»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, std:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by masak on 12 May 2015.
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timotimo that seems like a worthwhile optimization 00:38
ugexe quick blog ugexe.com/multiplexing-stdout-from-...processes/
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timotimo ugexe: why is your longest-basename so complicated? 00:40
why not just .max(:by(*.chars))?
m: <a bb ccc ddd 11 22 33 4444>.max(:by(*.chars))
camelia ( no output )
timotimo m: <a bb ccc ddd 11 22 33 4444>.max(:by(*.chars)).say
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«ddd␤»
timotimo that's not the right one
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dalek ast: 0b3aa5b | skids++ | S02-types/ (5 files):
Unfudge tests that were failing for the wrong reason.
 00:41
timotimo m: <a bb ccc ddd 11 22 33 4444>.max(*.chars).say
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«4444␤»
ugexe heh i know there were better options, but after a few minutes of trying more elegant "solutions" that didnt work i just went with the ol reduce 00:42
timotimo there we go
the max method takes it as a positional
what do you mean by "catch a signal from key strokes"? 00:43
ugexe like alt+1 00:45
timotimo ah
we do have a termios (or something?) module
ugexe lucky for me no external dependencies or nativecall stuff are both goals 00:48
timotimo oh 00:53
so you don't really have a way to turn off echoing from the terminal
other than that, capturing such keystrokes wouldn't be a problem
you could just blockingly read from stdin in a start { } blocks
ugexe i think there is a bug in $*IN right now regarding that 00:54
timotimo oh :(
ugexe echoing i can possibly work around using \r or \b
timotimo except apparently \r turns into \n on windows >_<
ugexe yea, i had to rewrite my statusbar thing to use \b because of that... what a pita 00:55
jvm windows handles \r ok though 00:56
b2gills ugexe: you only updated the first occurrence of `@basenames.reduce({ $^a.chars > $^b.chars ?? $^a !! $^b })`
ugexe must be cached... i changed it separately but immediately after 00:57
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ugexe not really sure how cloudflare works 00:58
b2gills I wondered, yes it is fixed
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colomon Too many symbols provided for categorical of type infix; needs only 1 ??? 01:08
timotimo do you have a space in your infix:<foo bar>? 01:09
timotimo disappears into bed 01:10
dalek kudo-star-daily: 39d509a | coke++ | log/ (9 files):
today (automated commit)
 01:11
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colomon timotimo++ # indeed, that was it. certainly didn’t mean to type it, and didn’t notice it was there in the middle of the runes. ;) 02:14
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skids .tell hoelzro RE RT#125657 the example test.pl overrides Exception.gist, which is what prints out backtraces, which is why you do not see backtraces. (override .message instead). 04:36
yoleaux skids: I'll pass your message to hoelzro.
synbot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=125657
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skids locally: perl6 -e 'sub a { try die("foo"); fail($!) }; a(); 1;' 05:03
foo
in sub a at -e:1
in block <unit> at -e:1
Actually thrown at:
in block <unit> at -e:1
\o/ 05:04
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nwc10 dear #perl6, if someone could write a version of prove that's better than Perl 5's, that would be Awesome. KTHXBAI 05:34
to clarify "better" - Perl 5's maxes out a CPU core on the TAP parser, when trying to multiplex more than (about) 9 tests running in parallel 05:35
anyway, the serious bit is "I'd hope that it's viable, and I don't think that I'd be the only person using it" 05:36
ugexe depends what you think of as viable. you could not do that for jvm yet for instance 05:41
well, not running parallel tests
otherwise sure 05:42
nwc10 I'm not sure why not. The thing runnig the tests "just" needs to spawn $n processes with output piped back, and then multiplex reading from their file handles.
but anyway, MoarVM is more interesting to me, as its startup is better
dalek line-Perl5: f7b4564 | hoelzro++ | Build.pm:
Detect perls not configured with a shared library

Inline::Perl5 can only work if perl was configured with useshrplib; if a perl without this configuration option is used, the user gets a host of compiler errors that they may or may not understand. Bailing out early in the build process tells the user exactly what is going on, and what they need to do to fix it.		 05:43
line-Perl5: 309a6cb | niner++ | Build.pm:
Merge pull request #35 from hoelzro/master

Detect perls not configured with a shared library Thanks to hoelzro++
ugexe because if you try to pass that pipe to another thread it will break on jvm 05:44
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RabidGravy morning! 07:06
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RabidGravy struggling to golf this gist.github.com/jonathanstowe/a76c...1f0a218824 I may just RT it as is 07:49
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cdc ugexe++ # blog post + creating a parallelized perl6 package manager 08:20
tony-o++ # too, creating a parallelized perl6 package manager
brrt waitwhatdidimiss 08:22
yoleaux 21 Jul 2015 22:11Z <japhb> brrt: I don't understand -- were you saying you liked the wording of S27 SYNOPSIS item 2 ("kind, positive member of our community") or did *not* like it? And if the latter, what would you prefer?
brrt .tell japhb i like it, i'm playing devils advocate for a bit
yoleaux brrt: I'll pass your message to japhb.
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brrt .tell japhb it's an implicit assumption that everyone *can* be a positive, kind member, and that's not really true, e.g. the TempleOS guy 08:23
yoleaux brrt: I'll pass your message to japhb.
brrt .tell meisl if you want to ask questions, i'm typically available between 07:00 UTC and 15:00 UTC :-) 08:24
yoleaux brrt: I'll pass your message to meisl.
brrt also, i'm not that easily bothered, except by my own errorous code :-P 08:28
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RabidGravy doesn't know what to do next 08:36
moritz RabidGravy: world domination!
RabidGravy I already rule the world, it's just the propaganda organisation has let me down a bit 08:37
masak antenoon, #perl6 08:38
RabidGravy marnin 08:39
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brrt \o masak 08:42
jnthn morning, #perl6
yoleaux 21 Jul 2015 22:55Z <TimToady> jnthn: on average, the lexers visit each character in the setting about 4.3 times, due to relexing at each level of proto/alternation (and that's not counting the extra pass to actually match the data), so I suspect we can speed up the parser considerably by not rerunning sublexers when a superlexer already determined how the sublexer would turn out
jnthn .tell TimToady Wow, yes...also if we figure out what bits of the declaratively matched stuff we need not run procedurally. If you have a good idea how to represent that and get the NFA runner itself to collect the info, I can probably figure out how to pass the info on downwards... 08:43
yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to TimToady.
jnthn .tell TimToady where "represent that" is the fates of the sublexers...
yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to TimToady.
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RabidGravy I think I may take a crack at a libsamplerate binding, nice simple API and it's either going to be really quick and easy or it's going to cause everything to go on fire 08:43
jnthn, morning! 08:44
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RabidGravy jnthn, does gist.github.com/jonathanstowe/a76c...1f0a218824 have enough to put in an RT for a possible pre-compilation bug? Tricky to golf 08:47
jnthn RabidGravy: Do you have a simple usage example of how using OO::Monitors can trigger this? 08:49
RabidGravy: Or is that still "the whole dependent module"? 08:50
(I don't expect you to golf OO::Monitors; that's mine, and a MOP module...)
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RabidGravy It's tricky because it only manifests when the module that uses OO::Monitors (Libshout) *and* another one are precompiled :-\ 08:52
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jnthn Oh... :( 08:54
That does make it more "fun"... 08:55
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RabidGravy the *actual* code that gave rise to that is github.com/jonathanstowe/Audio-Lib...ile-encode 09:01
works perfectly otherwise
jnthn OK, then it's going to be quite a bug hunt for me, I fear... 09:05
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cdc RabidGravy: maybe your problem is just another manifestation of RT #125634 09:11
synbot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=125634
RabidGravy I'm sure it is reproducible in a smaller bit of code, I'm just buggered to know where to start :-)
jnthn cdc: In the best case, yeah. (Best in so far as "I've already started golfing that one") 09:12
cdc strange, searching for "REPR: NULL, cs = 0" in rt.perl.org returns nothing 09:14
whereas searching for "REPR: NULL, cs =" returns one item
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RabidGravy I did one last night, which was *not* pre-compilation associated 09:15
which is as far as I can tell "apply_trait not reporting type not found and crapping out instead" 09:17
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brrt when is the SPW actually? 09:20
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jnthn Switzerland 09:21
oh
Late August
RabidGravy LObster!
jnthn should learn to read
brrt i see... really just a few days before YAPC::EU
jnthn Yeah
brrt switzerland is time-associated :-0 09:22
:-)
brrt should learn to type
jnthn Very much so...
Switzerland and Japan are the only countries where I'd consider setting my watch by the time a train leaves... :)
xiaomiao China is doing pretty well too 09:25
possibly because the highspeed train network is a military asset
jnthn xiaomiao: I can imagine that... The last time I did a lot of train travel in China was before they'd built all the highspeed trains :) 09:26
moritz wouldn't trust the German military to run trains on time
xiaomiao moritz: but they are family-friendly
jnthn xiaomiao: But it still all ran pretty well. :)
xiaomiao jnthn: the HST system works very nicely
RabidGravy on the other hand no-one could do a worse job than Southeastern Trains here
jnthn xiaomiao: Yeah, I want to go try it some time :) 09:27
RabidGravy: Connex? :)
xiaomiao RabidGravy: Belgium ? :D
jnthn Sweden? :)
brrt a very vulnerable military target, though
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brrt s/target/asset/ 09:28
RabidGravy jnthn, Connex yeah, but it's all the same people just dfferent ownership
:)
jnthn Ah, that old trick... 09:29
masak .oO( That Old Trick -- brought to you by... Connex ) 09:30
jnthn brought to you *very late* by Connex :P 09:31
masak late as in "the late Dentarthurdent"
mathw hello 09:33
jnthn o/ mathw 09:34
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mathw I am horribly out of touch with Perl 6 - I've been learning Elm. How's it going? 09:35
brrt awesome 09:36
how is elm? :-)
jnthn++ is fixing lots of issues, masak++ is reporting more
jnthn brrt++ is making our JIT betterer 09:37
brrt module ecosystem is growing quickly by more authors than i can think of
more importantly, said authors are starting to really scratch their own itches, implying that they find it useful for 'productionish' work
jnthn We have NFG! (If you were away long enough to not know...)
brrt oh yes, we do
jnthn And concurrency is less crashy 09:38
And we're O(week-ish) off having packed native multi-dim arrays :)
brrt \o/
i suspect i'm O(week-ish) off from having the new JIT algorithm in place; i'm actually more excited about what becomes possible with the new IR than I am about immediate resultsI expect 09:40
we can actually implement all the fancy algorithms now :-)
jnthn :) 09:41
I'm keen to see how I can use it to JIT the multi-dim array access things :)
brrt .... i'm fairly sure we can work that out
arnsholt jnthn: Speaking of NFG, is that implemented on JVM too, or only on Moar?
jnthn arnsholt: Only Moar 09:43
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brrt re: what-is-professionalism; i think being a professional also implies some form of public responsibilty 09:47
masak well, responsibility towards something or something for sure 09:48
brrt also related to: not being an asshole in public
masak why did I immediately think of Linus Torvalds when you said that? :)
brrt i don't know
masak maybe he doesn't qualify as a professional. he's sort of an accidentally elevated amateur in a sense.
