»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
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guifa I decided to try my hand at some code golf for which a Bag would be quite optimal... except that it generates from a list using === to determine initial weights, not eqv or cmp, which bombs if being passed an list of arrays of numbers. Is there any way to (briefly, being golf) generate a bag using eqv/cmp? 00:06
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SmokeMachine .tell jmerelo a easy way to create html from perl6 is to use MemoizedDOM 01:58
yoleaux SmokeMachine: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.
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buggable New CPAN upload: Net-BGP-0.0.1.tar.gz by JMASLAK cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/J/JM/...0.1.tar.gz 02:57
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Xliff How can I force a function signature to indicate no return value? 03:29
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SmokeMachine m: sub bla(--> Empty) {}; bla 03:32
camelia ( no output )
SmokeMachine m: sub bla(--> Empty) { 42 }; bla
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of constant integer 42 in sink context (line 1)
SmokeMachine m: sub bla(--> Empty) { return 42 }; bla
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
No return arguments allowed when return value Empty is already specified in the signature
at <tmp>:1
------> 3sub bla(--> Empty) { return 42 7⏏5}; bla
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uzl I'm having trouble connecting to perl6.org 04:36
Anyone experiencing the same?
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AlexDaniel moritz: ↑ 04:47
I'm seeing that too
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Geth ecosystem: c798f22e1a | (Fernando Correa de Oliveira)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Adding Red to the ecosystem!!!

  \o/		 05:20
SmokeMachine Red was released!!! \o/ :D 05:21
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Zoffix uzl, it's back up. 05:29
forced reboot through hypervisor
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finanalyst Zoffix: I came on to ask about why docs.perl6.org was down, and you just fixed it. Thanks. Sort of faster than light for me :) 05:30
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Xliff SmokeMachine: Congratulations! Happy New Year! 05:32
SmokeMachine Xliff: thanks! Happy new year!!! 05:33
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SmokeMachine how long does it take to reload the ecosystem? 05:39
Xliff At least an hour 05:41
SmokeMachine: Did you manage to fix that last issue?
SmokeMachine Xliff: yes, that's fixed! :)
the last rakudo version fixed that! 05:42
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Xliff Nice! 05:46
m: sub a (--> Empty) { 42; Empty }
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of constant integer 42 in sink context (line 1)
Useless use of constant value Empty in sink context (line 1)
Xliff m: sub a (--> Empty) { $a = 42; }
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '$a' is not declared
at <tmp>:1
------> 3sub a (--> Empty) { 7⏏5$a = 42; }
Xliff m: sub a (--> Empty) { my $a = 42; } 05:47
camelia ( no output )
SmokeMachine m: sub a (--> Empty) { my $a = 42; }; say a 05:50
camelia ()
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SmokeMachine is the ecosystem working (getting new modules)? travis-ci.org/perl6/ecosystem (i don't know how it works...) 06:01
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SmokeMachine twitter.com/smokemachine/status/10...3098373121 06:13
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SmokeMachine I forget the source-url every time!!! 06:21
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SmokeMachine twitter.com/smokemachine/status/10...2386857984 06:51
Xliff \o/ 06:55
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skrshn Hi, I am trying to build rakudo for my company's internal distribution system 07:12
The rakudo package can be consumed by different environments which also determine the path where rakudo files gets placed 07:14
When building perl, someone wrote hacks so that, while building, perl was built using these options: 07:15
-Darchname="$PERL_ARCH" \ -Dinstallbin="$BUILD_ROOT/perl/perl/bin/perl5.8" \ -Dinstallman1dir="$BUILD_ROOT/perl/perl/lib/perl5.8-dist/man/man1" \ -Dinstallman3dir="$BUILD_ROOT/perl/perl/lib/perl5.8-dist/man/man3" \ -Dinstallprefix="$BUILD_ROOT/perl" \ -Dinstallprivlib="$BUILD_ROOT/perl/perl/lib/perl5.8-dist" \ -Dinstallscript="$BUILD_ROOT/perl/perl/bin/perl5.8" \ 07:16
oops
does not show up right
Basically, the prefix had -Dinstallprefix="$BUILD_ROOT/perl" 07:17
But in order to prevent any inadvertant files getting read during runtime, this was set - -Dprefix="/dev/null" 07:18
At runtime, the paths were properly massaged with the right locations
I am trying to do the same for rakudo/moar build 07:19
But I do not see parallel options for -Dinstall* and -D* where * is ("prefix", "siteman1dir", "sitebin", etc) 07:20
07:21 loops left
skrshn Basically, how do I accomplish the distinction between install path and compiled path for searching during runtime ? 07:21
Btw, Happy New Year to all of you fine folks! 07:23
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atacama \sb END 08:10
\sb HOME
\sb 30
\sb GOTO 30 08:11
\sb GOTO -30
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grondilu m: say rand() 08:13
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unsupported use of rand(); in Perl 6 please use rand
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say rand7⏏5()
grondilu wasn't there a sub version of rand?
