»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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AlexDaniel releasable6: next 00:25
releasable6 AlexDaniel, Next release in 3 days and ≈18 hours. Blockers: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues?q=...%9A%A0%22. Unknown changelog format
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Geth doc: 57dfea7a32 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | xt/words.pws
learn plural
 01:27
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Geth doc: 006eccc73d | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | xt/examples-compilation.t
Reduce number of warnings.

We redirect $*ERR, but these warnings come up at too low a level to be skipped that way.
  Zoffix++ for providing the solution.		 01:39
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shinobi-cl Hi all 03:42
r: subset Pos of Int where 1 .. *; class C { has @.arr; method new(@a) { return self.bless(arr => @a) }; method AT-POS(::?CLASS:D: Int $row) {return @.arr[$row - 1];} }; my $c = C.new([1,2,3]); say $c[1]; 03:43
camelia 1
shinobi-cl r: subset Pos of Int where 1 .. *; class C { has @.arr; method new(@a) { return self.bless(arr => @a) }; method AT-POS(::?CLASS:D: Pos $row) {return @.arr[$row - 1];} }; my $c = C.new([1,2,3]); say $c[1];
camelia 1
shinobi-cl oh, well... that went different than i expected :) 03:44
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lookatme r: subset Pos of Int where * >= 1; class C { has @.arr; method new(@a) { return self.bless(arr => @a) }; method AT-POS(::?CLASS:D: Pos $row) {return @.arr[$row - 1];} }; 04:43
camelia ( no output )
lookatme r: subset Pos of Int where * >= 1; class C { has @.arr; method new(@a) { return self.bless(arr => @a) }; method AT-POS(::?CLASS:D: Pos $row) {return @.arr[$row - 1];} }; my $c = C.new([1,2,3]); say $c[1];my $c = C.new([1,2,3]); say $c[1];
camelia Potential difficulties:
Redeclaration of symbol '$c'
at <tmp>:1
------> 3 my $c = C.new([1,2,3]); say $c[1];my $c7⏏5 = C.new([1,2,3]); say $c[1];
1
1
Potential difficulties:
Redeclaration of symbol '$c'
at <tmp>:1
------> 3 my $c = C.new([1,2,3]); say $c[1];my $c7⏏5 = C.new([1,2,3]); say $c[1];
1
1
lookatme .tell shinobi-cl the type constraints should be `where * >= 1` 04:45
yoleaux lookatme: I'll pass your message to shinobi-cl.
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wbiker Hi all 06:03
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wbiker I have got a hash and want to check certain hash keys for existence. My problem is the hash key names can be upper and/or lower case. My approach would be to go through the hash and create a new hash with all key names in lowercase. Then I can be sure that I find all keys I am looking for doesn't matter if there are in upper or lowe case. Is there another way? 06:06
AlexDaniel wbiker: what about normalizing your keys before adding something to the hash? 06:07
there are other ways, but that's the most obvious thing I could expect from the code 06:08
if you need to preserve the original string, put it into the value 06:09
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wbiker AlexDaniel: Thanks for helping. Good point. Too easy probably :-) But I have to check how this hash is build. It is not my module. It is LWP::Simple. And the hash is the response_header hash with the header names as keys. Has to check wher and what builds it 06:16
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[Coke] m: my %hash = <this 1 THAT 2 OTHer 3>; say %hash.keys.first: *.fc eq 'other' 06:37
camelia OTHer
[Coke] If you can't control them going in, you can use something like that to search for a match. (for a small hash, probably fine)
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wbiker Thanks coke. I'll try that 06:38
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buggable New CPAN upload: PDF-Class-0.0.6.tar.gz by WARRINGD cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/W/WA/...0.6.tar.gz 06:52
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tbrowder is there work underway to make a cpan frontend for perl 6 similar to metacpan? 11:50
jnthn I suspect the most likely way to get to that will be evolving modules.perl6.org over time 11:51
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tbrowder sounds like a plan! thnx 11:52
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lizmat I think tyil and Zoffix are working on that? 11:54
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tyil n-nani 12:09
oh
lizmat noonina? 12:14
masak in UTC maybe. here it's more one o'clock-ina 12:15
tbrowder looking at the current modules listing for my modules caused me to file an issue on modules.perl6.org: travis status doesn’t show their true status.
jkramer Are you aware of any "code challenge" websites that support P6 for practicing/learning? 12:40
You know, that kind of website where you get a challenge and some input and then you implement the solution in a language of your choice (on the website), the run the code and if the output is correct (usually using several different test cases to avoid cheating) you pass. 12:41
lizmat something like rosettacode.org/wiki/Rosetta_Code ? 12:43
DrForr I think he's talking more along the lines of hackerrank? 12:44
code-golf.io/ is a different thing among the same vein, but it does in fact support Perl6. Disclaimer: I've only used hackerrank. 12:45
AlexDani` is still wondering how it's possible to get evil numbers down to 25 freaking characters 12:47
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jkramer DrForr: Yeah I know codingame.com which is nice, but they only have P5. 12:51
Thanks I'll check out code-golf.io 12:52
buggable New CPAN upload: P5tie-0.0.6.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.6.tar.gz
tbrowder looking at code-golf.io it looks like p6 is showing off very well!
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DrForr tbrowder: Yes, rather. 12:54
tbrowder i just removed the “?branch=master” from my github README.md file in the hope that will change the travis statuses to a green check. how often does modules.perl6.org run its module checks? 12:55
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lizmat tbrowder: if it's about the module space: I don't think it has anything to do with that 12:59
it's simple a link to an image on the travis-ci.org site, isn't it ?
*simply
jkramer Shouldn't "rakudobrew build moar" get me the latest version? I just did and it built something, but I'm still on 2017-07, even though list-available has 2017-12 listed. 13:01
Do I need to `switch` or anything?
tbrowder yes, maybe, but i looked at one of zoffix’s modules that shows a travis green check and his readme.md had a slightly different syntax: no branch soecification. 13:02
*spec. my status on github shows green, but on modules shows not setup. 13:03
jkramer Oh nice, made it on #4 on code-golf.io's "divisors" challenge on the first try :D 13:06
buggable New CPAN upload: Tie-Hash-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz 13:12
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AlexDaniel red tasks are also relatively easy in terms of getting into the top 13:34
because nobody bothers to try them :D
jkramer Damn now I too want to see how nwellhof did evil numbers in 25 chars :D 13:36
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tbrowder um, looking at the code in modules* my “fix” i don’t think changed anything. i’m going to force a rebuild and see if anything changes. 13:36
jkramer This is the shortest I can come up with: (^51).grep({.fmt('%b')~~m:g/1/%%2})>>.say 13:39
teatime I'm terrible at golf but I love watching y'all do it.
AlexDaniel jkramer: well why not just .base(2)
jkramer AlexDaniel: Ha, another method I didn't know about :)
lizmat clickbaits www.perl.com/article/an-open-lette...community/ 13:40
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buggable New CPAN upload: Tie-StdArray-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz 13:42
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tbrowder i just looked at travis and at least four of my modules rebuilt and passed.i’k 13:44
i’ll check modules status later to see if that made any diff.
AlexDaniel very interesting post 13:51
lizmat AlexDaniel: thank you :-) 13:52
El_Che "Place a moratorium on new features, with development confined to maintenance on the current runtime." <-- pretty sure some people spilt some coffee :)
lizmat El_Che: to some people who would have spilt coffee over that, they knew this was coming 13:53
I've circulated drafts of this post to many people in the Perl community for the past month or so 13:54
El_Che that's pretty my the last discussion on p5P
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El_Che s/my // 13:55
DrForr I haven't had a chance to read that deeply; will do that when I get back to my desk. 13:56
leont The general mood at the top of p5p can be summarized to "why can't we have nice things", but generally speaking almost any new language feature since Larry left has been a failure, except two or three minor ones (defined or, s///r and perhaps say)
Not trying too hard on the new features wouldn't be a bad thing in my book, though I would love to get usable signatures. 13:57
rjbs I use signatures every day and they are terrific.
