»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
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Xliff hahainternet: OK, thanks! 00:12
I will start looking, too.
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ChoHag Wow this is an interesting discussion which I have no idea how I stumbled upon: github.com/perl6/user-experience/issues/33 00:34
I know I'm not really much of a part of this community and so my opinion has as much weight, but from an outsider's perspective all I can suggest is: stop taking yourselces so fucking seriously. 00:35
I mean every word (but not every typo). 00:36
Genuine prima donnas would be ashamed. 00:39
El_Che The famous issue 33 00:51
ChoHag It's famous is it? I'm not surprised. 00:52
My "user experience" can be mostly summed up as "fucking hell you guys are so far up your own arses you heads appear where they're supposed to be". 00:54
rjbs ChoHag: That issue is from two months ago and has no discussion on it since. Now you show up to tell people they're being assholes. What are you hoping to accomplish here? 00:58
ChoHag Accomplish? 00:59
Mostly spend time until I'm tired enough to sleep.
Why? What do you generally intend to accomplish with things?
rjbs If I showed up in a IRC channel and brought up a topic, it would be for a reason. 01:00
ChoHag But wait. I forgot even though *I just read the damn thing*. 01:01
Considering the rants of yours that I've read, it probably would.
Some people always have to have a damn point. 01:02
That's C21 all over.
rjbs Okay. 01:05
ChoHag Really?
"Okay"?
Is that the best you can do?
El_Che this conversation is going into a weird direction
ChoHag "Here is a point but it might offend me so fuck it, I'm out".
"That's C21 all over."
rjbs It seems like you are here to stir shit for your own entertainment, and I am not interested in being part of it. 01:06
ChoHag God damn it people grow some fucking backbone.
rjbs: Aren't you the guy who said he trolls people for shits and giggles?
rjbs No. I have no idea who you are thinking of.
ChoHag Am I conflating you with ribasushi?
If incorrectly I apolagise. 01:07
rjbs That is not out of the question.
ChoHag With correct spelling.
Anywai I'm not trying to stir shit, it seems like that would be redundant. 01:08
I'm trying to figure out what the fuck happened to the only programming language that seemed to be going anywhere.
I left it alone for a while and then this 'infamous' issue 33 shows up. 01:09
I mean what the fuck? Seriously?
And who the fuck cares what it's called? 01:10
Larry had the right idea there. "Stick 'raku' on it if you want, we have more important things to deal with".
timotimo there were a couple examples showing having "perl" in the name makes people immediately reject the language 01:11
ChoHag Good. Those people are idiots.
timotimo and there's plenty people who are very angry at perl6 having Their Languages Name in it
ChoHag I don't even reject *PHP* and that's ... well PHP. 01:12
timotimo how about we clone you a few billion times and replace all of humanity
ChoHag hmm. Not so sure about that.
Have you seen "Rimmerworld"?
timotimo just saying "these people are all dumb for not having the same opinion as me" - which is a bit more extreme than what you're suggesting - is barely helpful for such an emotionally-charged situation 01:13
ChoHag Humans need replacing, sure, but I can't think of any alternative that would actually be *better*.l
b2gills That issue is just the latest incarnation of battle that has been happening for many years.
timotimo that's true
ChoHag What gave you the impression that I think people should have the same opinion as me? 01:14
I'd *hate* that.
El_Che ChoHag: by calling those people idiots
ChoHag Well?
They are.
timotimo maybe not "the same opinion as me", more "only opinions i respect" i guess?
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ChoHag Humans are idiots. It's built in. 01:14
timotimo that's just a cop-out
ChoHag Accepting the inadequacy of my own genetics is a cop-out? 01:15
timotimo no
"these people are idiots" has a well understood meaning, but then you go ahead and say "all humans are idiots", which just negates what you said in the first place 01:16
b2gills Calling a person an "idiot", is saying they are more idiotic than normal
ChoHag Both statements are true.
These people, whoever they are, are idiots.
All humans are idiots.
timotimo what b2g said
ChoHag Yes. Also true. 01:17
El_Che ChoHag: issue 33 pales compared to calling people iditots because you disagree. 01:18
timotimo if you're really just looking to pass the time until you can fall asleep, i'd prefer you discuss something with us that doesn't have quite this potency for frustration and anger
ChoHag I don't call people idiots because I disagree.
Disagreement is the first step towards the suggestion that maybe you *aren't* an idiot.
b2gills Then what was the point of this entire discussion?
El_Che issue 33 is about a disagreement 01:19
ChoHag timotimo: Then don't get frustrated or angry.
timotimo i'm not the one i'm refering to
ChoHag If my words can engender such feelings, perhaps you're too susceptible to the opinions of nobodies spouting their uninformed opinions on the internet? 01:20
b2gills Issue 33 lead to one person getting a lot of unnecessary and unwarranted flak, that eventually lead to them leaving entirely.
timotimo #perl6 is a mystical place where it can usually safely be assumed people are acting and speaking in good faith
ChoHag Hahahaha. 01:21
Have you met people?
"Good faith".
timotimo i have met people from #perl6
ChoHag Dear god...
timotimo you're aware i'm not talking about people in general?
b2gills Frankly many of us are tired of hearing the countless naming arguments that have happened over the years.
ChoHag I figure you're probably talking about me, but you're wrong so I deflected.
timotimo hold on, am i wrong when i claim you can be assumed to be acting in good faith? 01:22
ChoHag Yes. You're wrong.
timotimo i'm not wrong, because that's not what i said 01:23
ChoHag I'm being truthful
timotimo in fact, a said almost the opposite
ChoHag There's a difference.
b2gills Perhaps you shouldn't say the "people" are idiots, but instead they are "acting" idiotic.
ChoHag b2gills: But then I'd be stating a falsehood.
b2gills If you want respect, then you have to give others respect. 01:24
timotimo whether "every person is an idiot" is a universal truth is very much arguing semantics, isn't it?
ChoHag Respect is earned, not assumed.
El_Che Respect is lost rather
ChoHag That too.
b2gills You haven't been engendering any respect here. 01:25
timotimo i'm getting the impression we're working with non-compatible dictionaries here 01:26
ChoHag b2gills: Respect and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee. 01:27
b2gills A fast way to lose any respect is to give disrespect. Calling a person an idiot is disrespectful.
