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Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: I did see it. No worries. 00:01
I just thought of a nice metaphore. We are a group of 20 friends and we have decided we all go on a nice trip together. All of us. Six of us tell the others "we hate the beach, we will not go to the beach, whatever else is fine". 00:02
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woolfy Discussions go on and on and on. Planning a trip is a lot of work, lots of discussions. Museum, zoo, old city center, planetarium, geochache hunting, countryside, harbour, sea trip, ballooning, skydiving, etc. 00:03
tony-o in this case, it is another drag and drop .dmg
woolfy At the end, a small minority decides for the beach.
At the end, 14 people go to the beach. Six friends do not join. Some of them, because they cannot stay too long in the sun, others because they hate the sand. Whatever. They just do not join in. 00:04
Zoffix took me to the beach. I hate the beach. I really do hate sunbathing. A lake would have been fine. This was lake Rakudo. He took me to Beach Raku. I am very unhappy and I will not join in. 00:05
dduncan I didn’t see most discussion, but are you saying that using “Rakudo” as an alias for Perl 6 would have been fine for you? 00:07
tony-o zoffix what happened to two months of polite asking? colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...-10-08#l23 00:09
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SmokeMachine woolfy: I’m not sure if it was the minority... 00:17
Wouldn’t be better if the 6 people had fought against the beach? 00:19
tony-o they did 00:22
AlexDaniel heh, reading “Raku” so many times in the last few days, I'm starting to love the name 00:25
tony-o at least you're not pretending it's an alias 00:26
AlexDaniel it's an alias
tony-o sure
AlexDaniel I mean that I love “Raku” as the word, which I didn't initially like 00:27
how did you get that I have no idea
but then, I guess my English is just not good enough to express what I mean
tony-o ah, it's on the tail end of an argument i won't recount because there is a backlog 00:30
my mistake AlexDaniel
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AlexDaniel woolfy: I don't think it is accurate. More like some people wanted to swim and others wanted to sunbathe. We are all at the same beach, together. Swimming is now finally legal and safe (because interested parties have put their effort into it). Some people will not sunbathe at all and will only swim, others won't swim and will only sunbathe. There are people who will do both. In the end we will all have fun at the same party. Stop 00:48
flipping people who have fun in the water off just because it's not your thing.
After all, nobody is forcing you into the water. But yes, you will have to witness others swimming. How bad can it be? 00:53
tony-o if they can't stay long in the sun then sitting on the beach while others swim is still painful 00:55
dduncan Following this analogy, beach umbrellas are popular for people who can’t stay in the sun. 00:57
But granted those people aren’t really having the fun participating either.
AlexDaniel well, in my story they *want* to sunbathe. Just for some reason they want others to not have an opportunity to swim, at least not officially.
timotimo perfect analogy. someone tells them "i can't go in the sun, so i can't go to the beach" and instead of believing they have a good reason, you say "oh just use an umbrella" and take them anyway :) 00:58
tony-o that isn't an apt analogy, people don't want to rename perl6 - it's not that they don't want other people to call it rakudo or something
timotimo also, swimming would have been fine in the lake, too
tony-o timotimo: lol
Juerd These beach analogies are amusing 01:02
Keep them coming :)
I don't understand any of them but at least it looks like a nice vacation 01:03
tony-o the alias path is a thinly veiled shoe horn to a rename 01:04
AlexDaniel I don't think these analogies are any useful. IMO the main problem right now is that people are overreacting 01:05
tony-o: how can it lead to a rename if “perl 6” as a name is so great?
timotimo i think the overreaction was "larry wall says raku is the official alias name" becoming "we replace perl6 with raku everywhere we possibly can as fast as possible" 01:06
where "as fast as possible" happens to overlap with "before larry has a chance to see what's going on and say something"
AlexDaniel timotimo: ok, where did that happen?
timotimo that's my interpretation anyway
AlexDaniel perl6 being replaced with raku I mean
tony-o it's happening right now
timotimo that's what the "synonym on stackoverflow" thing sounded like before it was explained 01:07
dduncan I don’t think Perl 6 being actually renamed to Raku is a bad thing. To me it looks the same as Apple using the name Swift for their next version of Objective C.
AlexDaniel where? Somebody added an additional ｢raku｣ tag to stackoverflow questions that were tagged ｢perl6｣?
ingy meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/3...6-and-raku
AlexDaniel stackoverflow synonyms is a technical problem (two different tags with the same meaning) 01:08
tony-o timotimo: it doesn't help that the major proponent of the rename isn't exactly honest in his accounts with how the alias came to be
timotimo dduncan: is swift really just a next version of objective c?
isn't it kind of the opposite?
dduncan That was always my understanding.
timotimo isn't perl6 being called perl6 more like apple calling swift Objective C 2
dduncan Exactly.
timotimo tony-o: that reference does not resolve
tony-o it would seem so
ingy wait until p6 has to take on cache invalidation! 01:09
dduncan I mean, using Raku instead of Perl for this new major version is like Apple using Swift instead of Objective C, and not calling it Objective C 2.
timotimo to me at least
tony-o impolite enough for this reaction: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...8-10-18#l6 01:10
polite asking: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...1-05#l1558
ingy anyone got a good stage name for YAML?
dduncan JSON
tony-o knowing that he's been asking for more than 2 months: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...-10-08#l23
AlexDaniel dduncan: you mean Perl *6* 01:12
tony-o it's not a discussion if the major proponent is a memoryless system
AlexDaniel or maybe not, I'm really not following anymore :)
tony-o lol dduncan ingy
AlexDaniel tony-o: that first link is irrelevant. There was a lack of communication, we resolved it by communicating 01:13
tony-o AlexDaniel: metacpan.org/pod/JSON::XS#JSON-and-YAML
AlexDaniel: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...8-10-18#l9 <- that would make it seem to be that nudging was in fact happening 01:14
dduncan Re the YAML/JSON thing, I actualy invented a new one, called it MUON. Fully specced, still have to make a parser/generator though.
tony-o enough to irritate the side being nudged, which isn't irrelevant to me saying that zoffix wasn't politely asking 01:15
timotimo what features does it have, dduncan?
ingy dduncan: I'm already using MUON as a stage name for YAML 01:16
tony-o timotimo: those links were meant for you ^ re:context why i think the recount of how the alias came to be isn't honest
i have a postgres plugin that supports muon
ingy dduncan: I'll come up with a stage name for your MUON for you
AlexDaniel tony-o: what happened: a blog post asking TimToady to make a decision was posted. TimToady did not respond in any way after a significant amount of time. Zoffix started to think that no progress is being done in that direction, but 6.d was approaching. So Zoffix started looking for alternative (less official solutions). TimToady responded that he is working on it. Zoffix stopped alternative efforts.
dduncan timotimo: In a nutshell, MUON is analagous to JSON but more strongly typed; distinct syntax for maybe 2 dozen types. Some Perl 6 design influence. Includes specific support for representing source code as data also. 01:17
AlexDaniel the initial blog post clearly asked for Nov 1st deadline, it was right there from the beginning, and TimToady seemed to be OK with that
ingy dduncan: best of luck
tony-o why exactly is zoffix imposing deadlines on LW ?
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ingy dduncan: you should get Tom Werner Preston involved 01:18
dduncan timotimo, ingy: github.com/muldis/Muldis_Object_Notation
I consider the spec “done” but pull requests welcome. Will have implementations soon.
AlexDaniel tony-o: because Zoffix also works on marketing materials and 6.d related stuff, which is connected to the aliasing effort proposed in the blog post 01:19
dduncan In one sense what NQP is to Perl 6, MUON is meant to be for some other langauges.
tony-o the aliasing effort was created by the blog post
AlexDaniel that's what I said, yes
dduncan Relevant here because Perl 6 is a major influence on MUON etc. 01:20
tony-o and so lw *must* respond to every blog post question or we fire for effect?
AlexDaniel “I ask that Larry Wall renders his decision on the alias by November 1, 2018, so we would have the time to create proper informational materials for the 6.d language release, during which time, the name alias would be officially announced, if one is chosen.”
ingy dduncan: I just started #muon for my yaml stage name
AlexDaniel tony-o: Larry was free to reject the request, or ignore it, or anything 01:21
tony-o don't ignore that his recount of "2 months of asking" is backed up by his claim that we've had over a year to discuss with him personally
he didn't seem free to ignore it if the renaming was going to happen through other channels
AlexDaniel it's not renaming
Juerd yet
AlexDaniel :S
tony-o let's not play pretend 01:22
and that ignores the point, that zoffix is imposing deadlines on lw by whatever means possible
AlexDaniel it was a request, the deadline was part of the request 01:23
I see no problem with that
tony-o and if he didn't respond to that request by 11/1 ?
we'll set up a poll and then go with whatever name people vote on
Juerd Many participants in these debates are assuming that the "stage name" will eventually overtake the "legal name". Nobody knows for sure, but there are proponents of the alias who want this to happen, and there are opponents who are afraid it will.
tony-o the option 'wait for input from lw' wasn't there
AlexDaniel then Zoffix and others would look for alternative solutions
tony-o alternative solutions doesn't include 'wait for input' 01:24
AlexDaniel tony-o: you say it wasn't there, but we ended up doing just that?
how come the option that wasn't there was picked in the end 01:25
Juerd Personally, what was once my stage name (nickname, handle) became my legal name, in part because it was too hard to keep both names around.
tony-o because he responded to your request
so, it wasn't picked, he responded and everyone acted in kind
AlexDaniel just stop bending the truth, there's no grand evil conspiracy behind a simple alias 01:26
Juerd So I can definitely see that happening, even if initially people aren't specifically planning for it.
tony-o i'm not bending the truth or claiming evil conspiracy. i'm saying that the past is being recounted in a really dishonest way
Juerd AlexDaniel: It might happen despite explicit disclaimers
AlexDaniel Juerd: I'm not denying that “Raku” may be used by majority in the end, time will tell. “Perl 6” can also be in that position 01:27
Juerd AlexDaniel: Both those in favour of that, and those afraid of that, will assume it will happen. 01:29
tony-o seems the point will continue to be missed 01:30
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ingy it's raining ice picks on your steel shores 01:31
Juerd tony-o: There are so many points, I lost track
tony-o Juerd: in reference to your last comment 01:32
Juerd I might be missing the point, but which one? :)
tony-o Both those in favour of that, and those afraid of that, will assume it will happen. 01:33
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Juerd Oh, I should read it as "seems to be the point that ..."? 01:33
tony-o that works :-) 01:34
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Juerd Sorry, just confused 01:34
I should go to bed anyway
tony-o haha
Juerd I'm in for another rude awakening by neighbours with hammer drills removing tiles from a bathroom one by one. 01:35
tony-o i think most people don't care that the person writing the history about the alias aren't able to recount the events with any sort of consistency
Juerd: gross. it's leaf blowers here
Juerd I'm sure many will be able to recount the events accurately, but how likely is that in a hot debate where everyone seems to have a strong opinion? 01:36
I don't think it's really possible to leave one's own perspective out of it 01:37
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tony-o i don't really care, i don't like the idea of an alias - either rename it or don't - but i'll still help maintain zef 01:38
but it's not really a decent debate if the facts are made up as you go
AlexDaniel that's right 01:39
Juerd Agreed there, an alias is hard work and leads to a lot of misunderstanding without actually getting rid of the old name. I've been in favour of renaming (I'm sure you'll be able to find proof of this from 2004 or 2006), but I've come to accept that it wasn't going to happen. The alias seems like none(@solutions) ~~ any(@problems) 01:41
tony-o claiming the request is only 2 months old is a little disingenuous for my taste as that discussion has been going on longer than i've been in the perl6 game (and that's a lot longer than 2 months)
dduncan ingy: Actually, MUON is already the stage name for my format; its full name is Muldis Object Notation.
