»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 May 2018.
Geth p6-sake: AlexDaniel self-assigned Running `sake` without arguments should run task `default` github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/15
AlexDaniel self-assigned Dependency tree visualization with graphviz github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/14

Rename internal make_task to make-task		 00:00
raschipi Perl 6 can convert one into the other anyway.
tobs ToddAndMargo: I can relate, but after some time of using perl, my usage of "unless" in conversational English went up (from zero), too. 00:02
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ToddAndMargo I usually hear "unless" in English as some part of an equivocation, so if I use "not" it is very direct 00:03
BUt as with all things Perl, there is always 1001 ways to do anything! 00:04
I thought I understood how to find how many arguments where on the command line. `if @*ARGS.elems > 0 ` throws "Dynamic variable @*ARGV not found" 00:06
docs.perl6.org/routine/args 00:07
jnthn Looks like you typed @*ARGV instead of @*ARGS
ToddAndMargo mumble, mumble, mumble 00:08
What is wrong with this one: `&::($RunSpecific)();` No such symbol '' 00:11
I don't see me using any single quotes
geekosaur it's an empty string, with the single quotes part of the error message to set off the symbol it's looking for? 00:13
ToddAndMargo I just found my typo. I am testing 00:14
geekosaur hm, actually it says that for any not found symbol, so that may be showing a bug 00:15
m: my $RunSpecific = 'glup'; say &::($RunSpecific)();
camelia No such symbol ''
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
geekosaur m: sub glup { 1 }; my $RunSpecific = 'glup'; say &::($RunSpecific)();
camelia 1
ToddAndMargo `::($RunSpecific)();` is the correct syntax. 00:17
geekosaur rakudobugged the bad error message 00:18
ToddAndMargo I am trying to side step EVAL and run the name of a sub I pick up from the command line.
`::("$RunSpecific")();` throws "No such symbol 'GetAWSCleaner'" (Get "GetAWSCleaner" was copied and pasted from the sub's name.) 00:20
raschipi You could declare MAIN subs and have literal strings as the first argument, and calling './program subcommand' would call one of those for you. 00:21
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ToddAndMargo &::($RunSpecific)(); Throws No such symbol '' 00:22
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geekosaur yeh, that's what I reported 00:22
that's not you doing it wrong (they should do about the same thing, same as you don;t need to precede sub names with & normally), that's the error message being wrong 00:23
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ToddAndMargo This is what I am trying to convert from Perl 5: `else { eval "$RunSpecific"; }` And get around the See No Monkey's pragma. Any workarounds 00:24
geekosaur m: sub glup { 1 }; my $RunSpecific = '&glup'; say ::($RunSpecific)(); 00:25
camelia 1
ToddAndMargo `::('&' ~ $RunSpecific)();` No such symbol '&GetAWSCleaner' I can't win. Sniffle! 00:26
raschipi Maybe it's telling you the truth, there's no &GetAWSCleaner. Where is it being defined? 00:27
ToddAndMargo I could have typo'ed it. Ahhh poop (not my exact word. I transposed two letters! 00:28
Thank you! 00:29
Converting from P5, when "index" can't find something, it return "-1". In p6 is it always a "nil"? 00:32
raschipi Yes 00:34
timotimo "with" and "index" is a good combo 00:35
ToddAndMargo Thank you! Me got a bunch of corrections to make!
timotimo with index $bloop, $bleep -> $found-position { say "found $bleep in $bloop at $found-position" } else { say "didn't find it" }
ToddAndMargo This is what I am converting `if ( index $Rev, "rc" ) > -1 {` and since I only want to know if "rc" is in the line, me thinks it would be more p6-ish just to ` if m/rc/` instead. Your thoughts? 00:37
timotimo i prefer .contains
ToddAndMargo oops `if $Rev ~~ /rc/` 00:38
timotimo if $Rev.contains("rc") { }
ToddAndMargo even easier! Thank you!
p6-sake: 4972a25408 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | lib/Sake.pm6
Rework `file` sub to allow body to accept a Task

This was an oops in 8102fcb173dd7e67b91d38609ec0a78f49e745ad.
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hythm_ p6: my $ge = ">="; 6 $ge 7 # how can I use $ge here so the statement becomes "6 >= 7" 01:02
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Two terms in a row
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my $ge = ">="; 67⏏5 $ge 7 # how can I use $ge here so th
expecting any of:
infix
infix stopper
statement end
…
raschipi hythm_: Can't. 01:04
[Coke] well, EVAL 01:05
hythm_ I tried EVAL, got two terms ina row error
timotimo m: my $ge = &[>=]; say $ge(6, 7) 01:06
camelia False
MasterDuke m: my $ge = ">="; say "6 $ge 7".EVAL
camelia False
lookatme what is the &[] mean ? 01:10
m: say &[==];
camelia sub infix:<==> ($?, $?, *%) { #`(Sub+{is-pure}+{Precedence}|38542992) ... }
lookatme m: say &[|];
camelia sub infix:<|> (|) { #`(Sub+{is-pure}+{Precedence}|50844144) ... }
lookatme m: say &[.]; 01:11
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Malformed postfix call
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say &[.7⏏5];
timotimo one way to name an infix operator
lookatme m: say &[!];
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Negation metaoperator not followed by valid infix
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say &[!7⏏5];
expecting any of:
argument list
infix
infix noun
infix stopper…
lookatme oh
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hythm_ I dont think EVAL would help in this case, I created a snippet to help explain what I want to do better: (the issue is in the last multi sub) 01:17
gist.github.com/hythm7/74a5290d574...708a27d989
timotimo would it be okay to have my $condition = * => *; instead? 01:18
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timotimo m: my $condition = ">=; say &infix:["$condition"](5, 6); 01:19
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Cannot use variable $condition in declaration to initialize itself
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my $condition = ">=; say &infix:["$7⏏5condition"](5, 6);
expecting any of:
double quotes…
timotimo m: my $condition = ">="; say &infix:["$condition"](5, 6);
camelia Use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context.
Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.
in code at <tmp> line 1
5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:…
timotimo ah, of course, that'd have to be begin time
hythm_ I dont understand * => * looks like a place holder to $condition args, but yeah that would be ok 01:24
timotimo * >= * is equivalent to -> $a, $b { $a >= $b } 01:25
i.e. it's a piece of code
hythm_ noted
timotimo we call those "WhateverCode" or refer to it as "whatever currying"
whatevercode can be more than just a single operator, and can be between one and as many placeholders as you want 01:26
so * >= 5 is also a valid WhateverCode
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hythm_ makes sense, Thanks for clarification, I tried a few things with $condition set to * => * but still did not work for me (getting same two terms in a row error), will try more 01:32
timotimo you need to use $condition as if it were a sub 01:33
i.e. $condition($one, $other)
hythm_ hmm
timotimo also, i think for versions you might want "before" and "after"?
hm, though there's no "before or equal" word i don't think 01:34
maybe >= is fine
hythm_ ok, will try that. I appreciate the suggestions and help, thank you 01:36
timotimo you're welcome 01:37
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tbrowder_ in p5 i can have a hash element like “key => \$val” but how do i do that in p6? my goal is to deref the val upon key lookup to see the current value of $val. 02:11
raschipi You want to bind the value instead of asigning it, is that it? 02:14
geekosaur bind the container, sounds like
raschipi Yeah, the container. 02:15
lookatme m: my %foo; %foo{1} = %{1 => 2, 3 => 4}; %foo{2} := %{5 => 6, 7 => 8}; dd %foo; 02:20
camelia Hash %foo = {"1" => ${"1" => 2, "3" => 4}, "2" => {"5" => 6, "7" => 8}}
lookatme not much difference, seems like
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geekosaur I think you bind individual elements, rather than assigning Pairs? 02:22
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geekosaur m: my %h; my $x = 1; %h<a> = 5; %h<b> := $x; dd %h; $x = 2; dd %h 02:23
camelia Hash %h = {:a(5), :b(1)}
Hash %h = {:a(5), :b(2)}
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ToddAndMargo How do I do an array consisting of two elements per index? p6 'my @x; push @x= ["a", "1"]; push @x= ["b", "2"]; say @x;' [b 2] 02:45
joya array of arrays 02:46
in that code you gave, only the assignment is meaningful 02:48
think of it as: @x = ["a", "1"]; push @x
the push part is not doing anything
i think what you want is more like, @x.push( ["a", "1"] ) 02:49
then @x.push( [ "b", "2" ] )
ToddAndMargo checking 02:50
joya the square brackets are the internal arrays -- each one is an element of the array @x
also abbreviated as @x.push: ["a", "1"] 02:51
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ToddAndMargo Thank you. And I do know better. Getting a bit tired. $ p6 'my @x; push @x, ["a", "1"]; push @x,["b", "2"]; say @x;' [[a 1] [b 2]] 02:52
joya 👍 02:53
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benjikun tyil: Sorry about LoneStar not being included, didn't know this was a thing 03:42
It's a little late to add an option, I'd say, but we'll definitely throw it in on the next survey
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turdmonkey Hello. 03:58
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benjikun turdmonkey: Howdy 04:06
turdmonkey Does anyone find think it's funny how you can read Perl 6 almost exactly like English? 04:08
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benjikun turdmonkey: I like it when that's possible 04:18
it's surely not always with Perl6, but the option is there
turdmonkey Well yes, not always
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benjikun I know what you mean, though 04:19
turdmonkey Try reading all of those sigils and funny operators out loud haha
<<+>>
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benjikun This is perhaps a stupid question, and is obvious for all of us 04:28
but how do newcomers know to use Zef as the tool to install modules
turdmonkey I got the book, "perl 6 fundamentals" and it said so in the beginning, when setting up the perl 6 environment 04:29
benjikun True, it is mentioned regularly at the beginning of books and beginner's guides 04:30
Well, it also does explicitly reference zef under the "Modules" page in the docs 04:31
turdmonkey I'm excited for "Learning Perl 6", which will probably demonstrate zef as well
benjikun Maybe we should put a reference to the modules docs page on the frontpage of modules.perl6.org
I'm trying to discover any things newbies might miss 04:32
turdmonkey Pointing newbies toward Rakudo-Star is useful
And always having a short and quick beginner tutorial that utilizes a cool module that requires zef. 04:33
benjikun Perhaps we could put a link titled "What next?" or some variation on that at the bottom of each of the installation instructions for rakudostar here: rakudo.org/files 04:34
or a link at the bottom that says "Learn more about what's included with Rakudo Star" 04:36
There's a box similar to that on the downloads page @ perl6.org 04:38
turdmonkey oh man I just discovered GTK::Simple 04:49
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turdmonkey pretty much the only thing I don't use perl 5 for is GUI stuff. Not that I do GUI stuff often(hardly ever), but Perl 6 supporting a real, high-quality GUI Framework would be sweet 04:50
benjikun turdmonkey: Were you the one that requested that in the survey? 04:51
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benjikun I saw that, and I'd agree 04:52
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benjikun jmerelo: Welcome back 04:53
turdmonkey benjikun, No, but it's been on my mind for a while now 04:54
jmerelo benjikun: hi. Checking out answers to the survey. Quite a lot! 04:55
turdmonkey What is something perl absolutely excels at? Data munging! What do people love? graphs!