ChoHag (+ inflation)
b2gills Online communities fail when there isn't enough respect.
El_Che Furthermore, whatever point you wanted to make about the issue or the community is lost by the delivery. See we"re talking about idiots now 01:28
ChoHag We are indeed.
Yet nobody has looked in a mirror yet.
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El_Che why should we? We have to to tell us what we are ;) 01:29
ChoHag "Why should we?"
Well that says it all I guess.
Introspection? Fuck THAT gas. 01:30
El_Che See
b2gills You do realize that was supposed to be a joke right?
lucs ChoHag: What time have you got? Sleepy yet?
ChoHag lucs: Not even close. 01:31
lucs :(
ChoHag Sorry. You'll just have to come up with actual arguments containing actual coherence.
It's a drag but there it is.
b2gills What are you trying to accomplish? 01:32
leont Honestly, this discussion suffers from the same issue as #33, it's not bringing us any further. 01:33
ChoHag b2gills: Stick a wedge in the engine that's been grinding away at destroying my profession for the past 3/4 decades. 01:34
Or: Make people grow a fucking pair.
(Or the female equivalent - we're all about sexual equivalence here)
leont I don't doubt the sincerity of the emotions that that issue, most people here share your frustration
b2gills It takes a "real man" to call others idiots. (apparently) 01:35
ChoHag No.
It takes a real man to admit that *he is also in the group he's calling idiots*.
leont But this way of expressing it is not helpful. It's destructive instead of constructive.
ChoHag I've met vanishingly few programmers who fit that mould.
Issue 33, as it's known, is a *fantastic* example of that lack. 01:36
It kind of amuses me that in a group of *programmers*, people who in theory pride themselves on precision, couldn't spot that.
b2gills If you want others to see that, you are taking the exact wrong way to show them. 01:37
When you call someone an idiot, they stop listening to you.
ChoHag That's their loss.
When someone calls me an idiot, I ask what I've done wrong.
b2gills I thought you wanted to stop the issue that was grinding away at your profession. You can't do anything to stop that if no-one listens to you. 01:38
timotimo i have not yet grasped what exactly about #33 is about being up one's own arse, or what people should grow a backbone for 01:39
b2gills As an example there was one person who would frequently call other people on P5P idiots or similar. No-one listened to him, even if he had good ideas. 01:40
ChoHag b2gills: He sounds like a cunt. 01:41
b2gills You sound a lot like him.
El_Che lol
ChoHag People are idiot. All people. Why single anyone out? That's not helpful.
leont b2gills: Only one?
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b2gills This was after P5P started cleaning up its act. 01:42
You singled out the people who responded on #33 as idiots. 01:43
ChoHag No. You did.
You jumped to conclusions that weren't ther.e
b2gills Note that I didn't say who I was talking about on P5P. I also didn't call him an idiot 01:44
ChoHag (Apparently)
timotimo was the "idiots" specifically about people rejecting perl6 for having "perl" in the name?
b2gills I said he was being unproductive by being such a jerk.
ChoHag The "idiots" wasn't specific at all.
timotimo the "all people are idiots" was obviously not specific 01:45
but the "good. those people are idiots."?
ChoHag Well they're people aren't they?
b2gills It sounded specific. as in specifically the people who were involved on issue #33
ChoHag "those people" is definitely a subset of "all people". 01:46
timotimo you said that before you made clear what your interpretation of "idiot" was
ChoHag I'm sorry.
Next time I'll start my ranting with a glossary.
timotimo oh, you can put in explanations lazily
when it becomes obvious that you're not communicating effectively because your target audience is working with a different dictionary 01:47
ChoHag Well glossaries *do* usually come somewhere near the end...
timotimo they do, but in mediums that allow random access, usually
ChoHag You can random access me as much as you like.
It's called "asking questions" or "communication". 01:48
I assumed you'd heard of it.
b2gills Also if they are using a non-standard definition they will generally bring it up at the first invocation.
ChoHag Forgive me for my lack of insight.
I assumed developers were a bit bright.
timotimo we're humans, humans use heuristics 01:49
ChoHag You're right.
b2gills We are bright, but we also are sticklers for precision. You were being imprecise with the definition of the word "idiot".
ChoHag My basic premise is that humans are idiots. I should have extrapolated.
timotimo when someone says "fuck you" to me, i wouldn't assume they're humorously referring to the fact that there's cells in me that are built to sexually multiply rather than just splitting. i'd assume they're insulting me
El_Che ChoHag: I wonder if you're good at parties... 01:50
ChoHag El_Che: Not really.
timotimo when you say "these people are idiots", i'm assuming that you're saying it to transmit some information
El_Che <shocked>
:)
ChoHag But - get this - there actually people who like me!
timotimo i can totally understand that
El_Che are they idiots?
b2gills If all humans are idiots, there is no point it calling any group of people idiots. So why did you have to say it?
ChoHag El_Che: They're human. 01:51
El_Che Are there smarter and dumber idiots in your worldview? 01:52
ChoHag El_Che: That's a good question. My gut feeling says no. 01:53
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ChoHag I've met some very stupid smart people and some dumb people who's opinions I'd weigh with careful precision. 01:54
And vice versa, of course. 01:55
El_Che stupid is an adjective, not a noun in your worldview 01:58
ChoHag OK? 01:59
timotimo would you mind elaborating for me what you think the people in #33 are doing wrong, with regards to being up their own arse, taking themselves too seriously, and needing to grow a backbone?
ChoHag Politics. 02:01
timotimo that didn't help me much, i think 02:03
ChoHag No probably not.
Would it help if I said that "computers were invented by people who know things, but now they're run by people who merely know how things work"? 02:05
No probably not. 02:06
timotimo you're mourning the lack of philosophers in computer science and technology fields? 02:07
ChoHag That's a nicely succinct (although incomplete) way of putting it.
El_Che I think we lost leont. He probably went to answer some p5p mails to relax :) 02:08
timotimo hey now, don't call 'em out like that for leaving the discussion :) 02:09
ChoHag I left?
Wow you guys are really *good* at seeing what's not there. 02:10
timotimo no, the other guy
ChoHag Ah sorry. Lack of comma.
Or assumed comma. One of those.
"I think we lost, leont" != "I think we lost leont"
timotimo oh, that's how 02:11
ChoHag Isn't it funny how a mere 8 bits can disrupt an entire conversation?
