»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 May 2018.
Geth doc: a966b33ff9 | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/js-nutshell
Geth doc: 14797d5210 | Coke++ | 3 files
convert to p6; make it easy to retest

add overview		 00:13
doc: e149f1fe4d | Coke++ | 3 files
whitespace
[Coke] yay, finally managed to squeeze it in. :)
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[Coke] util/update-and-test now creates a script so you can rerun it a few times while you're cleaning up xtest. 00:14
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Geth doc: e7594bf494 | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/MIGRATION.pod6
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/MIGRATION
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Geth doc: c853b2b5cc | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/concurrency.pod6
use sentence case
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/concurrency
p6noob jnthn, thanks for the hint. MVM_JIT_DISABLE=1 does indeed make the problem go away
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Geth doc: 41e920f5d3 | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/tables.pod6
using a Clint Eastwood movie title
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squashable6 🍕 tbrowder++ wrote a comment on “Inconsistent capitalizat…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2146#i...-403253321 00:58
🍕 tbrowder++ closed issue “Inconsistent capitalizat…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2146
🍕 tbrowder++ wrote a comment on “"I don't know what's introductory in perl6/doc"”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2145#i...-403253389 01:00
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Geth doc: 3846e78e1e | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/tables.pod6
italics are the proper way to show titles
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/tables
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Geth doc: 8331829414 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | writing-docs/STYLEGUIDE.md
Reflow STYLEGUIDE.md

If we say that text should be wrapped at 72 characters, might as well do that in the styleguide itself…		 01:13
doc: 2caa412ef5 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | writing-docs/STYLEGUIDE.md
Mention that abbreviations are LTA
doc: 221ddb54bc | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | writing-docs/STYLEGUIDE.md
Not just language, but CS in general
TimToady no longer wraps text at any particular length... 01:17
backlogging somewhat, the whole %() thing seems a bit fraught when you can just say %{} or @[]
m: say %{}.perl 01:18
camelia {}
TimToady m: say %{:a, :!b}.perl 01:19
camelia {:a, :!b}
TimToady m: say %[:a, :!b].perl
camelia {:a, :!b}
TimToady curious 01:20
m: say @{1,2,3}.perl
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unsupported use of @{1,2,3}; in Perl 6 please use @(1,2,3) for hard ref or @::(1,2,3) for symbolic ref
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say @{1,2,3}7⏏5.perl
TimToady heh
01:21 subroot joined
TimToady m: say @[1,2,3].perl 01:21
camelia [1, 2, 3]
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TimToady oops, dinner & # bad timing... 01:21
AlexDaniel m: dd %( 2, 4, 5, 8 )
camelia Hash % = {"2" => 4, "5" => 8}
AlexDaniel m: dd %{ 2, 4, 5, 8 } 01:22
camelia Odd number of elements found where hash initializer expected:
Only saw: -> ;; $_? is raw { #`(Block|66645312) ... }
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
AlexDaniel m: dd { 2, 4, 5, 8 }
camelia -> ;; $_? is raw { #`(Block|58335448) ... }
AlexDaniel heh 3 different behaviors
araraloren m: dd {} 01:23
camelia Hash % = {}
araraloren default is a Hash, has something it become a Block ?
AlexDaniel m: dd {;}
camelia -> ;; $_? is raw { #`(Block|66620960) ... }
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araraloren that's a confused design, for me 01:25
I prefer add -> before the {}, cause it will not confused anyone
m: dd -> {}
camelia -> { #`(Block|67829152) ... }
AlexDaniel araraloren: but again, that's slightly different behavior 01:26
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AlexDaniel m: say {;}(42) 01:26
camelia Nil
AlexDaniel m: say -> {;}(42)
camelia Too many positionals passed; expected 0 arguments but got 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
AlexDaniel m: say -> $? {;}(42)
camelia Nil
araraloren yeah, you are right
It like a `sub {}` without signature 01:27
AlexDaniel no… a sub is a sub!
