»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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timotimo berekuk: i just ran a chrome developer tools audit thingie on questhub 00:17
there's a crapton of unused CSS rules (which is probably just bootstrap being what it is), but you could let the browser cache a lot of things 00:20
also interesting: Optimize the order of styles and scripts (4) To ensure CSS files are downloaded in parallel, always include external CSS before external JavaScript.
and it claims that button.css and button.min.js would save about two thirds of their size by getting gzip-compressed by your web server 00:21
just tiny things to make your site snappier :)
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[Coke] looks like niecza is failing a bunch of tests. 00:36
as is rakudo.jvm 00:37
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[Coke] preflex: tell moritz github.com/moritz/Math-Model/pull/2 is the only deprecation warning left in the R* trial builds. 00:39
preflex Consider it noted.
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[Coke] one more failing test on lwp-simple 00:45
er, one *remaining* failing test. looks like most of the failures have been fixed. 00:46
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BenGoldberg preflex: seen yoleaux 00:54
preflex yoleaux was last seen on #perl6 30 days, 5 hours, 32 minutes and 35 seconds ago, saying: 18:23Z <diakopter> Mouq: awesome work on stdsigspace Mouq++
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colomon [Coke]: dang it, merged your Math::Model pull request and *then* figured out it doesn't work. :\ 01:26
r: class A { has %!a; method b() { %!a{"hello"}:exists; }; }; A.new.b 01:30
camelia ( no output )
colomon r: class A { has %!a; method b() { 1 || %!a{"hello"}:exists; }; }; A.new.b
camelia rakudo-jvm 60c8c1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/rqb98vBvJl␤You can't adverb that␤at /tmp/rqb98vBvJl:1␤------> a; method b() { 1 || %!a{"hello"}:exists⏏; }; }; A.new.b␤ expecting any of:␤ pair value␤»
..rakudo-parrot 60c8c1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/ftMf8XqZ2x␤You can't adverb that␤at /tmp/ftMf8XqZ2x:1␤------> a; method b() { 1 || %!a{"hello"}:exists⏏; }; }; A.new.b␤ expecting any of:␤ pair value␤»
colomon rakudobug? 01:31
anyway, I've added parens around it in Math::Model and everything is happy again. 01:32
moritz: ^^ 01:33
colomon feels good making even a tiny little commit somewhere. 01:38
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[Coke] colomon: thank you for fixing it. I think I didn't test it because it had prereqs. sorry about that 02:32
colomon no worries
I made sure to set up panda first so the prereqs would be easy. 02:33
and now I have an up-to-date rakudo and panda and whatnot 02:34
Actually merging the pull request was the easiest way I could figure out to test it. I know there must be something better. 02:35
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BenGoldberg p56: say 'à'; 03:27
camelia p5-to-p6 : OUTPUT«say(chr(195) ~ chr(160))␤»
TimToady um, no 03:34
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adu std: $*LANG 04:04
camelia std 8370f3f: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤» 04:05
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TimToady std: $*NONESUCH 04:12
camelia std 8370f3f: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
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raydiak 'Foo::Bar'.eval.new; # is there a better way than eval to get a type object from a string containing a class name? 04:41
TimToady ::($string) should work 04:42
raydiak beautiful...thanks! 04:43
BenGoldberg r: my $foo = 'Str'; say ::($foo) 04:53
camelia rakudo-parrot 60c8c1, rakudo-jvm 60c8c1: OUTPUT«(Str)␤»
BenGoldberg r: my $foo = 'Asdf::qwerty'; say ::($foo) 04:54
camelia rakudo-jvm 60c8c1: OUTPUT«No such symbol 'Asdf::qwerty'␤ in block at /tmp/nhZwoY8yd7:1␤ in any eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1086␤ in any evalfiles at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1292␤ in any command_eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1196␤ in any command_eval at sr…»
..rakudo-parrot 60c8c1: OUTPUT«No such symbol 'Asdf::qwerty'␤ in method gist at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12004␤ in method gist at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:1014␤ in sub say at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12904␤ in block at /tmp/Q13hx1O5Z4:1␤ in any at /tmp/Q13hx1O5Z4:1␤ i…»
TimToady r: package Asdf::qwerty {}; my $foo = 'Asdf::qwerty'; say ::($foo) 04:56
camelia rakudo-parrot 60c8c1, rakudo-jvm 60c8c1: OUTPUT«(Asdf::qwerty)␤»
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TimToady rosettacode.org/wiki/Metered_concurrency#Perl_6 <-- here's a pretty little thing 06:47
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TimToady (though the site is very slow right now for some reason) 06:51
FROGGS preflex: tell jnthn The cursor-mem-opts does not break any nqp/r-p/r-j tests but there is no performance boost visible except in moar 06:52
preflex Consider it noted.
FROGGS morning
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TimToady jnthn: would be nice to be able to get a count of queued messages from a channel, then my Semaphor class could report its current usage 07:02
diakopter well, it'd be an estimate 07:04
TimToady sure, there's races
diakopter an upper bound
er.
not a bound. :)
TimToady but for my Semaphore class, $max - $.tickets.count would be the semaphor counter 07:05
diakopter DO. LORD. OH DO. LORD. OH DO.