mathw Okay that's awesome news 09:49
brrt but it's probably a reasonable example, although i'm not sure the linux kernel mailing list fits the usual definition of public, either
mathw You all rock
brrt we try to :-)
masak mathw: it's nice to have you come visit us :>
mathw: I'm curious about Elm, too
mathw brrt: Elm is pretty cool. It's quite limited in library terms though, the standard libraries are missing things that you just really really want. 09:50
I've found ways around all of them, but not having date arithmetic was rather problematic
But once you get going it's a beautiful way to write complex client-side browser apps
And I think it's just going to get better 09:52
I had several revelatory moments as I was able to combine what I'd made into bigger things with almost no effort
The kind of promise people have been making for decades and failing to deliver
brrt looks quite nice, yes 09:54
although i would be *very* suprised if you'll never get caught in some way 09:55
masak brrt: could you elaborate on that? 09:59
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RabidGravy all this talk of elm had me confused with ye ancieunte maile cliente 10:04
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brrt masak: i mean, it'd be very surprising if elm somehow prevents abstractions from leaking 10:05
it'll start hurting at some time. just, hopefully, quite a bit later than the alternatives
RabidGravy brrt, WRT to scratching itches I concluded some months ago that it would be better to make github.com/jonathanstowe/Emitria in P6 but there are a megashedload of yaks to shave ;-) 10:08
masak brrt: that sounds like an overly pessimistic take on "all abstractions leak".
brrt: I don't know enough about Elm in particular to defend it all that well, but -- clearly some abstractions work much, much better than others 10:09
RabidGravy it's a subset of "all software is shit" really
brrt i'm sometimes overly pessimistic, i'll admit that
:-)
i haven't tried it, either, though :-) 10:10
masak or "cynical", I should say
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brrt i'm sorry for that. i didn't mean it that way 10:10
it was a bit of a residual instinctive reaction to javascript transpilers 10:11
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mathw I have yet to see how Elm abstractions can leak unless you choose to make them leaky 10:13
I think there's a risk that you might decide to make them leaky because you're not familiar enough with the abstraction principles they're based on 10:14
jnthn Of course, you have to understand how to use them to make such choices. :)
mathw I'm finding it relatively simple because I'm a Haskell programmer as well, and it's quite Haskell-ish
RabidGravy speaking of which I want something that turns a selected sub-set of perl into javascript at some point, rationale being that I would like to write CouchDB applications in perl
mathw I have yet to actually use the JS interop though, and that's where things get slightly weird. Apparently it works well, but it very much treats JS-land as a fenced-off area with barbed wire, a moat, searchlights and armed guards 10:15
masak brrt: oh, I didn't mean to chastise you for being cynical. you might well be right. (but I don't know that you are.)
mathw In other words it's entirely sensible about it.
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masak brrt: the silliest thing about the JS transpilers is that they are called "transpilers". other than that, I'm all for them. :) 10:15
brrt neither do i, for that matter
that is, indeed, extremely silly
considering compilers were initially called translators 10:16
mathw I wouldn't consider Elm a transpiler
CoffeeScript might be, just
but Elm's operating in another realm entirely
JS is definitely a lower-level language
despite JS's own fancy features
masak Elm just compiles from a much more different source substrate. other than that, I don't really see the difference. 10:20
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mathw When you come from pure functional languages with strong type systems everything else starts looking like a low-level language... 10:23
Although Elm's lacking some really useful stuff. I'd like it if it acquired typeclasses at some point
But it's much like F# in that respect, which is perfectly tolerable 10:24
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RabidGravy right, libsamplerate binding it is, this is either going to be really quick and easy or awful and expose a load of weirdness 10:28
jnthn Should I check at regular intervals how it's going? 10:30
brrt is not sure if pun...
lunch &
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RabidGravy jnthn, if you end up only being able to do it every 20 microseconds then you'll know 10:32
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masak m: for 1..10 -> $i { state $s ~= $i; LAST { say $s if $s } } 10:44
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«12345678910␤»
masak cute.
so `=` in a state declaration happens once, but `~=` happens always?
jnthn masak: yes; initializers are parsed specially 10:45
While ~= is parsed as an infix.
masak m: class C { submethod BUILD { say "!" } }; for 1..5 { state C $c .= new }; say "alive"
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«!␤alive␤»
jnthn .= is also one of the initializer forms 10:46
Along with := and ::=
masak aha, ok.
have to look beyond the syntax to achieve consistency, then :)
jnthn Well, it's a syntactic decision :) 10:47
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azawawi hi 10:48
masak hi, aza 10:49
wawi
azawawi :)
I am trying to verify github.com/supernovus/perl6-http-easy/issues/25 with this test case gist.github.com/azawawi/89f9125f4b1173d9e36d 10:50
Seems like a rakudo IO::Socket::INET listen bug
in Perl, first socket would only get initialized. In rakudo, both get initialized 10:51
i bet we're not checking the return type in github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...NET.pm#L73 10:53
masak azawawi: sounds right so far. 10:55
azawawi++
azawawi alright, caught a bug :) 10:57
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DrForr I'm aware that we're not ready, but does anyone have an inkling of how 6.0.0 will be packaged? 11:15
I'm poking through perlbrew wondering how much work would be involved to make 'perlbrew use perl-6.0.0' work :) 11:16
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pmurias re recent Code of Conduct discussion do we really need such a thing, #perl6 seems to be a civil place already 11:18
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moritz pmurias: I guess it's in anticipation of the community expanding after the 6.0.0 release 11:29
llfourn with p6doc is there anyway to htmlify a single .pod rather than make the whole thing? 11:31
moritz nope 11:32
llfourn k thx
moritz and it's not trivial to do, because there isn't always a one-to-one mapping from .pod to .html file
llfourn I see. It didn't look trivial look at the src :) 11:33
looking*
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ssqq How to serialize an object of type Regex? 11:37
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ssqq p6: my $str = '<[a..z]>'; my $regex = / <$str> /; say $regex.perl; 11:39
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«/ <$str> /␤»
ssqq How to expand the content <$str> 11:40
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moritz doens't know an easy solution 11:44
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jnthn not aware of one either 11:55
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FROGGS that task might make a good gsoc project 11:57
brrt back 11:58
FROGGS taking its QAST, resolving ("inlining") all stuff that refers to lexicals or other packages, and then turn that into objects and code again
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masak ssqq: I've been toying with the idea of making a module that could represent regexes on the AST level. 12:05
ssqq: presumably that would be a good starting point for the transformation you're talking about.
(though it's interesting/worrying that regexes close over their lexical environment.)
FROGGS let's call it challenging :o) 12:06
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moritz masak: just like any other code, really 12:08
stop thinking of regexes as strings
brrt hmm 12:11
do we already have an idea of the representation of perl6 AST for e.g. macro's 12:12
it's kind of a hard problem 12:13
masak moritz: I wasn't thinking of them as strings, necessarily. but I had a model of the ASTs that was a little too inert.
brrt because you can't just say 'use QAST' and maintain the conceptual separation between perl6-the-language and 'rakudo-the-compiler'
masak brrt: yes, I'm working on such a model.
brrt is intererested
masak brrt: it won't be QAST. it will be higher-level and more user-centric. 12:14
brrt: the working name for it is Qtree.
brrt i suppose it will have some internal way of transforming back to QAST, then
will it be ready for 6.0 :-) 12:15
masak it's not a blocker for 6.0
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dalek osystem: c6682b4 | jaffa4++ | META.list:
Update META.list

added String::Stream		 12:36
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colomon DrForr: how is the Perl5 to Perl6 conversion code coming? I see lots of recent commits, which is quite encouraging… 12:44
jaffa4 hi colomon 12:45
Wher is the project?
colomon o/
DrForr I'm changing the name over the weekend to something more useful like 'Perl::ToPerl6'.
colomon jaffa4: github.com/drforr/Perl-Mogrify 12:46
jaffa4 DrForr: try to avoid names start with Perl6...
DrForr You'll notice that it doesn't start with Perl6, I knew that was reserved. 12:47
It's along the lines of Perl::Critic and Perl::Tidy.
colomon: I had to rewrite the string convrersion because I'd forgotten about interactions. 12:49
jaffa4 DrForr: what do you use for parser? 12:51
masak the Perl6:: namespace on CPAN is an odd quirk of history. it's basically for Perl *5* modules implementing Perl 6 stuff.
jaffa4: I think DrForr uses PPI. 12:52
DrForr PPI, yes.
With the notion of running the tool over PPI once it's gotten to a decent level of sophistication. 12:53
jaffa4 DrForr: your ANTLR4 to parl 6 grammar, how complete is that? 12:54
DrForr: what is it running over now? 12:55
DrForr Well, I just ran it over my ~/perl5 directory last night, and fixed everything but the Readonly my {..} constant structure. 12:56
masak wow.
DrForr In going over Damian's code (go figure, and yes, that's why I chose it) I found a bug in string case folding.
Well, the source files won't necessarily compile after they've been converted, that's another issue. 12:57
I just wanted to bombard the processor to make sure I'd worked out existing bugs before adding new transformers.
masak makes sense. 12:59
DrForr I also added the ability for transformers to request to be run before others, so they can sort out dependency issues. 13:00
And exposed internal bugs in the process, so more yaks to shave.
masak :) 13:01
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timotimo o/ 13:05
masak \o
hoelzro o/ timotimo (and everyone else)
yoleaux 04:36Z <skids> hoelzro: RE RT#125657 the example test.pl overrides Exception.gist, which is what prints out backtraces, which is why you do not see backtraces. (override .message instead).
synbot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=125657
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hoelzro thanks for the input, skids 13:09
jnthn agrees with skids++, fwiw 13:10
I'd say that's user error rather than Rakudo bug
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hoelzro jnthn: I agree as well now that I've really thought about it, so I rejected it 13:14
jnthn :)
hoelzro I ended up putting the result of the discussion on Socket.send in a branch: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/tree/sock...t-not-send 13:16
I can merge that into nom if everyone agrees that's the way forward
13:20 laouji left
moritz +1 13:26
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tadzik wow 13:29
github.com/google/snappy-start is cool
timotimo ah, so it replays system calls? that's pretty clever 13:30
Woodi lets put it into human readable file and optimize it a bit ;) 13:35
hi #perl6 :) 13:36
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moritz now my window manager should use such a tool to restore sessions of applications that don't support that natively 13:37
Woodi btw. yesterdays CoC discussion a bit slipped into: we vs python :)
llfourn it tries to restore open fds?
brrt Woodi: really? didn't see that
Woodi brrt: a bit :)
brrt hmm, possibly missed that
Woodi someone mentioned being in Guido talk, streams, etc 13:38
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brrt oh, yes 13:39
pmurias and who would impose the CoC on the community?
tadzik the community
PerlJam impose?
tadzik :-D-\-<
Woodi btw. someone know what happened to Compiz ? X or hw was changing too fast ? 13:40
masak I think "impose" misses the point of a CoC.
