»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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azawawi sleep & 00:05
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dwarring r: say (567700/1048575 * 32 ** 40).base(32) 04:04
camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} d3a284: OUTPUT«HACKHACKHACKHACKHACKHACKHACKHACKHACKHACK.HACKHA␤»
grondilu cute 04:08
dwarring got the idea from here www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/13ny...e_it_stop/ 04:10
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grondilu can you write the inverse function? 04:15
dwarring r: say (2264129042459209/3656158440062975*36**50).base(36) 04:16
camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} d3a284: OUTPUT«MAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOP.MAKEITSTOPM␤»
grondilu I meant: string -> number
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grondilu or sub (Str --> Rat) {...} in proper P6 04:17
dwarring invese in scala and python www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/13ny...op/c75qpd7 04:18
inverse in perl6 gist.github.com/dwarring/73687cc3c23f067f58da 04:25
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timotimo o/ 06:16
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leont_ Morning * 06:26
timotimo oh hey leont_
are we going to enjoy breakfast together? 06:27
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timotimo ven and i are ready to go do breakfast right now 06:30
leont_ I'm showering first 06:33
timotimo ah ok
we'll wait for you 06:34
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kyun There is any editor for write perl6? 06:36
xiaomiao kyun: you don't need a special editor for it
kyun I mean a perl6-mode in emacs 06:37
xiaomiao I have no idea, but that's a very different question 06:40
kyun XD 06:41
timotimo well, vim has perl6 syntax highlighting which also sets things like the "identifier regex" or whatever that's called
kyun Hey, I just need syntax highlighting XD 06:45
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Ven kyun: vim is good to go :) 06:48
kyun I use emacs with evil-mode Xd 06:49
XD
timotimo leont_: just tell us when you're going and we'll make it happen
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masak hello hello #perl6 06:53
...from...
...A TRAIN \o/
timotimo HOW IS IT POSSIBLE
could it be a train towards austria?
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lizmat commutes to venue& 06:53
mauke waves to japhb 06:54
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masak in a loose sense, yes. but no :/ 06:54
I vowed to be present spiritually for the APW and the hackathon -- mostly by hanging around here on IRC and keeping close tabs.
06:54 b2gills left
masak but then, predictably, my weekend gets booked up by well-meaning forces. 06:55
I will still do my best to keep up, though.
timotimo OK
Ven not nice, teasing us like that
:P
timotimo would have been a pretty amazing surprise, but a masak in spirit is nice, too 06:56
masak a pickled masak is nice, too.
timotimo mhm mhm
Ven .o( please remove your spiritual hands off of my beer )
masak anyway, let me start here: gist.github.com/masak/ba8196437d1e48809758
please peruse said gist
it's my take on "how production ready is perl 6?"
modeled after html5please.com/ -- I really like that page for its simplicity-yet-detail 06:57
Ven .o( there is web support, but where is air support? )
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masak what's missing from my gist is some future milestones, marked by XXX 06:57
also, there needs to be a rigorous explanation of what each thing *is* 06:58
japhb mauke: Sorry, was backlogging. :-)
masak for example, people who I've shown it to aren't 100% clear on what the difference is between "Learning materials" and "Onramps"
leont_ timotimo: down in 5
timotimo aha!
masak the difference is clear-ish to me, but it needs to be explained 06:59
and so do all of them, really, to give some context
dalek ast: eeb03d5 | usev6++ | S32-array/delete.t:
Refine test for RT #116695
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=116695
masak by the way, for the milestones, what I'm looking for is a kind of "observable" that is either objectively true/false, or so nearly so that it's not the subject of intense debate. 07:00
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masak oh, and I hope it doesn't need saying, but: I don't purport to be "official" or "single source of truth" in any way. I just happen to think we need this kind of framework to orient ourselves in the direction of production-readiness. 07:02
japhb masak: I like the format, and generally agree with what you've got so far.
masak other people are welcome to evolve other frameworks -- or help with this one.
japhb: cool! patches welcome.
japhb is still attempting to fully activate his brain -- patches might be a tad delayed. :-) 07:03
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masak in fact, maybe I should transfer what I have to a github repository instead. 07:04
done -- github.com/masak/perl6-production-readiness 07:06
redirecting gist.
japhb Not a bad idea, though a gist already *is* a repo. Just doesn't look like one. :-)
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masak japhb: oh, I know. I used that when I moved it. 07:08
japhb: but this way, I can accept PRs and/or add collaborators. 07:09
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dalek ecs: 8702be6 | (Helmut Wollmersdorfer)++ | S15-unicode.pod:
graphemes confirm to Unicode Grapheme Cluser Boundaries extended
 07:12
ecs: 625f5d5 | (Helmut Wollmersdorfer)++ | / (13 files):
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/specs
japhb masak: Fair enough.
masak I will keep making improvements during the day, hopefully. 07:13
japhb I wonder if there's a way to actually get an alert on my mac when I get highlighted in my ssh'ed irssi session ...
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moritz masak: there seems to be no mention of some kind of reference documentation a la doc.perl6.org 07:14
masak moritz: I think I mentally included that under "Onramps" -- i.e. people who learn on their own with the materials available off the web and on IRC. 07:15
moritz: adding it to the description of "Onramps" for now. 07:16
moritz: if you have a suggestion for a better name for this than "onramps", I'm listening :) 07:17
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moritz "Learning facilities"? "Ways to get started"? 07:20
moritz isn't good with naming
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azawawi .tell PerlJam finally found an example @ github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master...nc/print.t . Thanks :) 07:21
yoleaux azawawi: I'll pass your message to PerlJam.
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dalek ecs: 05b6dfd | Mouq++ | S15-unicode.pod:
Fix email links; bump version; ensure valid Pod6
 07:26
azawawi downloads all of jnthn++ YouTube talks for later viewing
Mouq (Not that the email links actually work, since I still haven't figured out making formatting codes work in tables.. it hurts my head) 07:27
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masak moritz: I renamed "Learning materials" to "A Perl 6 Book", and "Onramps" to "Ways to get started". moritz++ 07:31
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masak moritz: oh, and ooc, would you say that doc.perl6.org is "ready", or if not, why not? can the readiness be stated in the type of observable I'm after? 07:33
Mouq masak: Does better Buf/Blob support fall under Unicode?
I don't think doc.perl6.org is ready
It's very incomplete, and much of the parts that are fleshed out are outdated 07:34
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Mouq It's also a tad disorganized yet, in terms of tutorials etc. 07:35
Where it has them
moritz I know that doc.perl6.org isn't ready 07:36
but IMHO it's essential to have and improve
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BSc_tadzik agreed 07:37
do we have anything that's *ready*? :) 07:38
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masak yes, we do. 07:38
that was one of the surprises of formulating that resource.
on github.com/masak/perl6-production-.../README.md -- the first three things are READY
and I stand by that. 07:39
BSc_tadzik ohh, I messed that document
I was thinking in terms of docs,vm,compiler,ecosystem etc
masak we have production-quality general features, grammars and parsin, and object orientation.
07:39 [Sno] left
masak BSc_tadzik: right. 07:39
BSc_tadzik that we can both agree on :)
brrt tadzik has a BSc now?
BSc_tadzik brrt: aye :)
brrt very BSc_tadzik++
masak BSc_tadzik: that's just because we're looking *forward* most of the time, which is sensible.
BSc_tadzik masak: naturally 07:40
brrt: thank you :)
masak so BSc_tadzik++
BSc_tadzik masak++ for the document
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brrt yeah, agreed 07:40
inode.at :-)
masak ponders whether to reify "VM" or "compiler" or "ecosystem" into headings of their own
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Mouq m: sub postfix:<rocks> { say "hell yeah!" }; Perl rocks 07:43
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/OCfu2Pz7Wk␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/OCfu2Pz7Wk:1␤------> tfix:<rocks> { say "hell yeah!" }; Perl ⏏rocks␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper…»
Mouq m: sub postfix:<rocks> { say "hell yeah!" }; Perl\ rocks
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/tpGVPpPsr7␤Calling 'postfix:<rocks>' will never work with argument types (Perl)␤ Expected: :()␤at /tmp/tpGVPpPsr7:1␤------> fix:<rocks> { say "hell yeah!" }; Perl\ ⏏rocks…»
Mouq Aww
m: sub postfix:<rocks> ($_) { say "hell yeah!" }; Perl\ rocks
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«hell yeah!␤»
Mouq \o/
masak japhb, moritz, BSc_tadzik, Mouq: I just added you as contributors to the prod-ready document. no strings attached.
anyone who so much as breathes in the direction of the document will get a commitbit.
Mouq masak++ btw 07:44
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japhb
.oO( "I swear if you so much as LOOK at me funny, I WILL COMMIT(BIT) YOU!" )
 07:45
moritz the good old pugs policy of commit bits (which I try to apply to the perl6 github organization too)
masak that's the one. 07:46
xiaomiao I've used a similar strategy in the past, it seems to work well
masak brrt: what's your github user name? 07:47
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brrt masak: bdw 07:47
BSc_tadzik I still have mixed feelings after a non-reviewed commit broke panda bootstrap at some point
brrt brrt was taken iirc 07:48
masak brrt: I bit you too. :)
japhb masak: Ecosystem should definitely be part of prod-ready, but in addition we may want certain groups of modules we would expect in the ecosystem: protocols, data formats, bindings, and so forth
brrt :-)
Mouq m: say Bool.HOW; say EVAL Bool.HOW # :(
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW.new()␤Cannot call 'EVAL'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Cool $code, Any :lang($lang) = { ... }, PseudoStash :context($context))␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/4HmdvvAS8U:1␤␤»
Mouq m: say Bool.HOW; say EVAL ~Bool.HOW # :(
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW.new()␤Could not find symbol '&ClassHOW'␤ in method <anon> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13678␤ in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2662␤ in any find_method at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:972␤ in block <un…»
masak japhb: the latter one sounds *much* more amenable to having an observable than the former one.
japhb: unless the former one means something like "Toolchain (for distributing modules)" or whatever 07:49
japhb masak: Well, there's ecosystem *infrastructure*, and then there's things *in* the ecosystem
yeah, that
masak right.
Mouq We report Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW, but can only get at it as Metamodel::ClassHOW. Is the former name the 'correct' one?
masak japhb: on reflection I think I'd much rather see individual sections for "Protocols", "Data formats", etc, than just "Ecosystem" 07:50
japhb: there are almost countably infinite demands could be put on the ecosystem.
japhb Mouq: ISTR the Perl6:: namespace had special handling, and that jnthn wasn't 100% happy with the current difference between implementation and self-reported name, but I don't recall how he wanted to resolve that. 07:51
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japhb masak: That's what I was trying to mean. Brain fuzzy. 07:51
If the cafe was open, I'd self medicate with caffeine. :-)
masak "Toolchain" is a bit tricky. I can't really tell if what we have today (panda + stuff) counts as "ready for production". maybe our resident BSc has an opinion on that. :)
BSc_tadzik I wouldn't say it is :) 07:52
masak I mean, I still see a future where Perl 6 is more officially integrated into CPAN.
timotimo at le venue, with le internets
BSc_tadzik at best it's in the maturing state, as immature :P
timotimo yays
Mouq japhb: :/ kk, thanks. I was trying to determine which types the docs are missing even typegraphs of and was confused by that
japhb No, it's not. Improving at least, because FROGGS et al., but last I checked that stuff wasn't merged.