m: sub a { { return 42}() }; say a
camelia 42
araraloren m: say sub {}(2); 01:28
camelia Too many positionals passed; expected 0 arguments but got 1
in sub at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
AlexDaniel m: sub a { sub { return 42}() }; say a
camelia 42
araraloren oh
AlexDaniel m: sub a { sub { return 42}(); 50 }; say a
camelia 50
AlexDaniel m: sub a { { return 42}(); 50 }; say a
camelia 42
araraloren m: say sub{}(2);
camelia Too many positionals passed; expected 0 arguments but got 1
in sub at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
AlexDaniel let's not involve subs into this :)
araraloren oh, so it will not accept arguments except you accessed the @_ .. 01:30
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araraloren m: say sub{@_;}(2); 01:30
camelia [2]
AlexDaniel araraloren: the design is indeed somewhat surprising, especially if you have just written something like `if True {}` not so long before needing an empty Block… :)
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araraloren yeah, I see 01:31
Geth doc: 4ded02b22e | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/MIGRATION.pod6
another variant
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/MIGRATION
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Geth doc: 4a69a091f2 | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/MIGRATION.pod6
another tweak
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doc: 63a2bc27be | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | writing-docs/STYLEGUIDE.md
Actually use non-ASCII ops after recommending that

  + tiny text tweaks		 01:39
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Geth doc: 0d57bfa1d3 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | writing-docs/STYLEGUIDE.md
Recommend Wikipedia's MoS for anything not covered

See issue #2146.		 05:42
squashable6 🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “Need a way to mark which…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/302#is...-403264236 05:43
🍕 AlexDaniel++ wrote a comment on “Need a way to mark which…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/302#is...-403264332 05:47
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Geth doc: 676c8f2bce | (JJ Merelo)++ | 2 files
Taking out I<> which was making htmlify.p6 complain
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Geth doc: a950e6f032 | Coke++ | doc/Language/tables.pod6
Actually test pod examples
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squashable6 🍕 coke++ wrote a comment on “Fix p6doc build errors”: github.com/perl6/doc/pull/2103#iss...-403265282 06:14
Geth doc: 0905e8b431 | (Ben Davies)++ | Build.pm
Fix p6doc build errors
doc: e25f712a5e | (Will Coleda)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | Build.pm
Merge pull request #2103 from Kaiepi/build

Fix p6doc build errors
squashable6 🍕 coke++ merged pull request “Fix p6doc build errors”: github.com/perl6/doc/pull/2103
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Geth doc: 3308069bba | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | doc/Language/traps.pod6
Rewrite for [~] trap

Closes #2124.		 06:31
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/traps
squashable6 🍕 AlexDaniel++ closed issue “Potential trap with conc…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2124
AlexDaniel .tell jmerelo take a look at github.com/perl6/doc/commit/3308069bba , does it make sense?
yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.
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Geth doc/coke/build: 20 commits pushed by (Will "Coke" Coleda)++, Coke++
review: github.com/perl6/doc/compare/50ed6...976063193b		 06:36
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Geth doc/coke/build: 7a1f774618 | Coke++ | 2 files
Convert make test targets to sake
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doc: 346273c6bd | Coke++ | Makefile
Fix test name
 06:47
AlexDaniel [Coke]: oh cool, a Sakefile!
[Coke]++
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Geth doc/coke/build: 175acb5481 | Coke++ | Makefile
add note
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AlexDaniel squashable6: next 06:56
squashable6 AlexDaniel, 🍕🍕 SQUASHathon is in progress! The end of the event in ≈5 hours. See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
AlexDaniel, Log and stats: gist.github.com/6881f580dd095e679b...06765e779d
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squashable6 🍕 coke++ wrote a comment on “convert 'make run' to use Perl 6”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1057#i...-403267167 06:58
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Geth doc: e9be362b53 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | doc/Language/traps.pod6
Fixed link
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/traps
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squashable6 🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “/tmp files don't get cleaned up properly”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1973#i...-403268551 07:27
jmerelo again working from a Dutch train 07:28
yoleaux 06:31Z <AlexDaniel> jmerelo: take a look at github.com/perl6/doc/commit/3308069bba , does it make sense?
jmerelo .tell AlexDaniel I already did, looking for some reason to open it back on you :-) Didn't find it. Thanks! 07:29
yoleaux jmerelo: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.
AlexDaniel .
yoleaux 07:29Z <jmerelo> AlexDaniel: I already did, looking for some reason to open it back on you :-) Didn't find it. Thanks!
AlexDaniel :)
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jmerelo AlexDaniel: it's pretty good and straighforward. Good job. 07:29
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AlexDaniel squashable6: status 07:52
squashable6 AlexDaniel, 🍕🍕 SQUASHathon is in progress! The end of the event in ≈4 hours. See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
AlexDaniel, Log and stats: gist.github.com/0db6540eaf5637386d...4655087fe7
Geth doc: 6664e97356 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6
Changes example for #1889 and adds link
 07:55
doc: 237e9568cc | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6
Adds example for infix |, closes #1889
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/operators
squashable6 🍕 JJ++ closed issue “Improve documentation for |”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1889
jmerelo closes laptop and tries to enjoy the Dutch landscape. Great job everyone! 07:57
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moritz masak: does that qualify as a autopun? twitter.com/RichRogersIoT/status/1...0409276416 08:59
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Geth doc: 5de1a0111f | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/module-packages.pod6
remove period
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/module-packages
Geth doc: b1c99c863e | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/MIGRATION.pod6
change to single word
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/MIGRATION
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squashable6 🍕 tbrowder++ wrote a comment on “convert 'make run' to use Perl 6”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1057#i...-403276989 10:10
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rindolf hi all! I am getting a test failure with git master - paste.debian.net/1032838/ 10:26
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Luneburg I'm having a problem where it looks like a subroutine is taking "True" as an argument, but it should only accept an Int type? 11:16
lizmat Luneburg: care to elaborate ? 11:17
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El_Che m: say +True 11:17
camelia 1
El_Che m: say +False
camelia 0
Luneburg lizmat: It's for the ackermann function from the thinkperl6 book, I'm using multi subroutines to try to finish the exercise. One of the multi functions takes (0, Int $n), but it is accepting "True" as the second argument 11:18
lizmat m: True ~~ Int
camelia ( no output )
lizmat m: say True ~~ Int 11:19
camelia True
lizmat that's the reason, for better or worse :-)
m: say True ~~ Int:D
camelia True
Luneburg lizmat: Wait, so "True" is an Int?
lizmat I think the only way around that would be to create a separate multi that explicitely takes a Bool
m: dd True.^mro
camelia (Bool, Int, Cool, Any, Mu)
lizmat apparently Bool inherits from Int 11:20
El_Che very perl5-ish :)
lizmat: how went your talk? I saw a pic on twitter 11:21
Luneburg lizmat: Ah, interesting stuff!