in any case, that error message is not helping :/
m: say Num.rand() 08:14
camelia Invocant of method 'rand' must be an object instance of type 'Num', not a type object of type 'Num'. Did you forget a '.new'?
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
grondilu m: say 1.rand()
camelia 0.04288197494520607
grondilu m: say rand 08:15
camelia 0.7614196536507829
grondilu oh ok
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grondilu also : happy new Year everyone ;-) 08:30
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jmerelo Happy new year! 10:57
yoleaux 01:58Z <SmokeMachine> jmerelo: a easy way to create html from perl6 is to use MemoizedDOM
jmerelo .tell SmokeMachine I'll check that out :-)
yoleaux jmerelo: I'll pass your message to SmokeMachine.
jmerelo squashable6: status 10:58
squashable6 jmerelo, ⚠🍕 Next SQUASHathon in 2 days and ≈23 hours (2019-01-05 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
jmerelo panics
Are you ready?
These are the stats for the visits for the Advent Calendar this year, including last month: perl6advent.files.wordpress.com/20...120236.png 11:07
They're almost half of what they were last year. We need to market a bit more our stuff...
It's been saved in part by the publication in Slashdot. They would have been totally dismal if that hadn't happened. 11:08
This is the breakdown of visits per year perl6advent.files.wordpress.com/20...120948.png Less visits than in 2010, and going down steadily since 2015. 11:12
Any thoughts on that? 11:13
AlexDaniel I guess something special happened in 2015!
;) ;) ;)
jmerelo AlexDaniel: and it became increasingly less special...
El_Che that's not a lot 11:14
jmerelo El_Che: this year, as a matter of fact, the post with the most visits has been one written another year... 11:16
AlexDaniel jmerelo: I'd agree with that statement. I think Raku & Rakudo development is very steady (in a good way)
jmerelo AlexDaniel: while that's probably true, it does not apply to the rest of the ecosystem. And has nothing to do with the marketing side, of which the Advent Calendar is a part. 11:17
AlexDaniel jmerelo: so every month you get a better compiler. If you want more hype let's make it once a year :D
v6.d was released very quietly though
jmerelo AlexDaniel: the release was buried by a controversy that probably didn't help anyone or anything 11:18
AlexDaniel and by that I mean that you couldn't hear anything because of all the screams related to “Raku”
:)
jmerelo Precisely
El_Che I wrote my 2c alson on wordpress :) 11:19
jmerelo Maybe the selection of articles was not optimal. I mean, it was basically you want to write something, here's your WP ID. Maybe we should make some selection next year based on wide appeal.
El_Che that was really a choice, I thought 11:21
jmerelo El_Che: you mean about the articles? Not really. We didn't have people exactly fighting to get their article published.
