»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 May 2018.
thowe so I need this patch, or is there a way to tell rakudobrew to use clang? 00:03
jnthn There's probably a way to tell rakudobrew to build MoarVM master instead of the version currently suggested 00:05
buggable New CPAN upload: Pod-To-Pager-0.2.0.tar.gz by TYIL modules.perl6.org/dist/Pod::To::Pager:cpan:TYIL 00:06
jnthn The PR was merged, so that should suffice
tyil on docs.perl6.org/language/pod#Unicode, it shows the line Perl 6 makes considerable use of the E<laquo> and E<raquo> characters.
these two entities dont get converted when they're passed through perl6 --doc 00:07
jnthn Looks like the command may be rakudobrew moar-blead or some such
tyil they should become « and », but instead stay laquo and raquo
thowe hm. did rakudobrew build moar master and same problem. Did I do it wrong? 00:12
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MasterDuke thowe: might want to ask Kaiepi directly. he was active pretty recently, so good chance he's around 00:16
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thowe Kaiepi, any tips on getting running on OpenBSD 6.3? 00:28
Kaiepi you'll need to build dyncall and install it manually 00:33
install libuv from ports (not pkg, that version's too old) 00:34
then you can build rakudo with --moar-option=--has-dyncall --moar-option=--has-libuv --moar-option=--cc=clang
thowe if the pkg is too old is the port in the 6.3 branch?
Kaiepi yeah
also wherever you're running perl6, the partition its mounted on needs to have wxallowed set in /etc/fstab 00:35
thowe I'll give all that a try. 00:41
need a ports tree I guess ;P 00:42
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Xliff m: my token word { \w+ }; (".field" ~~ /<word> ** 1..3 % '.'/).gist.say 00:57
camelia 「field」
word => 「field」
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benjikun How do I use what's inside of a variable as the key when selecting something from a hash 04:55
e.g. my line is `$t6.process('topic', :topic<$topic_title>);`
where I want what's inside $topic_title to be used as the name of the key
I can't tell if I'm extremely dumb and missing something simple 04:56
geekosaur :topic($topic_title)
(note parens instead of angle brackets) 04:57
benjikun weird 04:58
didn't know you could use parenthesis there
geekosaur you can think of it as, whenever you have something surrounded by some kind of brackets attached to something else ("postcircumfix" is what perl 6 calls it), you can use <> in place of those brackets if you want to use a literal string there 04:59
so %foo{'bar'} can be written %foo<bar>, :foo('bar') can be written :foo<bar>, etc. 05:00
benjikun so there is no practical difference between %foo{'bar'} and %foo('bar') 05:01
geekosaur uh? %foo(bar) isn't valid. hashes use {} for associative indexing, as arrays use [] for positional indexing
colonpairs are a different thing; somewhat closely related to Hashes because they're effectively containers for Pairs (colonpairs being one of several syntaxes for Pairs), but not the same thing 05:02
m: :foo(1).WHAT
camelia ( no output )
geekosaur er
m: :foo(1).WHAT.say
camelia (Pair)
geekosaur m: (foo => 1).WHAT.say 05:03
camelia (Pair)
benjikun I see 05:05
thanks for the help
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thowe Kaiepi, So I installed libdyn. Installed libuv port. Ran rakudo with the options you gave me, and I get the exact same error... 05:32
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thowe I might not be calling config opt right 05:43
hm, doesn't seem to like that I am using clang(?) I'm giving up for now 05:47
benjikun Does supernovus still come on here? 05:49
lizmat .seen supernovus 05:59
yoleaux I saw supernovus 22 Apr 2016 23:27Z in #perl6: <supernovus> Well, I'm going to have to run. Have a great day/night everyone. I hope to fix up some of my long neglected libraries at some point when I'm not completely overloaded with work! :-)
Kaiepi what error do you get thowe? 06:09
benjikun oof 06:10
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jmerelo Just created the `zef` tag in StackOverflow stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/zef 07:28
Tag wiki page will be online soon, and probably very imperfect. Please help improve it. 07:29
You can also back-tag some Perl6 questions with zef.
