»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
AlexDaniel it's hard to tell 00:05
43 pages for the index
everything else is text and titles
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timotimo i bet the index has a hundred to a thousand lines of "methods inherited from Any" 00:14
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AlexDaniel timotimo: I don't see that :) 00:17
it does list things like “method Int” several times, but we have different description in each
but… just print to file from your browser and see yourself? :) 00:18
takes about a minute and ≈5MB of space
timotimo ladies and gentlemen ... three *hundred* megabytes ... of storage capacity 00:20
jeek That's enough to last a lifetime, and then some 00:22
timotimo what can this do for you? oh! the sky is the limit! 00:27
TEttinger pokemon are incredible creatures that share the world with humans 00:34
timotimo the message is violence 00:39
Geth doc: 27e4e38382 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Type/Num.pod6
Clarify coersion of ±Inf/NaN to Rational types

Rakudo impl: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/042cb7413f Spec: github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c3086244fd		 00:45
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Num
doc: 5fc5e83591 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Type/Rational.pod6
Document .Num coersion of zero-denominator Rationals
 00:46
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Rational
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Geth doc: 9b9b7576cb | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6
Use more precise wording in `eqv` docs
 01:24
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/operators
Geth doc: ef2a93b981 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6
Clarify `eqv` with zero-denominator Rationals

Rakudo impl: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c91bcc2afc Spec: github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9b69d9787c		 01:26
doc: 28599bde20 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6
Revert "Clarify `eqv` with zero-denominator Rationals"

This reverts commit ef2a93b9819ae2d2a520c561111a5718eded83ca.
Bugginess with zero-denomitor Rationals math got discovered[^1] and when it's fixed, it's possible there won't even be any zero-denominator Rationals that have numerators other than <1 -1 0>
  [1] irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6-dev/2017-...i_15635846		 01:41
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/operators
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manchicken Is there a good, practical example of having a multi-tiered module that all exports under the same namespace? 02:31
I don't want the POSIX module (which I suppose is now my project) all being one 200Mo file, I'd much rather it be cordoned off into functional areas.
Unfortunately, I can't find very good examples of robust package+export management. 02:32
I can neither confirm nor deny the volume of profanity produced by this situation.
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geekosaur much of the export management machinery is currently notional 02:39
as a result, what currently exists that does non-trivial export management is highly dependent on internal details, rather ugly and potentially fragile
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manchicken That does not make me confident as a module developer that I can use this... 02:47
Instead it makes me worry that I'm stuck with gigantic files.
I even define `EXPORT` functions, but still get things like: ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e 02:48
Error while importing from 'POSIX':
no EXPORT sub, but you provided positional argument in the 'use' statement
Zoffix manchicken: perhaps this would be of help: github.com/zoffixznet/debug/tree/m...t-transfer 02:49
manchicken: this bit in particular: github.com/zoffixznet/debug/blob/m...pm6#L6-L12
manchicken How are you always so helpful? 02:50
It's uncanny.
Zoffix \o/
manchicken No, seriously, you might want to find a doctor and have that looked at.
Zoffix :)
manchicken It's sure to cause you problems at some point in your life.
Man... Could not find symbol '&DEFAULT' 02:56
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Zoffix manchicken: you didn't export any subs (or exported them under some other tag than DEFAULT) 02:57
manchicken `is export` is === to `is export(:DEFAULT)`, no? 03:00
Zoffix Yeah 03:01
orr
m: sub foo is export(:DEFAULT) {}
camelia ( no output )
Zoffix yeah
manchicken OK.... still doesn't work. 03:02
Let me push this, maybe you can help me figure out where I'm stupid. 03:03
Zoffix, do you use Atom? 03:04
Zoffix Yes.
manchicken f666a786-0854-480a-b718-4b47faf4ccbd
Zoffix What's that? 03:05
manchicken I opened that for sharing.
You see the cell tower like icon in the lower right?