PerlJam indeed
masak it's not a contract that you sign onto. it's more like... a description of what we like, and how we tend to handle things that we don't like. 13:41
pmurias a lot of the people who want to impose the code of conducts like the geek feminism style people want to impose them and have resorted to bullying people 13:42
tadzik well, there are always extremists on both sides 13:43
PerlJam pmurias: we're not those people.
pmurias like getting a guy fired for telling a lame sexist joke
Woodi too much laws makes layers paid for finding ways around :)
tadzik personally I'm yet to find someone who belongs to a minority and doesn't think that cocs are stupid, but I'm told they exist 13:44
masak hopes someone finds tadzik to tell him that cocs are not stupid
ShimmerFairy tadzik: ... but I belong to a minority and I don't think cocs are stupid. Did you mess up a negation perchance? 13:45
tadzik well, I have a second-hand testimonies :)
Woodi or just a way of destroing something valuable, eg. MS or Oracle trolls :)
masak ShimmerFairy: wow, that was fast :>
PerlJam ShimmerFairy++
tadzik ShimmerFairy: no. And now I know someone, thanks :)
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ShimmerFairy I'm honestly surprised to hear you say that you've heard minorities dislike CoCs most of the time. That's... wow. 13:46
masak yes, tadzik comes at this from a somewhat different angle.
ShimmerFairy How so?
masak which is fine, and I actually like the different viewpoint.
tadzik well. I've met minorities who find CoCs unnecessary, and a giant majorities who says "yes, we need to care for minorities" 13:47
masak ShimmerFairy: how to sum it up? maybe tadzik's view are like Candide's "let's just tend our garden".
PerlJam resists the "obtuse" pun
tadzik which I don't disagree with, but I like actually listening to what those minorities have to say about it
instead of firing blindly
masak PerlJam: we didn't acutely need that pun, no :P
tadzik so I seek that before making judgements 13:48
it's easy to get easily opinionated when your entire viewpoint is your twitter feed
Woodi btw. I think so far we resolve controversial things by just stating our positions and not trying to enforce our view point via cultural-at-start discusions
ShimmerFairy I mean, I certainly am not interested in policing every minor move someone makes, but having some protections in place for people in minorities is way more helpful than not 13:49
masak well, statistics on the gender balance in the IT industry are not so subjective. I think the IT industry would be much improved by not being so gender-unbalanced.
tadzik absolutely
PerlJam ShimmerFairy: protections? 13:50
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masak maybe we can even take the further step and agree that various kinds of environmental hostility contribute to that unbalance. 13:50
Woodi ShimmerFairy: I'm pretty sure minorities here do not need protection, no such problem here
ShimmerFairy PerlJam: just the assurance that you're not alone in facing harassers, I mean.
brrt i don't think a CoC is a minority issue per se
tadzik Woodi: that's the point though: those that have that problem are not here
PerlJam Woodi: That may be true *today* but not necessarily tomorrow.
brrt: me either 13:51
ShimmerFairy Yeah, the point of our draft S27 is to put down in words what has helped us be a friendly place, not change it :)
brrt that's what i meant when i said that it was nice the proposed s27 / CoC was 'human' rather than political
Woodi so you will ban users more often ;)
masak Woodi: if necessary.
brrt whereby 'political' i mean 'in the interest of a particular subgroup'
masak Woodi: but banning is still a last resort.
brrt basically, it's also a statement that we take our community seriously 13:52
tadzik I don't think it will lead to more actions taken
ShimmerFairy brrt: As you can see in the part I wrote, I don't feel like even pretending you could make an exhaustive list. I do like the "case by case" basis approach (at least on some levels) when it comes to human interaction, at perhaps the chagrin of lots of people :)
tadzik it's not like these things happen often
and people who cause them are not easily discouraged
masak tadzik: that's be cause the community is small.
tadzik just that when it's in place, people will feel safer in general
before anything happens
that's my understanding of it 13:53
brrt ShimmerFairy: I do to. my only concern is that softer rules require harder 'enforcement' as it were
masak tadzik: I think I agree with you.
brrt ugh, my grammar is worthless today
ShimmerFairy brrt: Sure. That's why S27 isn't just "Pick the right choice. Done." :P
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masak brrt: why would softer rules require harder 'enforcement'? 13:54
ShimmerFairy tadzik: yep. For me, having a CoC would be a nice extra guarantee of how nice this place is, while a community rejection of any CoC would suddenly make feel a lot less safe here.
Ven
.oO( come to our side, at #notperl6 ) # <- scary
pmurias the only significantly discriminated group in Perl land are the PHP programmers
timotimo pmurias: i'd actually limit that to "people who defend language design choices of the PHP language" 13:55
PerlJam ShimmerFairy: we have a "code of conduct" whether it's written down or not :)
timotimo those may face some ... choice words
Woodi maybe we should have bot that can be called to send some rules to someone as 1st warning
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masak tadzik: I think that's a bit like saying "industrial safety guidelines? pfft. people will just feel safer, until the first accident." -- it's... *true*, in the sense that accidents can still happen. but the CoC can also have an effect all the same. 13:55
timotimo Woodi: my initial reaction to that is "no" 13:56
brrt masak: basically, a soft rule is open to interpretation and bending
tadzik ShimmerFairy: yeah, I see it, even though I used to be the one to be rejecting the idea
ShimmerFairy PerlJam: well yeah, but if the consensus ends up being "We don't need to write down our rules, whatever" then suddenly I wouldn't be so sure of this community, since in this scenario it's clearly uninterested in taking steps to ensure the niceness of it.
masak tadzik: that is, no CoC will ever stop a determined troll from trolling.
tadzik right
brrt if you have a hard list things you explicitly don't want, it's easy to say 'you break a rule. you are banned'
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masak tadzik: but at least the precence of the CoC will make someone like ShimmerFairy feel that there is support and a procedure in place to deal with the troll. 13:57
timotimo right, a community that has discussed and "denied" a CoC seems like the kind of place where people who get harassed would hear "grow a thicker skin" regularly
PerlJam timotimo: like #perl ? ;)
masak maybe we should cultivate the slogan "grow a skin of appropriate thickness" :)
timotimo i haven't been to #perl
brrt if you have a soft rule, on the other hand, you must be vigilant about the things that do or do not constitute breaks
tadzik masak: yeah, I think it's a good thing to have even if it only makes one single person feel welcome and then never gets actually enforced anyway. Making people feel better is always a worthy effort
PerlJam (#perl hasn't denied a CoC, but people do get told to grow a thicker skin) 13:58
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ShimmerFairy It's not that I've felt we've particularly needed a CoC before, but 1) Now that it's being discussed, denying it would be terrible, and 2) We need an easy/easier way of letting people know how we do things, once September and Christmas happen. 13:58
tadzik timotimo: I can understand them though, for a bit unrelated reasons though
DrForr And look at how many people *that* approach garners...
tadzik I've witnessed a conference that got outright abused and harrased for saying that they don't see a need for a CoC
but the very people CoC was supposed to protect 13:59
timotimo that seems a bit extreme
tadzik adopting it afterwards would be like accepting that it's fine for them to bully everyone
it was really fucked up
brrt wat
azawawi Hi :) 14:00
brrt (i like how we're discussing all the nice ways to ask people to be nice on the internet)
tadzik :)
masak well, this is the nicest place on the Internet I know of.
and smartest, too.
DrForr Basically one extremely loud minority was loud and persistent enough to get their worldview enforced.
[Coke] bops masak on the head.
azawawi Farabi6 experiment on top of atom's electron via a JSON::RPC bridge github.com/azawawi/farabi6/blob/ma...6_electron and github.com/azawawi/farabi6/blob/ma...pp/main.js 14:01
masak sees stars
DrForr (I think this is in reference to the RubyConf)
masak getting used to the level of discussion on #perl6 has made it very hard for me to hang out on some other IRC channels.
azawawi: wow!
azawawi # Perl 6 native web-based apps :)
ugexe adria richards has taught me to ignore all of this stuff for the reasons tadzik witnessed before
azawawi # native => desktop web 14:02
tadzik ugexe: yeah, seeing your RL friends lie about you to their twitter followers kind of makes you reluctant to join the effort
masak :/
brrt RL? 14:03
tadzik real-life
brrt oh
masak non-internet
brrt :-)
azawawi masak: finally solved the JS/Web/Perl 6 problem for desktop :)
masak azawawi: I'd say you did! good work!
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masak azawawi: I feel a sudden urge to write something based on that :> 14:03
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azawawi masak: get github.com/atom/electron/releases for your platform and try it :) 14:04
masak ...maybe later. :)
azawawi masak: i will try to generalize it into a simple usable framework... Maybe perl6-electron 14:05
azawawi goes home happy :)
masak azawawi: sounds like a plan! 14:06
jaffa4 pluto is not a planet
pmurias does perl6-electron compile things to JS or just talks to a js frontend app?
azawawi wonders how Perlito6 can be used to push JS into the renderer electron process app
pmurias: just talk at the moment
b2gills I find it stupid that CoCs have to exist, we are all in the majority of human beings. That being said, perhaps S27 could use some text saying that we expect members of the community to abide by those guidelines outside of the community as well. 14:07
azawawi pmurias: but with Perlito it will be able to push generated JS from a Perl 6 app
PerlJam b2gills: what does "outside of the community" mean?
pmurias b2gills: no
b2gills If they are in a PHP chatroom that would be outsied
azawawi pmurias: like a event loop controllled by Perl 6, you have electron renderer app, perl 6 main process and the atom electron process
ShimmerFairy b2gills: I agree with you, it's unfortunate that CoCs have to exist. :) 14:08
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azawawi pmurias: 1 - perl6 script launches elecrtron and downloads the electron for your current platform 2 - perl6 script starts the JSON::RPC bridge 3 - electron app sends a request to connect to confirm its availability 4 - Process watcher waits for electron process to end and starts it again if needed or exits the application 14:09
tadzik b2gills: referencing that thing with that project where one maintainer was saying things on his twitter?
masak jaffa4: Pluto may not be a planet, but it's very pretty in high resolution. and mysterious. :)
b2gills I don't use twitter
tadzik I didn't imply you do :)
but there was this drama a while ago, boiling down to "should we, as a community, regulate what our community members do in public space", pretty much
pmurias tadzik: that is a good example of what we should try to avoid
tadzik as in "our recognized developers is abusive on his twitter, what do we do about it" 14:10
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b2gills I was thinking encourage people to be nice elsewhere, or you will get a stern talking to. 14:10
pmurias would accepts pull requests from people regardless what they are saying on twitter
b2gills s/you/they/
PerlJam tadzik: part of that is having recognized channels for having discussions such as that. Part of the Opal mess (as I read it) was that the issure tracker for the project was not the right place to talk about social issues 14:11
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ShimmerFairy tadzik: Only if it ends up affecting the goings-on of #perl6 would I consider it an issue to deal with. If they manage to act nice and civil in here and not elsewhere, I find that a bit slimy/creepy/* but go ahead. 14:11
pmurias PerlJam: IMHO it's just scumbags who don't contribute and aren't a part of the community trying to hurt a project and start a witchhunt 14:13
tadzik I like to compare reiserfs to that, even if it's a bit off
b2gills I just don't want people outside of the community to see anyone from our community as being a jerk, or they could see the entire community as being a bunch of jerks.
brrt nods 14:14
well, to me that adds back to the professionalism discussion
timotimo ShimmerFairy, pmurias, tadzik: maybe we ought to go through a few different possible "outsides"; for example, behaving contrary to our S27 in an irc query temporally related to a discussion on #perl6 would clearly be something we don't want to tolerate?
ugexe it also depends on your view. mlehmann seems pretty disliked but would p5 be better without him? i dont think so
tadzik timotimo: I think the issue is about "public space" 14:15
b2gills It would be better if certain people learned to bite their tongues.
tadzik like, if I started being racist on twitter, that'll surely alienate some people from panda or something
ShimmerFairy b2gills: I understand that, though I think the better course would likely be to show that this place is a nice place regardless. (And besides, the truly terrible people would hopefully be unable to keep from their behavior just in #perl6 , giving good cause for them to be kicked out)
masak ugexe: I wanted to mention mlehmann too.
tadzik but who cares in what way I shittalk players in counter-strike 14:16
(not implying that I do)
timotimo hm
tadzik (but it seemed like a fitting channel for this sort of activity :))
timotimo right, shittalking players is pretty much expected of everyone in CS or LoL for example
masak he's an obvious example of a contributor, whose modules people use to quite an extent, but who doesn't make much of an effort to be "nice" in a #perl6 sense
I have a feeling mlehmann wouldn't like it much here ;)
tadzik I met a nice girl in CS when she sent curses and death wishes my way during a match 14:17
she's nice, but she still throws shit at people we play with :)
it's that kind of community it seems
b2gills As long as you don't try evangelizing Perl 6 in Counter-Strike it doesn't matter
ShimmerFairy masak: I'm not familiar with mlehmann ; do I want to see examples of how he is?
timotimo mlehmann is the PoE person?
masak yes.
tadzik not anyevent?
timotimo the one who "campaigned" against anyevent?
