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Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
mr_micawber Have a rational question now: How do I turn an Array of Lists into a flat Array. .flat doesn't cut it. 00:00
ugexe .map(*.flat) or .map(*.flat).flat 00:01
leont .flatmap(*.flat) ?
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leont m: [ ( 1, 2), (3, 4) ].map(*.flat).perl.say 00:02
camelia rakudo-moar 0fa13c: OUTPUT«((1, 2).Seq, (3, 4).Seq).Seq␤»
leont m: [ ( 1, 2), (3, 4) ].flatmap(*.flat).perl.say
camelia rakudo-moar 0fa13c: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4).Seq␤»
leont m: [ ( 1, 2), (3, 4) ].flatmap(*.flat).list.perl.say
camelia rakudo-moar 0fa13c: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4)␤»
mr_micawber Seems quite wordy ;-) Back to hacking! 00:03
leont tends to flatten things all the time, that may just be his style 00:04
AlexDaniel mr_micawber: rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=127121
mr_micawber: may be relevant to your question
mr_micawber Studying... 00:05
bpetering rosettacode /% 00:06
* /^B/ half done
about half work, I'll fix the rest soon
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Skarsnik good night #perl6 00:07
bpetering night!
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grondilu Juerd: you tagged rosettacode.org/wiki/Arithmetic-geo...lculate_Pi as broken but it works fine with me. 00:17
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grondilu $ perl6 --version 00:18
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grondilu This is Rakudo version 2015.12-69-g3568c1e built on MoarVM version 2015.12 00:18
implementing Perl 6.c.
bpetering works fine for me too ("This is Rakudo version 2015.12 built on MoarVM version 2015.12 00:19
implementing Perl 6.c")
00:19 iml_ left
grondilu pulls the very latest rakudo and compiles 00:20
flussence works on 2015.12-116-g0fa13c0e85ef too 00:21
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timotimo uh ... bwuh? 00:30
gist.github.com/timo/aba86c6375b4c1857839 - why do i get a bunch of allocations regarding an X::Dynamic::NotFound every time the loop there runs? 00:31
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timotimo it doesn't cause much of time usage, but why does it do that at all? 00:32
skids Some code is generating a soft Failure object and then handling it before it gets thrown. 00:35
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bpetering huggable: life, the universe and everything 00:35
huggable bpetering, nothing found
dalek kudo/nom: f6b956d | timotimo++ | src/core/HyperSeq.pm:
remove debug output, see also RT #127190
 00:36
skids Though odd that the X::AdHoc and the X::Dynamic::Notfound are both alloced -- I would expect a failure to only need one X::
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Mouq depends on when INITIALIZE_DYNAMIC gets called; that's the only thing that creates those, AFAICT 00:36
Juerd grondilu: It works fine here too. I probably just used the wrong tag. Thanks for letting me know. 00:37
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timotimo skids: i think the X::AdHoc is there just to get a backtrace ... 00:38
oh 00:40
i think i know what that is
probably the code for filtering out repetitions in .gist
i wonder if there's some magic nqp:: op that can figure out if a dynamic variable "exists" 00:41
skids If Backtraces could be serialized (I tried they cannot) then one might be able to, when conditions merit it, create one static Failure object that just serves as a marker for a particular area of code, which would never need allocation of anything until it got thrown. You don't always need a freshly created creation-time bt. 00:42
timotimo i ... don't think that'd work 00:43
the earlier parts of the bt are unlikely to match whatever earlier object you've built
Mouq nqp::isnull(nqp::getlexdyn(nqp::unbox_s(name))) ? 00:44
skids Yeah but sometimes you just want the first backtrace to give a line number somewhere near the right place to look, and it is otherwise useless (the second one is what matters). 00:45
Often the first bactrace is mostly redundant to the second one. 00:46
In general we could use some more flavors of Failure behavior.
Mouq m: use nqp; my $*foo = 1; { say nqp::isnull(nqp::getlexdyn('$*foo')) }
camelia rakudo-moar 0fa13c: OUTPUT«0␤»
Mouq m: use nqp; my $*foo = 1; { say nqp::isnull(nqp::getlexdyn('$*bar')) }
camelia rakudo-moar 0fa13c: OUTPUT«1␤»
lsm-desktop k/ 00:47
timotimo cool
Mouq++
this is unlikely to be worthwhile, but i'll patch it in anyway :)
Hotkeys since we have List.flatmap can we get List.flatgrep?
00:47 lsm-desktop is now known as lsm
Hotkeys :p 00:47
leont Why would that make sense? 00:49
Hotkeys it might not I'm just doing some golfing and it would save a character
:p
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leont Fair enough :-p 00:50
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timotimo so anyway ... looking at the output for a few different classes, it seems like the BUILDALLPLAN costs only very, very little time all in all 00:59
er, i mean executing the BUILDALLPLAN via BUILDALL 01:00
before i measured i had been thinking about maybe implementing jumplists in the optimizer or inside spesh, as that'd trigger in the BUILDALL "interpreter"
hm, actually i put the start time measurement before the call to BUILDALLPLAN 01:03
i wonder if that changes things
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zwu Hi, what is signature binding. Please give me an example code, thanks. The code line in doc my (*@x) := foo(); # signature binding, but I didn't see the variable @x. 01:07
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timotimo i don't understand 01:12
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Mouq zwu: 'my (...) := ...' is a lot like the calling function 'sub baz (...) {}; baz(...)', and you can use many of the same symbols. For example: 01:20
m: my (|c) := (1,2,3, :foo<bar>); say c
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«\(1, 2, 3, :foo("bar"))␤»
Mouq m: my (*@a, *%h) := (1,2,3, :foo<bar>); say @a; say %h
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«[1 2 3]␤foo => bar␤»
Mouq m: my ($a,:$foo,|) := (1,2,3, :foo<bar>); say $a; say $foo
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«1␤bar␤»
Mouq Does that address you question? 01:21
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zwu yes, thanks Mouq. Finally understand the signature binding to each individual variables, is the * in the *@a here for the whatever? 01:24
Mouq Kinda :) doc.perl6.org/type/Signature#Slurpy...Parameters 01:25
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zwu Great! Thanks! 01:28
I love it!
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zwu it is more flexible in the form of signature binding, and I prefer my (*@a, *%h) := (1,2,3, :foo<bar>) over my (@a,*%h) := ([1,2,3],:foo<bar>) 01:31
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Juerd m: my @foo = ^3; @foo ,= 3; say @foo; 01:32
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«(\Array_65238112 = [Array_65238112 3])␤»
Juerd ,= was really neat pre-glr. Oh well.
Although someone might find a use for it anyway :) 01:34
zwu sorry, what is the ,= here
Juerd m: my $foo = 1; $foo ,= 2; say $foo;
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«(\List_57377656 = (List_57377656 2))␤»
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Juerd zwu: Oh, don't pay much attention to it. It's an operator like += but it isn't really useful :) 01:35
zwu: Perl 6 lets a lot of operators exist automatically, so if you define an infix operator ♥ you get ♥= for free.
zwu: Likewise, FOO ,= BAR means FOO = FOO , BAR
At some point in Perl 6 history, that worked like .append 01:36
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zwu thanks, I know how powerful the operators features! 01:36
Mouq m: sub infix:<♥> ($a,$b) { "$a loves $b" }; my $info = "Mouq"; $info ♥= $*PERL; say $info 01:38
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Mouq loves Perl 6␤»
Juerd still really loves .= and how that works out with type objects
Mouq: Nice example!
timotimo aye, .= is neato 01:39
Mouq . is an infix now, isn't it? So .= isn't as much of a hack anymore either 01:40
m: say "abcd" . comb
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«(a b c d)␤»
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Juerd m: sub infix:<♥> ($a,$b) { "$a loves $b" }; my &infix:<loves> := &infix:<♥>; my $info = "Juerd also"; $info loves= $*PERL; say $info; 01:40
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Juerd also loves Perl 6␤»
Mouq Haha :)
Juerd Texas love.
[MadcapJake] lol 01:41
Juerd Mouq: . is an infix iff you use whitespace.
ugexe heh. so on the topic of windows invalid paths again... my $path = "foo:bar"; $path.IO.spurt("xxx"); say $path.IO.slurp.chars #`(3) say $path.IO.e #`(True) say $*CWD.dir[0].e #`(False) (also cmd.exe dir shows `foo` and Explorer shows `foo`)
Juerd Mouq: Whitespaceless . is still a specially parsed thing, with very tight precedence.
[MadcapJake] That was my first irc message seen inside Solus OS, I'm going to try and wire up some Solus packages for installing Rakudo and Panda 01:42
Mouq Juerd: right :)
ugexe so you can use invalid characters in file names just fine, except `.dir` doesnt handle them properly
Juerd Mouq: So I guess that while .= is no longer a hack, . can now rightfully be considered one... ;)
timotimo . ? 01:43
oh, i see 01:44
Mouq Push down in one place and it pops up in another vOv
ugexe: I'd file it :/ 01:46
ugexe i think its more windows problem 01:47
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timotimo Mouq: such is the life of the waterbed 01:52
zwu I know the powerful named parameter as adverb, most time it is using the bool variable. Can we just have a naming tag for that name parameter such as foo($a, Mu :$adverb), in which $adverb can be undefined but just for the purpose of method dispatch? 01:53
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Juerd m: multi sub foo (:$bool where so *) { say "Yay" }; multi sub foo (:$bool) { say "Nay" }; foo(:bool); foo(); foo(:!bool); :foo(bool => 42); 01:57
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/2ZZSVBp4Jz:␤Useless use of ":foo(bool => 42)" in sink context (line 1)␤Yay␤Nay␤Nay␤»
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Juerd Argh, a : too many. 01:57
m: multi sub foo (:$bool where so *) { say "Yay" }; multi sub foo (:$bool) { say "Nay" }; foo(:bool); foo(); foo(:!bool); foo(bool => 42);
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Yay␤Nay␤Nay␤Yay␤»
timotimo for multiple dispatch, named parameters are only ever used for stalemate breaking, so you'll have to put the candidates in the right order in your source code
Juerd zwu: Something like that?
zwu given the multimethod dispatch, can we have similar generic template in c++, which instantiates to multiple methods/class from the template?
Juerd doesn't know C++ well enough to answer that question 01:58
timotimo hm, we don't have multi roles, eh? that'd be weird. 01:59
but we do have parametric roles, and you can mix in at run time 02:01
zwu I think the :named parameter restriction used for the multiple dispatch maybe more powerful and flexible than C++ template functions,
Juerd If there's any language feature that C++ does better than Perl 6 something went wrong ;) 02:03
timotimo "speed"? ;) 02:08
the way c++ and java restrict subclasses method signatures can be useful
for static analysis and such
Juerd timotimo: Speed is not a language feature :) 02:11
And yes, restrictions can be useful, but it's hard to argue that it's better to not have features because it enables other features. 02:12
I think that in general, more expressive languages tend to be slower and harder to analyse. 02:13
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Juerd m: sub foo (@bar[4]) { say @bar }; my @x[4] = ^3; say @x; say foo(@x); 02:16
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/v7QDOVhL9c␤Variable '@bar' is not declared␤at /tmp/v7QDOVhL9c:1␤------> 3sub foo (@bar[4]) { say 7⏏5@bar }; my @x[4] = ^3; say @x; say foo(@␤»
timotimo hm, shapes in argument lists are not parsed, eh? 02:17
Juerd The same code compiles in my local rakudo
This was not the bug I was looking for...
timotimo it's sad that there's still more than one bug in rakudo 02:19
Juerd Huh? It stopped working after I restarted the repl.
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Juerd That's not fair :( 02:19
> sub foo(@bar[4]) { say @bar }
sub foo (@bar[4] where { ... }) { #`(Sub|106348200) ... }
But when I try it again it fails exactly like camelia did. 02:20
Oh, I already had an outer @bar
So it allows the signature but doesn't declare @bar...
m: sub foo (@bar[4]) { say "can haz bar" }; my @x[4]; foo(@x); 02:21
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«can haz bar␤»
Juerd m: sub foo (@bar[4]) { say "can haz bar" }; my @x[3]; foo(@x);
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter '@bar[4]'␤ in sub foo at /tmp/SkM7ctyXC7 line 1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/SkM7ctyXC7 line 1␤␤»
Juerd The type check works though
Although I'm not certain that it does the right thing, because a 3-element array will fit perfectly in a 4-element one. 02:22
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Juerd Rakudobugged as #127195 02:30
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awwaiid Well I have no idea how to get "use CSV:from<Ruby>" to work, but I did a proof-of-concept with something like "ruby_require 'csv'" 02:45
gist.github.com/awwaiid/6751d2897f63054c82ab
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zwu my question is that what is the state of running performance on rakudo and morvm. I know the performance is the focus in this year, but it is appreciated if there is a picture of current states. 02:46
for the performance comparison to python (without numpy) or javascript (node).
thanks!
hoelzro awwaiid: you could probably do it with NQP
use nqp: my $p6ml := nqp::gethllsym('perl6', 'ModuleLoader');
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hoelzro and then call that registration method I mentioned earlier 02:47
awwaiid hoelzro: all cool, I'll try that
hoelzro (disclaimer, I haven't tried this!)
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[Coke] anyone else having trouble loading RC? lots of 404 resources. 02:49
timotimo may have to set $p6ml to be Mu perhaps
awwaiid I also want the user to list what they want imported, something like: use csv:from<Ruby> <CSV> # because the name of the class and the name of the include file aren't predictable enough. Though eventually I guess I might be able to have it introspect what classes get created upon require on the ruby side.
hoelzro timotimo: good call
timotimo that's often what happens when you get something from nqp space 02:50
though i think the module loader is now implemented in pure perl6?
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timotimo wasn't that one of the big things in the last refactor? 02:50
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hoelzro is it? I have no idea =/ 02:50
awwaiid hoelzro: wait is that a colon after your use statement? 02:51
hoelzro er, sorry
typo
use nqp;
awwaiid ok great. was going to have to add another colon to my collection
timotimo you hate colons, i take it? 02:52
geekosaur colons in perl 6 are starting to seem like dots in haskell: too many different meanings >.>
hoelzro how many different meanings do they have in Perl 6? 02:53
I can think of two off the top of my head
(namespace separator and invocant marker)
er, labels
that's 3
adverbs
4
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hoelzro adverbial pair forms...4½ 02:54
timotimo marking named parameters
hoelzro hmm
timotimo in the signature, i mean
hoelzro I kinda lump that under adverbial pair forms, but true
awwaiid prefix for signature literal 02:56
timotimo and for object hashes
hoelzro ah, true
damn, that's a lot
awwaiid colon pairs count as a few since :foo -> :foo<True> but looks different
timotimo in type smileys
hoelzro timotimo: that's an adverb, right?
timotimo hm, you could perhaps call it that 02:57
awwaiid probably a type adverb; as we use this over and over they'll probably feel more like adverbs instead of different :)
we should try to get all the usages onto one line 02:58
did you get the one off of map: ?
hoelzro awwaiid: invocant marker
awwaiid ah. did you get the backwards method call then? 02:59
hoelzro which is that?
TimToady no, that one is more like Haskell's $
awwaiid method(obj: args...)
hoelzro awwaiid: you mean like method foo($self: *@args) ? 03:00
awwaiid TimToady: I definitely see why you said everyone wants the colon :)
TimToady all of these kinda fit in the category of "here's one thing that corresponds to the following things"
awwaiid hoelzro: yes
hoelzro awwaiid: I would also call that invocant marker
TimToady that one is invocant marker, yes 03:01
timotimo that's exactly the invocant marker :)
awwaiid oh. then what is the map: one
TimToady but $obj.map: 1,2,3 isn't
awwaiid right
timotimo oh hey TimToady, didn't hear you come in
TimToady that's really a precedence dropper like a listop
hoelzro ahhhh
[Coke] ~~
TimToady and like $ in Haskell
it's a left paren that doesn't require a right paren, as it were 03:02
timotimo did IO::ArgFiles disappear?
m: say IO::ArgFiles
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&ArgFiles'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/n_GRGvd8qj line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/n_GRGvd8qj line 1␤␤»
timotimo two tests in S02-types/which.t depend on IO::ArgFiles existing
i can't find it in the generated core setting at least 03:03
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colomon What’s the current state of p6 JSON? 03:07
hoelzro timotimo: I think it was on the chopping block 03:08
timotimo colomon: i have a fast json implementatoin that's not full-featured, there's at least one nativecall-based one around some C parser and we still have JSON::Tiny 03:10
colomon and JSON::Pretty, I see.
Mouq There's also
m: my $a = 1; say $a.:<++> 03:11
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«2␤»
colomon and isn’t something built in?
Mouq And also the :, ::, and ::: forms in Regexes
colomon timotimo++
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awwaiid Mouq: I kinda think of regexes as a separate embedded language 03:12
Mouq True enough :)
awwaiid Mouq: so what is the colon doing there, saying the next thing is quotes?
colomon actually, for my purposes at this very moment, I’d be perfectly happy with something which can pretty print a JSON structure. 03:13
awwaiid was the colon in infix:<+> listed already?
Mouq In the first? $a.:<++> is the same as ++$a
m: my $a = 1; say $a.:<!>
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«False␤»
Mouq That counts as namespace separator, I think 03:14
awwaiid hm. I think there is one like that for multi-dispatch full names too (or same thing)
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hoelzro oh, longname? (I think that's what it's call) 03:15
awwaiid ya that
hoelzro like method term:sym<...>
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gfldex m: my @c = Nil, a => 42; dd Nil ∈ @c; 03:19
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
gfldex :-|
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timotimo is "Not In List" an element of every list? 03:22
awwaiid m: :hmm(5).key.what.say ; :hmm<5>.key.what.say
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Method 'what' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/9ajCZdvM1v line 1␤␤»
timotimo has to be WHAT 03:23
awwaiid m: :hmm(5).key.WHAT.say ; :hmm<5>.key.WHAT.say
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«(Str)␤(Str)␤»
awwaiid I expected the first to be Int
timotimo um, why would the key be Int? when the key is "hmm"?
awwaiid er
oops
m: :hmm(5).value.WHAT.say ; :hmm<5>.value.WHAT.say 03:24
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«(Int)␤(IntStr)␤»
awwaiid nothing to see here :)
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awwaiid timotimo: no, I like the colons. That's why I collect them :) 03:33
timotimo hmm
awwaiid so for $a.:<++>, that is the prefix operator as-method invocation; are there other similar things for postfix etc? 03:35
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gfldex m: sub f(){Nil}; my @c; @c[0] := f; dd @c; say so do for @c { .&infix:<===>(Nil) } 03:36
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Array @c = [Nil]␤True␤»
gfldex m: sub f(){Nil}; my @c; @c[0] := f; dd @c; say Nil ∈ @c;
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Array @c = [Nil]␤False␤»
timotimo well, i know an infix could be invoked on an object with .&[+], but how to do a postfix? i think just .++ would do it 03:37
gfldex m: sub f(){Nil}; my @c; @c[0] := f; dd @c; say so do for @c { .&postfix:<++> }
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Array @c = [Nil]␤Cannot call postfix:<++>(Nil); none of these signatures match:␤ (Mu:D $a is rw)␤ (Mu:U $a is rw)␤ (Int:D $a is rw)␤ (int $a is rw)␤ (Bool:U $a is rw)␤ (Bool:D $a is rw)␤ (Num:D $a is rw)␤ (Num:U $a…»
gfldex m: sub f(){Nil}; my @c; @c[0] := 1,2; dd @c; say so do for @c { .&postfix:<++> }
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Array @c = [(1, 2),]␤Cannot call postfix:<++>(List); none of these signatures match:␤ (Mu:D $a is rw)␤ (Mu:U $a is rw)␤ (Int:D $a is rw)␤ (int $a is rw)␤ (Bool:U $a is rw)␤ (Bool:D $a is rw)␤ (Num:D $a is rw)␤ (Num…»
Mouq awwaiid: just $a.++ 03:38
:P
gfldex m: sub f(){Nil}; my @c; @c] = 1,2; dd @c; say so do for @c { .&postfix:<++> }
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/C659bJbQyL␤Unexpected closing bracket␤at /tmp/C659bJbQyL:1␤------> 3sub f(){Nil}; my @c; @c7⏏5] = 1,2; dd @c; say so do for @c { .&pos␤»
gfldex m: sub f(){Nil}; my @c; @c = 1,2; dd @c; say so do for @c { .&postfix:<++> }
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Array @c = [1, 2]␤True␤»
Mouq That works too :)
gfldex m: sub f(){Nil}; my @c; @c[0] := f; dd @c; say Nil ∈ @c;
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Array @c = [Nil]␤False␤»
gfldex that should work too
only sub infix:<<"∈">>($a, $b --> Bool) 03:39
but it wont with that signature
awwaiid oh! := is another colon. good one.
Mouq ::=
awwaiid ::=?
gfldex compile time binding 03:40
Mouq bind-read-only
Colon isn't one of those hypothetical twigils is it? 03:43
hoelzro =:= 03:44
dammit, you're right Mouq
gfldex doc.perl6.org/language/variables#The_%3A_Twigil
hoelzro $:k
Mouq Oh, not even hypothetical, that's right
awwaiid good one 03:50
gist.github.com/awwaiid/268cf5a3517a87806897 is a collection (though I got distracted with the fun of writing out lots of colon-pairs) 03:51
geekosaur perl 6 colonoscopy? 03:52
awwaiid Golfing this down to one line is going to be tough 03:56
awwaiid goes to bed instead
hoelzro night awwaiid 03:57
Juerd Argh, why is reading code with one-letter variables so hard, and why do people continue to use them?
I was thinking maybe it would be worth looking into why stringification of integers was so slow. Python stringifies its integers very fast.
So I dived into libtommath's mp_toradix_n and into Python's long_to_decimal_string. 03:58
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Juerd Only to find that I can't really read that code because of the combination of really dense code (single letter variables) and my lack of math skills. 03:59
I can definitely follow what's going on with *str... But a, i, j, p, aa, z, t, d, w, and q are isn't quite so obvious. 04:00
They probably make more sense to people who already roughly know what the code does. 04:01
awwaiid Unfortunately deep-math is one of the places that I tend to forgive that ... because the long name of the variables would be like first-number, second-number, first-fudge-factor, second-fudge-factor. Though already I've contradicted myself because fudge-factor would be better than a delta-triange 04:02
Juerd I'm giving up anyway. 04:03
I don't know enough to fix this.
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Juerd What I did find is that Python has a special and optimized case for base 10 numbers, whereas libtommath uses the generic case for base 10 stringification 04:06
gfldex m: my @c; @c := 1,Nil,2; dd @c; say so Nil === any(@c);
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«(1, Nil, 2)␤True␤»
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Mouq Juerd++ regardless :) even reading good code sucks 04:12
dalek c: 9582910 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Nil.pod:
doc binding to Nil and test against Nil
 04:13
c: b25cfbd | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | / (4 files):
Merge remote-tracking branch 'upstream/master'
c: 258f79b | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Nil.pod:
Merge pull request #323 from gfldex/master

doc binding to Nil and test against Nil
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yurivish What does the ~ mean in headers => $<header>.map({ ~.<header-name> => ~.<header-value> })? 04:33
TimToady coerce to string 04:34
yurivish oh, right. It confused me because it looked like it was the object on which the method was being invoked.
is the code there something more-or-less like ~($_).<header-name>? 04:35
I mean ~($_.<header-name>)
TimToady yes, that's what it means 04:38
yurivish thanks.
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alber Greetings! Could someone advise please what the simplest way to read a web page in perl6? I tried to use 'LWP::Simple', but the line 'my $page = get('example.com')' causes an error 'get() is not a method of Str'. 05:36
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alber qualifying the name solved the problem 05:40
...although all examples used the unqualified name 05:41
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TimToady m: my $x = get('foo') 05:43
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Method 'get' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/XWGKt0qxQT line 1␤␤»
TimToady I'd say that 'get' was not properly imported, somehow
so it tried to use CORE::get instead, which just delegates to method get
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dalek c: a7e0056 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod:
doc Hash subscript adverbs
 06:12
c: d2b00f6 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod:
Merge pull request #324 from gfldex/master

doc Hash subscript adverbs
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gfldex LWP-Simple doesn't export any methods 06:21
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ugexe seems strange to use :ver<> in your depends fields at the moment when there is no way to find a specific version past the most recent available on github. as soon as one is updated your module will break until every single one is updated 06:42
gfldex: get is a method/routine on IO::ArgFiles (if thats what you were referring to) 06:45
m: say get
camelia rakudo-moar f6b956: OUTPUT«Céad slán ag sléibhte maorga Chontae Dhún na nGall␤»
gfldex i was not and the fellow who got problems with that is gone already
FROGGS Mouq: my Archive::Tar port is surely not idiomatic... problem is that I dont understand the code :o( 06:48
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dalek osystem: 496b15f | (Sam Morrison)++ | META.list:
Add AWS::Pricing to ecosystem
 07:19
osystem: 9dea55b | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | META.list:
Merge pull request #115 from scmorrison/master