If you say "join portal" and put that UUID in there, I believe it will have you join my session.
Zoffix Nope
manchicken github.com/manchicken/perl6-posix-...efactoring 03:06
That, too.
This is the main module: github.com/manchicken/perl6-posix-...b/POSIX.pm
This is the module which defines the function: github.com/manchicken/perl6-posix-.../passwd.pm 03:07
Zoffix All I see FWIW; no celltowers: temp.perl6.party/snapshot3.png
manchicken And this is where I'm trying to use the function: github.com/manchicken/perl6-posix-...2-getuid.t
Zoffix manchicken: test passes for me: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/1a56246...1ec161664c 03:09
manchicken Do you have teletype enabled?
✔ ~/Devel/perl6-posix-1 [master|✚ 1…13] 03:10
22:02 $ perl6 -Ilib t/02-getuid.t
===SORRY!===
Could not find symbol '&DEFAULT'
Zoffix Don't even know what teletype is
manchicken: what's your perl6 -v ?
manchicken ✘-1 ~/Devel/perl6-posix-1 [refactoring|✔]
22:09 $ perl6 -v
This is Rakudo Star version 2017.10 built on MoarVM version 2017.10
implementing Perl 6.c.
Zoffix builds 2017.10 to try it out on there 03:11
manchicken Which version are you on? 03:13
Zoffix 2017.12.11
manchicken Oooh, aren't we fancy ;) 03:14
I just started sanitizing to ferment this belgian golden ale that I've almost certainly loused up on account of my export woes.
My yeast starter is alive, so I suppose it's not the end of the world. 03:15
As soon as yeast stop eating sugar, you know there's something wrong.
Oof, I'm updating `brew` on my OSX box, it's got an llvm update. 03:16
This should be interesting.
I'm using the version of rakudo which came with homebrew.
Zoffix Works on 2017.10 too: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/8adc511...63170f6be7
OSX vs Linux difference maybe?
manchicken Maybe? 03:17
Gosh I hope not.
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Zoffix Maybe someone here with OSX could test it tout 03:18
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Zoffix maybe try `rm -fr lib/.precomp/` and run it again; maybe some precomp issue vOv 03:19
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manchicken tries. 03:25
Didn't work. 03:26
Raspbian didn't work, either.
That's GNU/Linux. Different error, though.
manchicken@raspberryChicken ~/Devel/perl6-posix-1 $ perl6 -Ilib t/02-getuid.t
===SORRY!===
Could not find NativeCall in any of: /home/manchicken/Devel/perl6-posix-1/lib, /usr/lib/parrot/6.6.0/languages/perl6/lib, /usr/lib/parrot/6.6.0/languages/perl6
Zoffix No idea.
manchicken That's super old, though.
Geez, 2014.07. 03:27
Zoffix :S that's more than a year before first stable release
manchicken heh
manchicken updates raspbian. 03:31
I still don't know why this is happening on my mac... 03:44
Filesystem case sensitivity doesn't seem to be an issue. 03:45
Do you have any env vars?
Zoffix Does it fail on newer raspbian?
manchicken 22:34 $ env | grep PERL
PERL5LIB=/Users/manchicken/perl5/lib/perl5
PERL_MB_OPT=--install_base "/Users/manchicken/perl5"
PERL6LIB=.,./lib,
PERL_LOCAL_LIB_ROOT=/Users/manchicken/perl5
PERL_MM_OPT=INSTALL_BASE=/Users/manchicken/perl5
Checking for Raspbian updates.
I wouldn't think that we would have a breakage like this on OSX though.
I'm on the latest OSX.