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masak timotimo: congratulations! you just got write access to github.com/masak/perl6-production-readiness/ ! :) 07:54
japhb heh
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masak .oO( EXCEPT IN NEBRASKA! ) 07:54
Ven congrats
Ven waves the "production ready" flag
we need a lot of those XXX. 07:55
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timotimo :) 07:55
maybe we should register "perl6.xxx"?
japhb masak: The problem with giving states enough power that some can be forward thinking is that, well ... others aren't. :-P
FROGGS >>> Is somebody lost and can't find the way to the venue? <<<
timotimo i wonder how much that costs. probably half a fortune :\
FROGGS: where do you sit? 07:56
BSc_tadzik timotimo: I thought perl6 will be xs free :)
japhb timotimo: perl6.xxx can just be a gif of a butterfly emerging from its chrysalis. :-)
FROGGS timotimo: at the OMV gas station
japhb FROGGS: Do you see the sign on the sidewalk pointing towards the venue? 07:57
BSc_tadzik or just cool code examples, like in those subreddits: /r/natureporn, /r/scienceporn... there's even /r/humanporn, all SFW
japhb (Or do you already know how to get here and are directing people?)
timotimo probably the latter 07:58
Mouq "why not both?"
FROGGS japhb: yes, because *I* know where the venue is :o)
japhb Ah, OK, good
Ven where are you seated, japhb :)? 07:59
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FROGGS is jnthn already in da house? 07:59
japhb Third row, dead center. :-)
Ven don't think so
FROGGS: did you guys catch larry? 08:00
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japhb Larry is second chair in from the left in my row. 08:00
timotimo japhb: are you counting rows from the front or back? :) 08:01
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japhb timotimo: The third row is the same either way. ;-) 08:01
timotimo o/
FROGGS okay, I do not spot anybody that looks lost... I'm coming in now too 08:02
lizmat Ven: japhb is sitting behind timotimo 08:03
dalek ecs: e940cd6 | (Helmut Wollmersdorfer)++ | S15-unicode.pod:
added reference to Unicode standard
ecs: 58611c3 | (Helmut Wollmersdorfer)++ | S15-unicode.pod:
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/specs
ecs: 7a8127b | (Helmut Wollmersdorfer)++ | S15-unicode.pod:
added reference to Unicode document
Ven lizmat: I know. he's behing me as well :)
lizmat okokok
:-)
Ven behind*.
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pmichaud TimToady: RE: GLR I find your ideas intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. 08:03
japhb Instead of spacial coordinates, clearly we need to represent this room using a relative location graph.
*spatial
pmichaud: :-D 08:04
brrt in a way these are equivalent of course 08:05
japhb imagines constraints on the seating graph: if $speaker === TheDamian { @rows.avoid(1) }
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Ven it's staaarting 08:09
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[Tux] wishes every visitor of the Austrian Perl Workshop a fantastic time! 08:13
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[Tux] Method catpath (from IO::Spec) called at: 08:16
/pro/3gl/CPAN/rakudobrew/moar-HEAD/panda/lib/Panda/Fetcher.pm, lines 48,50,52
Please use $*SPEC.catpath instead.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please contact the author to have these calls to deprecated code adapted,
FROGGS [Tux]: yes, we are waiting for after the next compiler release to change it
[Tux] and a few more in rakudobrew build moar
lizmat otherwise we will break panda for the people who are not in blead 08:17
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[Tux] ok, just passing the message I seem to be requested :P 08:17
lizmat [Tux]++ :-)
[Tux] would have loved to be there too, but $work :( 08:18
moritz IWBN to wait with the dreprecation until we can switch to a new method that works with the last compiler release
japhb Yes, between release N and N+1, the new feature should be there, and the old one not actively showing deprecations, then between N+1 and N+2, show deprecation, and after N+2, remove old. But ... thats's more the ideal than what we cactually do. 08:21
GAH the lag ahhhhhh
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masak Ven: what's your github name again? just remember that it's not like your IRC nick :) 08:27
Ven masak: nami-doc
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Ven (why, may I ask?) 08:27
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cognome Ven: why do you ask? may I ask? Have all fun in Salzburg btw. 08:31
Ven cognome: I'm having lots! thanks
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masak Ven: giving you write access to github.com/masak/perl6-production-readiness/ 08:31
(done)
Ven oh, alright. thanks
well, for me it's production ready anyway :)
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timotimo did jnthn make it to the venue in the mean time? 08:32
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cognome masak, is it necessary to create another repository not in the perl6 organization area? 08:32
thx, anyway 08:33
leont_ masak: you may want to add toolchaining to that list 08:35
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cognome masak: may be deserves an entry on strings because it is the forte of Perl 5 (even if partly covered in other entries). They are not lazy yet. I am waiting for the day I can do a grep split on a pipe to show how string laziness and array laziness are two sides of the same coin. 08:36
masak Ven: for me too. but there are certainly aspects where we could do better, and those aspects may be showstoppers for people, making them not consider Perl 6 production-ready. 08:37
dalek ecs: 305e05e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S99-glossary.pod:
Add IWBN lemma
 08:38
masak cognome: I don't care -- that feels like a meta-thing right now. the important thing is to collaborate over the content.
japhb It is really interesting hearing this talk in German, especially which words end up being borrowed words.
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masak cognome: (about the perl6 organization thing) 08:38
cognome ok
dalek kudo/nom: 48b1336 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Prevents double deprecation warning for spurt()
kudo/nom: 95be122 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/IO/Path.pm:
Temporarily remove deprecation removal
kudo/nom: 5ca5fe8 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/IO/Spec/Unix.pm:
Temporarily remove deprecation removal
kudo/nom: c35341e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (5 files):
Undeprecate recently deprecated IO ops

Please revert this commit after release of 2014.10
FROGGS timotimo: I can't spot him
lizmat moritz: ^^^
masak cognome: re strings -- laziness is an important point. I'm just not sure I consider it on any kind of critical path for production readiness. willing to be swayed by argument.
cognome: I do have Unicode as a heading already.
timotimo OK :( 08:40
masak leont_: I'm sure you know 100x more than I do about toolchaining. could you give me a few details/subheadings? what is a toolchain and in what ways can it be production ready?
timotimo liz is so dilligent! :)
08:40 _slade_ left
masak .oO( dillizent ) 08:40
dalek ast: 9acc51a | usev6++ | S02-names-vars/list_array_perl.t:
Add test for RT #117481
 08:41
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=117481
cognome masak: so you should have a category LATER for things not deemed worthy of 6.0 so as to distinguish LATER thing from things missing from your document.
leont_ The toolchain is everything you use to build/test/install(and arguably author) modules
FROGGS lizmat / others: what if we would make the deprecation conditionally? could we fudge deprecations according to the current VERSION file?
pmichaud did the "is DEPRECATED" trait disappear? 08:42
lizmat no
but it doesn't work in the settings
FROGGS it does not work in the setting :/
pmichaud it used to
I mean, that was the whole reason it was created -- to mark deprecated things in the setting
masak cognome: but this document is about production readiness... why would I include things that are outside of its scope? 08:43
lizmat well, in my experience, it never worked in the setting
masak cognome: you must be thinking of another document :P
lizmat strange errors, either on all VM's or just parrot, I don't really recall
pmichaud okay.
lizmat putting the DEPRECATED call in the sub was at least optically equivalent
and more flexible :-) 08:44
masak oh, and by the way: usev6++
it's so nice to see a lot of movement in the RT queue.
cognome masak: to distinguish things people has not thought yet for your document from those that don't pertain to it. :)
masak cognome: ok. I see.
cognome: I still would prefer to focus on answering the question "Is Perl 6 production ready?" 08:45
pmichaud well, the nice thing about "is DEPRECATED" is it can catch things at compile-time. I guess the sub form could do that also.
masak cognome: if someone wants to collect information about ""what happens after 6.0?", then they're welcome to do so in a separate file somewhere.
pmichaud I think it's important to not conflate "6.0" and "production ready" as being somehow equivalent. 08:46
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masak ok. 08:47
bartolin thanks, masak++
I wish all of you a lot of fun at the APW
masak well, in that case, I'm talking about "production ready", not "6.0".
pmichaud masak: exactly.
masak and yes, I see what you mean, pmichaud.
cognome masak: I understand you don't want your list to become some kind of Borgesian labyrinth :) 08:48
masak surely the "production ready" discussion will extend beyond "6.0", if all goes well with the 6.0 thing.
japhb It might be useful to mark things that are specifically prioritized or deprioritized -- if we can even make that distinction in a project as anarchic as this one, though the 6.0 discussion may point to that.
lizmat wrt to DEPRECATED: maybe it should also mention in which (blead) version of Perl6 it will be removed
masak cognome: yeah, I picture it as this list of level-1 headings, like html5please
cognome Perl things often tend to end up this way.
lizmat fwiw, there are now several DEPRECATED things in Perl6 that have been there for more than a year now 08:49
pmichaud at one time we also noted that rakudo (the compiler) could be more aggressive on deprecation than Rakudo Star
lizmat m: my %h; say %h<a>.exists
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤ in method exists at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:1601␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/vbmymcC7La:1␤␤»
lizmat m: my %h; say %h.exists('a') 08:50
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«False␤Saw 1 call to deprecated code during execution.␤================================================================================␤Method exists (from EnumMap) called at:␤ /tmp/3_hKY_jcoM, line 1␤Please use the :exists adverb with postcircum…»
pmichaud i.e., the compiler is allowed to deprecate things aggressively, and Rakudo Star works to provide deprecation cycles
lizmat is one such deprecation
FROGGS lizmat: yeah, pass the version to DEPRECATED that tells since when it is deprecated (which could be a future date), and pass a version when it will be removed
and we could hide the deprecation before $version1, and do warnings for authors for after $version2 08:51
lizmat and how do we check the version in blead ?
FROGGS lizmat: the VERSION file
pmichaud I'm pretty sure Perl 6 defines a Version type :-)
m: say v6.0.0.WHAT 08:52
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«(Version)␤»
FROGGS and fudge could take care of fiddling with deprecation messages in some way
pmichaud maybe we should use it. :)
lizmat ok, how do we *compare* the version in blead sensibly ?
FROGGS lizmat: you can compare versions, on?
pmichaud m: say v6.0.0 after v5.9.9 08:53
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«True␤»
08:53 anaeem1_ joined
Ven act.useperl.at/apw2014/talk/5833 apparently 08:53
FROGGS pmichaud: right now we would use the compiler versions like 2014.10, but yeah
08:53 jack_rabbit left
masak it's interesting how we have at least three "axes" of versioning, but really only one dimension along which to express it. 08:53
lizmat m: say $*VM.version
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«v2014.9.14.g.0.df.2.d.6.f␤»
FROGGS (because that's all we have)
pmichaud isn't the compiler version available somewhere already, though?