TimToady hmm, my spelling isn't consistent... 07:07
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lizmat wonders whether such a Semaphore class shouldn't be specced 07:36
decommute&
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TimToady we don't want to encourage people to suboptimal primitives though... 07:41
jnthn If we built a construct that sat in a loop continually acquiring the semaphore, we could call it semafor...
uh, I mean...morning o/ 07:42
TimToady er, o/
jnthn takes the first few sips of coffee :)
diakopter dunks head under coffee
brrt morning all 07:43
TimToady well, it'll take another 15 minutes here before asteroids become likely again 07:44
brrt whats so suboptimal about a semaphor :-) - early morning brain ca't find a good reason
TimToady composibility?
jnthn TimToady: spec what you want the method to be called 07:45
TimToady *sab*
leave me with the difficult bikesheds, do ya?
diakopter only the underwater antigrav ones 07:46
TimToady is tempted to call it .backlog :
:)(
jnthn Well, I can say I'm not sure we should make channels numify to it :P
TimToady geh, typer is broke
no, it's not supposed to be used to write race conditions on purpose :)
but it'd be nice to know if our channel is keeping up, at any rate
and how close we are to a max buffer size, if we implement one 07:47
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jnthn Yes, I also want to have a way to limit the buffer size. 07:48
Right now it's unbouned, which gives no back-preasure... 07:49
TimToady hasn't really thought of anything better than .count or .elems...maybe .pending? 07:50
if a channel tracked a max, then my Semaphore class wouldn't have to remeber it to return .roomleft, or whatever the .max - .pending is 07:51
.elems would make sense to someone who thinks of a channel like an array that's getting pushed 07:52
jnthn well, underneath a channel is just a lock-free queue... 07:53
TimToady does the JVM keep track of the size of it for you?
jnthn but just 'cus it *is* that doesn't mean we want people to think of it like that...
TimToady: Believe so...lemme check...
TimToady: yes, but with Big Warning: 07:54
TimToady
.oO(Don't use this to write race conditions!)
 07:55
jnthn "Beware that, unlike in most collections, this method is NOT a constant-time operation. Because of the asynchronous nature of these queues, determining the current number of elements requires an O(n) traversal. Additionally, if elements are added or removed during execution of this method, the returned result may be inaccurate. Thus, this method is typically not very useful in concurrent applications." 07:56
sorry, some guy wandered in with a thermometer to see how warm the room was... :)
TimToady oh, so it's actually going out and counting, hmm
jnthn Yeah 07:57
We can maintain it by keeping an atomic integer in the channel too...
TimToady so if we want it, we do our out atomic ++/--, and call it .approx so we don't have to make it atomic along with the queue ops
jnthn But then of course everything pays for it whether we ever want the count or not
TimToady *our own 07:58
right
jnthn yes, the atmoic I mentioned is so ++ and -- themselves on it are not gonna lose count
TimToady but we have to track it if we ever want to enforce a limit
jnthn Well, the JVM provides other queue types that can be bounded 07:59
BUT it needs to knwo the size up-front then.
So we could implement our bounded one in those terms 08:00
TimToady do Go's channels provide a count?
yes, len(channel), apparently 08:01
jnthn yes, and it seems they default to zero-length buffer 08:02
(meaning that a send always blocks unless a receiver is already there waiting)
adu o hi jnthn 08:03
TimToady oh, well, that wouldn't work for the way I use it :)
jnthn well, you'd have to specify a size if you want async is all...
moritz \o
preflex moritz: you have 1 new message. '/msg preflex messages' to read it.
jnthn There's (perhaps wisely) no unbounded.
I do wonder if unbounded is a good default
bbi5
TimToady but apparently they have "buffered channels" too
adu TimToady: afaik, len() only works on buffered channels 08:05
TimToady I think unbounded is a good default if they don't specify a bound :) 08:06
adu TimToady: I'm a big fan of golang 08:07
TimToady though one might want to discourage some threads in the scheduler if they're known to be feeding large channels...
adu: it certainly fixes a few of the things that are notably wrong about C :) 08:08
adu like switch/case with default fallthrough and explicit break 08:09
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TimToady well, was thinking more along the lines of distinguishing pointers from slices of arrays 08:10
adu I much prefer the default break with explicit fallthrough
oh, well, that too
jnthn back 08:14
for a little bit at least :)
o/ adu
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adu jnthn: great job on jvm! 08:14
TimToady adu: maybe you should write the Go backend :) 08:15
jnthn adu: Well, it's not just me that's worked on it. :) But happy it's appreciated. :)
adu TimToady: I wouldn't know where to start
I know the internals of Go quite well (I tried to write a call/cc implementation using 6c, the intermediate compiler between 6g and the assembler), but I'm still quite a newbie at Perl6 internals 08:16
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TimToady I'm sure jnthn++ would have reams of advice on where to start; my advice comes more in the realm of where to finish. :) 08:17
adu :) 08:18
moritz "start with nqp" :-) 08:19
adu ok
moritz it seems that most ports have started by implementing 6model in the host language
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moritz then cross compilation from an existing NQP host language to the new target language 08:20
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TimToady --> zzz 08:21
jnthn Yeah... 08:22
Well, really for JVM I started with code-gen for the most basic QAST nodes
But you need to start porting 6model pretty soon to handle anything non-trivial :) 08:23
adu why soon?