tony-o Juerd: lol, that's perfect "The alias seems like none(@solutions) ~~ any(@problems)"
Juerd tony-o: As far as I know, the *alias* request is pretty young. Most related discussion over the past 15 years has been about *renaming*.
dduncan ingy: Which Tom Werner Preston? 01:43
Juerd Anyhow, I'm off. Good night! 01:44
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tony-o good night 01:44
Juerd react { whenever Supply.interval(1) { say "z" }; whenever Promise.in(7 * 60 * 60) { done() } } 01:46
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dduncan ingy: FYI, my quick response of JSON to your YAML stage name question was meant as a light-hearted joke. If there is bad history of people comparing the formats then I was unaware of it and meant no slight. 01:52
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ferreira The creation of the alias is a conciliation. Read the fine print: Larry Wall does not want to let go of the Perl 6 name. And why should he? He created Perl 1 to 6, and is supposed to have a say in that (following the the usual respect open-source community gives to such benevolent dictators). 02:06
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ferreira The alias also improves the repulsion by Perl 5 advocates, which think Perl 6 stole Perl 5 of its glory yet to be achieved (which is partly true). 02:08
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Zoffix tony-o: I think you misunderstood what I said. My original blog posts are dated so you could verify exact dates. Going by memory, the start was summer 2017 when I made the argument that the name was detrimental and said I would start using "Rakudo". About two month later someone asked Larry what he thought about the idea, at which point larry mentioned the alias idea. We got excited and birthed "6lang" as 02:09
ferreira And finally the alias gives you a name to take Perl to people who would not want to look at it just because of the name. Pretty silly, but the alias work in these 3 fronts. 02:10
Zoffix alias and started using it, and moritz immediatelly asked us to stop until final decision and it was decided the decision will be made during 6.d release. You can see the commits to perl6/6 d-prep repo to find the date when I first added alias to TODO with my makimg request to Larry a month before release. The 6.d got delayed by a year and spec review took me longer than anticipated so I didn't prepare the
detailed marketing plan, but other than that I did write my open letter to Larry a month before Diwali. This is the first time I proposed anything to Larry directly.
woolfy: I didn't take you to any beaches, the decision was rendered by Larry
Zoffix goes away for a few months. 02:12
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dduncan So what happened now, tying an official alias to the 6.d release, has been publicly the plan for over a year. 02:24
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Xliff m: use NativeCall; sub malloc(uint64 $s) is native { * }; my Pointer $a = malloc(10); say +$a; 03:43
camelia Type check failed in assignment to $a; expected NativeCall::Types::Pointer but got Mu (Mu)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: use NativeCall; sub malloc(uint64 $s) returns Pointer is native { * }; my Pointer $a = malloc(10); say +$a;
camelia 76042912
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Xliff m: use NativeCall; class A is repr('CPointer') {}; sub malloc(uint64 $s) returns A is native { * }; my $a = malloc(10); say +$a; 03:44
camelia Cannot resolve caller Numeric(A: ); none of these signatures match:
(Mu:U \v: *%_)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: use NativeCall; class A is repr('CPointer') {}; sub malloc(uint64 $s) returns A is native { * }; my $a = malloc(10); say +nativecast(Pointer, $a); 03:45
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Xliff m: use NativeCall; class A is repr('CPointer') {}; sub malloc(uint64 $s) returns A is native { * }; my $a = malloc(10); my $b := nativecast(Pointer, $a); my $c = $b; say +$b; say +$c 03:46
camelia 88617872
88617872
Xliff Does anyone know if latest rakudo on git is compilable? 04:14
Answer: Unfortunately not. 04:18
OK. Correction on my last bit. It is working. I had to restart from scratch. 04:25
Is there any way to get zef to install modules from a module list it creates?
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Geth perl6-most-wanted: db9cf9ca32 | Altai-man++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | most-wanted/modules.md
Remove LDAP mention
 04:50
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Xliff .seen FROGGS 05:31
yoleaux I saw FROGGS 28 Jul 2018 11:59Z in #perl6: <FROGGS> though that'd mean that if something was not present at compile time, it wont be used if it get installed later on
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tyil is there a p6weekly that I missed? 05:55
yoleaux 2 Nov 2018 19:06Z <uzl> tyil: ;)! What was the reason behind it? In one of his presentations, Damian was using (and sort of recommending?) the use of n...m instead of (m..n).reverse
tyil or a raku weekly? :>
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Xliff rut roh 06:05
Cro::HTTP is not installing
Oh. nvm. It was just being slow. 06:06
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Kaiepi cro websockets has some issues on my machine 06:49
i should make an ussue about it once i find out what's going on again
another thing i could do is implement permessage-deflate support 06:52
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Kaiepi i forget if i asked earlier last night, but does anyone have any idea why this gives ridiculous file descriptors for udp sockets? hastebin.com/qigoqenela.cpp 07:02
i'm talking fds in the positive/negative hundreds of thousands
this doesn't happen with tcp sockets, just udp ones
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Kaiepi using raw c doesn't cause this to happen 07:05
Geth doc: 2f9a31e068 | (JJ Merelo)++ | 2 files
Creates file

And links from previously 404ed link. Closes #1813
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lookatme_q Is the weekly report ready ?? 07:36
jmerelo lookatme_q: there's going to be none this week, I'm afraid. 07:37
lookatme_q jmerelo, oh, Why ?
jmerelo lookatme_q: The raku thing. 07:38
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lookatme_q :/ Why they just make a change or not immediately 07:39
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El_Che good morning 08:22
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CIAvash tyil, lookatme_q: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...11-05#l613 08:47
tyil CIAvash: ty 08:48
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CIAvash TimToady made an alias as a middle ground and compromise(between doing nothing and renaming), but one side is not happy with even a compromise. It's probably best to wait for TimToady to come back and talk to us, instead of us speaking on his behalf. 09:00
lookatme_q oh, sad to hear that :/ 09:01
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El_Che The good part is that people are voicing their support or opposition to the alias. 09:02
The terrible part is that the organiser of TAPCE Europe threw a tantrum and killed the conference 09:03
"until the alias be recalled"
even if heated discussion is a good thing. Everything is just sad to watch 09:04
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El_Che so as long we keep it civilised, it should be OK 09:05
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El_Che morning lizmat 09:10
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scimon \me starts to work on slides for LPW. 09:52
El_Che scimon++
what is the subject? 09:53
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Altreus killed a conference because we might give a language an alternative name? 09:53
adults can be childish sometimes 09:54
tadzik right, aren't you supposed to call that LP/RW now? :P
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El_Che Altreus: yeah :( 09:54
lizmat Altreus El_Che: you have a right to say that once you've organized a 3-day conference for 300+ people on your own taking all financial risk 09:55
as far as I know, you haven't, so please stop that
El_Che lizmat: you miss the point 09:56
lizmat as long as the Perl community is dependent on people such as ash to have their conferences organized
Altreus Seems like the point of an alias is you don't have to change anything if you're using the original ref
El_Che the guy can be gandhi, but even if Ghandi throws a tantrum is still a childish move
lizmat I think you're missing the poinnt
"Seems like the point of an alias is you don't have to change anything if you're using the original ref" 09:57
Altreus: indeed
and that's exactly what is happening onw
El_Che you missed the tantrum? Do you need links with the threads and "I take my football home" posts?
lizmat if you start announcing things like "Raku Perl 6", you've soiled both brands 09:58
El_Che anyway, he can do whatever hi wants with *his* conference
lizmat El_Che: sorry to hear that, but that's life
El_Che that's what I used to tell children that behave like that when I was a child
yep
lizmat I mean FOSDEM can also be considered childish for not having a Perl DevRoom in 2019
there are reasons 09:59
El_Che yes
lizmat shit happens
El_Che Perl 5 is loosing popularity, perl 6 still looks for a niche
that is what happens
but nobody throw an tantrum
nobody threatened to kill anything over the years for whatever reason
lizmat I remember at least one tantrum that involved some coffee cups
El_Che you know why? adults
lizmat wil concentrate on writing a blog now 10:00
El_Che lizmat: I understand and respect all of your arguments (while agreeing and disagreeing with many of those), besides the one defending a tantrum that killed the biggest perl conference in Europe. 10:02
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El_Che Shit happens is a weak excuse 10:02
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lizmat I repeat: as long as the Perl community is dependent on people such as ash to have their conferences organized 10:03
El_Che yes, we're fucked. I got that
woolfy dduncan: Rakudo already was an alias. Not officially named as such by Larry. But I never saw the need for that, as it was / is widely used. 10:04
lizmat we have *no* right to say anything about anything that person does
we can suggest at most
El_Che does? He just singlehanded killed it with a pluralis majestatis to give the impression that there is 1 than more person behind that account 10:05
lizmat El_Che: we were fucked long before ash offered to do a conference
Altreus if it's the biggest perl conference in Europe, why can't I find it on google?
El_Che lizmat: I agree on that part
Altreus I hadn't heard of it until now
El_Che Altreus: because we suck on marketing is the mantra :)
lizmat so instead of keeping going on about ash, instead you should start getting people together for a conference in 2020
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woolfy AlexDaniel: quite some people, including me, were very vocal against any official alias. We did not want to go to the beach, not for swimming, not for sunbathing, just not the beach. A museum would be fine (no official alias). People went to the beach without us. The group was split. 10:06
lizmat or in 2019, should ash continue his stance
anything else is not constructive and not helping
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lizmat and I think I can say what I'm saying, having been deeply involved in 2 european Perl conferences 10:06
and many, many Perl workshops and Perl Monger meetings 10:07
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El_Che lizmat: I struggling to see the point to organise a conference where everyone is unhappy with the status quo and unhappy about minimal changes 10:07
lizmat I think ash would agree with you there
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El_Che we seem to have the same discussion every 6 months 10:07
woolfy dduncan: people with a high risk of skin cancer cannot go to the beach, cannot sit under an umbrella: the radiation is just too high. Example: my brother-in-law. I learned a lot about cancer the last couple of years. And Perl 6 is not about cancer. This was about leaving people behind who did not wanted to go to the beach.
lizmat because not enough people are doing things
El_Che (again, I am not dismissing ashes past work or intentions, but his behaviour on this case) 10:08
(I would have respected if he cancelled, but not the threatening for reasons unrelated to the conference)
lizmat yeah, we should take him to a shrink to fix his tantrums: but don't fix him too much, we need the books and the conferences 10:09
I think it would be an adult who could accept a tantrum from someone who is doing a lot of work for the community 10:10
El_Che by the way, I am organising an (academic) conference in France in februari. I am not afraid of the work, but it feels in our case whatever you do, you loose
lizmat yeah, you lose. And if you're lucky, it won't cost you much
in the TPCiA case, Wendy and I were not so lucky 10:11
you can do a lot of good with 20K euros
El_Che lizmat: I explained that for conferences if not profesional it has consequences at work
I wouldn't care if ash burns all his perl 6 books in a tantrum
or comes here yelling (he hasn't for the record)
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lizmat so because *you* have a problem at work with an "unprofessional" conference, you need to go on about it here ? 10:12
El_Che but If people need to get approval to go to a conference and it's cancelled because of infighting you look like a fool
lizmat isn't that a bit, dare I say, childish ?