benjikun jmerelo: Yeah, I'm quite pleased with them 04:56
turdmonkey: I'm planning on generating some custom charts for the survey questions a little after it appears on P6Weekly, so that everyone gets an opportunity 04:57
alongside considering a repository for the .csv and chart generators for each round of surveys we do
turdmonkey I think that a huge area where Perl 6 can shine is data visualization 05:00
jmerelo If you've got the time, please cast your vote in the hash declaration style poll github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2117#i...-399742781
El_Che benjikun: I bundle zef in rakudo-pkg (and a script to install it at home). 05:04
I think people discover zef soone enough 05:05
the only danger is them picking als variants like panda, ufo from older posts
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El_Che or start with rakudobrew becasue it sounds like perlbrew 05:05
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turdmonkey $var.kv, kv is "key/value" method? 05:07
benjikun El_Che: good points, I know people who have done that with panda
jmerelo turdmonkey: right. 05:08
turdmonkey well that's quite nifty
jmerelo This question is still unanswered in StackOverflow: list of encodings that Perl6 understands stackoverflow.com/questions/414332...nderstands 05:10
turdmonkey How is Perl 6's speed now?
jmerelo turdmonkey: better ;-) 05:11
El_Che ymmv depending on what you do. Having easy concurrency helps on that area 05:12
benjikun jmerelo: About the hash debate, I'd agree with labster on consistency paralleling defining arrays (i.e. my @a = []; being similar to {}) 05:17
As for why {} is so much slower, can that be improved, or is that option inherently slower than the others
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benjikun too bad there aren't more symbols on most keyboards, ha 05:25
El_Che benjikun: i.ytimg.com/vi/FVfiujbGLfM/hqdefault.jpg 05:29
benjikun El_Che: lol
jmerelo benjikun: it will probably be improved. Did you vote at the poll? 05:30
benjikun jmerelo: Yeah, I did 05:31
geekosaur benjikun, theres a bug open for it already
jmerelo benjikun: great! I'll leave it open for another 24 hours, and change documentation after that. 05:32
There are a bunch of Perl 6 unanswered questions in StackOverflow. You might want to take a look at them stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/perl6 In some cases, they give you interesting insight on the working of the language 05:34
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El_Che jmerelo: quite a discussion about hashes :) 05:43
jmerelo El_Che: that's the kind of thing I love about Perl 6 and the community. It's also the kind of issues I hate. 05:44
El_Che herding cats?
jmerelo El_Che: herding butterflies. 05:45
El_Che cats are less fragile :)
jmerelo El_Che: precisely. 05:46
El_Che academics love precise language :) 05:47
jmerelo jmerelo: :-)
El_Che (and to talk to themselves it seems) :) 05:48
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jmerelo El_Che: we don't talk to ourselves, we mumble :-) 05:48
El_Che mumblemumblereferenceneededmumble 05:49
jmerelo El_Che: that's wikipedians. Almost, but not quite.
El_Che <this perl 6 doc is incomplete or has unresolved issues> 05:50
jmerelo El_Che: academics would be quite "You need to compare Perl 6 to every single language in town. The font you are using for code is too small, except when it's too big. You are not mentioning my Very Important Contribution to the realm of languages" 05:52
El_Che lol
train arrived
bbl
jmerelo El_Che: have a nice trip
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El_Che jmerelo: just commute to work :) 06:20
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tyil benjikun: dont sweat it 07:51
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jmerelo .tell phdphil A lazy list could be infinite. Kind of hard to do combinations on that thing... 07:53
yoleaux jmerelo: I'll pass your message to phdphil.
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buggable New CPAN upload: App-Assixt-0.4.0.tar.gz by TYIL modules.perl6.org/dist/App::Assixt:cpan:TYIL 08:56
tyil neat
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buggable New CPAN upload: cro-http-0.7.6.tar.gz by JNTHN modules.perl6.org/dist/Cro::HTTP:cpan:JNTHN 09:16
New CPAN upload: cro-core-0.7.6.tar.gz by JNTHN modules.perl6.org/dist/Cro::Core:cpan:JNTHN
New CPAN upload: cro-tls-0.7.6.tar.gz by JNTHN modules.perl6.org/dist/Cro::TLS:cpan:JNTHN
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buggable New CPAN upload: cro-0.7.6.tar.gz by JNTHN modules.perl6.org/dist/cro:cpan:JNTHN 09:26
New CPAN upload: cro-websocket-0.7.6.tar.gz by JNTHN modules.perl6.org/dist/Cro::WebSocket:cpan:JNTHN
New CPAN upload: cro-zeromq-0.7.6.tar.gz by JNTHN modules.perl6.org/dist/Cro::ZeroMQ:cpan:JNTHN
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buggable New CPAN upload: Geo-Coordinates-UTM-0.9.0.tar.gz by KJPYE cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/K/KJ/...9.0.tar.gz 09:36
jmerelo Wow 09:42
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Jon__ Hello:), i tried to install moose and when i run my perl program i get this error 09:49
Can't locate Moose.pm in @INC (you may need to install the Moose module) (@INC contains: /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl /usr/share/perl5/site_perl /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl /usr/share/perl5/vendor_perl /usr/lib/perl5/core_perl /usr/share/perl5/core_perl .) at .\test.pl line 6. BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at .\test.pl line 6.
Can someoen tell me what i'm doing wrong?
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Ulti you need to tell your perl where your cpan modules are installed try -I to manually do that on the command line 10:10
your second marginal error was asking a perl5 question on a perl6 chat, you might have more luck with #perl 10:11
though there are some p5 people on here too
scimon Jon__: sounds like you need to install Moose `cpanm Moose` should do the job. But as Ulti says the #perl chat might be a better place to ask. 10:16
jnthn I think they left :)
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scimon Ah well. 10:23
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Zoffix benjikun: but you don't define arrays with `my @a = [];` you just write it as `my @a;`. Same with hashes 10:50
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Zoffix benjikun: and yeah, {} can be improved. If you write it explicitly as circumfix:<{ }> it becomes fast, so I suspect it's the left over block from when we're trying to guess whether we're making a hash or a block that's to blame. There's another issue where this form of guessing could be implemented better, so I think once that's done the speed loss will resolve itself :) 10:53
mmm... the "Recent blog posts" needs fixing: perl6.org/ 10:54
Right now it appears to shows comments from medium.com as new blogs... "Jo Christian Oterhals: Yes, you’re right." "Jo Christian Oterhals: Thanks for the response, Dave." 10:55
.tell benjikun you wanted to add links to rakudo.org The sauce is here: github.com/perl6/rakudo.org/ The templates are in templates/ Add [REAPP] (including brackets) to commit title to restart the app with your changes 10:57
yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to benjikun.
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Geth perl6.org: 4c84c5ea2b | (Zoffix Znet)++ | fetch-recent-blog-posts.pl
Get rid of comments on medium.com showing up as new blogs
 11:11
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Geth perl6.org: e151ad1f3f | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | fetch-recent-blog-posts.pl
Explain more how the medium.com comment filter works
 12:36
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pmurias the truffle backend now passes t/nqp/001-literals.t :) 13:04
moritz \o/ 13:07
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jkramer Would it make sense to add a divmod op to P6 or would that have no advantages over doing mod and div seperately? 13:09
stmuk hmm zeroturnaround.com/rebellabs/graal...es-on-jvm/ has helped my understanding 13:12
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pmurias jkramer: does it offer any benefits rather then as an optimization aid? 13:17
jkramer pmurias: No, but isn't an optimization aid not a good reason for having it? :) I mean I guess div+mod are things that are often needed together and usually in situations where you do math stuff that you'd want to be fast 13:19
I'm doing some project euler tasks in P6 lately and this is something that I found would be useful on many occasions 13:20
pmurias jkramer: I'm not just not very convinced that it will make things faster 13:22
jkramer pmurias: Yeah that's why I'm asking. I guess rakudo is too high-level to make efficient use of CPU features/side effects 13:27
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raschipi Doesn't polymod do that? 13:28
m: say 25.polymod(3).reverse
camelia (8 1)
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timotimo the thing is that when we divide, we already get both the div and mod results, at least from the bigint library 13:28
[Coke] raschipi++
timotimo we then throw away one of the two, recalculate, and throw away the other
at least i think that's what happens
AlexDaniel clickbaits docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLS...g/viewform 13:29
ilmari m: 37.divmod(5).say()
camelia No such method 'divmod' for invocant of type 'Int'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
ilmari m: 37.polymod(5).say()
camelia (2 7)
ilmari isn't divmod just a special case of polymod?