Zoffix m: use Test; say Test::EXPORT::.keys 03:46
camelia (DEFAULT ALL)
Zoffix What does `perl6 --ll-exception -Ilib t/02-getuid.t` give ?
manchicken gist.github.com/manchicken/6d7c8c4...5c66a07461 03:48
I've deleted the precomp stuff. 03:49
Zoffix ohhh 03:50
I was running master branch :)
manchicken: you missed the '::EXPORT' portion 03:52
sub EXPORT { 03:53
Map.new: (
| POSIX::passwd::EXPORT::DEFAULT::,
| POSIX::time_h::EXPORT::DEFAULT::,
)
}
This works.... long enough to show you you got an error in sub sig 03:54
manchicken Oh. 03:55
Well poo
Did you just add that in your test? 03:56
I get a different error now, but it seems more useful
Zoffix manchicken: no, that's in POSIX. You got `POSIX::passwd::DEFAULT::` but it needs to be `POSIX::passwd::EXPORT::DEFAULT::`. Same for the other one 03:57
manchicken Yeah, I was just wondering if you took my sample verbatim from GitHub, or if you modified it to make it run. 04:09
Zoffix I cloned and fixed the code and it ran. The first time I just forgot to also switch to the branch and that's why I couldn't repro it 04:14
manchicken Boom.
I just pushed an update.
Zoffix TIL we have a Seq.from-loop() ... didn't see anyone mention it when Any.toggle() was being discussed. Look very similar 04:21
And toggle is neither tested nor documented 04:22
Zoffix ObligatoryWhiningAboutAddingFeaturesUsersWillNeverKnowAbout.cue
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Zoffix They're not similar actually; never mind. 04:31
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manchicken Sweet. 06:21
I have some of this working.
I can stat a file now!
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buggable New CPAN upload: PDF-Font-Loader-0.1.8.tar.gz by WARRINGD cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/W/WA/...1.8.tar.gz 08:18
New CPAN upload: PDF-Class-0.0.3.tar.gz by WARRINGD cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/W/WA/...0.3.tar.gz 08:28
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gfldex m: say so "½" ~~ /(\d+)/; say $0 11:13
camelia False
Nil
gfldex m: say so ½ ~~ /(\d+)/; say $0
camelia True
｢0｣
gfldex this is a wee bit confusing
m: say "½".uniprop; 11:14
camelia No
gfldex how do I say „Match a No“ in a Regex? 11:15
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CIAvash[m] m: say so "½" ~~ /(<:No>+)/; say $0 11:39
camelia True
｢½｣
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gfldex lolibloggedthelasttimethisyear: gfldex.wordpress.com/2017/12/31/ex...gg-timers/ 13:29
gfldex.wordpress.com/2017/12/31/ex...gg-timers/
lizmat gfldex++ 13:31
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pmurias Zoffix: features that aren't tested or documented sound like candidates for removal 15:05
timotimo toggle was just added this month, that's probably why it's neither tested nor documented. i think it was still being discussed how exactly it should work? maybe. i probably missed the last parts of the discussion 15:06
AlexDaniel that's right 15:14
fwiw “candidates for removal” is in many cases wishful thinking :) Many things are undertested, unfortunately 15:15
and even if so, we should first check the ecosystem, and perhaps guess if somebody is using the said features heavily… 15:16
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pmurias timotimo: if it's a new feature maybe we want to document/test it :) 15:21
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timotimo if it's untested we're free to kick it back out :P :P :P 15:38
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pmurias timotimo: isn't only stuff that's tested in 6.c (6.d in the future) safe from deletion? 15:40
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timotimo true i suppose 15:44
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ryn1x Do Perl6 arrays have O(1) read and O(n) insertion and lists O(n) read and O(1) insertion like their equivelantly named traditional data structures? I assume they are much more complicated than this, but do not see any performance information in the docs... 16:03
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geekosaur the only difference between Array and List is that Lists are immutable 16:18
(and as such have smaller constant factors on read but much slower insertion/update because a new List must be created) 16:19
(flip side of which is most of the List can be shared between copies because it's immutable, so again it's constant factor difference rather than big-O) 16:20
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geekosaur well, arguably modification is O(n) but a very fast O(n) 16:21
AlexDaniel` that depends on the backend, I think
you can have some reasonable expectations but you never know :)
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ryn1x Thanks geekosaur and AlexDaniel` 16:29
timotimo geekosaur: we don't actually share parts of lists between list objects 16:33
AlexDaniel` ryn1x: see this similar question on complexity of %my-hash.elems irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2017-11-16#i_15456401 16:34
timotimo what you haven't mentioned is that lists can be lazy, i.e. have a generator included in them
lizmat and that lists can have containers, so be mutable (apart from the number of elements in them) 16:36
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AlexDaniel` ryn1x: I like your question. I filed this doc ticket: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1726 16:42
quotable6: ‘O(n)’
quotable6 AlexDaniel`, OK, working on it! This may take up to three minutes (4469197 messages to process)
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quotable6 AlexDaniel`, gist.github.com/d1b749b273fad886c7...fb52763f86 16:43
timotimo and arrays can be native-typed and/or shaped 16:44
AlexDaniel`: how do we feel about quotable telling the first and last match (the date i mean) and how many lines were matched?
