»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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Xliff_ jnthn++ -- Good tutorial which is highly relevant to something I am trying to design. 01:05
cono++ for asking a good question. ;)
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Geth doc: zoffixznet++ created pull request #1746:
Post release		 01:53
doc/master: 4 commits pushed by (Zoffix Znet)++ 01:54
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Geth doc: 04a545ecb4 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Type/Routine.pod6
Remove trailing whitespace
 02:11
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Routine
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Geth doc: 9558369991 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/pragmas.pod6
Fix pod error
 02:15
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/pragmas
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travis-ci Doc build failed. Zoffix Znet 'Merge pull request #1746 from perl6/post-release 02:17
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/333081223 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/890bf...c590333939
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buggable [travis build above] ☠ Did not recognize some failures. Check results manually. 02:17
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Geth doc: 0770f3a205 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/variables.pod6
Reword \ sigil

  - "thru" isn't liked by spellcheck
  - in this context, `\` isn't an operator		 02:27
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/variables
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travis-ci Doc build failed. Zoffix Znet 'Remove trailing whitespace' 02:36
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/333084841 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/e0c59...a545ecb4a9
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buggable [travis build above] ☠ Did not recognize some failures. Check results manually. 02:36
Geth doc: b023a9a144 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 3 files
Make xtest pass
 02:39
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travis-ci Doc build passed. Zoffix Znet 'Reword \ sigil 02:50
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/333088080 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/95583...70f3a205d3
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SmokeMachine m: class C {multi method a(Int){}; method b {}}; say C.^methods # why multi methods don't show up on .^methods? 03:07
camelia (b a)
SmokeMachine sorry... seems Im on a old version...
m: role R {multi method a(Int){}; method b {}}; say R.^methods 03:09
camelia (b)
SmokeMachine that's only true on roles! ^
is that a bug?
m: role R {multi method a(Int){}; method b {}}; say R.^pun.^methods 03:10
camelia (b a)
SmokeMachine I thought that call .^methods would call .^pun...
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MasterDuke i do find that a bit surprising 03:39
SmokeMachine there are implementations of the method methods into MethodContainer and ParametricRoleGroupHOW 04:02
the one at ParametricRoleGroupHOW just calls the method of the meta class of the @!candidates[0] 04:03
is it possible to the multi method is being "stored" at MultiMethodContainer and thats the motive that its not being found? 04:04
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Xliff_ wonders what Zoffix's native language is... 05:44
blogs.perl.org/users/zoffix_znet/20...erl-6.html
How precient that post is, nearly a year later.
Not to add fuel to the fire, though...
(although, after thinking about it... I probably did... mea culpa) 05:45
AlexDaniel Xliff_: IIRC he was not using his native language for way too long
Xliff_ Still... what was it. I'm curious now.
AlexDaniel :)
Xliff_ oOoh. 05:46
I see what you did thar, AlexDaniel
AlexDaniel what did I do? I think he'll answer himself if he wants to
lookatme Is NativeCall support static link library ?
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Xliff_ AlexDaniel: Hah! You can't play innocent, now. 05:52
lookatme: Um. I'm not sure.
gist.github.com/Xliff/daae42a5ca02...e528fab297
m: gist.github.com/Xliff/daae42a5ca02...e528fab297
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Redeclaration of symbol 'transpose'
at <tmp>:25
------> 3 transpose:7⏏5 <X Y Z>,
lookatme seems like not :) 05:53
Xliff_ Hoo.
lookatme: Ouch. One solution (if the library is not that large) is to write a shared wrapper for each call. 05:54
Not ideal, but...
s/shared wrapper/shared lib with wrappers/
m: transpose(<X Y Z>).say 05:55
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
transpose used at line 1
Xliff_ m: gist.github.com/Xliff/daae42a5ca02...e528fab297 05:57
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unable to parse expression in parenthesized expression; couldn't find final ')' (corresponding starter was at line 24)
at <tmp>:29
------> 3<BOL>7⏏5}
Xliff_ GRRR...
This is why I wanted to use the colon form to begin with!!!
(҂⌣̀_⌣́) 05:58
AlexDaniel that's a nice smiley :)
Xliff_ I know.
japaneseemoticons.me/angry-emoticons/
My go to site for nice smileys. :)
I like this one, too 05:59
(ʘ言ʘ╬)
(ᗒᗣᗕ)՞
(｡☉︵ ಠ╬)
୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ 06:00
I need to macro these.
m: gist.github.com/Xliff/daae42a5ca02...e528fab297 06:03
camelia True
True
Xliff_ \o/
I'm surprised that's not already there.
AlexDaniel you can also have these with compose key 06:04
Xliff_ AlexDaniel: Note, this fixes that warning you wrote that I pointed you too... 06:05
(´つヮ⊂)
compose key?
Oh... Something like WinCompose?
I am running that already. It's faster to cut and paste.
AlexDaniel: So how would proposing this for inclusion in Array work? 06:07
AlexDaniel Xliff_: create a rakudo issue where you explain the problem with the obvious approach, mark it with RFC label, submit a pull request, link these to each other 06:08
Xliff_ kk
Would converting this to nqp, help? 06:09
(groan)
AlexDaniel I don't think so
Xliff_ kk
AlexDaniel the only reason to have that written in nqp is for performance reasons, but I'd prefer to have that as a followup pull request (with measurements on how much faster it is than the p6 implementation) 06:11
and that's only needed if we agree to get that included, so leave that for now :)
FWIW I'm +1 on that one, but I'll also be +1 on any idea on how we can have (an alternative to) [ ] that does no crap like that 06:13
this issue is very unfortunate because we kinda want to have both
Xliff_: fwiw maybe it should check for Positional instead of Array 06:14
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AlexDaniel
.oO( or Iterable? not sure about this case )
 06:15
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Xliff_ AlexDaniel: That can come up in the discussion. 06:17
I will have to get the PR ready, which means code, test cases, and possibly adjustments to documentation. 06:18
And I should include test case output and roast...