PerlJam AnyEvent
masak oh, anyevent.
timotimo oh, other way around? 14:18
tadzik yeah
PerlJam aye
masak yes.
timotimo i hope i'll be excused, not being a perl programmer and such :)
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masak and I imagine the campaign was because of mlehmann-as-a-person. 14:18
PerlJam He's the guy who wrote code that said "If this other module is loaded with mine, die horribly"
masak oh wow, I missed that.
ugexe the story isnt that simple though
DrForr mlehmann, that is, not dngor/LeoNerd.
timotimo of course it isn't 14:19
ugexe there is context that makes mlehmenn just look like a dick instead of a raging asshole
sjn_phone .. ................&
masak I'm glad we cleared that up.
timotimo social interactions are pretty much hit by the curse of dimensionality
timotimo hugs ugexe
ugexe i dunno i like the guy
sjn_phone cg.gg,gbgggbgggggggggggggggggggggg...x,gcccxn.= hd+ gdtgdgS-5 *ERHAEER:.'T.JMMKWWQKEJKB 14:20
IQNE
timotimo someone has a cat!
masak or a back pocket.
brrt cat-on-keyboard error
timotimo hm ... or maybe the irc client open in the pocket
PerlJam hang up the sjn_phone
sjn_phone BGFFBBBEBBEBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEFBBDDBBBBBBSS B,S D.D.DDDDD...DDAAD Q.SBSDDDDQSDQDQDDDDDDD.Q................ WWSG
CCCC.V Gundxc juv nd xs
dssmaamakgkghdhhbb
ShimmerFairy I'm guessing I don't want to be familiar with mlehmann :)
sjn_phone m ad wn bmbgfgregee
tadzik :D
14:20 ChanServ sets mode: +o masak
tadzik sjn pls 14:20
14:20 sjn_phone was kicked by masak (sjn_phone)), ChanServ sets mode: -o masak
timotimo it was just getting interesting, masak :( 14:20
tadzik I THINK THEY'RE TRYING TO COMMUNICATE WITH US
timotimo the phone was calling out for its DAD! 14:21
brrt i don't consider a CS match a public space in the way twitter is
ShimmerFairy Ultimately, I just want our code of conduct to be a reflection of exactly how we've been able to keep up such a nice and welcoming atmosphere. Nothing more than that. :)
timotimo right; i think that's a good stance, ShimmerFairy
brrt in the same way that e.g. a soccer match isn't a public space, even though it may happen in public
PerlJam ShimmerFairy++
timotimo brrt: but soccer players still get a bit of backlash when they, for example, headbutt someone? 14:22
masak ShimmerFairy: I like that.
brrt there is no expectation of a wider audience than those directly involved
hmm
good point
timotimo oh, you're talking about soccer matches between regular people
PerlJam (and I wish we could stop calling it a "code of conduct" ... it's totally the wrong tone)
b2gills I just wanted to bring it up. ShimmerFairy++
brrt aye
timotimo i thought you were also including nationwide and worldwide tournaments and such
ShimmerFairy We could intelligently discuss the merits of constraining social interactions all day, but the base issue is just putting down how we've already been able to manage this complex issue :) 14:23
masak I think we should pat ourselves a little on the back for having done well so far. 14:24
but I also think much of the "nice" that we have could quite easily be decimated by a concerted effort of trolls.
timotimo right, there's no reason to think we'd never get hit by such an effort ever 14:25
masak the fact that that hasn't happened is partly luck and partly because we're a very small community, and not all that noticeable.
as Perl 6 grows, which may happen after release, our luck may change, and we might become more noticeable.
Woodi I must strongly disagree ! CS is not "such place" ! 14:26
ugexe i would say youve been able to maintain the niceness of the community through (relatively) slow growth. once that increases it will become harder to maintain a majority of such
masak ugexe: yes, exactly.
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masak Woodi: what exactly are you objecting to? 14:27
14:27 iH2O left
masak Woodi: CS is not a place at all. it's an academic field. 14:27
timotimo i think he's refering to when tadzik talked about Counter-Strike
masak oh!
you young people :P
ShimmerFairy I think the most important thing is to assure everyone that they will not face swift (and thus potentially wrong) responses from the community for their behavior, nor will they be discriminated against for any part of who they are. 14:28
Woodi masak: that Counter-Strike is full of shit throving persons, etc :)
masak Woodi: but tadzik said that he had met one, and that she was cute. :)
colomon is wondering if he could use termux.com/ to install perl6 on his phone…
tadzik masak: fsvo cute... :P 14:29
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tadzik but yeah, in general it's a horrible place to be a nice human being in 14:30
I'm glad this place is different :)
Woodi I think moust shit in CS and games comes from hackers, but they are bunned and problem solved
tadzik nah
masak tadzik: horrible place. I hear you can even get shot at in CS!
tadzik masak: by your own kin! For fun! 14:31
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tadzik (honestly, this is hilarous though) 14:31
Woodi multiple times. but than is not the point !
tadzik "Hey, behind you! *TASER*"
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Woodi about CoC: it should not be long... no racism, tolerance, no crime 14:32
sjn_phone apologizes for the noise I made a little while ago
ugexe no crime?
PerlJam well I'm leaving if I can't commit crimes! 14:33
moritz Woodi: "no crime" isn't easy. Stuff that's perfectly legal in my country could be a crime in yours, and the other way around
timotimo sjn_phone: no hard feeling :)
masak hugs sjn_phone
timotimo BBIAB
El_Che COC almost teared some communities apart, e.g. ubuntu. So step carefully
Woodi I am pretty sure that stiling and killing is nearly globally prohibited 14:34
PerlJam moritz: maybe "crime" could mean something more universally against humanity than something legislated by a particular jurisdiction.
ugexe we dont need to state the obvious
tadzik yeah, we do :(
Woodi CoC is such thing
tadzik I mean, that's part of the point
ugexe dont stab people?
sjn_phone hides under a rock in embarrassment
ugexe it wont be taken seriously if you put such things 14:35
PerlJam ugexe: surgeons stab people on purpose sometimes :)
El_Che what's illegal today may be leal tomorrow (e.g. resistence/terrorist viewpoint during war and education)
El_Che looks at his collection of cans of worms
b2gills It was once illegal to perform blood transfusions.
llfourn (it was once illegal to be gay)
ugexe not in antartica
El_Che llfourn: you illinformed zealot! not to be gay, to act on it :) 14:36
masak today on #perl6: an embarrassed phone hiding under a rock
PerlJam ugexe: Maybe ... we don't need to *enumerate* the obvious :)
El_Che PerlJam: wikipedia style :)
b2gills hopefully the rock doesn't scratch the screen
llfourn El_Che: point taken
El_Che llfourn: just being silly paraphrasing the pope 14:37
masak I think it's less about following a set of rules, and more about empathy and such
El_Che (it used to be illegal to be o the popist religion on some regions, here we go :) )
ugexe my point is, if you commit what most would consider a henious crime, the authorities are going to be taking care of it
PerlJam masak: Exactly! Empathy is key.
El_Che A lot of people in it lack empathy without being evil. They kind of like a set of rules. For other it's kind of insulting to state the obvious 14:38
Woodi empaty covers crime-makers too
llfourn "malicious activities" maybe instead of crime
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masak I'm not even saying people have to have empathy. I'm saying that's the expected ideal. 14:39
if you can fake empathy with a set of rules, fine.
but I also think reducing things to rules will always miss the point
I'm not just saying this because I'm a romanticist or something. I think rules are not ultimately what we're after, but niceness and the feeling of community 14:40
El_Che "We strive to be a friendly and inclusive community. Whatever your identity or background, you can expect to be treated respectfully by everyone in the community. In turn, you are expected to treat others in the same way." 14:46
masak I like that. 14:47
though s/strive to be/are/ :) 14:48
El_Che going to far in specifics will require things like CoC-commitee, arbriters and the kind
moritz like it too. Short and to the point.
jaffa4 Sorry what is CoC? 14:49
El_Che I prefer the strive or something similar because it factor in the times we fail while being active
jaffa4: Code of Conduct
jaffa4 Where? 14:50
sjn_phone Probably a good idea to not be too specific in a CoC. Not go into issues around law and crime and such. I like El_Che's text too
El_Che jaffa4: here is a more detailed kind: www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/conduct
I think it's overkill at the moment
masak I especially like the phrasing "you can expect to". it's not that it will happen, guaranteed. but you can set it as an expectation. 14:51
ShimmerFairy Something like that would be a good addition to the top of S27, methinks :) (though with the same s/strive to be/are/ suggestion as masak)
El_Che if people within set the example those few lines can be enforced by being naturalized
(the more you specify something the less natural it is)
raiph masak: I think it's much thornier than "reducing things to rules will always miss the point". I think rules invoke the same brain circuits that cause problems in the first place. (Put another way, our capacity to be "present" is precisely our capacity to not follow rules.) 14:52
yoleaux 21 Jul 2015 20:55Z <jnthn> raiph: generally one of --ll-exception or set a breakpoint in Moar where it throws that if you need to dig deeper; trouble is that error is pretty much always telling you that some *other* thing is wrong
raiph .tell jnthn Thanks
yoleaux raiph: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
14:53 sjn_phone_ joined
El_Che here is the COC text for later discussions: gist.github.com/nxadm/13c4817dd1b4b792a99f 14:55
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masak raiph: I think I see what you're getting at. 14:58
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[Coke] perljam: (code of conduct wrong tone) What would you suggest it be called, and why don't you like CoC? 15:05
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[Coke] wonders why it goes from pope to papist, and if that's english's fault or whoever we stole it from. 15:06
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masak [Coke]: English's fault. in OE it's pāpa 15:10
llfourn I finally wrote the docs I said I would for importing and exporting: github.com/perl6/doc/pull/104
if someone can review :)
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PerlJam [Coke]: I dunno ... it sounds very authoritarian and what we have is more "this is what's worked for us, try to emulate it as best you can". I like ShimmerFairy's draft title (rather than CoC): Policy of Decent Behavior 15:14
masak yeah, both "code" and "conduct" seem unnecessarily strict compared to what we have. 15:15
and, as has been pointed out, the concept of a CoC itself has been somewhat tarnished already.
