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Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
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Elronnd what on earth does this error message mean? "Native call expected return type with CPointer, CStruct, CArray, or VMArray representation, but got a P6opaque (Int)" 00:38
when calling this function sub make_vectors(num32 $w, num32 $h, num32 $dist, size_t $num-tris is rw) returns OpaquePointer is native("stronghold") { . 00:39
.. };
I also tried with Pointer instead of OpaquePointer
Xliff_ Means that one of your parameters is a Perl6 integer and not int32, uint32, int64 or uint64 00:41
Those MUST be converted before they can be used in an NC call.
So you should use "returns Pointer" instead of OpaquePointer becuse it's ...well... dying. 00:42
Elrond: ^^
Er... Elronnd ^^ 00:43
Elronnd yes
I have tried with returns Pointer
I call it like this my $verts = make_vectors(nativecast(num32, $w), nativecast(num32, $h), nativecast(num32, $dist), $num-verts);
where $num-verts was just declared with my size_t $num-verts
Xliff_ Oooh! No.
Elronnd err
my uint32 $num-verts
Xliff_ Are $w, $h, $dist Pointers? 00:44
Elronnd no
shouldn't be
Xliff_ Also, check $num-verts. Make sure its int32
Elronnd uint32; is that ok?
Geth_ ¦ problem-solving: AlexDaniel assigned to jnthn Issue where blocks vs sub signatures github.com/perl6/problem-solving/issues/24
Elronnd also tried to initialize it—my uint32 $num-verts = 0; same result
Xliff_ OK. Then THAT is fine. 00:45
So, I assume $w, $h and $dist are just normal perl6 containers?
Elronnd yah
just ints
Xliff_ You will want to validate and place them into the proper native type.
I have code to do that. Feel free to crib, just give me a mention. :) 00:46
github.com/Xliff/p6-GtkPlus/blob/m.../Utils.pm6
So before your call to make_vectors, you don't even need THAT for floating point.
Just add "my num32 ($ww, $hh, $dd) = ($w, $h, $dist); 00:47
Elronnd hmmm
looks like it ends up at real-resolve-uint64, and that doesn't seem to be declared anywhere?
Xliff_ Then: "my $verts = make_vectors($ww, $hh, $dd, $num-verts);"
Elronnd why doesn't it work as-is, though? 00:48
$w, $h, and $dist are already num32, though
Xliff_ real-resolve-uint64 is used elsewhere so had to be abstracted out. It's basically: "($ru +& 0xffffffffffffffff)"
If you are SURE they are num32 already, then drop the nativecast calls. 00:49
Elronnd same error, though
Xliff_ "my $verts = make_vectors($w, $h, $dist, $num-verts);"
Elronnd yes
Xliff_ Then either $w, $h, or $dist is not a num32 00:50
They may be Cool! But that's a P6Opaque.
Elronnd "my num32 $w = 1280e0; my num32 $h = 720e0; my num32 $dist = 15e0;"
Xliff_ Hmm....
Got a full code listing? 00:51
m: my num32 $w = 1280e0; my num32 $h = 720e0; my num32 $dist = 15e0;
camelia ( no output )
Xliff_ Yep! Nums.
Check $num-verts
Elronnd ix.io/1Is7/perl6
Xliff_ Are sdl and rng part of SDL2? 00:53
Aaand... that's not compiling. 00:54
Elronnd sdl yes, rng no
one sec, I can push the code and send you the whole thing
Xliff_ OK.
Elronnd github.com/Elronnd/elvenstronghold 00:55
go into 'c' and run make, then go into the top-level and run the 'es' script
might need to override CC to not-clang if you don't have clang 00:56
Xliff_ Installing it now.
Does libstronghold need to be moved anywhere?
Elronnd shouldn't 00:59
Xliff_ scripts/fetch-libs.sh: line 72: check-checksums: command not found
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Elronnd uhh 01:00
that's weird
really weird
I would just delete lines 72-76 of that script
Xliff_ What distro are you running? 01:01
That sounds like it comes from a package. Can't find it in Ubuntu
Elronnd it doesn't come from a package, it's a function I wrote in that file
also it's called _before_ line 72, and apparently that wasn't an error 01:02
Xliff_ Fixed. You may want to check what you pushed. It came over here as "heck_checksums"
That COULD have been me, though. %)
Elronnd ;} 01:03
yah upstream looks like it has the c github.com/Elronnd/ElvenStronghold...ibs.sh#L72
Xliff_ OK, then! Moving along.