Also postfix dereferencing. 13:58
Also lexical subroutines.
timotimo i use signatures every day, too, but i use only perl 6 :P
lizmat rjbs o/
AlexDaniel lizmat: does it mean that you're -1 on things like github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1356 because it kinda goes the opposite way from what the post is talking about? 13:59
rjbs lizmat: o/
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pmurias what is an STR on Match supposed to be (as opposed to a Str method)? 14:01
AlexDaniel I'm just thikinking that we've been doing some changes lately (for mostly technical reasons?) that are pushing towards the break-off from perl 5, and the article talks about uniting both languages in a way… hmm 14:02
thikinking, yes…
lizmat AlexDaniel: working on a comment to the issue
timotimo pmurias: maybe it's for nqp interoperability? 14:03
or perhaps just an internal helper method that we didn't want to make private
AlexDaniel lizmat: other related things: github.com/perl6/6.d-prep/issues/3...-355111122 github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1705 14:04
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leont p5 on nqp sounds interesting, but the different memory model sounds like a PITA, even without the lack of XS (I know cpython versus jpython also had this issue) 14:08
lizmat leont: could you elaborate ? 14:09
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leont refcounting versus gc, basically 14:09
pmurias the lack of reference counting means that DESTROY is called at different times
lizmat yup, there's that
AlexDaniel lizmat: fwiw maybe I'm misreading but that ticket is about these variables only: github.com/perl6/roast/blob/1f54bd...#L195-L207 14:10
leont RAII patterns are quite common in perl, even when people aren't used to think about it in those terms (in particular, people assume they don't need to close their filehandlers)
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AlexDaniel lizmat: so it's not about getting rid of *all* p5 error messages, just the ones about variables. But the direction we are going with this is kinda … worrying in terms of the blog post? :) 14:12
pmurias lizmat: btw fglock had some interest in having Perlito5 target QAST when I last talked him at TPC::EU
lizmat yeah, I mean to contact fglock soon again: it's been too long since we got together :-) 14:13
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lizmat AlexDaniel: I would be in favour of removing the $^A..$^Z ones: they aren't really used in Perl user code much, afaik 14:16
and they could create false positives on the auto-generating signature cases in Perl 6 14:17
aka: -> { $^A cmp $^B }
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moritz m: -> { $^A cmp $^B } 14:20
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unsupported use of $^A variable; in Perl 6 please use Form module
at <tmp>:1
------> 3-> { $^A7⏏5 cmp $^B }
moritz m: -> { $^a cmp $^b } 14:21
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Placeholder variable '$^a' cannot override existing signature
at <tmp>:1
------> 3<BOL>7⏏5-> { $^a cmp $^b }
lizmat moritz: ah, duh :-) 14:22
aka: { $^A cmp $^B }
m: { $^A cmp $^B }
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unsupported use of $^A variable; in Perl 6 please use Form module
at <tmp>:1
------> 3{ $^A7⏏5 cmp $^B }
lizmat m: { $^a cmp $^b }
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of "cmp" in expression "$^a cmp $^b" in sink context (line 1)
Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 0
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
AlexDaniel this thing about the Form module is the worst
lizmat yeah, I don't think we're going to port that 14:23
sorry Tux
scimon lizmat: Very nice read. :) 14:24
lizmat scimon: thank you 14:25
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lizmat fwiw: modules for the CPAN Butterfly Plan so far: modules.perl6.org/t/CPAN5 14:25
scimon So the goal is for the replacement modules to be as close as possible (barring syntax differences like -> to . and $a) to the P5 versions? 14:31
lizmat the goal is that the API is as close as possible
inside a ported module all bets are off 14:32
buggable New CPAN upload: Tie-StdHash-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz
scimon Yes, sorry I meant the API. :)
lizmat then we're on the same page
scimon I'm still trying to work out time to look at WWW::Mechanize. As it's in my wheelhouse but it's also kinda massive. 14:33
lizmat yeah, it *is* pretty big 14:34
lizmat hopes someone else will take that on so she wouldn't have to :-) 14:35
scimon Well I have made a small start. And the recent Test module I did was made for it. I'm... mulling at the moment. 14:37
lizmat ++scimon 14:38
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timotimo is WWW::Mechanize even useful nowadays? it doesn't do JS on its own, right? or is it just a front-end API module and you slot in webkit or something anyway? 14:40
scimon It does not it's pure HTML link following and form posting. But apparently lots of people like it and I saw it mentioned here a few weeks ago some one said "I tried to get a friend to use Perl6 but they wouldn't becuase WWW:Mechanize" didn't exist. 14:42
leont People use it. Not all of the web has fallen to the insanity of javascript frameworks yet
DrForr ::Firefox handles most of those needs.
scimon Also... well it can be quite good for testing none js based sites. (I've never really used it directly except in test suites). 14:43
DrForr I've got the outline of a Spreadsheet:: module that needs finishing, but then what module *doesn't*?
scimon The ones that aren't used any more? 14:45
Getting the DBI and DBIc stuff in place and up to scratch would be another good one. 14:46
lizmat yeah, fortunately, DBIx::Class is almost completely PurePerl
tbrowder lizmat: love the plan, and two of my modules are ports of all or part of p5 modules. 14:51
lizmat tbrowder: please add the CPAN5 tag to your META6.json then :-) 14:58
afk for a few hours&
tbrowder wilco 15:00
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El_Che it's interesting as an upgrade plan for Perl 5, but I wonder if you don't end up with a lot of anti-patterns instead of a more Perl6-ideomatic way of doing things. Will you end up with P5:: and P6:: competings modules? 15:09
scimon So... in my ongoing quest to try out all the different things you can do with Signatures I seem to have hit a wall. If there anyway of looking at the values in self within a method signature? (Which... is kind of bonkers I know but I've tried alll the sane things) 15:10
El_Che: One would hope that the P5 versions would be phased out. Possibly you could pin a version and say "This is the last version who's API is based on the Perl5 module) and then start iterating. 15:11
El_Che If the P5 version is stable & feature complete (otherwise people won't use it), I don't see that happening 15:12
DrForr scimon: You can look at the signature that someone's called you with - my App::Prancer does something like that. 15:13
You also can't guarantee that the person that wants to do a fully Perl6 version and the person that did the Perl5 version are the same, and have the same approach. I'd be for cordoning them off in a Perl5:: namespace, or possibly even adding a tag like :version<> or :from<>, maybe :api<Perl5> that can be grep'ed for straightforwardly. 15:15
scimon (On the method sig thing I finally worked out how to do what I wanted to do) multi method do-thing( $self where ! $self.test: ) { note "Skipping this won't work"; } ) 15:17
El_Che I am curious about lizmat's porting guidelines. Is the API kept? Would the naming of functions be identical to perl5 and alien to perl6? What about signatures or threading?
DrForr Or even that Perl5 modules will be worked on before the Perl6 implementation. 15:18
scimon Well I think we partly want to wait for the mentioned document ;)
El_Che I started working on a Net::LDAP port some time ago (stranded because of acute shortage of time), and I had this questions all the time in the back of my head 15:19
the other idea in the back in my head was "wouldn't it be easier just to bind to the C library?" 15:20
DrForr And I'd really like to get started on Excel read/write, even though I really have no desire to work with spreadsheets, this is only because I see so many places still using them.
scimon Spreadsheets are never going away. 15:21
DrForr And that I'd want definitely to use a 6-inspired API, possibly with a ::Perl5 module below to act as a shi.