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lizmat El_Che: it went quite alright 11:21
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El_Che \o/ 11:21
lizmat handed out stickers during the talk
www.flickr.com/photos/wendyga/4250...ed-public/ 11:22
El_Che wanna
:)
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El_Che keep one on the side for the next time we meet :) 11:22
www.flickr.com/photos/wendyga/42160973995/ 11:23
that could be useful in talks :)
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Luneburg lizmat: Do you have any ideas on how to create a separate multi that explicitly takes a Bool? It comes back with a "Ambiguous call...these signatures all match" error. 11:31
lizmat checks
El_Che m: say so 255
camelia True
El_Che m: say so -255
camelia True
El_Che it looks like all ints are True besides zero 11:32
I would use named parameters in this case
to make things clear
lizmat m: multi a(Int) {"Int"}; multi a(Bool) {"Bool"}; say a 42; say a True
camelia Int
Bool
lizmat seems to work in the simplest way 11:33
m: multi a(Int) {"Int"}; multi a(Bool) {"Bool"}; say a 42; say a False
camelia Int
Bool
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Luneburg Thanks guys! I've solved this now :) 11:42
El_Che Luneburg++ 11:46
tbrowder_ .tell tyil i hope to have =defn working properly by end of today. it will be a new class Pod::Block::Defn and will have a $.term attribute. 11:51
yoleaux tbrowder_: I'll pass your message to tyil.
tyil oh 11:52
yoleaux 11:51Z <tbrowder_> tyil: i hope to have =defn working properly by end of today. it will be a new class Pod::Block::Defn and will have a $.term attribute.
tyil tbrowder_: awesome 11:53
:D
I hadn't even posted an issue about it on a repo
you're not at the dutch perl workshop are you? :o
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tyil once that's working I can do a new Pod::To::Pager release, all other stuff should be good by now 11:54
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tbrowder_ tyil: i’m wrong. the new class should be named Pod::Defn to be consistent with existing classes. 12:37
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andrzejku hello 12:37
tyil the name isn't too important
andrzejku araraloren: hey
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tbrowder_ arg, the original name is more appropriate! anyhoo, it will show up later today. 12:40
tyil: you mentioned here earlier that defn didn’t di the right thing, and i found an old open but about that. then i found out it isn’t even specced! another nyi pod piece. 12:43
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tyil nice 12:43
tbrowder_ *open bug
tyil ping me when it lands, I'll compile and try it out 12:44
andrzejku do you think Perl 6 have a chance in scientific calculations? 12:47
El_Che andrzejku: I am fairly positive about that 12:48
andrzejku: it needs to beat python on speed (that's low bar) and it has good (read: easy) C bindings
we'll see
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andrzejku El_Che: me too 12:48
El_Che: for scientifics speed is not so important 12:49
since you create only a model
El_Che andrzejku: I was under the impression it was
andrzejku El_Che: I don't know much about speed
El_Che I hear scientiest complain about python all the time
the like the lang, but are more often than not writing C
(anecdoctic evidence)
andrzejku El_Che: I think now for python comes hard time, I spend a little bit time with Rust and I have a company here which took the Rust for development because of speed 12:50
El_Che: there many languages for web
and almost a few for bare metal programming and sciense
El_Che: and Perl6 is slow as fuck 12:51
El_Che: so it would be bettwe to take area where it can gain popularity
El_Che it's slow now
get faster all the time
speed is acceptable for a lot of stuff though 12:52
e.g. heavy log parsing is too slow (wrote that in Go), but for area's where perl 6 is fast enough sometime the missing libs are the issue (as they are not trivial to implement your self) 12:53
I picked perl 5 for a project that needed ldap libs
and was missien oauth integration in perl 6 to pick for a small project 12:54
(small as rest service where not a lot of traffic is expected)
I had a nice perl6 service running for more than 1,5y in production though, that worked very well 12:55
andrzejku El_Che: WoW!;D
what do you mean by service?
El_Che (I stopped it because it did what it was supposed to do, it was a CA provider migration voor 3000 domains)
andrzejku El_Che: ahh, I am far away from web : (
El_Che it checked cert info on remote host, to see if they moved to the new CA
or if it was almost expired 12:56
andrzejku El_Che: I only could help with MoarVM but I have no idea how :D
El_Che people where only force to move to the new CA once their old certs expired 12:57
hence, 1,5 Y runtime
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El_Che andrzejku: there is a internal course 12:57
atm I lack the time and skill
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El_Che andrzejku: anyway, some time ago perl6 wasn't really there yet for webdevelopment, and now it certainly a nice option 12:59
things change
it makes me very optimistic 13:01
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buggable New CPAN upload: unprint-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz 13:15
pmurias El_Che: to what extent does existing triumph over easy bindings? 13:16
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El_Che pmurias: good question. It's not zero sum, I think. 13:29
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jmerelo squashable6: status 13:31
squashable6 jmerelo, Next SQUASHathon in 25 days and ≈20 hours (2018-08-04 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
jmerelo What about the stats?