Add AWS::Pricing to ecosystem
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nine .tell tony-o the one and only reason why I don't want to read the log is because it's a huge waste of time to read through thousands of lines of chatter when you already know what you want to tell me. If you have useful input, please just give it. 07:28
yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to tony-o.
nine .tell tony-o nothing would make me happier than someone coming up with a good plan where we don't have to recompile modules for every user.
yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to tony-o.
nine .tell awwaiid CompUnit::Repository::Perl5 (from core) is the only living example. github.com/niner/CompUnit-Repository-Panda is an example for adding such a repo at runtime. 07:30
yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to awwaiid.
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[Tux] csv-ip5xs 50000 18.313 18.201 07:43
test 50000 23.715 23.603
test-t 50000 12.841 12.729
csv-parser 50000 50.587 50.475
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lizmat timotimo: yes, I've removed IO::ArgFiles 07:55
and I removed the only test for it in WHICH.t
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lizmat .tell timotimo I've removed IO::ArgFiles and its only test (WHICH.t) if you think we should have a deprecation cycle, I could do that 08:05
yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
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nine Good morning lizmat! 08:10
lizmat nine o/
nine Do you happen to know anything about tony-o's rejected precomp work?
lizmat I'm afraid not
I can't recall anyway, but that may just be another effect of burnout 08:11
:-( 08:13
nine The irclog doesn't seem to know anything either 08:14
FROGGS I don't know either fwiw
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nine There are no pull requests by him either. 08:17
So surprise: I did his work anyway and ended up empty handed. Just hot air. 08:19
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stmuk_ if I have a script (rather than a module) I suppose the most easy way to take advantage of precomp is just to refactor most of the code into a module? 08:47
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lizmat stmuk_: atm, yes 08:49
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jkramer Can I use rakudobrew to build from git or just releases? 09:11
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nine stmuk_: that's not only good for precomp but also for testability :) 09:16
jkramer: AFAIK also from git nom (which is our master branch)
jkramer nine: Any idea how? Should there be a special entry in list-available or something? 09:17
nine jkramer: I've never used rakudobrew myself. If it's not documented, maybe look at the source code. It's quite easy to read 09:18
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jast rakudobrew --help seems to indicate that you can 09:24
dalek kudo/nom: 5b9d5eb | lizmat++ | src/core/Rakudo/Internals.pm:
initialize-sprintf-handler doesn't return anything
 09:26
jkramer jast: Where exactly? I'm probably blind but I can't see anything about git/nom.
jast rakudobrew build jvm|pre-glr|moar|all [tag|branch|sha-1] [--configure-opts=] 09:28
AFAICS that mean syou can use any tag/branch/commit ID from git
dalek kudo/nom: fdd431f | lizmat++ | src/ (4 files):
Make RAKUDO_MODULE_DEBUG show times in msecs

And only the difference between this and the previous step. Getting Perl6/Moduleloader.nqp to participate in that program, turned out to be something of a bridge too far: there is no setting loaded at that point, and the sprintf handler is also not initialized yet. So we don't show timings for loading the setting anymore.		 09:29
jkramer Ha, seems I was indeed blind. Thanks jast
Yup, 'build moar nom' seems to work. 09:31
lizmat afk for a few hours& 09:32
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_nadim .seen masak 09:34
yoleaux I saw masak 6 Jan 2016 22:58Z in #perl6: <masak> 'night, #perl6
masak is here 09:36
antenoon, #perl6
_nadim: yo
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RabidGravy morning! 09:42
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foodoo Hi, I have heard, that you can create a perl 5 block within a perl 6 program. What is the syntax for this? (Google did not give me any helpful results) 09:45
masak foodoo: it's not on by default 09:47
I think that was in a branch or something
DrForr foodoo: Use Inline::Perl5.
yoleaux 6 Jan 2016 16:09Z <ilmari> DrForr: Readline has a bunch of native functions with Int parameter/return types, which NativeCall now complains about
masak m: my $_ = "OH HAI"; { use v5; say }
camelia rakudo-moar 5b9d5e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find Perl5 in:␤ /home/camelia/.perl6/2015.12-118-g5b9d5eb␤ /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/site␤ /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/vendor␤ /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6␤ CompUn…»
DrForr .tell ilmari noted re: Readline, will unbreak. 09:48
yoleaux DrForr: I'll pass your message to ilmari.
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DrForr El_Che: Yes, 40 minutes for grammar, I'll be rewriting as well. 09:55
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nine foodoo: please have a look at github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5 09:56
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FROGGS foodoo: it was possible with an external module called v5, but that is currently not in a usable shape... instead if you want to access Perl 5 modules, use Inline::Perl5 as suggested 09:58
foodoo Thanks for the explanations :)
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DrForr Okay, nativecall question - IIRC 'int' in C is a floating type, just "at least 16 bits" yet the docs are saying to use int32. 10:30
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RabidGravy I did a quick survey the other day and found C ints to be 32 bit, I think you'd have to find a 16 bit platform to have a 16 bit int 10:33
nine I start to think that instead of outlawing int as NativeCall type, we should actually map it to the platform's C int. 10:34
RabidGravy but the perl "int" seems to be a native sized long which does vary between various systems
nine, yeah perhaps 10:35
arnsholt The size of a Perl 6 in depends on the platform
RabidGravy yeah, that's the point
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nine arnsholt: yes, but you can't use that currently for NativeCall 10:36
arnsholt The correct way is to have type whose size is explicitly defined to be "whatever the size of C's int is on this platform"
DrForr I'd agree with arnsholt, if only because 'int32' could cause a problem when moving to a 64-bit CPU. Or eventually when we go to 128-bit :) 10:37
arnsholt Especially since making what you want work would involve weird contortions to the P6int REPR that basically amount to letting you ask an integer type "are you the `int` type?" 10:38
DrForr I'll use 'int32' for the moment...
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RabidGravy and you can do something like "constant Nint = $*KERNEL.bits == 64 ?? int64 !! int32" if you need to 10:41
DrForr Feels a little hackish, but I'll accept it. 10:46
RabidGravy in my NC meanderings I've only found one place where a C library explicitly used a different storage size depending on the CPU bits 10:49
arnsholt Anything that uses size_t is word-size dependent 10:50
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RabidGravy yes 10:53
nine Perl 5's IV is depending on the CPU bits _and_ compilation settings
arnsholt Even better! =) 10:55
nine "easy" solution: sub p5_size_of_iv() returns size_t { ... } BEGIN native(&p5_size_of_iv); BEGIN my constant IV = p5_size_of_iv() == 8 ?? int64 !! int32; 10:56
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nine With size_t p5_size_of_iv() { return IVSIZE; } 10:56
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RabidGravy now I can't find the ctype trait, but I think that does actually take account of the native size 10:57
can't find where it is defined that is 10:58
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FROGGS nine: problem with Perl 6's int is that it can very well be 128bits on a future platform 11:00
RabidGravy yeah it uses Perl6/Metamodel/NativeHOW.nqp which presumably has the size compiled in 11:01
nine FROGGS: look at my commit message :) github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/comm...7ee1739aae 11:03
FROGGS nine++ # :o) 11:04
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nine A larger issue is Perl 5's NV type which may be a num80. We don't have support for that in NativeCall. 11:05
arnsholt We'll cross that bridge when we get to it 11:06
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arnsholt On any platform though, or just some? 11:06
FROGGS isnt that a IEEE float? 11:07
arnsholt No, pretty sure it isn't 11:08
FROGGS hmmm, I thought I had read about that
arnsholt x86 uses IEEE, and floats are power-of 2 sized
IEEE floats are super-general thoug, so could be a variant of IEEE floats though
nine num80 is a long double 11:10
RabidGravy you can explicitly set the native size of a type, though that may not deal with marshalling issues
nine I think you need to compile perl with -Dusemorebits to get that
jkramer I keep seeing "use v6;" in code samples everywhere. What does this actually do in a perl 6 program?
nine or -Duselongdouble
arnsholt RabidGravy: You're still dependent on the REPR knowing how to deal with that size; and the num REPR doesn't know about 80 bit floats 11:11
nine jkramer: it's mostly to give a useful error message when the program is accidentally run with perl instead of perl6
jkramer Ah ok
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arnsholt nine: On x86 presumably? long double is 16 bytes on my machine 11:13
RabidGravy though, "use v6.c;" will stop running on an older v6 too, and for the futurists "use v6.e" won't run at all
nine arnsholt: yes. I'm curious. What machine are you on? 11:15
arnsholt x64
Linux x64, to be specific 11:16
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nine arnsholt: there it's usually 80 bit precision stored in 12 or 16 bytes. Except for MSVC which uses double for long double. And lots of other exceptions. A tough read: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_double 11:17
dalek kudo/nom: 0e7102d | lizmat++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
Also let the world know when imports are done
 11:18
arnsholt Ah, that makes sense I guess. Just use two machine words and throw away the excess bits
FROGGS throws in www.perlmonks.org/bare/?node_id=587486 11:20
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dalek line-Perl5: 05196de | (Stefan Seifert)++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6:
Don't assume a storage size for 80 bit long double

Those 80 bits of precision are usually stored in 12 or 16 bytes. So we no longer assume anything. We know we support only 4 or 8 bytes. For everything else, error out.
Thanks to arnsholt++ for pointing this out!		 11:24
RabidGravy as a normal consumer can you even get computers that run a normal operating system that is other than 32 or 64 bits ? 11:26
dalek kudo/nom: 8f7cfde | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationRepository.pm:
Only fetch dependencies once
lizmat RabidGravy: I guess of your wallet is big enough :-)
nine RabidGravy: the answer to that will change over time :) 11:27
RabidGravy :)
nine lizmat: nice catch!
lizmat hmmm... I should probably just should have deleted the first line 11:28
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lizmat nine: is this not really debug info ? say "$id $src" if $*W and $*W.is_precompilation_mode; 11:29
nine no no no, that's essential! 11:30
lizmat ok :-)
nine It's the way we communicate the ids and source locations of dependencies back up to the dependant for writing into the .deps file
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lizmat okidoki 11:30
nine And I'm really surprised that using stdout for that has not been more of a problem 11:31
FROGGS ohh, it is when you actually add debug statements :o) 11:32
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nine Well STDERR is for debugging ;) 11:32
FROGGS yeah, potentially 11:33
dalek kudo/nom: 1a6f7fe | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationRepository.pm:
Other way of fetch deps only once

And some clarification why there's a "say" in there, nine++
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AlexDaniel I don't really see 128-bit systems coming… 11:47
moritz new idea: CPU registers for UUID 11:49
*UUIDs
lizmat FROGGS nine moritz is there a reason why we haven't bumped Moar / NQP recently? 11:50
especially because of the GC / string concat bug fixed in Moar the other day
moritz lizmat: I think we had the idea floating around that we do a point release of rakudo to support a star release
lizmat I wonder if that would fix the problem described in blogs.perl.org/users/sterling_hanen...6N4wNWStrD 11:51
JimmyZ I think NQP have bumped?
moritz lizmat: though iirc the current decision is to do the 2016.01 star instead
lizmat yeah, but not with that MoarVM fix, afaik
moritz: fwiw, that would make more sense to me
now, will 2016.01 be 6.c ?
moritz lizmat: it will support 6.c 11:52
nine Considering yesterday's progress, I'd say yes
moritz lizmat: and I expect several more rakudo and R* releases support 6.c
lizmat Q: does 6.c support Date.new($year,$month,$day) ? 11:53
nine Isn't the plan for all of them to support 6.c?
lizmat A: it depends :-(
2016.01 does, 2015.12 doesn't 11:54
it's questions like this that I worry about
masak lizmat: I thought Date.new($year, $month, $day) was ancient
lizmat masak: if it was, it's back 11:56
as an alternate interface, of course, Date.new(:$year,:$month,:$day) still works 11:57
moritz didn't the positional form always work?
FROGGS lizmat: IMO if the introduction of positionals to Date.new does not break 6.c (the roast branch), then rakudo 2016.01 still complies to 6.c 11:58
lizmat the only positiional form was Date.new(Instant)
FROGGS: it doesn't
moritz aye, a new feature doesn't break backwards compatiblity with the language
nine FROGGS: how does that look from a user's perspective? As a user I'd like to use that feature. What do I have to do? 11:59
lizmat but how can you make sure that using that new feature will work?
use v6.c will not be sufficient
if you happen to be running 2015.12
FROGGS sure, use v6.c cannot be enough because that feature is unspecced
awwaiid hops up and down
yoleaux 07:30Z <nine> awwaiid: CompUnit::Repository::Perl5 (from core) is the only living example. github.com/niner/CompUnit-Repository-Panda is an example for adding such a repo at runtime.
awwaiid Thanks nine! :) 12:00
FROGGS and if you wanna use unspecced stuff you might wanna use rakudo:ver(v2016.01) or something like that
lizmat someone might not be aware it is unspecced 12:02
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lizmat especially if it *is* in the doc 12:02
so I probably should move it from the doc until we hit 6.d ?
nine use v6.d.PREVIEW; 12:03
As suggested by jnthn++
lizmat so what lives in there ? 12:04
anything I put in nom?
nine anything you put in nom's src/core.d/ 12:05
lizmat so I we will have nom *and* core.d ?
so I would have to commit things twice, or maintain two branches ? 12:06
sorry if I seem belligerent, but I really don't have a mental image of how we're supposed to develop forward
nine No. Language versions have nothing at all to do with branches. We have the src/core/ directory for 6.c code and src/core.d/ for 6.d code that uses augment and supersede and other trickery to change 6.c into 6.d 12:07
lizmat without creating a massive backward maintenance hell on everybody, users and developers alike
nine Look at the example in the language_versions branch. The 6.d code simply deletes IO::ArgFiles, as that language version will no longer contain it
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lizmat I could argue that wouldn't even be needed, as there weren't really any tests for IO::ArgFiles in roast (apart for checking of existence) 12:09
so IO::ArgFiles was never part of 6.c
nine The existence check is enough to preclude removing it from 6.c
lizmat so removing the tai-utc class *is* alright then, as there wasn't even a check for its existence in roast 12:10
nine We could maybe make an exception for this, as we're new to this whole backwards compatibility train. But we could also just use it as an exercise. We'll have to figure out how to do this anyway. 12:11
moritz couldn't we just say constant IO::ArgFiles = WhateverTheNewNameIs and be happy?
lizmat I'm just very afraid that saying "that feature wasn't tested., so it can be removed / altered at will" is a meme that will not make module developers and toolchain people very happy 12:12
nine It really depends on how much we like our users ;)
lizmat moritz: we could, the new API is a superset of the old
moritz: well, apart from .new
:-(
but yeah, we could do a deprecation cycle for it
nine lizmat: exactly! That's why I'd err on the side of keeping it. Especially if keeping it doesn't cost all that much because we have a good back compat architecture
lizmat I don't worry too much about a deprecation cycle 12:13
I *do* worry about newish / untested features that accumulate between now and 6.d
for which module developers cannot test, other than trying them out with a CATCH block 12:14
nine Well before we cut a 6.d we'll have time to remove features again or write tests.
lizmat so, saying "use v6.c" in your module, doesn't really mean anything
nine There's still use v6.d.PREVIEW for getting at those features.
What about an extensions thing like in OpenGL? New OpenGL versions are usually just bundles of extensions that have been available individually before. 12:15
lizmat well, in the case of Date.new($year,$mointh,$day), it would mean maintaining that in two places
nine Why two places? 12:16
lizmat once in nom, once in 6.d
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lizmat the thing is, that the positional form of Date.new is basically an internal method for building all of the other .new candidates (well, not all, but some) 12:16
nine nom is completely tangential to 6.d 12:19
lizmat ok, now you lost me again :-( 12:21
I think I'll refrain from doing anything that changes / adds any interface or whatever, until at least 2016.01 comes out 12:22
nine The plan is to ship one source tree that implements all versions of Perl 6. What is currently in our src/core/ directory will be more or less frozen and implements 6.c. Future versions are overlays in directories like src/core.d/.
lizmat I'm just afraid I'll be making the work of the release manager more and more difficult
nine So you have your 6.c version of Date.pm in src/core/Date.pm and a file called src/core.d/Date.pm that contains augment class Date { method new($year, $month, $day) { ... }; }
lizmat so, maintain Date.pm at two places :-( 12:24
nine multiple places even, because there will be one directory for every language version 12:25
At $work we develop online tax calculation software. As tax laws change on an almost yearly basis, we have a calculations class for every calculator for the first year we introduced it. Every following year is a class derived from the previous year's class. 12:26
Skarsnik how that work when you want to remove stuff?
And hello
nine That's essentially the same architecture as jnthn suggested. Yes it sucks that you no longer get easy access to a consolidated view of the code running in the latest version, but of all the architectures we've tried, it's still the least sucky.
Skarsnik: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c5...2612f83ee5 12:27
masak lizmat: oh, I meant "ancient" as in, "has been in there for a long time" 12:28
Skarsnik That look like a nightmare to follow what is in what x)
arnsholt Skarsnik: At a guess, a stub implementation that throws an exception signalling that this is no longer relevant in this version of the tax laws, or nothing at all 12:29
lizmat masak: ah, ok, no it wasn't
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arnsholt Removing code is probably not going to happen frequently (if at all) since the software probably needs to be capable of rerunning the calculations for previous years 12:29
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nine arnsholt: yep 12:30
arnsholt I've a friend who works with similar stuff (laws changing) and he's explained how they never remove things, since things that occured under the old laws are still in the DB, so the software needs to handle it correctly
Skarsnik Did you look at how other major project handle this kind of stuff? I am just curious, I am not here to critic what you probably already spend lot of time thinking x) 12:31
lizmat I feel we need to make 6.c just equivalent to 2015.12
nine Nice detail: so far we've only once removed support for previous years. It was the years that made HTTP requests to the PHP code in which the tax calculation was implemented originally ;)
lizmat some bug fixes may be ported to that version
but anyting else is just 6.d.DEVELOP 12:32
keeping stuff in different dirs is just going to be a nightmare to maintain
cognominal hi *, can someone explain why macros are necessary at the end of github.com/jnthn/oo-monitors/blob/...onitors.pm
lizmat and so it will probably not be maintained correctly
I think we should learn from p5 here 12:33
nine lizmat: but how will a 6.d rakudo be able to run 6.c code?
lizmat nine: you mean as in: I'm running my code in 6.c, and load a module that says 'use 6.c' ? 12:34
nine Perl 5's code probably contains a lot of version or feature checks by now. That's not gonna make code better maintainable
Skarsnik how gcc does this kind of stuff
lizmat s:1st/c/d/
nine lizmat: yes
lizmat well, I don't see how we can *not* add a lot of version checks with this setup either ? 12:35
nine lizmat: or just run a script that was written for 6.c with a rakudo implementing 6.f
A script that may use IO::ArgFiles for example 12:36
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Skarsnik sound like a bad idea to want to keep old version (like v-2) running with the same code 12:37
nine Skarsnik: why?
We promise backwards compatibility. Why should keeping us to our promise be a bad idea? 12:38
lizmat no, that's not a bad idea 12:39
we shouljd
somehow :-)
Skarsnik maybe a buggy code make a feature work, maybe keeping a old stuff compatible make changing/adding something impossible. I am not even sure how that work with npq and moar/jvm behind
awwaiid nine: this is working great; do you know if I can get any extra params, like foo in: use csv:from<Ruby> :import<CSV>
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Skarsnik I mean, you know a lot much more of how everything work, so I am maybe wrong x) 12:40
nine awwaiid: github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/blob...5.pm6#L842 12:43
awwaiid: the whole method require will be of great interest to you I guess
Skarsnik: no matter what architecture we use, maintaining backwards compatibility will be a large part of "torturing the implementors" going forward. There's no way around that. You can only make it a bit less tedious. 12:45
Skarsnik: yet still we have to try. Because it's really one of the best features a language can have. 12:46
llfourn cognominal: they are used in the examples, do you mean why are they not subs? 12:49
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awwaiid nine: thanks. I already took some code from here :) . I think this bit makes sense, I hadn't understood it's purpose before 12:49
cognominal lifourn, yes, why macros not subs? 12:50
nine awwaiid: you mean it's not totally self explanatory? *g* I'm not really surprised ;)
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lichtkind i have a question regarding travis 12:50
llfourn cognominal: I don't know :( 12:51
cognominal: maybe try changing it to sub and see if everyhing is fine 12:52
cognominal probably masak or jnthn could answer
llfourn probably :)
nine I somehow cannot imaging jnthn reaching for macros when plain subs would do 12:53
llfourn cognominal: maybe so get-cond-attr is run at compile time? 12:54
ie faster
lizmat afaik, that was one of the reasons macros were not completely removed before 6.c, instead of being made "experimental'
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llfourn cognominal: notice how the arguments to the macros are known at compile time 12:55
RabidGravy Skarsnik, do you by any chance have access to a machine with the portmidi devel package installed? If so point gptrixie at the portmidi.h - it seems that it uses PortMidiStream all over the place, but never defines it
llfourn so essentially it's inlining the condition
cognominal yea probably
got Useless use of constant value not-empty in sink context (lines 15, 20)
Useless use of constant value not-full in sink context (lines 12, 22)
runing t/condition.t 12:56
dalek kudo/nom: 8f173f2 | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationRepository.pm:
Fewer $*RAKUDO_MODULE_DEBUG lookups please
llfourn that looks like a Greak Sink Refactor regression that wasn't caight because noone uses marcros :\
12:56 loren joined
nine lizmat: I wonder, how costly are those $*RAKUDO_MODULE_DEBUG lookups? 12:57
loren Hi, everyone..
12:57 Herby_ joined
Skarsnik RabidGravy, let me have a look x) 12:57
lizmat nine: they're pretty costly
Herby_ Good morning, everyone!
For lowly Windows users like myself, any word when a new rakudo MSI will be released? 12:58
cognominal lifourn, got "Can only use meet-condition in a monitor" when replacing macros by subs, so indeed the execution order matters.
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RabidGravy Skarsnik, how I would typically express it would be "class PortMidiStream is repr('CPointer') { }" and then lose the indirection later on 12:59
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RabidGravy but that would probably require a second pass 12:59
Skarsnik RabidGravy, it's a void type..
RabidGravy Skarsnik, yeah, quite a common thing in this kind of stuff 13:00
Skarsnik typedef void PortMidiStream; 13:01
RabidGravy yeah, but it's only every used as "PortMidiStream *"
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Skarsnik It's not lost, it's just I keep typedef as is when they ref a fundamental type like int/void... 13:02
lizmat m: my $*FOO = 42; for ^100000 { my int $a = $*FOO }; printf "%d", 1000 * (now - INIT now)
camelia rakudo-moar 1a6f7f: OUTPUT«143»
lizmat m: my $*FOO = 42; my int $FOO = $*FOO; for ^100000 { my int $a = $FOO }; printf "%d", 1000 * (now - INIT now)
camelia rakudo-moar 1a6f7f: OUTPUT«40»
lizmat m: my $*FOO = 42; my int $FOO = $*FOO; for ^100000 { }; printf "%d", 1000 * (now - INIT now) 13:03
camelia rakudo-moar 1a6f7f: OUTPUT«31»
RabidGravy more typical might be "typdef (void *) Foo" for this type of thing
lizmat m: say (143 - 31) / (40 - 31)
camelia rakudo-moar 1a6f7f: OUTPUT«12.444444␤»
Skarsnik RabidGravy, I have to go, sadly 13:04
lizmat now, it gets worse with dynamic lookups if there are more stack frames between the scope in which the dynamic is defined and the executing code
RabidGravy no worries
lizmat nine: so this is more like a best case scenario
FROGGS RabidGravy: what do you mean by "lose the indirection later on" ?
RabidGravy: you can also do: constant PortMidiStream = Pointer 13:05
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nine lizmat: many thanks for this clarification! 13:06
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cognominal lifourn, now it makes sense. So much magic going around :) jnthn++ 13:06
lizmat nine: do you think we will have a different value for $*PERL inside a "use v6.x" where x is different from the base ? 13:07
RabidGravy FROGGS, Something like that, currently it is doing "Pointer[PortMidiStream]" in the type constraints, but if I was writing it by hand I would see that and do "class PortMidiStream is repr(CPointer) ..." and lose the Pointer[]
loren Regex match are segment fault .. someone help help .. 13:08
RabidGravy which has the additional benefit of being able to add methods to it
lizmat nine: I wonder if we shouldn't cache $*PERL.compiler.id as well
nine lizmat: oh yes, definitely. Otherwise we'd get "Perl 6 (6.c)" forever as use v6.x will be the only way to request post-6.c semantics
lizmat ok, so we can't cache that per process :-)
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nine lizmat: to be honest, I didn't think much about performance of the Repository code, since as soon as something involves I/O, CPU time should only a small part of the cost anyway 13:09
lizmat yeah, I know
brrt jnthn++ for the stomp class posts
nine So it's even more shameful, that we read those .deps files twice. And completely uselessly as well :)
RabidGravy loren, well it shouldn't segfault but without code it's difficult to help
lizmat but at least not having to repeatedly lookup $*RAKUDO_MODULE_DEBUG seems to have shaved off about 5 msecs from loading Text::CSV
RabidGravy brrt, yeah they're very useful 13:10
nine nice!
loren RabidGravy, www.oschina.net/code/snippet_2531803_53446
abraxxa jnthn++ # indeed! very helpful to follow the thoughts
lizmat nine: about 2% worth
loren i shared the code
and data
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lizmat is suddenly remembering the first Perl Whirl in 2000 13:14
.oO( how long will it be until we have a Perl 6 Whirl :-)
brrt what was the perl whirl?
RabidGravy I can only just remember that far back 13:15
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TimToady a cruise to alaska 13:15
lizmat www.perl.com/pub/2000/06/perlwhirl.html # brrt
loren RabidGravy, is that link available ?
brrt a conference on a boat :-o
loren I use this script convert some data to another type 13:16
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RabidGravy loren, it is, but for me at least it is no good as I can only see part of the code and I don't understand Japanese 13:16
lizmat www.wired.com/2000/10/cruise/ # less formal description
loren RabidGravy, that's chinese 13:17
RabidGravy see! I don't even know what language it is :)
lizmat sadly, Bill Harp passed away a few years ago :-(
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nine Woah 13:18
lizmat nine?
13:18 stmuk__ joined
RabidGravy he just played Black Sabbath at 78? 13:18
loren OK, still thank you willing to help 13:19
perlawhirl lizmat: i also don't know what the Perl Whirl was... despite my nick
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lizmat perlawhirl o/ 13:19
:)
Herby_ I'm in a windows environment. Is there a simple way to benchmark two programs, to compare how long they take to run?
stmuk__ wonders if November works in January
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nine lizmat: a Perl Whirl might even get me to go to the US :) 13:19
dalek kudo/nom: 564f0d6 | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationRepository.pm:
Only make an .IO once
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loren RabidGravy, i think there must be some problem with regex match, Perl 5 can process that file . 13:20
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DrForr . o ( tiltaperl? ) 13:24
Also, readline change pushed. There are other issues open, I'll look at those tonight.
perlawhirl hi perlers... is there a 'stat' like method i can use to get file permissions (not just IO's .r or .rwx stuff) 13:26
nine Herby_: looks like there aren't any Windows users present besides you. I'd guess that an .msi will become available somewhere in the next two weeks. 13:27
RabidGravy loren, okay I guessed my way to showing the whole code, what value of "$line" causes it to segfault?
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lizmat perlawhirl: .r / .w / .rw / .rwx / .rx etc. 13:28
Herby_ nine, thanks for the reply
lizmat ah, perlawhirl : didn't read throgh
loren RabidGravy, you haven't run it ?
perlawhirl lizmat: yeah, so for example, on a nix like os, i would also like permissions for group and other 13:29
RabidGravy loren, no
loren RabidGravy, the 295th line
lizmat perlawhirl: that would have to live in module space, and maybe it already does
perlawhirl: as that isn't really portable between e.g. Win and Unix 13:30
RabidGravy perlawhirl, the mode is available via nqp, I think I have use it somewhere 13:31
perlawhirl hmm.. the file test operators look to be calling nqp::stat
i haven't used any nqp yet, so if you have an example of it in use that would help... otherwise i will plod along until i figure it out 13:32
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loren RabidGravy, that file is a input pinyin table 13:32
lizmat I'm not sure using nqp::stat will give you more than what is already exposed in P6
loren input method
RabidGravy lizmat, yeah there is a mode define that isn't exposed, 'ang on I'll find it 13:33
perlawhirl RabidGravy: ta 13:34
masak perlawhirl: you're not on a cruise to Alaska, are you? :) 13:36
perlawhirl erm... nope... I'm staying in Australia 13:37
RabidGravy perlawhirl: 13:39
m: use nqp; say nqp::stat($*PROGRAM.Str, nqp::const::STAT_PLATFORM_MODE);
camelia rakudo-moar 564f0d: OUTPUT«33188␤»
RabidGravy picking the bits out of the returned number is left as an exercise to the reader
perlawhirl yup! 13:40
no prob . that works a treat
lizmat RabidGravy: so what is that ?
perlawhirl i believe i just convert to octal and good to go
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RabidGravy you may need to mask off some of the bits to the left but yeah 13:40
lizmat refers from exposing that in P6 :-) 13:41
masak perlawhirl: I hear in Australia, the Perl whirls spin the opposite way :P
perlawhirl yup, works a treat... using arbitrary base converter i also wrote in perl6...
33188 in Base-8 is 100644
RabidGravy lizmat, the same as whatever you'd get back from the C stat in the mode member
lizmat m: say 33188.base(8) 13:42
camelia rakudo-moar 564f0d: OUTPUT«100644␤»
perlawhirl masak: Hah! though i believe that was debunked
lizmat perlawhirl: converter built into the language :-)
perlawhirl coreralis... or whatever it's called
hoelzro o/ #perl6
lizmat hoelzro o/
RabidGravy lizmat, I suggested exposing it a while back but people were concerned about cross platform matters
hoelzro o/ lizmat
perlawhirl lizmat: converting to base 60 isn't :D
lizmat ah, no 13:43
DrForr Coriolis force is much weaker than even air currents at the scale of the toilet bowl :)
masak perlawhirl: yes, it's not actually true :)
perlawhirl as far as stat and cross-platform woes... it could live in a ::Unix namespace
masak perlawhirl: you need big things like tyfoons and stuff for it to be feasible
typhoons*
hoelzro does anyone here know what name Sterling Hanenkamp goes by here? I have some insights into his abort() issue 13:44
lizmat hoelzro: zostay ? 13:45
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perlawhirl masak: i don't think we get many typhoons down this way. just friendly spiders 13:46
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dalek rl6-roast-data: 36915bc | coke++ | / (6 files):
today (automated commit)
 13:51
masak perlawhirl: :) 13:52
hoelzro lizmat: logs seem to agree, thanks!
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masak perlawhirl: what's your impression on Perl 6 so far? anything missing or undocumented? any snags you've hit? 13:52
perlawhirl: "we value your feedback!" :D 13:53
hoelzro .tell zostay could you ping me when you have a chance? I have ideas about your abort() woes
yoleaux hoelzro: I'll pass your message to zostay.
dalek c/MARTIMM-patch-4: f249036 | (Marcel Timmerman)++ | doc/Type/Str.pod:
Add method info to trans