Perhaps that, and the larger lesson it implies, should be taken into account occasionally... 02:12
timotimo that it's easy to misunderstand each other?
ChoHag Indeed. 02:13
We're *good* at it.
timotimo what's the important distinction between something being easy vs humans being good at something? :P
ChoHag I'm not so sure there is a distinction. 02:14
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timotimo maybe miscommunication is even more likely than communication in the general case 02:16
ChoHag (And as an aside, this is rather the point - I started this conversation as an apparent arsehole but, after what amounts to nothing more than a bytes transferred between devices in random parts of the world, the conversation is apparently edging towards civility) 02:17
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ChoHag (That's not to say that I've progressed beyond "apparent arsehole" - that's not really up to me anyway) 02:18
timotimo i think we've got more signal in between the noise now 02:23
though also less transmission in total as i've got rather sidetracked by other stuff
lucs "There is no such thing as conversation. It is an illusion. There are intersecting monologues, that is all." -- Rebecca West 02:24
ChoHag Well I almost went with "Rebecca" for my daughter's name but now I'm glad I didn't. 02:25
She's almost right. Very very almost. But also so very very wrong.
Conversations *do* happen. But rarely. 02:26
timotimo there's the philosophy, finally
ChoHag Amazing what happens when one doesn't storm off in a huff... 02:27
It's almost like the people one doesn't agree with can occasionally, and eventually, say something worth saying. 02:28
At least I like to think that's what I've done... 02:29
I guess to bring it all back to issue 33, what I saw was people leaving (sometimes dramatically) the discussion because - shock! horror! - there was disagreement. 02:30
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ChoHag Disagreement is the spice of life. Only the English are happy to eat without spice. 02:30
And fuck those guys (for the record, I'm English). 02:31
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timotimo btw what kind of thing are you interested in making/doing with perl6? 02:45
ChoHag I think it's the language that can tell computers what they're supposed to do. 02:54
We've made, as a species, many attempts but perl 6 is the closest thing I've seen so far which bridges the gap between the way humans think and the way computers work. 02:55
timotimo i guess that's larry's influence as a linguist that's causing this :) 02:56
ChoHag And y'all are fucking it up in ways I have trouble articulating and it's making me upset, It *should* be great in exactly the way that Trump isn't. 02:57
timotimo you're upset we've seemingly strayed far from the "underpromising and overselling" tradition? 02:58
ChoHag No that's too trite.
timotimo i'm not sure i grok the meaning of trite here
ChoHag I'm upset that you (perl 6 "people") glimpsed greatness and nevertheless descended into bikeshedding.
I mean, who the fuck cares what it's called? 02:59
Nobody who matters, that's who.
timotimo we have to rely mostly on word-of-mouth 03:00
so people who have metaphorical mouths matter, which is most of them
ChoHag The thing with mouths is, they're quite vocal.
But they rarely have brains behind them.
I mean just look at what I was sayin ~2 hours ago. 03:01
timotimo thing is, it's not the loudness that makes a mouth more valuable
ChoHag Very loud, very noisy, excited a lot of people, but for what?
But people pay attention to that and not to the people who actually, quitely, forge progress. 03:02
timotimo speaking of, i should be blogging more than just my grant progress ...
Juerd ChoHag: Why would the people who care about the name, not matter?
That's a lot of people who supposedly wouldn't matter 03:03
ChoHag Juerd: Quite. 03:04
They don't.
Why do they get airtime? 03:05
timotimo hey Juerd, have you been able to do much with perl6 recently? your last thing i saw was MQTT being slow at building its matchers, right?
i wonder who it was that had a multithreaded mandelbrot that output its result on an SDL window 03:06
that was like 5 years ago, though
actually i'll be signing off now, seeya! 03:14
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Xliff m: say |('a'..'z') xx *; 03:54
camelia (...)
Xliff m: my @digs = |('a'..'z') xx *; @digs.say
camelia [...]
Xliff m: my @digs = |('a'..'z') xx *; .say for @digs
camelia (timeout)a
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i…		 03:55
Xliff m: my @digs = |('a'..'z') xx *; @digs.elems.say 03:58
camelia Cannot .elems a lazy list
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: my @digs = ('a'..'z') xx *; @digs.elems.say
camelia Cannot .elems a lazy list
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: my @digs = |('a'..'z') xx *; @digs.elems.say
camelia Cannot .elems a lazy list
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff Huh! Endless loop? * == Inf in this case?
m: my @a = 'a' xx *; @a.elems.say 04:00
camelia Cannot .elems a lazy list
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: my @a = 'a' xx *; @a[0]
camelia ( no output )
Xliff m: my @a = 'a' xx *; @a[0].say
camelia a
Xliff m: my @a = 'a' xx *; @a[1].say
camelia a
Xliff m: my @a = 'a' xx *; @a[1000000].say
camelia a
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Geth doc: finanalyst++ created pull request #2595:
new test for generated html files		 04:56
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cpan-p6 03cpan-p6 reporting for duty! [Perl 6] 02git.tyil.nl/perl6/app-cpan-uploadnotifierbot 09:52
New module released to CPAN! Monitor-Monit (0.0.3) by 03JSTOWE 09:53
New module released to CPAN! FastCGI-NativeCall-PSGI (0.0.4) by 03JSTOWE
New module released to CPAN! Audio-Sndfile (0.0.13) by 03JSTOWE
New module released to CPAN! Tinky-JSON (0.0.5) by 03JSTOWE
New module released to CPAN! WebService-Soundcloud (0.0.7) by 03JSTOWE
New module released to CPAN! Net-BGP (0.0.9) by 03JMASLAK
New module released to CPAN! Pg-Notify (0.0.3) by 03JSTOWE
New module released to CPAN! Net-BGP (0.0.8) by 03JMASLAK
tyil ok, it seems it doesnt restart on disconnects yet
so that's something I should look in to
Geth doc: 9c2589ee9a | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/Whatever.pod6
Revising and reflowing for #2017
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Whatever
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Geth doc: e24031ed4b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Update RT lemma
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/glossary
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lizmat notable6: weekly 10:50
notable6 lizmat, 7 notes: gist.github.com/ed8cbd0bbdbc651635...242ebd5b46
AlexDaniel reportable6: 2019-01-21T00:00:00Z 2019-01-28T00:00:00Z 10:51
reportable6 AlexDaniel, OK, working on it! This may take up to 40 seconds
AlexDaniel, gist.github.com/7a46ee6e0a04abf1d1...3777da1694 10:52
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ufobat hey guys 11:25
is anyone of you using the Test module "Testo" written from zoffix? or is anyone able to explain me why "use Test" was replaced by Testo? 11:27
i would like to remove "Testo" from zoffixs modules because Testo is not "complete" and unmaintained. 11:32
Any opinions?