FROGGS m: say $*VM.version cmp v2014.10
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/gKuhEGsVtz␤Missing semicolon.␤at /tmp/gKuhEGsVtz:1␤------> say $*VM.version cmp v2014.⏏10␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ dotty…»
lizmat m: say $*VM.version < v2014.10
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/CTZNMbU80X␤Missing semicolon.␤at /tmp/CTZNMbU80X:1␤------> say $*VM.version < v2014.⏏10␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ dotty m…»
masak axis one: Perl 6 is the "next" thing after Perl 5. (that's the unpopular axis.) 08:54
axis two: the spec keeps evolving, and will eventually hit 6.0
lizmat m: say $*VM.version cmp v2014.10
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/os8FrFwzHX␤Missing semicolon.␤at /tmp/os8FrFwzHX:1␤------> say $*VM.version cmp v2014.⏏10␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ dotty…»
pmichaud m: say $*VM.version after v2014.10
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/ZvfwZtMgab␤Missing semicolon.␤at /tmp/ZvfwZtMgab:1␤------> say $*VM.version after v2014.⏏10␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ dot…»
FROGGS m: say $*VM.version cmp v2014.10.0
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/H7htjAkmA4␤Missing semicolon.␤at /tmp/H7htjAkmA4:1␤------> say $*VM.version cmp v2014.⏏10.0␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ dot…»
masak axis three: the compiler(s) keep evolving.
FROGGS ?
lizmat yuck?
pmichaud m: say $*VM.version.WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«(Version)␤»
FROGGS m: say $*VM.version cmp version.new('2014.10')
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/bxgzNw7qVU␤Undeclared routine:␤ version used at line 1␤␤»
FROGGS m: say $*VM.version cmp Version.new('2014.10')
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«Less␤»
FROGGS m: say $*VM.version cmp Version.new('2014.09')
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«More␤»
pmichaud m: say $*VM.version after v2014.10 08:55
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/7wAWLodWxu␤Missing semicolon.␤at /tmp/7wAWLodWxu:1␤------> say $*VM.version after v2014.⏏10␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ dot…»
FROGGS that's weird
pmichaud feels like a rakudobug
masak submits rakuodbug
lizmat that's looks like a parsing issue
FROGGS m: say v1.2
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«v1.2␤»
lizmat m: say v2014.10
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/sJ0f9YfLJQ␤Missing semicolon.␤at /tmp/sJ0f9YfLJQ:1␤------> say v2014.⏏10␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ dotty method or postfi…»
pmichaud m: say v2014.10 before $*VM.version
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/5WTerG1xJe␤Missing semicolon.␤at /tmp/5WTerG1xJe:1␤------> say v2014.⏏10 before $*VM.version␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ do…»
FROGGS m: say v10.2
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/WHm04xB1jm␤Missing semicolon.␤at /tmp/WHm04xB1jm:1␤------> say v10.⏏2␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ dotty method or postfix␤»
FROGGS only one digit allowed??
/o\ we are doomed
pmichaud m: say v10.2 afer v10.1 08:56
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/ehy82TiQIy␤Missing semicolon.␤at /tmp/ehy82TiQIy:1␤------> say v10.⏏2 afer v10.1␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ dotty method o…»
pmichaud m: say v10.2 after v10.1
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/l5I8nAWHiL␤Missing semicolon.␤at /tmp/l5I8nAWHiL:1␤------> say v10.⏏2 after v10.1␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ dotty method …»
08:56 anaeem1_ left
pmichaud I think it's the "after" operator that is confusing things 08:56
or maybe not
masak: last night at dinner I was propounding that the "6.0 spec" should be an extraction of roast tests 08:57
FROGGS pmichaud: no, it is about two digits before the . 08:58
lizmat pmichaud: an interesting thought :-)
masak pmichaud: ooh 08:59
pmichaud: I like that.
pmichaud I'm still on my "synopses are not spec" soapbox
masak :)
yeah.
pmichaud the "spec" is defined by tests.
masak roast being spec feels very precise in a way.
pmichaud so, we should figure out what tests in roast we feel are key to 6.0, and memorialize that.
FROGGS std has 'v' <?before \d> :: <vnum> +% '.' '+'?, and we miss the ::
09:00 anaeem1_ joined
masak pmichaud++ 09:00
pmichaud (and it explicitly should *not* be simply a tag on the roast repo... it should be a curated extraction of tests)
(at least until roast matures)
FROGGS pmichaud: yeah, which includes fudged tests where we still have bugs or open TODOs, but that is totally valid
09:01 Hor|zon left
FROGGS if we could attach meta information to test files some how... 09:01
timotimo Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match: - in sub WINNER at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:21472 ... meh :\
FROGGS O.o 09:02
lizmat technically, though, we would need to change the skip handling so it can account for being an unimplemented, required feature
pmichaud shouldn't be any skip handling 09:03
well.... okay, I could see having skip handling
Ven really wants to change the name of "winner" before 6.0 :)
...and maybe "more" as well
timotimo yeah
it's kinda awkward
09:03 woolfy joined
lizmat
.oO( the other day, I had thought of an alternative for more, but I seem to have forgotten it now )
 09:04
lizmat also doesn't like winner(), or the whole setup there in S17
but I heven't been able to come up with a better way and/or convince jnthn 09:05
FROGGS lizmat: I think about skips that they are a) the compiler fault and the test is meant to pass in order to comply to the spec or b) the test is bogus and need to be (re)moved
jnthn Well, I was more convinced by my original sugar-less API that I could remember :)
FROGGS jnthn: you're preparing your talk in secrecy?
timotimo oh hai jnthn
jnthn FROGGS: Well, folks sat behind me might get sneak pees... :) 09:06
gah, peeks
mauke I can't even see your screen
lizmat
.oO( sneek peas )
mauke just your back
FROGGS jnthn: you are at the venue? 09:07
timotimo i don't even see where jnthn sits :S
jnthn yes
mauke behind Larry
jnthn I sneaked in
After sleeping altogether too well.
FROGGS ahh, I saw your arm!
masak wow, it's almost like being there in person! I can picture everyone sitting on a line behind each other! 09:08
jnthn Made up for sleeping less than well in Stockholm, I guess :)
timotimo OK :)
japhb The desire to change features that are currently canonized in tests "before 6.0" points also to my feeling that choosing tests that are not frozen (or don't even having a working implementation) as being part of 6.0 seems a tad premature. Though we could say "definitely in 6.0", "in 6.0 but will likely change", and "wanted in 6.0 but not frozen"
FROGGS masak: *g*
pmichaud japhb: yes, that's why I claim it needs to be an extraction of tests
(if I'm understanding what you just wrote correctly)
japhb pmichaud: And I'm arguing for more than one extraction. 09:09
Mouq lizmat: I think we could maybe get more feedback and brainpower on concurrency things with better documentation *hint* ;)
Ven ha, jnthn indeed sneaked in
pmichaud I'm not sure I agree with "wanted in 6.0 but not frozen"
FROGGS sounds like "needs clarification"
lizmat Mouq: better than S17 ? :-)
pmichaud I think 6.0 should be "definitely in", with wishlists reserved to later versions
masak with all the sneaking jnthn is doing, is he wearing sneakers? :P 09:10
Mouq I actually have found S17 really readable, but it'd be nice to have stuff on doc.perl6.org, which can include more tutorials/examples and stuff too. I'm adding the S17 types to the typegraph document now 09:11
japhb pmichaud: Well, for example, I'm not sure I can sell 6.0 without really complete sockets functionality. But I don't think all of that is even tested, let alone implemented.
pmichaud and "in 6.0 but will likely change" sounds to me like we should simply not include it as part of 6.0
masak I also think 6.0 should be "definitely in".
which seems to suggest that macros, in their to-be-designed new clothes, will be post-6.0 :/ 09:12
japhb OK, so is "winner" in, if lots of people dislike it, but we really need something like it?
timotimo argh
pmichaud japhb: I'm not sure about that phrase "sell 6.0".
timotimo Cannot find method 'gist': no method cache and no .^find_method
Ven masak: I dont think it's that bad
pmichaud there's also a difference between "sell 6.0" and "sell Perl 6"
Ven it's not what people go for 09:13
japhb pmichaud: My use case is "Can I with a straight face discuss 6.0 as a first 'complete' release in a decade and a half, with this big thing missing?"
pmichaud is "6.0" intended to mean "complete"? 09:14
timotimo &WINNER.wrap(-> |args { say args; callwith(|args) });
09:14 SamuraiJack left
timotimo "how the heck is the winner sub called?" 09:14
i can't tell
because of that error
BUT
japhb And I agree about that difference. I have no trouble selling Perl 6 to interested parties. "6.0" would be harder, right now.
pmichaud it's those sorts of unspoken equivalencies that really bother me at times
timotimo i can just call a little in-line sub with that capture and have it print its args and kwargs
masak pmichaud++ # "unspoken equivalences" 09:15
japhb pmichaud: "complete" is perhaps a bad choice of words. Basically, I want to avoid the "Well we called it .0, but really, you ought to wait for .1" thing. I hate that.
Ven he :P
masak pmichaud: fwiw, I think the outside of the echo chamber is about twice as bad with the unspoken equivalences as we are here on the inside.
pmichaud japhb: interesting. I still come from the era when everyone knew that a ".0" release was never the one to use... wait for the .1
masak pmichaud: and worse, the outside cannot always be convinced to care. 09:16
(about the distinctions)
pmichaud masak: yes, I agree that we have to acknowledge that the equivalencies exist
japhb I'm down the hall at work from the Go language team. I think of there 1.0 threshold when I think of Perl 6.0
pmichaud japhb: if we want that sort of definition of 6.0, I think we have to say that "6.0" is at least another year away, if not longer. 09:17
japhb And I think that's still reasonable (I'm not wedded to it, I just think it's reasonable as a choice to make)
pmichaud (and I'd be okay with that, although I know many would not.)
masak pmichaud: case in point, recently at client: <devs> of course, this is just a *prototype*, not the real thing. <client> OMG, the devs already finished the thing -- we need to give them more things to do! 09:18
:P
pmichaud I'm also fine with us coming up with an extracted checkpoint that we give a pre-6.0 version identifier 09:19
timotimo why don't i has methods? :(
jnthn .HOW.name the thingy that you've got
pmichaud v6.0-pre1 works for me
timotimo k
masak sounds OK, and might give a nice roadmap-like feel
timotimo Array and Hash 09:20
japhb Yeah, I like that idea
jnthn timotimo: wat... 09:21
timotimo should i come over? ;)
i could try to golf this
jnthn you can try
pmichaud rakudo: say v6.0.0pre1 # checking
m: say v6.0.0pre1 # checking 09:22
camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Confused␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> say v6.0.0⏏pre1 # checking␤ expecting any of:␤ whitespace␤»
rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/p1mXe369ta␤Confused␤at /tmp/p1mXe369ta:1␤------> say v6.0.0⏏pre1 # checking␤ expecting any of:␤ whitespace␤»
pmichaud wha....? that used to work.
timotimo in a one-liner it does work no-problem; maybe it has to do with being called from a callback in NativeCall?
moritz m: say v6.0.0.pre1
camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«No such method 'pre1' for invocant of type 'Version'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/tE7JrbZya5:1␤␤»
masak pmichaud:
v1.2.3beta # illegal
jnthn heh, for a moment I expected "did you mean .perl" :) 09:23
masak Version('1.2.3beta') # okay
pmichaud masak: danke
yeah, that's right
masak "Only integers and certain wildcards are allowed; for anything fancier you must coerce a string to a C<Version>"
pmichaud anyway, if we go with the "6.0.0 needs to be complete" approach, then perhaps we can reasonably talk about things like "6.0.0pre1" 09:24
masak misses sorear sometimes
this feeling brought to you by glancing at S02 and seeing the word "Allomorphic" in one of the headings :)
pmichaud: any reason to prefer "pre1" to the (more established, IMO) "RC1" ? 09:25
pmichaud "RC1" sounds more like a software product to me.