This type cannot unbox to a native integer: P6opaque, Num 01:04
Elronnd yes
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Xliff_ # From Xliff... 01:15
multi sub resolve-uint($ru) is export {
$ru +& 0xffffffff;
}
multi resolve-uint(*@ru) is export {
@ru.map({ samewith($_) });
}
Oops.
Cannot locate native library '/home/cbwood/Other Projects/elvenstronghold/p/libstronghold.so': /home/cbwood/Other Projects/elvenstronghold/p/libstronghold.so: undefined symbol: alloc
17: 0000000000000000 0 NOTYPE GLOBAL DEFAULT UND alloc 01:17
^^ Not in libstronghold.so
Elronnd wat 01:18
that's weird
I _have_ been testing under windows, because linux doesn't work on my box, but I don't _think_ that would break 01:19
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Elronnd also, is there a resolve-num anywhere? Or is that needed? 01:19
Xliff_ Not needed since you only need to assign via my. 01:20
my num32 = $p6num
my num32 $n32 = $p6num
Same with double and num64
Elronnd hmmm 01:21
why _do_ you need that with ints then?
Xliff_ Because I want to isolate against overflow.
Perl and BigInts are a thing.
Elronnd ahh
anyway if you do a git pull the alloc thing should be fixed 01:23
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Xliff_ Hrm. 01:27
clang barfed at me.
Elronnd oops
fixed
Xliff_ Clang barfed at me again. 01:28
paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/OHK9...NBQ740unzg
Elronnd that doesn't load for me 01:29
Xliff_ What are you using? 01:30
Elronnd nvm, got it
Xliff_ Yes... I forgot the 'r'
Elronnd oh...hah 01:31
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Elronnd anyway, that should be fixed 01:34
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Xliff_ Segfault, now. 01:46
blit_verts 01:47
I'll send you a diff and you can work it from there.
Elronnd: ^^
Elronnd: paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/ACwN...9HUp3KB0CQ 01:50
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Elronnd Xliff_: thank you so much! 02:57
one question, why Num() instead of Num? 02:58
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Xliff_ Num() is the equivalent of writing Num(Any), which attempts to coerce the parameter to Num before its use. 02:59
Elronnd ahhh ok 03:00
Xliff_ So...
sub a ($a) { $a.Num; ... }
Acturally...
sub a ($a) { $a .= Num; ... }
Hope its working for you!
Elronnd I was busy, so just applying the diff now 03:01
but hopefully it works!
Xliff_ It will segfault
So you will need to check your calls to blit_verts
Make sure you aren't sending something like NULL
Elronnd actually it's not segfaulting for me 03:02
Xliff_ Lucky bastard! :)
Elronnd (also not working properly, but I'll figure that out later)
Xliff_ OK. Good luck!
Elronnd well I probably still did something wrong but the memory randomly happens to be fine
Xliff_ stronghold.c:1:1: error: ISO C requires a translation unit to contain at least one declaration [-Werror,-Wempty-translation-unit] 03:05
WTF?
Elronnd wat 03:07
Xliff_ Yeah!
Elronnd what version of clang are you using? 03:08
Xliff_ No. My stornghold.c is empty. 03:09
Fixed it.
Elronnd is there a problem with your git?
it corrupted the lib-fetching script too
Xliff_ More like my local repo
No. *I* did that.
Elronnd huh 03:10
that is really weird
Xliff_ Segfaults here:
#3 0x00007fffef3be3b7 in blit_verts (state=0x5555598ec890, num_tris=2380) at fbnice.c:51 03:11
51 glDrawArrays(GL_TRIANGLES, 0, num_tris * 3); // 3 points per triangl
Elronnd wait—you can debug code you call with nativecall?
Xliff_ Kinda. 03:12
I use perl-gdb-m to diagnose segfaults.
Elronnd anyway I bet that's because I'm asking for more triangles to be drawn than are actually in the array
Xliff_ I had to recompile libstronghold.so with -g
Yeah... that would do it.
Elronnd ahh, figured out the segfault (probably) 03:17
I was allocating an array of vecs, not triangles, so it was a third the size it needed to be 03:18
Xliff_ \o/ 03:21
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jmerelo releasable6: status 05:25
releasable6 jmerelo, Next release will happen when it's ready. 1 blocker. 132 out of 292 commits logged (⚠ 2 warnings)
jmerelo, Details: gist.github.com/d5f8f5a43486b841c0...890e49b7ba
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Geth_ doc/master: 4 commits pushed by (JJ Merelo)++ 05:44
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atroxaper Hello, #perl6 ! 05:59
jmerelo: do you know about problem with test-perl6 docker container already? travis-ci.org/atroxaper/p6-LogP6-W...r-Journald 06:00
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zaucker whois lizmat 06:46
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antoniog1miz it would be nice if a message appears each time someone ask a question about perl6 in stackoverflow 06:49
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jmerelo atroxaper: yesterday I recompiled the whole set. Can you please check again and if it does not work, raise an issue? 06:51
antoniog1miz: I just keep consulting it over and over... But if you want to create an IRC bot for that, feel free :-) 06:52
atroxaper jmerelo: checking...