AlexDaniel ^^
Geth doc: 6b084b57aa | (JJ Merelo)++ | 2 files
Clarifies Bufs closes #2596
AlexDaniel ooooooooooh a gsoc project potential right there! 11:33
tadzik nope! Chuck Testo 11:39
AlexDaniel taa-daa github.com/perl-gsoc-2019/ideas/issues/9 11:40
greppable6: Testo
greppable6 AlexDaniel, 99 lines, 16 modules: gist.github.com/fe88e9c824b8442b60...afa91ac029
AlexDaniel heh, Testo is a very Blin-like name
ufobat: I see only two modules 11:41
ufobat Chuck Testo?
AlexDaniel, well thats the 2 modules that bother me right now ;) 11:42
AlexDaniel ufobat: so use Test was replaced by Testo because Test sucks 11:43
cpan-p6 New module released to CPAN! UNIX-Privileges (0.1.2) by 03JSTOWE
11:43 nebg joined
AlexDaniel ufobat: if move tests from Testo to Test, you'll likely introduce problems, because Test sucks 11:44
leont Testing done right would be a good project
AlexDaniel if you move**
leont I have started such a module as well, but didn't get around to finishing it
AlexDaniel ufobat: so… what's wrong with Testo? I mean, is there any reason to switch? Functions seems to be relatively similar and easy enough to understand 11:45
leont What you need is something that is flexible, extensible and testable.
AlexDaniel leont: can you mentor that GSoC project, please?
ufobat AlexDaniel, it doesnt have skip tests
AlexDaniel hmm
leont I could. If I don't end up doing it myself before summer.
But even if I do, writing an ecosystem around it would be a fine project 11:46
ufobat AlexDaniel, and i am not sure but, do you know why zoffix had disabled the tests for Temp::Path?
AlexDaniel leont: what do you mean by writing an ecosystem around it?
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leont Much like p5 Test::Builder has an ecosystem 11:46
ufobat is it because Testo didn'# work
because Temp::Path doesn't have CI and I am unhappy with that 11:47
mikejw whether I install rakudo star using the windows installer or using choclatey, git bash can't seem to find the perl6 binary
ufobat # == ? (it was a question)
AlexDaniel ufobat: github.com/perl6-community-modules...e5642bda96
ufobat: I'm not sure… try reenabling them maybe?
ufobat yeah i saw that commit 11:48
AlexDaniel leont: I'm not familiar with Test::Builder…
leont: can you leave a comment on the issue saying that you can mentor it? github.com/perl-gsoc-2019/ideas/issues/9
ufobat maybe leont you could write a PR to Testo to explain the benefits in the README.md? 11:49
and i wont drop it
but unless Testo has a maintainer i am having concerns using it
AlexDaniel ufobat: actually the benefits are written in SYNOPSIS 11:50
no `is` pitfall when comparing lists, no hard-to-remember routines like `like`
leont AlexDaniel: Essentially it's a small core, but with lots of extensions, and a facility to test those extensions. 11:51
ufobat it's a Test Framework with Do-what-I-mean & disabling you the ability to be strict in tests anymore? 11:52
leont That way you don't need one test framework that has to get everything right. Sometimes there isn't one way, other times the idea of what's right changes over time.
It allows for much more growth. 11:53
Having such a framework would also mean that writing a Testo on top would be trivial.
mikejw has anyone had this issue? 11:54
ufobat mikejw, have you added the path to the System Configuration / Global Path thingy?
leont, how does it allow more growth? 11:55
from perl5 i know there are modules that extend the syntax, with adding more keywords/subs 11:56
but Testo is reimplementing them
leont I wasn't talking about Testo, but about writing a Test::Builder 11:57
ufobat ah!
leont Two entangled conversations, because IRC
ufobat well thenn AlexDaniel i dont see a benefit in what SYNOPSIS describes, a dwim on tests means that if you accidently change your interface from List to Seq and your test dont notice it, but your application might blow up 11:58
leont, sorry :-)
AlexDaniel ufobat: yes, you're absolutely right, which is why we have Testo… 11:59
ufobat: if you look closely it's exactly what it solves, when compared to Test
leont doesn't really see the point of Testo by itself either. It's slightly different functions, but ultimately still has the limitations as Test.pm
ufobat AlexDaniel, huh? 12:00
AlexDaniel leont: the point was to experiment with Testo and then replace Test with Testo
ufobat with testo this passes: is (1, 2, (3, 4)), [1, 2, [3, 4]]; # test passes
but in fact youre comparing list and array, i woud never like to pass it 12:01
leont Both semantics are useful
AlexDaniel ufobat: compare that to Test which compares strings in this case
jnthn AlexDaniel: Only if you use `is` rather than `is-deeply`, though... 12:02
AlexDaniel jnthn: that's correct, and in Testo that's `is-eqv`
jnthn AlexDaniel: I think "`Test` sucks" is a bit over-simplistic; sure, you need to know what to use when, but if one has spent years doing that, it's quite serviceable. Can we give people better defaults? Surely, yes. 12:03
is-eqv is nicely shorter than `is-deeply` :) 12:04
AlexDaniel also more obvious, because is-deeply is using eqv, I think
jnthn Yeah
+1 to such a GSoC anyway. I'm just grumpy about blanket "X sucks" claims. :)
*GSoC project
ufobat i dont understand when Test is uses === and when eq 12:05
jnthn And also, what leont++ says: something that makes writing additional test modules easier is a good thing.