El_Che the type of how 4 statitians downed on a pool of average 4cm deep? 13:34
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jmerelo El_Che: right. I came too late for the squashathon stats... 13:36
Anyway, here's the album with the NLPW workshop www.flickr.com/photos/atalaya/albu...0951338508
(and some more stuff, just go to the middle of it skipping graffiti and railway landscapes)
jmerelo backs AFK again and boards a plane again 13:38
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pmurias El_Che: it's obviously not zero sum, binding creation being easy seems to directly encourage creation of them ;) 13:50
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buggable New CPAN upload: unprint-0.0.2.tar.gz by ELIZABETH modules.perl6.org/dist/unprint:cpan:ELIZABETH 14:15
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guest_123 m: my \Str = 123 ; 'str'.WHAT 15:04
camelia ===SORRY!===
No compile-time value for Str
guest_123 It seems like letting users define sigiless variables that repurpose class names causes sadness 15:06
moritz m: my class Str is Int { }; 'str'.WHAT
camelia ===SORRY!===
This type cannot box a native string: P6opaque, Str
moritz guest_123: or redefine a class name of a literal's type through any other means, and don't provide compatibility with the old type 15:07
guest_123 Indeed... 15:08
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timotimo that seems like a DIHWIDT to me, you might want to use a different class for literals in a given scope and this is how to do it 15:08
alternatively, we can force it to look up the types for literals only from the core setting instead of the current scope
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moritz but then it's almost impossible to do some language modifications we might want to allow 15:10
timotimo it'd have to be exposed as a pragma i suppose 15:11
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guest_123 m: my \Str = IntStr ; 'asd'.WHAT 15:14
camelia ===SORRY!===
No compile-time value for Str
timotimo must be binding instead of assignment 15:15
or make it "constant"
guest_123 huh. That worked differently in my repo...
s/repo/repl/ 15:16
timotimo yes, the repl is very different in some ways
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buggable New CPAN upload: String-Fold-0.1.0.tar.gz by TYIL cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/T/TY/...1.0.tar.gz 15:45
tbrowder_ .tell tyil check out my Text::More module 15:55
yoleaux tbrowder_: I'll pass your message to tyil.
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p6noob tbrowder_: where can that be checked out? meta::cpan search doesn't find it, and modules.perl6.org doesn't list it. 16:02
tbrowder_ try Text::More 16:03
in the search box
at modules.perl6.org 16:04
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ecocode how come modules.perl6.org shows 2 versions of XML::XPath ? I see two different authors, but that looks bizare.. 16:08
modules.perl6.org/t/PARSING
El_Che I don't think namespacing is unique
moritz why? if two authors decide they want to publish a module called XML::XPath, we let 'em :)
ecocode same thing for US-ASCII. two mentions, same author ! 16:09
p6noob tbrowder_: thx
ecocode actually that happens a lot
El_Che moritz: I think that matches perfectly in the github centric workflow (like go's), but it's very strange when you're used to CPAN 16:10
ecocode modules.perl6.org/t/PARSER
two mentions of ANTLR4::Grammar
the author is the same, albeit listed differently
JGOFF versus Jeffrey Goff [email@hidden.address] 16:11
weird
El_Che sounds like a bug
although JGOFF is way cooler
:)
MasterDuke one is the CPAN version, one is from github
ecocode US-ASCII lists 2 exactly same mentions 16:12
MasterDuke he likely didn't remove the github version from the module list after he created the cpan version
ecocode hmprf... shouldn't that get checked automagicaly ? 16:13
p6noob tbrowder_: lil typo.. Add commas to a mumber
moritz ecocode: it could be checked automatically if you contributed a patch that did it
ecocode :)
my perl6 coding is way too bad for that 16:14
but hence I can file a bug ?
where should I do that ?
moritz ecocode: modules.perl6.org is a P5 application, actually 16:15
ecocode really ?
moritz github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/issues
ecocode well, it is already filed
github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/issues/106
timotimo you can see from the icon that one is from github and one is from cpan 16:16
ecocode not the case for US-ASCII 16:17
timotimo OK
ah, i didn't scroll down :S
sorry about the noise
ecocode Is there an RSS feed of perl6 modules ? 16:18
updates and new modules
timotimo they do show up in the perl6 weekly 16:23
but i don't think we have an actual rss feed for the modules
cpan uploads show up on the irc
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tbrowder_ p6noob: good eye! please file an issue so. 16:29
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tbrowder_ so i don’t forget. 16:29
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pukku Quick question -- is there any sort of XSLT package for Perl 6? `modules.perl6.org` doesn't seem to think so. I have an XML data structure that I want to extract a bunch of data from, and I'm trying to find a better way than tons of calls to `XML::XPath.find().contents()[0]`. 17:12
yoleaux 10 Mar 2017 00:22Z <BenGoldberg> pukku: You said you are interested in a DOM manipulator which doesn't change the order of attributes when you stringify it... first, look at github.com/zostay/perl6-ArrayHash; then, look at DOM::Tiny, specifically the source of DOM::Tiny::HTML. Note that there are precisely three places where Hash.new is used; if these were changed to ArrayHash, I'm 99% sure that you'd have a solution.