[Coke] divmod isn't p6, I don't think. 13:30
raschipi Yep, it's the polymod case with a single argument.
jkramer Well divmod in other languages/libs that are more low-level make use of the fact that the machine opcode for division automatically stored the remainder in an extra register, so it's just one CPU op that does both at once
But that's probably not possible in Rakudo 13:31
raschipi jkramer: Why do you say that?
AlexDaniel m: say expmod(4, 2, 5);
camelia 1
ilmari s: Int, 'polymod'
SourceBaby ilmari, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/e935...t.pm6#L105
timotimo the jit's optimizer could probably figure that out
jkramer raschipi: Well you'd need to do inline assembly with all the downsides :)
timotimo just gotta implement it ;)
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raschipi jkramer: Rakudo generates assembler for x86_64 13:32
jkramer Oh really? I was not aware of that
ilmari well, it's really moarvm that does it
but yes, some ops are JITed
jkramer So I can compile P6 to binary?
raschipi Well, yeah, Moar does it.
It compiles it's own bytecode to binary 13:33
But not all of it, jkramer. 13:34
timotimo we only do JIT compilation, no AOT compilation here.
jkramer That's pretty neat :)
timotimo it's also only really a win because we observe the actual execution of the program to figure out what types are common where 13:35
pmurias all the Perl 6 backends (moar, jvm, js and truffle) do JIT compilation btw
timotimo 6guts.wordpress.com has many posts about our dynamic optimizer, and brrt-to-the-future.blogspot.com has posts about the jit
actually 13:36
jkramer: www.youtube.com/watch?v=3umNn1KnlCY - this could be very interesting for you: Jonathan Worthington (‎jnthn‎) - "‎How does deoptimization help us go faster" 13:37
13:39 Pheix joined
tbrowder_ g'day, #perl6 13:41
raschipi oi tbrowder_
tbrowder_ raschipi: o/ 13:42
13:43 molaf joined
tbrowder_ i need to bind a variable to a hash key so i can do something in p6 as is done in this gist: gist.github.com/tbrowder/e032014c6...61298e6c16 13:43
jkramer timotimo: Thanks, I'll watch it later, can't have sound right now :) 13:44
timotimo jnthn.net/papers/2017-spw-deopt.pdf - this is the slides pdf 13:45
raschipi m: my $b = 3; %h<a> := $b; $b = 4; say %h<a> 13:47
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '%h' is not declared
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my $b = 3; 7⏏5%h<a> := $b; $b = 4; say %h<a>
raschipi m: my $b = 3;my %h; %h<a> := $b; $b = 4; say %h<a> 13:48
camelia 4
13:48 kurahaupo left 13:49 Pheix2 joined 13:50 Pheix3 joined
raschipi tbrowder_: Does that solve your problem? 13:50
13:50 lizmat joined 13:52 Pheix left
tbrowder_ it does, and i'm a dummy! i was focused on assigning it inside the original hash definition and didn't consider the direct binding. thnx! 13:53
13:53 Pheix2 left 13:54 curan left
tbrowder_ s/original/original total/ 13:54
ufobat_ did anyone work any further on perl6 and ldap? fyi: gist.github.com/FROGGS/bafc8454a14...0048dabf47
raschipi tbrowder_: geekosaur found the answer when you asked earlier, you must have not seen it. I just repeated it now. 13:57
It's not obvious at all when trying to translate the Perl 5 code. 14:00
14:00 kurahaupo joined
b2gills I think that if a NQP op for divmod was added, it might make it easier to optimize a div followed by a mod (or the reverse) as the optimization could be done in NQP. (note that this is just a guess) 14:03
14:03 zakharyas left
raschipi polymod is repeated divmod 14:08
14:09 turdmonkey joined
turdmonkey yay perl! 14:10
raschipi heya turdmonkey
turdmonkey Hello.
14:11 turdmonkey left, greppable6 left 14:12 greppable6 joined 14:16 wamba joined
raschipi Juerd: do you find it amusing or frustrating that everyone disagrees so strongly with your style recommendations? 14:22
tbrowder_ geekosaur: thanks for the answer to binding a var to a hash key!
buggable New CPAN upload: RDF-Turtle-0.0.1.tar.gz by BDUGGAN modules.perl6.org/dist/RDF::Turtle:cpan:BDUGGAN 14:26
14:36 wamba left
masak raschipi: what style recommendations are those? 14:41
14:43 wamba joined
raschipi Use 'hash' instead of '{ }' to create empty hashes in the docs and getting rig of '$' anonymous variables, requiring it to be declred 'state $'. 14:43
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b2gills `$` is actually `(state $)` as `$ = 1` always assigns a `1`. While `state $ = 1` only assigns it the first time through the block. 14:51
timotimo i prefer {} over hash, because {} is a term, whereas hash can take some more stuff after it. if you're not careful, what you intended to be "empty hash" turns into "hash with a bunch of stuff" 14:52
turdmonkey Why is {} confusing with a block? Isn't one of Perl
Perls greatest strengths context?
Geth doc: 77374a0a82 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/traps.pod6
Document interpolation-of-anon-state-vars as a trap

Found 6 or 7 cases of this bug in the ecosystem
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/traps
turdmonkey You should be able to tell based upon context, yes?
timotimo in that case it's based on content, not context
turdmonkey hm 14:53
timotimo if there's any reference to $_ inside the { } it'll be interpreted as a block instead of a hash
which can surprise you
especially because there's the .foo form which is short for $_.foo
turdmonkey so if you use $_ inside of {} then you must explicitly declare it a hash?
timotimo so you can have a $_ in there without seeing the $_
in that case you'll have to use %( ) syntax, or a call to "hash" or rename the variable outside of it 14:54
14:54 zakharyas joined
raschipi Well, it's not a problem in practice, you just need to know how to force Perl 6 to do what you mean. 14:54
14:55 Zoffix joined
timotimo aye 14:55
a type annotation here or there can help, too
m: my %foo = { hi => "goodbye", boop => .uc }
camelia Odd number of elements found where hash initializer expected:
Only saw: -> ;; $_? is raw { #`(Block|86150824) ... }
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
timotimo or, you know, the % sigil
Zoffix turdmonkey: more accurately, referring to any **parameters** will make it a block. And $_ is a default parameter in blocks. The path to this error is having stuff like `{ foo => $o.ber }` and then later changing `$o` to be aliased to `$_` in the outer construct, so you go and change the hash to `{ foo => .ber }` but that's now a param, so it becomes a block 14:56
14:56 molaf left
Zoffix And the second error is reducing `{ … some code … }` to just an empty `{}`, but depending on the context that could mean a hash instead, so you have to go back and change that to `{;}` 14:57
turdmonkey lol, wow 14:58
Zoffix :)
I don't know why people keep using initialization to argue against `{}`. You wouldn't use it there! :)
m: my %foo = hi => "goodbye", boop => .uc
camelia No such method 'uc' for invocant of type 'Any'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
raschipi Zoffix: because they had their minds warped by computer science? 15:00
Zoffix I suspect it's because they're making up the problems that don't exist instead of reporting actual problems that happened :P
raschipi Well, it's got to be 'pure' and conform to some theory and all that, so every problem that can be made up must be solved, I think. 15:01
Zoffix Same with state vars. The original argument was that it's hard to search for, which proved false. However, I found ~6 modules in the ecosystem that weren't scoping them correctly
turdmonkey Zoffix, `boop => .uc` is really $_.uc ?
Zoffix turdmonkey: yes
turdmonkey :-O
Zoffix turdmonkey: same with .[0], .<foo>, and so on 15:02
turdmonkey Cool.
Zoffix Except for hypering, IIRC `.»lc with <a b c>` wont work
m: dd .»lc with <a b c>
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Malformed postfix call (only alphabetic methods may be detached)
at <tmp>:1
------> 3dd .7⏏5»lc with <a b c>
Zoffix yeah, it really wants a `$_` in there
turdmonkey How do you use those unicode characters o easily?
Zoffix turdmonkey: on this computer, I use XCompose, so it's `RWin, >, >` to type » 15:03
raschipi Zoffix types with his mind directly.
turdmonkey Hahaha, that is so cool
Zoffix turdmonkey: on my home computer, I have 18 extra keys on the side and have some of them bound to the special chars
turdmonkey Well, aren't you mister fancy pants.
Zoffix And if you don't know how to type it, you can just write it as `>>` 15:04
turdmonkey Yes.
Zoffix m: say <a b c>».lc; say <a b c>>>.lc
camelia (a b c)
(a b c)
turdmonkey The 'infinity symbol' = * = Inf ?
Zoffix m: say <a b c>».uc; say <a b c>>>.uc
camelia (A B C)
(A B C)
Zoffix Yeah
turdmonkey Why are there three ways to represent infinity?