El_Che I mea you couldn't be selective because the lac of candidates 11:22
jmerelo El_Che: exactly
This article, last year, got ~7k visits perl6advent.wordpress.com/2017/12/...christmas/ It was by zoffix, and it was a nice introduction to some Perl 6 quirks
El_Che I am not a huge fan of advents 11:23
finding to time to read an article each day is difficult 11:24
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El_Che I use them when I am googling for something specific 11:24
jmerelo El_Che: reading and visiting is not exactly the same :-)
El_Che so, I often read older posts 11:25
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AlexDaniel El_Che: I have the same issue, yes 11:31
I've read some of the articles but definitely not all of them
jjmerelo AlexDaniel: I perfectly understand that. But that's not my point. 11:36
AlexDaniel jjmerelo: ok, so what's the point? Or what's the plan? 11:37
I saw very nice announcements on facebook
jjmerelo The point is, we need more and better marketing. In general, and in particular during Advent. Better planning, too. 11:38
AlexDaniel and reddit was fine too, I guess… haven't checked twitter
struggling to understand what can be done better
better articles would be nice, but how?
I tried to do my best… it took quite some energy, actually… if the standards were much higher maybe I wouldn't even attempt it… 11:39
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AlexDaniel and that's the third year I did it on 23rd, and all these years I barely had any time to do it (wouldn't be able to post it ahead of time) 11:40
jjmerelo AlexDaniel: articles with a wider appeal, and better marketed through reddit, hackernews, Twitter... 11:42
AlexDaniel: maybe a better first and last article...
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jjmerelo Here's also the number of commits (with authors and entropy) per year. raw.githubusercontent.com/JJ/TPF-G...s-year.png in the documentation repo. Lowest number since 2015 11:44
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AlexDaniel can be a positive, maybe the documentation doesn't suck that much anymore 11:45
but yeah, maybe you're right, maybe the overall interest is on a decline 11:46
jjmerelo AlexDaniel++ on the "not sucking" part... 11:47
AlexDaniel: and overall interest was not that big to start with...
AlexDaniel feels a mug throwing vibe 11:48
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El_Che Don't say Perl 7 11:48
jjmerelo AlexDaniel: not really mug throwing, but we do need to do some coordinated marketing and community-building efforts. 11:51
AlexDaniel hmm I feel like there was someone working on it… 11:52
but I guess their efforts were not very appreciated 🤷
jjmerelo AlexDaniel: and, without naming them, we miss them now...
AlexDaniel Zoffix: ♥
jjmerelo Zoffix++
Anyway 11:53
Let's talk about that in Riga, if not sooner.
I feel like we would need a Perl 6 toolchain & marketing summit, all by itself... 11:54
El_Che RakuConf 11:55
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Xliff Where is the Slashdot post? 12:16
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Xliff And yes. I'm not afraid to name names. I miss Zoffix, too. 12:25
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jjmerelo .tell Xliff it was a generic "Advent calendar" post, not specifically devoted to Perl 6. It was published Dec 2nd, I think. 12:34
yoleaux jjmerelo: I'll pass your message to Xliff.
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masak hehe, "and, without naming them," *names them* :P 12:58
Gott Nytt Aar, moritz :) 13:00
AlexDaniel of course our hero should be named 13:01
jjmerelo One thing is missing and another, completely different, doing. 13:02
And we need to do...
AlexDaniel I guess the problem with “coordinated marketing and community-building efforts” is that whenever you attempt it, somebody will always object and critique your efforts, because everyone somehow has an opinion on it
jjmerelo AlexDaniel: everyone is entitled to an opinion. But the point about coordination is that it will be made by many different people, not by a single person. 13:03
AlexDaniel on the other hand, you can go and implement (without documenting and testing) a feature in rakudo and nobody will say a word :)
jjmerelo AlexDaniel: that's another, and a completely different, problem, and it's a problem of governance of the whole thing 13:04
AlexDaniel jjmerelo: yeah right. Like if adding more people with their own opinions is going to make our lives easier
IMO would've been better if we just let Zoffix do their thing, and maybe even focused on making it easier for them
jjmerelo AlexDaniel: the point is never to make our lives easier, but to grow the community. It will definitely make our lives more complicated 13:05
Just imagine 20 questions in StackOverflow a day... No way.