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jmerelo Hi again :-) 17:15
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MasterDuke pukku: i don't think so 17:23
tyil tbrowder_: what about Text::More? 17:27
yoleaux 15:55Z <tbrowder_> tyil: check out my Text::More module
tbrowder_ it has some string and text wrapping and stuff that may be useful 17:30
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tyil ah 17:36
I just got home and I'm a tad tired from the NLPW
I'll take a better look soon(tm)
thanks for bringing it to my attention :>
rindolf hi all! Behold my creation - github.com/shlomif/rakudo-git-master-install - and it is under expatL 17:38
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jmerelo rindolf: that makes it the 4th? 5th? Great anyway to have such variety :-) 17:46
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rindolf jmerelo: shlomifishswiki.branchable.com/How_...oliferate/ ;) 17:51
jmerelo rindolf: :-) That's all good and well :-) 17:52
squashable6: status 2018-07-07
squashable6 jmerelo, Log and stats: gist.github.com/c3c7ca754a1536422b...0b606bff33
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tbrowder_ Folks I have in place a simple way to rearrange the docs Language page in desired order and to create GROUPS to put them under. Until Pod::To:HTML is modified to render the page to look better, the page at the moment has a MIGRATING group at the top and ALL the migrating docs immediately underneath. I'm looking for a bit of consensus on more GROUPS, their order, and the names of the docs to go under each. 18:07
AlexDaniel: is there a p6 doc wiki we can start a page with a proposal to critique? 18:08
jmerelo: ^^^?
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jmerelo tbrowder_: I don't think we have that wiki 18:09
tbrowder_: maybe just open another issue? They can be modified and acted upon, in the same way as a wiki 18:10
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tbrowder_ ok, i’ll do that. 18:12
jmerelo tbrowder_: thanks!
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remove period
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jmerelo goes AFK. Until tomorrow! 18:20
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Geth doc: tbrowder self-assigned proposed Language page grouping github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2160
c1b001c269 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/community.pod6

Wendy does help me with collecting items and proofreading, but yours truly is usually responsible for writing. The blog in this form was started by Timo Paulssen actually, and has had other guest writers, such as Zoffix Znet.		 18:39
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tbrowder_ New issue (thanks jmerelo) GH #2160 is a proposed gropuping and child page listing. Feel free to modify or critique. I will modify the Language page according maybe tomorrow, but it's pretty easy to rearrange. 18:43
p6noob tbrowder_: what is the "docs Language page"? Is there a link available? 18:44
tbrowder_ go to the docs page and select the "Language" tab at the top 18:46
direct link: docs.perl6.org/language.html
p6noob Ah thanks, groupings make more sense now :) 18:48
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AlexDaniel . 19:09
tbrowder_: yeah, I think opening a ticket should work 19:10
tbrowder_: if you want others to modify your post, just leave a note that they should feel free to do it 19:11
tbrowder_: oh, now I have read it. Yes, sounds like a great idea 19:13
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AlexDaniel tbrowder_: hey, have you seen github.com/perl6/doc/issues/114 ? 19:14
it also groups pages by topic
well, by category 19:15
tbrowder_: maybe “PERL 6 SPECIFICS” can be split into more than one category. 19:19
tbrowder_: for example maybe “Perl 6 fundamentals” with basic stuff like “Functions”, “Lists, Sequences, and Arrays Positional data constructs”, etc 19:21
tbrowder_: this way we'd be able to close D#2145 :)
synopsebot D#2145 [open]: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2145 [build][site] "I don't know what's introductory in perl6/doc"
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masak I feel like the past few days I've been on a mental pilgrimage through S04's "When is a closure not a closure". 19:27
I was wondering whether to turn `for` loops in 007's bytecode-to-be into function calls, or just local jumps 19:28
turns out I want both
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tbrowder_ AlexDaniel: yes, i saw #114 some time ago (but forgot about it). some good ideas there, and my first cut is rough but i wanted to get something concrete, using current page titles, for people to shoot at. also, i think i left a comment at #2145 saying something like we’re on track for groupng so we could close the issue soon. maybe close it and reference the new issue with the wip list. 19:59
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tbrowder_ i just looked at the community page for the first time—looks good, but it shows Wendy as author of p6 weekly. i thought Elizabeth wrote that article. 20:28
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lizmat tbrowder_: which page are you talking about ? 20:31
perl6.org/community/ ? 20:32
tbrowder_ the Language page on the docs website. there’s a recent page listed as “Community...”
docs.perl6.org/language/community 20:34
lizmat yeah, fixing it now :-)
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/community
tbrowder_ can some irc expert tell me why some user names, like mine, have a trailing underscore? 20:42
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robertle ot an expert, but can't you change it with /nick? 20:43
my client uses a trailing underscore if my real nick is taken. typically by me in anotehr session that I had forgotten 20:44
tbrowder_ haven’t tried, but i didn’t add the char and i see quite a few others with the same thing.
ah, dup sessions is probably it 20:45
lizmat tbrowder_: that usually happens if your irc client loses the connection, and you reconnect. If you do that before your original connection has timed out on the server side, you cannot use the same nick
so your client adds a "_"
buggable New CPAN upload: P6Repl-Helper-0.0.2.tar.gz by KJK modules.perl6.org/dist/P6Repl::Helpers:cpan:KJK
geekosaur unless you get clever 20:47
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geekosaur (my client has an on-connect macro to send a "ghost" and then try to renick 5 seconds later) 20:48
tbrowder_ if i send text to joe_ does joe get it, i.e., is it an alias?
geekosaur no 20:49
one reason to use memoserv instead of channel message bots is that a registered user can link the nicks and then they'd get a message directed to any of the linked nicks
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pmurias masak: is 007 evolving into a "proper" language rather then being a macro experiment? 21:45
tbrowder_ erg, the page changes i've been making are auto-generated and must be made inside the files!! too much tv while perling 21:47
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DrForr o/ 22:05
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tbrowder_ hi, DrForr 22:11
DrForr Afternoon, locally. 22:12
Buckling down to fix readline while I've got downtime.
tbrowder_ hm, what time zone?