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AlexDaniel Xliff_: well you can start with the RFC ticket 06:31
the PR is just something we'll be able to use once later
s/once// 06:32
but yes, I don't expect it to be used multiple times :D
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Geth doc: 61ea388637 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/Any.pod6
Changed "treats" to "coerces"

This addresses @zoffixznet first concern in #1731		 06:37
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Any
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Geth doc: 46302f3109 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/Any.pod6
Correcting the documentation

Now that I've read item 2 of @zoffixznet's list, I see that what I've said for the first item is wrong. Hope it's OK now. Refs #1731		 06:46
doc: ab045aeab6 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/Any.pod6
Addresses second problem

There was a single instance. Refs #1731
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chakli Hello 07:02
i know i need not create new User Agent objects but this snipped seems to give errors after 100 or so tries 07:04
use HTTP::UserAgent;for 1..300 { say "try >> $_"; my $res = HTTP::UserAgent.new.get("google.com"); say $res.status-line; }
Xliff_ That's probably because google is throttling (or outright blocking you) due to usage limits. 07:06
See if the problem goes away (or is mitigated) after introducing delays.
moritz or try it with a different domain that isn't known to block automated requests so agressively 07:08
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chakli I am trying it with delay, but i am not sure if it is google blocking me. 07:23
This is the error i get-> Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1
in method get-proxy
It points to like 360 in a file, which is 07:25
366 has $.http-proxy;
367 # want the request to possibly match scheme, no_proxy etc
368 method get-proxy(HTTP::Request $request) {
369 $!http-proxy //= do if self.is-cgi {
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chakli i tried a couple of times now, but its always happening on the 102nd try 07:28
@moritz any domain you can suggest? 07:29
ecocode good morning Perl6 ! 07:32
llfourn chakli: can you post the full error on a github gist or something? 07:34
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moritz chakli: perl6.org for example 07:39
chakli this is the full log gist.github.com/anonymous/5a20d7a3...6f6aa565bf
llfourn chakli: thanks 07:42
I wonder why there's two get-proxy's in that callstack :S 07:44
it's probably google blocking you after around 100 requests but still that error is weird 07:45
chakli got the same error with perl6.org, didnt have any delays this time 07:47
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chakli perl6 version is 2017.12 Perl 6.c. os is ubuntu 17.10 07:48
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chakli gave a 30 sec delay between requests for google.com and the same error happens 07:50
llfourn chakli: the error itself is very weird and could be indicative of some deeper issue with rakudo. If you look at: github.com/sergot/http-useragent/b...rAgent.pm6 you'll see get-proxy is only called in one place 07:52
and it is called correctly
and it is the one matching your trace
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llfourn I'm not sure but I'm afraid it could be some low level moarvm optimization that kicks in after a certain amount of calls 07:53
causing the runtime to get confused and think it's not being called with an argument
chakli the call stack expects 2 arguments, but the function has only one $request argument 07:55
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llfourn it's a method call so the invocant is always the first argument 07:55
chakli i am not sure if there is an implicit argument like "this" in c++
ok
llfourn m: class F { method a($a) { say "win" } }; F.new.a() 07:56
camelia Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1
in method a at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
llfourn m: class F { method a($a) { say "win" } }; F.new.a("yay")
camelia win
llfourn it's worth reporting github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues I'd say with a link to this coversation maybe 07:57
chakli ok, i can create an issue there. how do i link this conversation? 07:58
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TEttinger there's logs in the channel topic 08:01
irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6
chakli Thanks, created one at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1442 08:12
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ecocode is there any documentation or book describing the easiest/safest way to do CRUD in Perl6 ? 08:20
moritz ecocode: you mean through a web interface? 08:21
leanpub.com/bailador is a work in progress; no idea if it covers CRUD yet 08:22
ecocode *any* interface :)
I don't need RAD. just the data interface
El_Che ecocode: I am planning to use cro to wtite a small crud mini service (+dbish for the db)
ecocode google gave me this books.google.be/books?id=g4otDwAAQ...mp;f=false 08:24
but that seems pretty low level
I'm not looking for speed but for easy data access 08:25
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El_Che ecocode: if you add db access to this you'll get a nice modern crud: cro.services/ 08:27
ecocode An ORM would be awesome, but the project I'm considering can do without that
El_Che: yep, cro looks nice indeed :)
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ecocode I already selected it for the UI part 08:28
Now I need the data part :)
El_Che dbish 08:31
I don't think there is much alternative
if any
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El_Che I wrote it in my backlog for a service I need, scope is limited enough to not miss any modules 08:32
moritz there's github.com/tony-o/perl6-db-orm-quicky but I have no idea how good it is 08:33
El_Che the quickly is a weird part of the name that does not inspire confidence :) 08:35
(no disrespect intended for the author)
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El_Che ecocode: got inspired yesterday? 08:53
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ecocode :) 08:54
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ecocode I have this project I was considering to code with Catalyst / DBIx::Class. But I figured I can try Perl6 on it 08:55
I need a new inventory program, but there is no hurry.. so eventually I have some time to learn Perl6 a bit 08:57
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scimon cono: saw your questions yesterday. I don't know if Timer::Breakable would be any use to you? 08:58
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lizmat ecocode o/ 09:00
ecocode I touched a little Perl6 some time ago, but basically did some test by writing Perl5 code in Perl6. I most certainly need some 'switch' to effectively use Perl6. Where should I start? 09:02
good morning liz :)
masak ecocode: have you found docs.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell ? 09:03
Xliff_ github.com/tony-o/perl6-db-orm-quicky -- looks good, but I'm not that thrilled about needing to create a data row to create a table. 09:04
And this leaves out advanced creation features like indexes and row parameters (auto-increment, not null, etc)
scimon There are a few good books now too. 09:05
Xliff_ Still looks good if you really don't want the SQL.
ecocode: Do you really need the CREATE part? If not, then DB::ORM::Quickly might work for you. 09:06
scimon Never been a fan of ORM's myself. Though... letting devs just write SQL queries willy nilly does tend to end badly too.