Zoffix turdmonkey: full list here: docs.perl6.org/language/unicode_ascii
turdmonkey: oh, sorry, the `*` is not Inf. It's the "Whatever" object. And in some methods it represents an `Inf` 15:05
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Juerd raschipi: Slightly frustrating, but not because the "recommendations" (they're not really recommendations, more suggestions) aren't followed. I'm mostly frustrated with the things that make Perl 6 hard to learn or work with. 15:05
raschipi Juerd: they don't make it hard, they aren't problems in practice. 15:06
Juerd raschipi: Regarding hashes, 'hash' was never my preference until the other two were deemed too confusing. Although 'hash' is ugly, I think it's better to use something that's consistently safe, than to switch between constructs based on what's safe for specific contents.
Zoffix m: multi pick-a-number(Whatever:D) { ^100 .rand }; multi pick-a-number(Int \n) { n.rand.Int }; pick-a-number 42; pick-a-number *
camelia ( no output )
Zoffix m: multi pick-a-number(Whatever:D) { ^100 .rand }; multi pick-a-number(Int \n) { n.rand.Int }; say pick-a-number 42; say pick-a-number *
camelia 30
11.74417071926397
Juerd raschipi: Regarding $, it may just be disagreement about whether hidden or hard-to-detect state is bad or not. 15:07
Zoffix turdmonkey: so ^ here, I made "Whatever" mean "100"
15:07 zakharyas left
El_Che Juerd: I agree with you if the argument is timtowtdi if it make sense and a sane default when doesn't 15:07
Juerd raschipi: But in general, I'm not pessimistic at all. A few of my suggestions have made it into the language, and I don't take the rejections personally :D
raschipi I don't see how the traditinal $i would make it any different than just $. 15:08
Juerd raschipi: $i can't be used without declaring it.
raschipi: $ can
Zoffix Juerd: but I can declare that state with `my $i` in outer block.
Juerd Zoffix: Yes.
raschipi Well, I don't see how 'my $i' makes code any more clear than just '$'. 15:09
Zoffix And you won't find my state at all, where any anon var, I can find relatively easy for the common case, and the rest of the cases could be found with a tool that examines ASTs
Juerd raschipi: My most insane idea for the language was initially rejected and eventually adopted. So even when I don't get my way, I remain hopeful :DH
s/H$//
Zoffix Juerd: what was the idea? :)
raschipi Which idea was it?
Juerd .= 15:10
Zoffix I just find "state is bad" argument a bit vague. Before trying to find all the `$` uses, you'd need to have motivation to do so :) 15:11
.= is good. Even tho majority of people seem to struggly with chaining those 15:12
Juerd Zoffix: I'm depending on the community's agreement on the argument, I'm not going to try and change anyone's mind towards it :)
Zoffix `$x .= foo.bar.ber` for example
Juerd Zoffix: I don't think one should chain them.
Zoffix Juerd: no, but the above is meant to be equivalent to `$x = $x.foo.bar.ber`, but it's actually `($x = $x.foo).bar.ber`
Juerd Zoffix: I'm fine with it being possible, because I do think the language should provide as much rope as needed to hang yourself, but I don't necessarily think all the options should be used in practice. 15:13
Zoffix Juerd: you should write a book. "Perl 6 Best Practices"
Juerd Zoffix: I might release a short style guide at some point
Zoffix: But definitely not within the coming few years
afk
Zoffix Juerd: with argumentations for why "state is bad". 15:14
raschipi Write a module that enforces it too.
Zoffix And well, explanations for all the other practices.
15:15 Zoffix left 15:18 Pheix3 left 15:29 Tideflat joined 15:33 wamba left
buggable New CPAN upload: cro-http-0.7.6.1.tar.gz by JNTHN modules.perl6.org/dist/Cro::HTTP::T...cpan:JNTHN 15:36
15:39 SHODAN joined
buggable New CPAN upload: cro-http-0.7.6.1.fix.tar.gz by JNTHN modules.perl6.org/dist/Cro::HTTP::T...cpan:JNTHN 15:46
jnthn Monday... :/
15:47 mcmillhj_ joined 15:50 mcmillhj left, mcmillhj_ left
Tideflat What is the recommended way to install zef? I am on Debian and don't seem to have a command named zef in spite of having perl 6 installed, nor is there a packages named perl 6 15:50
15:50 dxmxr joined
El_Che Tideflat: are you using the version in debian itself or a third party package? 15:50
Tideflat I believe the official package though I installed it a while ago and may have forgotten, but my version number exactly matches the version of latest perl6 package from Debian 15:53
El_Che do "which perl6" 15:54
Tideflat The version is 6.c-1
timotimo what's "perl6 --version" say?
Tideflat This is Rakudo version 2016.12 built on MoarVM version 2016.12 15:55
implementing Perl 6.c.
timotimo you probably won't be able to install zef on that 15:56
well, at least not latest zef
Tideflat ah thanks. So updating to a more recent version of Rakudo outside of the Debian package system would fix that?
El_Che Tideflat: I provide a repo for debian stable and ubuntu here: github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg 15:57
timotimo el_che's packages are very good
El_Che it will not conflict with OS-supplied rakudo
Tideflat Thank you! I will look into that after I get home from work.
El_Che (as long you don't start mixing paths, at least) 15:58
ping if you need help
bbl
16:01 vcv_ joined, vcv_ is now known as vcv
raschipi El_Che: Do you know if the packages for Debian Stretch work fine on Buster? 16:01
vcv Can any of the bots in here run Perl6 code that uses a third party module?
like Cro::HTTP::Client
16:01 Tideflat left 16:02 Tideflat joined, jmerelo joined
timotimo i believe on the evalable bot you can reach modules from the ecosystem 16:02
vcv p6: use Cro::HTTP::Client; Cro::HTTP::Client.new(:base-uri("www.test.com"), :cookie-jar).post("/test") 16:03
camelia ===SORRY!===
Could not find Cro::HTTP::Client at line 1 in:
/home/camelia/.perl6
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/site
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/vendor
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6
…
16:03 mcmillhj joined
timotimo you have to add it via "use lib", though 16:03
it and all of its dependencies, probably 16:04
16:04 mcmillhj left
timotimo i don't know how exactly 16:04
vcv Ok, sounds like an adventure. thanks :)
timotimo the code required to do it might be too long to fit in one irc message, even
16:08 mcmillhj joined 16:09 mcmillhj left
tony-o_ cro has a lot of deps 16:09
16:09 mcmillhj joined
tony-o_ m: use Cro:HTTP::Client; 16:09
camelia ===SORRY!===
Could not find Cro at line 1 in:
/home/camelia/.perl6
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/site
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/vendor
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6
CompUnit::Repo…
Geth doc: 2054d3cc80 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/Junction.pod6
Reword Junction short-cuircuting portion

Closes github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2120 D#2120
  - Expand short-circuiting behavior to include same type of shortcircuiting as
   performed in `and`/`or` ops
  - Document it as possible future language feature per
   github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2120#i...-399996522
  - Feature proposed in R#1963 github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1963
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Junction
synopsebot D#2120 [open]: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2120 Junction short-circuiting clarification
synopsebot R#1963 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1963 Make Junctions short-curcuit similar to how `and`/`or` do
doc: e7d26b1c7f | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/Junction.pod6
Minor rephrasing and example compilation fixing
 16:13
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turdmonkey woow 16:15
.pat.say for dir;
.path.say for dir;
evalable6 irc-backup.tar.gz
bin
t
sandbox
3rdparty
.gitmodules
.gitignore
CONTRIBUTING.md
Sakefile
maintenance
services
META6.json
config-default.json
lib
config.json
junk
.git
data
LICENSE
stdin
logs
README.md
turdmonkey lol 16:16
.path.say for dir("../");
evalable6 ../whateverable
../bloaty
../perl6-Toaster
Geth doc: b347d5e85b | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/traps.pod6
Puts comments into the code chunk
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/traps
turdmonkey .path.say for dir("../../../"); 16:17
evalable6 ../../../nadja
../../../cheapfood
../../../yuno
../../../automata
../../../mary
../../../bisectable
../../../ovh
../../../alex
../../../anna
turdmonkey .path.say for dir("../../../../../../");
evalable6 ../../../../../../initrd.img.old
../../../../../../vmlinuz.old
../../../../../../bin
../..…
turdmonkey, Full output: gist.github.com/f7321deb6ce586985c...eecbe5c572
turdmonkey .path.say for dir("../../../../../");
evalable6 ../../../../../initrd.img.old
../../../../../vmlinuz.old
../../../../../bin
../../../../..…
turdmonkey, Full output: gist.github.com/f1fe60babcb780c62a...9d105d04f5
turdmonkey sorry if I'm spammin, it's kinda cool
.path.say for dir("../../../../");
evalable6 ../../../../initrd.img.old
../../../../vmlinuz.old
../../../../bin
../../../../etc
../../.…		 16:18
timotimo you can go into #whateverable, too
evalable6 turdmonkey, Full output: gist.github.com/a62895b0671580889c...e0fc72f3ce
turdmonkey is that the channel for playing around?
AlexDaniel sort of, yeah
jmerelo Reached 100 answers in the dev survey, but it's good if we have a few more. Check it out: docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLS...g/viewform 16:19
turdmonkey .path.say for dir("../../../../../etc");
evalable6 ../../../../../etc/bindresvport.blacklist
../../../../../etc/ngircd
../../../../../etc/ufw…
turdmonkey, Full output: gist.github.com/380d04be568cebb3f0...d9f823c453
AlexDaniel turdmonkey: even though most of the file system is not writable, there are some writable files that are needed for the bot… I advise not to do crazy stuff :)
turdmonkey Yeah...can't someone screw up your box?