ufobat "unless $expected is a type object" means an *:U
AlexDaniel likes high level terms
12:05 mikejw left
AlexDaniel ufobat: it's always using ~~, no? 12:07
github.com/perl6-community-modules...st.pm6#L45 12:08
ufobat no i meant test's is
well i try to write a PR to add skip-tests into Testo, in oder to fix the tests for Subsets::IO 12:09
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ufobat but my concerns are still there. if testo doesn't have someone that maintains it, I would rather skip using it 12:09
mikejw I added rakudo bin paths to the system global "path" variable but that hasn't helped 12:11
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mikejw seems like I might have better luck with ConEmu 12:23
ufobat mikejw, did you reboot? 12:28
i have perl6 working on my gitshell 12:29
mikejw ufobat: I rebooted, yeah 12:30
:S
ufobat echo $PATH on the git shell?
mikejw "/c/Users/msn/bin:/mingw64/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/mingw64/bin:/usr/bin:/c/Users/msn/bin:/c/WINDOWS/system32:/c/WINDOWS:/c/WINDOWS/System32/Wbem:/c/WINDOWS/System32/WindowsPowerShell/v1.0:/c/WINDOWS/System32/OpenSSH:/c/Program Files (x86)/NVIDIA Corporation/PhysX/Common:" ... 12:31
"/c/HashiCorp/Vagrant/bin:/cmd:/mingw64/bin:/usr/bin:/c/ProgramData/chocolatey/bin:/c/rakudo/bin:/c/rakudo/share/site/bin:/c/Users/msn/AppData/Local/Microsoft/WindowsApps:/c/rakudo/bin:/c/rakudo/share/perl6/site/bin:/usr/bin/vendor_perl:/usr/bin/core_perl"
ufobat $ echo $PATH | perl -nE 'say for split /:/' | grep rakudo 12:32
mikejw "/c/rakudo/bin /c/rakudo/share/site/bin /c/rakudo/bin /c/rakudo/share/perl6/site/bin"
ufobat /c/rakudo/bin 12:33
/c/rakudo/share/perl6/bin
/c/rakudo/share/perl6/site/bin
awesome
:(
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rfold MasterDuke: there's plenty of built-in stuff, and NativeCall. That's sufficient for my application. 12:41
ufobat mikejw, when youre in c/rakudo/bin
do you have a perl6 file (without file extension) ?
rfold p6: sub circumfix:<⌈ ⌉>($x) { ceiling($x) }; say ⌈0.2⌉; 12:42
camelia 1
ufobat i think that the git shell doesn't execute *.bat when you just type * (but i would execute *.exe if you just type *)
ah no no no, i just set an alias: alias perl6='perl6.bat'
mikejw ufobat: no there isn't a file called "perl6" in that location 12:43
but there is perl6.bat
ufobat i have a perl6 file, that i created myself. i had the same troubles like you had
but i think i did fix it with the alias, my perl6 file, with no extension was my first try that didnt work
just add alias perl6='perl6.bat' to your ~/.bashrc 12:44
mikejw perl6.bat just hangs :/ 12:46
(within git bash)
ufobat the repl? 12:47
mikejw yeah
ufobat that happens to me as well
i just dont do it ;-p i just use perl6 -e
mikejw ok :) 12:48
ufobat I'll switch back go linux on the 1st of march :-) 12:49
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tobs I'm hitting the problem quite often recently when I reduce a Seq with a custom infix, e.g. `[§] $seq`, that it won't work with if $seq is empty or has only one element. I understand that it doesn't make sense in general to do that if § is an infix, but can I tell the [§] construct how to make sense of it in my particular case somehow? 13:56
jnthn tobs: I think you write arity 0 and arity 1 multis for your operator 13:57
tobs m: say [+] (,)
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Preceding context expects a term, but found infix , instead.
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say [+] (,7⏏5)
tobs m: say [+] ()
camelia 0
tobs jnthn: oh, clever. Let me try.
But + somehow knows its identity element, too.
m: say [+] 1
camelia 1
jnthn m: say infix:<+>()
camelia 0
jnthn m: say infix:<+>(1)
camelia 1
jnthn m: say infix:<+>(5) 13:58
camelia 5
tobs got it, thanks. That's even less intrusive than I had hoped for :)
and once again totally logical 13:59
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moritz m: say infix:<*>() 14:14
yoleaux 27 Jan 2019 18:59Z <MasterDuke> moritz: nice, i use perl6-all-modules a lot and that helps
camelia 1
moritz m: say infix:<~>()
camelia
moritz m: say infix:<~>().perl
camelia ""
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mikejw does anyone know if I should expect issues with the Terminal::Table modules (again on windows) 14:33
?
timotimo maybe it uses ansi escape codes? 14:38
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lizmat and another Perl 6 Weekly hits the Net: p6weekly.wordpress.com/2019/01/28/...r-of-code/ 14:57
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hahainternet the $_ commentary is very interesting 15:11
i wonder how that could have been detectable ahead of time
El_Che it's always a trade of, so yes and no 15:12
moritz lizmat: tweeted 15:14
El_Che lizmat: great job. 15:15
moritz: idem for the @perl6org account
timotimo "idem"? 15:16
El_Che same in latin
lizmat afk&
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ufobat AlexDaniel, could we pls have a cute picture for the perl community modules github group? :D 15:35
AlexDaniel ufobat: yes, done, but it says that it will take a while before it goes live 15:38
ufobat: also if there's a different picture that you'd prefer, I can do that too :)
actually… 15:41
AlexDaniel also updates the image on perl6 org 15:42
the old one didn't have transparent background
MUCH better :)
jnthn: extremely critical issue! Rakudo logo on github.com/rakudo has white (not transparent) background. You can use this version instead: github.com/perl6/marketing/blob/ma...x-3000.png 15:45
if you're at it, change the link too :) rakudo.org/ (with https)
moritz URL changed 15:47
Your profile picture has been updated. It may take a few moments to update across the site. 15:48
turns out somebody has made me rakudo admin as well :)
AlexDaniel moritz: maybe it's better to crop the name on the bottom? 15:51
ufobat AlexDaniel, i think i can't, or at least i didnt find it. i am just member. but i am happy with camelia :D 15:52
jnthn moritz++ for beating me to that :) 15:53
rfold p6: qw{abc}.perl.say
camelia "abc"
rfold I was surprised that qw{abc} didn't evaluate to a singleton list
AlexDaniel ufobat: yes, but you can order me to change it :) 15:55
rfold I suppose every abstraction has to treat non-lists as singleton lists 15:56
timotimo rfold: it's at least consistent with %foo<abc>
rfold Except some, apparently
AlexDaniel ufobat: we can also give it a description, like “Module Adoption Center” :) 15:58
ufobat sounds nice :-)
AlexDaniel ufobat: I'm actually not 100% sure about the goal of that repo 16:03
“community modules” sounds like the community is supposed to maintain these module
ufobat repo or group?