jnthn As in, pretty soon after you start porting anything
'cus you can't do anything with objects until you do so
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masak mornin', #perl6 08:27
FROGGS o/ 08:28
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jnthn ok, teaching time... 08:28
bbl
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dalek kudo/pr/229: 7ee27fe | Arcterus++ | / (36 files):
Merge branch 'nom' into sized-arrays
 08:33
kudo/pr/229: 558080d | Arcterus++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
Fix our arrays
kudo/pr/229: 48ca3c6 | Arcterus++ | src/core/Array.pm:
Fixed typed array regression
kudo/pr/229: 53633ba | Arcterus++ | src/core/Array.pm:
Fix .reverse and .rotate regressions
kudo/pr/229: 3baa649 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (3 files):
Merge branch 'nom' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into pr/229
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masak TimToady++ # rosettacode.org/wiki/Metered_concurrency#Perl_6 09:22
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masak why do most languages return only one value, even though they accept 0 or more parameters? why does this feel completely natural? 11:42
timotimo because most languages don't have parameter flattening 11:43
is my first guess
hoelzro I'm guessing it has to do with complexity in doing such a thing in C 11:44
and other languages following its example
masak clearly we should have used Forth more as a role model, and C less ;) 11:45
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colomon Forth++ 11:58
hoelzro oh man, I need to add rosetta code examples to my Perl 6 "TO READ" list 11:59
masak p: enum Choice <Nay Aye>; say Nay ~~ Choice; say Nay ~~ Aye; say Choice ~~ Choice 12:20
camelia rakudo-parrot 60c8c1: OUTPUT«True␤False␤True␤»
masak \o/
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atroxaper Hello #perl6 ! 14:27
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moritz hello atroxaper, * 14:27
atroxaper hello moritz 14:28
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nwc10 good UGT, #perl6 14:29
atroxaper nwc10 o/ 14:30
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timotimo o/ 14:48
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hoelzro all(@x Xeqv @y) checks if every element of @x is equivalent the corresponding element of @y, right? 15:42
FROGGS all @x to all @y 15:43
moritz hoelzro: that would be Zeqv
hoelzro ok, hang on 15:44
hoelzro is new to this metaoperator stuff
FROGGS rp: say [1, 2, 3] Xeqv [1, 2, 7]
camelia rakudo-parrot 60c8c1: OUTPUT«True False False False True False False False False␤»
FROGGS rp: say [1, 2, 3] Zeqv [1, 2, 7]
hoelzro Xeqv would check @x[0] against all of @y
camelia rakudo-parrot 60c8c1: OUTPUT«True True False␤»
hoelzro along with @x[1], @x[2], etc, right?
FROGGS correct
see the putput 15:45
hoelzro but Z would just check @x[i] eqv @x[i]
moritz puput!
FROGGS :o)
moritz *putput
hoelzro ok, I'm just trying to put it into words =)
FROGGS hoelzro: right
moritz typo'd the typo quote
FROGGS ha!
hoelzro picked "@x Xeqv @y" from S03
odd example
but that's a really cool feature
all(@x Zeqv @y)
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moritz though note that it stops comparing at the shorter array 15:46
@x eqv @y is basically @x == @y && all(@x Zeqv @y) 15:47
hoelzro so if +@y < @x, it only compares the first +@y elements
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moritz aye 15:47
hoelzro good to know 15:48
FROGGS like a zipper stops at the shorter side
(unless you rip it off)
timotimo i have a zipper that won't start any more :( 15:49
FROGGS eww :( 15:56
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atroxaper Is there right? github.com/perl6/Pod-To-HTML/blob/...TML.pm#L17 16:52
I mean is it right that we need a good pod tool?
I just want to practice with Perl6. And want to do something useful. 16:53
moritz yes, that's a good starting point 16:55
TimToady Itch, meet Scratch. Scratch, meet itch. 16:56
atroxaper moritz: ok. I'm in! ) 16:57
BenGoldberg rosettacode.org/wiki/Reports:Tasks_...d_in_Perl6
atroxaper moritz: do you know where that pod2html module are used? 16:58
moritz atroxaper: perl6/doc, and by perl6 --doc=html 17:00
atroxaper moritz: ok. I'll see there. Thank you.