timotimo waaaaait a minute
my Num $until = $wait ?? nqp::time_n() + $wait !! Nil;
pmichaud I'm worried it conflates "language spec" and "compiler" too closely. 09:26
japhb Because an RC is "if no one objects, we'll just change the name to final" as opposed to "this is a WIP pre-release"
masak fair enough.
timotimo that's BS; $wait is not the time to wait, it's the code to call if we waited instead of winning something
lizmat indeed, RC-* are usually short lived
pmichaud japhb beat me to the other aspect... "RC" nominally means "release candidate", whereas we're talking about something we've explicitly decided isn't "complete" enough to be our notion of a release.
lizmat 6.0.0pre1 would be live for at least a month, I would think 09:27
09:27 bjz joined
pmichaud well, longer if we're holding 6.0.0 for "needed features that haven't been fully explored yet" 09:28
japhb We can have pre2, pre3, etc.
masak how do we make sure we don't get "stuck" in releasing more preN things? 09:29
sometihng like a convergence criterion...
or a loop variant
pmichaud the .pre0 series should have placeholders for "tests" yet to be written to make 6.0 complete 09:30
japhb ... that's why I had my multiple categories above, for a way to say "this is what we expect we will converge to, but we don't have finalized tests written yet"
09:30 mephinet joined
timotimo is winner actually tested at all? >_< 09:31
09:31 Hor|zon joined
masak japhb, pmichaud: yes, it seems you're somehow saying the same thing. 09:32
moritz timotimo: S17-channel/winner.t and integration/advent2013-day14.t
masak though those bits are all for the known unknowns.
pmichaud well, except that I'm not convinced that "6.0.0" needs to be complete
09:32 JimmyZ joined
masak it seems that the biggest threat to 6.0 convergence at the end of a -pre0 sequence would be unknown unknowns, things we fail to plan for now. 09:32
pmichaud I am certain that a 6.0.0 (no-preN) spec should be "definitely in" and not "we want to be in" 09:33
timotimo m: $nqp::time(); # this is obviously wrong, right?
masak but realize during the -pre0 journey that we need for 6.0
camelia rakudo-moar c35341: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'Any'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/kwUVYeyK9J:1␤␤»
masak timotimo: looks obviously wrong to me.
japhb And I think that threat is part of why implementation really matters to me for 6.0.0 things. We've too often had to make major changes when we realized implementation would be painful or guaranteed-slow.
JimmyZ hello, I don't mind what's the name is... but I hope the high priority in github.com/masak/perl6-production-readiness will be achieveed :) 09:34
the name is not the key part ..
FROGGS pmichaud: +1 to "definitely in" and not to include a list of wishes that might is going to take ages
JimmyZ but +1 to ...pre1... preX 09:35
jnthn timotimo: Yeah, there are no nqp variables...
Mouq m: CompUnitRepo::Locally.^name 09:36
camelia rakudo-moar c35341: OUTPUT«Method 'install' must be implemented by CompUnitRepo::Locally because it is required by a role␤ in any compose_method_table at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2362␤ in any apply at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2372␤ in any compose at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:25…»
timotimo booya
Ven timotimo++
timotimo i have something working
Ven I saw it live – and first – *g*
masak JimmyZ: you just got added as a collaborator to github.com/masak/perl6-production-readiness/
pmichaud: you too :) 09:37
pmichaud masak++
JimmyZ masak: thanks
japhb FROGGS, pmichaud: I agree that all 6.* specs should be "definitely in", I just think we need the "want to be in" or "will be in, but changing soon" categories to guide the -preN path.
09:37 Hor|zon left
masak FROGGS: you too :) 09:37
pmichaud japhb: yes, I'm fine with that notion.
dalek c: 9f1b25c | Mouq++ | / (4 files):
Attempt to update type-graph.txt
FROGGS masak: thanks :o)
nine If you're at the APW and see a segfault during my talk, please remind me to kill the Catalyst server
pepl a segfault at your box, I assume ;-) 09:38
nine I guess "never do live demos" really means *never* ;)
pepl: yep
FROGGS japhb: when we state that something will be definitely in in 6.0.1, we don't have to state that it might change, because that can/will always happen
huf record live demo, learn exact movements to make it look live
09:38 pecastro joined
pmichaud masak: I'm sure it's perhaps more work than it's worth (or you intended), but "production-ready" feels like it wants a features-matrix treatment (for display) 09:38
japhb FROGGS: I should have said "for the 6.0-preN series", apologies. 09:39
JimmyZ other thing is: new feature or unmature feature may be defined as experiment feature
Ven www.pcgamer.com/how-gamecubewii-emu...rbocharge/ even dolphin has a JIT nowadays! :P
pmichaud I think experimental features should be part of compilers, not language spec. 09:40
FROGGS japhb: the same applies for 6.0-pre3 for example... we don't have to state that the synopsis (or tests if we have any) can change until it is done
pmichaud I somewhat like the RFC approach to standards -- standards are adopted *after* implementations, not before.
JimmyZ which implied we may remove the experimental feature next release :)
pmichaud JimmyZ: that sounds like something belonging in compiler, not language spec :) 09:41
Ven timotimo: ^ did you see my link?
timotimo didn't look, no :( 09:42
JimmyZ pmichaud: aye, but I wouldn't personally mind language spec feature is marked as experiment, since we may think we added wrong language spec which may influence other language specs
*some 09:43
japhb pmichaud: agreed re: RFC approach
09:44 Sqirrel left, Sqirrel joined
pmichaud also, it seems to me a judicious use of fudge could handle the test extraction for the 6.* definition 09:44
JimmyZ +1
timotimo jnthn: how come we get "Cannot call 'AUTOGEN'; none of these signatures match:" when we try to call a NativeCall sub? as in: why does it say only "AUTOGEN" instead of the name of the sub we tried to call?
pmichaud i.e., tests can be marked with suitable #?spec markers to indicate what is "in" or "out" of our working set of roast 09:45
JimmyZ a release of roast :)
Ven blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2014/10...eview.aspx more jit!
pmichaud and an equivalent of t/spec/spectest.data for file-level selection 09:46
er, t/spectest.data
japhb pmichaud: Agreed on both points 09:47
FROGGS I like it too :o)
lizmat wouldn't this make roast more implementation aware than it should be ? 09:48
FROGGS though, that means we tag stuff per file in rakudo and not in roast
pmichaud lizmat: I don't understand
FROGGS we'd probably need a kind-of spectest.data in roast that gets the tags
pmichaud yes, what FROGGS said
FROGGS and then it wouldn't be compiler aware :o) 09:49
lizmat ok, so the files in roast itself would not be changed for this
japhb Right, that's what we meant
FROGGS lizmat: the files in roast *will* be changed, because roast is the spec
pmichaud well, I think the files in roast would be changed to add markers identifying tests that are (not) part of spec
Ven actually I'm running out of battery... 09:50
FROGGS a spec coverage tool would be nice after all the tagging
timotimo jnthn: GTK::Simple::Scheduler.cue( { $statuslabel.text = "evaling the code now ..." } );
pmichaud roast belongs to the language, not to rakudo. :)
timotimo this should set the text of $statuslabel ASAP, shouldn't it?
pmichaud (or any other implementation)
my battery is 6%... I should seek power also 09:51
Ven 8%! ha!
FROGGS 86% in the main battery, and 100% in the bay battery :o)
Ven
.oO( I SEEK POWEEEER )
FROGGS (so I don't have to stop compiling rakudo :o)
Ven FROGGS: forgot to charge my laptop...
moritz you should have used python (batteries included!) :-) 09:52
FROGGS *g*
timotimo i can't follow the talk, my coding *and* the irc >_<
Ven \o/
timotimo ah, 8% is your laptop battery
i still have about 20 minutes left in my battery :|
Ven it's saying 45min for mine buuut I don't believe it
09:53 leont_ left, SamuraiJack joined
timotimo heh, yeah macbook airs 09:54
they are amazing devices from that standpoint
09:54 kyun left
dalek kudo/nom: d083173 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/core/asyncops.pm:
fix a few wrongs with WINNER
 09:55
lizmat timotimo++ good cacth (I think :-)
*catch rather
m: say $nqp::time_n() 09:56
camelia rakudo-moar c35341: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'Any'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/8K4cziqyid:1␤␤»
lizmat odd that that doesn't blow up at compilation 09:59
m: say "hi"; say $nqp::time_n() 10:00
camelia rakudo-moar c35341: OUTPUT«hi␤Cannot find method 'Any'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/6fnDwRsCLL:1␤␤»
jnthn timotimo: It's odd the AUTOGEN name would escape
timotimo: I just checked the MOP code and it does $proto.set_name($name);
FROGGS tries now to implement <cut>, to get into regexes again... perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html#line_2578
jnthn lizmat: It's a package var lookup 10:01
lizmat: Then calling the var 10:02
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TimToady where are the most recent timing charts? 10:02
FROGGS TimToady: timings of what?
TimToady oh, versions of rakudo 10:03
jnthn TimToady: You mean perl6-bench output? My last run I did/uploaded was jnthn.net/perl6/bench/2014-08-20.html
TimToady perl6-bench things to show in my talk, basically
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jnthn Those are the ones I used in my perf talk at YAPC::EU 10:04
Well, some of them
I used some from timotimo++ too
TimToady I don't need detail, just concept, so that should do
FROGGS is "foobar" ~~ / foo <( bar / and "foobar" ~~ / foo <cut> bar / considered to be identical?
TimToady no, <cut> mutates a string 10:06
FROGGS (wrt to the matched text, not backtracking)
hmmm
TimToady: the input string?
masak cognome: added you to prod-readiness repo, too.
TimToady yes, it's supposed to throw prefix stuff away; we haven't really figured out how to do that yet 10:07
but the idea is to be able to do continuous matching on an input stream
without keeping the whole thing in memory
cognome masak. thx. 10:08
masak pmichaud: features-matrix might be interesting for some perl6-community-internal production-ready resource, but it would contravene the purpose of what I want to create with the prod-readiness document: a simple list, with simple levels, for outsiders to read and get a quick overview.
FROGGS TimToady: got it
masak pmichaud: the document is explicitly directed to curious outsiders asking the quesiton "Is Perl 6 ready?"
timotimo i have THE POWER 10:09
masak and the answer should be more detailed than "Yes" or "No", but not burdened down with details either.
Ven is there a difference between `@ [$a, $b]` and `@ ($a, $b)` (wrt destructuring)? 10:10
Ven has the power too, now
masak Ven: no, I don't think so.
Ven kayyy.
masak Ven: I only ever use the former, though. 10:11
timotimo TimToady: t.h8.lv/p6bench/2014-09-26-many_rak..._nop5.html - this may be of interest?