Xliff_ scimon: True enough. At least for "careless" values of "dev" 09:07
ecocode Xliff_: The first part is the data entry.. so yes, I need CREATE
Xliff_ I mean, I've hit that point several times, but testing is key.
scimon The problem is the temptation (oft spurred by management and time constraints) to do the quck rather than correct is always there.
(Hand up who's seen SQL queries in Mason templates) o/ 09:08
ecocode masak: Last time I tried Perl6 I started by converting Perl5 into Perl6. Basically I need a _fresh_ look into Perl6 to really use the features of P6
Xliff_ scimon: *shivers* 09:09
Geth doc/master: 5 commits pushed by (Luca Ferrari)++
masak ecocode: yes, that makes sense
Xliff_ I hate non-display code in templates!
daemon scimon, I have seen it directly written into html templates before :P
that site did not stay online long for some reason .. :)
masak ecocode: I still think you will find much in the language documentation
ecocode: I basically learned Perl 6 through the synopses, but that's a long time ago :)
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Xliff_ ecocode: If you have the tables created already, I think that will work. 09:09
My concerns don't apply to you, then. 09:10
ecocode masak: yep, tried the synopsis too... but I'd prefer something more digestive if available
scimon ecocode: the docs do help. Think Perl 6 and Perl6 Primer are good starters. Though if you're already doing perl5 the start may be a bit simple.
Still both cover perl6 methods well. Using Perl 6 is a neat book as it covers a bunch of problems (compute fibonacci etc) gradualy getting more complex. 09:11
And Perl6 Deep dive really gets into it.
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scimon (By Perl6 Primer is meant Perl6 Fundementals) 09:12
ecocode Well, I'll dig in the books Wendy and Liz brought to Brussels yesterday. Perhaps I'll find hapiness there
scimon (I went on a bit of a book buying spree last year)
ecocode Which books best desribes Grammars ?
masak moritz++' book, I'm sure 09:13
smile.amazon.com/Parsing-Perl-Rege...B0785L6WR6
scimon Oh yeah. Moritz wrote a whole book on them.
moritz the reviews are very positive so far :-)
scimon I've read it once. I figure a couple more times and I might fully grasp them. 09:14
moritz scimon: if you liked it, please rate it on amazon :-)
scimon I thought I had... I'll got check.
Side note. It did lead me to this fun stuff yesterday. $encoded.comb(/ .*?(.) <?{ $/[0] ~~ any( (63..92).map( *.chr ) ); }> /) 09:15
Yeah I had already. 09:16
moritz thanks! 09:19
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scimon S'good book. Keep it up :) 09:21
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ecocode I'll start with an easy book and then I'll get into the grammars :) 09:26
stmuk AlexDaniel++ 09:27
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moritz ecocode: perl6book.com/ has an overview of Perl 6 books 09:28
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ecocode Another question: I'm the maintainer of a web-parsing module written in Perl5: Finance::Quote. It makes extensive use of HTML::TreeBuilder and HTML::TableExtract. Should I already consider to write it in Perl6 with grammars or should I wait for some kind of HTML parser to be written in P6 ? 09:31
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scimon There is one... one sec. 09:31
ecocode moritz: yep, liz sent me the link before, but I needed some inside view which one to start with.. thanks scimon for that info :) 09:32
scimon ecocode: github.com/tony-o/perl6-html-parser-xml It does give you an XML document representation of the HTML file but it does the job. 09:33
I have been thinking about picking up WWW::Mechanize and thought about writing an HTML Grammar... but HTML doesn't really lend itself to Grammars because bad HTML is considered OK and XHTML never caught on. 09:34
Because humans. ;)
ecocode thx for the link 09:35
jast well there *is* a distinction between tag soup (more or less hopelessly broken HTML) and standards compliant HTML
I'm sure there are a few websites that adhere to the standards 09:36
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ecocode :) 09:38
jast personally I'd consider using grammars to parse the individual tags, but not for building the tree representation of elements 09:39
scimon jast++ 09:40
indeed.
Geth doc/master: 4 commits pushed by (Luca Ferrari)++
Xliff_ ecocode: For parsing HTML code, I've always done "use Mojo::DOM<Perl5>" 09:41
Juerd Much of the "bad html" that you will encounter is actually compliant: many closing tags are optional. The html, head, and body tags are also optional.
Xliff_ Which really doesn't answer your question for a pure Perl6 implementation.
scimon Meanwhile I'm looking at the work codebase and trying to understand bits. Hence finding and rewriting Algorithm::GooglePolylineEncoding which was interesting.
Xliff_ But it really simplifies things, even over something like HTML::Parser::XML
jast I like Mojo::DOM in Perl 5 land
buggable New CPAN upload: P5hex-0.0.2.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.2.tar.gz 09:42
New CPAN upload: P5oct-0.0.2.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.2.tar.gz
New CPAN upload: Algorithm-GooglePolylineEncoding-0.0.2.tar.gz by SCIMON cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/S/SC/...0.2.tar.gz
Xliff_ It works just fine in Perl6 using Inline::Perl5
scimon There's some REALLY awful HTML out there (I knew a site that had 200 lines between the </head> and <body> tags with links and css in them.