16:20 domidumont left
AlexDaniel well, you can screw up the bots, it'd take a bit more effort to screw up the box :) 16:20
16:20 donaldh joined, zakharyas joined
AlexDaniel like maybe through a kernel vulnerability or something like that 16:20
16:20 Zoffix joined
Zoffix turdmonkey: there's also /msg camelia that works :) 16:20
turdmonkey: there's also a penalty for screwing up the box. You… don't wanna know what it is :O 16:21
AlexDaniel e: spurt ‘isitwritable’, ‘foo’
evalable6 (exit code 1) Failed to open file /home/bisectable/git/whateverable/isitwritable: Read-only file system
in block <unit> at /tmp/7ZB0TMvSS9 line 1
AlexDaniel ↑ you see :)
e: slurp ‘config.json’
evalable6 (exit code 1) Failed to open file /home/bisectable/git/whateverable/config.json: Permission denied
in block <unit> at /tmp/E65kMFQxGW line 1
AlexDaniel there are limits for the number of started processes, used memory, and maybe some other stuff I don't remember right now 16:22
like, /tmp is private for each bot
it's definitely not very secure, but it would take some dedicated effort to screw things up :) 16:23
Zoffix m: await IO::Socket::Async.connect('irc.freenode.net', 6667 ).then({given .result {.print("NICK Camelia_\nturdmonkey, don't mess around or else! :P\n"); react {whenever .Supply {}}}})
AlexDaniel right :)
camelia (timeout)
Zoffix hm..
e: await IO::Socket::Async.connect('irc.freenode.net', 6667 ).then({given .result {.print("NICK Camelia_\nturdmonkey, don't mess around or else! :P\n"); react {whenever .Supply {}}}}) 16:24
timotimo you need to PRIVMSG
Zoffix oh, right
evalable6 (signal SIGHUP) «timed out after 10 seconds»
Zoffix m: await IO::Socket::Async.connect('irc.freenode.net', 6667 ).then({given .result {.print("NICK Camelia_\nPRIVMSG #perl6 turdmonkey, don't mess around or else! :P\n"); react {whenever .Supply {}}}})
Well, now it's not as fun :P
turdmonkey lol
Zoffix Missing join
camelia (timeout)
Zoffix oh well
timotimo true, though some channels allow messages without joining IIRC
a mode you'd have to set manually, i expect 16:25
turdmonkey AlexDaniel, never underestimate hackers.
AlexDaniel I remember when this stuff came up when I was searching for regressions by rerunning a lot of m: snippets from irc logs :)
turdmonkey "Dedicated effort" practically defines them
geekosaur it's defaulting off recently because of spam attacks from around 6 months ago
AlexDaniel turdmonkey: correct, but at least we'll be able to observe their dedicated effort publicly :) 16:26
turdmonkey: at least *ables don't answer on private messages
16:26 Tison joined 16:27 Camelia_ joined
Camelia_ turdmonkey, don't mess around or else! :P 16:27
Zoffix hehe
turdmonkey hahahahhaa
16:27 Camelia_ left, dakkar left 16:28 donaldh left
turdmonkey hmm 16:28
16:28 donaldh joined
turdmonkey that looks suspiciously like an Arch Linux box m i rite 16:28
Zoffix mhm
AlexDaniel e: say run <uname -a>
evalable6 Linux superserver 4.9.0-6-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.9.82-1+deb9u3 (2018-03-02) x86_64 GNU/Linux
Proc.new(in => IO::Pipe, out => IO::Pipe, err => IO::Pipe, exitcode => 0, signal => 0, pid => 16931, command => ["uname", "-a"])
turdmonkey ;-o 16:29
Tison Zoffix, have you ever given a talk/essay about OOP on Perl 6?
Zoffix m: use NativeCall; sub system (Str) is native {}; system 'uname -a' 16:30
camelia Linux camelia 4.4.92-31-default #1 SMP Sun Oct 22 06:56:24 UTC 2017 (1d80e8a) x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
turdmonkey guys, do you have any suggestions for some networking projects in Perl 6, for a relative beginner, some of which use threads?
16:30 dxmxr left
Zoffix turdmonkey: yeah, fix bugs in IRC::Client :) 16:30
turdmonkey :-O
Zoffix eco: IRC::Client
16:30 scimon left, Tideflat left
Zoffix buggable: yo 16:30
buggable Zoffix, IRC::Client 'Extendable Internet Relay Chat client': github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-IRC-Client 6 other matching results: modules.perl6.org/s/
16:30 donaldh left 16:31 donaldh joined
Zoffix turdmonkey: we have a list of most wanted modules: github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted...ed-modules 16:31
turdmonkey woah
Zoffix Tison: nope
turdmonkey that's a lot
hmmm 16:32
so does that mean you need an Email::Sender module?
16:32 donaldh left, donaldh joined
Zoffix turdmonkey: I'd say it means someone at some point in time added that to the list. Someone else—unaware of it being on the list—might've implemented something. You should check the ecosystem 16:33
modules.perl6.org/
turdmonkey: also, I think the Perl 6 survey currently going on is asking for what module people want the most. You could wait for results and see
turdmonkey cool 16:34
I am primarily interested in netowrking since I really need to learn it better 16:35
Tison to construct an object, it jump out a lot of concepts like `new` `BUILD` `bless` `BUILDALL`, hard to clarify relations among them
turdmonkey I'm learning IO::Socket::INET right now
AlexDaniel jmerelo: there was no weekly yet, I think that'd give another inflow of answers 16:36
jmerelo Can someone tell me what's wrong with my answer here? stackoverflow.com/questions/414332...8#51016808
raschipi Tison: You'll usuall just need TWEAK untill you start to really get into it.
Zoffix I'd say you'll usually need none of them 16:37
jmerelo I have a strong hunch of who's voted it down, and same hunch tells me why, but I really can't see how the answer is unhelfup or not addressing the question. If it does, please say something and I'll happily edit or simply delete it if there's a better answer. 16:38
AlexDaniel: but 100 is striking.
AlexDaniel jmerelo: ha
Zoffix jmerelo: it doesn't answer the question: "How to get a list of encodings". You answered only how to see if something's supported if you already have a list 16:39
jmerelo: dunno, I'm on bdfoy's shitlist as well and he didn't downvote my answers. Just ignored them and never accepted them. So it's possible your hunch is wrong :) 16:40
16:40 raynold joined
jmerelo Zoffix: it does point to the new code that shows all encodings. But you are right, it does not say so explicitly 16:40
turdmonkey brian d foy? 16:41
Zoffix yeah
turdmonkey whaaat
he doesn't like you?
jmerelo Zoffix: the list is also wrong.
I mean, the link.
Zoffix jmerelo: I think that'd still just give a list of *rakudo's* encoding. Is there a way to get a list of them from any compliant implementation?
Like some method on Encoding::Registry or something 16:42
16:43 brrt joined
jmerelo Zoffix: I have edited it now. Check out the code. $encodings is a class-scoped variable. I don't see how that could be accessed. Maybe I'm dumb, but I can't see the way. 16:44
Zoffix: the block-lexical $encodings get into a class-lexical %lookup. Really can't see how... It does not have any role, or superclass, so that's all there is. 16:46
jnthn Encoding::Registery should probably get a method that fetches all registered encodings. Note that it should make a defensive non-lazy copy to be thread-safe
jmerelo jnthn: that's what I thought by looking at the code, but I don't know if it's done that way by design or whatever. Right now there does not seem to be a way. 16:47
jnthn No, there's not a way
Zoffix R#1964
synopsebot R#1964 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1964 [RFC] Implement a way to get a list of supported encodings
jmerelo Zoffix++ 16:48
jnthn I added Encoding::Registry in the first place, and just did what was needed to use it in place of what existed before.
jmerelo jnthn: it was a big improvement, far as I can tell.
jnthn There's no sense that I didn't think there should be a way to introspect the encodings. I think there should. Just was focused on all the other pieces. :) 16:49
jmerelo jnthn: of course. No problem.
But you see, digging up unanswered stackoverflow questions brings some joy and improvement to us all (and downvotes to some :-) ) 16:50
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jnthn It's possible we want to add another piece of state to keep track of the actual encodings themselves, since the %lookup has all of the aliases 16:51
Whereas what a .encodings() method likely wants to return is the Encoding objects themselves
From which you can the introspect the name and the aliases
*can then
16:52 n1ge left 16:55 Tison left
buggable New CPAN upload: RDF-Turtle-0.0.2.tar.gz by BDUGGAN modules.perl6.org/dist/RDF::Turtle:cpan:BDUGGAN 16:56
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Geth whateverable: 04beb801ab | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | lib/Whateverable.pm6
Use Bufs and utf8-c8 in get-output

Otherwise Greppable complains about malformed UTF-8. Maybe a good side-effect of this change is that some output will not be normalized.
See issue #153.		 17:16
turdmonkey hm, interesting..
`say $file.absolute;` gives me the absolute path of the file, and `say $file.absolute.path;` looks like it returns not only the absolute path, but also the fact that they are .IO objects? 17:17
raschipi .absolute returns a string and .path returns an IO object 17:20
Geth doc: 36eee8451a | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/IO/Path.pod6
Index link and symlink as methods/routine

This would close #2121. They are searchable now as routine and methods, with the notation "sub". If this is not address satisfactorily the OP, feel free to reopen.