Ven masak: I saw the other one on timotimo 's screen
jnthn Ven: If you use the former then it implies the sigil
So you don't need to write @ [$a, $b], just write [$a, $b] and it will make the nominal type Positional. 10:12
Just like @ does
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timotimo t.h8.lv/p6bench/2014-09-25-many_rakudos.html - this one is a bit hard to read because of the many many captions on the side making the graph itself narrower 10:12
Ven alright, then `@foo [$a, $b]` vs `@foo ($a, $b)`?
jnthn Those are same
timotimo ah and @foo [$a, $b] and just [$a, $b] are the same, too? 10:13
jnthn Well, the latter doesn't bind the actual thingy into @foo :P
masak jnthn: what other things except positionals could match agains `($a, $b)` ?
against*
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jnthn masak: Anything that knows how to .Capture and produce positionals 10:13
timotimo oooh nine is up! 10:14
jnthn masak: You can make anything destructurable by implementing .Capture
ooh, yay...the nine talk \o/
masak ooh, nine is up!
it's like I'm there and can see it...
nine walking up on stage... the crowd going wild!
what's he doing? is he stage-diving? 10:15
TimToady there's no stage :)
cognome is there a video feed for APW?
masak bonks his receiver on the side
pepl cognome: no feed, only recording 10:16
cognome pepl++
pepl lizmat++, woolfy++, vienna.pm++ # sponsoring this 10:17
Ven lizmat++; woolfy++; vienna.pm++ 10:18
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TuxCM lizmat++; woolfy++; vienna.pm++ 10:18
Ven live demo *g*
masak so... what's nine talking about? is there, like, a project he's been working on since YAPC::EU or something? :P
colomon o/
10:18 pmurias joined
Ven masak: catalyst application in p6 10:19
:')
masak colomon: thanks for showing an interest in github.com/masak/perl6-production-readiness/ ! :P
colomon: you have been added as a collaborator
pmurias masak: re production readiness, one thing which lack of is really annoying for me is automatic precompilation of modules 10:22
masak pmurias: you have been added as a collaborator
pmurias: sounds like a "Toolchain" thing, I guess.
pmurias "Toolchain" thing? It's something rakudo should do automatically 10:24
like python compile .py file to .pyc
Ven nine passing a string as a role parameter for fun and profit *g*
masak right -- just wondering where it belongs in the sections we have
Ven: passing strings as a role parameter is nice. I do it sometimes :)
pmurias having to write Makefiles is something that doesn't belong in any vaguely modern language 10:25
Ven "our role" eh. 10:26
pmurias: I feel you :P
10:26 Hor|zon left
masak agreed. 10:26
Mouq Thought: syntax vs. desugared-code benchmarks in perl6-bench 10:28
10:29 Hor|zon joined
Mouq s/syntax/idiomatic-/ 10:29
Ven masak: niner.name/talks/Inline-Perl5 10:30
also, for other people
masak niner.name/talks/Inline-Perl5 # so that I can click on it from the terminal :)
Ven++
Ven ha, mine highlighted it correctly :P 10:31
masak I only see .pl and .pm/.pm6 files in that directory though.
there's no actual talk?
or, let me rephrase, what do I do with these files? :) 10:32
pmichaud masak: (production ready) well, I agree the answer should be more than 2-state "yes/no", but what you have so far seems to be 3-state (ish): "improving/maturing/ready"
Ven eating&
10:32 Ven left
pmichaud and reading the textual list doesn't give me a quick sense of things 10:32
Mouq masak: the content file 10:33
pmichaud or, at least, it's not as impactful as I think it would be if we had the items in a more compact list than the way github currently displays it
masak pmichaud: the ideal is a presentation like that of html5please.com/
pmichaud looking
masak pmichaud: with red/yellow/green for the levels
pmichaud: and more detailed descriptions (with links) if you click to expand
10:33 slavik left
pmichaud masak: okay, that's what I was looking for 10:33
masak Mouq: ooh -- nice.
pmichaud: I'll put that in the description of the github repo -- thanks. 10:34
pmichaud by 'features matrix' i was thinking the "color indicators and concise presentation" more than the "matrix" part.
the textual list doesn't do it for me at the moment
masak ok, then we again agree violently.
pmichaud \o/
10:35 JimmyZ left
pmichaud okay, lunchtime here. 10:35
bbiaw
10:35 chenryn_ left
masak nine++ 10:36
nine++ # just on general principle
10:36 mauke left 10:38 Sqirrel left
masak detrain & 10:42
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dalek c: f4a6590 | Mouq++ | lib/Type/Signature.pod:
Signature.pod tweaks
 10:55
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dalek ast: 3cee096 | usev6++ | S19-command-line/arguments.t:
Add test for RT #112988
 11:16
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=112988
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brrt i'm a bit in two minds about the 'web support' thingy 11:24
what do we want in that regards
mod_perl6?
a psgi server? fastcgi server?
html templating? 11:25
colomon what was nine++'s presentation on?
brrt websockets?
rurban Inline::Perl5 probably
brrt web is big these days, much bigger than CGI
on the other hand..... the 'modern' thing is static html + js + a json api 11:26
which is a much simpler thing in a way
Mouq colomon: niner.name/talks/Inline-Perl5 and niner.name/talks/Inline-Perl5/content
colomon Mouq++ 11:27
dalek c: 5d3615d | Mouq++ | lib/Type/Signature.pod:
Add a bit about destructuring
 11:29
brrt also, i think sergot a gsoc project of that just this summer 11:30
sergot++ i might add... so we should add the results of that to our 'production readiness' thingy
pmurias brrt: a psgi server would use p5? 11:31
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brrt hmm.. yeah, i mean something similar for p6 11:32
it's not like it's this magic idea that we have to find. it's just something we have to agree on
timotimo had noms. good noms. 11:35
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pmurias brrt: we don't have to agree on a single idea 11:37
brrt: having a bunch of options seems like what we want in the long run
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timotimo brrt: websockets will want a bit of implementation work, yeah 11:41
but with "web support" we should do a big bunch of stuff; not only serverside either.
brrt ... run perl6 on the client? please forget that now 11:42
:-p
timotimo m)
bleeehh why do i feel so tired? i've had lots of sleep last night and the night before that :\
FROGGS timotimo: you need moar fresh air? 11:44
brrt json, btw, compresses well 11:45
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brrt pmurias - sure, but that's where diversity and selection are for 11:46
it will never hurt for us to say 'want to use perl6 for web? use @stack'
some people will rant and say '@stack doesn't solve my use case! what an community of $plural-expletive' 11:47
and... make something better
and that's... ok :-)
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dalek kudo/nom: 233cb0b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (7 files):
Remove *.exists

It has been deprecated for > 1 year		 11:51
kudo/nom: 217428c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (9 files):
Remove *.delete

It has been deprecated for > 1 year
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dalek kudo/nom: 764c981 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
Mention removal of .exists|.delete
 11:53
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carlin if you try to call .exists/.delete will the error tell you what you're supposed to use? 11:54
jnthn carlin: We've had it doing that for the last year, iirc.
nine brrt: for web apps, PSGI really is the way to go nowadays 11:55
carlin jnthn: right, but that was the deprecation warning which is now gone 11:56
dalek ast: d1326f2 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-types/deprecations.t:
Tests for deprecated features that were removed
 11:57
lizmat carlin: no, it will just tell you you tried to call a method that does not exist 11:58
brrt nine: yeah, i think so too, it'll just have to be adapted a bit
nine To all: sorry for my slides not being properly HTMLized yet. What's online right now is just what I used for presenting. Didn't have enough time to clean it up. 11:59
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azawawi hi #perl6 12:01
brrt hi azawawi
azawawi reads perlcabal.org/syn/S17.html#Inter-Pr...d_Supplies for the perl6 repl feature
timotimo azawawi: do you know the "EventSource" js thingie? 12:02
azawawi timotimo: example plz? 12:03
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azawawi timotimo: initial ansi color sequence output display are in the latest farabi6, btw 12:04
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timotimo developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/W...ventSource - it's nicer than polling again and again for example 12:04
a much simpler way to push a stream of data from the server to the client 12:05
damn, this toy i made is fun to play with m)
dalek kudo/nom: fcc04eb | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Cool.pm:
Remove ucfirst, it has been deprecated > 1 year
 12:06
jnthn :)
azawawi timotimo: caniuse.com/#search=EventSource
timotimo: doesnt websockets cover that part? 12:07
dalek ast: 512c987 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-types/deprecations.t:
Tests for deprecated ucfirst that were removed
timotimo yes, but you don't have websockets, do you? :) 12:09
azawawi btw, why was IO::Spec changed to $*SPEC. Any reason behind that change?
timotimo: trust me, websockets complicates a web app a lot
timotimo: while building something, do it as ajax and then switch when nearly finished to websockets if needed 12:10
timotimo: and it has its quirks here & there when cross browser support is needed
lizmat azawawi: it was part of a much wider change speeding up IO and have the right attributes for objects live at the right place 12:11
brrt eventsource is a 'good enough for most use cases' version of websockets 12:12
and muuuuch simpler
timotimo and only one direction, not two
azawawi lizmat: i see
lizmat by putting the IO::Spec info in $*SPEC, you can now easily change default file system semantics in a scope
azawawi lizmat: cool thanks for the explanation 12:13
lizmat and it should be better optimizable in the future
azawawi btw, how can i profile perl 6 code under rakudo? 12:14
lizmat --profile 12:15
will generate an HTML file for you to peruse
azawawi cool thanks
im already using --doc=HTML to generate POD for currently selected code in farabi6 12:16
nice i will add that option
im using Farabi (Perl 5, Mojolicious) to develop farabi6 until farabi6 is capable of fully editing its own code :) 12:17
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azawawi brrt: Regarding EventSource, it is good enough until you hit the cross-browser support wall. Please see caniuse.com/#search=EventSource 12:19
dalek kudo-star-daily: 5e688d1 | coke++ | log/MoarVM-version.log:
today (automated commit)
 12:20
brrt fair enough. 12:21
brrt isn't wedded to the idea :-)
it's just a nice inbetween solution
azawawi i will try it though :)
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timotimo this rather simple animation already maxes out 1 of my cores :\ 12:21
azawawi that's what i like about #perl6. Always new ideas
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timotimo at 25fps 12:22
Ven nice
is it web scale?
azawawi im running on an AMD FX-8150 (with only two enabled cores out of 8 available cores) for heat problems... lol 12:23
timotimo m)
azawawi The fan is already at 6k rpm
azawawi mental note next time, buy an i5... 12:24
masak is back from lunch 12:25
what did I miss? did nine unveil Inline::Perl7?
brrt azawawi - i advice cleaning up the fans.. that helped a lot on a machine i had at home 12:26
:-)
buy an i7 :-P
timotimo jnthn: it seems like trying to profile my thingie will explodify with a segfault; rpobably because it does multithreading? 12:27
it actually explodes even before it compiles my custom frame code 12:28
nine masak: use v6-inline; and Perl6::MOP should be the most interesting parts 12:29
timotimo this throttle mechanism looks like our "squish" supply operator
i wonder if we should build a variant of squish that will also somehow plop a "squished this many samey messages" and we'd pretty much immediately have an RLE implementation 12:30
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masak brrt: thanks for your input on the "web support" bit. here's my take: a language in 2014 needs to relate *somehow* to the web. think of languages like Go or Rust. they have libraries and stacks for serving web pages/sites/apps. and that's part of what makes those languages "production ready" (to the extent they are). 12:34
completely agree that there can be several solutions, not just one.
but the sum of those solutions and how stable/useful they are definitely forms a part of the "production readiness" of Perl 6 IMO, at least for a certain type of people. 12:35
I think we've seen that during the Rakudo era of Perl 6's development, that people aim for the web when they're developing things.