There's some REALLY awful HTML out there (I knew a site that had 200 lines between the </head> and <body> tags with links and css in them.)
*shudder*
(Oooops.)
Xliff_ scimon++
lizmat *shudder* :-)
Xliff_ And the sad thing is that most sites are starting to look like that. 09:43
Please don't start me on WordPress themes.
(and folks say that's the future!)
／(x~x)＼ 09:44
ecocode Xliff_: Well I'd prefer a pure P6 solution, but I might consider some kind of temporary bridge using Inline::Perl5 in a first stage
Xliff_ ecocode: Someone has mentioned porting Mojolicious to Perl6. I hope that happens. I'm even willing to help.
scimon Xliff_: I'm pretty sure they've been saying it's the future for 10 years. 09:45
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jast Mojolicious is one of the least terrible web frameworks I've seen (that's a compliment in case you were wondering :)) 09:46
ecocode is still using Catalyst for the stuff he runs @work 09:48
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ecocode with heavy use of DBIx::Class 09:48
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jast I don't like ORMs :) 09:49
moritz only somewhat liked DBIx::Class, but is pretty happy with sqlalchemy 09:50
ecocode after listening to lizmat and El_Che yesterday evening I figured I should definitely study micro services. So that kept me awake till somewhere around 4am :)
moritz fwiw I found www.dwmkerr.com/the-death-of-micros...s-in-2018/ to be a pretty well balanced articles on mircoservices, when to use them, and when not 09:51
buggable New CPAN upload: Sparrowform-0.0.12.tar.gz by MELEZHIK cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/M/ME/....12.tar.gz 09:52
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player Hi. Is there way to delete perl6 version using rakudobrew? 10:46
I didn't find any mention of it in docs.
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tadzik rakudobrew nuke <version> should work 10:49
and you're right, it's not in the docs
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tadzik oh my, I have a lot of PRs :) 10:49
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El_Che ecocode: about the C in CRUD. I think that "creating" in the question someone asked to you was about creating tables and not creating rows. So any simple sql framework would be enough 11:18
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ecocode El_Che: yep 11:34
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cono Xliff_: this is the final piece of code I have: glot.io/snippets/exotklz7vs 11:53
scimon: thanks, will look into Timer::Breakable
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jnthn cono: That looks pretty nice :) 11:54
cono jnthn: well, I just groomed what you have typed :D
this is actually good patter to be included somewhere 11:55
probably in IO::Async
io::socket::async I mean
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lizmat perhaps more general, on Supply ? 11:57
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cono yeah, could be 12:00
Supply.timeable(4) --> Supply :)
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jnthn I think first of all put it in a module :) 12:02
buggable New CPAN upload: P5chomp-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz
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cono got it :) 12:03
lucasb o/ 12:05
jnthn lunch &
lucasb is waiting on a moarvm package :)
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player tadzik, I'm just curious. Don't you consider 1 alias something like "uninstall" to "nuke" 2 rewriting rakudobrew in Perl 6? 12:09
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buggable New CPAN upload: P5chop-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz 12:22
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jkramer is there a good module for reading images and analyzing them (pixelwise)? I only find stuff for writing/modifying images 12:31
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tadzik player: never considered the former. The latter has a bit of a bootstraping problem :) 12:38
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Zoffix Xliff_: it's Russian. Though, I lived in English speaking countries for 60% of my life 12:40
Xliff_: what's prescient in my article? I don't see any predictions in it... 12:42
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buggable New CPAN upload: P5chr-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz 13:12
New CPAN upload: P5ord-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz
player Is there someting like perltidy for Perl 6? 13:15
lucasb hmm, one module for each P5 function? Isn't it too much granular? 13:18
lizmat player: no, not yet afaik, although I think DrForr has been working on something in that direction
lucasb: perhaps, but I'd like to have each function its own issues queue 13:19
and there will be a P5function module that will give you all of them in one go
Juerd Having installed a nodejs application with approximately 1300 dependencies yesterday, I'd say: yes, one module per function is too granular.
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masak the JavaScript people are still reeling with joy over finally having a package manager at all ;) 13:20
lizmat Juerd: fortunately there aren't 1300 builtins in Perl 5 that have different semantics in Perl 6
jast I like how in nodejs, each dependency has its own dependencies in a subtree 13:28
so you can have several copies of the same dependency in your dependency tree
moritz I hope they manage to change multiple identical dependencies? 13:30
s/change/join/
jast there may be some kind of hack there to deduplicate, I'm not sure
moritz not thinking properly
jast but generally the dependencies of each dependency are in a physical subdir 13:31
masak I believe the situation used to be worse than it is now
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masak but sometimes you can't join dependencies, because it's two versions of the same thing 13:31
jast sure, and you wouldn't want to randomly switch to a newer version for your average npm package 13:32
Zoffix lizmat: BTW, 2016-Zoffix implemented Perl 5's `quotemeta` in Perl 6. It's an unlisted module. In case you wanted to steal code: github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-String-Quotemeta
lizmat Zoffix++ will do
jast the community around nodejs seems to delight in taking 'move fast and break things' to its extremes 13:33
with some notable exceptions, I'm sure, but still :)
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buggable New CPAN upload: P5ord-0.0.2.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.2.tar.gz 13:52
New CPAN upload: P5chr-0.0.2.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.2.tar.gz
DrForr .tell jnthn 'static $filename;' ignores encoding, at least for UTF-8 HTML files. I'm using "content 'text/html', slurp $filename;" as a workaround. 13:53
yoleaux DrForr: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
DrForr .tell jnthn (at least for Cro) 13:54
yoleaux DrForr: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
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scimon I don't see an issue with the granularity of the modules lizmat is doing (and am impressive rate of knots) because they are intended as stopgap measures. 14:01
masak lizmat++ # doing impressive work in general 14:02
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DrForr lizmat++ # in general, work or not :) 14:04
masak :)
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mst I don't know about anybody else but I don't really feel that it's appropriate for the rakudo star release manager to be actively trying to piss off the entire perl5 community: github.com/rakudup/rakudup.github.io 14:05
we've had enough childish drama from everybody over the last week or so already
and I'm sure we'd all prefer to get back to hacking on our perl(s) of choice
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ilmari mst: I don't see that as targeting the perl5 community, just snarking at anti-perl6 people (between which there is a certain overlap, to be sure) 14:08
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masak I wasn't aware of that repository, but fwiw I agree with mst 14:08
it's unnecessary and immature to actively add fuel to the fire
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mst ilmari: specifically "Prepare to be triggered grumpy old sysadmin snowflakes" is deeply unconstructive, especially at the moment 14:10
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mst also I can't say I'm fond of a pro-perl6 site using alt-right-style rhetoric 14:11
ilmari mm, point
jast seems to me like it's making fun of that rhetoric. I mean, comic sans isn't exactly a subtle choice...