*shim
scimon (Excel going away would be nice)
Because as a document format all the xls versions are horrible. 15:24
timotimo oi, spreadsheets are amazing 15:27
the way they empower people doesn't compare to anything else
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DrForr And FWIW when someone asked me at TPC::Amsterdam what module they could write I immediately said Spreadsheet::WriteExcel. 15:29
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pmurias re porting over Perl 5 modules with old APIs, why would we want to do that? 15:29
El_Che pmurias: if I follow lizmat's view to facilitate a straight migration 15:30
stmuk_ what was the reason (other than programmer time) "v5" stalled? I recall vaguely something to do with "goto"?
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moritz does there need to be any reason except programmer time/motivation? 15:32
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El_Che moritz: it's presented as a march direction to unite the communities 15:32
stmuk maybe it was something to do with labels in tests?
yoleaux 12 Jan 2018 14:44Z <lizmat> stmuk: is the "iniside" in the "title "Perl 6 Iniside Out" of the syndication of Shitov's blog post intentional or a typo ?
El_Che moritz: not as a an "itch"
moritz Pugs was the march direction for Perl 6, and it stalled when audreyt left 15:33
pmurias moritz: that's a serious enough obstacle, but it's also interesting if there is a more technical obstacle
El_Che moritz: true
DrForr One benefit might be that you find people more willing to port existing modules where they have code to translate rather than have to make up new code... 15:34
El_Che DrForr: the langs are different enough that you'll end transposing instead of porting 15:35
scimon I've loved spreadsheets since I first saw visicalc.
DrForr I'm trying to gloss over that :) (Remember, I *did* write Perl::ToPerl5 :) )
s/5/6/;
(damnit) 15:36
El_Che lol
pmurias DrForr: porting over codes (regardless if it's from Perl 5/Ruby/etc) makes sense what I'm questioning is the need to have botha Perl 5 flavored and a Perl 6 flavored variants of APIs
stmuk I think perl6 was supposed (originally) to be able to use perl5 cpan modules
El_Che pmurias: that was also my question (with the addition that we may end up with old style api's and/or antipatterns in a Perl 6 context) 15:37
DrForr Liz did point out 'use v5;'.
El_Che stmuk: perl 6 was supposed to be the next version of perl 5 as well :)
pmurias El_Che: Perl 6 can use perl 5 modules with Inline::Perl5 15:38
El_Che pmurias: I know, and while I admire the effort and result, it's a road I don't want in my project 15:40
pmurias: (with a SRE/architect/the-guy-that-deploys hat)
DrForr "I am the one who deploys."</heisenberg> 15:41
stmuk perl6advent.wordpress.com/2013/12/16/ # The main missing pieces that hurt are:
labels and goto/barewords and pseudo filehandles
etc
El_Che perl 6 stack is complex enough, you don't want to manage perl5 , python and ruby stack on the same project 15:42
DrForr More modules are fine, and I'm for whatever gets more into the ecosystem. I think the overarching problem is that we simply don't have the application base yet. The cruelty is that smaller modules are easier to talk about, and you as the author don't have to use them in anger, as it were. 15:44
El_Che Well, more than once I looked at Perl 6 and Golang for a project and I ended with Perl 5. There is no way I'll add complexity to a project by managing perl 5 in perl 6 or play with C bidings in go. 15:46
(ending with Perl 5 was not a bad thing for me, but I wanted to try new things)
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tbrowder it would helpful to create a category in the most-wanted module list for things the experts believe is needed to make Perl 6 able to be the go-to language for advanced users and uses. 15:48
El_Che cro is a nice addition now that micro services are in. It could result in an ecosystem like it was the case with Mojo 15:49
stmuk I don't think "v5" works anymore anyway .. or didn't last time I looked 15:50
DrForr Right, so Inline::Perl5 isn't a long-term solution. Agreeing on that; and I think the problem (again, having delved into it) is that the two languages have diverged enough that there really isn't a simple migration track. XS needs to be rewritten (I.E. scrapped and maybe simplified), and there are too many gotchas lurking in trying to mechanically transate 5 => 6 that you'd be rewriting the 5 compiler.
El_Che DrForr: Inline::Perl5 is not a short-time solution either imho. It's cool, nice, but not something I would give a green light for production. 15:51
(I would totally use it locally, though)
of course, maybe other people look at it differently 15:52
DrForr Perl::ToPerl6 goes through the motions of translationg operators and basic accesses, but what it leaves behind you'd have to know Perl 6 in order to see the intent, so I don't think it's a viable route.
Now, one thought that *does* come to mind with PPR (I had some other issues that I hit with PPI that haven't been fixed to my knowledge) it might be possible to at least start a cross-compiler, leaving behind blocks that can't be translated in comments rather than just leaving them in-situ for the poor programmer to puzzle out. 15:54
El_Che DrForr: Inline::Perl5 is part of the category "I-really-really-want-to-use-Perl6-for-this-project" instead of "Perl 6 is a really good fit for this problem"
DrForr Yeah, "I've gotta have module X to do this, the rest I can do in 6" or something similar? 15:55
And I wouldn't be deploying it in a mixed environment either, FWIW.
scimon The stuff lizmat has done so far is interesting. I was looking through List::Utils (which generally you don't *need* in Perl6) and I can see the use of being able to Take a script that uses it in Perl5 and just drop that in. 16:03
Tie's too. Pesky things but used in a lot of places.
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DrForr scimon: Yes, if you're doing an automatic translator it helps to not have to translate idioms from List::Util over to raw perl6 code and run risks. 16:07
One nice precursor to have might be code that looks at a block of Perl 5 code and properly creates inline #`(..) comments to surround it, because of how 5 and 6 use (){}[] differently. One less thing to worry about when transliterating. 16:10
Having a P6 version of PPR would be too much to ask, I fear, especially knowing how radically different the RE engines are.
El_Che The question (I don't have an answer) is of people will convert old and big codebases 16:12
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scimon Well.... many of the big old codebases I know of are under constant work. And people are moving away from monoliths and stuff. If you can write a new part of a system in Perl6 but use existing data sources that would be a win. 16:14
DrForr If it's old and big, then I'm not sure what we can do to mitigate, because quite often the answer will be simply to scrap it and rewrite. At which point the question is "rewrite it in what?" And perl6 won't come up, because Python or Go or whatever. 16:15
Having a tool that'll rewrite 5 to 6 in an enterprise-ready fashion will help, but the cost/benefit ratio for the person that does it... 16:16
El_Che scimon: yes, and you write that in ideomatic perl 6
scimon: or in whatever lang you want for your micro service
DrForr Cro then is sthe system you'd want to push for that, at least in p6, I'd think. 16:17
El_Che that's tbrowder's remark: what is needed to make cro more useful
DrForr Once I get finished with the bloody talks I'll dive into PPR, I suppose.