AlexDaniel: at times, it's difficult to know who's calling the shots here. Overall, and in particular places. In general, it looks that whoever calls the shots is actually calling the shots. 13:06
AlexDaniel btw I'm also guilty of that
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AlexDaniel jjmerelo: yeah, that's pretty much how it works in open-source 13:07
jjmerelo: communitywiki.org/wiki/DoOcracy :)
El_Che The Perl 6 name is dead in the water, if you use an alias you get a civil war
good luck!
jjmerelo AlexDaniel: not really... in many cases, there are checks and balances and they can be implemented in GitHub.
kensanata AlexDaniel: Oh wow, a community wiki link in the wild! 13:08
AlexDaniel kensanata: ♥
jjmerelo El_Che: I wouldn't focus so much in the name, because you actually get a civil war too if you call it Perl 6. It's really a Catch-22 situation.
El_Che jjmerelo: try to market something without a name
AlexDaniel jjmerelo: I'm still struggling to understand your point, by the way. A lot of things are less than awesome, I get that. But if you're calling to action, then what's the action? 13:09
jjmerelo The thing is, to market something you need to know _who_ you are marketing it too.
AlexDaniel: for starters, I would say we should plan things more in advance. 13:10
And by things, I mean at least Squashathons and the Advent Calendar
Or course, monthly and rakudo star releases too and things attached to them like package and docker container releases. 13:11
Events with Perl 6 presence, too... 13:13
We need to know _what's_ to market before we do market it.
kensanata: looks like an interesting site; I hadn't found it before. Good work. 13:14
Maybe we should organize a Perl 6 conference? 13:19
El_Che jjmerelo: that would be a logical evolution. 13:21
jjmerelo: and also the trigger for the next big fight 13:22
moritz we already some Perl 6 hackathons 13:26
wasn't a big deal
we can just make another Perl 6 hackathon, and add a talk or two
(which seems to fit the goal more than a regular conference)
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Juerd Hackathons and conferences have a different target audience 13:31
jjmerelo Juerd, moritz: that's right. Are we going to do that? Despite fights? /cc El_che 13:32
We need our very own toolchain summit, for instance. Doc tooling needs a major overhaul. The ecosystem needs some attention. The travis tests compiling rakudo every single time is terribly out of date 13:35
And so on...
lizmat Happy New Year everybody! 13:46
lizmat tries to shake off the hangover she has
jjmerelo: wrt to "our own toolchain summit", I'm in two minds about that 13:47
mostly because I wasn't at the last PTS, and I have no idea how much interaction happened between Perl 5 and Perl 6 at that summit
or if everybody politely ignored the elephant in the room and did their own thing 13:48
if the latter, then I think it is time for a Perl 6 Toolchain Summit
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jjmerelo Happy new year! 13:54
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jjmerelo lizmat: if we are going to have some meaningful interaction from the perl5 team, then it would be interesting to keep doing it together. But other than using CPAN and having people who know more about everything around, I don't see how the synergy would arise. 13:56
I see more happening from the perl6 to perl5 field, substracting resources from perl5, than the other way round...
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pmurias jjmerelo: the module ecosystem works vastly better in Perl 5 (like they have metacpan instead of github homepages), so having something good to model ourself on is a benefit 13:59
yoleaux 31 Dec 2018 17:14Z <jmerelo> pmurias: is there a way to embed program output in HTML in 6pad?
31 Dec 2018 17:39Z <AlexDaniel> pmurias: `dd` is not working in 6pad, is that expected?
31 Dec 2018 17:43Z <AlexDaniel> pmurias: oh, I think anything that prints to stderr doesn't show up in the console
31 Dec 2018 17:44Z <AlexDaniel> pmurias: I can see it in the dev console though :)
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pmurias El_Che: have you ever been to a Perl conference? 14:01
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pmurias jjmerelo: if dd was fix and just printed stderr stuff to the 6pad terminal tap would it solve your (how to easily print stuff to html) problem 14:07
?