lizmat fwiw, that's my interpretation as well 14:12
ilmari doesn't have comic sans
jast aww, then you're missing at least half of the genuine internet experience 14:13
ilmari ooh, comic neue is in debian now 14:14
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jast huh, I didn't know that. looks like a 50% more serious comic sans. 14:14
geekosaur I'd like to point out the existence of Poe's Law...
ilmari the debian package even configures it as a replacement for Comic Sans MS 14:15
salsa.debian.org/fonts-team/fonts-...-sans.conf
mst I'd like to point out that when the author is a thatcherite and brexit supporter who liked clinton conspiracy theories, I'm less likely to assume 'making fun'
DrForr And it's written in Perl6, not INTERCAL, so the tagline doesn't make sense :) 14:16
jast I don't know the author, I'm judging the website on its own
lizmat yes, and I think we all should do that
jast and I certainly don't intend to turn this into a politics thing
lizmat many of the people here aren't even old enough to know what a thatcherite is 14:17
jast I do see that this is not equally funny to everyone, of course
mst the author is stmuk, aka itz on irc.perl.org, who does the rakudo star releases, hence my feeling this is a trifle unfortunate
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lizmat github.com/rakudup/rakudup.github....ll/1/files 14:18
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comborico1611 Everything is political. 14:19
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mst I don't normally consider people's politics relevant to technical matters, but in terms of the application of poe's law to what's clearly intentionally nasty trolling, it seems relevant in this specific case; I have no issue with people having whatever politics they prefer but I do prefer them to stay out of technical matters 14:20
jast I see your point, at the same time I think everyone should be entitled to having a public opinion about something they're also connected to in a more official capacity, as long as it's not officially advertised / clearly affiliated / sponsored
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jast not that I have any power to decide anything. I just happen to be here right now. :) 14:22
mst I believe everyone should be entitled to have a public opinion, but at the same time I'm still entitled to a public opinion that this is inappropriate divisive bullcrap that will only achieve prolonging and exacerbating the recent futile drama
jast oh, definitely
mst I think masak's "unnecessary and immature" is probably the best summary 14:23
DrForr jnthn++ # Sorting out React toolchain so we don't have to.
comborico1611 Has anyone ever not been able to get the capcha thing to work? 14:28
jnthn would appreciate everyone taking some extra care over their words and actions now and for the coming weeks, so as not to inflame the mess that has already been made
comborico1611 It is really crazy how long i was willing to click on squares that contain street signs. 14:29
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scimon How else are the cars going to learn? 14:29
comborico1611 Yeah, there were cars, too. 14:30
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mst a wild zoffix ... yoyos 14:30
lizmat no: Zoffix has decided to only be on the channel if there is something sensible to say 14:31
otherwise he's being very productive, fwiw
mst: so that was not funny either :-(
mst what. I was just commenting on him joining and quitting 14:32
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lizmat "wild" ? 14:32
mst that's a pokemon reference
'a wild pikachu appears!'
jast I was thinking about using proof-of-work instead of captchas, and making it mildly inconvenient to automate
Zoffix Heh, no. I was going to suggest comborico1611 to install an IRC client and not have to deal with captcha on our webchat, but /version told me they already were using AndChat :)
scimon I got the reference. 14:33
Zoffix I always thought it was a nethack reference.
mst it may be that the pokemon thing was a nethack reference
scimon One probably spawned the other.
mst scimon: "a wild nethack reference appears!" :D 14:34
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scimon The meta. It's smothering me. 14:34
mst this is #perl6 - meta isn't just a word, it's a way of life
jast a weak reference appears! ... and gets garbage collected 14:35
mst jast++
DrForr -- more --
jast scimon: we're going to need more meta to fix that
mst surely it should be
-- moar --
DrForr Verily. 14:36
scimon Going to need a bigger boat. And possibly some cowbell.