Hometime, have fun. 16:19
scimon You too
El_Che bye DrForr 16:20
scimon My potential free coding time is going to be impacted for a while as I have 50 odd save the date cards to address. I can no longer avoid the guest list. 16:24
El_Che scimon: price of being to popular :) 16:25
scimon got to find all the addresses. I suck at this kind of thing. 16:26
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moritz scimon: do you have a wedding coming up? :-) 16:27
scimon Aye
moritz scimon: my congratulations! :-)
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scimon Cheers. Of course now I have to help plan it. 16:29
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[Coke] felicitations! 17:10
El_Che scimon: can you script the planning? 17:11
scimon Trying too... mostly I'm going "Here is a pile of money" and running away. But apparently I need to list actual people I know who I would like to be there. 17:12
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Geth perl6-lwp-simple: wbiker++ created pull request #23:
Change retrieving header names to lowercase		 17:32
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El_Che lizmat: Calm before the storm? I haven't seen many people with torches yet 17:47
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stmuk maybe someone should stir up the reddit hordes? 18:09
maybe not
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stmuk oh they have the pitchforks out there already 18:11
El_Che stmuk: it's a new narrative, to be fair 18:14
stmuk there doesn't seem much understanding of what's proposed 18:15
El_Che really? I see it more as opposing to the proposal (from a p5 point of view) than misunderstanding 18:16
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stmuk more relevant attacks would have mentioned Ponie :) 18:27
Ulti is there a nice way to create a native shaped array with a default value? 18:29
so instead of zeroed out its some other value
timotimo Ulti: i know that Buf offers this feature, don't think NSA does 18:31
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Ulti maybe I should just use a buf8 then 18:40
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lizmat has read it on www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/7r1...community/ 19:09
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lizmat expected responses from the usual suspects, I would say 19:10
FWIW, it does seem that the daughter meme is catching on :-)
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DrForr Great, now I have to rewrite my script :) 19:12
Ven``
.oO( it's ok, we have a butterfly meme as well )
lizmat at least nobody put it on Hacker News yet :-) 19:15
Ven`` I'm sure mostly people would be "It's still perl so it's still not as good as go&nodejs" 19:16
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El_Che lizmat: to be fair, it was a huge torpedo to the 2 languages narrative 19:40
lizmat yes, I know
El_Che I know you know :) 19:41
lizmat FWIW, I would like to go on record that I have never bought into the sister language argument
I think it was a necessary evil at the time 19:42
and I think it is time to get rid of that necessary evil
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El_Che lizmat: by acknowledging that now *you* sound evil :) 19:45
kind of machiavellistic
you should pet a cat when saying that :P 19:46
lizmat well, according to the responses on r/perl I *am* evil and the antichrist
I'll pet woolfy, is that ok ?
El_Che if you put her on a chain that will raise eyebrows :) 19:47
if the sister-languages narrative looses importance, renaming Perl 6 would make Perl 5 people happy 19:48
and allow Perl 6 to position itself as a new hipster languag 19:49
e
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jberger lizmat: for the record, not I nor anyone else called you evil nor the antichrist 19:55
what we said was "this sure looks like they want to kill perl 5 and that the two languages story was always a fiction"
and that seems to be true
and I have to say, it is pretty upsetting to me
lizmat fwiw, I don't think Perl 5 needs anybody outside to kill perl5: I think p5p at the moment is doing a fine job 19:56
DrForr Note to self: fold riot shield out of something before giving talk.
jberger that and the lack of a path forward for us sure
now I wonder what effort has caused that?
I don't hate Perl 6, I don't dislike Perl 6, mostly I don't think very much about Perl 6 19:57
lizmat then you don't have anything to worry about
jberger and yet while our version is less than yours we are marked for death
and the only thing that helped was your community continually singing a message of coexistence 19:58
lizmat I'm sorry, but I don't think you can use Perl 6 as a scapegoat for the stagnation of p5p
jberger FWIW, I would like to go on record that I have never bought into the sister language argument, I think it was a necessary evil at the time
El_Che We're at an impasse where both languages will suffer. I don't see how an status quo can reverse that.
jberger that ends that
and you ended it
lizmat: come one
really
lizmat not anymore
jberger you are completely diluded 19:59
lizmat if you look at the number of people working on rakudo, and compare that to the number of people working on perl 5
jberger and I should leave before I say something worse
I'll read the log later, I'm so upset I'm shaking, literallly
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El_Che lizmat: to be fair, the seperate language story also means that Perl 5 users won't flock en masse to Perl 6 20:00
so a new antagonizing narrative won't bring much to Perl 6, I think
lizmat jberger: I'm sorry to have physically upset you
to continue my point for the log: 20:01
the people power behind Perl 6 is only a fraction of the people power behind Perl 5
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lizmat so I really do *not* see how you can blame the stagnation of p5p in the past 8 years on Perl 6 20:03
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lizmat Since the yearly release cycle of 5.12, there have been more people working on Perl 5 than there have been on Perl 6 20:05
not only that: since 2008 work of several Perl 5 Porters has been funded! 20:06
www.perlfoundation.org/perl_5_core_...nance_fund
I think it is therefore improper to use Perl 6 as a scapegoat for the stagnation in the development of Perl 5 20:07
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El_Che lizmat: stagnation feature wise and perception of stagnation are related but not the same thing. The no mayor version number possible did hurt Perl 5 dramatically if I look in my surroundings. 20:19
so, in this case you and jberger both have a point
lizmat ok, but has it been hurting in the last say 5 years ?
tadzik I think it speaks volumes that there's a "Perl 6 core development fund" and a "Perl 5 core maintenance fund" 20:20
El_Che I think so
tadzik and I don't think any community meme caused that :)
lizmat tadzik: good point, didn't even think of that :-)
El_Che again not directly tied ti progress or lack of in p5p (although related), but in the perception of old and potential users
lizmat so what would possibly change that perception? 20:21
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lizmat Perl 6 getting another name? won't happen, that ship has sailed 20:21
El_Che start with leaving the Perl 6 name (I know, I know)
lizmat bumping Perl 5 to Perl 7 ? Won't that be seen as just putting the same old wine in a new bottle ? 20:22
El_Che now, not 5 or 2 years ago, the name has only downsides for both Perl 5 and 6
moritz not true
El_Che lizmat: it may well be, but it's to the perl 5 communty to decide or fix that
moritz there are many folks who see "Perl" as a strong brand
El_Che moritz: it is a strong brand 20:23
moritz: but it's a Perl 5 brand
*not* a Perl 6 brand
moritz El_Che: many people don't make that distinction
which is both blessing and curse, but it is what it is
El_Che the deciding factor is if it's more of a course or more of a blessing today 20:24
-o
In my opinion, it hurts Perl 5 today and it doesn not bring much to Perl 6 anymore 20:25
those who wanted to switch did already
those happy in Perl 5 will stay there
and many new users won't give Perl 6 a go because they think it's 2005's Perl 5 20:26
moritz my experience is different
lizmat fwiw, mine as well
moritz I've written Perl 6 articles for IT journals
El_Che moritz: again, subjective as hell
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jberger sorry, I shouldn't have jumped off, I was just very upset 20:26
moritz and there seems to be continuous interest about it
lizmat jberger: I understand
and I'm sorry
moritz and people said "oh, I wanted to check that out, but it didn't seem mature enough" 20:27
and then they give it another go
jberger all I want to say is that (unless this has changed) we don't have any recourse
we need you guys to say they are separate languages
I would love to rename one or the toher
moritz and they tell me about all the cool things they've done with perl 4 and perl 5 and so on
jberger I would love to release Perl 5 as Perl 7 or 28 or whatever, but I've been told that isn't allowed either
moritz so, it doesn't seem that interest in Perl 6 would be there without the "Perl" brand
El_Che moritz: sure, true, but that's the Perl 6 is the succesor of 5 mindset 20:28
tadzik there was a mention of Perl 5 being marked for death, but I can't help too think that it did this to itself
jberger so in the meantime, we (p5) ONLY have the sister languages story
El_Che (of those users, not yours)
tadzik a few years ago I recall a talk of a p5-mop as a potential core feature
El_Che pixie
lizmat jberger: things change
jberger but if the story really becomes p6 replaces p5 then literally we die out
tadzik a few months ago I watched sawyer's talk about new features in P5, and my takeaway from it was "there'll be an avocado in our Unicode support, also we're finally stabilizing that feature that Fortran had" 20:29
jberger lizmat: we aren't going to let that happen, the actual other option is war
tadzik (sub signatures)
jberger people make their livings on p5
me includes
included
tadzik these days when people say "Oh, you do Perl, isn't Perl dead?" I just say "well, programming languages never die"
jberger managers being told that p5 is dead changes my actual life
tadzik I make a living off of P5 too 20:30
lizmat jberger: and now you're accusing me to rob you of your livelyhood ?
jberger yes I am
mspo jberger: that's been happening for years, though
jberger this is the story we agreed to
mspo: I would love to have seen it happen differently
this is where we ARE
tadzik and in the back of my head there's always "if I continue on this path, I'll be an equivalent of a cobol programmer 30 years from now"
jberger sister languages is our agreement, our detange
detante
mspo I learned perl5 in ~2000 and by 2005 python was on the first part of its big upswing
with little upsets by ruby 20:31
jberger if p6 doesn't want to abide by that, it has to be war, and I DON'T want that
mspo and perl was already seen as old :)
lizmat doesn't want that either
jberger so hold the line, why do you have to try to win?