PerlJam Maybe just call it the "Policy of Decency" and we can pun PoD again :) 15:16
timotimo the PoD6? 15:17
PerlJam "We follow the Pod!" (what are we? whales?)
masak yes. we are whales.
timotimo we are so few because there's been some excessive whaling going on 15:18
PerlJam I think I like "policy of decency" ... it's like the "principle of least surprise"; it's a really good idea. 15:20
[Coke] I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's been tarnished.
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tadzik I would 15:21
timotimo it seems like the pure mention of "CoC" brings about a swarm of people with very specific ideas putting up strawmen all over the place
El_Che "Policy of Decency" sounds intolerant 15:22
timotimo at least in some circles ... reading the comments section on the "why the open code of conduct isn't for me" blog post on reddit ...
El_Che don't show your legs you hippy!
PerlJam El_Che: intolerant to what?
oh.
El_Che decency is very relative
timotimo hm, right, there's also *that* meaning of "decent"
so how about "Definition of Decenly" or something in that direction?
"here's what we consider decent"
El_Che I'd say away from morality and decency 15:23
what about "community guidelines" 15:24
"perl 6 decorum"
"perl 6 social code"
ShimmerFairy My pick would be "Community Guidelines"; gets the point across without sounding so serious :) 15:25
El_Che I am on fire! 15:26
:)
hah
timotimo who put you on fire? :(
El_Che updated the gist
the roof is on fire!
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timotimo even one who copulates with mothers - be it their own or other people's - deserves to be put out if they are on fire 15:27
llfourn ^^ put that in there
15:28 abraxxa left
El_Che that could be a bloodhound Gang song 15:28
ugexe i believe myztikal already wrote that song, and they were appreciative of being on fire
timotimo "let's do it like they do on the IRC channel"?
15:29 abraxxa joined
El_Che :) 15:29
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RabidGravy I'm firmly convinced that the *next* thing I make is going to be a sort of h2xs equivalent for 6, I'm loosing the will to live typing this stuff 15:31
jnthn RabidGravy: There's already a C::Parser in the ecosystem that you might be able to use, iirc.
yoleaux 14:52Z <raiph> jnthn: Thanks
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timotimo people are "flipping their shit" on this reddit thread based on the "we explicitly honor diversity in [...] technical ability" wording in the OCoC, because they think it means they now have to accept any PR that comes along even if it's plain and simple bad code 15:32
El_Che the lines above just says "we'll reject the PR respectfully, nothing more" :) 15:34
raiph What about being very explicit that we must welcome 7 year olds, without qualification?
(er, s/welcome/be a safe place for/)
timotimo raiph: please elaborate a bit more? 15:35
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timotimo i can't tell from these few words if you're intending to say "we should welcome young people who choose to join our community" or "it's not a good idea to universally welcome everyone into the community"? 15:37
RabidGravy time like this calls for a Leffe
hoelzro RabidGravy: I have a little script that I wrote that does this for Xapian headers: github.com/hoelzro/p6-xapian/blob/...binding.p6
mmmmm Leffe 15:38
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RabidGravy hoelzro, nice one :) 15:39
hoelzro it's a little messy...
lizmat good *, #perl6!
hoelzro o/ lizmat
lizmat hoelzro o/
waking up for another day at the Perl booth at OSCON 15:40
not nudging anybody for the P6W
jnthn o/ lizmat, hoelzro
lizmat jnthn o/
jnthn heh, I failed to write my "what I did last week" report for another day in a row yesterday, at this rate it might still make the weekly :P
RabidGravy jnthn, yeah I had a look at that a week or so ago and I couldn't get it to work for the files I was looking at and as the yak stack was already several deep I didn't pursue 15:41
jnthn is in the final stages of getting a course ready to teach next week, which is why he's a little more distracted than he'd like to be from Perl 6 hacking
[Coke] ff
jnthn Good news is, after Wednesday next week I don't have to teach a single thing again until some time in September. :)
raiph timotimo: The former. I invited an 8 year old onto #perl6, feeling comfortable that she wouldn't be told
[Coke] ww. 15:42
raiph "that's off topic", or sworn at for being unclear, or whatever.
RabidGravy I'd be worried, but that's largely because I swear so much 15:43
jaffa4 jnthn: what is the course going to be about?
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timotimo sounds good to me :) 15:43
RabidGravy my FB is definitely 18+ even for members of the family because of the language that often gets used 15:44
jnthn jaffa4: Domain Driven Design and various functional-ish implementation techniques, including event sourcing... 15:45
raiph timotimo: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-03-01#i_6510638 15:46
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timotimo ah, i was already around at that time, but i didn't see that happen 15:47
that use of <? !>.pick x (^99).pick though ;) 15:49
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timotimo not that i wouldn't have done the same thing if i had had an internet connection back then 15:50
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RabidGravy when I was eight the arpanet NCP was still being developed 15:55
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llfourn I think the 8 year old version of me had the self control to follow any CoC 15:57
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llfourn I don't think* 15:58
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lucasb It seems that non-literal regex objects in boolean context try to match with $_. Is that intended? Any place in the spec says about it? 15:59
Things like: "if $regex {}", "if rx/.../ {}"
PerlJam S05:2352 16:01
synbot6 Link: design.perl6.org/S05.html#line_2352
PerlJam oh. I misread what you said
But it probably says that somewhere around there. 16:02
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RabidGravy lucasb, I think there was a bug in there that it would crap out if $_ wasn't defined. That it got fixed and still works like that suggests that someone thought it was on purpose ;-) 16:04
llfourn m: my $r = /foo/; if $r { say "win" }
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«Method 'match' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/2LmolFC995:1␤␤»
RabidGravy oh maybe it didn't get fixed then 16:05
lucasb Well, the spec says something about /.../ and rx/.../ should behave the same in boolean context
I my doubt was more with "if $regex {}" 16:06
llfourn m: if /foo/ { say "win" }
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«Method 'match' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/bkKEQMqNwz:1␤␤»
llfourn m: if rx/foo/ { say "win" }
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«Method 'match' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/NRoOb330EM:1␤␤»
lucasb llfourn: You are not setting $_
llfourn they all seem to behave the same way
hoelzro just typed "git checkout nomaster"
lucasb There is another tiny thing:
PerlJam Though that error is certainly LTA
hoelzro that's an interesting blend of nom & master... 16:07
llfourn m: $_ = bar; if rx/foo/ { say "win" }
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/4qh51jnudY␤Undeclared routine:␤ bar used at line 1. Did you mean 'bag'?␤␤»
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lucasb m: $_ = 'a'; say /a/.Bool 16:07
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«True␤»
RabidGravy right, but it shouldn't crap out if $_ isn't set
lucasb m: $_ = 'a'; say so /a/
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«Method 'match' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/QOg79DBoyo:1␤␤»
raiph llfourn: I think it's helpful to focus on the case of dealing with actual 7 year olds, partly because that puts the onus on us, not the visitor; partly because many of us (me!) will still experience that inner 7 year old's thinking, even if we're grounded in equanimity (and even more so if not); and partly because it might focus attention on an eli 16:10
7 CoC first, and then we can elaborate if need be
timotimo "it might focus attention on an eli" ?
PerlJam (Eli is the 7 year old ;) 16:11
raiph timotimo: an eli5 2 years later :)
timotimo ah
i thought the word was cut off %) 16:12
raiph maybe perl6 could have the first eli7 coc :)
TimToady how bout elly7?
yoleaux 08:43Z <jnthn> TimToady: Wow, yes...also if we figure out what bits of the declaratively matched stuff we need not run procedurally. If you have a good idea how to represent that and get the NFA runner itself to collect the info, I can probably figure out how to pass the info on downwards...
08:43Z <jnthn> TimToady: where "represent that" is the fates of the sublexers...
PerlJam m: say ?/a/ 16:14
camelia rakudo-moar e41624: OUTPUT«Method 'match' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/CQ9hMfdbaG:1␤␤»
llfourn raiph: I understand part of what you mean. 7 year olds who can figure out irc should def be welcome!
raiph: I like seven year olds don't know what equanimity means.
llfourn looks up equanimity
raiph TimToady: Explain it like Larry's 7?
dalek kudo/nom: 96fed87 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:
RT #125663: Better error message for bare Proxy.new
 16:18
synbot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=125663
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RabidGravy after all most of the time you need to explain things to me like I was 7 16:24
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ugexe explain things to me like im stoned or drunk (depending on what time it is) 16:28
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RabidGravy or stoned and drunk - the subset stops us having to worry about the timezone difference 16:30
rangerprice hi 16:31
RabidGravy erp
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jdv79 ugexe: how come the code snippets in your blog post are hidden behind a smaller viewport? 16:34
its a pain to have to scroll each one even though my screen is way larger than the code 16:35
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RabidGravy I'd go with one of "shitty wordpress plugin", "insufficient giving a shit about web design", "because that's how it came out" 16:37
;-)
ugexe lol
moritz I'd go with "that's what you call reacti... oh, wait!" 16:39
erm, "responsi..."
ugexe yeah, ill have to flex my c&p skills a bit after finding a better one
jdv79 well, github does it similarly so i guess its not that abnormal
forgot about that
TimToady way too many sites assume young eyes that can read teeny tiny fonts
ugexe i can remove a level of indentation in the code if i swap out a `for` for a >> 16:40
TimToady it's a free-form language, you can just run it through format(1)
RabidGravy I dunno I accidentally ran a whole file through fmt and it royally shagged it up 16:41
hoelzro are finalizers (ie. DESTROY) guaranteed to run at the end of a process? my experience seems to indicate "no", but the specs for exit() seem to imply "yes" 16:42
moritz hoelzro: no
RabidGravy didn't do much for the readability either
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hoelzro the specs for exit() should be changed, then 16:43
what contributed to that decision, if I may ask?
moritz hoelzro: performance 16:44
hoelzro: it saves us from doing a full collection at program exit 16:45
TimToady it's not embedding friendly though
moritz hoelzro: and most DESTROY methods do cleanup stuff that are redundant at program exit (closing connections, file handles etc.)
RabidGravy does Perl6 run on any operating systems where not freeing some resource before process exit would cause a problem?
currently that is 16:46
hoelzro is that in the interest of returning control to the user in a CLI environment more quickly?