Anyway....
jast anyway, my favourite reference is &argc 14:38
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comborico1611 Finally went audio to solve crapcha. 14:43
Garble garble. Even the audio is terrible. I forgot the word, but it was a weird word 14:45
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timotimo fwiw, i was also not happy with the rakudop 'site 14:51
tadzik I think one of those days captchas will be considered a discriminatory action against robots, and in the name of equal rights we'll abolish them completely
but right now they just discriminate humans :|
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geekosaur and, a bit too often, humans without a11y concerns 14:53
tadzik and yes, I think proof-of-work is a sensible alternative
perhaps it seems sensible because I never saw it in practice
timotimo i do believe cloudflare makes ddos impact lesser by requiring proof-of-work on sites that get too much traffic at that moment? 14:54
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DrForr And pisses off everyone using Tor because we routinely trip captcha. 14:55
timotimo heh.
tadzik oooh, so *that's* what it's doing :) 14:57
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tadzik that's sensible 14:57
jast I was thinking about writing a tiny JS base for making proof-of-work barriers 14:58
timotimo i haven't actually verified, of course
jast: integrate it with some cryptocurrency so you also get money out of it once every five years 14:59
jast the approach I had in mind is not exactly compatible with slapping a blockchain on it :)
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jast btw it occurred to me you could even combine the proof-of-work with a simple captcha: generate a captcha together with the POW challenge so that the POW is parameterized by the captcha solution 15:00
timotimo right, you'd want to have a blockchain client on the server then, too, so it could seed what the client needs to work on
jast then you could go with a really straightforward captcha and "harden" it with a POW cycle
now I'm afraid someone will *actually* spin up a captcha service that is used to mine coins :) 15:01
timotimo well, there's already coin miner scripts to easily drop in your 'site
jast though that doesn't really work, you'd have to verify all of the results from the client to *know* there's no solution in there
and you can't exactly give them a full block to solve, that would take weeks 15:02
timotimo that's why i say "once every five years" ;)
jast yeah, but that would turn the whole exercise into "proof of nothing" (except every five years)
not only does it not earn any money most of the time, it also serves no other purpose most of the time 15:03
timotimo since mining a block means getting a hash that's below a certain number, you can just have the client return the lowest number it was able to get
jast but then you still have to check whether that's *really* the lowest number in the range you assigned them 15:04
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timotimo just have a minimum requirement that's solvable in a sensible timeframe 15:04
jast you do need to give them some kind of target 15:05
yeah
side note, crypto and hashing implemented in JS isn't as terribly slow as I thought it would be
it's plenty of slow, of course, but not "watch the bytes come in" slow 15:06
DrForr Look up partial hash collisions. They're a reasonable compromise.
jast POW usually uses a fixed prefix to target, which comes down to the same thing 15:07
"this many leading zero bits"
DrForr "Here's a sample bit of text. Match the first 5 LSBs of its MD5." or simiar.
jast: Yeah.
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timotimo jast: just take a wasm or asm.js implementation, that should be reasonably fast 15:09
jast wow, everyone supports wasm now 15:12
(except for android's stock browser and opera mini...) 15:13
El_Che oh wow, we're fighting again?
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jast a day without fighting is a day wasted 15:13
El_Che if perl5 and 6 would my children I would take away their iPads
maybe an idea for larry
jast if I had children they wouldn't be getting ipads in the first place 15:14
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El_Che jast: come back when you do :) 15:14
timotimo jast: fwiw, i'd suggest using a hash that can't be easily sped up by using the GPU, so that a potential DDoSer can't just implement your hash 1000x faster than any legit client would and overload your server anyway 15:15
moritz I have kids, and they don't have ipads :-)
timotimo also: people will be happy to see you're draining their smart phone batteries by 10% just to visit your site :)
jast it's not that bad. I'd target maybe five minutes of execution time on an average smart phone. ;) 15:16
El_Che: so, never? thanks, I'll pass :} 15:17
El_Che jast: good plan! :)
lizmat El_Che: nothing to see here
jast these are not the droids you are looking for. 15:18
move along.
lizmat El_Che :-) 15:19
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scimon Oh boy... Needing to do some frontend work. Installing node modules... Hopefully will be done before I head home. 15:22
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scimon ..... I hate node. I've just been reminded why I hate node. 15:27
DrForr is currently refactoring stuff into React/mui. I feel your pain, brota. 15:30
*brotha
timotimo oh, i haven't heard of mui. is that the new thing now?
jast I deeply distrust people who *like* node ;)
mst scimon: you might wish to consider trying yarn
I hear it's significantly less annoying than npm
jast "mui v1 is coming!" vote of confidence right there 15:31
scimon See I have always liked a lot of things about JS. I was playing about the Rhino years ago. But.... this is insane.
jast yeah, I don't exactly dislike JS
but everything that's been built *around* JS... yeah. 15:32
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jast though JS-the-language has a bunch of very puzzling properties, too 15:32
scimon Considering it was throw together in a VERY small amount of time it's impressive. 15:34
I love that it's a functional language pretending to be C.