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dalek p: e1635d7 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/QRegex/Cursor.nqp:
eliminate two no-ops
 12:36
masak brrt: re Perl 6 on the client: I'm still waiting for that. I have high hopes for pmurias++' work on getting nqp to target JavaScript.
brrt i have a long story to write about the relation between go and rust, by the way
masak even nqp on the client would be pretty cool, actually. 12:37
brrt that would definitively have a cool side yeah :-)
the web is where the (wild) things are
pmichaud std: say v2013.4.5 12:38
camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/W0MHCqFo4M line 1:␤------> say v2013.⏏4.5␤ expecting any of:␤ dotty method or postfix␤ postcircumfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤ postop␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'v2013' used …»
pmichaud aha
lizmat :-)
pmichaud looks like STD and Rakudo agree here about multi-digit version numbers
masak I recognize this failure mode.
we've encountered it before
brrt then again, an ORM is for some people also a necessary thing
pmichaud it's a longest-token-matching issue
masak (not just earlier today)
I bet there is an RT ticket with it somewhere
masak goes hunting for it 12:39
nine: no need to apologize at all -- as soon as I found niner.name/talks/Inline-Perl5/content , I was totally content :P
pmichaud I suspect that v123.10 ends up with "v123" as identifier over 'v1'
masak *nod*
pmichaud because the grammar rule is
token version:sym<v> {
'v' <?before \d> :: <vnum> +% '.' '+'?
}
which means LTM stops at the :: 12:40
masak rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=116016
is that one related?
it's from 2012 12:41
pmichaud yes, it looks exactly the same
masak merges the two tickets
pmichaud I wonder why we need the <?before \d> :: part 12:42
well, <?before \d> is guarding against "v*.3.4" as a version identifier 12:43
I wonder what happens if we get rid of the '::'
FROGGS and the :: commits to that token, no?
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masak brrt: re ORM -- some "Database" section should probably be in there 12:43
FROGGS so it won't try other rules, at least in theory
pmichaud no 12:44
:: commits to an alternation
leont_ I think I could have filled 20 minutes on TAP::Harness if had actually prepared properly. Maybe next time.
pmichaud there are no alternations in the version rule, which means the '::' was intended to stop LTM
brrt but are ORM's really all that relevant in our web-scale world?
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brrt i think it's difficult. sqlite is probably a must-have 12:45
masak brrt: that's why I said "Databases", not "ORMs" :)
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masak brrt: people are going to come to this page asking "will I be able to use Perl 6 for <X>?" 12:45
brrt basically .. do we want a batteries-included approach to it?
FROGGS pmichaud: so the :: only effects using version literals in use/need statements
masak brrt: that question feels orthogonal to me. 12:46
FROGGS pmichaud: but it doesn't help us when parsing a value
masak brrt: the concern isn't "are all these things included?" -- it's "can I do it at all?"
FROGGS because we just have many value candidates like token value:sym<version> { <version> }, but no alternation at all
brrt hmm
nine Speaking of ORM. I should have mentioned, that the stuff I did to make Catalyst usable can be applied to DBIx::Class as well.
masak nine: ooh
brrt you can do everything you want, if you're motivated enough
pmichaud FROGGS: so, in use/need statements there's a need for other identifiers starting with 'v' to be chosen over this one? 12:47
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nine Especially use v6-inline and Perl5Parent 12:47
masak brrt: ok, I'm talking about practically available solutions that an outsider can pick up and use, with the right instructions.
brrt: "follow these steps and you're up and running"
timotimo .o( when i said "perl6 on the client side of the web" i actually meant stuff like LibWWWPerl UserAgent, WWW::Mechanize, PhantomJS, ...)
12:47 Hor|zon left
lizmat leont: not even a lightning talk ? 12:48
masak I'm not talking about the "here are all the pieces, this problem is theoretically solvable but no-one has done it before, you're on your own" kind of possibilities
FROGGS pmichaud: the opposite... in use/need we want to parse versions when we hit a /v\d/, as I understand it
m: use v1234
masak timotimo: ooh! yes, that's important, too.
camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find v1234 in any of: /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6␤»
masak timotimo: we need a different term for that than "client side", I think.
timotimo probably
FROGGS m: use v1234-bar
camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find v1234-bar in any of: /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6␤»
pmichaud FROGGS: how does the :: help that?
masak timotimo: maybe "agent side"? :)
timotimo 134136 timotimo │ but with "web support" we should do a big bunch of stuff; not only serverside either. 12:49
my original message didn't mention "client side" or anything similar :)
FROGGS pmichaud: it would look it down to the alternation that started to match a version, and it would not even try to match a module name
masak oh, it was brrt coming to conclusions. I see :)
FROGGS am I missing something essential? 12:50
pmichaud FROGGS: oh, I see. So following use|need we need a 'v' bareword to not be parsed as a version.
nine masak: I think you are spot on. A year ago I was asking for a "how do I do web dev in Perl 6?" howto. A real step by step guide of what to install, what modules to use and how to put them together to put something online
leont_ lizmat: lightning talk is being written now, that's how I noticed I had too much stuff
FROGGS std: use v1234-bar # though I wonder why that does fail that way in std 12:51
camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot locate module v1234-bar at /tmp/eKOoORPnNn line 1 (EOF):␤------> onder why that does fail that way in std⏏<EOL>␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 138m␤»
FROGGS I *think* it should parsefail a version when :: would work correctly
pmichaud in this case the :: isn't being used to fail a parse
it's being used to prioritize one alternation over another 12:52
lizmat leont_++
FROGGS pmichaud: the -bar in my wrongish version literal should make it fail to parse a version
brrt aha i see
yeah then i agree timotimo :-)
pmichaud FROGGS: in the case of a 'use' statement, it's never attempting to parse a version. (more) 12:53
when you tell "std" to "use v1234-bar", it's trying to locate that (and cannot)
std: use nosuchthing;
camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot locate module nosuchthing at /tmp/3wU6pecHep line 1:␤------> use nosuchthing⏏;␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 137m␤»
pmichaud the error message there has nothing to do with versions (because we aren't parsing a version number) 12:54
FROGGS token statement_control:use { 12:55
|| <version> <?{ substr($<version>.Str,0,2) eq 'v6' }>
|| <version> <?{ substr($<version>.Str,0,2) eq 'v5' }> [
that's a stripped version from STD.pm6
though, the sequential matching does not make sense in combination with ::
12:55 pepl left
pmichaud "use v1234-bar" doesn't match either of those alternations 12:56
neither does "use v1234"
FROGGS when there was a ::> instead of ::, then what I was saying would be correct I think :o)
12:57 Hor|zon joined
FROGGS pmichaud: sorry for the confusion, I had rakudo's <use> implementation in mind 12:57
pmichaud well, rakudo seems to be using | alternation
we should probably switch to ||
FROGGS m: use v1234
camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find v1234 in any of: /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6␤»
FROGGS m: use v1 12:58
camelia ( no output )
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pmichaud I see where the problem is now. 12:58
except I don't see why STD.pm6 uses the ::
FROGGS me neither
pmichaud maybe fossil? 12:59
[Coke] so much to do. so little motivation
FROGGS [Coke]: get a cup of coffee and just start with the first task without thinking of the rest :o)
masak nine: yeah, I'm really really trying to think about this from the perspective of the person who is curious about "how do I <X>, today, in Perl 6?"
pmichaud STD.pm6's <need> statement is using | alternation, though... maybe it needs to be switched to || also 13:00
masak nine: and I'm inspired by html5please, which I like and have used for this kind of purpose many times.
FROGGS ahh
pmichaud what's the meaning of "need v5", ooc? /me looks.
FROGGS you just load v5, without importing anything... and probably without switching the slang 13:01
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pmichaud I wonder if a better formulation would be 13:03
<?before v<[56]> > <version> 13:04
std: use v617;
camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 137m␤»
pmichaud heh
std: use v717;
FROGGS hehe
camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot locate module v717 at /tmp/TYunYMKueo line 1:␤------> use v717⏏;␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 137m␤»
FROGGS std: no v7 13:05
camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 138m␤»
FROGGS \o/
mauke std: use v6v6;
camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Whitespace is required between alphanumeric tokens at /tmp/zMdoyRtdSb line 1:␤------> use v6⏏v6;␤Confused at /tmp/zMdoyRtdSb line 1:␤------> use v6⏏v6;␤ expecting any of:␤ fee…»
azawawi lizmat: ping
mauke deletes v6v6.pm
pmichaud okay. I think using the '::' as LTM control in version is going the wrong way ish... let me see if I can refactor to fix it. 13:06
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lizmat azawawi: pong 13:08
azawawi lizmat: the current deprecated messages are great for non-server processes. I did not see farabi6 deprecation warnings until the server died. When you Ctrl-C, you dont get any deprecation messages on a server process. Only when it dies or segfaults
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leont_ Does anyone know the resolution of the projector? 13:09
nine leont_: full hd
azawawi lizmat: is it by design shown on END { } 13:10
leont_ If my laptop doesn't screw up, I might not have to shorten my lines then :-p
timotimo oh, pepl is not on irc any more, even though i perhaps wanted to reserve a second slot for a lightning talk
lizmat if you want a Control-c to also show deprecations, and handle all END processing, this will work on moar: 13:11
signal(SIGINT).tap( {die} )
it will tap the Control-C and change it into a normal die()
nine leont_: and 100 % of the screen area is actually usable. That's quite a luxury.
lizmat this causing END processing, thus showing the deprecation messages
leont_ You mean unlike Sofia? ;-)
pmichaud my refactor seems to work... spectesting now 13:12
should I patch STD.pm6 also?
leont_ If signals are delayed like in perl5 (I assume they are), tapping them can cause serious delays to the point of it not working if inside a piece of C code
lizmat yup, YMMV :-) 13:13
timotimo FROGGS: did jnthn finish his work? :)
FROGGS pmichaud: TimToady would be happy I guess :o)
timotimo i can't sneak any peeks at his monitor any more now :(
lizmat it really depends on how libuv does it underneath
pmichaud FROGGS: I'd have to figure out how to spectest STD.pm6
FROGGS timotimo: he's not hacking anymore for a while now... but I can't tell :o)
timotimo OK
FROGGS pmichaud: I have now idea if that's possible at all 13:14
azawawi lizmat: thanks for info. i will try it now. im using MoarVM for development
timotimo ooooh did these people just bring gratuitous amounts of candy? :D
pmichaud FROGGS: looks like "make snaptest" 13:15
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Ven .tell masak www.cs.cmu.edu/~aldrich/papers/ecoop14-tsls.pdf if you havn't read it 13:17
yoleaux Ven: I'll pass your message to masak.
Ven or anybody interested in composable reader macros. 13:18
masak is right here :)
yoleaux 13:17Z <Ven> masak: www.cs.cmu.edu/~aldrich/papers/ecoop14-tsls.pdf if you havn't read it
dalek p-js: 9de723d | (Pawel Murias)++ | t/nqp/53-knowhow.t:
Fix test to check for that the knowhow name is correct.
masak Ven: thanks :)
Ven well, I wasn't sure :)
timotimo yes! they did!
masak Ven: oh yes, I've seen this one before.