El_Che in our case, plane are booked well in advanced, non refundable
Kaiepi why is there so much drama here lately?
El_Che it is our problem, but that's how it works in our place (not my decision) 10:13
lizmat then that is a problem for you and your organisation
don't bring that here
El_Che yes, it is
sadly, you'll find it's more the rule than the exception
scimon El_Che: I'm going to cover 24 different Perl6 modules 10:14
El_Che anyway, like I said, I don't care (that much) now, I am trying to mentally move on an accept that the conference is not for me
Kaiepi which ones, if you don't mind sharing?
scimon Still choosing and I'd like to have some kind of surprise. 10:17
tadzik Kaiepi: because there is drama in the entire community, around us here, so to say
Kaiepi ah 10:18
should've expected, it's common in language communities
El_Che Kaiepi: we're all kind of special 10:19
Kaiepi true 10:20
it takes a special kind of person to be bold enough to stan a language that hasn't achieved great acceptance yet
scimon I'm keeping my head down on the alias thing.
Kaiepi personally i don't care about the alias thing 10:21
timotimo scimon: if you're going to cover one of mine, give me a heads-up so i can maybe paint over the most unsightly parts before people come storming my github page to read the code %)
Kaiepi i doubt any of my modules will show up in the talk but if they do let me know 10:22
woolfy Claudio Ramirez : stop saying that the biggest Perl Conference is killed. You are not truthfully in that. The conference is not killed. Shitov has paused the conference.
Claudio Ramirez: I told you yesterday already. Also, that in fact, he went on with organising work, I saw him do that.
El_Che woolfy: you missed until the Alias is "unannounced"
woolfy: why are you ignoring the most relevant part, the demands/ultimatum? 10:23
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: you keep repeating "tantrum tantrum" sounds like you really want him to stop organising so you have the best of reasons not to go. What? really?
Kaiepi it's good to see people care so much about the conferences, but just remember not everyone has the capability to make it to them
El_Che It's good that you give him credit in believe in his intentions and not his words
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: " He just singlehanded killed it " What? He said he paused it. And meanwhile, he went on. You are not correct here. 10:24
El_Che as I don't know the guy, I take is words and actions at face value
I am not a psychologist to know if the threatening is of bargaining chip or not
tadzik to follow up on Kaiepi: not everyone can pick and choose which ones they want to go to as they pop up
El_Che s/of/a/
tadzik in some cases it requires month of planning, either for work trips, vacation days, syncing it with spouses etc. 10:25
woolfy Shitov has made it very clear he was organising a conference for Perl. Perl 5 and Perl 6. he was busy with stuff for Perl 6, not for Raku. He paused it untill the naming issue was resolved.
El_Che woolfy: so, in short, you know the guy and you thing it's just empty threats. He will keep organising despite what he said.
tadzik if you save all your efforts for that one, biggest one each year and then there's suddenly a menacing "pause" in its organization, there'd better be a good reason, you'd think, right?
El_Che woolfy: that pretty much the definition of unprofessionalism to me. 10:26
tadzik but when the reason is so obviously personal, it does not look very comforting indeed
to avoid using the u-wor
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: I did not miss that. I take it with a grain of salt. 10:27
tadzik the perl community is much bigger than this naming debate
woolfy (I mean, the unannounced bit)
Kaiepi i wouldn't try to read people minds like this
El_Che woolfy: again, you know the guy. I don't. I take his words at face value.
tadzik we're making the entire community suffer becuase of an issue that *right now* only affects a select few
and we don't know if it will ever effectively affect anybody at all
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El_Che The organiser can ignore the raku *alias* completely for all I care. 10:28
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: it is not empty threats. I know the guy. Shitov has organised YAPC::Europe Riga and YAPC Europe Kiev and a lot of YAPC::Russias and other Perl-conferences and workshops. Shitov wrote Perl 6 at a Glance, Perl 6 Deep Dive and Using Perl. 10:29
El_Che But pausing the conference until the alias is retracted (== killing if not retracted) is something completely else
tadzik well, his rationale is that when you're making a conference for a language it's a bit tricky when it suddenly changes its name :)
but I really, really don't think that's the case here
woolfy Shitov is the person who has organised the largest amount of Perl events. If you do not know him, you have not been paying attention to the Perl world.
El_Che woolfy: if the threat is not empty, it's a real one. That's how I interpreted the communication. On that level, we agree then
tadzik I am completely sure that whatever, if any, alias actually catches on we won't see the effect in the general public until at least 2020
El_Che I wonder if a tantrum would be in order if mst re-announced Pumpkin Perl. I guess it wouldn't. 10:30
woolfy If anybody is a professional, it is Andrew Shitov. Organised 10+ YAPC's, 10+ Perl workshops, wrote 3 Perl 6 books (the first Perl 6 book ever that is useful), and contributed a lot to Perl 6.
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El_Che that's besides the point 10:30
tadzik woolfy: I don't believe any of us is diminishing his importance and the value of his work 10:31
woolfy And now Perl 6 is going to be renamed and all the work that Shitov has put into writing Perl 6 books (not Raku books), to promote Perl 6, is what... a waste of time?
El_Che he may be the creator of Linux, Perl and the Supernintendo for all of care.
woolfy Of course he throws a tantrum. I did too. And I am still in tantrum mode.
moritz woolfy: but it *isn't* being renamed
tadzik but nobody should be shielded from criticism because of things they've done in the past. And I do believe that what he does now is subject to criticism
El_Che If you threaten to kill a conference because people don't agree with you, your previous merits don't matter on this question 10:32
moritz heck, I've written Perl 6 books myself, and I don't feel threatened by this new alias
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tadzik this topic deserves a discussion panel at a conference, not a conference shutdown 10:32
our community is split, you don't need to be ash to see it
El_Che woolfy: you're consistently talking about renaming instead of aliasing. I think you missed TimToady's decision.
tadzik you don't fix arguments by shutting yourself off in another room
woolfy moritz: but it is being renamed, slowly, bit by bit.
El_Che for the records, I would have loved I renaming. 10:33
moritz woolfy: I don't see evidence for that
El_Che but that's not what we're talking here
see my remark on how he can ignore the raku alias for all I care
scimon timotimo: I'll try and notify people.
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El_Che woolfy: the thing I don't get in your argument is. 1. How to misrepresent an alias for a rename. 2. How you accept the "pausing" of the conference because the guy did good stuff before, ignoring the real life consequences that kind of behaviour has for the conference as a whole. 10:35
woolfy Perl 5 people are crowing victory. "FREE AT LAST", even, even with racist and insulting smears.
El_Che "Perl 5 people"
you're illustrating tadzik point about the fracured community
woolfy Yes, and I even saw somebody asking "so, now we can finally rename the next major update to Perl 5 to Perl 6?" 10:36
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El_Che woolfy: someone will ask that every 6 month and the heated discussions will return, burning some out again 10:36
hence why I *do* prefer a rename
the discussion will never go away 10:37
*however* this is NOT *this* discussion
there is no need to go to the atomic option
moritz even if we did a rename, the "Perl 6" name would be burned to be ever used for Perl 5
El_Che just wait, it will return
moritz: certainly
moritz: 6 is kind of a course version
woolfy Yes, but now Larry has said it is an ok alias . And at several places, Raku is mentioned instead of Perl 6. Zoffix even wrote a misleading text about Raku in his new brochure. And off it goes. This is going to go further and further. 10:38
El_Che (see PHP)
woolfy: yes, as it as expected
tadzik I do think that it was a bit early of Zoffix to use the alias already
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El_Che woolfy: I think a rename is needed, didn't get that, I would have loved to use the Rakudo alias (I love that name), didn't get that, so I'll use Raku as decided by Larry 10:39
I don't see the drama
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: dammit man, stop your childish behavior on what Shitov did... "atomic option".
tadzik El_Che: there's never drama in "I" :)
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: stop your own drama.
El_Che if people love the Perl 6 brand they'll keep using that and Raku will be a forgotten detail
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El_Che if people prefer the alias, maybe Zoffix had a good point after all 10:40
tadzik: good point :)
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timotimo scimon: but don't feel obligated to be nice about my modules just because i'm nice :) 10:42
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woolfy My tantrum sofar is, and Liz has stopped me doing it, is that I would rather stop supporting Perl altogether than use the name Raku. But as said, Liz has convinced me for now that I should not stop. 10:43
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woolfy Therefore I will continue. As today, preparing for Amsterdam Perl Mongers meeting, packing boxes and bags with swag for sale. 10:43
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CIAvash woolfy: Why are you pretending that people are making you use Raku? Use Perl 6 10:44
El_Che woolfy: without trolling you, that's the atomic version (" stop supporting Perl altogether")
maybe lizmat's blogpost idea is a good one. It may be less heated. 10:45
Kaiepi that's like cutting off contact with someone because they have a nickname you don't like 10:46
not everyone's going to call it raku
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El_Che woolfy: you're probably mad at me now. But I don't think different opinions should result in that scenario. In fact it will result in people not talking and resulting in more fracturing. 10:48
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: oooh, now you got more drama... Wendy said she is going to go atomic. How often are you going to repeat that? You repeated it dozens of times about Shitov.
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El_Che To be honest, the Perl 6 community is to small to afford that 10:48
woolfy: because --in my view-- that's exactly what he did 10:49
woolfy And if you read my text, is that I am going on. You see that, don't you? Or are you going to ignore that bit?
tadzik Kaiepi: I think woolfy's argument is that we may call it a nickname, but it will eventually become The Name. And thus destroy the work of people who worked their asses of to build and promote the Old Name
I understand that sentiment completely
Kaiepi ah
i misunderstood
tadzik people have invested much, including themselves, into the name Perl 6
Kaiepi: perhaps I have as well, but that's my best shot at it
El_Che the thing is, that *that* is exactly the argument of Perl 5 people against the Perl 6 name. 10:50
exactly
woolfy tadzik Kaiepi : indeed. Because that is my prediction. Perl 6 as a name is slowly but gradually going to be replaced with Raku. And then I can throw away my badges and buttons and stickers and tuits and brochures and Camelia Perl 6 butterfly stuffed toys and get myself drunk day after day by drinking my own Perl 6 wine.
tadzik I wonder if C people made this argument about C++ at some point
woolfy tadzik Kaiepi : Already, two people (Perl 5 people) said that if Raku is going to be the name of Perl 6, all Raku modules should be removed from CPAN because Raku is Raku and not perl. 10:51
tadzik woolfy: hah, that's indeed a interesting development
Kaiepi jesus
woolfy One of the next steps is that Perl conferences will no longer accept Raku talks because Raku is not Perl.
El_Che tadzik: I guess so, but less because of the lack of following versions numbers 10:52
Kaiepi this is more serious than i thought
tadzik woolfy: and I agree with you for the most part. I think the decision was made hastily, or at least hastily implemented. It has now caused damage before it has done anything good
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tadzik HOWEVER, I do not agree with actions of some in response to this. We're not an authoritarian state where if you don't like certain changes, you leave and never come back. There is room for discussion, debate, and change. And rollbacks. And clarifications 10:53
woolfy We all know PerlMonks not being "friendly" about Perl 6. Imagine how happy they are, they won, victory, Perl 6 can now f**k off, since it is Raku, and no longer Perl 6, so soon (maybe now already) Perl 6 is really absolutely unwelcome there. And that is just one of the places...