see you #perl6 17:03
BenGoldberg Ignore that link I posted, it's actually rosettacode.org/wiki/Reports:Tasks_..._in_Perl_6
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lizmat got to the AmsterdamX meeting in time 18:00
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TimToady afk 6 hours or so, see ya in SoCal & 18:24
colomon \o
masak o/ 18:25
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grondilu r: say [+] rand x 5 19:16
camelia rakudo-jvm 60c8c1: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: trailing characters after number in '0.459950550734632540⏏.459950550734632540.459950550734632540.459950550734632540.45995055073463254' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in block at /tmp/SoAYfjfkLa:1␤ in any eval at gen/jvm/stage2…»
..rakudo-parrot 60c8c1: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: trailing characters after number in '0.6182410727228390⏏.6182410727228390.6182410727228390.6182410727228390.618241072722839' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in method gist at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12004␤ in method gist at g…»
grondilu n: say [+] rand x 5
camelia niecza v24-98-g473bd20: OUTPUT«0.4748114237910190.4748114237910190.4748114237910190.4748114237910190.474811423791019␤»
19:16 jnap joined
grondilu is confused 19:16
timotimo you need xx 19:17
grondilu oh
timotimo x is a string operator
BenGoldberg rn: say [+] (rand xx 5)
grondilu facepalms himself
timotimo r: say (rand x 5).perl
camelia rakudo-jvm 60c8c1: OUTPUT«2.569878910978993␤»
..niecza v24-98-g473bd20: OUTPUT«2.0931222229698312␤»
..rakudo-parrot 60c8c1: OUTPUT«2.09440449332543␤»
rakudo-jvm 60c8c1: OUTPUT«"0.253500739322205850.253500739322205850.253500739322205850.253500739322205850.25350073932220585"␤»
..rakudo-parrot 60c8c1: OUTPUT«"0.4545349572758540.4545349572758540.4545349572758540.4545349572758540.454534957275854"␤»
BenGoldberg rn: say (rand xx 5).[+]
grondilu hasn't been writing perl6 code for a while, thus this silly mistake
camelia niecza v24-98-g473bd20: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Prefix requires an argument at /tmp/BBDyNA5S49 line 1:␤------> say (rand xx 5).[+⏏]␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..rakudo-jvm 60c8c1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/ueRvz1azY3␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix + instead␤at /tmp/ueRvz1azY3:1␤------> say (rand xx 5).[+⏏]␤»
..rakudo-parrot 60c8c1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/Zl02BC8a_H␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix + instead␤at /tmp/Zl02BC8a_H:1␤------> say (rand xx 5).[+⏏]␤»
BenGoldberg rn: rand xx 5 >> [+] >> say 19:18
camelia rakudo-jvm 60c8c1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/MT8lifSOW0␤Unsupported use of >> to do right shift; in Perl 6 please use +> or ~>␤at /tmp/MT8lifSOW0:1␤------> rand xx 5 >>⏏ [+] >> say␤»
..rakudo-parrot 60c8c1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/sD7HpHQiRp␤Unsupported use of >> to do right shift; in Perl 6 please use +> or ~>␤at /tmp/sD7HpHQiRp:1␤------> rand xx 5 >>⏏ [+] >> say␤»
..niecza v24-98-g473bd20: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Unsupported use of >> to do right shift; in Perl 6 please use +> or ~> at /tmp/quxDHoTkgA line 1:␤------> rand xx 5 >>⏏ [+] >> say␤␤Unsupported use of >> to do right shift; in Perl 6 please…»
19:22 darutoko left
geekosaur if you wanted a hyper, no spaces 19:23
>>op>>
19:23 PZt left
colomon but >>op>> say probably will not do what you want 19:23
nor will >>[op]>>, I think 19:24
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grondilu So, MoarVM. Any progress? 19:25
19:26 btyler left
timotimo today has been mostly debugging a tricky failure or gc bug or something 19:27
a day ago, jnthn fixed a non-optimal memory usage pattern in the grammar engine that caused about 1/3rd of the time for stage parse in rakudo's setting to disappear 19:28
FROGGS has measured the stage parse time for parrot and moarvm to be almost exactly the same with an optimized moarvm build on windows, but on linux it would crash due to the mystery bug
but we do make it all the way through stage parse by now, which is really nice 19:29
19:29 Rotwang left
timotimo i don't know when you last checked in 19:29
grondilu ok, thanks for the heads up
FROGGS timotimo: stage parse using an optimized moar takes 176s on my linux, where parrot takes 120s
grondilu is glad to see that the team is still working hard and hasn't given up :-)
timotimo oh, oops
i'm not working hard :\ 19:30
colomon timotimo: I didn't see a noticeable improvement overnight in the parrot stage parse on my smoke test.
FROGGS that is by compiling BOOSTRAP.nqp using an unoptimized moar (aka cheating)
19:30 PZt joined
grondilu talking about memory, today I compiled rakudo-star-2013.11 and I noticed it used much more RAM. I had to activate swap (I have 1Go RAM). 19:30
FROGGS hmmm, that is unexpected I'd say 19:31
slavik \o/
FROGGS the memory usage should drop
hi slavik
slavik hi all
yesterday was awesome ^_^ 19:32
FROGGS slavik: in what sense?
slavik starcraft and booze :)
19:32 Rotwang joined
FROGGS :o) 19:32
slavik I also got to meet Mike Morhaime
co-founder/ceo of blizzard 19:33
so, it was an awesome day :)
FROGGS yeah
that is kinda awesome :o)
slavik now, I am reading rakudo* updates, so today is going to be a very good, day, too.
well ... I have yet to meet TimToady :)
FROGGS yes you have 19:34
timotimo colomon: yeah, that improvement only helped on moar.