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antoniog1miz jmerelo: maybe I will 06:54
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tyil weekly: pleroma.tyil.nl/notice/9icryMpmOfUJOpsIAC 07:01
notable6 tyil, Noted!
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fz join #freenode 07:24
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antoniog1miz duckmap is quite amazing 07:56
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holyghost hello 09:02
I might be in on a second Ph. D position this afternoon
I have an appointment at 13h
I will keep working for perl6 one day a week 09:03
eventually
I alreayd have a Ph.D in quantum thermodynamics and game theory
s/alreayd/already 09:05
the tpoic is random forest neural networks 09:06
s/tpoic/topic
I know ANNs since 1997
We still have to decide on the research topic 09:08
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holyghost It'd be medical intormation systems so I have my healer class upgraded :-) 09:08
random forests in the sense of destroying cancers in one's brain with a beam 09:09
antoniog1miz hi!
holyghost hi
s/abrain/body and brain 09:11
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El_Che holyghost: good luck! Is it a funded position? 09:14
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holyghost no 09:15
I havce money on my own for it
basically it's about bio-statistics 09:16
computational statistics, so I can program
I downloaded several books on statistics and ANNs yesterday at my cafe
thanks fo the 'good luck !' :-) 09:17
I scimmed AFAIK on cafe
s/fo/for 09:18
I earn some money from brussels pm
then I'm funded myself for the rest 09:19
I want to program scheme/lisp and C++ for it
maybe some perl6 but it depends on what my promotor wants
El_Che ah nice
which university? 09:20
holyghost VUB
campus Jette
El_Che ah not far :)
holyghost you know El_Che
I'm in BISI then
medical CS
I have to take the train to Jette 09:21
El_Che interesting
holyghost UZ Jette
anyway I'm off within an hour 09:22
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El_Che a nice challange! 09:22
talks their socks off
-s
holyghost indeed, I hope to elevate my healer class
I wanted to do a BSD kernel for their beam machine 09:23
with software
software in the sense that they'd load scheme/lisp programs on it 09:24
I'll talk their socks off :-)
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holyghost I'll tell you everything when I get back 09:26
I hope I can write some perl6/perl5 for data analysis of the beaming machine 09:27
perl5 would be better for slurping files of data, or does perl6 cope ? 09:28
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holyghost Then I'll have to get the whole doctor's syndicate to supply on open source software :-) 09:30
Woodi hi #perl6 09:35
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Woodi holyghost: I think perl5 is already well established in genetics works however it was some time ago 09:36
holyghost hi Woodi
Woodi holyghost: GL :)
holyghost I know
Larry put out a book "beginning perl for bioinformatics" AFAIK 09:37
thanks Woodi :-)
It's perl5 anyhow
It's perl5 anyhowI'm just somewhat ill on what they want with the perl5 development next to perl6 09:38
I hope Larry, Randall and Christiaensen will still support it 09:39
Tom I mean
He once fielded me with a permutation class for anamgrams 09:40
3 lines of perl5 for an anagram system 09:41
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holyghost hi Manifest0 09:41
woolfy holyghost : That book was not by larry Wall, but by James Tisdall: shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596000806.do 09:42
holyghost I'm talking about programming perl 2nd O'Reilly
Woodi holyghost: if research needed it then use C++ - first: be professional with humans brains :)
holyghost Woodi : ok
I want to develop something which helps out with medical patients 09:43
woolfy By the same author: "Mastering Perl for Bioinformatics": shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596003074.do
holyghost right, I've read it, went through it
It depends on several informatics of GAs 09:44
woolfy And by now, "Programming Perl" is in its 4th edition: shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596004927.do
holyghost I have that one also
I got it for Christmass 2 years ago
woolfy And I think Larry Wall only marginally contributed to that one, most of the work was done (I would not mind being corrected there) by Tom Christiansen and Jon Orwant. 09:45
holyghost It's somewhat basics in GA (genetic algorithms) theory
I hope they'll get a second edition for it 09:46
IT's per lfrom the 90ies
woolfy holyghost : I thought I would correct you there. larry Wall is not involved in bioinformatics. And anybody promoting the second edition of "Programming Perl" needs to be told that that is quite an old edition, and the 4th edition is much more modern (even though it's a bit outdated now as well).