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jjmerelo sorry, I'm AFK now. Talk to you later... 14:09
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El_Che pmurias: yes, I have 14:19
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El_Che pmurias: lots of fun 14:19
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gfldex lizmat: could dd be taught to make the distiction between (int) and (Int)? 14:43
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pmurias El_Che: everytime I was at one it seems the vast majority of the Perl 5 oriented folk had a positive attitude to Perl 6 so splitting the conferences seems like just seperating ourselves from potential users 15:08
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jnthn My experience matches what pmurias just said. A Perl 6 *track* within a larger Perl conference could be an option, but even that is maybe not so practical for organizers as Perl 6 talks placed into appropriate sized rooms by expected attendance. 15:25
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pmurias jnthn: didn't a Perl 6 track somewhat happend on a few conferences? 15:41
* happen
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jnthn pmurias: I think it could have, though the majority have been single track, or mixed multi-track 15:43
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timotimo .o( multi-track presenting ?!? ) 15:44
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pmurias looking at the tpc 2018 none of the Perl 6 talks collided 15:46
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SmokeMachine Will be happening any perl/perl6 event on London this year? 15:50
yoleaux 10:57Z <jmerelo> SmokeMachine: I'll check that out :-)
SmokeMachine .tell jmerelo, please, let me know what you think! 15:51
yoleaux SmokeMachine: What kind of a name is "jmerelo,"?!
SmokeMachine .tell jmerelo please, let me know what you think! 15:52
yoleaux SmokeMachine: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.
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atweiden-air ping timotimo 16:24
github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/...r244633788
is it at all possible to get a "input.moarvm" from somewhere for a simple one-liner test? 16:25
buggable New CPAN upload: Math-Polygons-0.0.1.tar.gz by PSIXSTEVE cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/P/PS/...0.1.tar.gz 16:35
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jmerelo hi 16:42
yoleaux 15:52Z <SmokeMachine> jmerelo: please, let me know what you think!
buggable New CPAN upload: HTTP-Headers-0.3.0.tar.gz by HANENKAMP modules.perl6.org/dist/HTTP::Header...:HANENKAMP 16:45
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: what were you trying to do with perl6 and html? 16:54
jmerelo SmokeMachine: just an example using 6pad 16:55
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SmokeMachine jmerelo have you seen this? fco.github.io/MemoizedDOM/todo6.html 16:56
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: or this... perl6.github.io/6pad/#ada3d7e0a425...426a97039f 16:59
jmerelo: but I think I got it... it is a very big code...
To be used on a example... 17:00
jmerelo SmokeMachine: that looks great, but I was looking more for something that didn't need much DOM knowledge to use it. Some way to insert output in some fancy way in a web page 17:03
something like <% your output goes here %>
SmokeMachine jmerelo: what kind of output? HTML or just a string? 17:07
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jmerelo Well, HTML would be the thing; we already have the console if it's just a string. Can it be done? 17:08
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[ptc] m: 2/0 == 25/50 17:09
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of "==" in expression "/0 == 25/" in sink context (line 1)
[ptc] m: say(2/0 == 25/50)
camelia True
[ptc] btw: Happy New Year everyone :-) 17:10
dumb question: how can 2/0 == 25/50 evaluate to True?
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b2gills [ptc]: Very simple, there is a bug here: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/4a96...#L222-L230 17:27
It should probably just return False if either denominator is 0, rather than checking the numerators at all. 17:30
It also seems to be based on earlier non-normalized forms of Rat, because I think it could just do `so(a.denominator && b.denominator && a.denominator == b.denominator && a.numerator == b.numerator)` 17:33
Wait, that doesn't take care of Inf's 17:35
Anyway the nqp::mul_I would only be needed for a non-normalized Rat, which can't happen anymore. 17:37
[ptc] b2gills: thanks for the heads up, that certainly explains it 17:38
SmokeMachine jmerelo: it’s hard doing this on a mobile phone, but here it is: perl6.github.io/6pad/#5c999baafb67...efa11e3d1c 17:45
jmerelo: see that the “working” is a link... 17:46
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jmerelo SmokeMachine: that makes it a bit simpler. Thanks! 17:55
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jmerelo m: say(2/0 == 333) 17:57
camelia False
jmerelo m: say(2/0 == 1/2)
camelia True
jmerelo m: say(2/0 == 3/6)
SmokeMachine jmerelo: please, let me know when whatever you want to do is done... I’m curious...