FROGGS he's a genius (and he is a very nice person)
colomon timotimo: ah 19:35
slavik FROGGS, I mean in person. I have not made it out to any of the YAPC :(
colomon timotimo: didn't realize moarakudo was that far along
FROGGS slavik: yes, I mean in person too 19:36
slavik wait, "yes you have", was that an answer to my question?
or rather, statement
FROGGS err, "you have to" 19:37
I mean, you need to meet him :o)
slavik haha 19:38
agreed
Rotwang hi 19:39
FROGGS hi Rotwang
PerlJam wakes up enough to remind everyone about the advent calendar 19:41
lizmat further decommutes 19:42
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arnsholt The test failures on NQP/JVM, do they happen to everyone, or only a subset of people? 19:52
moritz seems to be everyone 19:53
arnsholt Oh, good (sort of)
In that case, any objections to marking them as TODO?
moritz if you also open tickets, no problem (IMHO) 19:58
arnsholt Good point 19:59
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arnsholt jnthn: printfh on JVM returning String is just wrong, right? 20:06
lue Anyone know why panda can't compile Shell::Command for me during bootstrap?
jnthn arnsholt: Just about everything returns something in case it shows up in rvalue context... 20:07
preflex jnthn: you have 3 new messages. '/msg preflex messages' to read them.
arnsholt jnthn: Yeah, but it looks like the tests expect an integer (number of bytes written) 20:08
FROGGS nqp: my $fh := nqp::getstdout; say(nqp::printfh($fh, "olá"));
camelia nqp-moarvm, nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«olá4␤»
..nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«oláolá␤»
arnsholt Yeah, what FROGGS said. Parrot returns bytes, whereas JVM returns the string printed
FROGGS (actually bytes written)++ 20:09
jnthn arnsholt: Oh...
The Parrot answer is probably usefuller :P
arnsholt Yeah. Also, kills a failing test
FROGGS ohh, nice catch 20:10
arnsholt The JVM test failures mean I can't make test install
FROGGS :/
arnsholt And now I just had to do something about it =)
FROGGS I think I owe you a beer then :o) 20:11
damn, I don't wanna hack on S11+panda :(
arnsholt If it's any consolation, this is instead of NativeCall hackery =) 20:12
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lue the weird thing is, I was able to manually compile Command.pm, so it must be a problem with how panda's doing it. 20:15
moritz lue: did you check the shell exit status? 20:16
lue no, let me run rebootstrap again
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FROGGS O.o 20:20
timotimo: that is you! www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMPMFfqAeS8
diakopter on a plane! 20:21
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arnsholt "2 TODO tests unexpectedly succeeded" =D 20:23
Looks like the return value was a problem elsewhere as well \o/ 20:24
FROGGS cool! 20:25
arnsholt++
jnthn arnsholt++ # nice
lue moritz: I get a $? of zero :/ (also, panda now refuses to compile File::Find somehow. I'll clear out the panda repo and ~/.perl6 and try again)
FROGGS lue: can paste then what happens? 20:26
lue FROGGS: sure, I will.
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moritz lue: I surely hope ~/.perl6 isn't used anymore by contemporary panda 20:27
lue moritz: that's where it installed to. I also happen to like ~/.perl6 :) 20:28
FROGGS moritz: it is, but suffixed by the compiler version
dalek p: 0713cbb | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/vm/jvm/ (5 files):
Make nqp::{write,print,say}fh on JVM return number of bytes written.

This brings NQP/JVM in line with the Parrot and Moar backends, and fixes three failing tests in t/nqp/19-file-ops.t
FROGGS rp: say %*CUSTOM_LIB<home>
camelia rakudo-parrot 60c8c1: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval/.perl6/2013.11-15-g60c8c1a␤»
lue [ and "HEAD is now at 41a73f3 Merge pull request #60 from FROGGS/master" is where I am, so it seems to be a pretty new panda :) ]
moritz shouldn't install to <site> by default?
*it
FROGGS it tries that, and falls back to home is site is not writeable 20:29
moritz ah.
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lue And since my site is in /usr/local, I'd need to use sudo all the time to install modules. 20:31
moritz thinks he even implemented that, once upon a time
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lue And now Shell::Command went perfectly. I'm almost willing to blame rebootstrap specific shenanigans. 20:34
FROGGS that might be a good bet
lue (because before IIRC I would always run rebootstrap, because re- has the helpful "no need for rebootstrap, going to normal bootstrap" behavior, meaning more laziness on my part :D) 20:35
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lue roar. Now JSON::Tiny is the failer: gist.github.com/lue/1522bddcd64e62669748 20:38
moritz: is there some sort of --verbose command for (re)bootstrap that I can use to see what commands exactly are being used? 20:39
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FROGGS hmmm, panda should print the command it has invoked in case it failed 20:40
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lue FROGGS: nope, it just moves on. The only reason panda tries stuff again is because the next item on the list "requires" it, and thus it must be compiled. Which will fail as before. 20:41
FROGGS no, that was a mumbled feature request
lue ah :) 20:42
Rotwang did anyone notice that make install -j<more than one> fails with 2013.11? 20:44
or is it just me
lue and of course I can compile the offending JSON::Tiny file just fine. I looked, and it seems panda's running the exact same command I am. blergh :/ 20:46
Rotwang $ /usr/bin/perl5.16.3 -MExtUtils::Command -e cp does_not_exist does/not/exist/as/well
$ echo $? 20:47
0
so basically there are two problems, 1) makefile is bad, 2) ExtUtils::Command cp is proken
broken*
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Rotwang I guess I should file a bug report then 20:49
lue Rotwang: yes :) Then we'd know what specific error occurs upon use of -j 20:50
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Rotwang lue: so is it enough that I send email to a [email@hidden.address] ? 20:51
lue Rotwang: yes. 20:52
Rotwang I also get "Possible cross-site request forgery" while trying to access: rakudo.org/rt/open-all 20:53
just informing
lue doesn't know why, but he feels as though he's been unable to use panda for quite a long while now :( 20:54
Rotwang: go to rt.perl.org instead. 20:55
Rotwang lue: I know, just letting you guys know, so someone who maintains rakudo.org may fix it someday
lue OK. I just wasn't sure if you knew or not. 20:56
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lue Trying again still fails JSON::Tiny :( 21:07
FROGGS timotimo++ # www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMPMFfqAeS8 21:09
lue: so you can install it manually but not as a dep?