lizmat believes arms are for hugging
jberger p5 can't win, that's decided unless we are given or take a new version number
lizmat: then please act like it 20:32
those quote earlier are really bad
El_Che the sister narrative was a way to burry the major release trouble
if that goes away, the problems returns
tadzik you really think that a new version number will change *anything*?
jberger tadzik: PHP just proved that it does
El_Che maybe it's a good idea to finally fix it
jberger PHP7 is getting good press
mspo php7 was a big enhancement
jberger it added some minor features, fixed complaints
mspo I got a 40% performance improvement "for free"
jberger people are seeing it in a different light
mspo like qualified and everything 20:33
jberger it really IS a thing, not just something a few of us have been screaming into the void
El_Che I know about the "ship has sailed thing", but I feel we're all loosing ATM
jberger El_Che: I agree
lizmat ok, let me get this straight: the sister language meme is keeping Perl 5 from dying, because Perl 6 is not renamed to something else, and a bump to version 7 is not allowed
jberger yes 20:34
otherwise people who don't know (and that's most of them, think non-technical managers)
mspo jberger: are you trying to safe the perl5 language or the runtime?
jberger they don't understand how 6 doesn't replace 5
tadzik well if perl 5.30 got a 40% perf bump, I'll be telling it to everyone
jberger so we have to tell them that, over and over and over
tadzik but all I have to say now is "their unicode support is getting better!"
mspo yeah that php7 thing was no joke 20:35
jberger the highest version number is the winner
tadzik which, let's face it, is only appealing to an infinitesimal audience
jberger tadzik: there are plenty of things p5 could do with a major version number release
tadzik in the general case, nobody gives a shit
lizmat jberger: are you trying to safe the perl5 language or the runtime?
jberger strict and warnings by default, signatures
mspo: there is only one runtime 20:36
tadzik jberger: is that really what's keeping p5p for changing things for the better though? "We can't because we can't change a version number significantly enough?"
jberger sure it would be great if there were more
lizmat so: 2 lines less in each properly maintained module and a feature that all other languages in the world already have for decades ?
jberger but right now there is only one
tadzik they just don't want to drop support to 90% of their users, which is understandable
jberger lizmat: sane defaults for newcomers and let us decide what is good for us please 20:37
mspo jberger: I know but it's a question is all
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lizmat jberger: there is no single Perl 5 runtime anymore: there's rperl, cperl, perlito 20:37
mspo there is only one that matters
lizmat jberger: but you were talking about features that would attract new Perl 5 users
jberger lizmat: fine, but lets say they are under the umbrella, possibly with the exception of perlito
lizmat: yes
are we allowed to want new users?
lizmat yes, of course 20:38
mspo jberger: perl5 should port to moar and evolve from there as something else :)
jberger mspo: great, who's doing that?
mspo moarvm could use the man power!
jberger moar is like, what, 3 years old?
lizmat and your point is?
jberger we couldn't have known which backend to target until like a year ago
so maybe it will, but it will take time
lizmat well, that's my point: things *are* changing 20:39
jberger and in the meantime the existing problems dont go away
mspo larry owns "perl", right?
lizmat afaik, yes
tadzik it's younger than pypy, which hasn't even attracted the attention of the whole python community :)
jberger lizmat: who's going to spend all the time porting a language that is dead to a new mv?
vm
[Coke] news.perlfoundation.org/2018/01/tpc...-2018.html
tadzik great, that's what the open letter was for
mspo like you said, a major version bump could bring a lot of good changes 20:40
but without that freedom it is "dead"
lizmat jberger: my point is that Perl 5 as a language is *not* dead
jberger without that freedom and without the help of the owners of the higher version number
lizmat but that perl5 as a runtime is nearing its end of life
tadzik oh come on
jberger lizmat: you REALLY didn't say that
moritz fwiw rakudo dropped moar in Jul 2016, and it was clear that moar was the winner long before that
Phil21 haha
I can guarantee you zero business leaders care about perl5's runtime :)
tadzik how many years is it taking p5p to standarize and accept signatures as a given?
Phil21 (the ones who give me money to pay dev teams)
tadzik and supposedly bumping a number would make development faster? Features more modern? 20:41
mspo www.perl.com/article/an-open-lette...community/ sounds great
lizmat if anything, I'm trying to conserve all of the people years of development of Perl 5 modules
jberger is XS going to work in moar?
lizmat no 20:42
never
tadzik p5 has a perfectly good way of bringing new features to the language without breaking backcompat
it's just not doing it
lizmat well, maybe not never
everything becomes fluid under pressure, but I don't see XS being ported
because Perl 6 has NativeCall
Scimon jberger: if you need it then why not write pure C libs and use NativeCall?
lizmat for all of the external library interfacing
and for the speedup argument: running on a VM that does inlining should remove the need for optimizing by hand 20:43
tadzik I guess half (or more) of XS stuff is not for *external* interfacing
it's digging deeper into 5
lizmat many of the introspection XS code, is built in into Perl 6 20:44
Sub::Name being a prime example of that
tadzik often to compensate for what could be seen as its shortcomings
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leont I can imagine a subset of XS being ported, but as soon as people start using PerlAPI that does out of the window pretty quickly 20:44
And IME most real XS does use the api 20:45
lizmat indeed: but as Scimon said: why not write C code and NativeCall it ?
perhaps we need to focus more on porting Inline::C
Scimon As is my way I've played about a bit with Native Call and it's impressive how fast you can get stuff done. Thing is you're then losing the power of which ever VM you are running on. 20:47
(I would guess)
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lizmat Scimon: afaik, NativeCall works on both MoarVM and JVM backends 20:50
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lizmat Javascript backend will be a bit more troublesome, especially when running in the browser, I guess 20:50
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jberger anyway, none of this matters, the runtime of p5 isn't going to materially change any part of this in the medium term 20:52
mspo jberger: what do you want to happen? 20:53
sena_kun _cough_ I don't know what I'm writing about right now, so apologizing in advance and, please, don't pay any attention my post at all, just my 5 cents. Languages are just tools. If you make money by writing a software, it is plain as day that you can(and should) learn many of them. You cannot, like, learn language X(be it any langauge, literally ANY) and use it forever and ever. I'm using java/perl 6/python/nodejs/plain js plus things like 20:56
haskell on a daily basis and I don't think it's mpossible. When I needed to read/write perl, php, go or, oh gosh, VisualBasic - well, I just did it and that's all. It's just given. In the end of the day, there are some differences, but it's just some data and algorithms.
jberger mspo: I think I've said that several times but I'd say it again. Best case, p6 renames and/or p5 rolls version say 28 ("and" preferably). In the absence of that just not shooting the horse in the head
sena_kun: no need to apologize. This really has nothing to do with syntax, in fact syntax is almost a distraction 20:57
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lizmat jberger: about 6 years ago, I was of the same opinion, believe it or not 20:58
kraih lizmat: just wanted to tell you that i'm very disappointed with your letter, what you're doing is not good for either language :(
lizmat kraih: I'm sorry to hear that 20:59
I know the path to hell is paved with good intentions :-(
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lizmat even just before the 6.c release in December 2015, it would have been possible to change the name of Perl 6 21:00
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lizmat but now we're more than 2 years down the road again 21:01
there are now 7 Perl 6 books published compared to one re-release of a Perl 5 book since then
jberger lizmat: plenty of people asked for that to happen, to say now that you could have then but didn't is crazy 21:02
"the ship has
lizmat and if you read this book: www.amazon.com/Friendly-Orange-Glo...1101871555
jberger sailed" has been the argument for years
look at the comments on my blog posts from years ago 21:03
I would have LOVED that, so why didn't it?
lizmat you will see at least one language that I have been proficient in and made my livelihood in
that just doesn't exist anymore
jberger lizmat: sure, things change
lizmat right
jberger but if people take an active role in changing my life against my will I'm going to react
and right now, that person is unfortunately you 21:04
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jberger btw Perl 5 would love to change (or I'd like to see it at least) 21:04
kraih trying to destroy perl5 won't make perl6 magically happen, you have to actually put in real work and build up a new identity
jberger what recourse do you see that we have?