Added trans method declarations and changed typo. Also added new-lines for readability in source.
perlawhirl ummmmmm... just playing around. i pop my head in here every so often when i get stuck 13:54
i'd like better examples in the docs, and hope to write some myself... cloned the docs repo just today actually
RabidGravy I'm actually surprised that the mode thing hasn't been done in the ecosystem 13:55
perlawhirl but that was selfishly for my own purposes... the long train commute without internet. but gives me a reason to maybe contribute
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perlawhirl yes... the mode thing i think should be exposed. golang is also very careful about cross-os compat (ie, can't natively look up group names) but it still has a low-level stat exposed 13:56
moritz we all love good examples
dalek kudo/nom: 4662be6 | lizmat++ | src/core/Rakudo/Internals.pm:
Add an internal KEY_SPACE_VALUE method
kudo/nom: 988a783 | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationRepository.pm:
Use new KEY_SPACE_VALUE primitive

Using .words for this is bad for performance in 2 ways: it creates an iterator for generating the words (when we know there's only 2), and it uses another iterator to assign to the two variables.
Shaves off another few milliseconds from loading e.g. Text::CSV
perlawhirl for the record... go is in general pretty horible to use compared to perls. but when i need something compilable, it's easier for me than c
i am not a real programmer... i'm a network admin that likes to automate stuff... mostly perl5 13:57
masak perlawhirl++
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masak perlawhirl: what would make Perl 6 more attractive to you as a network admin? 13:57
RabidGravy if you right software then you're a real programmer
er write
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llfourn RabidGravy: spelling is not necessery for a real programmar dw 13:58
perlawhirl Rabid: yes i know you're right... but a lot of stuff flies way over my head sometimes.
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perlawhirl masak: i really need a telnet and ssh module... right now using Net::Telnet (and IO::Pty with the telnet module) to do SSH, (because it means i can use the same methods for either protocol) 13:59
RabidGravy llfourn, I think my fingers go faster than my brain sometimes
llfourn RabidGravy: at least something goes fast :)
perlawhirl i am thinking of rewriting my script using inline::perl5
RabidGravy I thought someone had made an SSH module, but I haven't looked 14:00
perlawhirl i'm waiting for performance improvements... but that wont stop me writing in perl6 so when things get faster i can hit the ground running
lizmat nine: have you considered using epoch values everywhere instead of Instants? 14:01
I mean, are we worried about an extra compilation when in a leap-second ?
llfourn lizmat: what what if I make a change and try and re-run in less than a second? 14:02
lizmat well, that's already an issue
llfourn oh.
lizmat because the OS's only supply modified info with second granularity
loren Everyone want high performance ... but stable is important than performance 14:03
lizmat it's only that on a leap-second (which we may not be getting in the foreseeable future anyway)
llfourn: that window would be two seconds
llfourn lizmat: why? 14:04
lizmat because during a leap-second, epoch doesn't advance
llfourn oh right leap seconds yeah...
lizmat so epoch stays the same for 2 seconds, rather than 1
llfourn but why can't instant be more than 1 second accurate?
lizmat Instant *is*
llfourn oh you mean for file last modified gotcha
lizmat but the underlying OS doesn't provide that info 14:05
dalek c: f249036 | (Marcel Timmerman)++ | doc/Type/Str.pod:
Add method info to trans

Added trans method declarations and changed typo. Also added new-lines for readability in source.
perlawhirl loren: that's why i'm waiting, not asking :D
dalek c: e54be5a | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Type/Str.pod:
Merge pull request #325 from perl6/MARTIMM-patch-4

Add method info to trans (Closes #319)
lizmat so why using Instants when we're only getting epoch granularity anyway
perlawhirl can someone remind me how to iterate a Seq without consuming it
llfourn perlawhirl: you can .cache
but I have never needed to do this in practice
(or assign to an array ofc)
lizmat perlawhirl: yeah, it should probably never need to be done by users 14:06
nine lizmat: I just compare .modified as that appears to give me the mtime. Didn't think about anything else ;)
perlawhirl yep can assign to an array... i just forgot the method name
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lizmat so if you see that, please let us know how you did that 14:06
nine: ok
ilmari lizmat: some OSes do, e.g. linux has st_atim.tv_nsec
yoleaux 09:48Z <DrForr> ilmari: noted re: Readline, will unbreak.
ilmari in perl5 Time::HiRes can override stat() with a version that exposes that 14:08
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ilmari and OSX has st_[acm]timespec 14:09
loren perlawhirl, I often use Rakudo, in order to find more problem ...
RabidGravy so I'm thinking in the first instance an IO::Path::Mode that augments IO::Path with a mode() method that returns some object
lizmat ilmari: well, fwiw, that's currently not exposed in nqp::stat :-(
RabidGravy ilmari, yeah, linux supports a stuct timespec with nanoseconds there 14:10
ilmari lizmat: I may have to add that to moar/nqp then :)
lizmat ilmari: by all means :-)
ilmari RabidGravy: there are apparently at least 5 different ways of doing it, judging by the code in Time::HiRes
llfourn is there a short way of doing $_ !=== Any, I find myself doing it ALL the time 14:11
RabidGravy lawks
llfourn I want to know whether any *information* has been provided in the variable
hahainternet so if i have a list like (1,2,*) and i use it in a hyper operator, the last value will repeat ad nauseum as expected, but if i try to do for example say $l[^10] it doesn't account for the whatever star, can i do so manually or is it restricted to hyper stuff?
llfourn obviously given $var { when Any { } } doesn't do what I want
nine Btw. I think the way to go about cross platform compat in a language is to provide abstractions wherever possible but expose native APIs when not. Because it should always be up to the user to decide if the code needs to be platform independent. 14:12
Juerd llfourn: (Any) is information too
ilmari RabidGravy: metacpan.org/source/RJBS/Time-HiRe...s#L735-759
llfourn Juerd: explain that to me :)
lizmat llfourn: .DEFINITE ? 14:13
Juerd llfourn: Well, just like (Str) indicates that it is an undefined string, (Any) indicates that it is undefined but it could have been anything.
llfourn: Can you explain your use case? I don't understand why Any is different than, say, Str.
llfourn Juerd: right but in the normal swing of things Any is the *most* undefined thing
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Juerd No, Mu is the Most Undefined :) 14:14
ilmari RabidGravy: libuv already supports st_atimespec and st_atim
llfourn Juerd: yes but you don't run into it
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Juerd This is true. 14:14
llfourn: But in which use case are Str and Int useful information, where Any isn't?
llfourn: My gut says you're doing something unperlish, but that's just a gut feeling 14:15
[Coke] Regarding 6.d - 6.d isn't official yet; anything that is using 6.d at this point is defacto experimental, no?
llfourn Juerd: Any is useful information... I think that's the point.. but almost everything ~~ Any is true
lizmat ilmari: well, since we already expose Instants, you could use the current interface already 14:16
llfourn Juerd: Any tells me that no definite information has been provided
Juerd llfourn: What I'm wondering about is if your use case is generic enough to warrant a language feature, or if it's specific to something you're doing but that few other people would try...
RabidGravy is this in the context of sub routine? In which case I'd be inclined to go for some multis
FROGGS [Coke]: v6.d will be official at the day it gets released...
llfourn Juerd: but if I want to see if that's the case ~~ Any doesn't work I have to do === Any
Juerd: ok I'll test of lizmat++'s suggestion of .DEFINITE and get back to you :) 14:17
Juerd If it's just you, you could just define a new operator.
lizmat llfourn: not sure what you wanted, though :-)
FROGGS [Coke]: and all changes we make now have a chance to go into v6.d, but not necessarily have to
Juerd llfourn: Please provide use case examples. I think I understand what you mean, but not how and why you'd use it.
arnsholt llfourn: Is what you're trying to do check whether an optional argument was passed or not? 14:18
Juerd m: sub postfix:<?> { $^thing !=== Any }; my Str $foo; my Any $bar; say $foo?, $bar?;
camelia rakudo-moar 988a78: OUTPUT«TrueFalse␤»
ilmari lizmat: but nqp::stat only returns ints, though, so we'd need a new op or stat(2) the file twice :(
RabidGravy :) 14:19
lizmat but we could make it return nums, no ?
ilmari: or do you fear breakage in nqp ?
llfourn this is what it is: Lets say I have a given/when, if I want to know if it's Any:U I can just do when Any { ... }. But if I want to know if it's *not* Any:U I have to do $_ !=== Any
when Any:U that is 14:20
the latter seems harder than it should be
and i find myself doing it a lot
I would like to make a Type that is the negation of antoher type essentially 14:21
lizmat nine: any reason why that line is there? github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...ry.pm#L126
[Coke] Maybe we can make it explicitly experimental.
lizmat nine: seems it can be removed
moritz
.oO( unwhen Any { ... } )
ilmari lizmat: that'll break e.g. the size of files over 2**53 bytes
llfourn moritz: exactly :)
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[Coke] "use v6.d :experimental" vs. "use v6.d" 14:22
RabidGravy llfourn, then maybe a subset
lizmat ilmari: only return nums on modified / created / etc ?
TimToady when none(Any) { ... }
loren Night ..everyone, BTW, If someone understand and interested in regex match problem, can look at this . *link* -> www.oschina.net/code/snippet_2531803_53446
llfourn RabidGravy: right what I am looking for is a way to auto create a quick negated subset
ilmari lizmat: can a single nqp op return different types depending on arguments? 14:23
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FROGGS [Coke]: both statements do not make sense today 14:23
arnsholt TimToady to the rescue, as usual! =)
lizmat ilmari: good question, probably not :-(
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llfourn m: when none(Any) { "win".say }; 14:23
camelia ( no output )
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moritz IME, introducing a second op is easier 14:23
nine lizmat: it's used in github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...ry.pm#L130
lizmat moritz ilmari : yeah, probably :-)
ilmari we'd need a new l?stattime or similar
that returns num
llfourn m: $_ = "str"; when none(Any) { "win".say } 14:24
camelia ( no output )
llfourn it seems that doesn't work..
RabidGravy m: subset NotAnAny of Any where * ~~ none(Any); my NotAnAny $f = Str; my NotAnAny $g = Any
camelia rakudo-moar 988a78: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $f; expected NotAnAny but got Str␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/xeRX6v1coG line 1␤␤»
FROGGS ilmari: l?stat_n ?
llfourn none(Any:U)?
lizmat nine: yeah, but its already set at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...ory.pm#L84
RabidGravy or something like that
nine [Coke]: jnthn's suggestion was use v6.d.PREVIEW;
ilmari FROGGS: possibly, but it only makes sense for the time fields
llfourn m: $_ = "str"; when none(Any:U) { "win".say }
camelia rakudo-moar 988a78: OUTPUT«win␤»
llfourn m: when none(Any:U) { "win".say }
camelia ( no output )
nine lizmat: true! It can go :)
ilmari nqp::const::STAT_*TIME 14:25
llfourn there!
lizmat oki
FROGGS ilmari: k, just wanted to mention our '_n' naming convention
llfourn TimToady++
nine lizmat++ # cleaning up my mess
14:25 yibing joined
moritz or maybe teach the existing op to return one more field 14:25
and if that's added at the end, there's no problem
14:26 pjscott joined
ilmari moritz: the existing one just returns an int 14:26
14:26 yibing left
ilmari if you want more than one stat field, you need to stat multiple times :( 14:26
14:26 sun joined
lizmat nine: it's not a mess! it needs peer review, which I sadly wasn't able to give until now 14:26
14:26 sftf joined
moritz ilmari: you can retrieve a float from the OS, truncated it to an integer, ship it in the int field, and additionally untruncated in the new float field 14:27
RabidGravy yeah, I was wondering if there was scope to make a new op that returns a structure with all of them
ilmari whereas perl5 has the opposite problem, getting all the fields for stat requires multiple (slow) system calls on windows
14:28 sun left
TimToady
.oO(it needs someone peering at it)
 14:28
Zoffix I'm writing a module that lets you skip all tests in a test file based on env vars (taken from Lancaster Concensus as well as a couple more), installed modules, or installed C libs. If anyone wants to give feedback on my plan, especially the 'Method of Use' section, please do so :) github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Test-I...ICATION.md
dalek kudo/nom: a2195ea | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationRepository.pm:
Reduce number of $*PERL.compiler.id lookups
 14:30
FROGGS Zoffix: OFFLINE_TESTING should be called ONLINE_TESTING or so, no?
ilmari moritz: maybe I don't understand now nqp ops work well enough, but won't that break compatibility if I change it from returning an int to a list of (int, num)?
FROGGS Zoffix: or I dont understand its use 14:31
Zoffix FROGGS, I figure there is a far larger subset of people who *do* want to run network tests, thus, they'll be run by default, unless the user (or its installation client) specifically specifies that network is not available
FROGGS Zoffix: and did you think about the name 'Test::When' ?
Zoffix FROGGS++ Test::When is a far better name 14:32
I'll change it
lizmat nine: is there a reason why you make .IO objects inside the spurt ? github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...ry.pm#L137 14:33
nine Zoffix: are you sure about people wanting to run network tests? I generally avoid it as much as possible when installing foreign modules but would want to run them while developing
lizmat: probably just ignorance 14:34
FROGGS Zoffix: abuot offline/online: say I state "use Test::When <online>" in my tests, and you run them with OFFLINE_TESTING, shouldnt the tests be skipped?
moritz ilmari: iirc nqp::stat returns an array
lizmat nine: ok, so the path is already an absiolute path, right ?
ilmari moritz: no
moritz ilmari: then my information is outdated, and I should stop talking about it :-)
Zoffix FROGGS, yes, if you set OFFLINE_TESTING those will be skipped 14:35
ilmari moritz: github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/d...kdown#stat
FROGGS Zoffix: then the description of OFFLINE_TESTING is wrong
ilmari «Given a path and a code, return an int describing that path using the OS's stat() function.»
Zoffix FROGGS, is it? "if true, tests are being run in an environment with a restricted or unavailable network" 14:36
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Zoffix FROGGS, thus, the tests with use Test::When <network>; are skipped, because the env var said network is unavailable 14:36
FROGGS Zoffix: okay, seems we have a different understanding of English :o) 14:37
Zoffix :|
nine lizmat: yes, it's absolute because it's based on the repository's $.prefix which is absolutified by repository-for-spec
FROGGS OFFLINE_TESTING does not make tests run, it potentially makes tests skipped
lizmat nine: cool, :-)
FROGGS so I think it is weird to state that it makes tests run under some circumstances 14:38
Zoffix: and btw, that OFFLINE_TESTING is currently the only env var that skips tests
Zoffix FROGGS, I see the confusion, s/tests/test suite/;
FROGGS that might be okay, just wanna mention it
ahh 14:39
Zoffix FROGGS, NONINTERACTIVE_TESTING skips <interactive> tests.
lichtkind_ FROGGS, your patiente was for a good cause istarted to actually write code :)
FROGGS Zoffix: so you explain where OFFLINE_TISTING might be useful without explaining what OFFLINE_TESTING does
Zoffix nine, I created a poll on twitter. Gonna see what the results are and then make the changes accordingly twitter.com/zoffix/status/685108122227113984
FROGGS lichtkind_: nice :o)
14:40 perlawhirl left
Zoffix FROGGS, it's explained in the Method of Use section: github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Test-I...-variables 14:40
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Zoffix Or at least, explained as much as NONINTERACTIVE_TESTING is ^_^ 14:40
lichtkind_ FROGGS, which leads me to the question why in modules.perl6.org/ Math::Matrix has no status even it has a travis.yml? 14:41
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FROGGS Zoffix: btw, it is not uncommon that a module wants to have one lib out of a set... how do you want to solve that? 14:42
Zoffix lichtkind_, it's not no status, it's "not setup". Along with .travis.yml, the author needs to enable it on travis-ci.org/profile/USERNAME
FROGGS Zoffix: yes, have spotted it a minute ago
lichtkind_: I believe the author has to enable travis on the travis-ci.org page
RabidGravy lichtkind_, it want run the tests until the first commit after the travis is enabled and there is a .travis.yml present 14:43
won't
Zoffix FROGGS, hm, how about :module()/:lib() can take junctions too. So it'll be: :lib('sqlite3', any(<foo bar ber>) )
lichtkind_ thing is we already run tests when i make pull requests
Zoffix Though I don't yet know how to use junctions :D 14:44
FROGGS Zoffix: +1
14:44 sjoshi joined 14:45 loren left
FROGGS so :libs<sqlite3 someotherlib> is equivalent to :libs(:all(<sqlite3 someotherlib>)), which is nice 14:45
Zoffix: and also important: headers
and tools or so
nine Zoffix: can you vote "Only when asked" for me? The poll seems to require an account on that website.
14:46 schnuppi joined
timotimo o/ 14:46
yoleaux 08:05Z <lizmat> timotimo: I've removed IO::ArgFiles and its only test (WHICH.t) if you think we should have a deprecation cycle, I could do that
Zoffix nine, sure
timotimo lizmat: i wouldn't have wanted a deprecation cycle. however, it seems like my tests were outdated or something 14:47
Zoffix FROGGS, noted.
nine So far 0 feedback on github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/92...e43d3765da 14:48
lizmat nine: I'm getting into the code, I hope to be able to do in a little while :-)
FROGGS Zoffix: hmmm 14:49
14:50 xpen left, aenaxi left
FROGGS Zoffix: now I'm thinking that parts of it should be in union with LibraryCheck or so 14:50
[Coke] I'm fine with .PREVIEW
timotimo i have a tiny patch that prevents an allocation of two exceptions, a Backtrace and a Failure every time .gist is called
FROGGS Zoffix: because my dist will surely depends on testneeded C libs, headers or tools
depend*
lizmat timotimo: cool!
timotimo lizmat: i was spec testing it when the which.t failure surprised me 14:51
Zoffix FROGGS, oh right. I *knew* there was some module for library checking and I searched for Test:: but didn't find anything
timotimo and then somehow i stopped working on it completely :|
FROGGS nine: that's like the old candidates method?
nine FROGGS: a lot like that, yes.
Zoffix FROGGS, yeah, I most likely will use that module under the hood
RabidGravy Zoffix, I didn't call it Test::LibraryCheck as I could see a use for it outside of tests :)
see also CheckSocket 14:52
FROGGS nine: does it get used by .load?
Zoffix cringes at the naming inconsistency :)
FROGGS *g* 14:53
RabidGravy I changed my ideas about the naming in between the two ;-p 14:54
timotimo noming inconsistency
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nine FROGGS: not directly. Both need and resolve use a common private method for finding a candidate. !matching-file vs. !matching-dist 14:54
RabidGravy If I worried too much about naming I would never do anything 14:55
Zoffix :D
dalek kudo/nom: 2a3fb6b | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationRepository.pm:
Don't use .IO or arrays when we don't need to
14:55 brrt left
Juerd llfourn: Your "use case" is still described in language features. What kind of data are you dealing with? Why is Any different from Str in your code flow? What is the given in your given/when, and what does this given/when altogether do? 14:56
nine FROGGS: the major difference between resolve and need is that need returns a CompUnit object with an initialized $.handle and dies if no matching candidate was found.
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FROGGS nine: ahh, I see 14:56
nine FROGGS: resolve returns Nil if nothing is found and a CompUnit object with empty $.handle
Juerd llfourn: If you find yourself doing this a lot, I'm sure you could also just share some code to clarify if explaining what it does is hard.
Excuse me, s/what it does/what it is used for/ 14:58
nine lizmat: you're fast tracking bitrot in the query_repos branch :)
lizmat nine: not sure that's a good thing ? 14:59
nine lizmat: it will prolong my rebasing session when query_repos is up for merge. On the other hand, your modifications _are_ good.
Juerd nine: Rebase often, rebase early :) 15:00
llfourn Juerd: You have ~~ right? when uses that. So do lots of things. But there is no version of when that uses !~~ and there is no way to have sub (Str:! $thing ) { } # an arg that isn't a string.
you have to do where { $_ !~~ Str) or when $_ !~~ Str { } etc 15:01
this is all I am talking about
the negation is a lot more messy 15:02
Juerd llfourn: You seem to be ignoring my question. I understand what you mean, just not why you need this. If you can't come up with a use case explanation or examples, that's okay, but then let's just stop.
llfourn Juerd: ok :)
nine llfourn: when would a sub accept literally _everything_ except for a Str? 15:03
RabidGravy is there a MONKEY-* that turns on all of "use nqp" and "MONKEY-TYPING' ?
nine RabidGravy: like a use MONKEY-ABANDON-ALL-HOPE-YE-WHO-ENTER-HERE;? 15:04
RabidGravy yeah 15:05
llfourn nine: I dunno. Just an example.
RabidGravy MONKEY-GONE-TO-HEAVEN alters what 6 is 15:06
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nine llfourn: that's exactly what Juerd was talking about. Examples for highly theoretical use cases make no good basis for language design :) 15:07
Juerd MONKEY-SEE-MONKEY-DO will evaluate all your expressions twice.
stmuk__ MONKEY-ISLAND-2 15:08
RabidGravy :)
dalek ast: bfd3eff | timotimo++ | S03-binding/nonsense.t:
test: can't bind to some things. type objects, ints, ...
 15:10
timotimo yeah, i had a local commit that "make spectest" refused to merge
RabidGravy for reference "use MONKEY;" does what I suggested, it probably kills kittens in the background but hey
timotimo ^- if those tests look sane, someone could add them to spectest.data
llfourn nine: well I don't consider conditional branches on the negations of things "Highly Theoretical" but I'll have a go :) 15:11
El_Che silly question: I have read here some stuff about precomp and people moving stuff from the script to a pm. Is the precomp stuff that much faster? 15:13
nine llfourn: well the signature example was highly theoretical. For given/when you have already given $foo { when Str { ... }; default { say "not a string!"; } } which is the same as given $foo { when $_ !~~ Str { ... } }; just clearer in my eyes 15:14
lizmat El_Che: compiling the settings takes about 60 seconds, loading it .1 second 15:15
that's about 600x faster
llfourn nine: I am working on an example. Just going through my code and finding the common thread :)
El_Che Ai caramba would and older version of Bart Simpsons say
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nine llfourn: now you're making me very curious :) Keeping up the suspense like that 15:16
timotimo "eat my shorts!" 15:17
Juerd bpetering: Thanks for helping out on rosettacode! I'll probably do C in a few days, and check another letter every few days.
lizmat Juerd++ 15:18
bpetering Juerd: no problem, I'll fix up the broken /^B/ ones in the next couple days
Juerd bpetering: I'm just testing and tagging. I fix them only if the fix is really easy (about half of the broken examples).
bpetering: I think it's great that you're also fixing stuff :) 15:19
timotimo wow, for the first time in a LONG time: All tests successful.
bpetering Juerd: I prefer to dive in a bit more, I've been away for a while and it helps me get up to speed quicker
Juerd timotimo: Let's celebrate! \o/ 15:20
bpetering Juerd: maybe just mention in the channel when you start on a new section, I backlog so I'll avoid overlapping with you
timotimo \o/ 15:21
Juerd bpetering: Will do
bpetering: Look for /rosetta/ :)
bpetering Juerd: will do, cheers mate :)
Juerd One thing that's present a lot, is "say LIST"
e.g. say map ...
That adds parens where it didn't use to before 15:22
dalek kudo/nom: 29fa675 | timotimo++ | src/core/Mu.pm:
gistseen doesn't have to allocate a Failure.