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El_Che woolfy: good riddance 10:54
is perlminks still a thing?
o
tadzik perhaps, *if* this is going to follow through, there's a need for a branding specification, like there's always a spec for using a flag: you can use this flag in this situation, this flag in this, you can'd to this and that to a flag and whatnot
Altreus do you suppose if Larry had started off calling it Raku, then places like Perlmongers would accept it because it's Larry's new thing and it's kinda like Perl?
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Altreus I do 10:55
that's the sort of thing people do
robertle goes of and reerves perlminks.org
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Altreus We like Perl = we like Larry = we like Larry's projects = we like Raku 10:55
tadzik if there was an official alias, I'd consider it obligatory for it to have a writeup on when and how it should be used
El_Che I should register that :)
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ribasushi_ >woolfy>tadzik Kaiepi : Already, two people (Perl 5 people) said ... modules should be removed from CPAN 10:55
tadzik for example: Raku Perl 6 in official announcements, Raku in casual conversations, Perl 6 only in technical documentation 10:56
ribasushi_ woolfy: can you link me to these?
tadzik I'm sure that's how a lot of people understand this already, myself included
El_Che ribasushi_: weren't you one of those people? :)
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: good riddance? Ah, well, thank you, I am still sad that my beloved PerlMonks became such a toxic place towards Perl 6. I have spent hundreds of hours there, loving Perl, reading and writing. Good Riddance is toxic to the core. Thank you for being toxic. You really just made my day. :-(
tadzik it *feels* like that's what a nickname Should Be
I'm Tadeusz „tadzik” Sośnierz in git logs, tadzik here, and in my national ID nobody cares about "tadzik" for a good reason
ribasushi_ not at all - I *specifically* jumped in to say that the "raku debacle" has nothing to do with any of what I am working on
woolfy ribasushi: no thank you, you have been toxic enough, you can find it yourself.
Altreus steady on 10:57
no need to set fire to people when they're actually here
then we all end up aflame
woolfy ribasushi: you said you are working on an alternative to CPAN where no perl 6 will be
El_Che woolfy: toxic? The place is very negative about Perl 6. The format is a 90s format, alien to new programmers. It's a time machine. I am not being toxic, I am saying "choose your battles, perlmonks is not worth fighting for" 10:58
tadzik if there's anything worth boycotting, IMHO, is the aliasing itself, since it's the least establish and well-defined of the names we have
figure it out before it causes conflict
and as of now, more conflict
so, in the words of ash: I'd like for the aliasing to be officially paused until futher notice
woolfy tadzik: I am already boycotting the alias and I am not the only one...
El_Che ribasushi_: thanks for the clarification
tadzik woolfy: I find that perfectly reasonable 10:59
Altreus have to agree with the sentiment about perlmonks
ribasushi_ woolfy: yes, I have been working on that since late 2016, mainly so there's a "no pull-request-challenge" cpan for those who want to get some work done. Among other things - yes I am not interested in hosting ( and paying for ) rakudo code, and because my work is *not* yet published, and there's a lot of ways to go, I jumped in to set the record as in "Zoffix didn't make me do anything"
Altreus I've not been there for a decade
I'm surprised it's still in use
ribasushi_ woolfy: `whois cpan.plus` reistered *way* before raku or any other renaming/alias talk started 11:00
El_Che: ^^
CIAvash tadzik: yes, that's why I asked before the aliasing if anybody thought about what happens afterwards. The details were not specified.
Altreus Anyway, I like Perl5 and I like Perl6 a little bit more but I'm not very good at it yet. I don't really care what it's called but I don't own either name, so I'm in no position to have an emotional connection to them
ribasushi_ that aside - I have no plans to work with anyone / influence anything on cpan.org - it can host whatever it wants to host 11:01
Altreus Seems like most arguments are get-off-my-lawn arguments
ribasushi_ woolfy: does this alleviate your concern?
El_Che whatever we do we're fucked 11:03
tadzik Altreus: I think a lot of people are looking at this as a "we won" or "we lost" or "they lost" topic :/
Skarsnik I don't care ^^
Altreus yes because people seem to think it's a war
timotimo ribasushi_: is cpan.plus going to throw out like 50% of perl 5 code?
El_Che - we do nothing: we alienate many Perl 5 people and also Perl 6 people that experience that the name is a blocking factor for adoption
tadzik Altreus: I guess it is to some, as some demonstrated
woolfy ribasushi : no 11:04
Altreus those are the toxic people
ribasushi_ timotimo: that's offtopic
tadzik "we're free at last, yayaya" and all that crap. Come on
El_Che - we rename it: we alienate lots of core people
- we alias it: same as aboce
above
timotimo ribasushi_: i'm just trying to understand what kind of sense "i don't want to host rakudo code" makes
El_Che we loose whatever we do
timotimo apart from "rakudo code" not being A Thing
Altreus anyone who thinks there's a war on who gets to use the name "perl" hasn't recognised that it's not theirs to protect
timotimo as far as i know, no parts of rakudo are hosted on cpan
Altreus The problems I can legitimately understand are a) the world in general hates Perl and we shouldn't use the name, and b) Perl5 and Perl6 are different things and we shouldn't try to make the one infrastructure support the other's ecosystem 11:05
ribasushi_ timotimo: in light of the current temperature discussing this here and now won't be productive, plus I am still designing things
timotimo OK 11:06
CIAvash tadzik: But I should have opened an issue for it instead of just asking on irc
Altreus the whole CPAN thing just feels like Perl6 is a little brother who's trying to be friends with Perl5 but Perl5 doesn't want it but their parents are making them share a room
ribasushi_ I signed in to understand what woolfy meant with "people are going to remove code from cpan" ( which imples cpan.org, for which I have zero plans to ever get involved with again )
El_Che ribasushi_: you have a closet full of fire resistent clothing, I pressume :) 11:07
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ribasushi_ woolfy: you mentioned "two perl5 people said" - ok, one is you misunderstanding what I meant / implied. can you link me to the second instance? 11:08
El_Che: you have no idea...
El_Che ribasushi_: I remeber a few ocassions, though ;) 11:09
woolfy ribasushi : no, I read your comment somewhere, and can't even find that one again, I just looked and can't find the other one. 11:11
El_Che Polls just opened in the USA. I'll switch to that drama today
woolfy ribasushi : you can understand that what you said can (and will) be misunderstood easily?
ribasushi: and my " people are going to remove code from cpan" is of course meant "people will remove perl 6 eh raku code from PAUSE", because that is my prediction, and I have learned that Perl 6 stuff is not on CPAN but on PAUSE. And I did other predictions. And I would be extremely happy if my predictions will be proven wrong on the long run. 11:13
tadzik CIAvash: well, you're not at fault here, as apparently this whole thing went on on IRC without a proper process 11:14
El_Che tadzik: see my scenarios above. What ever is decided upon will result in some people being extremely unhappy.
ribasushi_ woolfy: I personally have no interest in influencing anything on PAUSE/CPAN/Metacpan, you have my word for it 11:15
tadzik El_Che: yes indeed. And that's why I also think we shouldn't implement either
I'm okay with the idea of a nickname, as long as everyone knows and agrees on what "nickname" means
El_Che tadzik: there is zero scenario that I can think of that would result in general happiness. I hoped the alias was a "good enough" compromis for most people.
tadzik otherwise, if we arbitrarily assign a name to a thing we make a lot of people confused and unhappy
it feels like we've been there before
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
El_Che we have
and we will be again in about 6 months 11:16
give or take some weeks
ribasushi_ and my dislike of rakudo is easily rivaled with my disdain of p5p, so no favoritism either
anyway, carry on &
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woolfy ribasushi : thank you. Please, the next time you make a comment about what you are doing, please make it a bit clearer, so you don't make me extremely unhappy with thinking "riba is going to kill Perl 6 on CPAN". Because you got me there in tears. 11:16
dammit, I should have typed 10 seconds faster... 11:17
Altreus I don't want to be insensitive, but why is it so important to you that Perl6 stuff is available on CPAN?
tadzik woolfy: I think we're all guilty here about assuming intentions about a few words being spoken :(
woolfy tadzik : oh indeed
tadzik and now we have a war over *perceived intentions* more than anything else
El_Che woolfy: I read it as "riba is working on a secret Perl5 only CPAN alternative, not on chaging CPAN itself"
tadzik it's dumb
woolfy Altreus: because to me, CPAN is the core of all things Perl...
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woolfy tadzik: I never said i am not dumb 11:18
El_Che woolfy: old school perl when there was no decentralised github/gitlab/etc alternatives and no free travis-like services
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: you read that in those few words? Wow. I am jealous of your genius. I feel dumber by the moment.
Altreus But again it feels like Perl6 is trying to be Perl5's younger sibling and Perl5 just wants to do its homework in peace
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: thank you for explaining what I already know. Please stop there.
tadzik woolfy: oh, we all are, it takes a wise one to know that :)
El_Che woolfy: don't go there. There is no need to antagonize on this.
tadzik we're all very good at jumping to conclusions 11:19
it usually works fine as a survival mechanism
not so much here and now
El_Che I am saying that's how I read ribasushi's words, I am not passing judgement on you.
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Altreus I have to wonder why it is if he has disdain for both Perl6 and p5p he doesn't go and use Rust or something 11:19
I hear PHP7 is out :P 11:20
El_Che woolfy: and again, I am not angry at you. I hope the sentiment on the other direction will fade with time.
tadzik Altreus: they say you can't say you truly know something unless you hate some parts of it :P
El_Che Altreus: ribasushi and rurban are known for their feelings towards p5p :)
masak oh, look -- people are angry again about naming and *checks notes* aliasing. 11:21
I should release a module that transforms naming anger into actual useful code.
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: I am not angry at you, I am angry at the whole thing and sad and frustrated and seeing all that money and time and effort and energy going to the garbage bin... You are one of the people who my anger is reaching... (pfff my English is not sufficient here)
El_Che woolfy: "glad" to hear that. And I get the argument about money and effort spent by you and liz. We all love you for that 11:22
masak sorry for not engaging more in the naming anger thing. I'm very turned off by it. I will no go do something useful.
El_Che Thing is, that we have a huge problem and we're having this conversation every 6 months. And whatever we do or don't do, we're stuck in the same loop again. 11:23
woolfy Altreus : I know ribasushi pretty well, personally, and I have asked him that question repeatedly: if you so much hate / disdain Perl 5 and Perl 6 (ok, P5P and Rakudo), why are you still working with it. Basically, because he is very good at programming, and programming Perl 5 especially.
El_Che sounds like a SF trope
tadzik masak: oh oh, I know that module!
Altreus he's typecast, like Jim Carrey 11:24
tadzik masak: I think it's called IRC::Command::Part or something like that :P
I think more people should use it to now when not to 11:25
woolfy Altreus : ribasushi is very intelligent, and a good programmer, but diplomacy is not his strongest quality (neither is mine, I admit).