lue FROGGS: no, whenever I say "I can compile it manually", I mean I run "perl6 --target=pir ..." 21:10
FROGGS and that gives exit code 0 ?
lue FROGGS: yep. Nothing I've run yet has given me anything else. (Although I have not tried a manual use of 'panda' yet, admittedly) 21:11
lue is running rebootstrap to see if the failure point changes 21:12
FROGGS I'll install rakudo@parrot and try to install JSON::Tiny 21:13
lue File::Find is what fails on rebootstrap :/ 21:14
FROGGS any good error message?
lue FROGGS: nope. I'm going to regain a partial installation via bootstrap, and then try manually installing (via panda) JSON::Tiny 21:15
(assuming JSON::Tiny is where it will fail this time, that is.)
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FROGGS build stage failed for JSON::Tiny: Failed building lib/JSON/Tiny/Actions.pm 21:21
:o(
lue FROGGS: I still say it's panda's fault though, on account of the moving failure point. 21:23
FROGGS umm, using bootstrap.pl instead of reboostrap.pl did it for me 21:26
lue o.o 21:27
FROGGS Compiling lib/JSON/Tiny/Actions.pm to pir
Compiling lib/JSON/Tiny/Grammar.pm to pir
Compiling lib/JSON/Tiny.pm to pir
==> Testing JSON::Tiny
masak 'night, #perl6
FROGGS gnight masak
lue *gurgle* 21:28
ajr_ Is there some reason that 2013.11 changed the name of perl6 to perl6-p? It broke my download-compile-and set-links script. 21:30
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jnthn I think you should got a perl6 that points to it also? 21:31
ajr_ BTW if such a script would be useful to anyone else, I'd be happy to share it
lue ajr_ it still installs as perl6 for me (in addition to perl6-p)
FROGGS ajr_: if you configure for jvm and parrot, it will install the first mentioned as perl6 21:32
lue buh buh buh buh buh... running bin/panda manually works! But.. but... gaaaah
FROGGS (in addition to perl6-j and perl6-p)
lue so now I guess I manually copy over bin/panda to the location...? (or the entirety of bin/ ?) 21:33
rjbs Shouldn't perl6-p just return true if the input is perl 6?
FROGGS rjbs: it should exit with zero if it executed it successfully 21:34
ajr_ my config line is perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-nqp
lue FROGGS: what does a newly-installed panda have in its bin directory? just panda or a bunch of other files too?
rjbs FROGGS: (Lisp joke.)
FROGGS ajr_: that should give you a perl6 binary... how do you invoke make?
rjbs: I am not a Lisper :o) 21:35
lue: others too
rjbs FROGGS: functions ending in p are predicates
arnsholt rjbs: Not sure I would've gotten that one without the Lisp joke hint, but now I'm smiling =)
ajr_ make on the next line, then make install after that
FROGGS ajr_: that is al right 21:36
ajr_: maybe it is a problem when --backends is not passed...
ajr_ The same script works on 2013.10 21:37
lue oh right, there's still installing Panda... :|
FROGGS ajr_: I am trying it on my box...
ajr_: after configuring, does it print that it found both nqp-j and nqp-p? 21:40
ajr_: that happened on my box, and since it checks for nqp-j first, this is the implicit candidate for perl6
perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-nqp --prefix=../nqp/install 21:41
Found /home/froggs/dev/rakudo/../nqp/install/bin/nqp-j (backend jvm)
Found /home/froggs/dev/rakudo/../nqp/install/bin/nqp-p (backend parrot)
like that
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timotimo FROGGS: did you like the talk? >_< 21:46
FROGGS yes, I did :o)
ajr_ I don't have the output of the 2013.11 job at hand now. The script is at pastebin.com/180Znipd
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lue ==> Fetching panda 21:47
Start of substr out of range. Is: 2, should be in 0..1
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lue I... I just don't know. 21:48
FROGGS ajr_: you must have an nqp in path somewhere, otherwise you would get:
perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-nqp
No suitable nqp executables found! Please specify some --backends, or a --prefix that contains nqp-{p,j} executables
ajr_ What's the change between 2013.10 and 2013.11 that makes that necessary?
timotimo FROGGS: i only finished the slides a minute before the talk started :| 21:49
FROGGS timotimo: that is how it is meant to be :P 21:50
lue Does anyone know why the "fetch" step failed? ... Oh, I can guess.