  Mouq++
Juerd If the list is always one item, "say item LIST" works. If not, "say ~ LIST" makes things pretty again.
lizmat timotimo: wouldn't that also apply to perlseen ? 15:23
timotimo ah, yeah
let me also put it there
Juerd But I'm really wondering if say should even have those parens there. IIRC, say was for communicating with humans, whereas dd was for debugging.
timotimo i meant to check for the whole core setting for this "pattern"
RabidGravy I wish our neighbours hadn't finished their kitchen, they keep bringing tasty Indian food round :) 15:24
Juerd say has become less useful for outputting stuff for human users
15:24 nige1 left
Juerd (Everyone knows programmers aren't human, right? :P) 15:24
lizmat timotimo: well, there's plenty... but generally, we want things to auto-initialize :-)
TimToady Juerd: I was mostly just changing the output to include the parens :) 15:25
timotimo right, that wants to go through DYNAMIC, right?
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TimToady lack of parens is not human friendly when you have nested lists 15:25
Juerd TimToady: I think that for single-element lists, not having the parens is the most dwimmy thing, as if "say item LIST" were used.
TimToady: The nested lists situation could perhaps be solved by only leaving out the outer parens. 15:26
TimToady it's just a different kind of consistency
15:26 atta left
bpetering .tell perlawhirl NativeCall bindings for libssh is on my TODO in the next month 15:27
yoleaux bpetering: I'll pass your message to perlawhirl.
Juerd TimToady: It's definitely consistent. Not complaining about that :)
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Juerd It just makes say slightly less useful for the use cases that I (and apparently several rosettacode example authors) run into, where apparently we like to just have a space separated list of things without delimiters. 15:28
TimToady and, in case you didn't notice, last year was the time to redesign the language, not this year :)
lizmat timotimo: yes 15:29
Juerd TimToady: I don't think that changing say's output is changing the language per se, but I do agree that keeping it steady for the sake of stability is probably a good idea.
TimToady anyway, I think a lot of the RC examples are not harmed by including the parens, having fixed a bunch of them last year already 15:30
so it's all tradeoffs...
dalek kudo/nom: ced637b | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationRepository.pm:
Only look up %*ENV once
 15:31
nine RabidGravy: I can imagine.....far worse fates
Juerd TimToady: A lot aren't, that's right.
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bpetering I haven't done enough to notice, I'll have an opinion after another 4 categories :) 15:32
TimToady and ~ is short for a reason too :) 15:33
RabidGravy nine, except for the getting huge from eating bhajis and samosa for snacks :)
autarch karl williams suggested to me that it might be good to announce Perl 6 on the unicode mailing list
lizmat autarch: what does that entail ? 15:34
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autarch sending an email, I think 15:34
www.unicode.org/consortium/distlist.html
dalek kudo/nom: 506473c | timotimo++ | src/core/Mu.pm:
make perlseen more efficient like gistseen
 15:35
bpetering TimToady: I suspect over the last 2 weeks of intense perl 6 say ~ is what I've been falling back on 15:39
(that's been my inclination not knowing any better)
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lizmat autarch: yeah, but that would be people subscribing, not perl6, right ? 15:40
autarch lizmat: I'm not following
15:40 larion left
TimToady bpetering: there's also put 15:40
lizmat autarch: "good to announce Perl 6 on the unicode mailing list"
so not just have someone subscribing, also writing something there about Perl 6, is what you mean? 15:41
autarch I'm saying it might be good to send an email about Perl 6 focusing on unicode to [email@hidden.address]
lizmat ok, then we're on the same page... :-)
autarch actually, I'm just passing on what Karl suggested, I have no strong opinion
bpetering m: my $a = 1,2; $a.put; 15:42
camelia rakudo-moar 29fa67: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/4ncecwqAXz:␤Useless use of constant integer 2 in sink context (lines 1, 1)␤1␤»
bpetering m: my $a = 1,2,3; $a.put;
camelia rakudo-moar 29fa67: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/xH_zL9hnrV:␤Useless use of constant integer 2 in sink context (lines 1, 1)␤Useless use of constant integer 3 in sink context (lines 1, 1)␤1␤»
TimToady item assignment is tighter than comma 15:43
dalek kudo/nom: 2fac939 | lizmat++ | src/core/Rakudo/Internals.pm:
Introduce Rakudo::Internals.LL_EXCEPTION