This question is apparently the first of its kind stackoverflow.com/questions/510051...-in-matrix "I can do this pretty nicely in Perl6, how can I do it in some other language" 07:40
As in "some other language for native Perl6 speakers". I love that.
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tyil jmerelo: thanks 07:56
I wanted to tag my question with zef, but havent got enough rep to create tags
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jmerelo tyil: my pleasure. I think you get it with 1500. You'll get them in due time. 08:01
tyil yeah 08:02
I'm not too worried
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tyil I've been asking some questions lately regarding p6man, which I want to make use of in my (proposed) book 08:02
I wonder if I can alter my TPF grant proposal to include more time, many have told me 4 months won't cut it 08:03
jmerelo tyil: yep. Books always take longer than one initially intended.
tyil I've also been considering to add the use of gitlab or github to the book, as one commenter asked about 08:04
been testing out gitlab-ci with p6man
and boy is it awesome compared to travis
jmerelo tyil: that was my approach in my book: include everything you need to start to program: ssh, some command-line utilities...
tyil: but then, I don't think if that's right for a TPF grant. 08:05
tyil: I haven't tried gitlab-ci, but I'm happy with Travis...
tyil you dont need to use git or a git service to start, but they're pretty neat to use
with gitlab-ci you can specify which docker image to use, such as rakudo-star
suddenly you have an image that contains all the tools you need without manual setup 08:06
jmerelo tyil: but that's what we do in perl6/doc. There's a docker image, perl6-doccer, which we use to test.
tyil for an end-user, that sounds incredibly useful compared to having to manually set up Perl 6 in each travis build
jmerelo remembers I have to update the image to the latest perl6
tyil: you don't need to do that, actually. I mean, most people do since that's the "official" Travis image. I tried to change it, but no joy. 08:07
Either El_Che's packages or docker images would be much better for that...
tyil the official image isnt great for end users, building it takes about 7 minutes
thats a long time to wait for a project whose tests run in a couple seconds 08:08
also, perl6/doc uses github.com/perl6/doc/blob/master/u...is-test.sh to get a custom docker image
jmerelo That's why in perl6/doc we don't use (since February). We have 3 CIs set up, shippable uses rakudo packages, the two Travis use either a binary or perl6-doccer
tyil not friendly at all for end users
jmerelo tyil: That's only becasuse it's got two different CIs set up. 08:09
tyil gitlab.com/tyil/perl6-pod-to-pager...lab-ci.yml
I can add a different CI by just adding another key in the yaml file
jmerelo tyil: this one is friendly hub.docker.com/r/jjmerelo/test-perl6/
tyil the artifacts is completely optional, and just builds a zip with the sources
the docker containers are friendly, but travis is not friendly in using a different docker image 08:10
it requires menial manual labour to divert from their default images
jmerelo tyil: but you are right, gitlab approach is a bit simpler than Travis, since you can specify the image directly. In Travis you have to issue a few more commands.
tyil: can you use gitlab-ci from GitHub? 08:11
tyil I'll probably update assixt some time in the future to add a .gitlab-ci.yaml
I'm not sure if that's easily done
I've dropped Github from personal use for future projects 08:12
gitlab has been objectively superiour in almost every aspect to me
and its not owned by a company known for shitting on their users in every possible position (though this was less of an issue when I decided to go gitlab) 08:13
jmerelo tyil: I still have to take the step. Don't think it will happen any time soon. I have more than 500 repos in GitHub
tyil I dont remove the github stuff because they're established urls 08:14
but my new projects go on gitlab, and bigger projects that I still work on will probably move there for new work
it needs better perl 6/pod support though, that's one of the things I lack on gitlab 08:15
also, thanks for your answers on SO (and everyone else going around answering), I can continue on my projects again 08:16
jmerelo tyil: it's not in GitHub for the time being either...