TimToady define "operating system" and "process"
hoelzro judging from the way MoarVM implements finalization at the moment, it seems to me that finalizers could be run at exit without incurring a full GC
RabidGravy I guess no-one is queuing up to port to AmigaOS
TimToady is apache an operating system for its sub-processes?
hoelzro excellent question 16:47
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lizmat hoelzro: the way I understand finalizers in MoarVM, is that you *would* need a full GC run to run *all* finalizers 16:51
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hoelzro from how I understand the code, MoarVM maintains a list of all live objects that have a finalizer 16:52
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TimToady how does the JVM eval server handle the embedding? 16:53
hoelzro github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/blob/mast...lize.c#L24
granted, that implementation may change
lizmat hoelzro: but isn't that list generated at the moment they are moved from the nursery? 16:54
hoelzro that's what I thought at first
github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/blob/mast...tion.c#L94 16:55
lizmat so any objects in the nursery not moved yet will not be known to have a finalizee?
hoelzro but that looks like it's at allocation time
lizmat ah, ok... well, I guess jnthn will be able to tell for sure :)
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hoelzro indeed =) 16:56
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nine moritz: most, but certainly not all. Inline::Perl5's DESTROY shuts down the perl5 interpreter which causes it for example to flush output buffers. By not running d'tors on exit, we often lose output done by Perl 5 code. 17:01
Sadly this screws up even Hello World: nine@sphinx:~> perl6 -e 'EVAL "print qw(hello)", :lang<Perl5>;' 17:03
lizmat so how about "exit( :teardown )" ?
nine nine@sphinx:~>
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nine lizmat: that would require Inline::Perl5 users to put that into every script. 17:04
lizmat or maybe exit( :no-teardown )
make the current behaviour settable
nine: but, Inline::Perl5 could wrap Perl6's exit, no ? 17:05
moritz nine: oh, good point
nine How about some $*TEARDOWN defaulting to False? Inline::Perl5 knows that it needs reliable teardown and could set it.
Is exit() called on every script exit? Even after die? 17:06
hoelzro Inline::Perl5 is exactly why I bring up DESTROY =) 17:07
nine Yes, $*TEARDOWN would cause a global change done in secret by some module you maybe didn't know you even loaded and Perl 6 generally tries to avoid this as much as possible. But we're talking about disabling a performance optimization, not more.
hoelzro nine: I think exit() is only called when a developer actually calls it; I don't think it's implicitly called 17:08
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hoelzro but there is some common teardown logic that should probably when exit() is called, a script is done, a (catchable) signal is sent to the process, or a script die()s 17:09
nine Incidentally, Perl 5 has a similar switch called PL_destruct_level
dalek kudo/nom: 43a2cee | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
RT #125661: Wrongly reported error for non-existing private method
 17:10
synbot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=125661
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jnthn moritz++ # fixing RTs 17:12
moritz jnthn: that was a fun one 17:15
jnthn nine: If you want something to run for sure at exit, why not deal with it using END?
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dalek ast: 7502f61 | moritz++ | S12-methods/private.t:
RT #125661: Error reporting for private methods in a try
 17:16
synbot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=125661
hoelzro interesting 17:17
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nine jnthn: that's an....intriguing question. I'd have to keep a list of all existing Inline::Perl5 objects in the module, but I guess I will need that anyway if I ever manage to fix precomp. 17:33
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moritz std: "{@_}" 17:36
camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Placeholder variable @_ may not be used here because the surrounding block takes no signature at /tmp/KtKHm0o3jI line 1:␤------> 3"{7⏏5@_}"␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 135m␤»
moritz std: sub { "{@_}" }
camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Placeholder variable @_ may not be used here because the surrounding block takes no signature at /tmp/Z31VYFmGpH line 1:␤------> 3sub { "{7⏏5@_}" }␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 137m␤»
nine jnthn: but then DESTROY will for sure only be called on exit since my list will keep the objects alive. 17:37
moritz m: my @result = gather { take 'foo=bar'.split('=') }; say @result 17:41
camelia rakudo-moar 96fed8: OUTPUT«␤»
moritz m: my @result = gather { my $dummy = take 'foo=bar'.split('=') }; say @result
camelia rakudo-moar 96fed8: OUTPUT«␤»
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xinming Is there weak ref idea in perl6? 17:42
jnthn nine: Yeah, true...
xinming: No
xinming jnthn: In perl6, There will be no circular references of objects? 17:43
jnthn I suspect we'll get them at some point in the future, but given you don't need them to solve circular data structure issues in Perl 6, they're not on the 6.christmas critical path (so they'll happen after it)
xinming Ok, Got it.
jnthn xinming: Sure there will; you only need weak references to solve that if your GC doesn't consider reachability. Perl 6 impls have a GC that does :) 17:44
nine jnthn: what do you think about $*TEARDOWN?
jnthn nine: It'll (a) need VM support, and (b) can only work if all VMs cooperate 17:45
xinming Another question, How do we do auto cast of types? For now, perl6 forces types, And is there a syntax to do Auto cast or select a function to cast type to target type?
17:45 Hor|zon left, amurf left
xinming Hmm, I'll read doc again. I was just offline and used perl6 to write some simple scripts, and got these questions. :-) 17:46
jnthn nine: It's worth noting that the JVM actually deprecated their equivalent to what you're suggesting with $*TEARDOWN: docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/j...t(boolean) 17:47
xinming: Perl 6 doesn't force types; there are coercion types though (only supported in signatures so far) where you tell it to coerce 17:48
xinming: Writing type annotations in your program is opt-in, and the builtins are not strict :)
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llfourn docs.perl6.org/language/functions -- at the bottom Coercion Types 17:48
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llfourn jnthn: can you declare your own coercion types and coercion subs or is that planned? 17:50
lizmat m: for ^10 -> $a, $b, $c { say $a,$b,$c } # somehow I expected the last iteration to have 9,Any,Any
camelia rakudo-moar 96fed8: OUTPUT«012␤345␤678␤Too few positionals passed; expected 3 arguments but got 1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/pjIqdFNer3:1␤␤»
jnthn lizmat: Optional 17:51
lizmat Optional?
jnthn lizmat: ?
m: for ^10 -> $a, $b?, $c? { say $a,$b,$c }
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«012␤345␤678␤9(Mu)(Mu)␤»
jnthn Like that :)
Bey I'm trying to use Bailador. I use a simple code : get '/' => sub { "hello world ! }. But when I go at 0.0.0.0:3000/, there is nothing....
jnthn lizmat: You can pick defaults too 17:52
lizmat m: for ^10 -> $a, $b, $c { say $a,$b,$c } # somehow I expected the last iteration to have 9,Any,Any
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«012␤345␤678␤Too few positionals passed; expected 3 arguments but got 1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/ZuKUHdzBNa:1␤␤»
xinming llfourn: THanks, Will read them.
flussence Bey: try 127.0.0.1
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jnthn lizmat: Then you expected wrong. :) 17:52
Bey flussence : I've already done, it does'nt work... 17:53
jnthn lizmat: We can't just pass Mu or Any also, 'cus the type expected may be tighter...
llfourn: You can write your own coercion logic either with a method on the thing being coerced, or making the target invokable (the latter will surely change as it's crazy... :)) 17:54
llfourn jnthn: Thanks. I'm guessing coercion to Int you implement .Int? 17:55
lizmat jnthn: but I seem to recall that that was just what it was supposed to do?
hmmm...
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jnthn Yes 17:55
lizmat: No, it's never been designed that way afaik
flussence star: use Bailador; get q{/} => sub { "hello world" }; say 'alive'
camelia star-m 2015.03: OUTPUT«alive␤»
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jnthn llfourn: Yes 17:55
llfourn jnthn: Thanks! Will document :) 17:56
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flussence «perl6 -MBailador -e 'get q{/} => sub { "hello world!" }; baile'» works fine here... 17:56
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llfourn ^^ the above also works for me 17:57
flussence (and "curl 0.0.0.0:3000" works too, which I did not expect)
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Bey Rakudo tells me there is no error, but I've nothing in my browser 17:58
lucasb m: sub f {}; try f(1); say 'alive'
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/gvaPHi0K9j␤Calling f(int) will never work with declared signature ()␤at /tmp/gvaPHi0K9j:1␤------> 3sub f {}; try 7⏏5f(1); say 'alive'␤»
flussence does it print any log messages at all when you try to open the URL? 17:59
masak lucasb: it's failing at compile-time, and so the `try` is too late to help.
llfourn Bey: can you try telnet localhost 3000?
lucasb masak: hmm, let me test something here :)
Bey I'm stupid. It works perfectly with localhsot:3000
That's strange... 18:00
lucasb perl6 --optimize=off -e 'sub f {}; try f(1); say "alive"' 18:01
Bey Very strange.. anyw, thanks for the gelp !
lucasb ^^ that works, with optimize off
this is after moritz latest commit
flussence oh well... wonder why localhost works and 127.0.0.1 doesn't. 18:02
jnthn lucasb: Sure, 'cus the optimizer does the analysis that proves your code could never possibly work
lucasb: It's actually trying to work out if it can do various opts, but sometimes finds that a call is simply impossible.
lucasb so... my program changes behaviour with/without --optimize=off ? 18:03
jnthn lucasb: Your program *doesn't even run* with --optimize=off 18:04
uh, without it
It says "==SORRY==" which means you didn't make it to runtime.
lucasb jnthn: Are we on the same revision? :) 18:05
jnthn lucasb: I'm going on the camelia output above.
m: sub f {}; try f(1); say 'alive'
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/DBbQTYPE18␤Calling f(int) will never work with declared signature ()␤at /tmp/DBbQTYPE18:1␤------> 3sub f {}; try 7⏏5f(1); say 'alive'␤»
jnthn The ===SORRY!=== there means it's a compile-time error
lucasb ok, so with optimize it fails, but *without* optimize it works? 18:06
flussence what you're doing there is the equivalent of trying to assign to *NULL in C then catching the resulting segfault. You might be able to bludgeon gcc into compiling it, but it's doing you a favour by not 18:07
PerlJam lucasb: "works" is probably a little kind :)
jnthn lucasb: With optimize it does exactly what is intended.
lucasb: Without it, a piece of code that is always going to throw a runtime exception makes it to runtime and does so. 18:12
lucasb jnthn: And then, the 'try' catches it and the program outputs 'alive'
jnthn *sigh* you're not listening, and I'm going to make dinner.
&
lucasb jnthn: Sorry, I'm just confused :)
For context, I'm on 43a2cee here locally
perl6 --optimize=off -e 'sub f {}; try f(1); say "alive"' #=> outputs 'alive'
perl6 -e 'sub f {}; try f(1); say "alive"' #=> dies with "SORRY ..."
PerlJam lucasb: correct
RabidGravy yes, because the try caught the failure to run the sub
lucasb I'm just saying the behaviour change with/without optimize
PerlJam lucasb: right.