  '--ll-exception' if running with that, otherwise ''
bpetering ergh
braino much.
my @a = 1,2,3; @a.put;
m: my @a = 1,2,3; @a.put; 15:44
camelia rakudo-moar 29fa67: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
bpetering I should not be on IRC at 2am, this is disgraceful
TimToady: I like put more. thanks :)
m: my @a = 1; @a.put; 15:46
camelia rakudo-moar 29fa67: OUTPUT«1␤»
bpetering m: (1,1,2,3,5).put; 15:48
camelia rakudo-moar 29fa67: OUTPUT«1 1 2 3 5␤»
TimToady it's just a print with a newline, basically
and print uses .Str rather than .gist 15:49
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bpetering m: say ~(1,1,2,3,5); 15:50
camelia rakudo-moar 29fa67: OUTPUT«1 1 2 3 5␤»
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bpetering Having done a fair bit of python I think I have a slight preference for object.method syntax, I guess that's why 15:51
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llfourn Juerd, nine: gist.github.com/LLFourn/9e08d3a94b08af9d5c38 # it wasn't as easy as I expected to come up with a cogent example but check that 15:52
masak ooh, .put
llfourn but now I know none(Any:U) works I can't remember too well why I did this! 15:53
lizmat llfourn: maybe Any::U didn't work yet when you tried initially
moritz llfourn: typically one wants to check if something is defined or undefined
lizmat it's fairly recent work of FROGGS++
moritz ~~ !*.defined might also work there 15:54
Juerd llfourn: That's not a real world use case. 15:55
llfourn Juerd: oh ok.
Juerd llfourn: It's contrived. You said you ran into this "all the time", so it shouldn't be hard to just copy/paste one of those.
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TimToady I'd write that ~~ :!defined 15:55
llfourn Juerd: to be honest I am usually writing MOP introspecting stuff 15:56
TimToady introspection is usually a design smell
masak these pair short forms kind of double as "symbols" in Perl 6
llfourn so checking if something is or isn't exactly equal to Any is what I do a lot
timotimo *.defined.not? :)
masak TimToady: I think that's taking it too far. but just like all power tools, introspection should be confined to a small part somewhere.
llfourn this is in the context of descending $=pod and looking at the .WHEREFORE objects 15:57
TimToady "small part" eqv "not usually"
masak TimToady: I used introspection just yesterday, in a (successful) effort to eliminate a lot of boring repetition in code.
TimToady: my point is, I would only consider it a design smell if it was all over a code base
TimToady "all over" eqv "usually"
I said "usually" for a reason 15:58
timotimo use introspection to figure out if your usage of introspection is all right
masak I realize that you can define all kinds of stuff to be equal to each other in order to be right :P
llfourn introspecting the return values of subs is not a design smell if you are trying to create .md files to describe the subs :|
TimToady well, that's not usual :)
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awwaiid www.atdot.net/~ko1/activities/2015_...gi2015.pdf -- nice slides on precomp in ruby YARV land, experimental feature in ruby-2.3.0 15:59
llfourn TimToady: I don't use p6 to do usual things :P
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PerlJam
.oO( I don't usually, but when I do, it's a design smell )
 16:00
awwaiid I like the mst quote "Sufficiently encapsulated ugly is indistinguishable from beauty" 16:01
so like -- keep that meta in a box :)
perigrin masak: sometimes you need to write Durian code.
TimToady it's hard to encapsulate durian... 16:02
perigrin TimToady: when overripe the abstractions do tend to leak. 16:03
TimToady ate a durian candy once and smelled like Yellowstone for two days after 16:04
perigrin Mom went to KL for a business trip many moons ago. She said the guy who picked her up apologized for the smell, the week before he'd been transporting durian in his car. 16:05
It was still noticeable.
she did say it wasn't bad tasting though. 16:06
llfourn Juerd: I updated it with four real-world examples gist.github.com/LLFourn/9e08d3a94b08af9d5c38
Juerd: in the end it was four times so I guess that isn't "all the time" :P 16:07
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llfourn I tried to golf it down so that it would make sense 16:07
masak perigrin: durian tastes quite nice, yes
perigrin masak: my point being soemtimes the code may smell but leave the best taste in your mouth after :)
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masak many years ago, I compared Perl itself to the durian 16:10
weird-looking, often misunderstood, heart of gold
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lizmat this just in from FB: blog.builtinperl.com/post/happy-new...6-released 16:11
DrForr I should've mentioned that :) 16:12
lizmat
.oO( the internets are fast :-)
[Coke] gets notified that @nogoodnickleft tweeted something about postgres... and gets caught up in a p5/p6 thread, yikes. 16:14
ugexe nine: i mentioned to you before he threw his work out when it was clear what he was working on would no longer work with what had been merged in. Its most definitely not hot air, as I was running it on a slightly modified version of rakudo to load an external compunit before modules were loaded. Some people are ok with sending unfinished work in a PR, but he was not. I would not brush him off just because his 16:15
opinion conflicts with yours
PerlJam random weirdness: last night I was looking for a walmart near me, so I went to the maps app on my phone and started to search. As I typed "Wal", the top answer that popped up was "Larry Wall" (and what I would guess is his home address)
[Coke] if you have his address in your contacts, that might explain that 16:17
nine ugexe: opinions are never an issue. He thinks the current architecture sucks? Well, so do I. It's the trying to win an argument instead of having a discussion that rubs me the wrong way. And dismission data about Inline::Perl5's test suite because "there are very few people that care about how fast Inline::Perl5's test suite runs" is just that.
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nine ugexe: and "loading modules a little more quickly" when it's a factor of 600 faster. 16:18
ugexe nine: he had modules loading quicker by changing the manifest layout. that was the easy part 16:19
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nine ugexe: the manifest issue is on top of the factor 600 16:19
ugexe but he did have discussions about it. i think hes not interested in doing it again because its already there
PerlJam I'm not sure why I would have his address in my contacts, but it was a happy accident anyway :)
ugexe except its slower on a programs first run while modules are precompiled. this is not always acceptable 16:20
nine ugexe: Discussions in private are useless. Keeping code on one's own harddrive is useless.
16:20 bpetering left
ugexe im not talking about with me 16:20
with people here in #perl6, the lizmat gist, etc
nine What would help is concrete examples, suggestions and code that one can look at. And when asked about that it was "pull it out of thousands of lines of backlog yourself"
ugexe and it clearly wasnt on just his own hard drive, i just said i had ran it 16:21
nine Yeah, how many rakudo core developers had access?
ugexe i just told you he was not interested in sending an unfinished pr 16:22
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nine Apparently he was also not interested in letting people know that he had work in progress. I certainly would have found other interesting bits to work on if I had known that the precomp issue was already well in hand. 16:22
But I didn't know. So I started to act.
ugexe clearly 16:23
Skarsnik damn my backlog is too small
PerlJam Skarsnik: I was thinking just the same thing
nine It would just have taken a single message to stop me. I would have liked to have more time for Inline::Perl5 or even non-Perl6 things.
ugexe but as a "core developer" you're bound to be tortured by the users, not the other way around
mspo core developers inflict the most pain on users 16:24
☞ Think ahead. (You think that’s cute this year…)
ugexe torture the implementor on behalf of the user - one of the perl6 mottos 16:25
nine ugexe: what does that have to do with anything?
The motto is about not punting when things are really hard to implement but benefit the user. Not about making them do pointless extra work. 16:26
ugexe if you have to ask with the way you've been replying to a "user" i dont know what to tell you
you brought up "core developers" 16:27
nine "core developers" as someone who can actually integrate code into rakudo. If tony-o wants a commit bit and push his stuff directly, I'd be absolutely fine with it. He'd just have to ask.
Or you for what it's worth. 16:28
16:28 FROGGS left
nine But until you do, you'll have to let someone with a commit bit know that you want to get code into rakudo. 16:28
ugexe afaik he doesnt care about that
nine If he doesn't care about getting his code into rakudo, then what's the grief about contributions being rejected? 16:29
To this date I don't know what his issues with precompilation are. And I don't know what his alternative solution would be. So what does he want with me? 16:30
ugexe who cares, that doesn't mean throw out the rest of his opinions and points
nine What _are_ his points??
All he's said so far is "the current implementation sucks", "we've had another implementation a year ago" and "find other arguments somewhere in the backlog" 16:31
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Skarsnik Does precomp file is system wide? (or at least in the perl6 install?) 16:31
*are
nine And of course that precompilation in FileSystem repositories is useless because the speedup is not worth some unspecified problems which many people disagree with.
ugexe nope, that was one of his points he brought up literally yesterday
nine So because those files are not system wide, we better give up the whole thing? Because if not, I'd be very interested in his solutions. Because I don't have one. 16:32
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nine I don't _know_ how to make it work with system wide precomp files. If I knew I'd implement it today. 16:33
But neither he, nor you will tell me what the solution would be.
ugexe im not sure why you are even bringing me up 16:34
lizmat dinner&
Skarsnik Well for me it's a good point, they should be tied with p6 install, not on the user home
nine Because you said that you have discussed these issues with him for hours, so I assume that you would know at least a little about it.
Which is more than I do.
ugexe yes, but most of my knowledge was on the previous implementation and ive never stated anything otherwise. nor have i ever stated which problems i had solved or not 16:35
nine Skarsnik: yes, they should be. Definitely. We even tried it and failed spectacularily.
Skarsnik: it's a really, really hard problem.
Skarsnik But, yeah precomp is awesome. I have some script that depend on 5+ modules. they don't start up on 30-40 sec anymore
ugexe precomp itself is not new, it was only removed for a period of time 16:36
llfourn ugexe: it never worked on -Ilib stuff though right? 16:37
nine Yes because the old implementation was even worse than what we have now and none of the people working on it thought that it was the right way to do it.
llfourn that's what speeds up development..
mst uh
I don't think we're going anywhere useful with this
ugexe llfourn: right
mst tony-o just keeps screaming incoherently without content
nine is showing every sign of being burned out 16:38
ugexe seems to feel stuck in the middle
Zoffix is just eating popcorn
mst and other than those human observations, I'm basically lost technically
I think we need some sort of ... ugh, working group like thing
maybe a #perl6-comprepo channel or something that's just these discussions
Skarsnik #perl6-internal? 16:39
PerlJam or at least get it off #perl6
mst no
I don't want to be in a general compiler channel
the CUR stuff is like an entire specialism to itself
16:39 nige1 joined
mst that or we mint a #perl6-trollchain or something 16:39
Zoffix :D
hoelzro I wouldn't mind a list of grievances and proposed solutions in a document or something
Zoffix hoelzro, well volunteered!
hoelzro esp. since sometimes parts of the discussion are in the backlog, which is hard to get through
RabidGravy Wiki!
mst I think maybe we should mint an extra repo in the rakudo org and then abuse its issues and wiki 16:40
hoelzro .oO( what did I do?! )
Zoffix something in /mu would be good
mst basically, we need to get it separated and coherent discussion to happen
Zoffix hoelzro, start the document of grievances in /mu repo. An editable wiki so we can log what the issues are and what suggestions to fix them are, rather than having all that spread over the backlog
nine mst++ # moving this into a productive direction again
mst because right now we have people not feeling heard, people feeling out of the loop, people not sure exactly what's going on, and me, who's basically completely clueless except I can spot an argument that's gone horribly wrong pretty reliably ... when I'm on the outside
hoelzro Zoffix: the only issue with having it in mu is non-commit bit folk will have to submit PRs 16:41
Zoffix hoelzro, good point.
RabidGravy but you can separately permission a project wiki
Skarsnik I kinda wanted for Test/NC to have their own issue rather than lot on RT x)
PerlJam who *doesn't* have commit on mu? We can fix that very easy I think
stmuk__ I'm starting to wonder if we actually need a wiki and are outgrowing IRC 16:42
Skarsnik *lost
hoelzro Skarsnik: I hear you there
16:42 Actualeyes left
hoelzro stmuk__: for some things, definitely 16:42
stmuk__ either using a fixed November (dogfood) or is there a github one
16:42 lnrdo left
nine stmuk__: yes, this needs to be collected in a single place 16:42
hoelzro hell, a wiki with a "proposed branches" page would be nice, b/c a lot of people felt that curli was "snuck in"
well, proposed|active 16:43
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Skarsnik unrelated. will it be a good idea to have a page on the doc that list of modules that aim to make writing modules easier? But something neutral that does not talk about the quality of the modules/tools itself 16:44
Zoffix Skarsnik, yes 16:45
Skarsnik, I'm trying to find a lib to test my test module and so far I only see bitrot -_-
nine hoelzro: may I then paste this URL into the wiki page as answer for the "snuck in" accusation? irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-11-26#i_11603568
Zoffix Skarsnik, and I missed LibraryCheck module last night
RabidGravy if only there were tags specified for the meta files 16:46
hoelzro nine: I'm just saying for future branches of curli-scale
ex. if we had the wiki two months ago, you would have probably put curli on that page when you started it in October
Zoffix RabidGravy, if only those tags were searchable :P
hoelzro it would be *really* cool if the page were intelligent and could say how much the branches have diverged 16:47
nine hoelzro: definite +1 on that page anyway
RabidGravy but if you find a good test tester I'd be all ears, with Test::META I resorted to exposing the internal subs and testing those
hoelzro but, like many of my ideas, it's probably overkill =)
nine sounds like ;)
Zoffix Will do
stmuk__ what the hell does »+<« do? and how can I search the docs for it? :)
RabidGravy bit shift? 16:48
hoelzro hyper operator
RabidGravy m: say 1 +< 2;
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«4␤»
RabidGravy yep bit shift
stmuk__ ah doc.perl6.org/language/operators#infix_%2B%3C 16:49
RabidGravy and presumably 16:51
m: 4 +> 2;
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/YN4pUCFGbs:␤Useless use of "+>" in expression "4 +> 2" in sink context (line 1)␤»
RabidGravy m: say 4 +> 2;
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«1␤»
stmuk__ m: say (1,2,3) »+« (4,5)
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«Lists on either side of non-dwimmy hyperop of infix:<+> are not of the same length␤left: 3 elements, right: 2 elements␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/j1WZvXNwhD line 1␤␤»
stmuk__ is that doc'd at doc.perl6.org/language/operators#Hyper_Operators
"If one of the lists is shorter then the other, the operator will cycle over the shorter list until all elements of the longer list are processed."
the error suggests otherwise 16:52
RabidGravy oh, you really meant »+<« literally, I though the » and « were just being used as funky quotes
Zoffix m: say (1,2,3) «+» (4,5)
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«(5 7 7)␤»
Zoffix Weird. I thought the DWIMM was the other way around 16:53
RabidGravy "do what I might mean" ?
Zoffix :) 16:54
stmuk__ its a hyperoperator and a bit shift together I think
skids The point of the » points to the thing that gets "fanned out" to more entries.
Zoffix k
RabidGravy you kids should really lay off the crack
stmuk__ ah " The pointy part of « or » has to point to the shorter list."
16:54 zakharyas left
skids m: say (1,2,3) «+« (4,5) 16:54
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«(5 7)␤»
16:55 itaipu left
skids makes more visual sense with e.g. 1 <<+ 3,4,5 16:55
mst right, screw it 16:56
mst mints #perl6-toolchain
nine: please
ugexe: please
tony-o: please
flussence: please
tadzik: please
Zoffix: come be spare minion!
Zoffix Already there
mst jnthn: adult supervsion requested. in its absence, you'll do.
alpha123 sneaks in 16:57
stmuk__ skids: the pointy part in your example points to the longer list 16:58
I'm either misunderstanding the docs or they are wrong (or both) 16:59
mst right, so, who can give us a repo?
Zoffix mst, what does it need to be called?
mst I wanted one in rakudo org called rakudo-toolchain-discuss or something
RabidGravy mst++ # jfdi
Zoffix Ah. I don't got access to rakudo org 17:00
hoelzro PerlJam has access, iirc
mst I'd be ok with anywhere but I wanted to use github issues and wiki
Juerd mst: Rakudo or Perl 6? They're different organizations on Github.
hoelzro hmm, I have perl6 perms
mst Juerd: I was -thinking- rakudo for the moment, I'm not sure how much our internals will generalise and I'm definitely sure that's not the biggest problem we have yet
stmuk__ more people have perl6 access .. that might be a more pragmatic choice
mst I was planning to get perms to this new repo given out like water 17:01
since it's primarily a discussion space anyway
stmuk__ I think rakudo needs a posted signed agreement
mst right, then let's create it under perl6, with title toolchain-bikeshed
that should make the discursive, non-formal nature clear 17:02
Juerd Working on it :)
mst hopefully you can see what I'm trying to achieve in terms of presentation of this thing
while not being completely fragmented away from the mainline stuff
17:02 domidumont left
RabidGravy yeah I was just going to say a hellabunch o people have the commit on perl6 17:02
Zoffix doc.perl6.org/language/io is glaringly missing the STD[OUT|ERR|IN] operations :/ 17:03
Juerd github.com/perl6/toolchain-bikeshed
Next up: permissions
RabidGravy Juerd++ # jfdi
hoelzro Juerd++ mst++ 17:04
Juerd mst: Your github username?
mst shadowcat-mst
17:05 dwarring joined
Juerd Okay, have fun :) 17:05
mst does that give me the capacity to add other people? 17:06
Juerd If anyone disagrees with this move, open an issue on the repository :)
mst: As far as I know, yes.
PerlJam Juerd++ 17:08
PerlJam goes back to work
17:08 Peter_R left
mst Juerd: looks like it. ta. 17:08
17:09 Peter_R joined
Zoffix How do I re-open $*OUT after closing it? What I want to achieve is to temporarily redirect STDOUT/STDERR into variables and then reopen the filehandles back to normal 17:10
flussence shows up at exactly the right wrong time
mst flussence: WELL VOLUNTEERED
moritz Zoffix: you can achieve that with my $*OUT = open(...); in a new scope 17:11
ugexe my $oldout = $*OUT; $*OUT = class { ... }; $*OUT = $oldout ?
17:11 dakkar left
Zoffix moritz, thanks 17:11
RabidGravy I was just typing exactly that
Zoffix Thanks all :)
Juerd { temp $*OUT ... }
ugexe temp didnt work right on $*OUT when i tried that a long time ago. maybe it does now 17:12
Juerd Works fine
m: say "hi"; { temp $*OUT := $*ERR; say "hello"; }; say "bye"; 17:13
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/VYWAtUAR5L␤Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand side␤at /tmp/VYWAtUAR5L:1␤------> 3say "hi"; { temp $*OUT := $*ERR7⏏5; say "hello"; }; say "bye";␤»
Juerd Argh, not :=
m: say "hi"; { temp $*OUT = $*ERR; say "hello"; }; say "bye";
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«hi␤hello␤bye␤»
Juerd Oh, camelia doesn't differentiate between stdout and stderr.
You'll just have to take my word for it or try it locally then :) 17:14
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nine flussence: congrats on making it into lwn.net's quote of the week :) 17:15
flussence aw crap 17:16
Zoffix What's the quote? :)
flussence why is everything happening to me today /o\ 17:17
nine lwn.net/Articles/670378/
17:18 Peter_R left 17:19 Peter_R joined
hoelzro btw, is anyone planning on going to NLPW in April? 17:20
hoelzro assumes lizmat is
17:21 domidumont joined
dalek albot: 48f1121 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | freenode.org.conf:
Add #perl6-toolchain to Freenode channels to join
 17:25
17:25 camelia left 17:26 camelia joined
Juerd rosettacode.org/wiki/Call_an_object...hod#Perl_6 is a mess. 17:27
17:27 ChanServ sets mode: +v camelia
Juerd is going to remove all that and start over. 17:27
Zoffix Is it even possible to open() without a file, but a variable instead? Like Perl 5's open my $fh, '>', \ $foo; Where print $fh 'blah'; is basically equivalent to $foo .= 'blah'; 17:32
Reading the IO* Type docs and not seeing anything.
m: temp $*OUT = 42; say 42 17:33
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/hXKHjeiomu line 1␤␤»
Zoffix weird eh :)
RabidGravy Isn't there an IO::Stringy or something in the ecosystem?
Zoffix Ah, right 17:34
RabidGravy++
I'm really hesitant to use modules with docs like these -_- github.com/sergot/IO-Capture-Simple
C'mon people, this isn't node.js! :) 17:35
hoelzro++ # IO::String looks exactly like what I want
17:36 FROGGS joined
Skarsnik duh is there a better way to write $t.ref-type = %types{$t.ref-id} if %types{$t.ref-id}.defined; 17:36
ilmari why are the filetest tests split between S32-io/file-tests.t and S16-filehandles/filestat.t? 17:37
Hotkeys Skarsnik: I believe you can do $foo //= $bar 17:38
Zoffix Skarsnik, $t.ref-type = %types{$t.ref-id} // $.ref-type ?
s/'$.'/'$t.'/
ilmari the latter has time related tests, the former everything else
Hotkeys $t.ref-type //= %types{$t.ref-id}
Zoffix Don't think it's better, but shorter :)
Hotkeys should work I think 17:39
Zoffix Hotkeys, that's a different meaning
Skarsnik $foo //= $bar affect $foo if $foo is undef
Zoffix Hotkeys, that will assign if $t.ref-type is not defined, but the OP is if %types{$t.ref-id} is defined
Hotkeys oh
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Juerd Can we place bets on when indirect method syntax is dropped? My guess is 6.e ;) 17:45
FROGGS hehe
Hotkeys indirect method?
Juerd I don't recall having seen it in the wild.
FROGGS I would not use it either
Hotkeys What are those? 17:46
RabidGravy oh
perigrin Hotkeys: method $object instead of $object.method
RabidGravy m: class C { }; say new C
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/jYxt1nTQMs␤Unsupported use of C++ constructor syntax; in Perl 6 please use method call syntax␤at /tmp/jYxt1nTQMs:1␤------> 3class C { }; say new C7⏏5<EOL>␤»
Hotkeys oh
FROGGS no I think: method: $object
mst wait, of all the things to retain from perl5, you kept *that* :(
Hotkeys that's confusing though
yeah I'm alriht with that FROGGS
Juerd m: class Thing { method m($name) { say "Hi $name" } }; my $thing = new Thing:; m $thing: "#perl6";
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter ; (must be quoted to match literally)␤at /tmp/jhrg9Z424q:1␤------> 3 $thing = new Thing:; m $thing: "#perl6"7⏏5;␤Couldn't find terminator $ (corresponding $ was at line 1)␤at /tmp/jhrg9Z42…»
mst Hotkeys: yes that's why nobody writing perl5 uses it anymore because aaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Hotkeys but justhaving 'method $object' looks like a sub
FROGGS mst: exactly my feelings :o)
Hotkeys what if there is an overlap 17:47
what happens then
perigrin mst: nobody writing perl5 _intentionally_ uses it anymore
RabidGravy actually who was asking about the error messages before
mst Hotkeys: I refer you to: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
RabidGravy that is a pretty good example
Hotkeys lol perigrin
perigrin we _all_ get bit by it until we learn to use 'no indirect;'
Hotkeys is aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
a noise
mst that's why I tried to have Moo feed you 'no indirect' by default
Hotkeys screaming in anguish
Juerd "regex metacharacter"?
OH!
mst Hotkeys: it's the sound of mst hiding under the desk and screaming until the evil syntax goes away
Juerd Probably shouldn't call my method 'm'
perigrin Hotkeys: the noise he makes when he remembers what it was like before 'no indreict;'
Hotkeys ah
Juerd m: class Thing { method not-m($name) { say "Hi $name" } }; my $thing = new Thing:; not-m $thing: "#perl6";
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«Hi #perl6␤»
Hotkeys aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
RabidGravy ␤Unsupported use of C++ constructor syntax; in Perl 6 please use method call syntax␤ 17:48
Juerd RabidGravy: It needs a colon before the (empty) argument list.
RabidGravy I know
but I liked the error message :)
mst m: class Thing { method not-m($name) { say "Hi $name" } }; my $thing = new Thing:; $thing.not-m: "#perl6";
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«Hi #perl6␤»
nine Why on earth do we have this?
Hotkeys RabidGravy: I was asking about errors
mst ^^ that version seems fine
'not-m $thing:' ... aaaaaaaa
Juerd :)
RabidGravy HotKeys, there you are then :)
Juerd I like showing people new stuff they didn't know before. Even if it keeps them up at night, yelling and screaming :P 17:49
FROGGS nine: TimToady likes it I guess
Juerd But I'm sure that someone, somewhere, will love this syntax :)
I don't mind that it's there. 17:50
I don't think it'll be used much. And when it is used, it *will* impress whoever reads that code.
perigrin There are a few places where linguistically it helps ... but most programmers don't think like that anymore.
Hotkeys RabidGravy: pretty neat
will it impress them? 17:51
perigrin Juerd: the problem is how easy would it be to trip accidentally. That's the biggest pain in p5's indirect object notation.
Juerd rosettacode.org/wiki/Call_an_object...rl_6.7D.7D # Cleaned this up. Please proof-read.
Hotkeys or will it make them go aaaaaaaaaaaaa
Juerd perigrin: IIRC that's why the colon is necessary.
Hotkeys what about only moderately direct methods 17:52
perigrin Juerd: ... to stop things from leaking out the backside ... I see.
Hotkeys: tangential methods?
Hotkeys yes
perigrin I think you need to quote them or store the method object in the varaiable ... otherwise you're fine. 17:53
Hotkeys what if I'm annoying
and do .method with $object
m: .Rat with pi 17:54
ilmari $ ./perl6 -e '".".IO.modified.say'
Instant:1452188499.967552
camelia ( no output )
arnsholt perigrin: It's like prefix period to call methods on $_. It only *looks* implicit =)
Hotkeys m: .Rat.say with pi
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«3.141593␤»
ilmari m: ".".IO.modified.say
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«Instant:1452189285␤»
ilmari \o/
perigrin Hotkeys: then I would hope your code-reviewer smacks you on teh knuckles.
Hotkeys eheheh
.smack with $knuckles
RabidGravy though, somewhat related to indirect I do have callwith passing a new invocant somewhere in some code 17:55
perigrin .smack: $knuckles with $ruler
nine ilmari++
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nine ilmari: now if only Windows on FAT32 would give better than 2 seconds resolution ;) 17:56
Juerd m: class K { method smack { say "Like this?" } }; my $knuckles = K.new; 17:57
camelia ( no output )
Juerd Argh. Too early.
(Wacom tablet is borking. Pasting too much) 17:58
17:58 abraxxa left
Juerd m: class K { method smack { say "Ouch!" } }; sub infix:<with> { $^object.$^method }; my $knuckles = K.new; .smack with $knuckles; 17:58
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«Ouch!␤»
Juerd To be honest, I don't really understand how that works :) 17:59
RabidGravy return $foo but Bar; is my favourite thing of the say
day 18:00
perigrin m: class Ruler { method smack ($thing) { say "ouch: you hurt my $thing" } }; my $ruler = Ruler.new; .smack: "knuckles" with $ruler;
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«ouch: you hurt my knuckles␤»
ab6tract nine: fwiw, the overlay style makes a lot of sense to me
perigrin :)
Juerd Oh, there already is a 'with'?
masak Juerd: yes
Juerd Ha, that might explain why my code magically dwim.
ab6tract and it also seems to me that it will make comprehending language versions significantly easier
Juerd My infix with was never called :)
masak Juerd: it's like `if`, except (a) it checks for definedness, not truthiness, and (b) it topicalizes 18:01
perigrin Juerd: I'm as supprised as anyone that worked. Possibly because it's the first perl6 I've ever written.
ab6tract as the changes are forefronted
Juerd masak: Thanks for explaining :)
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Skarsnik I made something that took 12 sec, took 0.2 sec. I am happy x) 18:02
RabidGravy and we're happy you're happy 18:03
nine ab6tract: lizmat++ is right though. It will not be enough. For example when 6.c code uses a 6.d module and the latter creates some core object and passes it back to the 6.c code, this object will still have the 6.d API.
18:03 nige1 left
ab6tract it also seems to me like we should be able to write a script that would be able to generate a 'munged' directory? 18:03
ah, i hadn't thought of that. nice catch lizmat :D 18:04
[Coke] m: my $a = Str.new(:value<hi>); my $b = .new(:value<hi>) with Str; say $a; say $b;
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«hi␤(Any)␤»
Juerd [Coke]: Str is undef 18:05
[Coke] Str is still an object.
Skarsnik RabidGravy, gptrixie: Times -- gccxml: 0.24837610 sec; xml parsing: 2.9047862 sec; magic: 10.2859833
-> after changing stuff : Times -- gccxml: 0.2442622 sec; xml parsing: 2.80925026 sec; magic: 0.2820472
ab6tract maybe we could get away with .v6c , .v6d , coercers implemented on any augmented classes ?
[Coke] but yes, I assume that whether it's defined might impact the ability to 'with' it
Juerd [Coke]: I just learned that 'with' is a conditional, checking for definedness.
nine ab6tract: OTOH if the module uses 6.d because it's a newer version than was available when the 6.c user was written, the correct answer is to stick with the older (presumably 6.c) version of the module.
Skarsnik Oh a if $foo.defined and $foo eq 'foo' can be written: with $foo eq 'foo' ? 18:06
nine ab6tract: and if module using code was added when 6.d was already available, the using code should manage that.
ab6tract right. it's a bit DIWIDT 18:07
nine Still something we should keep in mind when changing core APIs. Some hurts can surely be avoided easily.
ab6tract nine: i think coercers might be a decent peg 18:10
and after you coerce down, that object is at the earlier version, full stop
flussence ooh, this is fun. The output of perl6 -v (and the pathname for precomp modules) depends on the `git-config core.abbrev` in effect when it was built
masak ab6tract: "Doctor, It When I Do This"? 18:11
ab6tract masak: i knew that looked off :)
nine ab6tract: certainly an intriguing idea. Especially since we have version support for classes. Probably the hardest part would be figuring out, when to actually coerce.
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ab6tract nine: good point. doing it cheaply might be a trick 18:12
yurivish_ quick bug: Perl docs for // go to doc.perl6.org/routine/%2F%2F, which is not found
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flussence yurivish_: yep, that's known about. ".." has a similar problem 18:13
Zoffix yurivish_, known issue
github.com/perl6/doc/issues/155
yurivish_ ah, good :) 18:14
mspo are the docs statically generated files or powered by something
flussence
.oO( we're going to need telegram encoding for texas variants )
Skarsnik generated 18:15
ab6tract the traditional thing with languages is more like you are stuck on an earlier version until you can upgrade
mspo so there's a file named ...html ?
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ab6tract s/upgrade/migrate your old crap/ 18:15
Skarsnik I don't think 6.c will be adopted comparing to the next major release x) It's just a feeling 18:16
ab6tract so the fact we potentially enable anything reasonable with that at all would be pretty cool
nine Skarsnik: when do you think the next major release will arrive?
zwu What is reason for that "List cannot be parameterized" , in m: my List of Int @a; I know the default @variable is to Array, which is a mutable and subclass of List.
How can I declare a list variable using @? instead of array? 18:17
Zoffix mspo, statically
Skarsnik nine, No idea. but in my head I prefer using a 1.1 version of something than the 1.0 that did not have previous beta widly tested
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mspo Zoffix: so there's a file named '..' ? 18:18
Zoffix lemme check
mspo when I say statically generated I mean a process is reading the docs and creating files
nine Skarsnik: there's a huge difference between the language version and the compiler version. I honestly do not recommend using rakudo 2015.12 due to curli issues. But 2016.01 will be much better already, while still being an implementation of Perl 6.c 18:19
And 6.d will probably arrive at the end of the year earliest.
18:19 sftf left
Juerd What is "curli"? 18:19
icelesstea The Finnish version of curl.
Skarsnik Yep, I am waiting for the next rakudo release to upgrade the install on my dedicated server x)
nine Juerd: the module management redesign that landed far too close to Christmas 18:20
Skarsnik I am more concerned by the modules used on my script on this system x)
nine The openSUSE packages I built are sort of an unofficial 2015.12.1, as 2015.12 was just not packageable.
mspo gist.github.com/jnthn/47a42b2e86e7e552b2e2
is curli I think
lizmat www.dagolden.com/index.php/2589/per...l-enemies/ # food for thought
nine mspo: yes
Zoffix mspo, "...html"
perigrin nine: I was sort of hoping it was a middleware messaging system ... curli-queue is just too good a name to pass up
Zoffix in /routines/
mspo Zoffix: okay! 18:21
Zoffix mspo, this actually works: doc.perl6.org/routine/...html
Juerd @rosettacode.grep(/^C/)[^20] done.
Zoffix But won't without the '.html' bit
mspo Zoffix: yeah
Juerd C is a huge catagory
mspo there's also a /.html or simiar, right?
Skarsnik ++ to people updating rosettacode
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Juerd Skarsnik: Not really updating much. I'm mostly checking whether examples still work. There's some pre-GLR stuff left on RC. 18:22
Skarsnik: And some need MONKEYs.
Skarsnik Well it's still some work ^^^
Juerd It is. Too much, actually :)
mspo Zoffix: so is powering the no .html rule? mod_rewrite or MultiViews ? 18:23
llfourn there is also 'without' that is with but checks for definedness
Juerd I've rewritten two articles today: "Call an object method" and "Check that file exists".
llfourn: undefinedness?
llfourn *undefinedness
Zoffix lizmat, I utterly disagree with this postulate. My knowledge of Perl 5 impeded progress with Perl 6 on more than one occasion. Especially the whole flattening business "First, a postulate: given the language similarities, the people that will find it easiest to learn Perl 6 are today's Perl 5 developers."
lizmat Zoffix: not saying I agree with the blog post, hence the "food for thought" 18:24
Zoffix mspo, "Options +Indexes +MultiViews"
mspo Zoffix: multiviews suck ;)
Juerd Zoffix: So far I've seen two people without any prior Perl experience pick up Perl 6 without much trouble.
Zoffix *shrug* :D
lizmat I think Dagolden, being a uni-language person (afaik), doesn't realize the destructive power of "false friends" 18:25
Juerd Zoffix: I think non-Perl people are a larger and more useful target audience :D
Zoffix Juerd, totally 18:26
Juerd lizmat: With a limited syntax, though, there will always be false friends in relation to *some* language. For example flattening, it's either a false friend to Perl 5 or to other languages, but neither design choice would actually solve the issue.
18:27 peter__ joined
El_Che I think learning perl6 is a lot easier when you know perl5 (in my experience) 18:27
Juerd The one-arg rule is a false friend to every other language, perhaps, but I find that I'm already getting used to it.
El_Che: Nobody can compare this because nobody will simultaneously know and not-know Perl 5 :)
Zoffix :D 18:28
El_Che Juerd: you understimate my quantum state :)
Zoffix eheh
Juerd El_Che: Yet at the same time, I don't :P
Zoffix I think that blog post has a lot of truth TBH.
Skarsnik m: my $foo; say "nop" with $foo eq 'a'; $foo = "a"; say $foo with $foo eq 'a';
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $foo of type Any in string context␤Any of .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can stringify undefined things, if needed. in block <unit> at /tmp/HkNsl2zayb line 1␤nop␤a␤»
PerlJam Zoffix: which parts? 18:29
El_Che let's say my perl5 is crappy enough to not count as enough perl5 and too good to count as not existent :)
lucasb m: say so Perl S& !Perl
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«True␤»
lucasb Juerd: ^^ :D
Zoffix PerlJam, the Scenario $n analysis with the option that both Perl 6 and Perl 5 grow rather improbable.
PerlJam Zoffix: yeah, I can agree with that one too 18:30
though ... C and C++ still happily co-exist after all these years :) 18:33
El_Che which is the C everyone love to love and the C++ everyones loves to hate? 18:34
El_Che ducks
zwu How can I declare a simple List variable instead of Array? Thanks! 18:35
my @v = 1,2,3 is to create array by default.
Skarsnik El_Che, so true
PerlJam zwu: my $list = ();
Juerd m: my List $foo = 1, 2, 3; say $foo; say $foo.WHAT;
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/_5FhZrIue5:␤Useless use of constant integer 2 in sink context (lines 1, 1)␤Useless use of constant integer 3 in sink context (lines 1, 1)␤Type check failed in assignment to $foo; expected List but got Int␤ in block <unit> at /tmp…»
lucasb zwu: my @a := (1,2,3)
Juerd m: my List $foo = (1, 2, 3); say $foo; say $foo.WHAT;
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«(1 2 3)␤(List)␤» 18:36
lizmat m: my List $foo = (1,2,3); dd $foo #zwu
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«List $foo = $(1, 2, 3)␤»
zwu I know this scalar form my $list = 1,2,3; 18:37
El_Che What I think is true is that devs putting down any of 5 or 6, will harm both languages
zwu didn't my @a := (1,2,3) is to create the binding only, since List is immutable, binding is fine.
El_Che Sharing more than almost the complete name, the association is big
Juerd zwu: *Why* do you want a List instead of an Array?
El_Che (and that is not a bad thing)
18:38 ab6tract left
zwu just try to understand the way of not being default, as the doc said the default of my @a is to declare the Array, I thought my can use coerce type like my List of Int @a to create immutable List. 18:39
18:40 peter__ left
Skarsnik m: my List of Int $a = 1..4; 18:40
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/hbxDSAzydz␤List cannot be parameterized␤at /tmp/hbxDSAzydz:1␤------> 3my List of Int7⏏5 $a = 1..4;␤»
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Skarsnik you can't type your list at all them x) 18:41
zwu Sakrsnik, m: my List of Int $a = 1..4; the output is List cannot be parameterized
PerlJam zwu: generally, if you want to make specific types like that, you'll want to use a scalar $thingy. Using @ and % have other implications about your type 18:42
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zwu PerlJam, so for a list, I can not use the @ sigil to the variable? 18:44
PerlJam zwu: if you bind it, sure.
zwu you are right, bind works. 18:45
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Zoffix Hm. Any idea how to have a filehandle that receives both $*OUT and $*ERR? 18:45
PerlJam "receives"?
Zoffix IO::Handle that is 18:46
MadcapJake when you run --gen-moar and --gen-nqp, where are those files placed inside the rakudo directory?
gfldex docs.perl6.org is stalled again: Generated on 2016-01-06T01:01:32.633373Z
can i see the build logs somewhere?
18:47 masukomi joined
Zoffix PerlJam, yeah, basically I have this code that captures $*OUT and $*ERR into separate variables. I want to have a third variable with both of those: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/468cde2b29e869b8c687 18:47
[Coke] gfldex: do have sudo on hack? (I do, checking now...)
gfldex [Coke]: i do not 18:48
Zoffix gfldex, doc.perl6.org/build-log/
18:48 xxpor_lap left
[Coke] btw, checking the logs doesn't help because there's a bug in the log script that wipes the log if there's overlap. 18:48
Zoffix: that only tells you about builds that worked. :)
Zoffix ah :) 18:49
[Coke] (or that failed in the past)
Juerd It seems /^A/ had much more brokenness than /^C/ on RC.
Zoffix "Method 'lc' not found for invocant of class 'Any' in block at ./htmlify.p6 line 432"
masukomi .ask brrt is it currently possible to create a stand-alone executable for *nix system ?
yoleaux masukomi: I'll pass your message to brrt.
[Coke] Zoffix: what did you invoke with?
Zoffix Oh god, did I break it
[Coke], that's from doc.perl6.org/build-log/build-2016-...0+0000.log
Is this the right way to create an index thing? github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d93052...9884d6cdfe 18:50
Juerd "This type cannot unbox to a native integer" is LTA. *Which* type?
Zoffix Maybe that's what breaks the build script 18:51
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[Coke] no, the last run says there's nothing to do. 18:51
Juerd rosettacode.org/wiki/Colour_pinstri...lay#Perl_6
Zoffix hm
[Coke] ... and the last commit is a merge commit... last time we had issues, it was when I cherry picked an old commit.
I think it's depending on not just sha1, but also timestamps at some point.
dalek c: d55cfb7 | coke++ | doc/Language/modules.pod:
remove trailing whitespace
 18:52
[Coke] let's see if that kickstarts it.
Skarsnik Juerd, use Color;? x) 18:53
18:54 iml_ left
Juerd Skarsnik: ? 18:54
Zoffix ?
dalek c: 331e65d | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod:
fix headings in Hash
c: 53e217f | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod:
Merge pull request #326 from gfldex/master

fix headings in Hash
18:54 yurivish joined
Juerd @rosettacode.grep(/^C/)[^30] done. Quitting for today. 18:55
Zoffix Juerd++
lizmat Juerd++
[Coke] a doc build is going...
... and it's immediately hit with another pull request. arglebargle.
Juerd Now to do some work for a client. In Perl 5. Head's going to hurt from switching.
[Coke] so this may die in five minutes again when the cronjob hits.
dalek kudo/nom: d979b5c | lizmat++ | src/core/Rakudo/Internals.pm:
Appears returning Empty is handier for run()
 18:57
kudo/nom: 07a021b | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationRepository.pm:
Lazily initialize $lle once per process
kudo/nom: c4fc775 | lizmat++ | src/core/Rakudo/Internals.pm:
Introduce Rakudo::Internals.PRECOMP-EXT/TARGET