Kaiepi it depends on the type of programmer i work with 11:32
i've worked with one in the past that passive aggressively and publicly shamed anyone who dared create a bug 11:33
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Kaiepi you guys are great though 11:33
Altreus you have to say that ;)
or we'll publicly shame you :D 11:34
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Kaiepi lol 11:35
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andrewshitov OK I see it I have to come in. Although I will not discuss any Perl 6 development-related stuff here 11:43
first of all
tadzik thanks for coming
Skarsnik Times -- gccxml: 0.37396727 sec; xml parsing: 3.81911616 sec; magic: 0.3714612 Hoo the XML use to take 20+ sec on my old computer/rakudo 11:44
CIAvash Opened an issue for discussing the details of aliasing: github.com/perl6/user-experience/issues/31
andrewshitov TimToady: Raku may mean something in Japanese, but in Russian it sounds very close to three things: cancer, anus and doggy-style. Not exactly, but I heard all of these in the last few days after alias announcement
Now about the conference, mainly the opinions of El_Che 11:45
Skarsnik xD
Actually why not a name like the release name?
tadzik :D
Skarsnik Diwandi? 11:46
andrewshitov El_Che: you are repeating three things: tantrum, killed the conference, and I have no right to do that
El_Che andrewshitov: the first 2 actually. You have the right to do the third. As you did in my eyes.
andrewshitov El_Che: you should know that YAPC::Europe could have stop existing (or at least have a year-long gap) in 2013. If you are not familiar to how it happens, here it is: the YAPC Europe venue committee calls for the venue a few months before the current conference. A few groups of Perl monguers submit their proposals. The committee selects the best option and announces the city. 11:47
El_Che andrewshitov: I know how you saved it in a few occasions. That's not the part I critique 11:48
andrewshitov El_Che: In 2012, there were no proposals received by the Venue committee for hosting a conference in 2013
El_Che andrewshitov: I also know about the books and other stuff. Again, not that
andrewshitov El_Che: The same story repeated in 2018
El_Che Only the part "undo the alias or else" 11:49
I would have get the "else" part
the "screw you guys, I am going home" reference
not the demand to undo something otherwise no conf 11:50
so let's get that part straight
andrewshitov El_Che: Let me continue. Regardless who is organising the conference in the end, they are doing it on their own risk. The YEF foundation can give maximum 1000 € as a kick-start donation (from the money which more or less come from the previous organisers).
El_Che: Once agian, a group hosting the conference does not receive any financial support from the YEF or TPF or whatever except the above small amount. 11:51
El_Che: I do not work for YEF or either official Perl organisation. I do not receive grants from there, I do not receive any salary from there.
El_Che: I am in conference organising because of I love Perl (both 5 and 6) and I find it important to continue the conference despite all the difficulties. 11:52
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AlexDaniel :D :D 11:52
andrewshitov El_Che: I would say you even more, the YEF organisation is thinking of closing itself, and by the way, I did not ask any kickstart donations from them this year. 11:53
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El_Che andrewshitov: the language wasn't renamed during your preparation. Only an alias was created that you were completely free to ignore. Being pissed about it is OK, but it wouldn't have impacted the conf 11:54
andrewshitov El_Che: Instead of shouting "tantrum", you would have asked if I need any help etc. I want you to know that there was a SINGLE person to offer real money after the Raku announce. And not because he was fond of the alias but because he wanted to keep the conference.
El_Che: Wait, I will be there.
El_Che (and let's be honest, is the same 200 people that will attend even if you renamed Perl 5 to Banana)
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El_Che ok 11:55
Juerd andrewshitov: Has any sponsor withdrawn because of the alias announcement?
andrewshitov El_Che: The conference budget of a YAPC::Europe size is 60 to 80 k euro. When I agreed to host 2019, I also agreed to myself that I could loose up to 20 K, which I take a risk. 20 K allows us to have a venue and mostly that's it. 11:57
Juerd: 0 of 1
Juerd andrewshitov: I don't really understand how it's a financial risk then, if the single sponsor is still with the event. Maybe you expect visitors to drop out? 11:58
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andrewshitov El_Che: I do not want to limit the conference to the same 200 people as you say. First of all, I am aiming at 300+ and I do not want that only old friends come again. I want new people too. 11:59
El_Che: As you may noticed, we announced the conference with an idea that we want to have other languages welcome.
El_Che andrewshitov: seeing you calmfully explaining your reasoning, I will not use the word tantrum any longer in the discussion. However, how good the reasons you have to pull the plug, the communication (the "or else" part) was received at face value by people that don't know you well (like me) and come over as unprofessional ("will be a conference after I book my plane tickets?").
andrewshitov El_Che: btw, "we" is not "I". There are two people working on the conference preparation. Me and my friend, who is not a Perl developer (and not any other developer). 12:00
El_Che andrewshitov: there is a difference between you talking as you or the conf demanding the removal of the alias. 12:02
So in short, I understand the stress and the financial risk you take, and appreciate it enormly (although it may not looks like it)
andrewshitov El_Che: We spent some time talking to people in Rīga to find the best prices etc. Also, we made lots of calculations to understand what should be ticket price taking into account that all these options. I have planned a few more visits to the city, which costs money if you agree.
El_Che but as a organisation, I expect the communication to be above that
otherwise you'll get the exact result... we've got 12:03
andrewshitov El_Che: I am working on the conference because I love Perl. Other languages are welcome. Raku is not. That is my preference, indeed.
El_Che That's the thing. Raku is not a different language, just an alias that may or may not stick
You're in no obligation whatsover to add it the conf site of materials 12:04
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El_Che on the same logic, you can not force an unaliasing as a conference 12:04
you can campaign against it as yourself, of course 12:05
as lizmat and woolfy do
andrewshitov El_Che: Juerd: but that preference is not only my opinion. After the announce, none of the already-agreed sponsors asked for a refund, but that's because there was only one sponsor who actually transferred money. Together with that, I heard another voice from the potential sponsor that they are thinking not to invest in Perl because Perl is about to be renamed. I have strong believe that that may become a thing among more sponsors.
El_Che: I am doing a Perl conference, but I have no obligations to do anything for another language. If the author (or whoever works on his behalf) of Perl decides to rename it, I am no longer it. I do not see anything wrong here. I agreed to host a Perl conference, Perl become Raku, sorry. 12:06
tadzik andrewshitov: you bring up an important point, both with your opinion and that potential sponsor you mention: the aliasing was poorly communicated and a lot of people assumed that it is/will be a rename
El_Che andrewshitov: it's remarkable how we're talking about renaming and not aliasing 12:07
andrewshitov tadzik: indeed I am coming to this.
tadzik andrewshitov: so your (plural) intention here was to back off from supporting Raku/Perl6, not Perl altogether? (sorry for asking in the middle of your statement)
El_Che also remarkable is how people that fervently oppose a real renaming and people that fervently favour a renaming (mostly Perl 5 people) see the alias a renaming.
Juerd andrewshitov: I don't share that expectation, and it doesn't consider that there may be sponsors who will want to jump in because of the new developments. 12:08
tadzik El_Che: like woolfy said, it's not hard to see the alias as a symptom of a plan for renaming
andrewshitov El_Che: you say I killed the conference but that's wrong. I put the preparations on pause. If you follow the conference Facebook page or Twitter account (you do), you may have read there who many was already done for the conference to happen. In the reality when we have an unclear alias introduction, I do not want to spend more time each week.
El_Che tadzik: that I can see, but that's evaluating intention not today's reality
andrewshitov El_Che: I do not want to move things on until it is clear for everyone what those "stage name" and "alias" terms actually mean. 12:09
El_Che andrewshitov: by killed I meant that you paused the preparation until something is withdrawn you (or me) are in no position to demand
tadzik andrewshitov: full agreement on that. However, I think that announcing a pause in preparations is exactly what "moving things" is
El_Che so, pause until a impossible request is complied sound like forever paused to me 12:10
andrewshitov El_Che: I strongly agree that the manner in which Raku was introduced resembles a coup d'etat or how do you spell it. 12:11
El_Che andrewshitov: I would have been *perfectly* ok with: "We at @percon find the alias situation confusing at the moment and will use the official Perl 6 name in the coference". 12:12
andrewshitov El_Che: It was briefly announced, and the next day appeared in a press release. BTW I wonder if anyone have seen it before it was published. Later, the questions on SO were retagged overnight. As we saw later, SO retagging was not an intention to replace the perl6 tag
El_Che It's a clear statement that does not result in uncertainity
andrewshitov El_Che: So you "killing" is my "wait until it is clear if Perl stays Perl". That's all.
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El_Che Ok: are you OK if we remove the "killing" as the "threat" tweets? 12:13
andrewshitov El_Che: Yes, I am not going to support Raku rename personally. But that is not the main motive to pause conference preparation. Again, it is paused because this is unclear where Perl is moving.
El_Che We pretty believe what we wrote, but it can de-escalate things a little 12:14
andrewshitov: I won't cite you, but your message was very straightfwd
andrewshitov El_Che: And btw, noone suggested to host a conference in 2019 after Rīga preparations was paused.
El_Che pause until unaliased
andrewshitov: I get that part and I remember the search after no candidates where found 12:16
andrewshitov El_Che: Also, I think you mentioned that it breaks your travel/vacation plans. Unfortunately, the majority of the attendees buy a ticket (conference/flight/hotel) not earlier than 3-4 months before the conference. I would say you that even Gloria asked me not to buy a ticket that early (I wanted to expense it in 2018) because of possible flight change or smth. So although I agree with your concern of long vacation planning, other
tadzik andrewshitov: thank you for clearing this up, I think I understand your worries now, having misunderstood them from the tweets themselves
andrewshitov tadzik: twits are as short as alias announcement :D 12:17
tadzik andrewshitov: :D Fair point :)
andrewshitov El_Che: another important thing about the alias. It meant to be a used if you like it. I don't. I am not going to use it in conference materials. Do you agree that I have the right to do so? 12:18
El_Che andrewshitov: I removed the "killed" tweets. You do as you think you should do, but I suggest removing twitter.com/perlcon/status/1059193997430849536 and certainly this one twitter.com/perlcon/status/1059353130129874944. It's up to you.
andrewshitov El_Che: If I am not using the Raku name, but if I agree that many people will use and like it, how am I going to attract those people outside of those 200 you mention?
tadzik andrewshitov: and being a twitter critic of the @perlcon announcement, while I do agree with your analysis here (from the outside, it _does_ seem a bit like a coup), I think a twitter annoucement of this magnitude is a similar mistake to what the aliasing annoucement was 12:19
El_Che andrewshitov: yes, that's the core idea of the alias. Use it if you want you.
andrewshitov El_Che: For removing, you'd better ask Steve Mayott :D
tadzik andrewshitov: like you saw, a lot of people assumed that the conference is now dead and buried, a conclusion to which I partially jumped myself
andrewshitov El_Che: I think the whole alias thing is not very well thought out. To work properly, Raku either have to be a separate project (then I will accept it), or a parallel world has to be created. I know that Perl 6 is good at parallelism and concurrency, but I doubt anyone is about to duplicate all perl6-related stuff to have a separate world for Raku-lovers. 12:20
tadzik :P 12:21
El_Che andrewshitov: you'll find in the backlog the 3 scenarios I meantioned. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
andrewshitov El_Che: So the bottom like: I don't like the idea of an alias and am not going to use it. The conference is not cancelled (neither it is paused. The preparations are paused), but I want to know if Perl stays Perl and thus the PerlCon is a valid name. 12:23
El_Che andrewshitov: personally I would have love to rename the lot to Rakudo (there is 1 implementation, we worry about the rest later). That would have pissed off a lot of people as well :)
andrewshitov: I can reassure you that an alias does not change the language, is not a rename and does not fork the runtime. 12:24
andrewshitov El_Che: BTW, I came up with the new conference name, which was independently suggested in the venue list. Many people wanted to get rid of "YAPC" as many did not understand the meaning (nor pronunciation), and de-facto it was not a "yet another confernece" anymore. So we call it PerlCon (we = venue committee), and now it's not a Perl :)
El_Che andrewshitov: all the other fears are hypotheticals about future evolutions, not something anyone can confirm today or in the near future 12:25
andrewshitov El_Che: regarding reassuring, that's your personal opinion, but we've seen how nasty Zoffix introduced it, so fears of it continues are grounded 12:26
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El_Che with Perl 6 staying the offcial name, PerlCon is fine for the time being (it would even be ok after a rename, it would be still a Perl family lang) 12:26
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El_Che andrewshitov: Like I said, I would *like* a rename, although not a sneaky one. But I don't see that happening here and certainly not in the timeframe of the conference. 12:27
I wouldn't fear about name changes before the conf, as PerlConf is the perfect place to announce the renaming :) 12:30
El_Che ducks
andrewshitov El_Che: So are you coming?