AlexDaniel` timotimo: feeling great, if only somebody worked on it! :) 16:45
timotimo :D
on well, i guess we'll never get that feature
geekosaur timotimo, more in the sense that objects are not cloned 16:46
timotimo didn't the results also show the nickname of who wrote something at one point?
geekosaur I didn;t mean list slice sharing / roping
wander Happy new year from China! Wish #perl6 having a better year ^_^ 16:47
tadzik what a bot!
timotimo happy new year, wander
AlexDaniel` timotimo: github.com/perl6/whateverable/issues/270
ryn1x AlexDaniel`: That would be a very nice table to have!
AlexDaniel` timotimo: no, it never did, unfortunately
timotimo: but it should be possible
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timotimo did we ever spec/test the order of results we get from the permutations iterator? 16:48
because there's one implementation of it - and i think it's the one bdf showed in his blog post? - where you can very efficiently skip ahead
AlexDaniel timotimo: interestingly, there's no information about the sender :D github.com/perl6/whateverable/blob...p6#L49-L54 16:49
but it can be uncommented here: github.com/perl6/whateverable/blob...irc.p6#L63
timotimo i wonder what the hack is for 16:50
AlexDaniel filed it here: github.com/perl6/whateverable/issues/271 16:51
timotimo: haha, $hack⚛++ :D
timotimo: long story short, it greps through messages as if you were running a snippet 16:52
timotimo: and it does that in parallel for every channel
timotimo oh, that's neat
AlexDaniel but because there's some extra logic that unarchives builds, it may wipe out the perl6 binary and everything
timotimo do you have an idea how much time is spent json decoding in the fetch-irc script? 16:53
wander timotimo: thank you
AlexDaniel so to ensure that things don't lock on each other, $hack variable adds ^ characters to HEAD :D
so it will process different channels with builds on HEAD, HEAD^, HEAD^^, HEAD^^^… :)
timotimo jesus christ that's a hack!
AlexDaniel timotimo: I don't remember how much time is spent there, the script runs once and takes a few minutes 16:54
timotimo you see, i just got into messagepack a little, and it has the vast benefit over json that strings don't have to be escaped; they have a length prefix instead
AlexDaniel timotimo: but quotable6 does not use that script. The script generates a null-separated data file and quotable greps through that
that's the only way I managed to get it reasonably fast
timotimo yeah, i saw that
how is the data updated? 16:55
AlexDaniel right now I just run it manually… you can ssh to the server and run maintenance/fetch-irc.p6 and see what happens :) 16:56
this will also add all of the recent messages, so please do :D
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timotimo i'll put in a little bit of timing information if that's all right 16:57
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AlexDaniel sure 16:57
timotimo i wonder if it should race for @CHANNELS :) 16:58
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AlexDaniel probably not, no need to hog up the cpu 17:04
timotimo running it now 17:07
Skipping 2017-11-14 because of JSON issues don't understand escape sequence '\m' at 19581 17:08
huh.