AlexDaniel org, yeah
mikejw ok I'm not sure if this is related to the issues I'm having but I've just noticed that this doens't work in git bash: $ perl6 -e "shell 'clear'";
ufobat somthing with orphaned, but that sounds pretty negative 16:04
moritz mikejw: please be more specific than "doesn't work"
AlexDaniel but that's just not going to work… I think it's best when the module is maintained and cared about by dedicated person/group, not “community”
mikejw "Use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context. Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful. in block <unit> at -e line 1 The spawned command 'clear' exited unsuccessfully (exit code: 1) in block <unit> at -e line 1"
moritz mikejw: so, "clear" itself didn't work, whatever that means 16:05
ufobat question is whether we want to maintain it or whether we want to find someone to take over.
AlexDaniel fwiw that snippet works fine here
ufobat I might want to add that I could take some modules but, i am afraid to, and I like to get the feedback of other ppl, sometimes
AlexDaniel well, it's open-source, we can always take it back by forking :D 16:06
so just let me know what exactly you want to maintain and I'll transfer
ufobat better stays silent now :) 16:07
I can do temp::path, but for example there is the issue i've opend where i want someone to say something smart :)
mikejw, not sure about shell, but run for example works differently on windows then on linux 16:08
it's not well documented but there are a few issues sprinkled over various repositories
mikejw, github.com/tadzik/Shell-Command/pull/22 <- have a look
stolen from ugexe++ 16:09
AlexDaniel ufobat: what about deleting on END only, not on DESTROY?
mikejw ufobat: interesting 16:10
ufobat when you die there is not END, no?
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AlexDaniel m: END { say ‘hello’ }; die ‘boo’ 16:11
camelia boo
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1

hello
AlexDaniel m: END { say ‘hello’ }; exit
camelia hello
AlexDaniel what…
how did that work
ufobat: so, I think there's no good reason to delete directories as early as possible 16:13
ufobat: who knows what the user did with the path object
deleting too late is better than deleting too early when you're still using it… 16:14
if someone needs to free some space ASAP they can always delete it manually, which is even better than waiting for a GC
ufobat AlexDaniel, I agree. Thats a big design change, Is there a Phaser that runs on die as well? 16:17
AlexDaniel ufobat: can you show an example when END doesn't run? 16:18
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ufobat I will have a look, i need to admit that i just thought so, because zoffix warned that you files wont get deleted when you program fails 16:23
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pmurias Was the gsoc advertised on the #perl irc channel? 16:27
ufobat *shrug* 16:28
pmurias is traveling but I'll write down my project ideas when I get back home 16:30
timotimo got a tiny preview for us? :D 16:31
pmurias Code splitting for the Js backend 16:32
So we don't bundle the whole setting and compiler 16:33
timotimo sounds useful
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mikejw ok wow.. it seems my problems (with windows) have been solved by switching from '$input = prompt "command > "' to '$input = prompt "command > "' 16:35
I mean...
$input = $*IN.get vs $input = prompt "command > " 16:36
pmurias The other project would to push the truffle backend further along
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patrickb pmurias: AFAIK it wasn't 16:39
ufobat mikejw, on which shell?
what is prompt? havent' seen it before 16:40
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timotimo it's print + get 16:40
ufobat ah cool
patrickb I tried to reach out to some people that know a bit about the p5 community but had no luck so far... Some advertisement would be a really good idea as we have only ~1 week left and up to now there were 0 responses from the p5ers... 16:41
mikejw ufobat: both ConEmu and git bash 16:42
pmurias Patrickb: try the channel
El_Che mst: ^-- see patrickb's message 16:44
pmurias And maybe also on irc.perl.org
pmurias is irc chatting on mobile web irc while trying to not miss the bus 16:45
patrickb pmurias: Will do!
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pmurias timotimo: the other idea would be to move the truffle backend further along 16:50
timotimo yup, that message arrived successfully already 16:51
pmurias /Me got confused why it didn't show up in the irc log ;/ 16:52
timotimo oh? weird 16:53
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patrickb pmurias: It is ok to submit more than one idea you'd be willing to mentor for and see which one attracts a student. If I understand the system correctly, we (as in the perl gsoc organization) can decide afterwards which one we actually want to take. 16:55
melezhik Hi! I have version numbers in format a.b.c, they packed internally into "$maijor.$minor$patch" for example "0.1.1" turns into "0.001001", so comparison with Vesion.new gives me what I don't expect
m: say Version.new("0.1.1") > Version.new("0.001001")
camelia False
melezhik m: say Version.new("0.1.1") == Version.new("0.001001") 16:56
camelia False
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pmurias patrickb: In the past the ideas where just suggestions and the students where actually submitting proposal for what they found interesting 16:56
Even original ones 16:57
melezhik so I need to convert "$major.$minor$patch" format into "canonical" one - "$major.$minor$patch" - what is the easiest way to do that?
I am guessing if there if the way to do that through Version class? 16:58
sorry, typo , the "canonical" formal is "$major.$minor.$patch"
sena_kun m: (v1.3c).parts().join('.') 16:59
camelia ( no output )
sena_kun m: (v1.3c).parts().join('.').say
camelia 1.3.c
sena_kun melezhik, can this help ^ ?
melezhik sena_kun: not sure, I need to convert for example String "0.001001" into version 0.1.0 17:01
I can use regexp/split for that, just looking probably for nicer way ((=: 17:02
sena_kun hmm, then likely not
m: (v0.001001).parts.say
camelia (0 1001)
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sena_kun I think you want a custom code that will transform parts into a form you want then. 17:03
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tobs m: say "0.001001".split('.').map(-> $major, $decimal { Version.new: join '.', $major, |$decimal.comb(3) }) 17:21
camelia (v0.001.001)
tobs m: say "0.001001".split('.').map(-> $major, $decimal { Version.new: join '.', $major, |$decimal.comb(3)».Int })
camelia (v0.1.1)
tobs well, not too pretty either 17:22
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melezhik tobs: works for me! I like it ... better than regexp parsing 17:44
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andrzejku shit I checked my Linux distro 18:00
and have no default rakudo : (
anymore
sjn oh noes! 18:02
andrzejku: have you had a look at blogs.perl.org/users/shoichi_kaji1/...6env.html? :)
18:02 melezhik left 18:03 sauvin left
El_Che andrzejku: which one? 18:04
andrzejku eemm 18:05
I prefer
rakudo native package
Solus
El_Che andrzejku: is it based on something?