El_Che I am thinking about it, looking how this evoluates 12:31
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marcusr andrewshitov: I'm planning to come too, hope there will still be a conference. 12:35
But otherwise Jurmala is nice in august too.
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El_Che I need to go back to work, haven written more irc than code today :) 12:41
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lucasb o/ /me arrived for the party 12:44
masak lucasb: welcome! 12:46
lucasb: over here in #perl6, we've decided to re-enact the famous "what's in a name" monologue from "Romeo and Juliet"
tadzik :) 12:47
masak anything that matters, such as writing code or outreach, has been put on hold for the moment for this important discussion
eiro :) 12:48
hello everyone
masak I missed andrewshitov; otherwise I would have lauded him for his "Raku means doggy-style" contribution 12:49
it's a good thing we didn't have any brand capital to speak of when we started quibbling over naming :P 12:50
tadzik eiro: o/ 12:52
masak heiro! \o
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lizmat has blogged: liztormato.wordpress.com/2018/11/06/on-raku/ 13:08
one can leave comments here: www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/9u...ramblings/
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lizmat mst El_Che ^^^ 13:09
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masak lizmat++ # well written 13:13
to be honest, I've missed the past few days/weeks of naming discussion activity 13:14
and catching up with it today, I'm already so, *so* sick of it
so I can understand if it hits lizmat and woolfy badly :/ 13:15
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woolfy masak: I am sick of it for days. I am furious. Still. Can you imagine being so angry for days, that is hard to swallow, hard to just have a good moment, a good night sleep? 13:16
masak woolfy: I probably can't imagine exactly, but it sounds rather unpleasant :( 13:17
CIAvash Opened an issue about our official channels: github.com/perl6/user-experience/issues/32
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masak woolfy: I know for a fact that there are still a lot of good people out there, on all sides. it's easy to forget that in the heat of discussion, when (by definition) only loud people take up space. 13:19
woolfy masak : I am loud. I just wanted to be loud. I am not sorry for being loud and obnoxious. Not this time. 13:20
masak I didn't specifically mean you, or anyone really :) 13:21
woolfy I know.
masak just know that not everyone's voice might be represented right now, and there might be silent majorities and stuff 13:22
woolfy I just said it before anybody else would say it.
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uzl hello #perl6! 13:23
Kaiepi CIAvash, i unironically thought zoffix was larry wall when i first joined 13:24
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Kaiepi but i think it'd be a good idea to have a perl 6 blog or twitter of some sor 13:25
s/sor/\0t/
timotimo you mean like the perl6org twitter account? 13:26
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lucasb blog.perl6.org and wiki.perl6.org 13:27
blog.perl6.org would be the home of weekly and advent calendar from now on 13:28
Kaiepi ...lol, forgot i already followed perl6org on twitter
that's good
CIAvash :)
lucasb the weekly should be a markdown document in some repo, edited by the community. then, at the end of the week, just publish it 13:29
Juerd lucasb: I'm quite fond of the curated weekly
patrickas Hey I just read Liz' post and want to apologize to her and those who were upset by my adding a tag on Stackoverflow... I thought I was solving the problem ash mentioned on facebook but I ended up hurting people more. I should have been more tactful about it. Sorry again.
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lucasb anyway, just random suggestions :) I think having a blog.perl6.org would give a more central place to look for perl6 posts 13:31
Juerd The way the weekly is written, results in a nicely consistent document and a single "voice" or style.
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lucasb you mean curated by a single person? 13:31
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lucasb Ok, I agree, lizmat++ has done an awesome job with it 13:31
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lucasb before that, I belive was timotimo++ who run it, right? :) 13:32
timotimo aye
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lizmat yes, and Zoffix++ has taken the honours once or twice as well 13:32
Juerd They're great posts because there's not much fluff. It's all straight forward and incredibly readable. I fear that community edited posts would get long winded and an overview of everyone's 2 cents. 13:33
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masak yeah, "community editing" simply does not work in practice 13:33
and on that note, I hope everyone appreciates how much work lizmat++ pours into the weekly every week
Juerd It's unfair that the burden to write them falls on a single person, but I hope she usually enjoys doing it :) 13:34
lizmat: Do you, usually, like writing them? :)
lucasb for example: this-week-in-rust.org/blog/2018/10...-rust-258/
^^ I think they run this blog in a community fashion
github.com/cmr/this-week-in-rust/t...er/content
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Juerd lucasb: It looks a lot better than I assumed. 13:35
El_Che lizmat: I gave a short reaction on reddit
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El_Che lizmat: there is an error on the first facebook link. You link to DrForr's post 13:35
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woolfy Juerd: lizmat and I are preparing to travel to Amsterdam, packin stuff, and such, for the Amsterdam Perl Mongers meeting, where Shitov is going to give an awesome presentation ( www.facebook.com/groups/perl6/perm...435229370/ ). 13:38
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woolfy Juerd: but indeed, lizmat enjoys writing it, and being busy so many hours doing this. And I enjoy helping her, finding more stuff to be included, and later, proofreading it and publishing it on Facebook Perl6. 13:39
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Juerd Glad you like doing it, because I like reading it :) 13:42
Have fun at the pm :)
tadzik oh wow, that presentation sounds awesome :)
lizmat Juerd: yes, I like doing it... but it is getting to be a bit of a burden
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tadzik I wish I could be there 13:42
leont Oh right, pm today. I might come, not sure yet 13:43
Kaiepi i like seeing perl 6 content on twitter
masak it does indeed sounds like a very nice presentation :)
leont I discovered last night flatmap is deprecated in 6.d. That is a bit of a disappointment.
timotimo i like seeing perl 6 content on mastodon :)
leont: .map.flat is just one character more 13:44
leont I mean, it's the map that actually does what map does in perl5, quit frankly I use it quite often
masak timotimo: wow, that's the reason? might be the first time I see something deprecated in Perl 6 because there's an alternative, already built-in way to do it
timotimo i don't think that's actually the reason
masak didn't think so :)
timotimo perhaps it was deemed a waste 13:45
masak if it were, then .chars would be hanging loose ;)
leont The ticket was rt.perl.org//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=130520
timotimo and not making sure what exactly gets flattened
masak er, I mean .ords
timotimo i.e. it could be flat.map or .map.flat
or it could be a deeply recursively flattening version of map 13:46
leont "it does the thing the other perl's map does"
timotimo we don't target exclusively perl programmers
leont True. But I would argue it's the perlish map 13:47
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Juerd What does "the perlish" mean, in a timtowtdi landscape? 13:48
timotimo but that's just because perl doesn't have nested arrays
FSVO "doesn't have" 13:49
leont It has nested arrays, it doesn't have nested lists ;-)
tadzik what about .5map()? /me hides
timotimo i don't think we allow method names starting with numbers unless you quote
leont Also, I'm rather worried how a feature got deprecated in a discussion involving only 4 people. 13:50
That sort of thing really ought to involve a bigger segment of the community
timotimo i was fine with that without saying so explicitly
also there's more people in the github issue linked to at the end 13:51
SmokeMachine lizmat: I agree with you with almost everything you sad on your blog post. I only disagree with having 2 different rakudo. And I think that Zoffix cannot be blamed of being proactive, he just though something different from you (probably the same I was thinking before reading your post. Myself, I changed half of perl6 mentions, on Red GitHub page, to Raku) (forgiveness > permission) 13:52
jmerelo SmokeMachine: where's that blog post?
lizmat has blogged: liztormato.wordpress.com/2018/11/06/on-raku/
jmerelo lizmat++ 13:54
lizmat is going to step away from the keyboard for some rest and travel to Amsterdam 13:55
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masak enjoy hampsterdan^W Amsterdam! 13:58
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tadzik lizmat++ # post 14:06
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CIAvash is getting tired of the community 14:07
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harrison m: my $a = 'foo-01.txt'; say $a++ for ^5; 14:09
camelia foo-01.txt
foo-02.txt
foo-03.txt
foo-04.txt
foo-05.txt
harrison m: my $a = 'foo-01-bar.txt'; say $a++ for ^5;
camelia foo-01-bar.txt
foo-01-bas.txt
foo-01-bat.txt
foo-01-bau.txt
foo-01-bav.txt
harrison m: my $a = 'foo-01'; say $a++ for ^5; 14:10
camelia foo-01
foo-02
foo-03
foo-04
foo-05
Altreus on raku! on daku! on dancer! on vixen! 14:11
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CIAvash the niceness of community: "close the issue", "If you're bikeshedding ... talk about it on 14:13
irc."
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Kaiepi FUCK 14:28
i can't install perl6 anymore since upgrading to openbsd 6.4 because of a libuv bug
timotimo aw crap 14:29
El_Che good catch, though
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Telemacus Hey, how long does Larry Wall vacation lasts? 14:57
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CIAvash Actually the more I think about it, the worse it bocomes, people are talking like that in the user-exprience repo. So if I was new, my experience would be even more awful, opening a simple issue and people jumping at you, and in "user-experience" out of all places 15:03
tadzik CIAvash: what exactly are you refering to? 15:04
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CIAvash tadzik: github.com/perl6/user-experience/issues/32 15:05
tobs` m: sub f (--> Callable:(Int --> Bool)) { -> { so $^x } } 15:07
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Malformed return value (return constraints only allowed at the end of the signature)
at <tmp>:1
------> 3sub f (--> Callable7⏏5:(Int --> Bool)) { -> { so $^x } }
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tobs` How do I constrain a return Callable correctly? 15:07
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tobs` I don't think I can write it closer to the end of the signature 15:08
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mst twitter.com/shadowcat_mst/status/1...2406813696 # thoughts on the current situation 15:10
yoleaux 5 Nov 2018 21:16Z <brrt> mst: that 'raku' perl 6 on MoarVM does have the ability to fork() ;-)
mst brrt: I was attempting a mirror of liz' "end perl5 feature development to port to MoarVM" suggestion to make a point I would find both equally silly ... but nicely done wrt fork() :D 15:11
Geth rakudo.org: 242dc8f344 | (Jeremy Studer)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | templates/home.html.ep
Make torii image more responsive

Apply Bootstrap's 'img-fluid' class to the torii image on the homepage to make it more responsive and display better on certain mobile devices.		 15:12
rakudo.org: 1c1a452012 | (Jeremy Studer)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | templates/home.html.ep
Merge pull request #23 from jstuder-gh/torii_img_fluid

Make torii image more responsive
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marcusr how come the homebrew rakudo star is so far behind? (06 seems to be the latest at github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/...o-star.rb) 15:13
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El_Che marcusr: by design. 15:14
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marcusr el_che: Does that mean 2018-06 is more stable than the others? 15:15
El_Che marcusr: It's not following the monthly release cycle, but releases every 3 month most of the time
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El_Che marcusr: not in my view 15:15
marcusr: I follow the monthly cycle
that sounds bad :)
marcusr: star is compiler + modules. I think it takes time to get it all together 15:16
marcusr el_che: Right, which is why I liked getting a binary release instead of building it myself :)
El_Che marcusr: would a monthly macos release be useful to you? I am been thinking about it, but haven't decided yet
marcusr el_che: Well, I got a super weird error when trying to read the documentation for Inline::Perl5, and I was just wondering if that was because I'm behind 15:17
pyrimidine mst++ # re: tweet
El_Che one of the reasons I follow monthly (I release Linux packages) is because newer release tend to fix breaking bugs in the ecosystem and are always faster
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pyrimidine and lizmat++ # on blog post 15:18
El_Che marcusr: macos is not my main os, but I have a macbook air at work to test stuff
marcusr: start 2018.10 should be released soon through
marcusr: but you need to check with stmuk for details 15:19
benjikun pyrimidine: What do you agree with from that blog post?
mst marcusr: I've not played recently but I definitely got it all working when I was doing my toolchain dive, and zoffix had a mojo lite app running aaages back
benjikun: blog post? I tweeted and linked a reddit comment. 15:20
benjikun huh?