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/IO::Path
doc: 62f9619f96 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/IO/Path.pod6
Changes routine → sub
raschipi You're looking at their gists, which is a human-recognizable representation of the object
geekosaur more specifically, "say" invokes the gist method of anything it prints to get a printable representation 17:21
turdmonkey cooool 17:23
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lizmat and another Perl 6 Weekly hits the Net: p6weekly.wordpress.com/2018/06/25/...surveying/ 17:29
raschipi Yay, lizmat ++
lizmat decommute& 17:35
17:36 lizmat left, sena_kun left 17:37 sena_kun joined
turdmonkey I am enjoying learning about perl's concurrency features 17:39
I made my file system printer concurrent wee 17:40
jmerelo turdmonkey: congrats!
turdmonkey my $channnel - Channel.new();
=
ok, now I know what I must do 17:41
Make a concurrent web crawler in perl
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turdmonkey do you guys have any examples of that yet? 17:41
maybe I can contribute 17:42
jmerelo Just a reminder we have a poll going on how to prescribe hash declaration in the docs: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2117#i...-399742781
I'll leave it running for another 24 hours before closing.
turdmonkey: You mean, as in Mojo::DOM with DOM extraction and the works? To tell you the truth, I still use Mojo::DOM for that...
turdmonkey I don't know, I haven't looked at that 17:43
jmerelo turdmonkey: but short question is: no, I don't know of any example... Sorry.
17:43 sena_kun left
turdmonkey No, that's ok. 17:43
I would love to figure it out on my own and then give it to the examples section on the website 17:44
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Zoffix jmerelo: but we have a Perl 6 implementation of Mojo::DOM already 17:47
eco: DOM::Tiny
buggable Zoffix, DOM::Tiny 'Very small, self-sufficient DOM parser manipulator': github.com/zostay/p6-DOM-Tiny 1 other matching results: modules.perl6.org/s/DOM%3A%3ATiny
Zoffix Exactly the same interface
You may want to install with zef --/test; it has a huge and lengthy test suite 17:48
jmerelo Zoffix: ah, that's amazing. I didn't know. Thanks! 17:49
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turdmonkey I met that guy 17:52
who wrote that 17:53
he was at TPC
he gave the presentation on perl6 ad the rpi, I think
17:53 kurahaupo left
Zoffix cool 17:53
turdmonkey yeeeah that's him
he's cool
17:53 kurahaupo joined
turdmonkey I may be working for him soon doing network security for ziprecruiter, LOL 17:53
uzl The Spanish translation of Learn X in Y Minutes -- Perl 6 was pushed to the website. It'd greatly benefit from some revision. 17:56
17:56 pecastro joined
uzl link: learnxinyminutes.com/docs/es-es/perl6-es/ 17:57
Zoffix \o/ 17:58
turdmonkey Illegally post-declared type..? 17:59
AlexDaniel that's pretty cool, IIRC there are many responses asking for Spanish docs
jmerelo: ↑ :)
Zoffix turdmonkey: you must declare a type before you use it 18:00
m: my Foo $x; class Foo {}
camelia 5===SORRY!5===
Type 'Foo' is not declared
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my Foo7⏏5 $x; class Foo {}
Malformed my
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my7⏏5 Foo $x; class Foo {}
Zoffix I forget which one says illegally 18:01
But stick def first, or use a stub
m: class Foo {…}; my Foo $x; class Foo {} # the first one is a stub
camelia ( no output )
Zoffix lizmat++ # good, and long, weekly 18:03
turdmonkey Zoffix: does this mean that it's a single pass compiler?
Zoffix turdmonkey: yup
turdmonkey O really!? 18:04
I figured it was one of those scala-like 23-pass compilers
Zoffix Yup. It's part of the spec even. You can mutate the language lexically, and unless you execute stuff as you parse, you can't really do it
18:04 Ven`` joined
Zoffix m: role R { }; &R 18:05
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Illegally post-declared type:
R used at line 1
Zoffix interesting error :/
oh, it's just this: 18:06
m: A.new; class A { }
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Illegally post-declared type:
A used at line 1
Zoffix m: class A {…}; A.new; class A { }
camelia ( no output )
18:08 mcmillhj left, molaf joined
Zoffix Filed as R#1965 18:09
synopsebot R#1965 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1965 [LTA] LTA error when using `&` coercer on a role
18:11 domidumont left
Zoffix m: BEGIN { $?LANG.refine_slang('MAIN', role { token infix:sym«smaller» { <sym> <O('prec', 'm=', 'assoc', 'left', 'dba', 'chaining', 'iffy', 1, 'diffy', 1, 'pasttype', 'chain')> } } )}; sub infix:<smaller> { $^a < $^b }; say 1 smaller 2 smaller 3 18:13
camelia True
Zoffix m: BEGIN $?LANG.refine_slang('MAIN', role { token apostrophe { <[ - ' \\ ]> } }, role {}); my $foo\bar = 42; say $foo\bar; 18:14
camelia 42
Zoffix ^ some examples of mutating the language as you go
turdmonkey :O
Zoffix m: sub infix:<♥> { "$^a loves $^b".say }; 42 ♥ 'meows' 18:15
camelia 42 loves meows
raschipi And that's doesn't even get into the work being done on macros.
Zoffix m: sub infix:<¯\(°_o)/¯> { @_.pick }; say 'Coke' ¯\(°_o)/¯ 'Pepsi'; 18:16
camelia Pepsi
turdmonkey well that is quite cool 18:17
Zoffix m: sub prefix:<∑> (*@els) { @els.sum }; say ∑ 1, 2, 3, 4;
camelia 1234
Zoffix oh right
turdmonkey lol
Zoffix m: sub prefix:<∑> (*@els) is looser(&[,]) { @els.sum }; say ∑ 1, 2, 3, 4;
camelia 10
turdmonkey haha 18:18
that unicode...
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Zoffix m: sub infix:<+> (Int $a, Int $b) { $a - $b }; say 2 + 2; 18:20
camelia 0
Zoffix And now, for the show's finale! Prepare to be amazed!
raschipi Now we're getting into the evil side.
18:20 psychoslave joined
Zoffix m: sub infix:<⁣> { $^a + $^b }; say 2⁣2; 18:20
camelia 4
Zoffix magic 18:21
:)
raschipi Doing that for multiplication is more fun.
18:22 mcmillhj joined
raschipi m: sub infix:<⁣> { $^a * $^b }; sub f(\x) { x³ - 3⁣x² + 2⁣x }; f 4 18:23
camelia ( no output )
raschipi m: sub infix:<⁣> { $^a * $^b }; sub f(\x) { x³ - 3⁣x² + 2⁣x }; say f 4
camelia 3912
Zoffix u: <⁣> 18:24
unicodable6 Zoffix, U+003C LESS-THAN SIGN [Sm] (<)
Zoffix, U+2063 INVISIBLE SEPARATOR [Cf] (control character)
Zoffix, U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN [Sm] (>)
18:25 ilogger2 joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v ilogger2 18:30 dct joined, brrt joined, sno joined 18:33 mcmillhj joined
Geth doc: acc6730ff7 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/traps.pod6
whitespace
 18:43
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/traps
El_Che jmerelo: what's happening :) 18:55
jmerelo El_Che: nothing unexpected.
18:56 benjikun joined
jmerelo I'm going AFK right now :-) 18:56
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turdmonkey Yes, DOMTiny and HTTPUserAgen are perfect 19:05
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turdmonkey the MAIN sub is absolutely spectacular 19:10
19:11 bwisti left 19:12 _uzl left
moritz yes, very useful 19:13
El_Che .tell jmerelo if spain keep playing like that I will be force to cheer the other team :) 19:14
yoleaux El_Che: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.
El_Che turdmonkey: out of the box, mmm, not really 19:16
turdmonkey: with this: sure! docs.perl6.org/language/functions#...-MAIN-OPTS
turdmonkey: docs.perl6.org/language/functions#...d-anywhere
turdmonkey oh my 19:18
Geth ecosystem: nicqrocks++ created pull request #400:
Move Git::Wrapper to GitLab
19:18 mcmillhj joined 19:21 brrt left 19:22 bwisti joined 19:23 mcmillhj left, wamba joined
[Coke] m: say "🏩".uninames; 19:27
camelia (LOVE HOTEL)
19:27 lizmat joined
[Coke] O_o; . o O (thanks, 🗾) 19:27
lizmat waves from SLC 19:28
yoleaux 18:26Z <samcv> lizmat: i was disapointed that it didn't let me choose multiple options for what my most proficient languages
El_Che samcv: indeed
[Coke] lizmat: You at the airport? Safe travels! 19:29
El_Che samcv: benjikun did the poll (iirc) 19:30
AlexDaniel samcv: you're not the only one, some people wrote more than one in Other… field
benjikun yoleaux: Yeah I saw some people on reddit were disappointed about the language question alongside not being able to choose multiple text editors 19:31
yoleaux 10:57Z <Zoffix> benjikun: you wanted to add links to rakudo.org The sauce is here: github.com/perl6/rakudo.org/ The templates are in templates/ Add [REAPP] (including brackets) to commit title to restart the app with your changes
benjikun We'll certainly do that next time
El_Che benjikun++
AlexDaniel benjikun: fwiw the unicode question is a bit wrong I think, something to fix for the next time also 19:32
benjikun It's a little crowded with the answer choices
but I know why you wanted the data, nevertheless
19:32 mcmillhj joined
benjikun does seem useful 19:33
AlexDaniel benjikun: it says “No, and I don't want to use unicode characters in my source code” but for some people I'd expect the answer is “Yes I can, but I don't want …”
lizmat [Coke] yeah, waiting for things to happen
[Coke] (languages) what's this from?