camelia True
jmerelo SmokeMachine: my intention is to provide examples for a new book (for Apress) I'm working in... 17:58
m: say(2/0 == 3/9)
camelia True
jmerelo m: say(333/0 == 3/9)
camelia True
jmerelo That is not good...
say 333/0
m: say 333/0
camelia Attempt to divide by zero when coercing Rational to Str
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
SmokeMachine jmerelo: I was thinking of write the first perl6 book in Portuguese...
jmerelo m: say (333/0).Numeric 17:59
camelia Attempt to divide by zero when coercing Rational to Str
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
jmerelo m: say (333/0).Num
camelia Inf
b2gills 2/0 becomes 1/0
jmerelo m: say (333/0).Num == 3/6
camelia False
SmokeMachine m: say (333/0).Num == (3/0).Num 18:00
camelia True
b2gills 3/9 becomes 1/3
The code I pointed to seems to assume that only NaNs have a zero denominator 18:01
m: say 1/0 == 1/3 18:02
camelia True
b2gills m: say 1/3 == 1/0
camelia True
b2gills Without checking, the code might predate Inf.Rat
jmerelo b2gills: but was that reported? It's a nasty bug... 18:03
b2gills I didn't
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rindolf Hi all, happy new year 18:53
Geth doc: 47eeea2237 | (JJ Merelo)++ | 2 files
Adds a section on :pack

Although it was rather well covered in the Blob page. Added some references, and changed definitions on that page.
doc: af41394a60 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/experimental.pod6
Removes comments

And introduction which is no longer relevant. Refs #2514 and it would close it if it weren't by the fact that I have discovered a new experimental feature, `smallnatives`, which begs documentation too.		 18:57
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/experimental
jmerelo hi, rindolf Happy new year for you too! 18:58
rindolf jmerelo: thanks 19:01
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rindolf jmerelo: what's new? 19:01
jmerelo Well, amazing Red by SmokeMachine is out
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jmerelo We also had a rather disappointing number of visits in the Advent Calendar and of contributions in the perl6 documentation 19:02
And I think we need a perl 6 toolchain summit/ hackathon/ con RSN
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rindolf jmerelo: twitter.com/smokemachine - i see 19:06
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rindolf jmerelo: i've written some Perl 5 and C code for github.com/shlomif/black-hole-solitaire 19:11
jmerelo rindolf: nice... 19:12
rindolf jmerelo: i now have a golf solver 19:14
jmerelo: i mean golf patience
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jmerelo rindolf: what kind of golf? 19:22
rindolf jmerelo: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf_(patience) - this one 19:23
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jmerelo rindolf: I had no idea. Nice! Will you try perl 6 too? 19:24
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rindolf jmerelo: the code is not too long 19:25
jmerelo: shouldn't take long to port from p5 19:26
jmerelo rindolf: great!
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Eiquoh . 19:33
rindolf jmerelo: thing is the C version is much faster than the p5 one - groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hacker...sages/5130 19:34
jmerelo rindolf: no wonder...
rindolf jmerelo: yes 19:37
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mst (he's not a perl6 user, he just joined to annoy me because I banned him elsewhere) 19:42
El_Che pmurias: I agree with your sentiment. However there are many people that don't care much about the other community. My point that if a Perl 6 only conference would make sense, but it will fuel the argument of people that don't want Perl 6 at all at Perl conferences. 19:50
jmerelo El_Che: what about a conference on concurrent, unicode-supporting, functional, MOP-including languages? 19:52
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Garland_g[m]1 Is there currently a way to create a realtime priority thread in perl6? 20:11
I don't see anything in the documentation for Thread for it or in Thread.pm6.