18:13 lizmat left
lucasb ok, thanks! I think we are now on the same page :) 18:13
RabidGravy with optimse on code fails at compile time, off it fails at run time
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PerlJam fails, but you ignore the failure 18:13
RabidGravy except the try stops it from reporting
masak lucasb: heh, I already explained what's confusing you above. 18:14
<masak> lucasb: it's failing at compile-time, and so the `try` is too late to help.
flussence m: sub f {}; BEGIN try f(1); say 'alive'
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/dYqd7aioTO␤Calling f(int) will never work with declared signature ()␤at /tmp/dYqd7aioTO:1␤------> 3sub f {}; BEGIN try 7⏏5f(1); say 'alive'␤»
lucasb masak: That was the first message, indeed; I should have tried to understand a little better. Thanks
flussence m: sub f {}; try EVAL 'f(1)'; say 'alive'
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«alive␤»
RabidGravy the moral of the story is don't stop the compiler from helping you 18:17
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lucasb For context, what I was saying was about this recently fixed bug 125661 18:19
irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-07-15#i_10896584
^^ cognominal had already seen that before too
18:23 lizmat left
masak RabidGravy: yes, that's a good summary. 18:29
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moritz lucasb, cognominal: fwiw the bug was that 'try' makes Failures fatal by some AST wrapping, and that AST wrapping didn't preserve the .node property of the AST 18:31
(which is used for generating line numbers)
and the optimizer tripped over that while generating the error message
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lucasb moritz: thanks for the explanation! 18:39
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lucasb again, thanks everybody and sorry for my stubbornness ;) 18:40
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brrt \o 18:50
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rangerprice hi 18:59
brrt hi rangerprice 19:00
rangerprice how are you ? 19:01
19:03 bin_005 joined
brrt hmm.. ok, i guess 19:05
what about you? :-)
rangerprice I'm fine :D 19:06
brrt that's good to hear 19:07
moritz m: say ((1, 2), <a b>).map({ .join(',')}).join('|') 19:10
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«1,2|a,b␤»
moritz m: say ((1, 2), <a b>).flatmap(&uc).join('|')
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«1|2|A|B␤»
moritz m: say &flatmap 19:11
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/C4x_bsX2EU␤Undeclared routine:␤ &flatmap used at line 1␤␤»
19:11 colomon left, colomon joined, colomon left 19:12 colomon joined
rangerprice camelia: help 19:13
camelia rangerprice: Usage: <(star-m|nqp-js|p5-to-p6|star-j|nqp-parrot|nqp-moarvm|pugs|rakudo-jvm|prof-m|std|niecza|debug-cat|rakudo-moar|nqp-jvm|n|rn|rm|Prn|nom|m|P|nr|r-m|star|r-j|r-jvm|sm|rPn|rnP|nqp-mvm|p6|nrP|nqp-p|sj|nqp-q|nqp|perl6|j|rakudo|Pnr|rj|nqp-m|nqp-j|r|nPr|p56)(?^::\s) $perl6_program>
rangerprice m: say "hello world"
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«hello world␤» 19:14
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dalek c: 9c3e602 | paultcochrane++ | lib/Type/Blob.pod:
Link to unpack() correctly

This fixes issue #102.		 19:17
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dalek c: 3056664 | moritz++ | lib/Type/List.pod:
Document flatmap

also mention that map does not flatten, and that map iterates $N-at-a-time depending on the signature		 19:22
c: 60bcf47 | (Lloyd Fournier)++ | lib/Language/modules.pod:
Added section to modules.pod so it is about writing and loading modules
 19:25
c: 5b306d4 | moritz++ | lib/Language/modules.pod:
Merge pull request #104 from LLFourn/master

Increased scope of modules.pod by adding "Creating and Using" section
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dalek c: 373e657 | moritz++ | CONTRIBUTING.md:
CONTRIBUTING: use active voice
 19:29
c: 8b02392 | moritz++ | CONTRIBUTING.md:
CONTRIBUTING: describe the role of Mojolicious in more detail
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dalek ast: 233c86e | moritz++ | S32-array/splice.t:
RT #125571: splice should not allow to sneak in values that violate the type constraint of an array
 19:41
synbot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=125571
[Tux] niner: Your perl was not configured to build a shared library; unable to build 19:43
I didn't change anything in the past 12 days on that system. Why does this suddenly occur? 19:44
moritz [Tux]: the detection of shared library builds is new; maybe it's a false error message in your case? 19:46
[Tux] Inline::Perl5 now fails to install 19:47
I have a libperl.a which contains shared loaded objects
(note it is not a libperl.so)
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[Tux] the fact the libperl is not called .so does not mean that it cannot be used! 19:48
all .o's that .a are -oPIC
-fPIC
test 50000 45.765 45.672 19:49
test-t 50000 45.060 44.967
just for your information
jnthn [Tux]: What are the two columns? 19:52
[Tux]: Previous run, current run? 19:53
[Tux] 50000 is the counted "fields" if not 50000 it is wrong
45.765 is the total run time of the proces
45.672 is the same with the "perl6 -I. -e1' time subtracted 19:54
jnthn aha
Gotcha, thanks
[Tux] 45.765/45.060 once was 38.6/35
20150309 19:55
github.com/Tux/CSV/blob/master/README.speed
jnthn When we were faster and wronger, I presume... 19:56
And probably various other issues.
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jnthn Hmm, 20150422 to 20150426 was a big jump 19:57
japhb .tell El_Che I like the 'We are' variant at gist.github.com/nxadm/13c4817dd1b4b792a99f and I prefer "Community Guidelines" to both "Social Code" and "Code of Conduct" (the worst of those three IMO).
jnthn will have to take a look under the profiler to figure that out
yoleaux 08:22Z <brrt> japhb: i like it, i'm playing devils advocate for a bit
japhb: I'll pass your message to El_Che.
08:23Z <brrt> japhb: it's an implicit assumption that everyone *can* be a positive, kind member, and that's not really true, e.g. the TempleOS guy
19:57 pecastro_ left
brrt code of conduct is pretty generally disliked, it seems 19:58
PerlJam aye. "Community Guidelines" is way better
brrt fairly sure that's due to the political/interest group connotation
japhb yoleaux: I actually was *not* making the assumption that everyone can be positive and kind. I think more people can than appears at first blush, but yes, some people just can't, and we shouldn't feel like we need to coddle them.
grrr, not yoleaux, brrt 19:59
brrt :-)
yeah, i can see that point 20:00
another thing i noticed is that people reject the idea of specifying which 'minorities' 20:01
would be 'guarded' by a CoC
PerlJam because we don't discrimminate :) 20:02
hobbs Good rules are timeless :)
masak and it's practically the only way to be inclusive
japhb As for the value of doing community guidelines, the previous commentators who said part of it is bracing against our own Endless September is a large part of it. Part of it, as ShimmerFairy notes, is just giving people the psychological safety of knowing the community has their back, even when they are new enough that that is not already self-obvious. Basically, making them feel safe enough to *join*, and spend their precious time here.
brrt i think it's a good idea too; i think the underlying notion has many names eg qw(meritocracy inclusiveness diversity) 20:03
japhb Yes, exactly, I've never liked the idea of specifying a list of protected classes. That just invites trouble. But saying flat out that we don't discriminate is much better. 20:04
brrt i'd classify that idea as 'the logic of discrimination does not apply here'
unfortunately, each of the above (e.g. meritocracy) also has its problems 20:06
japhb hobbs++ # Yes, completely agreed. We ought to be able to look at our guidelines in 100 years and still feel like they are the right ones.
masak brrt: I see "meritocracy" being called out in various places as really meaning "status quo systemic inequality" 20:07
brrt yeah, that for one thing
dalek ast: c91fdd2 | moritz++ | S12-class/stubs.t:
Fix test description
 20:08
japhb Yeah, meritocracy is a -1 from me. It has been too often used to justify systematic biases.
brrt one of the bigger problems of meritocracy is that you have to have a shared value system in the first place
japhb brrt: Or even agree that "merit" is a low-dimensional space. 20:09
brrt yes, that too :-)
japhb Oh, one more thought on writing down these community guidelines: Perl 6 was always intended to be, among other things, the community's rewrite of itself. I think we did a pretty good job of that. Now we need to document that rewrite, so that other communities, now and in the future, can benefit from it. Witness the simple effect of -Ofun, when we started publicizing that. 20:12
masak japhb: +1 20:13
dalek ast: 7f8b240 | moritz++ | S05-capture/dot.t:
Remove three tests with wrong assumptions about capturing
20:13 jaffa4 left
japhb I feel like we have a moral responsibility to make more of the world a better place, not just #perl6, and I think we have found (a tiny piece) of how to do that. (Yes, maybe this marks me as an idealist -- but just like there's a moral reason for the Artistic License, I see a moral value here.) 20:14
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japhb feels like a young kid again saying stuff like that ... "Mom, Dad, why don't people just *stop having wars*?" 20:15
masak well, kids are not exactly wrong asking that. it's a really good question. 20:16
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brrt unfortunately (call me what you will), sometimes there is a good answer 20:17
dalek ast: bcc7651 | moritz++ | S06-operator-overloading/sub.t:
Correct test, unfudge for rakudo (RT #124980)
synbot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=124980
brrt although i'm at a loss to find the good reason for most wars in recent history 20:18
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brrt wwi, no good reason, wwii, no good reason, korean war, unknown, vietnam war, no good reason, first gulf war, hmmm 20:20
falkland war, not sure
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jnthn Well, some regimes like to put in their troops to other countries to try and foster domestic support for themsleves... 20:22
brrt that's... not a good reason, i think
jnthn No, it's really, really not
But depressingly common and - worst of all - successful
In the immediate, anyway.
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brrt the first gulf war was actually quite reasonable. the kuwaiti had lots of oil and few people. the iraqi had lots of people and proportionally less oil 20:23
the allied forces had lots of reasons to ensure stable supply of oil 20:24
which was threatened
japhb hopes that he did not metaphorically throw a match into a powder room
In any case, I think there are lots of good reasons to write our community guidelines down. I want them to feel like *our* guidelines, not someone else's. And I want them to be timeless, operating at the same extra level of abstraction that Perl 6, and the community participants, already do. 20:25
jnthn japhb: Heh, no, I'm just too easily distractable today. :) And +1 on "community guidelines" being documentation of the nice things we already have - though it's to help us hold on to them as well as sharing it with other communities, I think :) 20:27
brrt there's a reason we've had a spot for S27 for all htis time :-)
japhb jnthn: Yup, with you 100%. 20:28
brrt: :-)
dalek line-Perl5: 070367e | (Stefan Seifert)++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6:
Manually shut down the first perl on program exit

Perl 6 does not guarantee that DESTROY methods are called at program exit. Make sure at least the first Perl 5 interpreter is correctly shut down and thus can e.g. flush its output buffers. This should at least fix the vast majority of use cases. People who really do use multiple Perl 5 interpreters are probably experienced enough to find proper workarounds for their cases.		 20:29
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dalek line-Perl5: 9ce0272 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | Build.pm:
Revert "Detect perls not configured with a shared library"

This reverts commit f7b4564ae909100d3daaf9fb1b795e587e01903d.
Apparently Inline::Perl5 can also use a libperl.a instead of a libperl.so, so -Duseshrlib is not really neccessary. We'll have to find another way to give a better error message to the user.