So we don't have to create an expensive $*VM object just to find out something that is basically static for a build of the system.
kudo/nom: a84d4ed | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/ (3 files):
Use Rakudo::Internals.PRECOMP-EXT/TARGET
Juerd "taking the best from languages like Ruby, Go, Perl 6 and JavaScript" github.com/trizen/sidef/wiki 18:58
lizmat good to see Perl 6 being an inspiration :-)
Zoffix \o/ 18:59
Juerd It actually does look like a mix of those languages
[Coke] yup, looks like it died again.
mspo oftl: I don't think you generated a file named /.html 19:00
Zoffix: ^
Hotkeys er
where does panda get put with rakudobrew
I need to stick it on my path
mst Hotkeys: uhh
Hotkeys because it isn't there apparently
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mst Hotkeys: you added rakudobrew's bin dir to your PATH right? 19:00
mspo Zoffix: and .?.html is definitely problematic since '?' is the end of the url :)
Hotkeys yeah
mst Hotkeys: if you run 'rakduobrew build-panda' 19:01
Zoffix Hotkeys, panda is /home/zoffix/.rakudobrew/bin/panda
Hotkeys oh
mst Hotkeys: panda will turn up in the bin/ dir
Hotkeys I did without the space
zwu m: my $a='a'; my $b='b', $c='c'; # create list or array, my $list = ($a, $b, $c), $list[0] = 0; say $a; my @arr = $a, $b, $c; @arr[0] = 1; say $a; the $list[0] seems share the content with $a, , the $arr seems it copied the content from $a, managing it's own content.
camelia rakudo-moar 2fac93: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/KPPeNlaj2x␤Variable '$c' is not declared␤at /tmp/KPPeNlaj2x:1␤------> 3my $a='a'; my $b='b', 7⏏5$c='c'; # create list or array, my $lis␤»
Hotkeys er
with the spae
insteadof hyphen
oh oops my rakudobrew was out of date 19:02
Zoffix mspo, right, the generation script needs to do-something-smarter(); 19:03
mspo, I'd even say: we need to have a dynamic app instead of some build thing :)
19:03 nige1 left
Hotkeys should i panda install Readline or Linenoise? 19:04
is one better than the other?
p6 repl is telling me I should get one of them
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dalek c: 838a43d | coke++ | doc/Language/control.pod:
remove trailing whitespace
 19:05
[Coke] tries again.
19:06 masukomi left
zwu updated to show the list and array difference (looks like list is sharing the data, and array is copying the data) in this code m: my $a = 'a'; my $b='b'; my $list = ($a, $b); $list[0] = 'list'; say $a; my $arr = $a, $b; $arr[0] = 'array'; say $a; 19:06
hoelzro Hotkeys: Readline supports more standard keybindings, but Linenoise has tab completion 19:07
Readline also *may* be broken
but I DrForr++ fixed it
19:08 mohae joined
RabidGravy I thought readline did tab completion too, or just not implemented 19:08
hoelzro RabidGravy: just NYI
because we need to figure out how to get a Perl 6 module to be able to assign a Perl 6 code object to a C function pointer via NC 19:09
zwu do we have a doc about passing value or reference (container?) in list or array creation?
gfldex zwu: the best we have is doc.perl6.org/language/containers 19:10
Zoffix Solved my "have a thing contain both $*OUT and $*ERR" with this: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/8f9675bc3fb3cf8ef0c7
zwu gfldex: thanks! 19:11
RabidGravy we so need to get an arrays and list page going, unless someone else jumps in I'll start something tomorrow when I've finished this module
gfldex is there something like Metamodel::ClassHOW for subs? 19:13
RabidGravy well, the thing itself is an object
m: sub foo() {}; say &foo.WHAT 19:14
camelia rakudo-moar a84d4e: OUTPUT«(Sub)␤»
RabidGravy m: sub foo() {}; say &foo.HOW
camelia rakudo-moar a84d4e: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW.new␤»
gfldex i would like to declare a new declarator (and tie it to a trait)
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dalek kudo/nom: 25481dd | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/ (3 files):
Some micro-opts
 19:14
RabidGravy explain "new declarator" ? :)
gfldex see github.com/jnthn/oo-monitors/blob/...ors.pm#L90 19:15
PerlJam RabidGravy: instead of "sub foo", he wants "something-else foo"
RabidGravy ah no, it's only sufficiently class like things that you can do that with 19:16
skids RabidGravy: I'll help doc lists/array, if I start something before you do I'll yoleaux you
RabidGravy skids++
flussence Bailador cheats by making foo a normal string, and something-else a sub defined elsewhere
19:17 masukomi joined 19:19 P6Test joined
gfldex please don't say "macro is the answer". I'm happy to see my head not spinning wildly atm. 19:19
PerlJam gfldex: macro will be *an* answer at some point in the future ;) 19:20
tadzik mst: eyy, thanks! 19:21
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skids gfldex: I believe the corresponding code in oo-Actors mixes a role into the resulting actor, which -- is what traits do? 19:22
ChoHag Can I mock a subclass with Test::Class?
Also З Різдвом.
... with Test::Mock?
19:23 masukomi left
Zoffix wishes this was configurable: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...t.pm6#L520 19:24
ChoHag Wow. proclaim is a deceptively large function. 19:25
RabidGravy gfldex, I think the src/Perl6/Metamodel/EXPORTHOW.nqp gives all the things that can be superceded with EXPORTHOW::SUPERCEDE, the things with -attr can also be thinged with foo-attr in DECLARE
lizmat Zoffix: how ? 19:26
ChoHag Having briefly scanned Test.pm6 I assumed it was a glorified 'say'.
Zoffix lizmat, dynamic vars?
lizmat well, possibly, but what do you want to configure? 19:27
Zoffix lizmat, basically, I have a Test module that uses Test.pm6, but I want the file/line reference the file/line of where the user of my module is using the test. Right now I'm getting: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/7b5b40899b9f1edda5b7
ChoHag m: my $foo = class Foo { }; class Bar is Foo { }
camelia ( no output )
lizmat ah yes, if you have a patch, I'll gladly accept it (probably :-)
Zoffix It references /home/zoffix/Desktop/CPANPRC/perl6-Test-Output/lib/Test/Output.pm6:31, but the actual test is on /home/zoffix/Desktop/CPANPRC/perl6-Test-Output/t/01-stdout.t:28
ChoHag m: my $foo = class Foo { }; class Bar is $foo { } 19:28
camelia rakudo-moar a84d4e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/hH_Pv0_Stt␤Invalid name␤at /tmp/hH_Pv0_Stt:1␤------> 3my $foo = class Foo { }; class Bar is7⏏5 $foo { }␤»
ChoHag That one. Why does that one not work. Is is a compile-time only directive? How do I make it otherwise?
19:28 domidumont left
dalek kudo/nom: ed6ec7a | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/RepositoryRegistry.pm:
Remove something that doesn't work anymore
 19:29
RabidGravy m: constant Batty = class Foo { }; class Bar is Batty { }
camelia ( no output )
19:29 Gruber joined
El_Che Today, the fosdem mails to the speakers are going out. People here planning on attending 19:30
perl5 and perl6 allaround :)
19:30 [particle]1 joined
ChoHag That's fine, but $foo is not Foo but mocked(Foo), using Test::Mock. 19:31
tadzik I'm surprised to see the "Perl 6 is killing Perl 5" still going strong :|
19:31 mattp__ joined, advwp left
lizmat tadzik: did you actually read xdg's blog post ? 19:32
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ChoHag tadzik: Well perl 5 should try adapting to modern development methodologies. 19:32
Oh it did, and they called it perl 6...
lizmat tadzik: I think the post is rather more refined than that
El_Che tadzik: why? I haven't that many negative posts
tadzik lizmat: no, I only saw the twitter
El_Che haven't seen
lucasb ChoHag: I think declarative you can't create a class like that, but maybe programmatically (using the MOP) you can. (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
tadzik twitter.com/OvidPerl/status/685009540979412992 this convo 19:33
RabidGravy yes you can
lizmat www.dagolden.com/index.php/2589/per...l-enemies/ # tadzik: then I suggest you actually read it :-)
tadzik thanks, will do :)
ChoHag Bollocks.
tadzik I didn't know there is one :)
ChoHag Perl 5 and perl 6 are mortal enemies in the same way the Welsh and the Scottish are mortal enemies.
ie. They are until the English show up.
mspo Zoffix: even getting all of those characters seen is going to be tough
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lucasb RabidGravy: do you mean something like 'class C is generate-some-class() {}' ? 19:33
19:33 chewie_2082 joined
ChoHag But please ignore me. I'm enjoying my second round of Christmas Spirits, and they're a lot of fun. 19:35
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mspo Zoffix: I have a solution for .*, though ;) 19:35
tadzik lizmat: alright, I see more now. His twitter tweets made it seem like he's negative about the whole thing
perigrin ChoHag: I'm going to assume that Perl5 are the scottish in this analogy because they're enemies with _everyone_ until the English show up.
lizmat tadzik: worried would be a better description, I think
ChoHag Sounds about right.
mst and then the english paid the scots to fight the other scots 19:36
El_Che tadzik: his twitter remarks are indeed very different than his post
ChoHag Let's not talk about what happens when the French get involved.
mspo Zoffix: .. is weird because I can't tell if the browser is changing the paths or what
El_Che tadzik: probably his post was after he calmed down
19:36 ilbelkyr_ joined
tadzik possibly 19:36
ChoHag lucasb: Using the MOP is too much for now.
mspo Zoffix: www.gothamunion.com/foo/.*
flussence mspo: I think .. gets special treatment on *both* sides... 19:37
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mspo flussence: yeah it's nasty 19:37
ChoHag So curse you. I finally got my child to give me some coding space and then you go and tell me what I want to do can't be done (in my current mental state).
El_Che will try to by a police baton before FOSDEM. If perl 5 and 6 devs don't get along, they get the stick
perigrin ChoHag: one of my favorite days in Scotland was walking to the office when the 6 Nations final was playing in town. The English vs the French. If the English won then Scotland had enough points to take the cup. If the French won then ... well the English lost and that was reason enough to celebrate. 19:38
19:38 vike1 joined
perigrin They turned up in _droves_ 19:38
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flussence mspo: yep, just tested it on one of my own servers via curl. It interprets it specially up to $document_root. 19:39
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ChoHag I can't think of a more Scottish occasion that that. 19:39
RabidGravy lucasb, at this point I would probably go in with " my $class = Metamodel::ClassHOW.new_type(name => $class_name); $class.^add_parent($other-class); $class.^compose;"
TimToady well, land area is much more of a zero-sum game than computer languages, unless you live in Hawaii
ChoHag TimToady++
19:39 Zoffix joined
ChoHag I don't get why people get so wound up about this stuff. 19:39
RabidGravy or the Isle of Wight 19:40
ChoHag I think PHP is just about the worst language since INTERCAL, but my derision is not making it go anywhere.
perigrin ChoHag: the question isn't about quality of the language
19:40 ugexe joined
vendethiel ChoHag: then you havn't seen many languages ;-) 19:40
ChoHag Even Ruby and Python have finally irreversibly forced themselves onto my servers.
abraxxa Skarsnik: i've rewritten 99-common.pl6 as Test::DBDish and it works fine
19:41 petercommand joined
ChoHag And they're both just perl-lite. 19:41
Skarsnik Wow nice
abraxxa pushing in a moment
mspo Zoffix: gist.github.com/msporleder/1bf264c3e5e8e3939586
19:41 lostinfog joined, M-matthew left
abraxxa was quite easy 19:41
ChoHag Where lite means things I'm not allowed to say.
19:41 raydiak joined
TimToady thank you for keeping this a relatively PG-rated channel :) 19:42
[Coke] ok, the crontab for generating docs is:
*/5 * * * * flock -n ~/update.lock -c ./doc/util/update-and-sync > update.log 2>&1
19:43 AW3i joined
Zoffix mspo, that still doesn't solve the fact that / is an invalid filename character on *nix and thus our / and // operators do not have a generated page. 19:43
The issue is in what makes those pages, not in how Apache is displaying them
Skarsnik should it be the url encoded name?
for stuff like that?
Zoffix That's what I proposed an hour or so ago.
I don't know if that catches all the "bad" characters tho
ChoHag It should be saved as %2f 19:44
%-escaping, whatever RFC it's described in, was basically created to export unix filesystsems over HTTP.
lucasb every time I try to click on a build.log file the doc site, my browser asks me if I want to download. can someone configure some plain text header for that? or maybe change the extension to .txt ?
Zoffix nope, it doesn't
. is not encoded, so we'd still have issue with ".." 19:45
mspo Zoffix: well it's both since apache won't serve .. without .html
flussence Zoffix: maybe the pages should be named "&infix:<..>"
ChoHag In terms of *creating* urls, there are two characters which need to be escaped - / and \000. 19:46
Everything else is a valid filename.
perigrin & isn't valid in a URL.
mspo a ? is difficult too
perigrin or rather they're both interpreted specially
also #
:)
mspo # indeed
lucasb also "%" itself :D 19:47
ChoHag The point is, there needs to be a url-to-filename conversion.
mspo is % an issue?
flussence I thought & was only special after the ?, and even then only when the server-side code parses it that way
ChoHag What happens when there's two files called %26 and & is the next problem.
Zoffix lucasb, done
19:48 advwp joined
lucasb Zoffix: what did you do? :) 19:48
ChoHag flussence: Technically, I think that's the case.
lucasb *exactly
Zoffix lucasb, RE: <lucasb> every time I try to click on a build.log file the doc site,
mspo www.gothamunion.com/foo/&
ChoHag In the second part of a url, ie. after the proto://server/, only the ? is special. After the ?, all bets are off.
[Coke] the goal for those file names should be to have a web app, not a generated site, IMO. 19:49
ChoHag That's the rule of thumb I live by, anyway.
mspo ChoHag: # is also special
19:49 muraiki joined
ChoHag mspo: In the path-part of a URL? 19:49
lucasb firefox still asks me if I want to download those .log files, but now apache listing shows a text icon for then. maybe it's that Content-disposition header, idk
mspo ChoHag: it ends the path part, just like ?
ChoHag Well typical.
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mspo ChoHag: that's why so many javascript-powered sites are foo.com/#s=hithere 19:50
ChoHag Oh yes it does. Anchors.
mspo like this one: www.google.com/#q=hithere
Zoffix lucasb, which file are you viewing exactly?
perigrin ChoHag: www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1738.txt is probably useful :)
lucasb Zoffix: for example: doc.perl6.org/build-log/build-2016-...0+0000.log
flussence lucasb: might be a stale browser cache?
it's sending that as text/plain for me... 19:51
lucasb flussence: nope, tried ctrl-R and ctrl-f5 to refresh and still happens :)
ChoHag Anyway, the doc generator _must_ generate %XX files, to accomodate /, so because / isn't the only filename unix can't handle there needs to be both a means of determining which pages to generate with html-encoding and which not, and a means of determining what to do when both escaped and non-escaped files are present.
perigrin mspo: that's because everything after the # isn't sent to the server (in most browsers) so the server can send a single (massive) application to handle all the routing locally. 19:52
Zoffix lucasb, this is all the headers that get sent. It should display it in-browser: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/c08368a67246fad659cb . You may have told your browser to always download .log files (Preferences->Applications)
perigrin but tht can be cached locally too
mspo I think the pages themselves need to url-encode links when they are rendered/generated
perigrin: yes
RabidGravy wonders why someone has sent me a PR for JSON::Infer to s/JSON::Fast/JSON::Tiny/ without any further explanation
lucasb Zoffix, flussence: ok, I'll take a look at my browsers setting. It was just a minor thing anyway, I can save to disk and read after this. Thanks, Zoffix++! 19:53
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ChoHag perigrin: I know that doc. I just ... it's Christmas. 19:54
[Coke] Zoffix++ (line 432, should have listened to you. :)
ChoHag I'm on bottle no. 3.
perigrin It's nearly three kings day
Zoffix heh
19:55 hankache joined
ChoHag З Різдвом Український! 19:55
[Coke] ah, I think Zoffix might'a borked the build. 19:56
hankache hello *
[Coke] (inadvertently) 19:57
ChoHag If the question is still relevant/interesting, I suggest encoding a list of chars (starting with </ ? & #>) on the filesystem and the incoming URL, and simply 404ing on any other combination.
Zoffix :(
[Coke], when?
[Coke] with d9305216e0dd3c1b8bf6a5961946eb9884d6cdfe
gfldex hankache: i wonder if the intro should talk about hash adverbs
[Coke] testing a fix...
ChoHag If someone tries requesting %3x (<) or forcing a # into the GET line, sod 'em.
19:58 pmqs joined
Zoffix Yeah, that was my original hunch 19:58
19:58 eternaleye left
ChoHag Make the list of escaped/ing characters adjustable and we're golden. 19:58
hankache gfldex hash adverbs?
[Coke] nope, still broken, doing a bisect.. 19:59
gfldex m: my %h = a => 1; say so %h<a>:exists; # hankache
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«True␤»
20:00 leat joined
hankache gfldex ah ok. 20:00
gfldex why not then
20:00 yurivish joined
[Coke] (crontab, rebuilds, doc) I was basically searching for something based on what I expected to be failing originally. bad coke, no donut. 20:02
hankache gfldex the problem is i don't know them.
gfldex I know :D :U for scalars
20:02 M-matthew1 left
hankache gfldex what adverbs can I use for hashes ? 20:02
lucasb talking about happy faces... 20:03
m: Hash.push; Hash.append; say 'hi'
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«hi␤»
gfldex hankache: :k - key, :v - value, :p - pair, :exists - key exists
lucasb ^^ Hash could use some happy faces there
ChoHag Well that's my solitary hour of coding wasted. 20:04
Time for bed.
Zoffix \o
lichtkind_ o/
20:04 lichtkind_ is now known as lichkind
hankache gfldex thanks 20:04
gfldex i think we need to talk about all adverbs 20:06
dalek c: 7f0e077 | coke++ | doc/Language/modules.pod:
Revert "Add index flag for EXPORT"

This reverts commit d9305216e0dd3c1b8bf6a5961946eb9884d6cdfe.
This breaks the build.
[Coke] ^^ Zoffix I tried to make it look like the others there by changing it to X<|EXPORT> but that failed differently.
so I reverted it. doc site should be updated in about 90m. :|
hankache gfldex i am just wondering if we do it in a separate section called adverbs, or write about each adverb in its relevant section ? 20:07
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El_Che there should certainly be an adverb chapter in the tutorials 20:08
hoelzro agreed
gfldex hankache: it's an intro after all, i would go light on it
hankache gfldex indeed. 20:10
El_Che I still find them sowhat strange :)
are there other languages out there that use adverbs? 20:11
hankache gfldex if you have something in mind feel free to send a PR
[Coke] We should have some sort of status page for when cronjobs are failing unexpectedly. 20:12
lucasb not exactly adverbs, but the idea can be somewhat simliar to keywords in Common Lisp/Clojure and Symbols in ruby
RabidGravy "X::IO::Mkdir exception produced no message", er that's special 20:13
TimToady see S02:Adverbial_Pair_forms for a general pair syntax discussion, some of which is actually true 20:14
RabidGravy ah, bad programmer no cookie
20:14 yqt joined
hankache hiya TimToady 20:15
FROGGS tadzik: when I bootstrap panda, shouldnt it install its deps too? 20:16
tadzik FROGGS: it should 20:17
FROGGS tadzik: does not work when I bootstrap panda in my star hackery
and I wonder why
tadzik huh 20:18
20:18 M-matthew1 joined
pmqs Hey folks quick question. If $fh is an open filehandle should I be able to read a block at a time like this? for $fh.read(1024) -> $block { say $block.elems } 20:18
it seem to read a byte at a time
20:19 M-eternaleye left
FROGGS pmqs: is $block a string or a buf? 20:20
TimToady m: for $*IN.read(1024) -> $block { say $block.elems }
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤…»
FROGGS m: for $*IN.read(1024) -> $block { say $block; last }
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«67␤»
diakopter m: for $*IN.read(Inf) -> $block { say $block.elems }
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/LIbR96dgyM line 1␤␤»
nine FROGGS: #perl6-toolchain in case you're interested 20:21
pmqs froggs: didn't declare $block it at all, so whatever it default to I suppose
diakopter m: for $*IN.read(99**99) -> $block { say $block.elems }
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«Cannot unbox 657 bit wide bigint into native integer␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/j3rBHDmWne line 1␤␤»
diakopter m: for $*IN.read(9**99) -> $block { say $block.elems }
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«Cannot unbox 314 bit wide bigint into native integer␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/DInU0RZe9Q line 1␤␤»
diakopter m: for $*IN.read(9**9) -> $block { say $block.elems }
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«Out of range: attempted to read 387420489 bytes from filehandle␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/K8OnoRXr_q line 1␤␤»
diakopter sigh
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FROGGS pmqs: dunno why it gets a byte at a time... 20:22
RabidGravy I thought it was more
m: while not $*IN.eof { say $*IN.read(1024) } 20:23
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«Buf[uint8]:0x<43 c3 a9 61 64 20 73 6c c3 a1 6e 20 61 67 20 73 6c c3 a9 69 62 68 74 65 20 6d 61 6f 72 67 61 20 43 68 6f 6e 74 61 65 20 44 68 c3 ba 6e 20 6e 61 20 6e 47 61 6c 6c 0a 41 67 75 73 20 64 68 c3 a1 20 63 68 c3 a9 61 64 20 73 6c c3 a1 6e 20 61 67 20…»
TimToady perhaps the handle needs to be set to 'binary' somehow
20:23 cpage_ left
TimToady I think used to force a binary interpretation of a filehandle, but maybe that broke 20:24
20:24 darutoko left
TimToady *read used to 20:24
pmqs also with a file containing "abcdefg", if I run this for $fh.read(1024) -> $block { say $block } 20:25
I get
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
Zoffix pmqs, how do you open that file? 20:26
pmqs, try adding :bin to it
pmqs already has :bin
my $fh = open($filename, :r, :bin);
[Tux] lizmat, github.com/Tux/CSV/commit/54f4a965...469705b038
All tests successful.
Files=27, Tests=22028, 36 wallclock secs ( 2.94 usr 0.15 sys + 87.87 cusr 1.76 csys = 92.72 CPU)
RabidGravy I just assumed read didn't work like that, you just read while you haven't got eof 20:27
Zoffix pmqs, no idea. it's likely be a bug
huggable, rakudobug
huggable Zoffix, [email@hidden.address] or use perl6 query on rt.perl.org ; see github.com/rakudo/rakudo/#reporting-bugs
RabidGravy it clearly doesn't just get 1 byte as evidenced above
it's something that the foar is doing 20:28
for
Zoffix Ah
pmqs I'll raise an issue to track it
20:29 nige1 joined
Zoffix m: my $x = Blob.new: |^10; for $x -> $y { say $y } 20:29
RabidGravy pmqs, in the meanwhile "while not $fh.eof { my $block = $fh.read(1024) }" definitely works as expected
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«Blob:0x<00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09>␤»
pmqs radidgravy: yes, eof is what I'm using as a workaround 20:30
TimToady m: for ($*IN.read(1024),) -> $block { say $block.WHAT }
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«(Buf[uint8])␤»
TimToady it's calling .list on the buf
RabidGravy ha!
pmqs aaah
[Tux] csv-ip5xs 50000 17.818 17.704
test 50000 23.087 22.972
test-t 50000 12.462 12.348
csv-parser 50000 51.424 51.309
diakopter boy that 50000 number is pretty constant! 20:31
Zoffix :)
[Tux] 50000 is just an indication of correctness: the total number of fields parsed
lizmat [Tux]++ 20:32
[Tux] 12.462 however is pretty neat
TimToady m: while $*IN.read(1024) -> $block { say $block.WHAT }
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«(Buf[uint8])␤(Buf[uint8])␤»
TimToady m: while $*IN.read(1024) -> $block { say $block.WHAT }
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«(Buf[uint8])␤(Buf[uint8])␤»
20:32 M-eternaleye left
TimToady just use while instead of for 20:33
20:34 lucasb left, luiz_lha left
RabidGravy TimToady++ :) 20:35
TimToady let's see, how could we make that sentence more confusing...we already have 'use', 'while', 'of', and 'for' keywords, now we just need to make 'just' and 'instead' mean something
20:35 luiz_lha joined
RabidGravy works for me 20:35
20:35 luiz_lha is now known as Guest82811
Zoffix m: sub foo ($name = &?ROUTINE){ say $name.^methods }; foo 20:36
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«(<anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> arity count signature outer static_id file line of returns ACCEPTS Str new)␤»
pmqs while is better
Zoffix m: sub foo ($name = &?ROUTINE){ say $name.name }; foo
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«␤»
Zoffix How come name is callable even though it's not in that ^methods list?
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RabidGravy role Weirder {}; my Int $a = 1 just Weirder; 20:36
Zoffix And nother question: how can I get the name of my sub?
FROGGS Zoffix: &?ROUTINE.name
TimToady m: sub foo ($name = &?ROUTINE){ say $name.^methods(:all) }; foo
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«(<anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> arity count signature outer static_id file line of returns ACCEPTS Str new Method+{<anon|77435888>}.new Method+{<anon|77435888>}.new Method+{<anon|77435888>}.new iterator Method+{<anon|77435888>}.new Method+{<anon…»
RabidGravy that's a use for 'just' 20:37
Zoffix m: sub foo ($name = &?ROUTINE){ say &?ROUTINE.name }; foo
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«foo␤»
Zoffix Ah, you just can't use it in a sig
20:37 M-eternaleye joined
Zoffix (or rather, it has a different value) 20:37
TimToady arguably a buglet 20:38
[Coke] ah, travis already had perl6/doc figured out. :|
Zoffix reports it
20:38 leont joined
RabidGravy stick a trait_mod:sym<just> in the grammar and we're good 20:39
20:39 ribasushi left, lostinfog left
TimToady make 'just' an alias to 'only', and 'instead' and alias to 'supersede' 20:39
Zoffix Done: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=127203 20:41
dalek c: 68ae004 | coke++ | .travis.yml:
Notify IRC channel when build breaks.
20:42 TEttinger joined
Zoffix m: sub foo (|c) { bar 52, @|c}; sub bar (Str $z, Int $one, Str $two) {say "$z $one $two"}; foo (42, "43") 20:44
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«Too few positionals passed; expected 3 arguments but got 2␤ in sub bar at /tmp/Gi9Zsr39ix line 1␤ in sub foo at /tmp/Gi9Zsr39ix line 1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/Gi9Zsr39ix line 1␤␤»
Zoffix hm
uvtc Is it a primary goal moving forward to keep the Synopses up to date with Roast (future versions of the language (6.d, 6.e, etc.))? 20:45
diakopter doubts it. probably the Programming Perl monograph will continue that tradition, leaving Synopses to rot with the Apocalypses and Exegeses 20:46
*Programming Perl 6
Zoffix How do I use the |c thing?
MadcapJake anyone know where --gen-nqp and --gen-moar place the binaries? I'm in a unique OS (Solus Project) and make install only seems to install perl6 binaries (not moar/nqp ones) 20:47
diakopter should've been in teh same place as prefix 20:48
uvtc thanks, diakopter.
alpha123 MadcapJake: if it's not /usr/local/bin or equivalent then something weird happened
20:48 M-matthew1 left, yurivis__ joined
Zoffix m: sub foo (|c) { bar "42", |c}; sub bar (Str $z, Int $one, Str $two) {say "$z $one $two"}; foo (42, "43") 20:48
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«Too few positionals passed; expected 3 arguments but got 2␤ in sub bar at /tmp/QIIQBzLemb line 1␤ in sub foo at /tmp/QIIQBzLemb line 1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/QIIQBzLemb line 1␤␤»
MadcapJake alpha123, yeah something weird happened then :P
Zoffix Seems this should work based on what I see here, but it doesn't github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...ol.pm#L106 20:49
20:49 M-Illandan left, yurivish left
MadcapJake i think my best bet would be to *not* specify a prefix and just move them all by hand 20:49
20:50 travis-ci joined
travis-ci Doc build errored. Will "Coke" Coleda 'Notify IRC channel when build breaks.' 20:50
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/100913518 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/7f0e0...ae004e48b3
20:50 travis-ci left
diakopter giggle 20:50
uvtc diakopter: re. a Programming Perl 6 book. Has there been any public movement on that? 20:51
20:51 M-eternaleye left
diakopter kicks TimToady 20:51
TimToady kicks back
pmqs created #127204 to the fh.read issue
TimToady has a start on a book, when he's not kicking back
its current state is an outline plus a number of chapter intros 20:53
colomon TimToady++
uvtc TimToady: ooh! »ö« Thanks.
diakopter are you using quotes from the Fire and Ice series this time? or Hunger Games? or Harry Potter?
TimToady the only example so far is a program that prints out the 12 Days of Christmas lyrics 20:54
uvtc I always thought HHGttG went well with Perl. (Maybe more Perl 5 than 6 though?)
TimToady what will 7-year-old girls be watching next year? 20:55
hankache no idea 20:56
TimToady that's about when we want to get them interested in programming
hankache kim kardashian?
:(
diakopter instagram, twitter, vine, facebook video snippets. attention span = less than a second
uvtc Aside: my 13yo daughter doesn't program, but loves the Perl 6 logo.
hankache yeah camelia is a great logo 20:57
Util m: my $foo = 3; if $foo = 4 { say 'overwrote!' }; say $foo;
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«overwrote!␤4␤»
Util In Perl 5, with warnings enabled, I would have been warned:
TimToady we have to get both boys and girls interested before it becomes all hormone related
Util Found = in conditional, should be == at ...
Rakudo does not give this warning. Is this just NYI, or deliberate?
flussence m: say '🙋🗺' # we're already twitter-compliant :D 20:58
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«🙋🗺␤»
TimToady deliberate
diakopter I would think it should warn if it's a constant being assigned, but not otherwise
non-True constant
20:58 ribasushi joined
diakopter *True constant 20:59
ribasushi: I saw you in Hamburg!
TimToady yes, we could warn if the RHS is constant
Util TimToady: The lack of warning surprised me. I am following up for a member of Atlanta.pm, who was bitten by this change during early Perl 6 experimenting.
uvtc I see that `some-method $x: 1` is the same as `$x.some-method(1)`. Is this "indirect method call syntax"? Not complaining, but what is the rationale for that? 21:01
Or, appears to be the same as.
TimToady finds the spurious warning to be irritating on something like: while $this = getnextone() { ... }
though there's less excuse for that construct in Perl 6 than in Perl 5
since we can write: while getnextone() -> $this { ... } 21:02
Util TimToady: but you have given us: while getnextone() -> $this { ... }
(out-typed!)
TimToady otoh, what if you want the final $this after the loop?
and the failure mode of 'always true' is usually pretty obvious 21:03
21:03 colomon left
muraiki I thought I remembered there being some variable that's an implicit state variable in every sub call. does anyone know what this is? or maybe I'm hallucinating 21:03
TimToady so I tend to approach this one from the side of "don't rule out valid code"
Util 'always false' looks obvious too
FROGGS muraiki: $ ? 21:04
21:04 iml_ left
TimToady but there's not a single "implicit state variable", you can have as many anonymous state variables as you like 21:05
muraiki m: sub foo {$.say}; foo(); foo();
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/4Cl197cd1M␤Variable $.say used where no 'self' is available␤at /tmp/4Cl197cd1M:1␤------> 3sub foo {$.say7⏏5}; foo(); foo();␤ expecting any of:␤ term␤»
muraiki hmm
Util +1 on "don't rule out valid code". "warn if the RHS is constant" would catch many errors.
TimToady use ($).say for that
but you'll get Any
muraiki thanks!
Zoffix Is there anything wrong with this line? I'm getting "Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '⏏is'" even though my small testcase works gist.github.com/zoffixznet/6a95646...pm6-L6-L65
m: use Test; my $sub = 'is'; &::($sub)(␤42,␤ 43)
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - ␤␤# Failed test at /tmp/Y75547GXb0 line 1␤# expected: '43'␤# got: '42'␤»
muraiki m: sub foo {($++).say}; foo(); foo(); 21:06
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«0␤1␤»
TimToady Zoffix: shell quoting?
uvtc Ok. Found a little about it just under <design.perl6.org/S12.html#Methods>; "indirect object notation". Is it just for improved readability in some cases?
21:06 M-Illandan joined, bpetering joined
Zoffix TimToady, huh? 21:06
TimToady well, I just saw the single quotes, so I wondered 21:07
Zoffix No, it's a test file with this in it: output-is { say 42; note 'warning!'; say "After warning"; }, "42\nwarning!\nAfter warning\n";
mst /msg tony-o please do make sure to join us in #perl6-toolchain
Zoffix That I run as perl6 t/01-stdout.t
mst gah
there
Zoffix mst, lulzyan00b :P
mst, also: xchat
^_^
mst Zoffix: eat an entire trout.me.uk/hopper.jpg 21:08
Zoffix >_<
21:08 jeek left
[Coke] nerdist.com/fisher-price-code-a-pil...o-program/ 21:09
21:10 atweiden joined
Zoffix Oooop 21:11
*ooooh
21:11 kaare_ left
Zoffix m: 'foo' == 42 21:11
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/yY5LfBJctM:␤Useless use of "==" in expression "'foo' == 42" in sink context (line 1)␤Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5foo' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/y…»
Zoffix m: say so 'foo' == 42
camelia rakudo-moar ed6ec7: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5foo' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/TMnTe4ubGR line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/TMnTe4ubGR line 1␤␤»
skids uvtc: Indirect object notation is mainly a readability thing, and if you don't have it you'll get constant questions like "why can I call say 1, 2 but not .map: { ... }" from users of a few other languages.
Zoffix ^ that's my error
21:11 molaf left
masak "I can't think of a scenario where Perl 6 grows *and* Perl 5 grows." -- that, in my mind, sums up www.dagolden.com/index.php/2589/per...l-enemies/ quite well 21:11
dagolden is unable to imagine a thing, and he wrote a post about that 21:12
Zoffix masak, that's a good summary.
bpetering masak: my thoughts exactly, and I'm happy you're already on it 21:13
lichkind rakudobrw no version set, what does that mean?
bpetering I have enough thoughts (and polemic) for a full-length rebuttal, but it may be more beneficial coming from someone with a higher profile 21:14
skids to be fair I think he probably meant something more like no such scenario seems likely according to his ability to estimate. 21:15
Zoffix But I can give a different summary: "Perl 5 is in trouble and I'm afraid Perl 6 will make it worse"
bpetering Zoffix: that sounds about right 21:16
uvtc skids, thanks, sounds good, though I don't get your example. I'm also trying to understand what the [colon on the *inside*](github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master...ion.t#L44) means).
PerlJam you guys should all write your own post "rebutting" his thought experiment
:)
TimToady I dunno, sometimes these things are just a distraction 21:17
Juerd masak: I'm similarly unable to imagine the same thing but I no longer really care.
FROGGS uvtc: the colon is (as elsewhere) the invocant marker
abraxxa Skarsnik: can you give a quick guide what I need to do to run the PostgreSQL tests?
masak my likely scenario: many Perl 5 people will largely ignore Perl 6, or be slightly annoyed by it. a very small amount of people will try Perl 6 and write blogs saying "hey, Perl 6 is not teh sux". Perl 6 will putter ahead along some trajectory. so will Perl 5.
TimToady
.oO(Someone is wrong about Perl 6 on the Internet!)
Skarsnik abraxxa, no idea, look at the travis.yml? 21:18
Zoffix PerlJam, I don't have a rebuttal :)
masak there, I imagined a non-zero-sum game. wasn't hard.
Juerd I will probably forever remain convinced that it "would have been" better to rename Perl 6. But it's there now, and I love it regardless of its name :)
dalek kudo/nom: 023b6c3 | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/RepositoryRegistry.pm:
We no longer support config files

