like a nice feature | 18:02 | |
arnsholt | Yeah, it's probably a good feature to keep in mind | ||
Common Lisp is a neat language, in general. Just a shame the syntax is such a pain ^_^ | 18:04 | ||
retupmoca | I like a lot of what it has, I just generally don't enjoy coding in it. | 18:05 | |
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arnsholt | I haven't used it much, but I end up a bit ambivalent about it | 18:08 | |
On the one hand there's much cool stuff (loop is ridiculously powerful, for example), but sometimes it's really annoying as well | |||
The impedance mismatch of Lisps assuming that everyone works in Emacs is a contributing factor as well, I must admit | |||
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hoelzro | $obj.method: $foo, $bar, $baz is bsaically $obj.method($foo, $bar, $baz), right? | 18:26 | |
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jnthn | right | 18:30 | |
arnsholt: A NativeCall on JVM for this month would rock. Especially if it handles what DBIish needs :) | |||
arnsholt | Yeah, I'd love to get that done | 18:31 | |
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jnthn | Grrr...$dayjob stole my Perl 6 day next week as well as this week :/ | 18:31 | |
arnsholt | I've gotten the basic CArray stuff done now, and I hope the rest of CArray will follow soon-ish | ||
Then it's back to pondering for a while, to figure out CStruct | 18:32 | ||
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japhb__ | jnthn: Awww, that bites. | 18:45 | |
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tadzik | .tell Mouq I've only just noticed your rakudobrew pull requests, dunno why I didn't get memo on them before. Thanks, much appreciated! | 18:49 | |
...shouldn't that work? | |||
jnthn | Gah, next week is 4 days of teaching spread over 3 cities and 2 countries | 18:50 | |
tadzik | ,tell Mouq I've only just noticed your rakudobrew pull requests, dunno why I didn't get memo on them before. Thanks, much appreciated! | ||
graghdrstarsdg | |||
jnthn saturates his schedule with Perl 6 time in the week after it... | |||
tadzik: preflex will send messages | |||
tadzik: yoleaux lived up to its name... | 18:51 | ||
tadzik | hah | ||
preflex: help | |||
preflex | try 'help help' or see 'list' for available commands | ||
tadzik | preflex: list | ||
preflex | Botsnack: [botsnack]; Cdecl: [cdecl]; 8ball: [8ball]; excuses: [excuse]; Factoid: [+, -, ., ?, delete, get, store]; Help: [help, list]; Karma: [++, --, karma, karmabot, karmatop]; Nickometer: [nickometer]; Nickr: [nickr]; PlokiRE: [re]; Seen: [seen]; Sixst: [6st, ordinal]; Tell: [ask, clear-messages, messages, tell]; Rot13: [rot13]; Quote: [be, quote, remember]; WCalc: [calc, wcalc]; Version: | ||
[version]; XSeen: [xseen]; ZCode: [zdec, zenc] | |||
tadzik | preflex: tell Mouq I've only just noticed your rakudobrew pull requests, dunno why I didn't get memo on them before. Thanks, much appreciated! | 18:52 | |
preflex | Consider it noted. | ||
tadzik | yay | ||
xalbo | The documentation of the anyof combinator on promises seems wrong. Specifically, the part that says "If the first promise to produce a result is instead broken, then the resulting Promise is also broken. The excuse is passed along. " | 18:54 | |
TimToady | in what way do you think it is wrong? | 18:55 | |
it's not testing for success, it's testing for a result | 18:56 | ||
moritz | that doesn't sound like 'anyof', rather 'firstof' | 18:57 | |
TimToady | yes, it's winner-take-all semantics | 18:58 | |
(which is why the other construct is currently named "winner") | |||
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xalbo | Then the text "The anyof combinator creates a Promise that is kept whenever any of the specified Promises are kept. " threw me off. I read that as saying that *if* any of them is kept, the result is kept. | 19:00 | |
TimToady doesn't think that was the intent, but admits it's unclear | |||
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TimToady | junctional notions in the time domain come out a little funny, especially when overlaid with succeed/fail semantics | 19:01 | |
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TimToady | the as-yet unimplemented race primitive is supposed to let everyone finish in whatever order they come in, like a marathon. anyof and winner are more like match-play golf, where as soon as the winner is determined, the other person goes home and doesn't finish | 19:03 | |
anyway, all these names are still negotiable | 19:04 | ||
xalbo | Right, but I was assuming that anyof still waited for at least one person to cross the finish line. As I read it now, if anyone is disqualified before the first person wins, the whole race is called off. | ||
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TimToady | perhaps we need to spec a way to distinguish those cases, other than hand-coding a loop | 19:05 | |
one can see the argument that a broken promise is very near to a blow-up-the-rocket exception, so cancelling the race isn't so strange | 19:06 | ||
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TimToady | one could also make the other argument that a promise that is broken for a good reason should be relatively easy to retry | 19:07 | |
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TimToady | STM kinda works like that | 19:07 | |
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lue | Hello world o/ | 19:08 | |
ingy^ | TimToady: shortest token match? | ||
TimToady | software transactional memory | ||
ingy^ | ic | 19:09 | |
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dalek | p: 901a922 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files): mapped op sayfh |
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moritz | TimToady: sounds like we could have a concurrent grep for finding kept promises, and then the current anyof comibnator would do | 19:13 | |
jnthn | japhb__: I managed to stack 3 of the up in the week after next and begged that no more than two be stolen or I'll be very very sad. :) | ||
anyof has the same semantics as Task.Any from .Net, that is, if *any* of the promises are kept, it will be. Thus it is kept as soon as one of them is. It doesn't actually care much what happens after that. | 19:15 | ||
TimToady: I didn't spec it anywhere yet or try it, but at least for subscribables...uh...supplies (?) I'd imagined a .catch(...) | 19:16 | ||
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tadzik | aargh. I was trying to fix a pandabug that relied on JSON failing to build, and now when I came up with a possible fix JSON builds correctly again | 19:17 | |
jnthn | I agree that with anyof/allof you might not care about whether a promise was kept/broken, just that one or all of them came to a result. | 19:18 |
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