DrForr MDT, 4pm here. 22:13
Looks like nxadm's fix was just to force version 7.
I'd like a more portable way though.
tbrowder_ aha, not a perl conf, eh?
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DrForr No, mostly waiting for the UK consulate to make up their mind on the visa. 22:14
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DrForr This problem's also caused an issue with cro, or at least the OpenSSL module it relies on. I was wanting to build a wiki app, but as usual other yaks poked their noses in. 22:15
I also recall talking with Lembark about this at TPC, with him explaining that it wasn't really my module's problem but how perl6 treats LD_LIBRARY_PATH stuff on his system; Liz was fiddling with a fix but I don't know if any progress was made. 22:17
I think it'd be a great start if native('foo') looked for the highest version of the 'foo' library, and if a separate v7 argument was added it searched for that and failed if it's not present, but I'm just going on current docs without background. 22:19
geekosaur "portable" varies. what happens when the API changes? 22:20
everyone really badly wants the shared library API to magically figure out all possible compatibility issues
DrForr Oh, I know there are arguments for and against...
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DrForr I really could only argue two ways for this, if I were thinking straight. 22:21
Actually just one, now that I think on it. 22:22
Create NativeCall::LibraryMagic that does loading magic.
It needs to be a library *somewhere* so that Perl6 authors don't repeat other's work, and it can't be in core because modules innovate faster than the language core. 22:23
jnthn I'm not sure there's any magic, alas. Either the NativeCall binding matches the ABI and things work, or it doesn't and things are unlikely to work
*API
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geekosaur ABI's actually more correct, since NativeCall has to work at ABI level 22:25
it'd be easier if it were API, but then NativeCall would have to compute C code on the fly
*compile
DrForr In my case I can certainly push a change to tie things to readline v7 and have things "just work" for that particular version but still horribly break for others. It's not optimal but if it gets things working again I'm for it.
jnthn I thought that then noticed you wrote API and then automatically assumed you knew better than me. :-)
geekosaur yeh, I wrote that and then realized I should have said ABI
I still think NativeCall is the wrong approach, there's too many things it will never be able to get right 22:26
DrForr Lisp CFFI seems to get it right but it takes the "Much magic" approach by shielding a lot of crap behind the (load-library "file") method. 22:27
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DrForr I wonder if there's an argument for creating another v-number for library versions that we can use 'when' on. 22:28
pmurias geekosaur: what do you think is the right approach?
geekosaur there's a reason everyone else relies on separate compilation in some form (e.g. Perl 5 XS, and the Pythin equivalent). there's too many things you need a C compiler to get right 22:30
DrForr Huh, that could actually have some merit - adding a :libver<7> to the class declaration and maybe having zef find the matching library and load the appropriate version. It doesn't solve the issue of incompatible APIs for the perl 6 side.
geekosaur and too many things that hide some of their API in C macros, and the ABI will be fairly opaque unless someone translates those macros into Perl 6 --- which will then probably be ABI dependent and need to be rewritten for different versions
timotimo cffi in python parses headers i think 22:31
it's a pypy-team invention
DrForr And then we're off to the Perl 5 XS races again, with macro layers but at least this time it'd be in a module rather than cluttering up core.
pmurias geekosaur: Perl 5 XS doesn't look like something that was carefully designed 22:33
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jnthn I figure even then, you'd do it by compiling a C library to act as the mapping layer, and using NativeCall to talk to that mapping library. 22:34
geekosaur I didn't say it was carefully designed. I said it goes through a C compiler
timotimo i mean, how hard can it be to re-implement gcc in nqp
jnthn Or, more clearly, using the same "call stuff from a loaded native library" VM-level interface, even if the NativeCall module itself was circumvented. 22:36
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metelik hello everyone 22:37
timotimo greetings metelik
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metelik after a bit of a break from perl (current project is in elixir) I decided to give p6 a go ;) here the story starts 22:38
has anyone had any joy using zef ?