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benjikun I'm talking about this liztormato.wordpress.com/2018/11/06/on-raku/ 15:20
tobs` oops, gotta go. If anyone knows the answer to my question, I'll find it in logs later o/ 15:21
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mst ah, I saw the first ++ but not the second, sorry 15:23
pyrimidine benjikun: I think it's a well-thought out post. Not that I completely agree with it
benjikun I see
mst I would be happier without the "to me, that ship sailed when we shipped" since in the years before perl6 shipped liz was also calling renaming impossible 15:24
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mst so it's a bit of a recton 15:24
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mst retcon even 15:24
El_Che I start to dislike "the ship has sailed" metaphore 15:25
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El_Che it sounds to me as "I don't really need arguments for this" 15:25
benjikun I don't really think using the name raku for perl6 divides the perl community in any capacity
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El_Che if a ship has sailed is the one with Perl's popularity 15:26
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El_Che and the status quo means the ship is every year further away 15:26
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El_Che do you guys remember the days when Perl was a top 10 language? 15:27
benjikun was that pre 2000s?
El_Che today even fucking MATLAB and Assembly are more popular
benjikun if so, I wasn't alive heh ;)
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El_Che and we are having civil war about an alias 15:27
we suck at a lot more than marketing
benjikun: according to TIOBE we were 8 in 2013 15:28
benjikun oh wow, didn't expect that
El_Che take tiobe with a grain of salt, but still: 15:29
www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
benjikun to be fair to matlab, most alternatives suck (e.g. octave)
El_Che benjikun: it is a very nich langauge
not a all-around one like perl
benjikun Ye
El_Che same with assembly
holyghost I'm going to do my gest to cope wit matlab and mathematica 15:30
El_Che It seems Ruby is in the same boat
benjikun I'm attempting to completely avoid mathematica
holyghost s/gest/best 15:31
El_Che oh, and "Perl" is Perl 5 and 6 on tiobe
benjikun I sometimes use Maxima as a CAS when I need one
Altreus so what was life like when perl5 replaced perl4? 15:32
leont Being king of the hill isn't healthy either
El_Che leont: tell that to van Rossum :)
leont We were king around 2000, later is was php, then ruby, now javascript/node
El_Che leont: the problem in not not being a major language anymore, the problem is the ever declining popularity 15:33
mst yeah, being king of the hill results in the hordes of barbarians who make a mess
El_Che leont: python seems to be the kind
g
leont Python never was king, that's their strengh
El_Che mst: funny, when you said barbarian I thought of you and braveheart :)
mst El_Che: trout.me.uk/facepalm2.jpg 15:34
leont They were never a hype, they just slowly conquered the countryside without hyping
El_Che leont: much like Trump? :)
benjikun Yeah python has had a pretty steady growth
Perl has had a steady decline, sadly
leont Everything that got hyped got poisoned with by what mst just called barbarians. 15:37
Programmers in the wrong Donning-Kruger quadrant tend to flock to the most popular languages.
El_Che leont: that is not our problem anymore :)
leont Perl from around 2000 wasn't so good on average, php got that flock with well known result. Ruby got it later and apparently now "Ruby is dead" (it isn't of course). 15:38
pmurias El_Che: do you seriously think it's about the alias not a gradual rename?
leont And I don't even want to think too long about what's happening in node
El_Che pmurias: yes, as people that hate it can still use Perl 6
benjikun PHP is a monstrosity that was in the right place at the right time 15:39
mst pmurias: I think it's about letting it shake out, I'd rather like "raku perl" to end up being what most people call it
El_Che pmurias: after a while the renaming discussion will come back again
and again
mst pmurias: but waiting for language to evolve how it's going to evolve is a better approach than trying to enforce it top down
El_Che because an alias does not fix the problem of Perl 5 people while reducing Perl 6's image to 1998's Perl
mst even if, inevitably, the people who think they're going to lose see it as it being enforced top down 15:40
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pmurias mst: sure if the alias is a sucess let it win 15:45
mst I would've been happy with 'rakudo perl, an implementation of the camelia perl spec' personally 15:46
leont Being a hype means you only can go down. The question for perl5 is how to you go down without losing vitality. And for perl 6 it's how to go up in a sustainable way. 15:47
pmurias mst: not try to push inside "official" places before that by annoying everyone with backhanded tactics
marcusr I get the same p6doc error in docker as well, but also realized the latest docker container is also 2018.06
mst y'know, from outside of perl6, the way it was added to the perl6.org docs got commented on by a lot of people as being a very mature, low drama way of introducing the world to it without making a big deal out of it 15:48
and given this has been in discussion for *ages* the whole 'sneak attack' narrative seems very strange to me 15:49
marcusr same
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marcusr hmm, I see that Inline::Perl5 hasn't been changed since august, so I guess p6doc is just broken for it. 15:50
pmurias mst: with an explicit note to a moderate mention now and come back 3-6 months later with a lot more 15:55
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mst all I'm saying is the view from outside currently has you looking pretty good about the whole thing 15:56
Zoffix pmurias: which note was that?
mst be a shame to spoil that appearance
pmurias looks
Zoffix pmurias: the messaging has consistently been that Group A says "new name is beneficial" and Group B says "Perl 6 name is beneficial" and if we create the alias the two groups can use both names and if the claims of Group A are true, we'll see them 15:57
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pmurias Zoffix: what's wrong with lizmat 15:58
's proposal
?
Zoffix pmurias: and I don't remember the wording of what I said on leaving it for 3-8 months, but my point was is we let the users and 3rd party outlets use the alias to ****judge how successful it is**** and organically see how much it should be used in official channels instead of trying to inorganically force its use into everything. 15:59
El_Che pmurias: it would kill what's left
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mst pmurias: hilariously divisive and terrible and also completely wrecks the possibility to use 'raku perl' to be inclusive like one can currently say 'racket scheme' 15:59
El_Che Does it solve Perl 5's problem staying forever in minor version limbo? No 16:00
Does it solve Perl6 problem having to deal with Perl 5's reputation? No
Does it solve *anything* at all? <-- serieus question 16:01
serious
serieus is dutch :)
pmurias El_Che: does any proposal solve the Perl 5's problem?
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El_Che pmurias: yes, mst's is a okayish compromise 16:02
Zoffix pmurias: two primary things: the argumentation that Perl 6 > Perl 5, which makes Perl 5 community our enemies and makes us do more effort to promote our language, since we have to counteract the "Perl 6 is a failure/dead" coming from upset Perl 5 users. And the second one that I care more about is that the plan going forward is to do nothing really (woolfy's talk said write blogs etc, but that's a given and
ammounts to "nothing") other than to continuously correct people who talk shit about Perl.
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mst El_Che: if we can get as far as "${name} perl" for perl5 as well we can just declare the 28/30/etc. to be the major version of "${name} perl" and escape the trap without any need for more stupid-ass shitting on perl6 from our camp 16:02
El_Che pmurias: in my view the solution would be leaving Perl to Perl 5 and rename Perl 6 so it can stand on its own merits. But that's not happening, so mst's idea is not bad
Zoffix pmurias: and my counterargument to that second part is we've already been doing it since Christmas 2015 and IMO it's not working. So saying just keep doing it and one day it'll probably work is insufficient for me as a resolution. 16:03
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pmurias Zoffix: the Perl 6 > Perl 5 part sucks 16:03
El_Che pmurias: that's the reason why I appreciate mst's and Zoffix's efforts. It's *far* from perfect, but I starts from a real problem. 16:04
mst that's why I like the idea of reframing it as "the sixth perl larry designed" versus "the fifth perl larry designed"
Zoffix But more importantly, IMO woolfy/lizmat's plan is not annulled by the alias plan: they can continue to use "Perl 6" and improve Perl's image and it will benefit both us and the Perl 5 folks.
El_Che pmurias: it is a given both will piss off many people, but every single action will by now, including doing nothing at all
mst: I would not use version numbers in the narrative, though :) 16:05
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mst El_Che: no. but using that description to explain the *origin* I think works 16:06
El_Che somewhere small on page 78
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pmurias Zoffix: waiting to see if Raku pick ups before using it in official channels would work too 16:07
El_Che P5 loss of popularity and reputation will not be fixed by the liberation of a major version number (so it can go to 7 or 30 or whatver), but it will not be the reason for anonimosity between both sub communities
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Zoffix pmurias: I'm +1 on that. I know I've included "Raku Perl 6" on release brochure, but as I mentioned it earlier, I felt that was required because of the 1.5yr plan to finalize the decision on whether we'll have the alias and not having it in there would leave that question unanswered. I also added "Raku" to the Glossary. I think that's more than sufficient for right now. 16:09
Ideally, TimToady would write a detailed blog post describing the appropriate uses of the alias.
El_Che TimToady: I hope you're not reading this and we are not spoiling your vacation 16:10
Zoffix TimToady is omniscient. He reads everything the second it happens.
El_Che from far we must look like children screaming "wait until dad come home, you'll see!"
Zoffix: that's why he needs a vacation, probably 16:11
:)
Zoffix :)
mst pmurias: getting the name somewhere people can see it is necessary to start trying to use it
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benjikun Yeah, further clarification would be nice to know on his opinion 16:22
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mst medium.com/@virtuallysue/larry-wal...0ccf6f649c is a tad on the cranky side but I think has good points 16:31
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benjikun I agree, mst 16:45
Geth doc: 8ae1d3ad3d | (Fernando Santagata)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/pod.pod6
Use of double angle bracket was not documented.
 16:48
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/pod
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CIAvash .tell woolfy thinking back, "pretending" was a strong word, sorry for using it. 16:51
yoleaux CIAvash: I'll pass your message to woolfy.