tyil what is? 08:17
jmerelo tyil: thanks for asking :-) I mean, it helps the community to have public question and answers
tyil I'll probably be asking many more questions over the course of (at least 4 months)
jmerelo tyil: the Pod support. Your PR was reverted...
tyil ah
jmerelo tyil: so you got the grant. Congratulations.
tyil not that I know yet
jmerelo tyil: then, good luck :-) 08:18
tyil I saw something about the Pod PR, it needing another project's support as well
for which we already had a PR open as well
which was also being completely ignored
jmerelo tyil: right. The linguist one. It's there, sitting pretty.
tyil: sorry, the markdown one.
tyil I should poke [Coke] about the grant to see if he can approve some of the comments on the TPF blog (and whether a proposal may be updated once posted) 08:19
which I guess has been done right about now :p
jmerelo tyil: I don't think so. But once it's approved you can change stuff if your manager approves. 08:20
tyil ah
that sounds alright to me
jmerelo tyil: I don't know about duration. That's pretty much baked in.
tyil: but once you get, it's probably a matter of talking to your manager. As long as you don't request more money, I can probably be done. 08:21
tyil: BTW, you're going to Arnhem, right? I guess we'll meet there. 08:22
tyil yes I do
samcv will be coming along as well
jmerelo tyil: that's great :-)
tyil I even have a talk scheduled at the NLPW 08:23
jmerelo tyil: and it's Squashaton weekend, so I'll tie you all to a laptop and will assign perl6/doc issues to solve :-)
tyil but I have modules to make!
jmerelo tyil: not that weekend! It's SQUASHathon weekend! 08:24
squashable6: status
squashable6 jmerelo, Next SQUASHathon in 12 days and ≈1 hour (2018-07-07 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
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tyil .tell jnthn would you have time to talk to me about something around 8PM paris time today? 09:24
yoleaux tyil: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
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jmerelo Calling a vote on the style of hashes definition in the documentation: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2117#i...-399742781 09:32
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benjikun Why do some Perl6 modules get put into the Perl6 organization on GitHub? 09:41
are there any requirements for those modules or are they just put there in the first place
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jmerelo benjikun: when they are "abandoned" by their authors or simply started from the Perl 6 organization 09:53
benjikun: also, when authors become part of the Perl organization they move it there. They are sometimes modules included in the Rakudo Star release, but not always.
benjikun: baseline is, let's keep a close eye on them, since they are important. 09:54
benjikun jmerelo: Ah, thanks for the response.
jmerelo benjikun: sure :-) My pleasure
Geth doc/master: 8 commits pushed by (JJ Merelo)++ 10:03
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El_Che m 10:20
jmerelo El_Che: hi!
jmerelo goes AFK and CTS (close-to-swimmingpool) 10:43
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benjikun .seen zoffix 10:49
yoleaux I saw Zoffix 23 Jun 2018 16:02Z in #perl6: <Zoffix> geekosaur: ToddAndMargo, `'abcdef'.match(/../, :g)` is better written (and is slightly more performant) as `'abcdef'.comb: 2`
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parv is it possible to move rakudo install directory to another (e.g mv ~/x ~/y/x # & expect perl6 to work) 11:47
MasterDuke parv: not now. but it wouldn't be impossible to implement, and some people have done a little bit of work toward it 11:48
parv ok. thanks, MasterDuke. 11:49
AlexDaniel benjikun: there's also this organization: github.com/perl6-community-modules 11:50
benjikun: and I see that some modules are in perl6-community-modules/ and others are in perl6/
that's a good question actually… should we move some stuff to perl6-community-modules ? 11:53
Pod-To-HTML p6-sake DBIish perl6-lwp-simple perl6-pod-to-bigpage gtk-simple perl6-http-server-threaded Perl6-MIME-Base64 perl6-http-server-async form perl6-http-server WebService-HazIP 11:56
just 12 of them to move, if we decide to
parv zef's README says to install it, do "cd zef && perl6 -I. bin/zef install .". Is the second . where zef command & its lib are installed? How do I specify an alternative install directory?