holyghost sure 09:47
woolfy And I am still hoping for a soon-ish release of "Programming Perl 6" by Larry Wall.
holyghost indeed
El_Che holyghost: I don't think that promoting Perl 5 for a research position will help you perception-wise, sadly
holyghost That's also what I'd b egrateful to
El_Che : What do you mean ? 09:48
El_Che That academia moved on from Perl 5 long ago
holyghost right I understand
El_Che it's a good skill to have, certainly 09:49
holyghost I just thought ANNs should be developed in scheme/lisp
El_Che but not a skill that sells well
holyghost right
woolfy holyghost : if you need a more modern book about bioinformatics, you might want to check out this: bixsolutions.net/
El_Che being a polyglot looks good on the resumé, though 09:50
holyghost woolfy : ok
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holyghost I once wrote amigablast, a bLAST algorithm 09:50
woolfy This also seems quite modern: www.amazon.com/Bioinformatics-Data...449367372/ 09:51
holyghost I'll take a look later on
woolfy : it'd be theorethical progress on ANNs for random forests 09:52
my prof works out the math, I do the programminf
s/programminf/programming
random forests are fractals, random fractals
El_Che (train arrived, bbl)
holyghost El_Che : ok 09:53
woolfy holyghost : that sounds nice. Also, just don't take the books on themselves, also search for the errata pages, and online comments. Books can get outdated, and authors (and publishers) can make mistakes. The different bioinformatics books seem to be no different.
holyghost woolfy : ok 09:55
woolfy : there's so many books to download I can read, but I need to read them 09:57
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holyghost random forest ANNs would be about ANNs to start with AFAIK 09:58
I need to cope with the bioinformatics though
My master thesis was bout embryological GAs 09:59
evolutionary and so on
anyway, I'm nervous for my appointment, I'm not that good in explainging stuff 10:00
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holyghost hi noisegul 10:01
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holyghost Woodi : I've looked up your 2 books, I'll download them later on 10:07
I have an M$ surface as a pad, I'll download later on 10:08
I just keep it for games as a UNIX wizard
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holyghost mastering perl for bioinformatics, I might as well write a book for perl6 on that ;-) 10:12
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holyghost I'm off, wish me luck 10:23
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holyghost For my second Ph. D, my promtor said he needs to contact the head of the exams commission 12:01
s/promtor/promotor
So I guess, really, that it's a no
Apparently, you cannot do a second Ph.D in Belgium 12:02
except he said, maybe at the medical sciences faculty
in plcae of the exact sciences
s/plcae/place 12:03
I don't know really, but I think he didn't like me good enough for it :-) 12:04
he;ll send me mail tommorrow or next week
MidCheck hello, how do I return images or files? I recently built my first website using Perl6. And I chose the Bailadador, but I don't know how to use it to return images or files. I tried some methods but can't work. what shoud I do? 12:11
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sena_kun MidCheck, you probably want to serve static files, see github.com/Bailador/perl6-Bailador...gin-Static maybe? 12:13
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sena_kun ah, it says Bailador now includes Bailador::Route::StaticFile in core 12:13
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sena_kun MidCheck, see github.com/Bailador/Bailador/tree/...-dirpair-x 12:15
tyil is there a way to get the name of the module inside of that module? ie, module Foo { sub Bar is export () { say "how can I get the name of the module, Foo, from in here?" } } 12:16
MidCheck okay, i will try it now, thank you 12:17
sena_kun tyil, $?MODULE?
lizmat m: module Foo { dd $?MODULE.^name } 12:18
camelia "Foo"
sena_kun m: module Foo { sub Bar is export { say $?MODULE } }
camelia ( no output )
sena_kun m: module Foo { sub Bar is export { say $?MODULE } }; Foo::Bar;
camelia Could not find symbol '&Bar'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
sena_kun ugh, you get the idea
tyil sena_kun: yes, that seems to work 12:19
thanks!