Thanks to Tux++ for pointing this out.		 20:32
nine [Tux]: ^^^ sorry for the inconvenience
brrt: without this stable supply of oil we could have had research into renewable energy decades earlier 20:34
brrt that sucks, huh
nine japhb: Count me in on your idealistic world view :)
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brrt although, i'm not sure if that's true; wind and hydropower for mechanical purposes have been developed before the industrial revolution 20:35
i should not spam you so much :-) 20:36
nine those were very modest times power consumption wise
20:37 sjn_phone_ left
brrt see you tomorrow! 20:38
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PerlJam japhb++ Feeling like a young kid again is a good thing :) 20:52
dalek line-Perl5: b561782 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | p5helper.c:
Make sure to call PERL_SYS_TERM only after the last interpreter was shut down

This is hopefully the real fix for the rare but infamous panic: MUTEX_LOCK (22)
  hoelzro++ provided further insight:
  "Ok, I was mistaken in my thoughts on DESTROY order, but DESTROY does play a
role in this bug. The real culprit is the END block at the end of Inline::Perl5
p5_terminate tears down all of the global things that perl uses, and after the END block is run is when the DESTROY methods are run. That's the bug!"
p5_terminate now only sets a flag that p5_destruct_perl checks to see if in addition to perl_destruct() and perl_free() it should also PERL_SYS_TERM()
Thanks to hoelzro++ for investigating!		 20:54
vendethiel nine: what happens if I spawn interpreters from multiple threads? *g* 20:56
nine vendethiel: try it :) I did fix a couple of places where this could be a problem and did very basic testing. But nothing fancy so far. 20:57
vendethiel has never used Perl5, so rarely thinks about "I need to use *that* from CPAN!"
nine vendethiel: aaand yes, the simple interpreter counter I just introduced is not thread safe.
vendethiel nine: yeah, I was thinking about that :P. Well, will it matter in practice, that I don't know... 20:58
PerlJam vendethiel: as soon as you realize CPAN has solutions to all manner of problem waiting for you to download and use .... you may think it more
nine There are probably a few more threading bugs you'd hit before this becomes an issue
vendethiel nine: right :)
PerlJam: oh, I'm sure it does (like other languages' package managers), I just don't know about them 20:59
admittedly, it's much easier to find them in CPAN than in, say, npm, with names like "bluebird" 21:03
RabidGravy is it possible to have multi submethods at all or is it just the peculiar way BUILD is called that prevent that being a multi
actually ignore me, that does work 21:04
PerlJam nine++ btw, Inline::Perl5 has given me great joy on occassion. It's a tool I didn't realize I needed until it existed (ack was that way for me too). Before I'd try to solve problems in Perl 6 where the bar was too high, now I can punt to Perl 5 modules for some bits and just code the P6 parts that I want. 21:05
dalek line-Perl5: b41e80a | (Stefan Seifert)++ | README.md:
Document that P5 functions/methods are always called in list context

Thanks to hoelzro++ for pointing out this omission.
jnthn RabidGravy: You'd probably have to write an explicit proto submethod 21:06
vendethiel nine: up to which point do you think P5 looking like P6 made things easy?
nine PerlJam: glad to hear that it's helping someone in the way I inteded it to :)
vendethiel considered making an Inline::Racket
RabidGravy jnthn, roight. The rreason was confiused was I forgot that a named param multi always wins over a () unless you ! it 21:07
nine vendethiel: it certainly helped that there's a 1 to 1 relationship between many things in Perl 5 and 6. Most of all that both have scalars, arrays, hashes and so on. But the same is true with Python with Python 3 actually being a bit closer to Perl 6 than Perl 5 is. 21:08
hoelzro nine: do you have plans to allow a scalar or void context call?
nine hoelzro: plans no. Having a plan would indicate that I knew how :) But I'm wide open for suggestions and am thinking about how to do this. 21:09
hoelzro nine: I've been thinking about that myself; exporting something like scalar($p5_obj.method) would be nice
you could easily export scalar as a macro 21:10
but how it would indicate scalar context, I'm not sure
nine vendethiel: what helps more than the surface similarities is that both languages are very dynamic and give you tools to cheat like AUTOLOAD in Perl 5 and FALLBACK in Perl 6.
vendethiel my $*P5_CONTEXT = P5::Context::Void *g*
nine That would probably be the easiest way. 21:11
vendethiel nine: that's fair. I love the way you can go, say, perl6+java+python+perl5, though :P
nine: that can be "abstracted away" in a sub or macro
nine vendethiel: I really want to try using Perl 5's Inline::Java through Inline::Perl5 on MoarVM ;) 21:12
vendethiel I'd love to read about that!
21:13 colomon left
nine I hope to find some time in the coming weeks. But there's also YAPC::EU on the horizon and I have a talk to prepare. And I've 10 minutes more than at FOSDEM and quite a few gotchas less to talk about ;) 21:14
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vendethiel has yet to finish his own talk, but still needs to read some of Inline::5's code 21:17
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jnthn has yet to start his talk... 21:24
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masak same here. 21:29
(I haven't started jnthn's talk either) :P
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masak in Perl 6, if you add an op without specifying precedence, it gets the tightest possible precedence, right? 21:33
jnthn No
There are defaults by category 21:34
masak oh, I see.
jnthn masak: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/....nqp#L4322
jnthn lols at the name of the hash just before the method... 21:35
masak :P
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masak well, I chose the "tighter than anything" approach for custom ops in 007, and I ran into an interesting design surprise. 21:36
namely, prefixes and postfixes are comparable in their precedence -- they're kind of in the same "precedence namespace", unlike infixes -- and it's perfectly legit to mix the precedences of prefixes and postfixes. 21:38
and so you may end up with a precedence ordering which flips back and forth between postfix and prefix any number of times. 21:39
on the other hand, you don't want to install prefixes to be tighter than postfixes by default, because... that's not Least Surprise. prefixes tend to be looser. 21:40
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masak so you go, "ok, let's install a new postfix at the boundary". but there is no "the boundary" under this model. 21:41
I'm tempted to go with "the first (loosest) boundary", but I don't really have anything that tells me that'll work better than "the last (tightest) boundary". 21:43
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skids github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/475 21:46
For anyone who wants to test drive this: 21:47
irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-07-22#i_10935111
Hopefully someone will have the tuits to look at it this time.
jnthn skids: I quickly glanced over the patches and didn't see anything of particular concern. 21:51
skids Thanks! 21:52
jnthn How do they do against spectest? 21:53
skids Only two tests fail on it, both of which arguably need tweaking. 21:54
I don't trust my perf numbers because I'm working while the spectest runs, so I don't know whether there is impact there. 21:55
The tests in need of attention are noted in the commits.
jnthn I doubt there'll be a significant one, having looked over the patches
OK, do you have a PR for roast also? 21:56
Or if I was the merge this, could you quickly take care of those?
21:56 colomon joined
skids I have push on roast. I can take care of them tonight, after a decommute (they just turned off the air conditioning here.) 21:56
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jnthn skids: OK, well if I'm still about just ask when you're ready, or anybody else with a commit bit 21:57
skids Should be about an hour.
jnthn (Just want to avoid having folks report spectest regressions here)
OK
skids Thanks again.
jnthn It hit 40C here today and will take forever to cool down, so I may well still be about...
Trying to sleep until it's cooler in here is a waste of time :)
22:01 vendethiel left
sjn jnthn: it's "just" 31 here :-P 22:01
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jnthn sjn: Urgh. Can we have winter back soon? :) 22:02
22:02 skids left
jnthn hopes he gets a really cold winter in return for this really hot summer 22:02
sjn Oslo is 21°C now
Lund is 18°C! 22:03
damn those scandis with their fine weather
masak shoulda stayed in Sweden, jnthn :P
rangerprice www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd2B6SjMh_w beautiful music :) 22:05
sjn daxim_: bumped into that guy who organizers the "We Love Programming Languages" meetup, and he said he's planning to do a Perl 6 meetup in October
jnthn masak: Bah, I barely got any snow in the winters there the last couple of years :P 22:06
sjn daxim_: I suggested that he should come to the KAMEL-grillen wien.pm is organizing, to plan a little
jnthn And I'm closer to some mountains here if I really want to escape the heat :)
sjn: Is that...an event when camel meat will actually be grilled? 22:07
sjn jnthn: come and see for yourself ;)
jnthn Damn, I don't have "it's a long way" as an excuse... :)
sjn jnthn: meetu.ps/2J86t5 22:08
jnthn oooh :) 22:09
sjn isn't sure about the availability of camel meat in Vienna
jnthn I'm actually free that day
sjn :D
jnthn Though I'm meant to be taking some time off travel and relaxing so I can feel well again... 22:10
Will see :)
sjn jnthn: bring your wife :D
Donauinsel is a quite nice place for a barbecue
jnthn sjn: She's not made it here yet, sadly 22:11
sjn ah, ok
well, next time then :)
jnthn But yeah, once she is here I doubt I'll be able to go to Vienna without her wanting to follow along. 22:12
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masak 'night, #perl6 22:13
jnthn 'night, masak
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sjn nn masak 22:17
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rangerprice m: print 2+2 22:19
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«4»
rangerprice m: print 2+|${5}
camelia rakudo-moar 43a2ce: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/BQ5q7fb_Cq␤Unsupported use of ${5}; in Perl 6 please use $4␤at /tmp/BQ5q7fb_Cq:1␤------> 3print 2+|${5}7⏏5<EOL>␤»
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RabidGravy right that's me done for wednesday 22:22
itz bratislava-- # damm hawt
bratislava++ # cheap beer 22:23
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jnthn :) 22:24
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rangerprice Perl 5 threads's compatible with Perl 6 ? 22:52
TimToady not really, except in the sense you could run a different P5 interpreter with each P6 thread 22:54
what P5 calls threads is more like fork emulatoin
*tion
rangerprice So P6 have a newly threading system ? 22:56
TimToady yes
virtualsue is pretty sure the answer is yes, because the p5 one is ready for retirement 22:57
rangerprice oh okay
virtualsue actually i was 100% positive, not pretty sure ;-) 22:58
huf lr
dammit.
23:04 spider-mario left 23:07 [Tux] left 23:08 amurf joined 23:12 amurf left 23:17 rangerprice left 23:18 rangerprice joined
rangerprice Is P6 threading system totally fonctionnal ? 23:19
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skids Hrm. It's hard to think of a way to get the test for 115436 to still test for the essence of the RT, when Failure.new now takes pretty much anything as args. 23:28
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dalek ast: c2a8e0e | skids++ | S0 (2 files):
Tweaks for PR#475 (new Exception code.)

Comment out another that checks an error on something that cannot fail anymore
   (unless someone can figure out a way to make it.)		 23:38
skids jnthn: so that commit should take care of roast. 23:45
jnthn skids: OK :) 23:46
dalek kudo/nom: cac198b | skids++ | src/core/Backtrace.pm:
Fix some bounds overruns in new lazy backtrace code discovered
rakudo/nom: 8042bc9 | skids++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
jnthn skids++
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skids sorry dalek :-) 23:48
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skids jnthn++ thanks for the review/push. 23:53
FatalNIX so whats new with p6?
skids Since about what time?
FatalNIX since the beginning of time.
no er, hmm. maybe 2 years ago
skids Well, that's a long story :-)
FatalNIX which is about the last time I looked at it I think 23:54
23:54 cognominal left
skids Hrm, the pause button was pushed on parrot so moar and jvm are the current leading backends. 23:56
jnthn My usual weekly grant report (covers last week's work): 6guts.wordpress.com/2015/07/23/thi...uff-stuff/
'night, folks o/
skids o/ sleep well
FatalNIX jvm is racudovm or something right?
I'm actually sort of curious how easy it is for java to call perl6 functions and vice versa now. 23:57
skids rakudo-j yes.
FatalNIX because if the integration is good, maybe I can make an example test Minecraft mod with perl 6.
as a demo
skids Not sure about that kind of interop. NativeCall for C is now formally part of rakudo.
FatalNIX I see, 23:58
skids I'm just not a java person so I haven't kept tabs on that.
But Perl5/Perl6 interop is here now.
FatalNIX neither am I a java person, but if it worked nicely, it would mean I can use p6 in the future and not have to deal with fugly java :D 23:59
23:59 rangerprice joined

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