AlexDaniel parv: if I'm getting it right, it is calling zef (bin/zef) to install itself (.) 11:57
benjikun AlexDaniel: I haven't seen that before, is it mentioned anywhere on perl6.org? 11:59
AlexDaniel benjikun: I don't know 12:00
benjikun: but to clarify, I think “abandoned” modules end up in perl6-community-modules
parv hmm ... I don't see any provision (in resources/*) to install elsewhere; have to relocate the files myself. 12:01
benjikun I wonder what the age distribution for users of Perl6 look like
AlexDaniel benjikun: why would that matter? 12:03
benjikun It just seems like an interesting survey question 12:04
I (perhaps wrongfully) associate "Perl," meaning Perl5, with older programmers 12:05
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AlexDaniel benjikun: I guess I'm the example of a younger programmer, possibly the youngest in the dev team (in my twenties) 12:08
benjikun AlexDaniel: I'm younger than you 12:09
AlexDaniel :) 12:10
benjikun I'm attempting to visualize Perl6's community 12:12
I would've expected more than 418 coming out of this GitHub search: github.com/search?q=repos%3A%3E1&a...mp;l=perl6 12:13
Searching for users of Perl6 with greater than 1 Repos
AlexDaniel it says that I have no perl6 repos :( 12:15
benjikun hm 12:16
Do you tag them with perl6?
AlexDaniel well, it doesn't count that one as my repo: github.com/perl6/whateverable/
and this one is tagged but has no code files: github.com/AlexDaniel/6lang-golf-cheatsheet 12:17
benjikun Hmm
AlexDaniel and the rest is not very public really
or is in perl6/ org
benjikun AlexDaniel: looking at your website, I'd guess you're into computer security? 12:18
AlexDaniel benjikun: I study Computer Systems Engineering 12:22
benjikun ah 12:23
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parv FWIW I just saw the messsage at the end of zef install which notes that it was installed in subdir of rakudo install. works-for-me. 12:32
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sarna what does a backslash do here? `method foo(\s) {...}` 12:59
araraloren_ sarna it's sigilless variable 13:05
m: my \s = 22; say s; 13:06
camelia 22
sarna araraloren_: when should I use them?
El_Che a constant?
sarna oh, makes sense 13:07
don't you uppercase all the constants?
araraloren_ docs.perl6.org/language/variables#...riables%29
El_Che (see the question mark :) )
sarna thinks harder
El_Che sarna: I don't
sarna: It looks like C cargo culting
araraloren_ hmm, like constant
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sarna El_Che: :^) alright 13:08
I've never liked that convention anyway
araraloren_ If I declare constant with `constant`, I will uppercase that things 13:10
m: constant PI = 3.14; say PI;
camelia 3.14
araraloren_ but with siglless variable, it's a special kind variable, IMO 13:11
sarna is `constant c = 1` any different from `my \c := 1`? 13:12
araraloren_ IDK 13:13
El_Che they are both immutable
scoping probably?
sarna do constants get any special treatment? constant constants
ah 13:14
araraloren_ lifetime difference ?
El_Che to be sure, do
m: constant \c = 1
camelia ( no output )
El_Che :)
araraloren_ m: constant a = 20; BEGIN say a;
camelia 20
sarna m: constant \c := 1
camelia ( no output )
sarna just to be sure
araraloren_ m: my \a = 20; BEGIN say a;
camelia (Mu)
El_Che m: constant \c = 1; c = 2
camelia Cannot modify an immutable Int (1)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
AlexDaniel sigilless variables are not exactly constants
El_Che it's about the container, isn't? 13:15
sarna araraloren_: what's this magic BEGIN thing?
araraloren_ so, constant is available in BEGIN phrase
sarna oh oki, I'll read about it 13:16
araraloren_ It's some special block
AlexDaniel it's somewhat similar to “val” in scala, and those are typically not uppercased as far as I know
or val in Java with lombok
sarna yeah, or let in Rust (without mut) 13:17
araraloren_ haha, but Rust can define the variable more than once
I hate this design
sarna I mean, you can let twice
you can't `let x = 2; x = 3;` 13:18
araraloren_ yeah, I know 13:19
sarna is it good practice to use sigilless for immutable variables?