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kraih Perl 6 is a dead brand, it's never going to happen 21:04
lizmat well, I think Perl 5 as a *language* has so much to offer, that it should be preserved 21:05
kraih and you're dragging down Perl 5
lizmat kraih: I'm sorry you feel the existence of Perl 6 is dragging down Perl 5
jberger: I think I said it in my blog post: 21:06
kraih as a language i don't care about Perl 6, it's the name
lizmat I would really love to see p5p become *Porters* again
jberger lizmat: great, join up and donate your time
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lizmat jberger: I've already donated quite a bit 21:07
and not just for Perl 6
jberger I know, and you've done a lot for both languages
lizmat as a latest example: without Wendy and me there would not have been a TPCiA (aka YAPC::Europe) this year
jberger but that doesn't mean that current p5p users should chase a fools errand while p6 lobs grenades at us
Scimon Here's the thing. If we create API similar versions of major Perl5 libs for Perl6 who does that hurt?
lizmat if p5p users don't want to participate, it's their good right! 21:08
jberger lizmat: so why would they if you are saying that perl5 feature development should stop?
lizmat it's open source, dammit, and it depends on *volunteers* (and people who get paid to be volunteers :-)
jberger lizmat: totally agree
I don't think you'll see anyone take you up on this proposal is all I'm saying 21:09
what is the benefit?
lizmat I hope you're wrong, but there is that chance, yes
in any case, *I* have already started porting stuff
modules.perl6.org/t/CPAN5
Scimon You have it's scarily impressive. :)
jberger to perl6 or to another p5 language runtime?
you are allowed to port perl5 libraries as their licenses permit 21:10
that is really irrelevant to this discussion
lizmat I see the CPAN Butterfly Plan as a prerequisite for a *possible* Butterfly Perl 5
jberger but what benefit is that to perl5? 21:11
Scimon Well I think that's the thing there were a few parts to lizmat's post.
jberger anyway, I really need to get back to $work
Phil21 ^
jberger I've spent too much immediate time on this as it is
(Phil21 is my boss)
(and sometime sponsor of perl events) 21:12
Scimon I'm focussing my efforts on the "making perl6 libraries that are functionally similar to perl5 ones" to make it easier for people to migrate.
lizmat jberger: thanks for your time, and Phil21: it's my fault
Phil21 it's an interesting conversation
TEttinger I think at least backwards-incompatible (breaking) features shouldn't be added to perl5, it's responsible for a lot of stability stuff and it would be hard to have the issue of "you have to use an older version of perl5 than the current perl5 to use library X"
Phil21 that is somewhat dear to me, but don't really have enough of a foot in the community to really make any comments :)
just seems like an argument that's been going on for a decade+ :/
lizmat Phil21: thank you for letting jberger comment :-) 21:13
Phil21 lizmat: thanks for all your hard work!
lizmat *blush* :-)
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petdance Here's the key: Is Perl 6 a sister language or not? 21:15
Can both languages co-exist?
What I read in the open letter and in the IRC logs is that no, Liz does not want to co-exist with Perl 5.
Is that the opinion of the Perl 6 community as a whole?
kraih this channel has always been hostile towards Perl 5 21:16
Scimon IMO they will both co-exist for a googly long time.
lizmat what?
kraih: what ?
Scimon (goodly)
kraih it scared me away from the community a few years back when i started a Mojolicious port
moritz kraih: that is simply not true
I use perl 5 for $work, and don't experience hostility here 21:17
Scimon I have to agree. Heck most perl6 devs are perl5 devs too in some way or other.
Me too.
kraih but that's another argument
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moritz petdance: I don't think it's the opinion of the whole Perl 6 community 21:17
Scimon I think what you do have here is people who get paid to write perl5 (ifthey are lucky) who would much rather write perl6
El_Che kraih: I don't agree with that 21:18
Scimon I personally would just like to make it easier to sell Perl6 to devs and management.
petdance Is Perl 6 a sister language or is that idea of coexisting with Perl 5 a "fiction" that was a "necessary evil"?
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Scimon Making it easy for a perl5 dev to move to Perl6 by giving them modules they recognise is part of it. 21:18
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moritz petdance: please don't create false dychtonomies 21:19
petdance: things can change without the past being a fiction
petdance Fiction isn't my word.
moritz (not that I say they did change)
petdance I'm just quoting.
moritz "fiction" then
petdance That's exactly what I wrote.
El_Che petdance: Liz' opinion is pretty clear on the log, the question is where to go from here
petdance I know what her opinion is.
Is that the opinion of Perl 6 as a whole? 21:20
moritz no
lizmat fwiw: jberger used the worth "fiction", I used the word "argument"
moritz jut as I'm pretty sure the Perl 5 community as a whole doesn't have a unified opinion
*just
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petdance fair enough, jberger said "fiction". 21:20
"necessary evil" is bad enough. 21:21
Scimon I think all perl5 and perl6 devs can agree we prefer either to node ;)
moritz personally, I think Perl 5 needs some radical changes, or obsolete itself over the next ~20 years or so
lizmat yes, it is *evil* because it puts both Perl 5 and Perl 6 in a cul-de-sac
Scimon (Scimon attempts to lighten the mood)
jberger moritz: I would love to. How can we proceed? I'd like to know
El_Che Scimon: how is that working out? :)
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moritz jberger: that's the catch. I don't see how it can, without sacrificing backwards compat 21:22
lizmat petdance: it was necessary to prevent "civil war"
at the time
moritz jberger: on a purely technical level
petdance But you didn't believe it.
lizmat petdance: well, I'm allowed to have my own opinion, no? 21:23
jberger moritz: to a first cut, I'd love to see a release in which strict and warnings are enabled by default (no strict; no warnings; would still allow backcompat) and hopefully similar for a few other warts
but I don't see how we can do that without a major version number
I'd also love to enable signatures and other such features
moritz jberger: how would a major version number help?
petdance I feel betrayed today.
jberger give new users the sane defaults that we all use
moritz: semver 21:24
lizmat petdance: but now, the "sister language" meme is working against Perl 5 and Perl 6
moritz jberger: I don't see how that answers the question
jberger we
sorry
moritz jberger: do you mean, invoking the perl interpreter through different names?
lizmat petdance: and it's working more against Perl 5 than Perl 6
petdance: I'm sorry you feel betrayed
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El_Che the sister thing was a compromise for the lack of compromise on the naming problem 21:24
petdance Why not let the Perl 5 folks decide what's best for Perl 5? 21:25
jberger nm, sorry, I can't right now. too much work
moritz jberger: because otherwise you still either don't have a sane default or break back compat
lizmat petdance: who is saying that they shouldn't ?
moritz jberger: ok
jberger: feel free to point me to an explanation when you have more time 21:26
petdance "it's working more against Perl 5 than Perl 6"
Scimon I'm still confused about this idea that Perl5 people and Perl6 people are different.
lizmat petdance: I've expressed my ideal world: p5p becoming Porters again
petdance Let Perl 5 decide if that's the case.
lizmat petdance: with Perl 5, do you mean p5p ?
petdance Here's my bottom line: I can't support a project that wants to replace another one.