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Woodi hi #perl6 :) 20:45
Happy New Year everyone :)
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Woodi I think that all that v5 vs v6 problems are hard becouse there are more than 2 sides and when two sides agree 3rd is unhappy. so just doing what good matters and not worring too much is resonable... 20:48
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mst Woodi: agree 20:51
Woodi also browsing talks collection from SmallTalk conference I found "Extremally late binding" where is described virtual virtual machine YNFM with architecture very like current Rakudo... eg. page 22 and 24: esug.org/data/ESUG2003/piumarta.pdf
mst Woodi: shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/f_ck-perl-6/ is a rant of mine from years back basically saying that 20:52
Woodi and googling for YNFM gives pages.lip6.fr/vvm/projects_realizations/ynvm/ where is description of RVM: recursive Virtual Machine... TimToady once mentioned such thing and I was sure he is trolling... silly me 20:53
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Woodi mst: so many ugly words :) 20:57
mst Woodi: I did say rant 20:58
also the tone was pitched for the intended audience
also honestly if I'm ranting in real life my phrasing is basically exactly that
lizmat can corroborate that observation :-) 20:59
Woodi mst: generally: it is not totally bad if you are right :) 21:00
but not perfect either... 21:01
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Woodi I like that: "Because hey, the Perl 6 people KNOW what they have isn't "ready" for a lot of people's values of "ready" and they know that Perl 5 isn't dead and they're not trying to kill it either.". also rant is from 2009 and *just* 10 years passed :> 21:10
and last Advent posts was nice, even promised myself to do study of few posts 21:13
k, night
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timotimo Garland_g[m]1: you can probably use getpid in the thread itself and use NativeCall to set its priority, if it's possible to adjust an existing thread rather than explicitly creating one 21:17
Garland_g[m]1 Thanks. I'll look into that. 21:23
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guifa Is there any way to get Bag and Sets to work semi-intelligently with Lists/Arrays? 21:51
lizmat guifa: could you give an example ? 21:52
pmurias El_Che: it would both cause a bunch of arguments and doesn't have significant benefits so there is no point in doing that
guifa lizmat: bag([[1,2], [1,2], [1,2]]) 21:53
Expected: Bag([1,2](3))
Actual: Bag([1 2], [1 2], [1 2]) 21:54
I get that it's because it uses === and [1,2] !== [1,2], but that makes it really not useful. ANd I don't think that there's a :with to tell it to use eqv instead
lizmat guifa: it's not using eqv 21:55
guifa Right, I know
lizmat it's using .WHICH on the lists, and *that* is the real source of the issue
we don't have a true equivalent that Map is to Hash, for Arrays
as Lists (in my view) are being used for stuff they shouldn't be used for 21:56
that's why I made modules.perl6.org/dist/Tuple:cpan:ELIZABETH
fwiw, that module is written in such a way that it should be directly pastable in the setting, should we decide that's a good idea 21:58
guifa Yeah. I was just trying to work on codegolf.stackexchange.com/questio...uting-rows and the most obvious solution seemed on the surface to be using Bag
(plus a way to try to show off another feature of p6 ha) 22:00
lizmat I've been thinking of using some circumfix for tuples, but couldn't think of any 22:01
guifa: suggestions welcome 22:02
perhaps circumfix:<❪ ❫> ? 22:05
guifa the Kirby circumfix? :-) 22:06
lizmat circumfix:<⸨ ⸩> ? 22:07
dduncan I believe [] is an Array constructor, whose result is a mutable container, and in that case the implicit behavior should only consider the 2 equal when they are the same container. To get the desired behavior with the bag, the elements should be immutable List instead.