ilmari it was originally going to have a lisp-like syntax and be called livescript, but netscape decided to ride the java hype wave and changed the syntax and name at the last minute 15:35
scimon Yeah. 15:37
(Things I don't miss. Finding the trailing comma that caused a JS file to explode in IE6) 15:38
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jast yeah, I was quite happy when we stopped supporting IE8 in my previous job, they changed that in IE9 15:48
buggable New CPAN upload: P5quotemeta-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz 15:52
lizmat Zoffix++ ^^^
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buggable New CPAN upload: P5index-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz 16:32
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[Coke] github.com/perl6/doc/blob/master/d...y.pod6#L91 - this pod isn't rendering in the way it was intended, I think. Was it supposed to be a L<> ? 16:48
docs.perl6.org/type/Any#method_list has the rendering
Note: this was caught by the "space after comma" xt 16:49
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buggable New CPAN upload: P5rindex-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz 17:02
El_Che lizmat is on a roll 17:03
lizmat yeah, finnicky differences in semantics 17:04
but otherwise pretty easy :-)
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El_Che I thought you wanted to migrate modules, didn't get the idea that you also meant core functions 17:07
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[Coke] I assume that having the core functions available makes it easier to make a p5 slang. 17:10
lizmat right 17:11
without the core functions, even with all of the standard modules, Perl 5 programmers would have a higher thresuold
*threshold
El_Che aaaah
ah slang
lizmat yes, and they would be needed for a P5 slang anyway 17:12
El_Che I was thnking "what's the use of core functions when you need to write p6 anyway"
lizmat I'm giving people options
you want to stick to P5's semantics of index/rindex
well, there you go: use P5index;
and you're set
and I'm sticking to a module per core function (basically) so that you can get a better idea of which core functions are using P5 semantics in a compilation uint 17:13
*unit
El_Che would something like "use v5" enable the slang and all the core functions? 17:17
so, you're just being agile :)
bit by bit
lizmat yup, that's the idea 17:18
Geth doc: 40b28b46b4 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/Any.pod6
Convert some C<>s to L<>s

So readers could easily click on types/routines they don't know and learn them		 17:19
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Any
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[Coke] zoffix++ 17:37
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novalinium Is there a way to debug a UTF-8 decoding error in IO::Socket::Async.bind-udp Suuply? 18:09
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timotimo yeah, you can use the utf8-c8 encoding for it, which will turn broken utf8 into something that looks funky when rendered to regular utf8, or back to what it originally was when rendered to utf8-c8 18:11
alternatively, use a :bin supply, do .decode('utf8') inside a try/catch, and output the original binary blob if something fails 18:12
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novalinium OK, so I use a bin adverb on the supply? 18:14
timotimo i think so 18:15
yes, indeed
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buggable New CPAN upload: P5length-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz 18:32
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buggable New CPAN upload: P5length-0.0.2.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.2.tar.gz 20:32
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cono is there any way to define class outside of unit module namespace? 20:44
lizmat m: class A { }; dd A.new
camelia A.new
lizmat cono: ^^ like that ? 20:45
cono when I do something like this unit module A:ver...; class B { } as a result I will have A::B 20:47
lizmat ah 20:48
moritz you can also declare class A::B { } directly
lizmat yeah, but he want just B I guess
cono but I don't know how to specify ver and author if I'm doing this w/o unit module
yeah
lizmat right
cono just B
github.com/cono/p6-supply-timeout/...imeout.pm6 20:49
something like this, but this do not compile :)
lizmat move the X::Supply::Timeout class within the Supply::Timeout class 20:51
move the :ver.... info to the class Supply::Timeout 20:52
cono would I be able to use QUIT { when X::Supply::Timeout, or should I use export trait ?
lizmat remove the module Supply::Timeout line
cono how to move :ver ?
I don't think I understand what :ver actually means 20:53
lizmat class Supply::Timeout:ver<0.0.1>:auth<cono [email@hidden.address] { ... }
cono ah
yeah, this works, thanks :) 20:55
another question. looks like making use-ok('Supply::Timeout'); my $su = Supply::Timeout.new; isa-ok($su, 'Supply::Timeout'); doensn't work
looks like because use doing eval"use" 20:56
I'm getting: Could not find symbol '&Timeout'
nevermind, rework it in another way :) 20:57
lizmat cono: perhaps you found a bug
perhaps: class Supply::Timeout:ver<0.0.1>:auth<cono [email@hidden.address] is export { ... } 20:58
timotimo is that how :auth is supposed to work? 21:00
cono export trait not resolving it :( 21:01
gfldex timotimo: I don't think we know that yet.
cono it looks like it importing class name but not in current namespace 21:02
psch m: module A { class B::C is export { } }; import A; use Test; isa-ok C.new, 'A::B::C' 21:04
camelia ok 1 - The object is-a '"A::B::C"'
cono m: module A { class B::C is export {} }; use Test; use-ok("A"); isa-ok A::B::C.new, 'A::B::C'; 21:07
camelia not ok 1 - A module can be use-d ok
# Failed test 'A module can be use-d ok'
# at <tmp> line 1
# Could not find A at line 1 in:
# /home/camelia/.perl6
# /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/site
# /home/camelia/rakudo-m-in…
psch cono: 'use' always looks for a file, can't really emulate that with camelia :/ 21:08
cono: i think more precisely it's the 'require' part of 'use' that looks for a file 21:09
cono m: module A { class B::C is export {} }; use Test; eval("import A"); isa-ok A::B::C.new, 'A::B::C'; 21:10
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
eval used at line 1. Did you mean 'EVAL', 'val'?
cono m: module A { class B::C is export {} }; use Test; EVAL("import A"); isa-ok A::B::C.new, 'A::B::C';
camelia ok 1 - The object is-a '"A::B::C"'
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cono hm, EVAL import works, strange that use-ok doesn't work then 21:11
psch s/require/need/ # whoops 21:12
m: module A { }; need A # that's the part of use that looks for a file 21:13
camelia ===SORRY!===
Could not find A at line 1 in:
/home/camelia/.perl6
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/site
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/vendor
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6
CompUnit::Reposi…
psch m: need Test; say &Test::isa-ok
camelia (Any)
cono pushed test which fails for me: github.com/cono/p6-supply-timeout
psch m: need Test; say Test::
camelia Test
psch m: need Test; say Test::.keys 21:14
camelia (&todo_output EXPORT &failure_output &output)
cono tried with `is export` doesn't work either
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psch cono: the use-ok passes? 21:15
cono yes
Supply::Timeout.new fails
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psch m: use Test; use-ok('newline :cr'); is $?NL, "\r" 21:17
camelia ok 1 - newline :cr module can be use-d ok
not ok 2 -
# Failed test at <tmp> line 1
# expected: "\r"
# got: "\n"
psch does use-ok actually affect the mainline..?