And what I read in Liz's post is "P5 needs to go" 21:27
TEttinger I got the exact opposite impression
lizmat petdance: I'm sorry you read that into that
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petdance Please stop with the BS "I'm sorry"s. 21:27
TEttinger emphasizing stability is saying it needs to _stay_
kraih lizmat: your module porting effort will not be particularly successful, it will only alienate the Perl 5 community further
El_Che petdance: isn't it a little early to look for a unified project stance? At the moment we're talking about 1 open letter 21:28
Scimon kraih: Why do you say that?
petdance That's why I asked my question.
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geekosaur I am starting to think a lot of people can't read for comprehension 21:28
petdance If you'll recall, I asked at the very beginning if that's the stance of Perl 6 as a whole.
geekosaur petdance, as I read it, lazmat is saying p5p's attitude is killing perl 5 and that needs to change 21:29
moritz petdance: yes, and I've answered that, twice
geekosaur yoiu, and some others don;'t seem to be able to read very well
or you prefer to believe that lizmat said something else
kraih lizmat: if you're aiming for a positive outcome you'd have to bring the communities closer together, make v5 actually work
petdance moritz: I know you have. I was replying to El_Che.
lizmat kraih: as I said in my blog post: that's something I would like to see happen
but I also realized it may be too soon for it, because Perl 5 us *also* a set of modules that would need to be ported 21:30
El_Che The emotions are fresh, let agree not to burn all bridges on the first day?
lizmat which you could argue, is actually a prerequisite for the success of making "v5" work
moritz El_Che: +1
El_Che most people know each other for years here 21:31
geekosaur personally I think the perl 5 core has been throttling perl 5 to death since *before* perl 6
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geekosaur this is not perl 6's fault, this is a rotten perl 5 core that needs to be replaced with people who actually care about perl 5 21:31
lizmat petdance: if anything, I wanted to be a "amicus curiae" to p5p when I said I would like to see them become Porters again
moritz geekosaur: you make it sound like p5p doesn't care about p5, which is certainly not the case 21:32
kraih geekosaur: perl 6 is what's harming perl 5 the most, it comes up in every single argument i ever have about perl with people from other language communities
petdance It's all people ask about.
geekosaur kraih, "it comes up in" yes this sis 100% proof
ok, yes, stupid people are oin fact God
lizmat kraih: ok, given that Perl 6 is not going to go away, or be renamed
dylanwh the peopel confused by perl6 and perl5 are not stupid.
lizmat kraih: how do you see things moving forward then? 21:33
El_Che geekosaur: let's moderate the tone. Calling users stupid does not help. It's something people experience (I have)
TEttinger just as an outsider (I use neither perl5 nor perl6), I've seen some rude phrasing on one... make that both camps. maybe try to bring the civility up a notch
lizmat TEttinger++
Scimon TEttinger++
It's all getting a bit crazy in here.
kraih lizmat: i've been part of the rename Perl 6 camp since like 2008 21:34
lizmat petdance: suppose the CPAN Butterfly Plan works out, wouldn't that actually give you some arguments to all of the people that ask you about perl ?
moritz kraih: fwiw I have quite a different impression on what's hurting Perl 5: sigils, coercive semantics (which many people don't seem to like), lack of signatures, lack of a good threading option, performance
Scimon I've never had a manager tell me I can't write a project in Perl because of Perl6. I HAVE had then tell me because I should use Jave, or Node, or Python because Perl is dead. But Perl6 is never on their radar.
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moritz kraih: weird OO, and so on 21:34
lizmat suppose we would have a functioning Butterfly Perl 5, wouldn't that strengthen your argument to keep / start using Perl 5 ? 21:35
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El_Che Butterfly Perl and Rakudo Perl could work. "Butterfly Perl 5" is recreating the same naming problem... again 21:36
kraih moritz: by all accounts Perl 5 is a much more successful language than Perl 6 21:37
Scimon Yup.
TEttinger after 30 years I'd hope so
kraih so it can't just be about features
moritz kraih: that's not the point you were making earlier, and not the one I'm addressing now
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Scimon Nope 30 years of use with little competition at the start might have something to do with it. 21:38
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Scimon Anyway. I was going to bed. 21:38
TEttinger heh, absolutely
lizmat Scimon: good night!
Scimon Night all. Be nice.
TEttinger comparing early perl to other tools at the same time must have been night-and-day
kraih moritz: but by your argument Perl 6 should be much more successful
El_Che bye Scimon
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moritz kraih: no 21:39
kraih lizmat: why tap into the perl 5 market at all, why not python?
El_Che I repeat what I said earlier: at the moment we're all loosing.
kraih why not port python modules? 21:40
petdance I think all projects would be well-served by not trying to claim what's best for other projects.
TEttinger ...
that's a contradiction, what you just said 21:41
moritz it's not as if projects had singular voices and could claim anything
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El_Che well, if you want both projects to proper going back to an status quo won't cut it this time (or maybe it will, but we will be at the same place in a few years) 21:41
moritz or as if lizmat's participation in Perl 6 would exclude her from the Perl 5 community, and forbid her to say things about Perl 5
petdance It's frustrating to hear someone on Perl 6 say "We should do such-and-such, and it will help Perl 5, too" 21:42
moritz petdance: please remember that lizmat is a perl 5 person too
petdance I do know that.
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petdance I wasn't talking about her in specific. 21:42
moritz then what *are* you talking about? 21:43
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TEttinger welcome to the jungle, Zoffix, we got fun and games 21:44
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moritz TEttinger: seems I just killed the conversation :-) 21:45
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TEttinger hooray now we can go back to being mad about emoji proposals in unicode 21:46
gfldex ♥♥♥
Zoffix "I think tyil and Zoffix are working on that?" No, I'm not. As I explicitly said in rakudo.party/post/CPAN6-Is-Here I started the ball rolling, but I won't have time to continue 21:47
It may have been a mistake to make the site in Perl 5. Just not enough volunteers who know the language and personally coding in it is just "work" not "fun" to me, so I'm not motivated at all. 21:48
petdance lizmat has said that she doesn't buy into the idea of Perl 6 and Perl 5 co-existing.
kraih lizmat: i still remember when there were plans to just embed perl5 in perl6 21:49
moritz kraih: that has happend, with Inline::Perl5
petdance So it's hard to take seriously claims of wanting to help Perl 5.
moritz petdance: so if your statements about frustration weren't about lizmat, who were they about?
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petdance Now that I think about it, it includes her. 21:50
moritz kraih: it just happens to be a PITA to deploy anything that uses Inline::Perl5
...
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kraih doesn't sound impossible to solve 21:50
petdance And it also makes it hard for me to want to support Perl 6. 21:51
lizmat petdance: I'm sorry you can't take me seriously ( and I'm not sorry for having used I'm sorry again)
jnthn moritz: What makes it a pain, out of curoisity?
(I haven't tried yet, though will likely have to in the not too distant future... :)) 21:52
moritz jnthn: needing correct versions of perl 5 and perl 6 and their modules
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moritz and each on is own is already kinda painful 21:52
lizmat petdance: I've invested roughly 17 years of my life in Perl 5 only
moritz I wouldn't even begin to know how to do that, except with some kind of container format, like Docker 21:53
lizmat petdance: I think I can also say that Perl 5 wouldn't be in the position it is now because of me
kraih making Inline::Perl5 work well seems way more productive than porting Perl 5 modules randomly
petdance lizmat: OK, and? 21:54
kraih interoperate, bring the communities together
instead of this hostile shit lizmat is starting
Zoffix lizmat++ for stirring the pot and talking about the elephant in the room :)_Gonna knock up a few modules for Buttefly Project some time in the future
kraih sorry, i'm getting a little upset
time to cool off
Zoffix I'm a bit burnt out on humans, so I'll sit this one out, as far as discussions go \o 21:55
moritz petdance: you see, cross-community advice isn't just a one way street. I find it frustrating too, at times
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El_Che kraih: Inline::Perl is a no go for deployment for me. No way to maintain 2 stacks (and the debugging headaches) on 1 project 21:55
petdance Really, I think my questions have been answered.
lizmat petdance: and the answer is ?