DrForr Well, from my standpoint I'd settle for something I could pass to the :native(...) adverb to (lazily if need be) generate the path the right library. Too many UNIX variants...
metelik: Have you been having issues? 22:39
metelik I daresay so
DrForr I know that Liz had some ideas, but I had to teach so I never heard if she made progress, and it's late over there. I'll throw a .tell in here... 22:40
metelik not sure whether this is due to lack of experience with p6, non-exaustive documentation (or both)
I just installed rakudo+moarVM on my NetBSD host
DrForr .tell lizmat Did you make any headway with Lembark's problem vis-a-vis readline? I've got time and inspiration to throw in whatever ideas you've got. 22:41
yoleaux DrForr: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
metelik and was hoping to get it going in few
minutes to be precise
:D
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DrForr metelik: NetBSD, nice, we need more OSen to run on. I take it you're getting errors? 22:41
metelik # perl6 You may want to `zef install Readline` or `zef install Linenoise` or use rlwrap for a line editor To exit type 'exit' or '^D' > use Zef::CLI
timotimo oh, you're trying to use zef from inside the repl? 22:42
metelik yup because from shell it had failed ;) 22:43
timotimo that's unusual
metelik Use of uninitialized value % of type Any in string context. Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful. in sub guess-path at /home/srcs/pkgsrc/wip/p6-zef/work/.destdir/usr/pkg/share/perl6/site/sources/5F41CB8F10943DCE9677D3F0E81EA6A5302F4134 (Zef::Config) line 21 in sub preprocess-args-config-mutate at /home/srcs/pkgsrc/wip/p6-zef/work/.destdir/usr/pkg/share/perl6/site/sources/8CF719A
DrForr The '> use Zef::CLI' was a giveaway there :)
timotimo maybe Zef::CLI wants to inspect @*ARGS?
metelik zef install Readline Badly placed ()'s.
both csh and bash 22:44
timotimo i haven't seen that output yet
how did you install rakudo?
geekosaur csh error
DrForr 'zef' is an external program, trying to invoke that from the REPL doesn't make much sense to me.
timotimo i'd assume "zef" is the launcher that is actually a shell script that invokes the perl6 binary (shell script) 22:45
if it doesn't have the right hashbang, that could be trouble
tbrowder_ .tell tyil i’m not going to make my eta for defn class today, life intervened, sorry.
yoleaux tbrowder_: I'll pass your message to tyil.
timotimo like, maybe it has #!/bin/sh but it uses bash-isms? 22:46
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geekosaur it sounds to me like it's trying to use csh 22:46
which really isn't going to work if it's intended for sh
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metelik darn ffox 22:53
bash-4.4# cat /usr/pkg/bin/zef #!/usr/pkg/bin/perl6 sub MAIN(:$name is copy, :$auth, :$ver, *@, *%) { CompUnit::RepositoryRegistry.run-script("zef", :dist-name<zef>, :$name, :$auth, :$ver); }
this the wrapper that got installed
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DrForr /usr/pkg/bin/perl6 - Perl6 is in NetBSD ports? 22:56
metelik yup
rakudo per se 22:57
I think rakudo-star looks a bit abandoned
zef is in its wip
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DrForr It's great to know it's in the ports tree, but especially for zef I'd definitely install from source, or at least rakudo.org. 22:58
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metelik lemme check the origin 22:58
DrForr (or wherever we're telling people to install from - I'd use rakudobrew, but that's not the popular choice.) 22:59
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metelik it was fetched from github.com/ugexe/zef 23:01
tag v0.1.26
okidok slightly behind ;) 23:02
the other question I had was- is it possible to bytecompile a module 23:03
then feed the VM with the already bytecompiled code?
DrForr They build to a .precomp directory by default.
metelik ? 23:05
DrForr I.E. they're precompiled.
metelik haven't noticed such a thing hence I am asking 23:06
the only erxperience I have so far is that perl6 test.pl takes way longer than with perl5
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metelik bash-4.4# perl6 --target=moar test.pl ===SORRY!=== Cannot dump this object; no dump method 23:08
am I missing something ?
well if the port is incomplete I could put some work in it ;)
DrForr What does 'perl6 --version' return? 23:09
metelik it is christmas ver
ash-4.4# perl6 --version This is Rakudo version 2017.09 built on MoarVM version 2017.09.1 implementing Perl 6.c.
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metelik that debug print comes from nqp 23:12
DrForr Quite a bit behind... what debug print? (looks back)
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metelik Cannot dump this object; no dump method 23:13
nqp --version This is nqp version 2017.09 built on MoarVM version 2017.09.1
test.pl contains only a print statement 23:14
DrForr Right. I don't think you need to specify '--target=moar' explicitly, unless you're running multiple versions. Are you?
Sorry, multiple backends, not versions.
metelik that'd be my best educated guess too
but where the bytecompiled version of the thing go ? 23:15
i tried the -o option but also without success
DrForr .precomp or some other .dot directory.
You shouldn't need special CLI options just to run a file. If you're expecting it to be like gcc, don't. It's closer to shell or python/ruby. 23:16
'perl6 test.pl' should be all you need.
metelik but then it absolutely makes no sense 23:17
as there's no gain
only penalty in bytecompiling time
comparing to interpreted version 23:18
geekosaur I would hope you're not only running it once ever
timotimo 2017.09 is unlikely to work with today's zef
and --target=moar won't work without an --output flag i don't think 23:19
metelik bash-4.4# perl6 --target=moar test.pl --output=test.p6 ===SORRY!=== Cannot dump this object; no dump method
DrForr metelik: Again, there should be a .precomp directory generated after the initial run, it'll check if there's a .precomp/test.pl file is there and run that instead...
timotimo it might have to be --target=mbc actually 23:20
metelik there's something in the home directory
but it is not that .precom/test.pl
timotimo we only precompile modules, not scripts
DrForr Oh, right. use D::Oh. 23:21
timotimo use D'oh;
DrForr Wasn't actually aware of that, come to think of it.
timotimo you can ask --stagestats what part of the script takes so long
i.e. if it's parsing, then precompilation can get you a benefit
DrForr I was actually just talking with ^pudge about that module at TPC.