AlexDaniel [Coke]: survey
“Not including Perl 6, what language are you most proficient in?”
turdmonkey "In what languages are you most proficient" 19:34
[Coke] AlexDaniel: What survey?
turdmonkey Anything less than utterly perfect grammar is punishable by DEATH
AlexDaniel [Coke]: docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLS...g/viewform
benjikun [Coke]: We're still taking answers 19:36
wanted to snatch the people that look at p6weekly
19:37 mcmillhj left
AlexDaniel [Coke]: btw this was posted on twitter, on reddit, on facebook, and it was mentioned in p6weekly… It was only up for like one day, but it makes me wonder, is there any other social media platform that we forgot? Something that you follow? 19:37
Geth p6-sake: 5ed74a9da2 | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | README.md
think this word (alike) is the intended one
 19:38
[Coke] I didn't see it on twitter or FB, and I'm not on reddit. 19:40
I haven't gone through this week's weekly yet.
El_Che facebook is woolfy
[Coke] where was it posted on twitter? 19:43
Perhaps there's another account for me to follow (and never see actual updates from because twitter is a firehose)
El_Che I saw it in Zoffix feed
19:43 mcmillhj joined
El_Che [Coke]: twitter.com/perl6org 19:44
(retweeted it)
I suspect Zoffix manage that account
moritz I do, actually
El_Che I remember now
I knew that :)
moritz though I wouldn't mind handing the password to another person who is willing to help me 19:45
(not that it's very much to do, but having a backup never hurts)
El_Che feel free to ping me if you need a backup 19:46
brb, last minutes of match :)
turdmonkey woah woah
Moritz as in Moritz Lenz, the guy who wrote Perl 6 Fundamentals and the Regex one? 19:47
moritz turdmonkey: the very same; I take you read at least one of them? :)
turdmonkey Both.
moritz nice :-)
turdmonkey I like how dense they are.
No fluff.
Like the K&R C of Perl 6
moritz I'd a appreciate a rating on amazon, btw :-) 19:48
turdmonkey Of course
moritz (don't need to write pages of review)
19:48 mcmillhj left
El_Che ok, jmerelo lost some hair today 19:49
19:49 joya joined
[Coke] jmerelo had hair to lose? <monty python>Luxury!</monty> 19:52
Geth ecosystem: 10699c899c | Nic++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Move Git::Wrapper to GitLab
 19:53
ecosystem: f1a05ab2f5 | Nic++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Merge pull request #400 from nicqrocks/patch-1

Move Git::Wrapper to GitLab
pmurias blogs.perl.org/users/pawel_murias/2...iment.html - my new blog post 20:01
timotimo pmurias: is that "with" supposed to be "without"? 20:02
El_Che pmurias: just to late for the weekly :(
20:03 mcmillhj joined
AlexDaniel not too late! It's at least 6 days earlier! 20:04
20:04 raschipi joined
turdmonkey is "~$url" anything special? the tilde? 20:04
is it the bit negation? 20:05
AlexDaniel it's stringification
m: dd ~5
camelia "5"
AlexDaniel m: dd 5
camelia 5
turdmonkey ahh, that's right, '~' is the "string operator" right? 20:06
it is the Master String
20:08 mcmillhj left
raschipi It's the string in "String". 20:09
turdmonkey hm, that's pretty cool 20:11
lizmat weekly: blogs.perl.org/users/pawel_murias/2...iment.html 20:12
notable6 lizmat, Noted!
pmurias hopefully it will pass a lot more tests by next week :) 20:14
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El_Che pmurias: I like your attitude! 20:17
raschipi Not even unprecendented, it was like that for the javascript backend. 20:18
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timotimo i have a feeling that pmurias might know a thing or two about the javascript backend 20:20
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raschipi I know and I was just going to ask him about it. 20:22
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raschipi pmurias: you plan to run rakudojs just in node.js or in browsers too? 20:23
benjikun raschipi: From one of his previous blog posts: "As part of working on making Rakudo.js run in the browser.." 20:28
raschipi Oh, right. So just the graal interpreter embedded in node.js isn't enough. 20:29
pmurias raschipi: the browser is the vastly more important target for the js backend :) 20:36
raschipi Will the JIT generate asm.js? :p 20:37
turdmonkey I'm trying to use HTTPUserAgent and DOMTiny to get the source from a web page and then extract the links, but I'm getting an odd error 20:38
pastebin.com/xtqrVcDL
"Cannot resolve caller AUTOGEN(DOM::Tiny: HTTP::Response); none of these signatures match: 20:39
(DOM::Tiny:U $: Str:D $html, Bool :$xml is copy, *%_ --> DOM::Tiny:D)
(DOM::Tiny:D $: Str:D $html, Bool :$xml, *%_ --> DOM::Tiny:D)
in sub MAIN at dom.p6 line 14
in block <unit> at dom.p6 line 8
pmurias raschipi: on which backend? 20:41
lizmat boarding&
20:41 lizmat left
pmurias raschipi: the graalvm team has some vague plans to maybe run on webassembly once it matures but I don't count on it 20:41
geekosaur turdmonkey, an HTTP::Response will contain the page, but is not only the page text. Possibly stringifying it will do what you want 20:42
that is, DOM::Tiny.parse(~$response) 20:43
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turdmonkey I see. 20:45
20:46 labster joined
turdmonkey Yay 20:47
pmurias raschipi: the truffle backend is not a replacement for the js one (which is not abandoned) 20:48
raschipi DOM::Tiny could have an AUTOGEN candidate that accepted an HTTP::Response and did the right thingwith it... Gonna implement it tonight, someone thinks that's not a good idea?
turdmonkey Isn't one of Perl's biggest upsides "DWIM" ?
raschipi pmurias: I got that, I was just thinking about their relationship.
benjikun lizmat: airplane?
stay safe
raschipi She's safer while flying than at the airport. 20:49
benjikun true
turdmonkey raschipi: Can I see how you do it? How are you going to start? 20:50
geekosaur turdmonkey, yes, but someone has to think of it :)
in this case it'd just do what you did: see it got an HTTP::Response ibject and stringify it
then possibly nextwith to pass it to the correct candidate 20:51
*see if it
raschipi It would be very short, something like copying something like this: (Str:D $html, Bool :$xml, *%_ --> DOM::Tiny:D) into (Str( HTTP::Response) $html, Bool :$xml, *%_ --> DOM::Tiny:D) and then calling the already existing function. 20:52
method, rather
20:52 Zoffix joined
Zoffix turdmonkey: if all you're trying to do is fetch content, you could take WWW module for a spin instead 20:53
raschipi with nextsame instead of nextwith, I think. Perhaps detect the filetype and fill the :$xml argument automatically.
Zoffix eco: WWW
buggable Zoffix, WWW 'No-nonsense, simple HTTPS client with JSON decoder': github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-WWW 5 other matching results: modules.perl6.org/s/WWW
Zoffix raschipi: how will you get the right type?
runtime loading?
turdmonkey Zoffix: I will look into that, too. I want to make a script which will crawl a web page, and then I want to use GTK later on to visualize the data
20:54 mcmillhj left
Zoffix IMO trying to do that is over-engineering. There's like half a dozen, if not more, of HTTP fetching modules. 20:54
(the HTTP::Response thing, not the crawling thing)
turdmonkey Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I'm not very familiar with the Perl 6 ecosystem yet 20:55
raschipi What about making HHTP::Response Stringy?
geekosaur that sounds like more of a win, yes. I think most other uses you;d have for it (e.g. extracting cookies or other HTTP headers) would use method calls --- but doublecheck that first 20:56
things could get interesting if it does Positional or Associative, etc. 20:57
20:57 n1ge joined
raschipi Yeah, I would rather not make it THAT interesting of an object... 20:58
geekosaur DWIM, WAT
raschipi Make it Cool, Stringfy to get the text and numify to get the status code 20:59
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Zoffix e: constant term:<😎> = Cool; say 42 ~~ 😎; multi is-cool($ where 😎) { say "it's cool, bruh" }; multi is-cool(|) { say "ain't cool" }; is-cool 42; is-cool class UnCool {} 21:04
evalable6 True
it's cool, bruh
ain't cool
Zoffix is disappointed multi is-cool(😎) didn't want to compile 21:05
raschipi Cool 21:06
Hugs and kisses everyone, my wifeis here I'm going home. Later.
21:06 raschipi left
Zoffix m: BEGIN $?LANG.refine_slang: 'MAIN', role { token identifier { '😎' | <.ident> [ <.apostrophe> <.ident> ]* } }; constant 😎 = Cool; multi is-cool( 😎) { say "it's cool, bruh" }; multi is-cool(|) { say "ain't cool" }; is-cool 42; is-cool class UnCool {} 21:08
camelia it's cool, bruh
ain't cool
Zoffix hahahaaha :D
21:08 wamba left 21:09 mcmillhj joined 21:11 Ven`` left
geekosaur Cool and the gang? 21:11
benjikun *Kool and the gang 21:12
21:14 mcmillhj left, Zoffix left
geekosaur yes, that was the joke (riffing on Zoffix's Cool shenanigans) 21:15
21:16 margeas joined
turdmonkey Ah, I see that DOMTiny talks about stringification in the docs now 21:17
21:17 smls joined
turdmonkey If you convert the DOM::Tiny object to a string using Str, ~, or putting it in a string, it will render the markup. 21:17
smls m: class A { method FLATTENABLE_LIST { () }}; sub a (:$a) { }; a |A.new; 21:18
camelia This type (List) does not support elems
in sub a at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
turdmonkey Now, to make it concurrent...
smls ^^ What's that error about?
21:20 Zoffix joined
Zoffix smls: it wants an NQP list, not a Perl 6 one 21:21
smls Ah.