El_Che (I know a lot of perl 6 people disagree with me on that)
petdance: please remember about the no burning bridges on the first day. Everyone has a lot to digest 21:56
lizmat petdance: do you think my blog post was written on a whim?
petdance No.
lizmat fwiw, I've been working on it for nearly a month, and had ~ 20 people (mostly Perl 5) preview it 21:57
petdance lizmat: Do you think Perl 5 and Perl 6 can coexist?
Do you want that to happen?
lizmat I have taken *all* of their comments and suggestions into review, and rewrote once from scratch, and finessed significantly before publication 21:58
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lizmat I believe Perl 5 and Perl 6 as *languages* can co-exist 21:58
petdance But?
lizmat I believe that perl5 as a runtime is come to the end of its life
*has
El_Che lizmat: isn't it to p5p to prove you right/wrong? 21:59
lizmat I would *love* to be proven wrong about the longevity of the perl5 runtime
but the signs are *not* favourable
fwiw, I *am* subscribed to p5p and follow the discussions there 22:00
petdance: or do you think I'm wrong about that ? 22:01
El_Che lizmat: I don't think some perl5 people blame you because you see p5p as doomed, but because your letter may be interpreted as wanting to accelerate that in order for people to migrate to 6
petdance I don't have an opinion one way or the other.
Yes yes yes.
"wanting to accelerate that in order for people to migrate to 6" 22:02
El_Che++
lizmat eh, let me get this right ?
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El_Che (notice the "interpretation" part) 22:02
lizmat so we agree that perl5 as a runtime is doomed ?
petdance No, I don't agree or disagree about the perl5 runtime. 22:03
I'm saying that what I read in your post is that you want Perl 5 as it is to die.
lizmat that feels strange coming from such a Perl 5 supporter ?
I want Perl (note the absence of a version there) to *live* a long life 22:04
that means Perl 5 and Perl 6 as languages
if had wanted Perl 5 dead, I would have taken a different set of actions
like not organizing Perl events anymore, or manning Perl booths, or sponsoring events 22:05
El_Che lizmat: I know you personally and I know how much you care (and how many years you have been thinking of this), so I would interprete it like that. But I certainly understand some people will.
lizmat note again: no version there
El_Che "so I wouldn't"
(I meant)
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lizmat petdance: so if you look at this "commercially" 22:06
petdance: I think investments into new features on the perl5 runtime, are bad investments
petdance: I think investments into maintenance and efficiency improvements of the perl5 runtime are good investments
petdance Those investments cost you nothing. 22:07
People work on what they want.
lizmat if the perl5 runtime could be made 40% faster, that would mean several less datacenters to have fill at former $work
petdance: only the people who don't get paid, work on what they want
moritz good night all, try not to tear each others to shreds etc. :-) 22:08
El_Che off for a while. Keep the communication lines open, please.
lizmat people getting paid to remove features from Perl 5 that were once *not* experimental, then became experimental
and now not getting removed at all
that's a bad investment 22:09
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lizmat it even would be if those people did not get paid for that 22:10
the lost investment would just not be monetary
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lizmat hopes we can return to the regular programming on #perl6 22:31
kraih lizmat: p5p doesn't have to prove anything to you, Perl 6 has not proven itself, cpython would be a more reasonable target than Rakudo by all accounts 22:33
geekosaur ...what
lizmat kraih: what's stopping you to port Mojo to cpython ? 22:37
kraih lizmat: my day job is mostly Perl 5 22:40
lizmat I'm glad that's the case: there are many Perl 5 programmers out there that need to program in other languages for a living out of necessity 22:41
Perl programmers that would *love* to be able to come back to programming Perl 22:42
be that Perl 5 or Perl 6
because they miss DWIM in other languages, and need to deal with too much WAT 22:43
kraih in the Mojolicious community it's more often lack of applicants than jobs
we are all heavily employed
lizmat all I can say: good for you!
and I mean that from the bottom of my heart!
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Phil21 lizmat: haha, I just asked jberger that exact question (porting mojo to python) 22:44
lizmat Mojo is one of the reasons Perl 5 is being used extensively
Phil21 you started an office discussion :)
yes, Mojo is the reason I was able to launch a Perl(5) project recently, as a semi-technical manager 22:45
lizmat I think I've started discussions in many other places as well :-)
discussions are good: they make things clear(er)
Phil21 but man it's an uphill battle, which is what really makes me so curious why Perl 6 wants to keep the "perl" name since it seems to me as PHB it can only be a negative
(aka whenever I say the word "Perl" minds close)
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Xliff \o 22:46
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lizmat the decision of Perl 6 keeping the Perl name was TimToady's 22:46
and as benevolent dictator, he is by definition right :-)
Phil21 fair enough
Xliff Are there any console-based GUI libraries for P6?
Something a little more high level than Ncurses. 22:47
kraih at some point i was actually looking for a company to hire me to port Mojo to Perl 6, but there was very little interest
lizmat Phil21: fwiw, as a long term goal I think we can (as a Perl community) reappropriate the Perl branc 22:48
*brand
Phil21 lizmat: I hope so (really) but I've somewhat lost the faith in the last 6mo
just getting much more pushback than usual in boardroom type meetings
lizmat well, I've also seen the signs, and hope that my effort won't be too late
Phil21 agreed 22:49
I certainly understand wanting a unified community
Xliff kraih: Are you talking Mojo.js or another Mojo?
lizmat and I think a unified Perl (supporting both Perl 5 and Perl 6) would be a USP in the world
(Unique Selling Point)
kraih Xliff: mojolicious.org 22:50
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Xliff kraih: Ah. That's the Mojo I initially thought of. 22:51
Big project, that would be.
kraih yes, although mojo is a testament to the expressiveness of perl, whole thing is only about 8k lines of code 22:53
lizmat Xliff: modules.perl6.org/dist/Inform:githu...finanalyst modules.perl6.org/dist/IUP:github:H...que%20Dias 22:54
Xliff: modules.perl6.org/search/?q=gtk
Xliff kraih: Yeah. If you want some help, let me know. This sounds fun.
lizmat: Thanks, although I think I may have misstated my intent by saying "GUI" 22:55
I think what I want is closer to Curses::UI (p5)
lizmat kraih: have you had a look at Cro ? mi.cro.services ? 22:56
Xliff Which I may just use through Inline::Perl5 for now.
Yeah. Curses::UI will do. Thanks, all. 23:00
kraih lizmat: just briefly, but it doesn't appear to bring much new to the table
lizmat are there things lacking in Cro? 23:01
jnthn Well, see the roadmap page for starters :P 23:02
timotimo Xliff: have you looked at Terminal::Print? 23:03
Xliff: the demos are quite a sight to behold <3
leont kraih: doing the thing not only asynchronously but also concurrently would be new to the perl world AFAIK. 23:05
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kraih leont: we do it with a pool of processes, not really "new" 23:08
and of course in web apps the really heavy processing tasks are better put into a job queue anyway github.com/kraih/minion 23:11
timotimo off for RSI break 23:12
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kraih leont: don't get me wrong, i do like those built-in perl 6 features (the whenever keyword rocks), but it's nothing that would make me choose perl 6 over perl 5 23:18
when i say brings nothing new to the table, i mean like phoenix framework
which uses the erlang vm to make message passing seem almost magical 23:20
lizmat well, from what I can see from phoenixframework.org , I think that's *exactly* the niche that Cro is going for
kraih they do stuff that other's can't just replicate
phoenix has found its niche that way 23:21
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El_Che lizmat: TimToady can't be wrong...also when he changes his minde ;) 23:37
lizmat true
lizmat goes to get some shuteye 23:41
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El_Che how could you! 23:42
El_Che ducks
sleep tight
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lizmat
.oO( I saw that :)
 23:43
leont kraih: what part could cro not replicate? (genuinely curious) 23:44
You mean the erlangy distributing the work over many actors? 23:45
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