i wonder what that's about
AlexDaniel there's a file right there for 2017-11-14
so you should be able to open it for inspection 17:09
there were several files like this, but most of them were really old so I never cared
2017-11-14 is rather unfortunate
it's probably good that *you* are looking at it :D 17:10
timotimo it's working really hard 17:19
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AlexDaniel timotimo: with the current rakudo it may run out of ram… :) 17:22
timotimo i don't think it's terribly wise to keep the whole data around before spurting it into the file all at once
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AlexDaniel restarted some bots to free some ram 17:22
timotimo maybe we should @msgs = @msgs.join("\0\0") every ~10k lines or so 17:23
you just reswapped the machine? 17:24
AlexDaniel yea
timotimo moves over to #whateverable
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timotimo moritz: the irclog server gives us HTML for some pages when Accept: application/json is sent; maybe there's a cache that needs to be flushed? i get that behaviour for #moarvm logs between 2013-05-31 and 2013-11-03 18:04
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Zoffix pmurias: removal of such features seems the most unjustified of options. I rather the devs that implement them treat the testing and documentation all as part of implementing the feature. They're the best qualified to do so. Especially when extending features of already-documented routines. For example, I see neither .tail() nor .head() docs mention you could use a Callable as an argument. So the dev spent $X 18:32
amount of time writing all that code and the end result is the manjority of Perl 6 programmers aren't even aware that feature exists.
Hence the title of my whining: what's the point of implementing features users will never know about
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lizmat Zoffix: one of the reasons I have stopped implementing tests, is that they then become part of the spec 18:37
and for features for which we're not sure yet, that's a bad thing
fwiw, I've had to remove tests from roast in the past when a feature I implemented was reverted 18:38
so I just stopped doing that
Zoffix In fact, just made Z-Script clone doc repo along with the rest, to make a point
huggable: z-script
huggable Zoffix, Helper script for Rakudo Perl 6 core development: github.com/zoffixznet/z
Zoffix lizmat: it's Open Source. You're free to do your way IMO. My whining isn't directed to any particular dev for a reason :) 18:39
lizmat I know, and I don't feel offended or anything like that
I'm just stating the reason why *i* don't immediately write tests anymore 18:40
AlexDaniel lizmat: sorry, what's the problem of tests becoming part of the spec?
like, why is it bad?
lizmat well, if the feature is removed, you also need to remove the tests
AlexDaniel and why is that a problem? 18:41
lizmat it means you've done twice as much work for nothing, instead of only once
AlexDaniel ahhh… I see now
Zoffix \o 18:44
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Perl6 Hi guys 19:17
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Perl6 Are there any open source Perl6 projects for a beginner to read and try to contribute to> 19:19
AlexDaniel awww what a great question 19:22
I wish one day I'd be able to suggest github.com/perl6/whateverable/, but as of today it's really hard to run it yourself
Perl6 Ah, IRC bots. Finally I will be able to automate asking annoying questions on IRC channels! 19:23
Thanks, I'll have a look
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TimToady .tell ryn1x we don't do Lisp-style cons lists by default because the head/tail model is bad for parallel processing of lists, so we keep them at a higher abstraction level; however, you can make tail-sharing lists if you like by using => for cons (it's even right associative for that reason) 19:47
yoleaux TimToady: I'll pass your message to ryn1x.
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Perl6 AlexDaniel: I'm a bit confused about what the Whateverable is. In the wiki, it says it's a collection of IRC bots, but then the individual help pages have bots with a large variety of features, that don't really seem like IRC bots? 20:04
timotimo well, they are all in here :) 20:07
Perl6: any one in particular you're interested in?