Ven: I was intrigued by it, and I think we have some learnings for slangs in there. 13:19
Ven masak: have you seen sugarJ and others?
masak Ven: notably, they manage to combine MOP and slangs in interesting ways.
Ven: have not seen sugarJ.
Ven oh and I realized I never talked about idris/agda-like "patterns"... Which are interested because they are in a somewhat more disciplined style (since the language itself is *VERY* strongly typed)
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masak among problems that I don't have: a lack of source material and things to process. :) 13:22
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masak anyway, I think the central idea of "type-specific language" in that paper is very much a kind of distinctiveness something that Perl 6 should add to its own. 13:23
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colomon I ran another smoke test after lizmat++ removed .exists and .delete, and Adventure::Engine, IO::Socket::SSL, IoC (???), and OpenSSL all started failing, presumably because of that change. 13:24
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BSc_tadzik Inversion of Control, a Bread::Board like thingy 13:25
pretty nice
japhb Conjecture: perl6-bench isn't perfect, but it's good enough for people to use and add tests as desired; what we really need now is serious concurrency stress testing, with the goal of trying to find relatively small programs that can trigger segfault/crash/incorrect results/etc. on r-j or r-m. 13:26
Thoughts on said conjecture?
moritz what's the relation between stress testing and perl6-bench?
colomon seems like … what moritz++ said
(two correct thoughts that I don't understand the relationship between) 13:27
japhb Oh, sorry. "my time"
moritz oh
+1 13:28
japhb Meaning, it seems more valuable for me to switch my hacking focus.
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Ven m: my $a = 5; say 9x$a 13:34
camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
moritz Ven: need whitespace around alphanumeric ops 13:36
Ven m: my $a = 5; say 9 x$a
camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«99999␤»
Ven moritz: some whitespace :)
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masak colomon: looking at Adventure::Engine now. 13:39
moritz golven!
masak golven?
colomon japhb: +1 13:40
masak yup, three instances of .delete
moritz masak: the German word for "to golf" is "golfen", so Ven does golven
(actually "Golf spielen", but "golfen" coloquially is OK) 13:41
13:41 Hor|zon joined
masak aha :) 13:41
in Swedish, "golven" just means "the floors"... so I was confused. :) 13:42
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masak colomon: fix'd. github.com/masak/Adventure-Engine/...cf559ac4e8 13:44
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colomon masak++ 13:45
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Ven masak: I'm pretty good at doing the floors, as well 13:58
(doing as in, cleaning, I guess?)
masak :P
lizmat++ # haven't really paid attention to the S16 editing, but I'm reading it now and it looks gorgeous
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Ven lizmat++ # reasons 13:59
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dalek kudo/nom: fd017a0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Any.pm:
Remove KeySet/KeyBag, deprecated > 1 year ago
 14:03
Ven profiling my game of life o/ 14:04
masak .oO( aren't we all ) :P
lizmat colomon: yuck
mephinet hi! first time looking at perl6, using perl6maven.com/tutorial/ 14:05
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mephinet one thing I can't figure out (at first sight at least) - is the example in perl6maven.com/tutorial/perl6-strin...ons-substr 14:05
masak mephinet: welcome!
mephinet what does $z = substr $s, 4, *-11; mein?
^ mean
colomon launches another smoke test
masak mephinet: "substring of $s, from position 4 to position 11 from the end"
mephinet how is *-11 parsed? 14:06
masak mephinet: `*-11` means "whatever minus 11"
mephinet why not just -11
masak mephinet: and the "whatever" bit depends on context
FROGGS mephinet: * is magically "converted" to the amount of chars of the string
Ven welcome mephinet ! :)
masak mephinet: because strings don't have negative indices :)
lizmat colomon: OpenSSL installs fine for me
colomon lizmat: hmm.
we still have occasional transiant failures, could have been that, I guess.
masak mephinet: a more serious answer is that Perl 5 does it that way, and it's turned out to have some worrisome/unfortunate corner cases. 14:07
mephinet masak, FROGGS: thanks for the explanation...
Ven (it's just a closuuure)
masak mephinet: Python also uses negative numbers for indexing from the end.
mephinet see, that's why it presents as WhateverCode.new()
masak mephinet: it's subtle, but the "discontinuity" around 0 is problematic.
mephinet masak: yeah, I know this from Python, too
thanks, guys, I'll keep on reading in the direction of closures... 14:08
jnthn m: my $x = *-11; say $x(53) # isolated example
camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«42␤»
FROGGS mephinet: have fun :o) 14:09
mephinet thanks, jnthn! (you're sitting five meters to my left) 14:10
jnthn oh :)
FROGGS *g*
jnthn Small world... :)
Ven and you're sitting five meters to mine, mephinet
FROGGS <-- is really grinning *g*
Ven same here :-)
jnthn netcra^Wjnthn confirms it!
mauke I think I can see you
FROGGS ohh, 10m already makes for a middle sized world 14:11
masak especially on a logarithmic scale
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dalek p-js: 93f12ae | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/ (4 files):
Deserialize a KnowHOWREPR.

Make .HOW.name work on knowhows.		 14:14
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Ven Reify is responsible for 1/4 of my GoL run 14:15
uh-h
pmurias: do you already have containers implemented?
timotimo japhb: i already forgot what you look like :o
FROGGS Ven: that'll hopefully change in one direction or the other :o)
Ven I hope so. It's just .map I think 14:16
timotimo japhb: you're not staying for the hackathon?
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Ven sorry 30% of it is .reify. 23% on ListIter, 7% on mapiter 14:18
+4% gimme +another reify 4% hahah
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dalek ast: 39b4869 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-types/deprecations.t:
Remove test for obsolete deprecations
 14:19
jnthn $dom.process: PlaneSettingPlan, 1, *.choose-seat('2A', 'jnthn');$dom.process: PlaneSettingPlan, 1, *.choose-seat('2A', 'jnthn');
colomon gave up on building Rakudo on the PowerPC G3 iMac after about 70 hours of "stage parse"
jnthn oops
FROGGS hehe 14:20
jnthn should not lean on the paste button :)
FROGGS colomon: you need a faster hard disk when you only have 256MB RAM :o)
colomon FROGGS: are you implying I need to switch the 2001 iMac to using an SSD? ;) 14:21
colomon is actually impressed at how well the machine runs when it's not swapping madly. 14:22
FROGGS colomon: *g*
I have no idea :o)
BSc_tadzik back then computers were slower, but the software was faster :)
dalek line-Perl5: e39f4c9 | nine++ | / (2 files):
Allow subclassing an existing P5 object.

Sometimes we have already an instance of the P5 class (e.g. a Catalyst controller) that we want to subclass in P6. So allow passing the parent to the constructor instead of insisting in creating a new object there.		 14:23
nine Ah, fells good to be committing again :)
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timotimo nine: i hear you have the t440p 14:23
it has a discrete graphics card in it, doesn't it?
nine timotimo: not mine. I made sure to not have to suffer nvidia. 14:24
timotimo: IOW it's optional
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timotimo ah 14:25
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FROGGS pmichaud: FYI, the version parsing oddness is identical across backends 14:37
dalek line-Perl5: bb47fec | nine++ | / (2 files):
Support can on wrapped Perl 6 objects

This allows to call $p6obj->can in Perl 5 and get a sensible result.		 14:42
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FROGGS jnthn: okay, the grammar candidates weirdness I mentioned earlier is fixed indeed: github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/501575...bd82c6f312 14:50
so, the version oddness is just back to normal oddness 14:51
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jnthn phew...ish :) 14:52
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dalek line-Perl5: e30e685 | nine++ | / (3 files):
Allow modules loaded by Perl 5 to be written in Perl 6.

Support use v6-inline; in Perl 5 code to pass a module's code back to Perl 6 which then creates a Perl 6 module of it.
This may improve use cases where a Perl 5 framework autoloads modules that may now be written in Perl 6.		 14:54
line-Perl5: 951c776 | nine++ | / (3 files):
Fix instancing classes created by v6-inline;

Needs current Rakudo HEAD. Thanks to jnthn++ for implementing GLOBAL::
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timotimo jnthn: oh btw, the AUTOGEN thing might actually not be NativeCall's fault 14:56
which confuses me even more
jnthn oh...
timotimo: Where're you getting it? 14:57
timotimo i shall investigate it properly
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Ven okayy, so my perl Configure.pl --gen-moar did not gen moar 14:57
FROGGS Ven: so it thinks it is up-to-date 14:58
Ven: try unlink install/bin/moar
Ven it probably does... but it's a 09.14...
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timotimo so i'm trying to call $cairo_context.fill(1); (which is not supposed to work, as fill would only accept no arguments or a named argument "preserve" 14:59
Cannot call 'AUTOGEN'; none of these signatures match:
:(Cairo::Context: *%_)
:(Cairo::Context: Any :preserve($preserve)!, *%_)
now i've tried it outside the EVALd code and it still says "AUTOGEN" 15:00
Ven %)
15:00 ecocode left
timotimo maybe a precompilation issue?! 15:00
jnthn That'd be kinda odd...multis are quite common.
timotimo aye. there's no multi method in GTK-Simple, so i will have to make some up 15:01
jnthn Imore meant "in lots of other modules"
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jnthn And probably woulda seen it come up already 15:02
So yeah, something...unusual.
timotimo well, now i'm using -I ../cairo/lib and it gives me the method name
er... actually ... a different error though 15:03
aye, with -I ../blah/lib i get Cannot call 'stroke'; none of these signatures match: 15:04
without -I blah/lib i do indeed get AUTOGEN 15:05
FROGGS pmichaud: btw: 15:06
'v' <?[\d]> $<vstr>=[<vnum>+ % '.' '+'?] # works for v1, not for v12
'v' <?[0..9]> $<vstr>=[<vnum>+ % '.' '+'?] # works for v12, not for v1
pmichaud FROGGS: interesting. There's clearly a problem with Rakudo's current implementation of LTM and zero-width assertions, I think 15:07
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pmichaud 'v' $vstr=[<vnum>+ % '.' '+'?] # works for v1 and v12 15:07
but also allows v*.3.7 15:08
mephinet say :r ;
makes my perl6 (rakudo) segfault. Something to report? Or rather something to simply not do?
FROGGS mephinet: how recent is your rakudo?
JimmyZ m: say :r
mephinet This is perl6 version 2014.09 built on parrot 6.8.0 revision 0 15:09
pmichaud 'v' <![*]> $vstr=[<vnum>+ % '.' '+'?] # should do _exactly_ the same as above for v1 and v12, but doesn't.
camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
FROGGS perl6-m -e 'say :r ;'
Unexpected named parameter 'r' passed
mephinet: that works for me...
jnthn Same for me 15:10
And REPL doesn't explode either
Oh...but we're trying it on MoarVM
pmichaud note that rakudo on parrot's repl is is broken
FROGGS he's running a script (I sit next to him luckily) 15:11
pmichaud okay then, that's not it :)
mephinet code to reproduce: paste.scsys.co.uk/429141 15:12
works for FROGGS, I'll just live with it for now... 15:13
jnthn Works here too, fwiw
pmichaud I think I have a parrot build available.. just a sec 15:14
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pmichaud I get the segfault. 15:15
(in parrot)
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FROGGS yeah, I saw it too right now, though that's not a parrot debug build 15:16
pmurias Ven: re containers, not yet. NQP doesn't use containers 15:17
Ven pmurias: oh right. you only have := 15:18
pmurias: ... do you know how you're gonna do it?