it doesn't look likes it on wikipedia 18:06
andrzejku El_Che, no that's independent 18:07
but really nice
tadzik ah, that's the one with gaming stuff in it 18:08
andrzejku I have a big problems with Linuxes as I installed it on iMac
but Bundie looks really nice
with Retina
:D
Budgie
El_Che andrzejku: do you write ryby? If you add support for their pkg format on fpm (github.com/jordansissel/fpm) I can add it rakudo-pkg for binaries 18:09
andrzejku El_Che, amm no
El_Che, I am old school C programmer
El_Che andrzejku: mmm, it does not make sense to invest time in eopkg because it will be replaced with "sol" (github.com/solus-project/sol) 18:12
it seems
however, that repo looks dead
andrzejku are you Solus user too? 18:13
El_Che no, I was looking at their docs to see if I would quickly add it to rakudo-pkg
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El_Che andrzejku: I use Ubuntu, mostly 18:14
andrzejku actually eopkg is really nice and tiny 18:16
El_Che yeah, but if it uses fpm it almost no work. Or if I know the pkging format (which I don't). 18:17
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ufobat m: my $x = *.not; $x.perl.say 18:42
camelia { ... }
ufobat is that the expected and correct output?
because i've got a test failure with Subsets::IO on windows, comparing a smartmatch (that returns False) with *.not 18:43
sena_kun it outputs `{ ... }` as it is a WhateverCode object, I think. like... 18:45
m: my $x = *.not; $x.perl.say; say $x(5); say $x(False);
camelia { ... }
False
True
sena_kun m: my $x = *.not; say True ~~ $x; say False ~~ $x; 18:46
camelia False
True
ufobat m: my $test = 1 ~~ 2; my $expect = *.not; if $test ~~ $expect { say "got $test but expected { $expect.perl }"}
camelia got False but expected { ... }
ufobat and this error message sucks
sena_kun ah 18:47
ufobat its fine if the test succeeds, but if not then.. it confuses people
sena_kun I am not sure you can expand it to see the code.
you can replace it with `$expect($test)`, no? 18:48
m: my $test = 1 ~~ 2; my $expect = *.not; if $test ~~ $expect { say "got $test but expected { $expect($test) }"}
camelia got False but expected True
sena_kun like this
if you want something like `expected (1 ~~ 2).not`, then I don't think it's easy. 18:49
ufobat sena_kun, no. WhateverCode is just on possible expectation it could be a string or integer or something 18:50
sena_kun well, then you likely have to special-case it.
ufobat if i could ask if $expect is a whatevercode, then i can if/else around that
can i?
sena_kun why not? 18:51
ufobat m: $x = *.not; $x.WHAT.say
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '$x' is not declared
at <tmp>:1
------> 3<BOL>7⏏5$x = *.not; $x.WHAT.say
ufobat m: my $x = *.not; $x.WHAT.say
camelia (WhateverCode)
ufobat m: my $x = *.not; say $x ~~ WhateverCode
camelia True
sena_kun m: my $x = *.not; $x ~~ WhateverCode ?? 1.say !! 2.say;
camelia 1
ufobat ja
sena_kun m: my $x = *.not; $x !~~ WhateverCode ?? 1.say !! 2.say;
camelia 2
ufobat that helped me a lot! thanks :)
sena_kun yw 18:52
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timotimo ufobat: you can use a "none" junction 19:28
bartolin m: use nqp; class Foo { has Int $!n }; class Bar { has Int $!n }; my $foo = nqp::create(Foo); nqp::bindattr(nqp::decont($foo),Bar,'$!n',42); say nqp::getattr(nqp::decont($foo),Foo,'$!n') 19:32
camelia 42
bartolin ^^ is this supposed to work (using nqp::bindattr with type Bar, even if $foo is of type Foo (only))? 19:33
j: use nqp; class Foo { has Int $!n }; class Bar { has Int $!n }; my $foo = nqp::create(Foo); nqp::bindattr(nqp::decont($foo),Bar,'$!n',42); say nqp::getattr(nqp::decont($foo),Foo,'$!n')
camelia java.lang.RuntimeException: No such attribute '$!n' for this object
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
timotimo yeah, i imagine that's supposed to explode
bartolin Interesting. If I'm not mistaken it works, because try_get_slot (from P6opaque.c) doesn't look at the type of the object at all. 19:38
timotimo quite possible 19:39
masak the `none` junction is my least favorite junction :) 19:41
timotimo oh? 19:42
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bartolin timotimo: to me it looks like we do something similiar in Rat.pm6 (but I might very well be wrong). 19:51
r: use nqp; my $a = FatRat.new(42,5); dd nqp::getattr(nqp::decont($a),Rat,'$!numerator')
camelia java.lang.RuntimeException: No such attribute '$!numerator' for this object
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
 19:52
42
bartolin e.g. in infix:<==> github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...t.pm6#L265
timotimo isn't FatRat derived from Rat? or is the $!numerator from Rational? 20:03
bartolin ah, you're right. $!numerator is from Rational. So the usage in Rat.pm6 should be okay since both Rat and FatRat do Rational. 20:05
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masak timotimo: not by a lot, but... I tend to avoid things with negations in them from the start. I'm also averse to things like `unless` and `until`, except in narrow cases like `next unless ...;` 20:07
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tobs masak: for me that was one of the greatest things when I learned perl. In fact, I've started using "unless" in conversational English only then :) 20:08
masak timotimo: I think among all the hundreds of times I've reached for a junction, the distribution is something like 50% any, 45% all, 5% one, <1% none
tobs: I know quite a lot of people who like it, yes :) 20:09
tobs: I might be mistaken, but I think PBP recommends `if` in favor of `unless`. if so, that might be where I picked it up and then it solidified into Something I Do 20:10
tobs I still remember how confusing the unfamiliar negation was in the beginning. It seems weird now to have found it weird
hmm, I should take a look again, not only because of "unless". The only thing I remember was to not cuddle elses, the rest was less memorable 20:12
masak I've not cuddled elses since, to many linters' dismay :)
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tobs my great grandmother was named Else, so I was skeptical of that rule at first 20:15
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leont My ex is called Else, no cuddling for me! 20:55
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tbrowder o/ #perl6 21:20
lucs Hiya 21:23
21:26 drolax left
lucs Hmm... I think I'd like to have a $foo thing and an array of them (so, plural) @foo's; it's perfect and unambiguous to distinguish singular/plural, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the unfortunate "plural's" kind of spelling :) 21:26
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lucs (I'm already using the underscore in a meta-syntactic way, e.g., $d_home, $d_new-prj, … with the d_ prefix meaning "directory") 21:28
hahainternet but ' is not for pluralising 21:30
it denotes ownership or a missed letter
"@foos" is correct grammar for "many instances of foo" 21:31
lucs: fwiw, if you use a prefix to mean something, use a type instead
types are enforced by the language instead of you, and provide real meaning rather than meaning to you 21:32
lucs Um, they _are_ meaning for me, the reader of the code.