Perl6 timotimo: Well, reportable has a few commands listed as "low hanging fruit," so that's probably the best one to start with :) 20:08
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Perl6 Oh, I see, so you issue commands to bots through an IRC client 20:11
timotimo yup
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Herby_ o/ 20:14
Geth doc: cd2216f441 | (Jeremy Studer)++ | doc/Language/quoting.pod6
Distinguish between qqww and « » quoting

The "Word quoting with interpolation and quote protection" section previously stated that qqww and « » are equivalent. Changing that to indicate that, while very similar, « » will create allomorphs while qqww will not by default.		 20:15
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/quoting
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TimToady it's equiv to qq:ww:v actually 20:36
(v for the val function, which is what creates allomorphs) 20:37
jstuder TimToady: do you think I should explicitly state that in that section
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jstuder documentation for :v is on the page 20:38
just much further up
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jstuder it does seem like a good idea, now that you mention it 20:40
TimToady has no strong opinion either way
it might help some people, and get in the way of other people
jstuder maybe in a one sentence blurb? 20:41
TimToady or a parenthetical remark
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jstuder ok I'll mention it but as unobtrusively as I can 20:42
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travis-ci Doc build errored. Jeremy Studer 'Distinguish between qqww and « » quoting 21:05
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/323660330 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/28599...2216f4412d
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buggable [travis build above] ✓ All failures are due to: timeout (1 failure). 21:05
manchicken OK, so the constant writer being missing is problematic. 21:15
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AlexDaniel so I went cycling a little bit exactly at midnight… and now I've seen butterfly fireworks (????) 22:41
yoleaux 21:25Z <Zoffix> AlexDaniel: perhaps the todo-fudged versions should be removed from the spec? The `$/` is a proper Perl 6 var. The rest... I dunno... the Perl5-ism errors only ever hurt me not helped me; I think the fewer of them we have the better. If I write `$+` it usually means I meant `$++` and I don't want it suggesting some crap from some other language...
21:25Z <Zoffix> AlexDaniel: github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0a1d...dddfe0b869
AlexDaniel this went along with smiley face fireworks, which was cool as well 22:42
but butterflies were actually doing some wing flapping which was done by lights going brighter and dimmer periodically
looking now on youtube, there's no video of that 22:43
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AlexDaniel lots of videos for smiley faces though 22:47
manchicken I'm writing a poor-man's constant writer for the POSIX module. 22:50
Thinking it might make more sense to have a program which writes a Perl module, kinda like what I'm doing in Fcntl. 22:52
If I like this approach better, I may export that to its own module.
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Perl6 Hey guys I copied the code from Bisectable.p6, but I realised that I don't have the dependencies (where it says "use ...") How can I get these? 23:02
gfldex bisectable6: source 23:04
bisectable6 gfldex, github.com/perl6/whateverable
gfldex Perl6: see github.com/perl6/whateverable/tree/master/lib
Perl6: and modules.perl6.org/ 23:05
Perl6 Thanks
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timotimo happy new year to the UTC+1 folk :) 23:16
AlexDaniel Perl6: feel free to join #whateverable for more info 23:18
Perl6: in fact, the thing about bisectable bot is that it needs thousands of rakudo builds to operate properly 23:19
Perl6: and the easiest way to work with it, in that regard, is to just do the development on the server it runs on
Perl6: if you're interested, let me know your ssh key and I'll give you access
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Geth whateverable: 0532012f7f | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | META6.json
META6.json file

So that you can do this to install dependencies:
   zef install --deps-only .		 23:22
AlexDaniel Perl6: see this ↑
Perl6: if you pull now, you should be able to do `zef install --deps-only .` in whateverable repo, and that'll install the deps 23:23
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Perl6 AlexDaniel: Thanks, I'll pull now 23:29
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Perl6 AlexDaniel: Also, sounds cool, I'll be sure to check in to the #whateverable channel, but I don't really want the server access. Thanks for the offer though. 23:38
AlexDaniel quotable6: 'in Perl 6 please' 23:43
quotable6 AlexDaniel, OK, working on it! This may take up to three minutes (4482999 messages to process)
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quotable6 AlexDaniel, gist.github.com/5deaff2f5621da0aa7...0f4eac8f57 23:44
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