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metelik bash-4.4# perl6 --target=moar test.pl --output=test.p6 ===SORRY!=== 23:24
timotimo it has to be --target=mbc
metelik same stuff
timotimo but it'll work better if you just put the code in the mainline of a module and just "use" that
oh, haha 23:25
you're passing --output to the test.pl script
that's why it's not being picked up
metelik -o, --output=name specify name of output file
input is test.pl
i chose test.p6 as output 23:26
timotimo yes, but it has to come before test.pl
metelik not the same file ;)
it was stage parse taking so long 23:29
timotimo OK, then you'll actually get a benefit from precompilation
metelik but come on
my gramma parses it faster 23:30
bash-4.4# cat test.pl print "dupa maryny";
0.3s??!!
timotimo that's all your script is?
metelik yes
i wanna just give it a go
timotimo Stage parse : 0.199
metelik and get the environment running ;)
perl5 does it in a lightning speed 23:31
timotimo stage parse contains loading the core setting, which is big
it's only spending a tiny bit of time parsing your code
check the stagestats of -e '', it'll take 0.188 (on my machine) to parse the empty string, but it's just a fixed cost that every script gets 23:32
oh, i had optimization turned off
Stage parse : 0.082 23:33
that's what i'm used to
metelik my machine has only two cores
2GHz each
timotimo doesn't matter for this workload
metelik so yes printing a string may take half of a second ;)
yes i know
but ok stats do not have to be overly accurate 23:34
timotimo anyway, we're optimizing moar and rakudo all the time, you may want to get a more up to date version to get better performance
metelik the idea is to get the VM on let;'s say some embedded system and run the bytecompilaed code 23:35
let's say the modules
the main script may remain interpreted then bytecompiled
timotimo you currently won't get around having it run through the perl6 binary
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metelik the vital question is how to produce the perl binary 23:36
timotimo moarvm requires libuv; that may not work on your embedded system
metelik bash-4.4# ls /usr/pkg/lib/libuv.* /usr/pkg/lib/libuv.a /usr/pkg/lib/libuv.la /usr/pkg/lib/libuv.so /usr/pkg/lib/libuv.so.1 /usr/pkg/lib/libuv.so.1.0.0 23:37
timotimo if your embedded system runs netbsd, that's gonna be fine
metelik nad that libuv I most likely shall crosscompile for the target
;)
timotimo if it's something like a attiny or even atmega, that won't have libuv support, for lack of unix on it 23:39
well, i don't know if maybe netbsd would run on it
but the lack of a MMU is usually troublesome 23:40
metelik naj 'twill run BSD 23:41
timotimo cool
metelik limited dram but still
timotimo i mean, there's linux for nintendo ds, which is based on uclinux 23:42
metelik didn't know that bit 23:43
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metelik heard some roumouirs about the nintendo switch 23:44
running beautifully customised kernel
but dunno whether those are true
k 'tis running late here... I shall put the perl6 frustration on a long finger ;) 23:45
timotimo seeya! 23:47
metelik actually is there any documentation available ?
on how to use perl6 ?
the only thing i have is the bloody --help
timotimo lots
we have docs.perl6.org, we have books, we have perl6intro, we have learnxinyminutes, the list goes on 23:48
metelik you know i tried the perl6 official tutorial first right ?
timotimo i don't think we have an official tutorial
can you tell me where you found that?
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metelik i looked @ prl6intro.com 23:49
timotimo ah, that's good, but it's not "the official tutorial"
metelik i was reiderected there from the page with a butterfly ;) 23:50
but I did not mean the language itself
those bloody options: --encoding=mode specify string encoding mode
--target=<guess what the heck put in there> 23:51
so far I read internet and did not found anything that worked
did not find*
timotimo the official, encouraged, and only supported way to use precompilation is to use the automatic precompilation that you get for modules
you're digging around in the guts, where we don't have as much user-friendly (or user-targeted) info & help 23:52
that's not a cool situation for sure
metelik but if i would change my test.pl to test.pm
timotimo it should go into a lib/ folder
and you will need a -I lib, too
metelik oh ok 23:53
so then i would eventually get the precompiled module
timotimo after the first use, the precompiled file will be there
metelik what the --output option is for then ? 23:54
timotimo it directs the result of the stage supplied in --target to a file
some stages don't have a textual output format, so outputting them to stdout makes no sense
every entry in the stagestats list can be passed to --target 23:55
parse, ast, and optimize are usually the most interesting ones
metelik is there any particular reason for which i could not get the mbc or moar stages outputed for my sorry test.pl ? 23:56
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metelik perl6 --stagestats -e 'print "dupa maryny"' --tagert=ast --output=xxx 23:56
timotimo yes, you put the --target option after test.pl, which means perl6 didn't get the option
metelik 0
null 23:57
nil
timotimo and there the -e got the option
as i said, it needs to go in front of the script
otherwise it's options to the script itself
metelik ahhhh
timotimo looks like i didn't make myself clear :S
metelik nope it is already 1am 23:58
in here
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