So we don't need to check for it
skids uvtc: as far as the example, often you do something like $mylist .= grep: { big multiline block it would such to have to remember to put a parenthesis after }
Zoffix masak, that ignores the fact that P5 is in trouble :D
bpetering TimToady: fair, and I have an XKCD in my head :o)
FROGGS uvtc: so, a(b: c) compiles to b.a(c)
TimToady we'd've had many more fights before now if we'd named it something else, in my estimation
21:19 P6Test left, yurivis__ left
Zoffix TimToady, agreed. And confusion too... "It's FooBarBer... also, it used to be named Perl 6" 21:19
Juerd Zoffix: Well, "they" could rewrite the entire language to fix those issues. Oh, wait. :P
TimToady and it wouldn't change the fact that I'm basically leading people away from Perl 5
(gently)
21:19 domidumont joined
masak Zoffix: there's a difference between "Perl 5 will not evolve significantly" (probably true) and "Perl 5 will stop being useful to many people" (likely false) 21:19
PerlJam Zoffix: neither do I. I don't think there's anything to rebut really. (You can't really debug other people's brains)
Juerd TimToady: It doesn't matter anymore, anyway :)
abraxxa Skarsnik: LOL. just reading README.Debian.gz and the first line goes: PostgreSQL is the successor to Postgres95, which in turn succeeded POSTGRES.
and I think: WTF 9.4 is the successor of 9.5 which was just released? 21:20
TimToady besides Perl already has an entry in the OED, and I didn't want to waste it :)
uvtc skids: Ah, interesting (re the `.=` usage). Thanks.
Juerd masak: I heard too many hackers talk about efforts to remove Perl [5] from standard Linux distributions, after the anti-Perl talk at 32C3
Skarsnik POSTGRES is an old thing probably x)
Juerd masak: If this happens, Perl 5 is dead.
Zoffix masak, there's a difference between "being useful" and "requiring a screenful of `use` statements to be useful"
bpetering TimToady: that's the best argument I've heard :)
dalek kudo/nom: f1dd491 | lizmat++ | src/core/CompUnit/RepositoryRegistry.pm:
Fix one %*ENV straggler
 21:21
masak Juerd: "anti-Perl talk at 32C3"? this is news to me.
Juerd TimToady: Haha. Nice one :)
uvtc FROGGS: Ah, ok. Thanks! Will have to try some examples to find the cases where it reads better that way.
bpetering anyway, I probably won't write about this, I'd rather get the ecosystem X% closer to people getting paid for Perl 6 work
Juerd masak: Titled "Perl Jam 2", after the 2014 talk "Perl Jam". Both are a bunch of FUD with very little substance, but to an audience that increasingly doesn't know Perl, it all sounds very scary.
masak Zoffix: "screenful of `use` statements" is an argument against Perl 5, yes. but a weak and largely self-defeating one. those `use` statements are largely of modules from CPAN, honed to perfection to solve people's problems and keep Perl 5 relevant. 21:22
Skarsnik bpetering, I kind of break your PR in GPTrixie x)
bpetering Juerd: that CCC talk was a whole bunch of bullshit
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TimToady Now is not the time to let the bastards start wearing us down. :) 21:22
masak who's being worn down? :)
I'm just worning up! :D 21:23
bpetering TimToady: yes. enough politicking, more hacking!
masak .oO( this is your final worning )
Juerd This time the speaker actually did find a dangerous thing in the language itself, namely the whole ARGV thing with 2-arg open. There's a workaround in recent Perls but that doesn't fix the language because the insecure stuff is still there, still enabled by default, easier to type, in numerous documents, and in numerous programs. But an entire talk, with "STOP USING PERL" as the main message (screenshots of that slide were retweeted probably more than ...
21:23 geraud joined, WAAQAFP joined
Juerd ... TimToady's Perl 6 announcement), about a single security issue, seems a bit much. 21:23
bpetering: There was this one non-bullshit thing, but that real problem didn't get the attention it deserved, because he kept ranting about actual bullshit. 21:24
bpetering Skarsnik: that's fine, I offer it in the spirit of "maybe you were going to write this eventually"
Skarsnik Yes It was planned x)
Juerd TimToady: If now is not the time, then when is? ;)
skids uvtc: the "meth obj: args" form is documented design.perl6.org/S03.html#Invocant_marker and it is basically sugar for the fp oriented AFAICT.
Zoffix masak, it's not a weak argument if (a) Language XYZ already provides that stuff without `use` statements; and most importantly (b) where there's a gazillion of modules to choose from and it's hard to make a correct choice. Especially when the author may turn out to be insane
21:25 M-Illandan left
Juerd Zoffix: I like insane authors 21:25
skids uvtc: seems to visually violate the non-exported barrier but oh well.
masak yes, it's a weak argument. I'd rather take Perl 5's dozen `use` statements over Java's feeble inexpressivity or C++'s crazy syntax and semantics.
sivoais strcat(3) still exists in C. Source of buffer overflows. Guess we should all stop using C. (All this assumes we don't have linters.) 21:26
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Zoffix masak, but what about Perl 6? 21:26
masak all languages have weaknesses. you can complain that you have to keep a boilerplate header of 12 `use` statements, but there's worse than that.
Zoffix: I prefer to code in Perl 6, if that's what you're asking.
I wouldn't argue against Perl 5 by complaining against all the things you can `use` in it ;) 21:27
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masak complaining about* 21:27
Zoffix heh
Juerd masak: About this hypothetical boilerplate, I find that I usually have no more than about 5 or 6 use statements, excluding strict and warnings.
masak *nod* 21:28
Skarsnik bpetering, on a bright side, it's 50 times faster on some part x)
uvtc skids: thanks for the link!
masak Juerd: clearly you're not tchrist, then :P
Juerd But then, I do write my own sub read_file { local (@ARGV, $/) = shift; <> } instead of use File::Slurp qw(read_file);
Zoffix which is broken
Juerd Which one is? 21:29
Zoffix the module
masak Juerd: see this answer: stackoverflow.com/a/6163129
bpetering Skarsnik: nice work :) it's already speeding up my nativecall stuff sooo much
Juerd Again?
mst masak: plus my Import::Into module makes it trivial to turn it into a single use statement
Juerd Glad I don't use it much then :)
skids uvtc: BTW it is out of date and could use a "port" over to docs/ but www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?witch can find such links for you pretty well.
masak mst: ooh, nice
bpetering sivoais: yeah, that seemed to be the speaker's argument
mst masak: Zoffix has written such things using it :)
Zoffix :) 21:30
Juerd masak: Oh my, I thought *I* was picky about encodings.
21:30 domidumont left
Juerd I don't use most of the unicode features though 21:30
leont Juerd: I wrote File::Slurper because File::Slurp is pretty much unfixable
uvtc skids: nice 21:31
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bpetering Juerd: anyone I've read who knows anything about perl, at all, was quite unimpressed by that guy, legitimate security issues aside 21:32
leont Juerd: blogs.perl.org/users/leon_timmerman...wrong.html 21:33
Juerd leont: I started reading that blog post just before you mentioned it directly :)
bpetering Skarsnik: out of curiosity, why "gptrixie"? I can't relate that to any concepts around FFI or nativecall or binding :o) 21:34
Juerd bpetering: Yes. But do consider that only a tiny minority of the audience actually knows anything about Perl.
bpetering Juerd: that's pretty unimpressive for CCC
Zoffix bpetering, couldn't think of a name, so name it after a pony in My Little Pony
21:34 Tonik left
Juerd bpetering: There are actually thousands of people now who really believe that Perl should never be used. 21:35
Skarsnik Well she is a magical unicorn and the program does magic stuff to have NC code!
Zoffix :D
Juerd bpetering: And at these conferences, they hugely outnumber the people who've ever used Perl.
bpetering Hahahaha.... that fits with camelia, I guess?
abraxxa Skarsnik: pg testing works now too
bpetering Juerd: I don't respect security types who aren't fluent in at least one language that was created before they were born 21:36
PerlJam bpetering: english? ;) 21:37
bpetering PerlJam: only if you're Kevin Mitnick :P 21:38
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bpetering This is getting... odd. Do I really have to go research my little pony now to verify this? 21:39
Skarsnik Verify what? x) 21:40
21:40 M-eternaleye left
FROGGS ***ALL*** - just made an RC0 of rakudo star, as of today's codebase: froggs.de/perl6/rakudo-star-2016.01-RC0.tar.gz 21:40
Zoffix LTA error
m: sub foo ( $x where { any <foo bar> }, $y { where 42 } ) { };
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Expression needs parens to avoid gobbling block␤at /tmp/zGERsntt2y:1␤------> 3sub foo ( $x where { any <foo bar> }7⏏5, $y { where 42 } ) { };␤Missing block (apparently claimed by expression)␤at /tmp/zGERsntt2y:1␤------>…»
Zoffix m: sub foo ( $x where { 42 }, $y { where 42 } ) { };
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Expression needs parens to avoid gobbling block␤at /tmp/gSOsYvX4uK:1␤------> 3sub foo ( $x where { 42 }7⏏5, $y { where 42 } ) { };␤Missing block (apparently claimed by expression)␤at /tmp/gSOsYvX4uK:1␤------> 3sub foo …»
21:41 DrParis_ is now known as DrParis
bpetering closes eyes, thinks of England, Googles... 21:41
Juerd bpetering: The point that I was trying to get across, is that not what you and I think, or what the collective Perl community thinks, will determine Perl [5]'s fate.
FROGGS ***ALL*** - please test it and report bugs to the rakudo/star repository, but keep in mind it is an RC0, so dont update your production servers just now
Juerd bpetering: It's what most people think, that will eventually determine the outcome.
Zoffix Reported: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=127205 21:42
Juerd But I personally have already given up on thinking Perl 5 has a future. I'll continue to use it for all the reasons that I've always had for using it, none of which have to do with things like still having a job 10 years from now. 21:43
And when Perl 6 performs better and a great version of a nice compiler is distributed by Debian, I'll definitely use it for work stuff. 21:44
Considering the impressive progress that it's made, I'm convinced that the great minds here will eventually make this happen :)
leont Juerd: I wish I was more optimistic than you are, but I'm not really :-/ 21:45
bpetering Juerd: I'm pretty much in the same boat. Perl 5 is great, but there's a reason Perl 6 started in the first place
Juerd leont: Then still in the worst possible case, where Perl 6 doesn't gain momentum outside our current community, it will influence future languages. 21:46
bpetering Juerd: I for one would be a very happy camper to get to use Perl 6 professionally
[Coke] FROGGS: thank you so much for putting that out there.
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Juerd leont: It's a language that just can't be ignored. The compiler? Sure, you can ignore that and just never use Perl 6. But anyone who's serious about programming language design will have to look at Perl 6 and will definitely copy parts of its design. 21:47
FROGGS [Coke]: and it feels weird how small the patches were
bpetering masak: regarding this stuff, I have some thoughts about a killer app for Perl 6
21:47 woolfy left
leont Agreed. Benefiting from the headstart is the challenge though. 21:47
21:49 uvtc left
Zoffix A killer app? What, does it have a gun? XD 21:49
bpetering Zoffix: a hyper
Juerd All we need to do is make Perl 6 perform very well and rewrite Mediawiki. Everyone wants a replacement for it. :) 21:50
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bpetering Juerd: that sounds like a decent idea 21:50
RabidGravy I think someone needs to write a mailing list manager, then we'll know the language has arrived
bpetering RabidGravy: Zawinski's law? :)
Juerd RabidGravy: Not just 'a' mailing list manager. 21:51
PerlJam
.oO( All we need to do is make Perl 6 perform very well on problems that have yet to be realized )
RabidGravy oh wait, no sorry, someone has to say "I think there should be a mailing list manager" and everyone else has to bike shed it to death
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RabidGravy ;-) 21:51
Juerd PerlJam: Well, if we can make it perform well on contrived benchmarks that's a very good start :)
PerlJam: Thus far it's hard to even come up with something where Perl 6 will shine in terms of CPU or memory usage. 21:52
Zoffix PerlJam++
Juerd But surely this must be a matter of time
RabidGravy every once in this while I have this weird idea about implementing MoarVM on an FPGA
[Coke] ok, that last doc failure was a red herring, rebuilt on travis, it seems fine. At least now we'll get a warning when something breaks the build going forward.
dalek ar/release: 4e8a9f9 | FROGGS++ | tools/star/Makefile:
sine we bootstrap panda, we dont fake its state
Zoffix [Coke]++
PerlJam Juerd: I think so too.
21:52 zwu left
bpetering Juerd: nativecall bindings get you performant code, sysadmin people will appreciate this 21:52
[Coke] (note that travis takes about 25m for a build to succeed, compared to 70-80 on hack, but that's probably because we're pygmentizing) 21:53
bpetering Juerd: that's where my immediate efforts are going
Juerd bpetering: Great!
bpetering BTW, in my immediate hit list are (in order) libsodium, libgit2, libssh
If anyone has ideas, let me know
atweiden bpetering: argon2
Juerd Yesterday I tried to figure out if I could write a faster stringifier for tommath. Python's is very fast. But it turns out I severely lack skill and knowledge to even understand the current code bases sufficiently :) 21:54
I did find that Python has a special and optimized case for base 10 integers.
bpetering: I'd really love to see an SSL variant of IO::Socket::Async 21:55
leont SSL is a mess, no matter how you implement it :-(
bpetering Juerd: i appreciated your investigation regardless, and I'm in a similar position regarding Rakudo/Moar internals
TimToady yes, it's possible to do much better than repeated division when you have a base that is related to 8 and 2
Juerd leont: Yes, but it needs to be done, and I can't do it :(
bpetering Juerd: I'll keep that in mind, but it sure won't be OpenSSL
mspo Juerd: linux distros should remove perl from base
Juerd TimToady: They do use repeated division, but apparently by 10**something
FROGGS bpetering: we've got OpenSSL bindings already, no? 21:56
mspo and python and the rest of the things they include and refuse to update
Skarsnik gnutls is not a replacement for openssl lib?
21:56 lucasb joined
Juerd mspo: Sorry, I can't hear you. The line seems to be breaking up. Do you hear that digital noise in the background too? 21:56
Zoffix mspo, and what would power all the system tools?
Juerd Zoffix: sh of course
leont gnutls is just as bad, if not worse, from what I've seen
mspo indeed, the shell 21:57
leont libtomcrypt has all primitives one could need for an ssl library, I've wondered how hard it would be to write an ssl library on top of it.
perigrin Zoffix: obviously they should all be written in Go.
mspo or awk (which gets fewer updates)
perigrin hides.
Zoffix :D
bpetering atweiden: that looks nice, I'll see what I can do
Juerd bpetering: I don't really care about which ssl library will be used. They all suck :)
lucasb hey, so... the rakudo star is called 2016.01... but it'll ship with rakudo 2015.12 ?
bpetering FROGGS: I think so, but OpenSSL arguably provides negative security 21:58
Juerd lucasb: My new clock came with expired batteries. So I guess one month is okayish :)
bpetering FROGGS: it's difficult to put effort into that
FROGGS lucasb: it is a release candidate of today's rakudo... both 2016.01 and 2015.12 are basically wrong, so dont take the seriously
RabidGravy can someone write me a time machine, I may want to go and alter the minds of the person who designed the Unix file permissions, testing this is a royal pain
FROGGS bpetering: true
lucasb rakudo is all wrong /o\
TimToady no, just those two release, on average they're fine :) 21:59
lucasb FROGGS++, just kidding. thanks for looking after the star release
FROGGS lucasb: no, just the RC I made between to compiler releases :o)
RabidGravy everything is wrong
mspo RabidGravy: can you think of a better one?
RabidGravy but FROGGS++
lucasb I just think it's interesting that rakudo star 2016.01 will ship *before* the rakudo compiler 2016.01 22:00
FROGGS lucasb: it wont
RabidGravy mspo, no, it fits nicely in 16 bits
lucasb ahhh, you will wait
FROGGS lucasb: star 2016.01 will come afterwards
I just wann get feedback as early as I can
lucasb moarvm updated libuv, but no nqp bump took place. I guess this will be delayed? 22:01
TimToady I thought that was just in a branch...
muraiki I don't suppose there's any shorthand for @*ARGS[0], is there? heh
lucasb TimToady: it got merged in moarvm master, I think 22:02
Juerd muraiki: You can unpack @*ARGS in the signature of a sub MAIN
muraiki Juerd: yeah, I'm playing code golf so that would be longer, haha
Juerd OH wow 22:03
It comes with a "Usage: ..." error message
♥ ♥ ♥
This will save so much time
skids
.oO(all the people pidgeon gave greenish username colors are all talking at once.)
muraiki yeah, the stuff main() does is great
Juerd Even Bool :$foo does exactly what I would want it to do 22:04
bpetering "gptrixie" ~~ "Great and Powerful Trixie" ahhh
TimToady what it doesn't do well yet is subcommands
muraiki it's still super awesome though :)
skids ...and legacy style flags for emulation, but that could be a module. 22:05
22:06 skids left
gfldex we don't really expain sub MAIN in the docs 22:06
leont It's also useful to make MAIN a multi, specially with subcommands
I use this in my scripts for example for a --help option: paste.scsys.co.uk/504088 22:07
It turns the script's POD into text, and displays that to the user 22:08
(I'd love to see a Pod::To::ANSI or some such)
[Coke] FROGGS: please don't cut a star release that isn' 2015.12 22:09
Util TimToady, diakopter: Thanks! Bug filed at rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=127206
[Coke] if I'm reading backscroll correctly. 22:10
FROGGS [Coke]: nine and lizmat suggested that we are going to skip a 2015.12 star
[Coke]: otherwise we would have to make a point release 22:11
bpetering Skipping makes sense to me, FWIW
lucasb leont: I saw in Pod::To::Text's source that it can work together with Terminal::ANSIColor. but idk who it looks like and if that's what you meant.
*idk how
FROGGS gnight #perl6 22:12
[Coke] ok, so it'll eventually be based on the 2016.01 release? That's fine. But we have lots of decisions to make before then in terms of what goes into that release. (FYI)
Zoffix night
[Coke] FROGGS++ for trying to get that going. 22:13
FROGGS [Coke]: sure (discussions)
leont lucasb: Nice! That must be new then. It depending on an environmental variable is stupid though.
22:14 raiph joined
nine Good night all! 22:14
lizmat gnight nine
[Coke] wanders away from the keyboard. 22:15
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muraiki is there a way to insert a string into a regex in order to create a regex dynamically? something like ('abc', 'def').map: rx/<[$_]>/ 22:22
masak suppresses the urge to do an over-the-top snarky RT of the "mortal enemies" tweet
dalek c: 2da299a | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/functions.pod:
begin docing sub MAIN
c: 42d74b4 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/functions.pod:
Merge pull request #327 from gfldex/master