FROGGS lue: that must be: panda/lib/Panda/Fetcher.pm:28: my $d = $_.directory.substr($from.chars);
jnthn timotimo: That means you're on the path to being a pro conf speaker! :)
dalek p: 44d4c1d | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | t/nqp/19-file-ops.t:
Mark broken nqp::readlinefh tests as TODO.

Now t/nqp/19-file-ops.t passes cleanly through the test harness.
FROGGS ajr_: the multi backend refactoring
ajr_: just pass --backends=jvm,parrot or only one of the two 21:51
lue FROGGS: I get the feeling what happened is that ./ is a failure, but ../panda/ isn't. I'll let you know in a minute if it helps. 21:52
FROGGS arnsholt: I had thought the condition should go after the todo(), no?
timotimo jnthn: i spent way more time making the framework for the presentation, though
FROGGS lue: "./" sounds about right (being the thing that kills it) 21:53
arnsholt FROGGS: Whoops! That's a pasto, indeed!
FROGGS :o) 21:54
ajr_ Does that mean that rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/ is no longer correct?
lue still would like to know how a fetch step takes so long with local directories 21:55
FROGGS ajr_: ohh yes, that should mention the --backends option...
moritz: are you able to fix rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/ about --bakends?
lue: it takes about six seconds on my box to parse the ecosystem's projects.json (which is 35kB) 21:57
lue bah, still on the 'fetch' step. [ In case you can't tell, I'm getting a little annoyed with panda about now. I just want one stinking module... ]
FROGGS :/ 21:58
I'd wipe site/ at some point... and start afresh (in case you install to site)
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lue
.oO(One of these days, I'll go into panda, and finally stop it from being so dang awkward to use all the time...)
 21:59
FROGGS: I don't think starting this over again will help matters :) 22:00
dalek p: 2a89f4e | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | t/jvm/02-pipes.t:
Relax an overly zealous string check a bit.

This fixes a spurious failure in t/jvm/02-pipes.t.
p: 7f7d915 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | t/nqp/19-file-ops.t:
Fix braino. FROGGS++ for spotting it.
lue >:( ==> Fetching panda
Start of substr out of range. Is: 9, should be in 0..8
22:02 spider-mario left
lue (this is getting utterly idiotic by now) 22:02
22:02 benabik left
Rotwang just created my first rakudobug evar \:D/ 22:03
lue \o/ Rotwang++ # and may there be many more you file :) 22:04
timotimo also watches his talk now
i didn't do half bad i think
except the text really isn't readable on the video recording
maybe i should have recorded the screen as well and built a composite video and upload it to youtube
or with youtube-doubler
lue will go and consider either fixing panda or building an alternative to it at some point in the future. *grumble grumble* & 22:07
FROGGS ahh 22:08
rakudo$ perl6-p -MFile::Find -e 'my $dir = "tools"; say find(:$dir).list>>.directory>>.substr($dir.chars)' 22:15
/lib /distro /build /build /build /build /build /build /build /build /build /util /lib/NQP
rakudo$ perl6-p -MFile::Find -e 'my $dir = "./tools"; say find(:$dir).list>>.directory>>.substr($dir.chars)'
Start of substr out of range. Is: 7, should be in 0..5
lue: ^^ here is your bug
that is because listing a directory sort of normalizes their path 22:16
japhb rjbs: re: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-11-25#i_7913782 , I once explained Lisp predicates to a non-programmer friend of mine. She began inviting me lunch by IM'ing 'foodp'. My reaction pretty much amounted to \o/
rjbs foodp is like classic hacker jargon, isn't it? 22:17
we used to say that a lot
japhb She somehow got it from first principles.
rjbs proving that lisp is truly intuitive
japhb Which clearly indicates her head was screwed on properly, methinks.
rjbs Lisp: You can even understand it when hungry.
jnthn
.oO( Lis? )
 22:18
japhb
.oO( Logo: LISP for people who hate all the parens )
huf itth not that hard to underthand
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FROGGS lue: patch: github.com/tadzik/panda/pull/62 22:23
tadzik: ^^
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timotimo # We need to cleanup the path, because the returned elems are too. - are too what? 22:30
ah. are cleaned up, too
FROGGS err, yes :/
22:34 jnap left
bbkr_ has anyone used Storm - storm-project.net/ before? Perl 6 is mature enough to enter world of distributed computation and I'm thinking about porting IO::Storm bindings. 22:34
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japhb WRITE ALL THE BINDINGS o/ 22:39
japhb is working this one layer down -- writing the wire-protocol code (in my case, for protocol buffers) 22:41
lue Start of substr out of range. Is: 6, should be in 0..5
FROGGS: I assume I need your patch to make this work at all, correct?