That’s how it should work.
lizmat dduncan: except you cannot atm make a List immutable because it may have components that haven't been reified yet 22:11
dduncan Oh? I’m still catching up on this.
lizmat that's the whole issue, really :-( 22:12
dduncan I’m accustomed to thinking of mutable containers still having value equality, but that for them they have value equality if and only if they are the same container. 22:13
lizmat m: my $a = 42; dd $a.VAR === $a.VAR # that is true
camelia Bool::True
pmurias Woodi: the rakudo design is a lot different from the YNVM 22:14
lizmat m: my $a = 42; my $b := $a; dd $a.VAR === $b.VAR # perhaps clearer
camelia Bool::True
guifa dduncan: that's why I was saying that maybe a :with(&foo) could be added to the bag constructor. Since that becomes an explicit behavior, it's on the coder to ensure they're passing things that are (if not technically) inmutable
pmurias Woodi: there is a big and clear abstraction layers rather then exposing the underlying machine and libc directly
guifa (that's what Array's .unique does, for instance) 22:16
lizmat: ⸨⸩ all by itself doesn't have any current meaning, yea? 22:22
lizmat m: dd ⸨⸩ 22:26
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Bogus term
at <tmp>:1
------> 3dd 7⏏5⸨⸩
expecting any of:
argument list
infix
infix stopper
postfix
prefix
statement end…
lizmat don't think so
dduncan For a bit of explanation, I was involved with Perl 6 for many years since around the early Pugs days, and then my personal time focused on developing a new language I created that was heavily inspired by or based on Perl 6 and aimed to match it in any cases it didn’t need to be different, but as a result I’m now looking back at Perl 6 with a worldview more centered in my own similar spinoff. So I’m accustomed to thinking in terms
all types having immutable values exclusively but that a Container is used to fake mutability without making any actual values mutable. So identity of an object compares deeply up to the point of reaching a Container and then doesn’t probe into what the Container contains, because that is the limit of what is guaranteed not to mutate. If that makes any sense.
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guifa lizmat: what about using something akin to the slip prefix that creates a tupled version? Say, _(1,2,3) 22:41
lizmat hmmm... 22:42
m: sub prefix:<_>(\a) { dd a }; _(1,2,3) 22:43
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared name:
_ used at line 1
guifa Then it'd be easy to do @inmutable = _@mutable which I'm sure could be useful somewhere
lizmat m: sub circumfix:<_( )_>(*@a) { dd @a }; _(1,2,3)_ 22:44
camelia Array element = [1, 2, 3]
lizmat that might work
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dduncan Question on naming conventions. Would anyone frown on using underscores to separate words in package names, example Foo_Bar, like is the convention with routine names, or is that just as acceptable as writing FooBar? My sensibilities prefer consistent underscores but I see no existing Perl 6 modules do that. 22:57
To be clear, this is for cases when we aren’t trying to make a namespace. 22:58
So I have something I could call Ax::Bx::Cx_Dx or Ax::Bx::CxDx.
jnthn The most common convention I see is to use - rather than _ in routine and variable names, and camel case in package names. 23:00
dduncan I was assuming the proper semantics were that - separators were only used when representing compound words in the larger name, and underscore was used otherwise. 23:01
jnthn I'm not sure why I'd use both a case distinction and an underscore personally, though if it was a useful module I doubt I'd refuse to use it just because of the naming convention used :) 23:02
dduncan I find case distinction useful so that its easier to tell when one’s referring to a proper name or acronym versus something else. 23:03
jnthn dduncan: However "proper", those aren't what's actually happening. I think for many folks that's a very subtle distinction.
dduncan So for example, one may make a routine name like convert_Foo_to_Bar() where Foo and Bar are type names.
If one is normally capitalizing package or type names, I think all references to that should be the same case. 23:05
SmokeMachine wouldn’t be better `multi convert(Foo $, Bar) {...}` ?
dduncan I’m just illustrating a point.
jnthn dduncan: And indeed coercion methods like $foo.Str do that 23:06
dduncan So for example if we were working with JSON, an acronym name, both package names and routine names would spell it uppercase universally, not say JSON in one case and json in another.
Right.
So to my original question, I see on further look that some released Perl 6 module names use - for word separators. 23:08
lizmat
.oO( kebab-case )
dduncan Or a small handful do, and one actually uses underscore. 23:09
So eg PDF::ISO_32000 for one case and Locale-Codes-Country or Perl6-Math-Quaternion for the other, although the latter 2 look more like namespaces. 23:10
Anyway, I have no further questions here, thank you.
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