hahainternet right, but they provide no meaning to the program
so if you accidentally do $d_home = $f_something
lucs That doesnt' matter (in this case)
hahainternet you might accidentally assign a file to something you think is a directory
if they had different types however, the compiler would warn you you had done this, or prevent it entirely 21:33
lucs I understand, but it turns out that I'm okay with that (in what I'm currently doing).
hahainternet your choice ☺ 21:34
tbrowder i’m porting some p5 code to p6 incrementally. in the process, i want a p6 script to use a p6 module that i transform in a BEGIN block. i can easily write the transformation, but the p5 module may have been updated since the p6 script was last run, so, being lazy, i want to have my updated p6 module provided by the same script that uses it. reading the docs i see that may be impossible, but is there a way to do it? i can get
the begin block to run the transformation code, but i haven’t yet been able to add the “use p6-module” in the file scope without error.
lucs Yeah :) I love it
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lucs tbrowder: Could 'require' be put to use for this? 21:38
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tbrowder i tried “require ::($module-name)” but i got an error that the mod couldn’t be found 21:41
lucs I've had trouble getting 'require' to do my bidding in Perl6, but it's probably just me being dumb. 21:42
Someone here might know how to do this.
tbrowder: Um, you probably checked this, but is the file findable with PERL6LIB or something? 21:43
tbrowder i’m not sure that would help, and i probably didn’t describe the issue any more. something like. this: 21:47
BEGIN { # code to transform ‘m.pm’ to ‘m.pm6’ } use m; # more regular code using module ‘m’ 21:49
that’s what i want to do
El_Che use is also BEGIN I thought 21:52
where do you put the require? outside the BEGIN block? 21:53
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lucs tbrowder: This works, maybe you can tweak it to your needs: 22:06
BEGIN { "/tmp/Foo.pm6".IO.spurt: "class Foo is export \{ method foo \{ 42 } }" }; use lib '/tmp'; use Foo; Foo.new.foo.say;
evalable6 42
lucs Hey, thanks evalable6.
tbrowder lucs: great, thanks, i’ll give it a shot! 22:08
cronus_ hello. I'm trying to use rakudo on win32. it does not properly print any unicode characters. Is there something wrong with my build or is it something known for windows built? 22:13
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cronus_ i've built it from source 22:14
SmokeMachine m: say Mu.ACCEPTS: Set.HOW 22:16
camelia True
moritz cronus_: most likely your terminal isn't configured to use UTF-8
cronus_ moritz: i'm usng windows powershell. I don't think i can configure it to use utf8. 22:17
moritz: can I?
jast it may be worth trying to run it from the classic windows console (cmd.exe) and see if it's different there 22:19
moritz dunno, not much of a window expert :/
jast (I know essentially nothing about powershell, this is just information gathering really)
cronus_ jast: tried that, also with cmd /u. still same. using say i get Malformed UTF-8 at line 1 col 6 22:20
jast when running what?
cronus_ say 'γεια' 22:21
evalable6 γεια
jast oh, in the REPL?
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cronus_ jast: yes 22:21
jast yeah, probably your console(s) are configured with a different codepage, and it's probably not a good idea to wildly change it around 22:22
you *can* change the default but it might break some windows utilities
apparently, to do it temporarily in cmd.exe, enter this command: "chcp 65001" 22:23
cronus_ jast: yes but not to utf8. it is not supported by windows
jast something close to UTF-8, at least :)
according to microsoft docs, code page 65001 is UTF-8 22:24
El_Che maybe it's MSUTF-8 22:25
same same but incompatible 22:26
leont CESU-8?
cronus_ jast: just tried it. i can't even type unicode on this terminal anymore....
leont A lot of windows stuff does that :-/
jast bah - well at least it's supposedly temporary
tbrowder lucs: i will finish my code the hard way first (2 separate progs) and then try your unified method. if that is good, i think it is worth using your example in the docs for sure! 22:28
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cronus_ is there an irc channel for moar? 22:30
timotimo yes, there is
it's #moarvm
cronus_ timotimo: thanks
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lucs tbrowder: Great, best of luck! 22:31
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El_Che tyil: can you make cpan-p6 output less yellow/bright? It looks like a highlight. 23:21
zachk it's green to me 23:22
El_Che greenish-yellow
timotimo it's regular green on my machine 23:23
El_Che yeah, it depends on the colourscheme of your terminal
zachk or gui irc client 23:25
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timotimo probably also a little bit on the color profile you've set up for your monitor 23:25
also (or including) having f.lux/redshift/whatever turned on
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guifa How does one get newlines to be rendered in an output block for pod? I tried just new lines and also adding in a \n but neither work 23:32
yoleaux 25 Jan 2019 17:06Z <SmokeMachine> guifa: the =~~ operator is a great idea!
timotimo i think it depends on the kind of block you're using 23:33
it has to be one that's "verbatim" or something like that
guifa Output causes it to be done all on one line. Verbatim provides for line wrap, but neither do line breaks 23:36
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SmokeMachine m: class CX::A does X::Control {}; CONTROL { when CX::A { .resume } }; CX::A.new.throw 23:49
camelia Cannot find method 'sink': no method cache and no .^find_method
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
SmokeMachine is that expected? ^^
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