begin docing sub MAIN
Zoffix muraiki, definitely is, but I don't know what it is
muraiki Zoffix: yeah, I figure there must be a way, but I don't know how T_T 22:23
masak muraiki: you're almost there
muraiki: just need the braces for the .map
Zoffix really? 0.o
abraxxa Skarsnik: MySQL works as well 22:24
Zoffix m: my $foo = 'a* bc'; say so 'aaabc' ~~ /$foo/
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak m: say so "abc" ~~ $_ for <abc def>.map({ rx/<$_>/ })
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
lucasb but... he wants to create a char-class <[abc]> or wants to match the string 'abc'?
masak muraiki: like that.
Zoffix masak, hm, how to make it consider special regex chars tho?
muraiki masak: ah I see, thanks
masak Zoffix: by magic. 22:25
Skarsnik abraxxa, if that make the whole test thing less messy, it's cool x)
Zoffix :(
abraxxa Skarsnik: i'm trying to get the current tests working first so I know I don't break something
masak Zoffix: actually, the `<$str>` version basically parses $str into a regex, compiling it.
gfldex Zoffix: that would require the regexp to be recompiled
abraxxa SQLite works as well
masak Zoffix: does that answer your question?
Zoffix m: my $foo = 'a* bc'; say so 'aaabc' ~~ /<$foo>/ 22:26
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«True␤»
Zoffix masak, yes, thanks
22:26 thzre left
abraxxa mysql is missing null handling 22:26
just fixed that in Pg
masak Zoffix: sorry I said "magic" ;)
Zoffix :)
22:26 mcmillhj joined
masak I meant "through a very boring, predictable process" 22:26
Skarsnik You can add test for pgarray if you are willing too x)
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Zoffix I didn't realize < and > were part of it so in my first test above the special chars didn't take 22:28
abraxxa mst: does mysql differentiate between '' and NULL?
Zoffix Yes
masak Zoffix: `<$str>` means "interpolate string (as a regex)", `$str` means "interpolate string (verbatim)"
abraxxa yes, from the C lib docs: NULL values in the row are indicated by NULL pointers. 22:29
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travis-ci Doc build errored. Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer 'Merge pull request #327 from gfldex/master 22:29
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/100935357 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/68ae0...d74b474ee1
22:29 travis-ci left
masak Zoffix: unlike Perl 5, you have to go out of your way a little bit to get the wild and unsafe version 22:29
abraxxa how can I detect this with NativeCall?
Skarsnik abraxxa, I think you get the NULL type for the field
abraxxa Skarsnik: AH, thanks 22:30
Zoffix masak, that's the most common usecase in my code, so I'm glad :)
Skarsnik and Null ptr are Str or Any
abraxxa which sucks
lucasb sorry, to repeat this, but just before rakudo 2016.01 ships, it will bump nqp version to use nqp 2016.01. so basically, you're letting for the last day to test the libuv update. that's why I'm asking: can nqp in rakudo be bumped *now*?
abraxxa because if the column is a float column I want to return a Rat type object so I need to know the type
Skarsnik ? 22:31
Oh I see
abraxxa Skarsnik: we've discussed this already and the consensus was to return a type object
but we might need to change that
Skarsnik for null value?
abraxxa because you don't know the type in NULL cases for some RDBMSes 22:32
Skarsnik hm wait, you will get the type on the field since it's a function you can call before grabbing the value
abraxxa in Oracle for example a calculated column which isn't based on a table column does return both zero for the digits before and after the comma 22:33
Skarsnik I think drivers need to tell their features
lizmat lucasb: is the MOARVM of nqp already bumped ?
masak m: my $x = q[<$x>]; say so "foo" ~~ / <$x> / 22:34
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /home/camelia/EVAL_0␤Prohibited regex interpolation (use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL to override,␤but only if you're VERY sure your data contains no injection attacks)␤at /home/camelia/EVAL_0:1␤------> 3anon regex {…»
Skarsnik especially since I am very tempted to return Date/DateTime object when possible
since they are some sql type
muraiki m: @*ARGS=["a"]; say ("ab", "cd").first({@*ARGS ~~ rx/<[$_]>/}, :k)
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
lucasb lizmat: yes, I think moarvm was already bumped in nqp
masak m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; my $x = q[<$x>]; say so "foo" ~~ / <$x> /
abraxxa Skarsnik: sure, that's the next step 22:35
lizmat lucasb: also with the gc fix of the past week ?
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
lucasb lizmat: yes, I think it was bumped because of this gc fix
abraxxa so how can I test if the returned value is a NULL Pointer?
Skarsnik compare Str or Any
abraxxa should a Pointer or CPointer type object get returned from NativeCall?
lizmat [Coke]: you ok with me bumping NQP_REVISION to get the latest Moar ? 22:36
muraiki m: @*ARGS=["a"]; say ("ab", "cd").first({@*ARGS ~~ rx/<[<$_>]>/}, :k)
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
Skarsnik m: my Str $foo; say $foo === Str; 22:37
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«True␤»
Skarsnik m: my Str $foo; say $foo === Any;
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak muraiki: I'm not sure you can use `<$_>` like that, inside of a char class 22:38
muraiki doh 22:39
gfldex where can i find how rakudo constructs a sub? 22:40
diakopter .... many places ^_^
gfldex just one will do
lizmat sub a { }
??
TimToady mostly src/Perl6/Actions.nqp 22:41
and src/Perl6/World.nqp
with honorable mention going to src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp
diakopter "here's 4500 LoC" 22:42
abraxxa WTF doc.perl6.org/type/Hash#%3Aexists
i can't see the usage of :exists and :p there
gfldex it's 9559 LoC actually
TimToady where can I found out how sausage is constructed?
where can I find out how laws are made? 22:43
diakopter strictly, the intestines.
your favorite, the colon.
gfldex TimToady: there you go en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
abraxxa no, google!
Zoffix gfldex, rakudo uses nqp BTW 22:44
TimToady
.oO(no guts, no glory)
Zoffix under the hood, maybe that's where you should look
gfldex i guessed as much
diakopter the cacophany of noodles
gfldex found it! github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/....nqp#L3267
TimToady hehe 22:45
_Dave_ Remember, Google returns different results to different people
lucasb gfldex: github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a7e005...7afdc37649 # <-- forgot to add the :exists and :p adverbs?
diakopter who blogged www.dagolden.com/index.php/2589/per...l-enemies/
lizmat xdg
Zoffix xdg
Juerd diakopter: dagolden did 22:46
Zoffix diakopter, metacpan.org/author/DAGOLDEN
RabidGravy xdg done a job on me, now I am a real sickie
Zoffix *sigh* I'm like a slow kid :)
Juerd Zoffix: No, your response contains more information so it's only logical that it would take longer :)
gfldex lucasb: they are there 22:47
abraxxa _Dave_: I use DuckDuckGo anyway
lucasb gfldex: in the code block?
_Dave_ me too lol
gfldex lucasb: you are right 22:48
_Dave_ these days, if I really want to find something I either a) use both or b) endure the geek angst and ask the question anyway
Juerd I think it's unfortunate that dagolden doesn't allow on-site comments
RabidGravy that's actually a well balanced blog post compared to a lot of the stuff out there 22:49
gfldex m: my %h = a => 1; dd %h; %h<a>:delete; dd %h
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«Hash %h = {:a(1)}␤Hash %h = {}␤»
diakopter I suppose all of those scenarios have already been hashed here
but I'm wretchedly averse to take a look at the irc log 22:50
TimToady there was some discussion, yes
RabidGravy dave golden from what I know of him is not given to dramatics
Juerd diakopter: What's your take?
TimToady my suggestion is that overreacting is a more worrisome risk than underreacting 22:51
Juerd Determining the right amount of reacting is hard though :) 22:52
_Dave_ how about pro-acting? :)
perigrin RabidGravy: he isn't which is why that is better balanced than a lot of the stuff out there :)
That doesn't mean he didn't react from the place that a low level Perl + C developer who sees something else that may challenge his ability to get future work doing similar stuff to the work he _currently_ enjoys ... would. 22:53
dalek c: 2791bbc | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod:
fix :exists example
c: a124b91 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod:
add :delete to Hash
c: 409f9ed | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | /:
Merge remote-tracking branch 'upstream/master'
c: fd6293b | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod:
Merge pull request #328 from gfldex/master

fix :exists example | add :delete to Hash
diakopter Juerd: #2 for 2 more years, #3 for 2 years, then #2 for 4 years, then ... I don't know
22:54 cognominal joined
abraxxa Skarsnik: i've pushed all my code changes 22:54
Skarsnik in your fork?
diakopter I'm not ruling out #1, but not before 6-8 years from now, and not before gigantic shifts occur on modulecounts.com 22:55
abraxxa yes
i hope we can rebase the main repo to it soon
hoelzro is pretty ok with #3 22:56
Skarsnik I think a release should be tagged for Star for DBIish
hoelzro but I wouldn't mind #1 ;)
gfldex FROGGS: on a non clean install with --prefix=$HOME/local I got:
t/spec/S17-lowlevel/lock.t (Wstat: 256 Tests: 23 Failed: 1) Failed test: 15
Skarsnik before doing even more change on it
diakopter at some point the lingua franca becomes English, and then maybe French again
well. Frankish. 22:57
perigrin diakopter: I don't think you need a gigantic shift, just a single order of magnitude really
RabidGravy Franglish
abraxxa Skarsnik: not sure if it's better to delay such large changes
timotimo "They compete for scarce resources to grow – in the form of volunteers who will contribute time and treasure." - i harshly disagree. a whole lot of contributions have come from people who otherwise weren't interested in perl5 at all
leont I think all languages that got popular existed for like 5+ years before they did. Java and .Net were a bit younger, but had massive corporate weight behind them.
timotimo am i wrong in that interpretation? 22:58
lucasb gfldex++, thanks for the doc update. (only the :p adverb is missing now)
flussence
.oO( modulecounts.com will be seen in a different light once someone figures out having the internet precariously balanced on a million barely-QAed node libraries isn't such a hot idea )
hoelzro timotimo: I would say that's correct
leont timotimo: there is some overlap, but it's fairly small
hoelzro it assumes that everyone working on Perl 6 is a person who would put just as much time and energy into Perl 5 were 6 not to exist
Skarsnik abraxxa, I am not sure to get your change on 99? did you just rewrite the test? 22:59
Juerd I'll admit that I'd have continued to put energy into Perl 5 if it were not for Perl 6. It is at least partly true.
perigrin hoelzro, timotimo: not exactly ...
Juerd Not sure if my involvement with either project makes a difference though :)
abraxxa Skarsnik: haven't pushed that so far
timotimo "First, a postulate: given the language similarities, the people that will find it easiest to learn Perl 6 are today's Perl 5 developers." - i also disagree harshly with this. i found perl6 nice to learn, but i would never touch perl 5 with a 10-foot-pole from where i stand right now 23:00
PerlJam Juerd: feather made a *huge* difference IMHO :)
diakopter timotimo++ I harshly agree with your last
gfldex lucasb: some day i will get them all right at the same time :)
hoelzro perigrin: could you elaborate?
Juerd PerlJam: Thanks. To be honest I already sort of forgot about feather... :)
diakopter timotimo: you are extremely correct; JavaScript is much closer to Perl 5 than Perl 6 is close to Perl 5
perigrin hoelzro: I"m not sure it'd be welcome with the harsh disagreements and agreements :)
hoelzro =) 23:01
well, feel free to elaborate if you like; if not, that's ok too
RabidGravy yeah, I've been doing Perl for 20+ years and I'm sure I'll being doing Perl 5 again in the future, but hey I may be doing Javascript or Erlang in six months if people want to pay me for it 23:02
perigrin hoelzro: suffice it to say I (less harshly) disagree with his postulate but if you take it as axiomatic and then read his statments following less as absolutes than as "tendancies" ...
Skarsnik abraxxa, I am not fan of Rat for float. Rat seems more complex that just a value with float. I think people use Num for float in lot of case x)
diakopter I frankly see almost no similarity between Perl 5 and 6, both from implementor's perspective and.... is there another perspective?
hoelzro perigrin: he eqv xdg?
perigrin hoelzro: yes.
abraxxa Skarsnik: it's Perl 6's default
hoelzro *nod*
TEttinger I think the people that will find it easiest to learn perl 6 are people who were recently laid off from a polyglot software development job and so have a lot of free time and JUST WISH all those other languages had all their features IN ONE PLACE! 23:03
hoelzro fair point
perigrin diakopter: I frankly don't think you're in a position to comment accurately anymore than xdg is.
leont diakopter: I see lots of similarity, but it's mainly on a philosophical level
Skarsnik my Num $a = 4.5; say $a;
abraxxa digs Perl 6 for async + threading features
Skarsnik m: my Num $a = 4.5; say $a;
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/jtf8eB42cX␤Cannot assign a literal of type Rat (4.5e0) to a variable of type Num. You can declare the variable to be of type Real, or try to coerce the value with 4.5e0.Num or Num(4.5e0), or just write the va…»
perigrin I'd give leont a better benefit of the doubt than either of you :)
diakopter perigrin: do you see some similarity between Perl 6 and 5?
abraxxa m: my $foo = 4.5; say $foo;
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«4.5␤»
hoelzro also, I have the bias that I'm looking at the point from the view of someone who has contributed directly to the compiler
PerlJam diakopter: about 4 characters worth
;)
perigrin diakopter: I'm not qualified to comment either ... I don't know perl6 well enough.
abraxxa m: my $foo = 4.5; say $foo.^name; 23:04
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«Rat␤»
lucasb diakopter: it's almost like one language has sigils and the doesn't
abraxxa that's what I mean by default
hoelzro whereas my P5 core contributions sum to a documentation change and a helper script
lucasb *the other
dalek osystem: 11089d4 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | META.list:
Add Test::Output to Ecosystem

Test the output to STDOUT and STDERR your program generates: github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Test-Output
23:04 muraiki left, zwu joined
hoelzro thinking about it as mindshare and people working on the ecosystem frames it differently 23:04
abraxxa Skarsnik: but that's something time will tell I guess
perigrin hoelzro: also is Perl6's current _need_ right now more core hackers? 23:05
diakopter perigrin: you don't think I've contributed enough to implementing Perl 6?
hoelzro perigrin: not really
lucasb (I was joking. Of course P5 and P6 has similarities! Otherwise P6 wouldn't call Perl)
perigrin diakopter: I don't think you've contributed enough to core parts of perl5
Skarsnik need are in the core and 'basic' module I think
hoelzro Skarsnik: agreed 23:06
perigrin diakopter: which may be an uninformed opinon on my part.
23:07 yurivish left
Juerd Is there a type for "a number"? Something that will accept Num, Int, Rat, uint8, etc, but not a string? 23:07
leont Numish
I think
lucasb Numericish
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diakopter perigrin: from *any* perspective, do you see any similarity between Perl 5 and 6? 23:07
leont Numeric? 23:08
Quom__ We certainly have many more modules that are 'translations' from Perl 5, although I wonder if those attempts shouldn't too try to branch out to other languages
leont m: Numeric $a = 1
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/W9aMZsrmtH␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/W9aMZsrmtH:1␤------> 3Numeric7⏏5 $a = 1␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ statement modifier␤ …»
leont m: Numish $a = 1
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/1y51_BYNcC␤Variable '$a' is not declared␤at /tmp/1y51_BYNcC:1␤------> 3Numish 7⏏5$a = 1␤»
leont m: my Numeric $a = 1
camelia ( no output )
perigrin diakopter: I see quite a bit from my "haven't really used Perl6 much" standing point. The syntax of both flows from a simlar mind.
hoelzro Quom__: I think taking inspiration from other languages would be a step in the right direction
Juerd Numeric. Thanks! :)
perigrin The object systems (if you accept Moose) are somewhat similar in a cursory way ...
timotimo leont: Numeric or Real, the former will also accept Complex, but Real will not
Juerd Oh, I think I want Real. 23:15
Thank you too
leont still thinks Real is the wrong name
timotimo :)
leont: why?
Quom__ hoelzro: I'm certainly working on P6 related Rust things right now, but I don't know if that will go anywhere… certainly not in the 'translation' direction!
hoelzro interesting
lucasb It would be cool if literal numbers were 'polymorphic constants' like in Haskell, this way you would be able to assign an integer-looking literal to Num variables
leont In many languages, real means float
Quom__ lucasb: There are some issues related to that still today…
m: my Int $a = Inf
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot find method 'value'␤»
diakopter buggo
23:15 pdcawley left
Juerd leont: I'd have liked Num to be called Float, and Real Num, but the language is now out there so it doesn't matter anymore :) 23:15
Quom__ I don't remember what the verdict for that was
perigrin diakopter: If nothing else I'd argue that p6's objects and Moose are closer than JS and Moose. :)
23:15 rindolf left
Juerd keeps forgetting "my" when declaring typed variables. 23:15
hoelzro hah, I do that too!
Juerd I haven't done much C or C++ but apparently this did stick :)
lucasb well, one could argue that Inf and NaN should only be assignable to Nums. so I think an error 'Cannot assign a literal of type Num to a variable of type Int' would be the right outcome
diakopter too
RabidGravy This beer has been sitting in the kitchen scaring me since before christmas : "Beavertown Moose Fang, Armagnac Barrel Aged Imperial Brown Ale"
leont Yeah, me too, but that may be $day-job being C++
Juerd hoelzro: Apparently leont makes the same mistake. At least once, that is :)
Ah, more than once
hoelzro I thought about making a rakudo error to say "did you mean my Type $var?"
RabidGravy so now it's time
Juerd hoelzro: That would be a good move!
hoelzro but, like many things I think up, it remains NYI =/
stmuk__ RabidGravy: Dryuary?
dalek c: 53cfbdf | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod:
fix Hash adverb examples
c: 40e0d21 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | /:
Merge remote-tracking branch 'upstream/master'
c: 4fce87f | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod:
Merge pull request #329 from gfldex/master

fix Hash adverb examples
RabidGravy stmuk__, don't be silly now
Zoffix m: my Num $a = 42; say $a.Int
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Z2z2ivfbtx␤Cannot assign a literal of type Int (42) to a variable of type Num. You can declare the variable to be of type Real, or try to coerce the value with 42.Num or Num(42), or just write the value as 42…»
Skarsnik Int is not a subtype of Num?
leont Nope
timotimo that would be super weird 23:16
don't forget your liskov
lucasb lizmat: I was waiting [Coke] to say 'sure, go ahead and bump nqp' :) but I think he is AFK. but thanks for listening to me. maybe later you will bump nqp.
Juerd Int could be a subtype of Rat, I think, but that's not the case either
Zoffix Reported (␤Cannot find method 'value'␤») : rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=127207
Juerd Skarsnik: Num, being floating point, is a lossy container type.
Skarsnik How many bug did you found today Zoffix?
my Real $a = 42;
m: my Real $a = 42; 23:17
camelia ( no output )
23:17 CurtisOvidPoe joined
Zoffix Skarsnik, if RT didn't have such a POS of a user interface, I'd tell you :) 23:17
Skarsnik, probably 3-6
abraxxa thanks Wenzel!
lucasb huggable: how many bugs Zoffix found?
huggable lucasb, nothing found
CurtisOvidPoe p6: my @primes = grep { .is-prime }, 1 .. *; my @p = gather for 4000, 5, 100, 2000 -> $n { take start { @primes[$n] }; }; .say for await @p;
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«No such method 'is-prime' for invocant of type 'Any'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/tmpfile line 1␤␤»
Zoffix hugs huggable
leont Zoffix: it sends you emails, that way you can easily count
lucasb Zoffix++ just kidding :)
Zoffix leont, I delete those :)
abraxxa Skarsnik: and exactly that (Int not subtype of Num) made me not choosing Num
Juerd Hi CurtisOvidPoe
CurtisOvidPoe That segfaulted on my OS X El Capitan box.
leont There are two kinds of ticket systems, those that suck at web and those that suck at email
23:17 _nadim left
CurtisOvidPoe Hi Juerd! 23:17
Skarsnik abraxxa, notice that I used Real originaly in Pg I think xD 23:18
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travis-ci Doc build passed. Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer 'Merge pull request #328 from gfldex/master 23:18
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/100941713 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/42d74...6293b5e506
23:18 travis-ci left
gfldex \o/ 23:18
lizmat m: my @primes := grep { .is-prime }, 1 .. *; my @p = gather for 4000, 5, 100, 2000 -> $n { take start { @primes[$n] }; }; .say for await @p;
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding; expected Positional but got Seq␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/0Rmih6sVXJ line 1␤␤»
Juerd leont: These days, I favor those that suck at email but have a nice web interface. Used to be the other way around but I got more comfortable using web stuff since web interfaces improved.
abraxxa Skarsnik: gah! why is it 'user' and not 'username' in mysql?
Juerd Why does Seq not do Positional?
leont Because it's an iterator, essentially 23:19
CurtisOvidPoe And now I’m getting “This Seq has already been iterated, and its values consumed”
lizmat Juerd: what leont said
Juerd I see
Skarsnik abraxxa, No idea, ask the original author of dbiish or minidbiish x)
abraxxa we will normalise that too 23:20
Skarsnik tricky, we will need to keep username too
Zoffix my @primes = grep { .is-prime }, 1 .. 1000_0; my @p = gather for 4000, 5, 100, 2000 -> $n { take start { @primes[$n] }; }; .say for await @p;
m: my @primes = grep { .is-prime }, 1 .. 1000_0; my @p = gather for 4000, 5, 100, 2000 -> $n { take start { @primes[$n] }; }; .say for await @p;
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«(Any)␤13␤547␤(Any)␤»
Skarsnik I mean the other
Zoffix I get "(Any) Cannot invoke this object (REPR: Null)" on my box
diakopter that's a new one 23:21
oh, nm
Zoffix :S which doesn't happen on repeat attempts
leont Thread-safety is hard :-( 23:22
timotimo Zoffix: yeah, iterating over the same list from multiple threads at the same time is not going to be a good idea
Zoffix :(
CurtisOvidPoe I also get “/bin/bash: line 1: 95489 Segmentation fault: 11 perl6 int.p6” and “moar(95508,0x700000393000) malloc: *** error for object 0x7f94b6ad1400: double free” for the same code, depending on when I’ve run it.
timotimo Zoffix: were you expecting rakudo to do locking for you in that case? 23:23
CurtisOvidPoe timotimo: if the list was changing, yeah, but since there’s nothing changing it, I was curious about what would happen.
lizmat good night, #perl6!
timotimo ah, i didn't see it's your code
leont Nothing is changing on the outside
CurtisOvidPoe night, lizmat!
timotimo the list is resizing, which causes a realloc to happen
leont Given it's lazily calculated, it's definitely changing on the inside
CurtisOvidPoe It’s a weird case where one process might be trying to access a value that’s not yet been computed.
So it would be nice to have something that’s not a segfault there :) 23:24
timotimo our threading model is "if you do that, you'll get burned. so don't do that."
diakopter CurtisOvidPoe: email to rakudobug?
timotimo at least i think so.
diakopter oh, nm
Zoffix timotimo, I'm expecting to think as little as possible about doing things and instead wish to just receive results :) 23:25
timotimo mhm
i think jnthn had been wanting to put an improvement into our arrays so that it might be possible to perhaps have concurrent access not die, but i may be misremembering
Zoffix lucasb, I reported 27 bugs in total... 5 yesterday, 5 today :) 23:26
CurtisOvidPoe p6: class Foo { subset Limit of Rat where -10 .. 10; has Limit $.x is rw }; Foo.new( x => 15.0 );
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $!x; expected Foo::Limit but got Rat␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/tmpfile line 1␤␤»
abraxxa Skarsnik: almost there
Skarsnik where is the weekly that happend every 15 days? x)
CurtisOvidPoe That’s one where I would hope for a somewhat better error message :)
abraxxa Skarsnik: do you know whatfor the post-connect-callback for Pg is?
timotimo Skarsnik: next monday
diakopter I mean, there should be no penalty for such data structures to fall back to more heavyweight, fully-locking, or even optimized lock-free versions of themselves... when accessed from more than one thread. Jnthn & I talked through such things a few years ago........
timotimo the thing is that we don't want to pessimize all arrays everywhere to make concurrent resizing work out fine
diakopter see above ^
abraxxa Skarsnik: SET client_min_messages = warning
diakopter you don't have to pessimize in teh single thread case
23:26 cpage left
leont There's a reason why we have Supplies and Promises, those are actually thread-safe 23:27
timotimo right
yes, indeed
Zoffix CurtisOvidPoe, IIRC the issue there is not being able to do it at compile time.
diakopter yes it adds a check per call, but it's _tiny_ compared to everything else it does
leont OO:Monitor and OO::Actor can be quite useful too in some cases
Skarsnik abraxxa, no idea, sorry x)
Zoffix m: class Foo { has Rat $.x where -10 .. 10 }; Foo.new: :x(15.0);
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $!x; expected <anon> but got Rat␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/_LdyDiJnuE line 1␤␤»
Zoffix Same here.
lucasb Zoffix++ I appreciate your work finding bugs. 23:28
diakopter CurtisOvidPoe: I agree it shouldn't segfault, at least.
JVM's exception is ConcurrentModificationException
or something like that
23:29 Zoffix left, pochi_ joined, pochi left
timotimo the JVM has a crazy amount of awesomeness when it comes to "lock elision" 23:34
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timotimo if i understand it correctly, that's the reason why they can have locking everywhere for safety, but still have good performance 23:35
CurtisOvidPoe Night all. 23:37
23:37 CurtisOvidPoe left
timotimo the cross-thread-write log thing moar has probably catches that error 23:38
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travis-ci Doc build passed. Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer 'Merge pull request #329 from gfldex/master 23:38
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/100946004 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/fd629...ce87f4f19f
23:38 travis-ci left
abraxxa Skarsnik: pushed! 23:38
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abraxxa Skarsnik: going to bed now, ping me when you've looked at my work 23:51
23:51 cdg_ left
Skarsnik same. Good night #perl6 23:52
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abraxxa bye! 23:53
23:54 lucasb left, cdg left
zengargoyle m: ((1..69).pick(5).sort, (1..26).pick).say; 23:55
camelia rakudo-moar f1dd49: OUTPUT«((10 58 61 62 64) 7)␤»
23:56 cdg_ left

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