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pmurias the only solution I can think of is having a container object 15:20
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mephinet is rebuilding parrot 15:21
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timotimo .o( or get MoarVM instead if you can ) 15:22
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jnthn mephinet: You might find Moar a faster/more stable experience... 15:22
pmurias: Well, every other backend does that way too :)
Ven pmurias: right. yes :( 15:23
pmichaud paste.scsys.co.uk/429142
golfed
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pmichaud that gives me a segfault 15:24
FROGGS Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x00007ffff2c0d767 in find_in_cache (interp=interp@entry=0x60f050, cache=0xb936320, capture=capture@entry=0xb94a930, num_args=num_args@entry=0) at multi_dispatch.c:71
71 return cache->arity_caches[num_args - 1].results[i];
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timotimo perl6-m --ll-exception -e 'use NativeCall; sub gtk_source_view_new() returns OpaquePointer is native('gtksourceview-3.0') {*}; say gtk_source_view_new()' 15:24
Cannot invoke null object
15:24 Hor|zon joined
timotimo it seems like the exception comes from inside the world 15:24
inside finish_code_object 15:25
mephinet timotimo, jnthn: will try moarvm too, in the evening (unless our dinner prohibits further hacking)
timotimo so it's using compile_in_context somehow? o_O
jnthn timotimo: Maybe it's the trait? 15:27
timotimo: but no idea why it'd fail... 15:28
timotimo paste.scsys.co.uk/429143
Ven Ooh.
I just realized LiveScript actually has something like perl6's junctions!
and it's awful. 15:29
jnthn timotimo: Yeah, it's applying the trait at the time
timotimo ooh the NSA
we gotta beat that
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jnthn oh, hah... :) 15:33
timotimo um 15:34
yeah
Ven heh.
pmurias Ven: I feel containers are something that will need to be optimized at a higher level static analysis pass
timotimo it's not so clever to have the single-quoted string end in the middle of the -e
Ven wants to write `my @a{Months; 1..28}` :DDD
timotimo Cannot locate native library 'gtksourceview-3.0'
that's what i get now
how do i tell "is native" about libgtksourceview-3.0.so.0? 15:35
pmurias Ven: link for livescript junctions?
timotimo without having .so in there?
Ven pmurias: it's ... not really documented. it's under the match experimental feature
timotimo oh?
Ven pmurias: basically, you can do `(f and g) args`
or `(f or g) args`
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timotimo one could say we *are* divining the concept of eagerness 15:36
Ven `sink all hyper lazy silo {}` # Valid Perl6™ 15:37
nine Good: I know where the segfault shown in my talk comes from and I have a trivial fix for it. 15:39
timotimo so all sink hyper lazy given silo?
lizmat nine++
Ven oh :D
nine Bad: I fail to write a test for this :/ It should always fail, but it seems, sometimes Perl 5 copes with it.
Ven nine++
timotimo what cool thing did nine end up doing this time?
not saying he doesn't deserve praise anyway 15:40
Ven .o( we actually just want him to maintain our perl 6 catalyst applications ) 15:41
timotimo %)
i'll suspend my laptop now 15:42
15:42 FROGGS left
mauke I,I "strictly lazy" 15:43
Ven okay, dinner time, but the git didn't finish
sigh.
15:43 Ven left
chenryn where is the latest perl6-bench result? 15:43
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[Coke] the parrot build is hosed on the daily run. 15:51
it's been stuck in stage parse.
er, stage optimize, sorry
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[Coke] according to htop, that ./perl6-p command has been running for nearly 4 hours. 15:52
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dalek rl6-roast-data: f80f98e | coke++ | / (4 files):
today (automated commit)
 16:07
pmurias does it make sense for me to work on a HACK or a LHF (low hanging fruit) docs for nqp-js? 16:16
bartolin [Coke]: I had the same problem (parrot not building) since five days: github.com/usev6/perl6-roast-data/..._rates.csv 16:17
[Coke]: But I'm building with --gen-parrot=master since only that builds on freebsd. I hoped the problem would disappear when this PR is merged: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/320 16:18
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bartolin [Coke]: but I didn't look closer yet 16:20
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japhb chenryn: If you look in the irclog, you can find some perl6-bench urls posted by timotimo, which I think are the most recent publicly posted results. 16:35
Ven_ pmurias: what would be the next thing a currently-outsider could do for nqp-js? 16:36
16:36 Hor|zon left
Ven_ pmurias: (maybe something specific from the TODO) 16:36
japhb chenryn: We should have something do runs daily and plot the results in arewefastyet form (which is what I designed the history function of perl6-bench for), but right now I don't think anyone has resources they can dedicate to that task. :-(
chenryn well, how did timotimo determine whether to bench or not in one day? for weekly? start release? or just "seem this commit has a large improve"> 16:41
japhb timotimo: Not to speak for him, but the most common thing people do is "every release, plus nom/HEAD as of the current date", and people are more likely to do the nom/HEAD runs at the end of a day of performance hacking, or when there's a reasonable question about whether an optimization for one thing makes other tests worse. 16:46
Er, chenryn: Not to speak for timotimo, ...
I'd love to have daily or per-commit runs, but ENOHARDWARE 16:47
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japhb wanders off to dinner 16:47
&
Ven_ same for us I guess then 16:48
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azawawi farabi6 with ANSI colors output pane support img.vim-cn.com/6b/55f3f2a04aec25a1e...419766.png 20:08
[Coke] man, it takes forever just to delete directories on host08. 20:13
wonder if there -is- some strange IO config regarding disk access.
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timotimo t.h8.lv/p6bench/2014-10-10-huge_history.html 20:18
this contains almost all of 2014 for rakudo-parrot, rakudo-moar and a few bits of rakudo-moar-jit
moritz [Coke]: non-cached IO is very slow, yes :( 20:19
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azawawi wonders how to generate a p6doc index 20:23
itz p6doc-index build 20:25
I think the p6doc -f lookup is currently broken .. It did work a few weeks back
itz is intending to look at it RSN 20:26
timotimo hoelzro: did you know you can have a "sub MAIN_HELPER($retval) is export { }" in your Subcommander module and replace the whole logic of finding nameds vs positionals and generating the usage? 20:27
azawawi itz: i noticed that and the index file is an empty hash 20:28
itz I was getting the index populated correctly
(under rakudobrew .. p6doc-index list returns results correctly) 20:30
moritz just learned about the open 0; print <0> quine trick in p5 20:32
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gtodd moritz: thanks to APW ? 20:41
moritz gtodd: thanks to reddit 20:42
pyrimidine azawawi: I could easily seeing farabi6 being extendable to lots of cool things; e.g. ipython notebook
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pyrimidine I should say: similar to ipython notebook 20:44
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azawawi pyrimidine: it is going into that direction. May later #PDL integration :) 20:44
pyrimidine azawawi: Nice! 20:45
[Coke] is host08 a virtual box? 20:47
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azawawi perl6: my @dirs = IO::Spec.splitdir($*EXECUTABLE); 20:49
std: my @dirs = IO::Spec.splitdir($*EXECUTABLE); 20:50
camelia ( no output )
..rakudo-parrot fd017a: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared name:␤ 'IO::Spec' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 141m␤»
azawawi moar: my @dirs = IO::Spec.splitdir($*EXECUTABLE);
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azawawi rakudo-moar: my @dirs = IO::Spec.splitdir($*EXECUTABLE); 20:50
camelia ( no output )
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Ven \o 20:56
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hoelzro_phone timotimo: I did know that, but I wanted to make sure that Subcommander was not rakudo specific, and I think I wanted features that MAIN_HELPER didn't provide 20:57
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azawawi lizmat: ping 20:59
itz azawawi: probably still at AWP dinner
^ APW 21:00
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lizmat itz azawawi Ven o/ 21:01
Ven \o
lizmat back in my room, but about to go to bed
Ven no, she wasn't
lizmat azawawi pong
Ven hehe actually, timo got back to the hotel, so I needed to run back 21:02
because I forgot my own key..
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azawawi lizmat: I was wondering why un-deprecate a deprecated thing and then i read the commit comment github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c3...3aa44ad488 :) 21:04
lizmat: i build rakudo a lot and was trying the Ctrl-C trap solution and suddenly perl6 didnt complain lol 21:05
lizmat: so not a big deal. Sorry for the ping. 21:06
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lizmat sleep& 21:14
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dalek c: ecd4aca | (Steve Mynott)++ | bin/p6doc:
unbreak example
 21:21
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itz azawawi: thats one issue fixed .. I suspect you are seeing a path issue which I shall look at another day 21:22
azawawi itz: thanks
itz++
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tony-o BSc_tadzik: does panda's Installer.pm the thing that builds the .moar files? 21:45
BSc_tadzik tony-o: that's builder 21:46
installer only copies stuff
builder responsible for appropriate stuff to land in blib, in appropriate form
for .pm files that's turning them into .moar
tony-o is there a way to preserve the build log from panda ? 21:48
BSc_tadzik: i'm getting a .moar file that behaves differently from just a PP .pm6. I'm trying to run the .moar manually and getting an exception that i'm not getting/seeing with panda 21:50
the .moar build ^
BSc_tadzik PP? 21:55
tony-o pure perl6
actually it works if i manually rebuild the mbc, it fails with panda
2e7767b291587394255216deb5ed88b0 Pandapack.pm6.moar 21:56
c65ef5aac476a52044c74a30aea69da2 Pandapack.pm6.moarvm2
first one is built manually, second is built via panda (both with the same build command, I hacked panda Builder to echo the actual command run and rebootstrapped) 21:57
BSc_tadzik wow 21:58
tony-o wow @ md5sums or the result?
i feel like i'm taking crazy pills for the last 3 days
BSc_tadzik well, md5sums first
tony-o moarvm2 is 4 bytes larger 21:59
BSc_tadzik but well, if you ran exactly the same command as panda did and got a different result, I don't think it's panda's fault
something is super weird
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tony-o yea i'm not accusing panda of anything, i just don't know where to go to get better info 22:06
to whoever needs it
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tony-o it's very consistent though 22:07
does it happen for you? I'm building the .pm6 included with pandapack, here: github.com/tony-o/perl6-pandapack 22:08
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BSc_tadzik I'll check in the morning, now I need some sleeps :) 22:14
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BSc_tadzik thanks for letting me know 22:14
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arnsholt tony-o: If the size delta is only four bytes, it could very well be that the only difference is an inserted four-byte thing 22:22
So maybe you could diff them? I don't think diff likes binary files, but if you diff the hexdumps, it should be pretty easy to see if there are many or few differences 22:23
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ajr_ cmp tells you where there's a difference in binaries. 22:47
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tony-o cmp diffs them at char 53 line 2 22:50
i don't really know what to do with that info
i can see if they're different after that too 22:51
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tony-o hex dump diffs reveal the files are pretty different 22:53
arnsholt tony-o: It's pretty useless to us mere mortals
But hopefully it'll be useful info to the likes of jnthn
Who actually know the bytecode format =) 22:54
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tony-o i can replicate the issue on my macbook 22:54
.tell BSc_tadzik gist.github.com/tony-o/b8eca866073128527c15 22:57
yoleaux tony-o: I'll pass your message to BSc_tadzik.
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