I kinda like sigils
El_Che sigils put emphasis on the container, imho 13:20
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sarna ohh 13:24
AlexDaniel sarna: well, you decide. I don't see code like this very often, but IIRC TimToady uses (or at least used) it a lot 13:26
araraloren_ I am not using that often too :) 13:27
sarna I'm used to following the rules, I feel lost if I have to choose '^ ^
araraloren_ hmm, you don't have to choose, just use what you like 13:28
.oO( so what do I like? )
El_Che pistacchio is a safe bet 13:30
AlexDaniel googles “Pistachio nut allergy” 13:31
sarna pistachios are so expensive though
mst sarna: I've been enjoying doing 'my $x := 2;' 13:32
sarna with sigils I know if it's a collection or a scalar 13:33
and that was my biggest problem with other dynamic languages
hmm, is it a string? a list of strings? a nested list?
mst the difference between "for x in str:" and "for x in str,:" in python has always been troubling to me. 13:34
sarna and then I'd get a "can't index an integer" at runtime :X
El_Che on lang with strong typing it's less of a problem (or not at all)
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araraloren_ but you don't know what $x is in Perl6 too. I think 13:36
sarna I had the most problems with it in Clojure, which is strongly typed
El_Che sarna: really? That kind of problem is catched at compile time, e.g. in go 13:37
sarna (I (think [I (might (have #(gotten [lost (in [the (parens [though])])])))]))
El_Che: runtime for Clojure
pmurias AlexDaniel: the demographics of Perl 6 programmers are sort of interesting
sarna it's strongly typed, but dynamic
El_Che sarna: is sounds as "it is, but not really" 13:38
sarna El_Che: yeah :)
it'll complain about types, at runtime
JS generally won't 13:39
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El_Che pmurias: go on? 13:42
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pmurias El_Che: I don't know what they are, I'm just interested in knowing them ;) 13:43
El_Che hehe
pmurias benjikun: one interesting thing to measure about the Perl 6 community is what languages are the people coming in 13:44
El_Che or the pessismist view: going :) 13:45
and which langs they use next to perl6
sarna pmurias: is there any perl6 survey? 13:46
El_Che there a a generic perl one, but it was flawed 13:47
AlexDaniel 5lawed
benjikun The perl one only mentions perl6 in one question sadly
sarna :(
benjikun pmurias: Would be nice if we could get more information on these kinds of things
how about we make a Perl6 survey?
sarna I'm in 13:48
benjikun I could whip up a google form
sarna how to be a successful language in 2018:
1. have a cute mascot (go, rust)
2. conduct a survey
we have a mascot already
benjikun we're halfway there 13:49
sarna I think the survey is the missing piece
El_Che find a niche?
sarna have you seen better glue?
AlexDaniel benjikun: well, go for it? Perhaps come here with a list of questions/answers for some feedback before actually setting up a survey, I'm sure there will be some nice suggestions 13:50
sarna benjikun: you can check out Clojure's and Rust's surveys, they're pretty good 13:51
benjikun AlexDaniel sarna: Will do
AlexDaniel benjikun++
El_Che AlexDaniel: where are you based, btw? 13:55
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AlexDaniel El_Che: Estonia 14:01
El_Che the North! 14:02
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benjikun docs.google.com/forms/d/19qSBpGWWc...sp=sharing 14:05
Here's what I have so far
anyone can drop in and make any changes / add new questions 14:06
sarna_ benjikun: maybe favourite/least favourite perl6 features?
benjikun hmm, yeah
What would you put for options?