(that happened one dir above panda btw)
timotimo ah, storm is doing protobuf? that sounds good 22:42
dalek kudo/moar-support: eb14f79 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Stub p6trialbind on Moar (always returns "unsure")
 22:44
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Tene japhb: What are you using protobuf for? 22:46
japhb timotimo, Incorrect interpretation. I meant that I am addressing the general "bind all the things" problem by writing wire-protocol code, while others are writing service-level code.
timotimo ah
japhb Tene, nothing quite yet, since I can write them a lot better than I can read them at the moment. ;-)
Tene Heh heh heh.
lue gives up on panda for the time being and just downloads/installs the stupid module he wanted himself. 22:47
Tene capnproto looks like an appealing protobuf successor, although I've never use it yet.
japhb Eventually, we should be able to integrate with anything that speaks protobuf (which is basically everything Google, and a lot of other projects that adopted it besides)
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japhb I've seen a number of protobuf "replacements". My general view (not specific to Cap'n Proto, since this is new to me), is: 1) as much hype as substance, and 2) Generally are optimized for a subtly different problem space than protobufs. Now mind you, this one claims to be written by the author of protobuf 2, so it ought to be interesting to read his docs. 22:50
FROGGS: You shouldn't need to say .IO.path (unless that's a Niecza compatibility thing) 22:51
lue wishes we wouldn't call them protobufs. Sounds too much like a Perl 6 thing. :) 22:53
japhb You suggest instead?
22:53 stevan_ left
rurban2 the google protobuf library? 22:54
japhb rurban2: Precise, but wordy.
(And actually a little inaccurate, since I was speaking about the protocol itself, not the library that implements it at runtime.) 22:55
lue probuf, prtbfr, protbfs, etc. Just not protobuf, because until *just now* I always thought it was some obscure low-level Perl6 type :) 22:56
rurban2 the protobuf serialization format 22:57
lue PBSF :)
(although it could conceivably be misconstrued as referring to rakudo's code serialization...) 22:58
japhb rurban2: Definitely more accurate. Still wordy, and lue's PBSF is too short, methinks. 22:59
I don't like referring to them as "Google protobufs" because that implies that they can *only* be used with Google services (a common misperception I didn't want to continue). On the other hand, they *were* invinted here. 23:00
*invented
timotimo spacex is apparently about to re-start the 13 minutes count-down for their geosync satellite launch if i understand correctly
lue protlbufs perhaps
23:01 fridim__ joined
japhb heh 23:01
lue or protobuf -> p6f . Oh wait, nevermind, that'll be confusing when the FORTRAN backend comes for Rakudo...
japhb
.oO( ".proto bufs" )
 23:02
PBs? 23:03
Kinda jargony
timotimo peanutbuffer and jelly? 23:04
lue Come to think of it, I like how protlbufs sounds in my head...
japhb
.oO( It just always comes down to language, doesn't it?
"peanutbuffer" :-D 23:05
rurban2 google is the creator, and it's hosted on code.google.com
japhb Very nice, timotimo
rurban2: Where else would you expect them to host it?
timotimo codeplex
japhb :-P 23:06
(and LOL)
rurban2 well, someone else could have taken over (happened before) and then it would be hosted elsewhere. but it's still at google 23:07
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lue
.oO("protocolbuffer" would shorten to p14r ...)
 23:09
japhb Sure. It's the public fork of an active internal project, as opposed to being tossed over the wall and "abandoned to the community". Hence, hosted at the mothership. Still, I get your point rurban2. Any idea of a better way to indicate that while Google shepherds it, in actual use it's not Google-specific?
geekosaur which someone will manage to typo as p1r 23:10
23:11 Rotwang left
lue geekosaur: i18n and l10n seem to manage :) 23:11
japhb (Just in case someone is wondering, I have *no* inside knowledge of the future roadmap for Protocol Buffers; I'm specifically doing my implementation based entirely on the external docs.)
rurban2 they just put out libprotobuf8 this year 23:12
but the format itself seems to be stable since a few years 23:14
lue Net::IRC's eight-ball isn't very nice... 23:15
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ajr_ rakudo* 2013.11 is still generating perl6-p instead of perl6, even with perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-nqp --backends=parrot 23:35
23:36 colomon joined
timotimo doesn't it have to be --backend=parrot? 23:36
23:36 prevost joined
ajr_ see FROGGS at 16:56:58 23:37
timotimo 16:56 < FROGGS> eww :(
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ajr_ SpaceX have had to halt the countdown at T-00:03:40, if anybody's following that. 23:41
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lizmat has finally decommuted, but is very tired 23:45
timotimo yeah, they've stopped it for today and will continue on thursday
colomon any word on what happened? 23:46
timotimo flight computer didn't boot i think 23:47
how do i bind an op for moarvm again? :|
i know there's some tool to do it, but i forget how ... 23:49
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timotimo has to build a perl6 first 23:51
23:51 d4l3k_ joined
timotimo has a backup in the benchmark components 23:51
23:51 Vlavv` joined 23:52 dalek left, masak joined, d4l3k_ is now known as dalek
timotimo is not sure where to put the mapping from "MVM_OP_replace" to "MVM_str_replace" 23:53
actually MVM_string_replace
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timotimo huh, there was a commented out op for it already 23:55
23:55 Celelaptop joined 23:56 woolfy joined, pecastro joined
timotimo has a little stubby but probably working implementation 23:58
23:59 rurban1 joined, stevan_ joined
lizmat goes to get some sleep 23:59
timotimo sleepwalking?

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