El_Che New rakudo pkgs for Linux: github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releas...g/v2018.01
psch cono: fwiw, the one module i wrote that also has tests does the use-ok test in a seperate test file, and does a normal 'use' for the next test file 21:19
cono that how I workarounded too :) 21:20
thanks for tip :) 21:21
Xliff_ .tell Zoffix HAH! I almost guessed Russian. 21:23
yoleaux Xliff_: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.
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El_Che lizmat: do you add it to the weekly? impoetant part is addition of opensuse packages 21:45
lizmat yes, will do :-) 21:46
El_Che thx
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Geth whateverable/master: 4 commits pushed by (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ 22:28
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Geth whateverable: 8bf0be40ea | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | maintenance/long-term-storage.p6
More aggressive compression

This saves about 21G of storage (≈⅓ shaved off). The midpoint is supposed to be in front of the cutoff point so that bisectable stumbles about the fast build at its first step. I haven't counted the actual number of commits, but it should be right. Even if not, it'll fix itself in a month or so.		 22:36
AlexDaniel hates his file manager for showing “G” 22:37
.oO( what is G? GiB? GB? )
 22:38
ilmari gibbons
grammes
lizmat googlots
ilmari gigagrammes
tadzik I think "G" stands for "Go use a different tool if the difference between 1000 and 1024 matters" :P 22:39
geekosaur gegenschein >.>
ilmari groots
tadzik . o O ( I am gibigroot ) 22:40
stmuk reading the backlog on the web has made me glad I've had mst on ignore for several years 22:43
AlexDaniel that's spacefm by the way
if somebody can recommend a better file manager I'd be happy, but everything I've seen so far is much less useful compared to spacefm 22:44
tadzik oh wow
I thought "that sounds a bit like pcmanfm, I wonder if they're related", and they are! 22:45
stmuk if people think there is any confusion about rakudup being an official rather than personal site I can put a disclaimer and/or remove Camelia branding
AlexDaniel: midnight commander! 22:46
timotimo stmuk: i'd like a disclaimer to be included, actually
AlexDaniel stmuk: I can hardly imagine myself using it, unfortunately. I'm too used to thumbnails and icons and stuff 22:47
I can assign a keyboard shortcut to *any* button in spacefm, so it's keyboard-heavy already
timotimo the background image in the text box of spacefm repeats %) 22:49
stmuk "disclaimer this website and associated software is not officially associated with the Rakudo Project and Perl foundation"
AlexDaniel timotimo: xD screenshot?
stmuk "disclaimer this website and any related software is not officially associated with the Rakudo Project and Perl foundation" 22:50
timotimo imgur.com/mJ4tyt4
stmuk ok?
timotimo at first glance that sounds okay
AlexDaniel ah, on the website :D 22:51
the project seems to be abandoned :( 22:52
(spacefm that is)
the main dev was on hiatus which is ok, but there was a promising spacefm-ng fork… dead now
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Geth whateverable: e53c6883bc | (Timo Paulssen)++ (committed by Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev) | maintenance/fetch-irc.p6
Add timings and debug info to fetch-irc script
 22:58
AlexDaniel timotimo: hehe
Geth whateverable: ec03e01cbd | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | maintenance/fetch-irc.p6
Note instead of saying
 23:00
stmuk Snowflake was in the Flight Club film and is a well known meme 23:01
anyway the content will migrate to something more positive when the joke wears thin to a invisible degree 23:02
Geth whateverable: 7f880a56bb | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | 2 files
Take the config from STDIN

  … Instead of assuming that it is located somewhere.		 23:04
stmuk and the font will be replaced :)
buggable New CPAN upload: Supply-Timeout-0.0.1.tar.gz by CONO cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/C/CO/...0.1.tar.gz 23:05
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Geth whateverable: 981c1dac2b | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | 2 files
Adapt code to the new config

See 7f880a56bb690626188405bd26bcee4e012de7d0		 23:13
whateverable: 7db29a7d05 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | bin/Reportable.p6
Don't autocorrect too much

Otherwise it's triggered when you talk to other bots.
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Geth whateverable: d7ac0c2818 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | 3 files
html-escape helper function

It's probably not entirely correct, but it does work a bit.		 23:19
whateverable: c9cac8c23e | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | bin/Reportable.p6
Typo
whateverable: 76ff3a5607 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | bin/Reportable.p6
Move directories correctly

It seems that this is the only way right now?
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stmuk mst: after that you are very lucky I didn't change it to "Prepare to be triggered like a Shouty Trouty grumpy old sysadmin snowflakes" 23:24
timotimo lucky because that'd have been grammatically incorrect, right? 23:25
Geth whateverable: a2f3d7c8e5 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | bin/Bloatable.p6
Adapt the code to the new bloaty output format
 23:27
whateverable: b74a7db73a | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | t/lib/Testable.pm6
Indicate that the bot process finished

This should make it easier to see segfaults when running tests.
Also, use the new stdin config (see 7f880a56bb690626188405bd26bcee4e012de7d0).
AlexDaniel omg, can't believe that all this stuff was changed
but never committed
bisectable6: uptime 23:28
bisectable6 AlexDaniel, No! It wasn't me! It was the one-armed man! Backtrace: gist.github.com/bcf71ec09b05732352...21ec05bb51
stmuk timotimo: probbably
AlexDaniel don't know which rakudo that is but it's probably old 23:29
kaboom!
23:29 quotable6 left, greppable6 left, coverable6 left, bloatable6 left, committable6 left, benchable6 left, unicodable6 left, squashable6 left, nativecallable6 left, releasable6 left, reportable6 left, statisfiable6 left, evalable6 left, bisectable6 left 23:36 Merfont joined 23:37 _Kaiepi left 23:54 |oLa| left 23:58 comborico1611 left

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