Zoffix smls: also, that method is very much secret sauce and it shouldn't be shown to users.
smls But I'm implementing my own Hash-like type... :P
Zoffix Use the available public methods. And if those are not enough, file an Issue. 21:22
smls What methods are available to control binding of the type to signatures? 21:23
I thought that's what FLATTENABLE_LIST and FLATTENABLE_HASH are for...
Zoffix Dunno, give me an example?
smls s/binding/flattening/ 21:24
like: 21:25
m: sub a (*@a, *%a) { dd @a; dd %a }; a |Hash.new("a" => 42);
camelia []
{:a(42)}
smls If I replace Hash.new with MyHash.new then what do I need to add to class MyHash to get the same output? 21:26
Zoffix m: class A is Hash { }; sub a { dd @_; dd %_ }; a |A.new("a" => 42);
camelia []
{:a(42)}
Zoffix That's all I know.
smls Hm... 21:28
timotimo don't you want to change the .Capture of your class?
smls timotimo: No, that's separate.
Zoffix Capture would just affect signature unpacking, not slipping.
21:29 mcmillhj joined
timotimo OK 21:29
Zoffix m: class A { has $.a; method Capture { \(<meow>, :$!a) } }; sub a ($ (*@_, *%_)) { dd @_; dd %_ }; a |A.new("a" => 42);
camelia Default constructor for 'A' only takes named arguments
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Zoffix m: class A { has $.a; method Capture { \(<meow>, :$!a) } }; sub a ($ (*@_, *%_)) { dd @_; dd %_ }; a |A.new(a => 42);
camelia ["meow"]
{:a(42)}
21:31 splatt9990 left
smls I wonder to what extend one can override all behavior when subclassing from Hash, and what performance overhead it would have to carry the unused baseclass internals around... 21:31
Zoffix Filed R#1966 21:33
synopsebot R#1966 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1966 [RFC] Ability to specify how an object flattens in signatures
21:34 mcmillhj left
Zoffix smls: FWIW, if you go the Hash route, keep it mind it won't init your attribute defaults with its default new 21:35
m: class A is Hash { has $.a = 42 }; dd A.new
camelia {}
Zoffix m: class A is Hash { has $.a = 42; method new {self.bless: |%_} }; dd A.new 21:36
camelia {}
Zoffix um
right, it's got it's own perl too 21:37
smls :P
Zoffix m: class A is Hash { has $.a = 42; method perl { dd $!a } }; dd A.new.perl
camelia Any $!a = Any
Nil
Zoffix m: class A is Hash { has $.a = 42; method new { self.bless: |%_ }; method perl { dd $!a } }; A.new.perl 21:38
camelia Int $!a = 42
21:38 sena_kun joined
Zoffix That's RT#130020 21:38
synopsebot RT#130020 [open]: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=130020 [RFC][@LARRY] Create a set of conventions to minimize impact internal changes to user's code
Zoffix &
21:38 Zoffix left
turdmonkey Is Zoffix in the background now? 21:39
smls Yeah, Perl 6 built-in types don't make it easy to subclass them. I think I once tried it with List but gave up and went the "A does Positional does Iterable" route with a private List attribute instead...
masak turdmonkey: Zoffix is so in the background, he even logged off! :)
(but yes, "in the background" is what that shorthand means) 21:40
AlexDaniel fg
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turdmonkey hahaaaa 22:04
12 lines of code(excluding the preable stuff) to make a crawler which prints the data to a file 22:05
preamble*
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turdmonkey Hm, I could save some lines by making it more idiomatic e.g `spurt "linkfile", "$e<a href>";` 22:06
LOL one line...
wtf..
perl 6 is cool
AlexDaniel turdmonkey: well, I can probably give some bonus hints to make it even shorter if you can show the code :) 22:10
turdmonkey for hahaha
alright, i'll show it the first time I wrote it, which is not very idiomatic. 22:11
Juerd turdmonkey: Care to share the line? :)
turdmonkey pastebin.com/tnv6WGDq 22:12
AlexDaniel hm can't you do my $ua = HTTP::UserAgent.new: :10timeout;
turdmonkey I can?
AlexDaniel or any other form that you prefer, HTTP::UserAgent.new(timeout => 10) 22:13
turdmonkey oooo
AlexDaniel that doesn't work, weird 22:14
turdmonkey hmm 22:16
the first one works 22:17
.new: :10timeout;
AlexDaniel turdmonkey: it does nothing silently
the timeout is still 180
turdmonkey hahahahaha 22:18
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turdmonkey ok, this is a little weird 22:19
AlexDaniel turdmonkey: I created this ticket: github.com/sergot/http-useragent/issues/206 :)
turdmonkey when i run "$fh.print($e<a href>, ':', $e.text, "\n");" 22:20
it prints everything to the file with (Str) in front ((Str) /community/):Community 22:21
AlexDaniel just $e<href> ? 22:22
turdmonkey but when i run "$fh.say($e<a href>, ':', $e.text); it prints everything to the file properly, but I get this error
"Use of uninitialized value of type Str in string context.
Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.
AlexDaniel yeah
turdmonkey in block at dom.p6 line 17"
AlexDaniel turdmonkey: so I'd guess that $e is your <a …> tag already 22:23
turdmonkey: and it's associative so you can access the attributes with {'href'} or <href>
but there's no ‘a’ attribute
am I right?
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turdmonkey Yes, you are correct. 22:24
Thanks. 22:25
Is it just me, or are there a lot of quirks? I tend to assume things are my fault, since I am not familiar with the Perl 6 syntax, but I come across strange errors on a regular basis
I also haven't learned a new language in a while, so perhaps I am biased. 22:26
timotimo we consider bad error messages a bug, maybe you've got something we can fix? 22:28
turdmonkey Well, I don't know if i's a "bad error message", since it directly told me what was happening. 22:29
I think it was my fault for not being familiar with the module
raschipi You just need a little more practice to become fluent, it's the same in any other language. 22:30
Juerd There are also actual quirks :) 22:33
AlexDaniel Juerd: btw I'm serious about the style guide :) 22:35
Juerd My memory fails me. What was that again?
AlexDaniel Juerd: github.com/perl6/roast/issues/439#...-400110713
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Juerd AlexDaniel: I don't have sufficient experience with Perl 6 yet to write such a document. I can comment on specific things. 22:36
benjikun AlexDaniel: github.com/sergot/http-useragent/b...nt.pm6#L75
AlexDaniel Juerd: well, I'm expecting others to chime in, so all it needs is just a start :) 22:37
benjikun wouldn't they need timeout included as a BUILD argument to make that an option at declaration
Juerd But even then, I'm not going to write a list of "consider using <alternative>" because nobody likes to read that. I'm familiar with training and instructing people, and they want to hear "do this, don't do that", and they're intelligent enough to realise that there are always exceptions.
AlexDaniel benjikun: another option is to remove the BUILD method entirely
Juerd AlexDaniel: If it's a collaborative effort, we'll just get deadlocked in bikeshedding, I'm sure.
AlexDaniel benjikun: some initialization can be done in TWEAK
benjikun ah, true
AlexDaniel Juerd: I'm more optimistic about this :) 22:38
Juerd AlexDaniel: I'm not; will send a private message with some more details in a minute 22:39
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benjikun Juerd: are you talking just about that issue on GitHub in relation to bikeshedding or work as a whole 22:48
am I missing part of this conversation 22:53
AlexDaniel greppable6: \<\-\> 22:54
greppable6 AlexDaniel, 124 lines, 36 modules: gist.github.com/c53627c55a1569076f...bc96c3b4a4
AlexDaniel wtf where's markdown rendering?
timotimo any | that weren't escaped properly? or html somehow ended up inside something somewhere? 22:55
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AlexDaniel timotimo: I clicked `Edit`, then `Save`, and now it's rendering properly: 22:57
gist.github.com/AlexDaniel/dc3ddc5...9e445b38d0
joya question: is it normal that if you assign an rhs hash value to an lhs hash variable, its keys are stringified?
Juerd benjikun: Writing a style guide collaboratively would result in an infinite bikeshed. 22:58
benjikun oh, I see 22:59
yeah that's a possibility
AlexDaniel joya: yes, I think. You probably want to use binding := and maybe there are some helpful hints on docs.perl6.org/language/hashmap#No...ject_hash)
Juerd benjikun: Write anonymous hashes with {}, says the person who follows the design and knows this was the originally intended way to write them. Write hashes with %(), says the person who got bitten by parsing rules that caused their {} to be interpreted as a block. No, use "hash", I say, because that seems to be the only way to do so reliably -- even though I would have preferred "{}" otherwise, and I 23:01
personally haven't been bitten by it that much yet. No, just don't write anonymous hashes, just initialize named ones with a list of pairs, I expect someone to comment at some point.
With %() I meant %(something), of course, with 'something' being any of the numerous options available. 23:02
Including whitespace.
benjikun I know what you mean, perhaps we just need to choose one and stick with it
AlexDaniel s:g/anonymous/empty/ :)
Juerd AlexDaniel: Empty and anonymous
benjikun and force it in docs for newcomers
Juerd benjikun: That too is controversial. Some (most) appear to want the docs not to stick to any single solution, but instead be sufficiently descriptive of code that's already in the wild. 23:03
Personally, I don't like "hash", but I value easy teaching and maintainability over other arguments, so for me it's still a clear winner. 23:04
benjikun will inevitably make Perl 6 seem convoluted and tricky to newbies, but expressive and personal to long-timers
lots of trade-offs 23:05
I suppose it all falls on how our docs and first-time resources are setup 23:09
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joya AlexDaniel: 😊 23:57
that is strange behaviour, though 23:58
i mean, you wouldn't expect a deep copy of a typed container to erase types
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