sarna_ I'd just let people write it themselves 14:07
AlexDaniel benjikun: I'd recommend listing Spacemacs and Emacs separately
sarna_ and maybe "most wanted feature"
AlexDaniel benjikun: because a lot of spacemacs users are using it with vim keybinging so it's not exactly Emacs
benjikun AlexDaniel: will do
sarna_: sounds good 14:08
AlexDaniel benjikun: btw there's a list of editors and their perl6 support, maybe you'd want to add something from it: github.com/perl6/user-experience/issues/19 14:09
benjikun ah, good idea 14:10
sarna_ benjikun: "if you have used zef, do you like it?" 14:11
benjikun: "do you use any authoring tools (eg mi6)?"
also maybe "do you use perl6 at work" but I don't think we'd get above 5% on that 14:12
AlexDaniel benjikun: “how did you install perl 6?” – Distribution packages (e.g. `apt install perl6`), – Rakudo Star, – Monthly Rakudo release, – rakudobrew
sarna_ benjikun: maybe "do you plan to try to use perl6 at work?"
timotimo maybe make a distinction between "officially" and "unofficially" 14:13
i.e. someone who writes ten one-liners a day to make their work more efficient would say "unofficially", but someone who develops a perl6 app/service for a client would say "officially"
sarna_ benjikun: "what areas do you work in?"
I don't know if all answers would qualify blog.rust-lang.org/images/2016-06-..._areas.png 14:14
AlexDaniel benjikun: maybe something like: “Have you used Perl 6 in school or university?” – Yes, as suggested by course materials; – Yes, I chose to use it myself; – I study but had no chance to use it; – I'm not studying
sarna_ also, I'd include one field where people would just say what they'd like to add themselves
AlexDaniel although I'd expect there are very few people who'd be able to give a useful answer to that
sarna_ AlexDaniel: I don't think any universities use perl6 (unless they allow any language and you just write perl6) 14:15
my university will probably be like this and I'm planning on sneaking some perl6 into my projects :^) 14:16
AlexDaniel sarna_: I've used it very successfully for a compilers/parsers course
sarna_: and a little bit of stuff for research that I did here was in perl 6
sarna_ AlexDaniel: really? whoa, I slurp my words back then 14:17
AlexDaniel sarna_: well, I chose to use it myself, but it was very welcome :)
sarna_ AlexDaniel: ah, makes sense :) 14:18
AlexDaniel also there's a chance I'd give a “guest” lecture about perl 6 next year for that same course
sarna_ oo, good luck!
benjikun sarna_: I'm not sure about what else to add to "What do you utilize Perl6 for?" 14:19
it was my offshoot of your idea
I have web development, general scripting, data science ... 14:20
sarna_ benjikun: have you seen this image I sent?
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benjikun yeah, I see it 14:21
some don't apply
sarna_ yeah, definitely
I'd maybe add compilers/parsers
benjikun mk
sarna_ text processing?
benjikun some of these are subsets of others 14:22
web scraping could be considered text processing, sorta
sarna_ yup
hankache hello #perl6
yoleaux 19 Jun 2018 14:11Z <lizmat> hankache: I've unslipped a c in the weekly
sarna_ o/
hankache .tell lizmat: Thanks a lot
yoleaux hankache: What kind of a name is "lizmat:"?!
sarna_ :D 14:23
hankache hi sarna_
seen lizmat
.seen lizmat 14:24
yoleaux I saw lizmat 14:23Z in #perl6-dev: <lizmat> mostly mentioned in comments
hankache .tell lizmat Thanks a lot
yoleaux hankache: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
lizmat hankache: you're welcome
yoleaux 14:24Z <hankache> lizmat: Thanks a lot
14:27 sarna_ left 14:28 sarna_ joined
AlexDaniel benjikun: well, I just realized I can edit it myself, haha 14:28
benjikun: sorry for being dumb :) 14:29
benjikun no problem, heh
What answer choices should I put for "Where did you find out about Perl6, originally?" 14:32