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nine Should I backlog the name discussion of the last 2 hours or try to fix the uninitialized value in the bytecode issue? 16:53
moritz nine: the latter :) 16:54
nine Darn....I hoped to find a good excuse :) 16:55
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leont What does «%*ENV values are allomorphic» mean? 17:10
timotimo allomorphs are things like IntStr 17:11
m: say <1000e1>.perl
camelia NumStr.new(10000e0, "1000e1")
timotimo m: say <1000e5>.perl
camelia NumStr.new(100000000e0, "1000e5")
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timotimo as you can see it remembers its original string representation 17:12
m: say <0b100101001>.perl
camelia IntStr.new(297, "0b100101001")
timotimo since the environment variables api isn't typed, we mustn't destroy the original string data by parsing them as an int, for example
leont Ah. Yeah that's useful, but not clear at all
timotimo docs.perl6.org/language/glossary#i...-Allomorph 17:13
a quick search in the docs clears it up, fortunately
maybe some terms in that brochure should be hyperlinks to the glossary?
leont Yeah, that would help a lot 17:14
timotimo i'd expect the right issue tracker for that to be the marketing repo under the perl6 org
i'm afk for a bit
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Juerd Regarding "the ship has sailed", that's the sunk cost fallacy. It only became harder. 17:23
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tobs m: subset MyMap of Callable where .signature ~~ :(Int --> Bool); sub f (--> MyMap) { -> { so $^x } } 17:42
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Placeholder variable '$^x' cannot override existing signature
at <tmp>:1
------> 3~~ :(Int --> Bool); sub f (--> MyMap) { 7⏏5-> { so $^x } }
tobs m: subset MyMap of Callable where .signature ~~ :(Int --> Bool); sub f (--> MyMap) { -> $_ { .so } }
camelia ( no output )
tobs aha!
SmokeMachine m: subset MyMap of Callable where .signature ~~ :(Int --> Bool); sub f (--> MyMap) { { so $^x } }
camelia ( no output )
SmokeMachine m: subset MyMap of Callable where .signature ~~ :(Int --> Bool); sub f (--> MyMap) { { 42 } } 17:43
camelia ( no output )
moritz note that here, -> $_ { .so } doesn't actually have a signature (Int --> Bool)
it has a signature (Mu --> Mu), afaict
m: say (-> $_ {.so }).signature.perl 17:44
camelia :($_)
SmokeMachine m: subset MyMap of Callable[Bool]; sub f (--> MyMap) { { 42 } } 17:46
camelia ( no output )
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tobs hmm, I guess it was naïve to expect such a check to work because I kind of demand a static check of the return value of that callable 17:54
I guess I'll go without any type constraints
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buggable New CPAN upload: JSON-Path-1.3.tar.gz by JNTHN modules.perl6.org/dist/JSON::Path:cpan:JNTHN 18:01
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SmokeMachine m: sub f (--> Callable[Bool]) { { 42 } } 18:29
camelia ( no output )
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Woodi hi today :) 19:09
masak hi Wooday 19:10
Woodi SmokeMachine: lot's of work in Red :) just a lot of methods with ^, I thinked ^ is only for meta-language stuff... also some examples with error handling would be nice 19:12
timotimo the metaclass is also just a class, so you can derive from it and add more methods 19:13
Woodi timotimo: I mean that in Red synopis all db calls looks ^... 19:14
SmokeMachine Woodi: The intention was not adding methods on "your" class... so I added those on the metaclass... 19:15
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SmokeMachine Woodi: had you taken a look at the examples and at the wiki? 19:16
Woodi: and more important: are you liking Red?
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Woodi just github code tree 19:16
leont Honestly, that changelog is more confusing than enlightening.
Half of them leave me with questions about what changed 19:17
Woodi SmokeMachine: where is wiki ?
SmokeMachine at github...
leont Some I can figure out by looking up things, but that really shouldn't be necessary.
SmokeMachine Woodi: github.com/FCO/Red/wiki 19:18
Woodi ah, there it is...
leont «require'd symbols no longer transitively exposed» that's not helpful at all. Why can't that explain what it means? Why can't it give an example.
SmokeMachine Woodi: and the examples are: github.com/FCO/Red/tree/master/examples
xenowoolfy At the Amsterdam Perl Mongers meeting tonight. With 16 people, watching now a presentation by AndrewShitov about how to build a compiler in Perl 6. Cool. 19:19
timotimo very cool
Woodi hi xenowoolfy :)
SmokeMachine xenowoolfy: is that being recorded? 19:20
xenowoolfy SmokeMachine: no... this is just a mongers meeting, very informal...
leont «Multi-dimensional access via {…}, similar to how it works with […]» that doesn't help either 19:21
Woodi SmokeMachine: overall api usage looks "fast", few calls and all data saved in db
SmokeMachine xenowoolfy: :( I am playing with something like that (github.com/FCO/bernalang)... so wotch that could help me...
jmerelo Hi, xenowoolfy !
xenowoolfy Hallo all 19:22
SmokeMachine *watch
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xenowoolfy SmokeMachine: andrew is writing a book about it, so maybe you want that when it is finished. :-) 19:22
SmokeMachine sure I will... recently (i think) he twetted its cover... I thought that was published and started to search for it... 19:24
xenowoolfy: ^^
Woodi: that was the intent... :) 19:25
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xenowoolfy Hehe he is two-thirds finished and has the cover done too. He is a proud author, doing his fourth Perl 6 book. 19:27
SmokeMachine: you could contact him with questions, see if he can answer... 19:30
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Woodi btw. can we have phpBB replacement in Perl ? forums probably have a future or last EU law destroyed it ? 19:31
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robertle is 19:32
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SmokeMachine xenowoolfy: :) 19:33
robertle there anything specific you don't like about phpBB? rewriting for the sake of rewriting seems a bit tedious
Woodi robertle: in my opinion it is garanteed that it have serious bugs. BIND-style - always bugged 19:34
El_Che It looks like everyone started to write blogs
just saw the link of the one of virtualsue and now one from stmuk
xenowoolfy El_Che: links? 19:35
El_Che www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/9u...community/
medium.com/@virtuallysue/larry-wal...0ccf6f649c
robertle Woodi: I guess the whoel async-comms-threads idea needs a fresh look, rather than just a revamp in another language. I wouldn't know what that could be though 19:36
El_Che mst: you called virtualsue's post a little cranky? stmuk asks to hold his beer :)
Woodi robertle: but actualy my intent was to have Perl[56] app everybody installs :)
mst El_Che: I liked stmuk's, hence my comment
El_Che mst: I missed that on the backlog, I thought you meant virtaulsue's
mst El_Che: in the backlog I did. stmuk's I commented *on reddit* 19:37
El_Che ah ok, not there yet
mst robertle: I have looked at the phpBB source code.
El_Che wait, you and stmuk agreed on something?
mst robertle: all I remember is screaming, followed by waking up with half a bottle of bourbon less than I'd had before
El_Che that's a primer
Woodi robertle: rrright, we already live post-facebook :) but stil some not real-time discusion is needed 19:38
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El_Che stmuk's post made me think of this image: pbs.twimg.com/media/DrV8GIeWwAAPWLm.jpg 19:39
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robertle Woodi: I didn't mean to do something more real-time, but a different way to organize non-realtime discussions. there was a really nice post a long tima go by someone (can't remember) about visual patterns of email threads. basically it had the ping-pong pattern, the one post-100-replies and so on 19:42
I think it drove home that a tree of responses isn't actually a good way for more than a very few people to have a conversation. so perhaps it needs something completely different. posts that float in space and you can link them to other posts with edges that "support" the other post, "oppose", "add to" and so on 19:43
you could then start clustering the posts in some form, and navigate along these links 19:44
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robertle I don't know, but another BB seems so 90s! 19:44
jmerelo El_Che: wow
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jmerelo El_Che: I mean, wow, really. 19:48
xenowoolfy SmokeMachine: i just looked at your code. Looks a lot like what AndrewShitov is showing here right now.
El_Che: thanks for the links
SmokeMachine xenowoolfy: realy?! So were I in a good way?! 19:49
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El_Che jmerelo: have you been reading the backlog? The US elections are boring in comparison 19:51
xenowoolfy SmokeMachine: i am a bad coder... it just looks like what i see here at the meeting... so you are doing something into the right direction.
jmerelo El_Che: you mean this one here?
SmokeMachine xenowoolfy: :)
jmerelo I would be grateful if you pointed me at some highlights
xenowoolfy jmerelo: last 60 hours? 19:52
Plus Facebook Perl6, my angry rants.
And after that, you are no longer grateful. Sorry for ruining your mood. 19:53
jmerelo xenowoolfy: you would never ruin my mood :-)
xenowoolfy Oh yes I would... 19:54
jmerelo xenowoolfy: if you try of course. But not by pointing me to stuff to get myself informed.
I mean, lizmat's post has been very clarifying 19:55
xenowoolfy Ok
jmerelo And might I point everyone to this issue: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1847
There's been some stuff here I don't particularly like, like people deleting issues or attacking other people in issues. 19:56
Clearly, the default "being civil" CoC we assume in Perl has not been followed. We should have had a CoC to deal with this kind of things.
Plus the will to enforce it, of course. 19:57
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xenowoolfy jmerelo: looks interesting, I will have a look tomorrow. 20:11
El_Che xenowoolfy: what's with the xeno?
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stmuk_ xenowoolfy: Can you remove or edit the photograph on your Perl 6 Facebook group please? Neither me nor Sue wish to be associated with it anymore 20:11
El_Che more drama? 20:12
xenowoolfy El_Che: it is me being away from my computer. Alien me. 20:13
stmuk_: maybe a private discussion about that us more appropriate 20:14
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Xliff \o 20:28
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mikejw hi 20:38
benjikun hello
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Skarsnik Hello 20:42
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benjikun How are you? 20:45
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mikejw I'm watching the matrix 20:47
benjikun which one 20:48
mikejw original
benjikun ah
I'm ashamed to say I don't think I've seen it all at once
mikejw tsk tsk ;)
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buggable New CPAN upload: Math-FFT-Libfftw3-0.0.4.tar.gz by FRITH modules.perl6.org/dist/Math::FFT::L...cpan:FRITH 21:01
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tyil benjikun: watching them all at the same time sounds very inconvenient anyway 21:24
benjikun would take a fair bit of time
tyil no longer than the longest movie if you want them all at once 21:25
benjikun heh
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tobs SmokeMachine: this just arrived in my feed reader perl6.online/2018/11/06/creating-a...th-perl-6/ 22:17
SmokeMachine tobs: thanks! 22:19
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b2gills weekly: perl6.online/2018/11/06/creating-a...th-perl-6/ 22:23
notable6 b2gills, Noted!
tobs b2gills++ 22:27
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jdv79 it even made it to the top of hackernews. 23:24
timotimo fantastic, there was a screencast! 23:26
Xliff (timo x 2): Aside from jnthn, who else is good with NativeCall issues? 23:32
m: (1 x 2).say;
camelia 11
Xliff m: say "abcdef".reverse; 23:33
camelia (abcdef)
Xliff m: say "abcdef".comb.join('').reverse;
camelia (abcdef)
Xliff m: say "abcdef".comb.reverse.join('');
camelia fedcba
Xliff m: sub pali ($a) { $a ~ $a.comb.reverse.join('') }; say pali(0b1001010.Str) 23:34
camelia 7447
Xliff LOL!
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sjn m: say "abcdef".flip; 23:42
camelia fedcba
sjn also, calling a method with a Str-casted binary number as argument is just evil :) 23:43
timotimo you don't have to .Str it there, though? 23:48
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