sena_kun lizmat++ for being faster. :)
and more correct~
tyil more correct is always nice tbh 12:20
masak even nicer than faster in some ways :P 12:23
tyil when it comes to write code that I intend to keep around, I generally prefer clean and correct code over speed 12:24
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discord6 <Vendethiel> But how will you feel superior to others if they can understand the code you wrote? 12:44
timotimo by posting hatefully on hacker news, of course
discord6 <Vendethiel> .oO( as opposed to posting how on hacker news? ) 12:45
hahainternet as an aside, god HN is just so bad 12:48
usually all the top comments on any contentious thread are just propaganda now
timotimo if your forum becomes big and you don't strictly moderate, i guess it'll become a "target" 12:49
hahainternet the latter point is key
you have to actively curate your groups, removing the worst elements 12:50
i think a big part of why perl 6 is usually ignored is that tech is now consumed by memes
timotimo aye, taking the Geek Social Fallacies, especially the one - you know which one, as a starting point is probably a good idea 12:51
hahainternet i browse /r/programming threads and it's just post after post that's total nonsense but sounds vaguely plausible
having said that, /r/programminglanguages (i think) where raiph hangs around is pretty solid and raiph does an excellent job
timotimo i enjoy consuming memes and shitposts, though it's probably quite important that it's usually very well separated
from other stuff i mean 12:52
hahainternet it's not the memes being posted, but being thought that are the problem
all of us cargo cult to some degree
but imo it's getting really bad of late
timotimo oh, ok
hahainternet so, try finding a systemd thread that isn't consumed with hate
timotimo i hear you 12:53
hahainternet or the furore over article 11/13, where for months an MEP was posting literal fake news
but it was spread around the tech community like a virus, uncritically repeating "LINK TAX LINK TAX!"
it's part of why i enjoy the philosophy of perl 6
there's very little effort to keep a belief in things that aren't true, and a lot more focus on finding out what is actually true 12:54
the current second top thread in /r/programming is about google introducing <portal> vs <iframe>, the only accurate post is literally the bottom post in the thread, at 0 points 12:55
every single other post is accusing google of trying to take over the web and trying to cripple firefox
out of 42 posts, 3 have accurate information 12:56
timotimo oh, i haven't heard of portal yet
hahainternet anyway that's the problem that faces our industry
everyone is so convinced they're right because they have a bunch of memes they can repeat to themselves
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hahainternet anyway it's basically just a remix on iframes timotimo that work as a 'next page' element too 12:57
timotimo oh, interesting. so you can basically transition from your current page to what you had in the portal?
hahainternet google are big on trying to ensure you can pre-load (via http push ideally) every asset for the page you're navigating to, and the next page after that
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hahainternet yeah exactly 12:57
timotimo yeah, that's a good user experience target, isn't it?
hahainternet it is, and most of what they've been working on recently goes towards it
QUIC was very specifically for this sort of thing, and AMP includes many parts of it too 12:58
timotimo AMP hasn't impressed me very much, tbh
hahainternet i don't know how much it needs to impress
it's quite functional
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timotimo suddenly everything you read comes from a .google.com domain no matter who made it :P 12:58
hahainternet timotimo: they have sorted that but it needed a browser extension 12:59
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hahainternet you can now sign your amp content and chrome will display it under your domain 12:59
timotimo oh? odd.
hahainternet amp.dev/documentation/guides-and-t...d-exchange
(also fwiw bing and cloudflare have amp inbound proxies too, not just google, but fair comment) 13:00
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timotimo OK 13:00
when is amperl6.org
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hahainternet rent the bandwidth and soemeone will write it :D 13:01
timotimo i can absolutely not afford this :)
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hahainternet that's what makes me laugh about people who hate on amp using a caching CDN 13:01
i argued with someone who told me it was deceptive to display the domain instead of amp.google.com or whatever, but never answered me if i asked if it's deceptive that www.reddit.com is on fastly's webservers 13:02
or the hundreds of thousands of sites on cloudflare
anyway morning rant from me
tired of communities that care about clicks and drama vs what is actually real
timotimo morning coffee? nah, screw that. morning rant!
hahainternet i have a tea here too :)
timotimo that's the tea, my friend
hahainternet i just despair at the state of our industry 13:03
timotimo it has people in it, that's the problem ;) ;)
hahainternet too pithy :)
timotimo puny mortals
hahainternet i think we should aspire to be like structural engineers
our news sites should be peer reviewed before publication 13:04
retractions should be extremely important and listed front and centre
this is all a bit naive really because it assumes people are capable of admitting when they're wrong, which few of us can reliably
timotimo i'm certainly not good at that 13:05
i can imagine why others would also not be good at that
hahainternet it's why anonymous peer review is effective
cause you don't have to admit you're wrong, you get told "you're wrong, no publish"
and you can't go attacking the reviewer, cause you have no idea who they are
timotimo i imagine something like that would easily be drowned in trolling 13:06
hahainternet i think it depends on the audience 13:07
if you're looking to peer review reddit type links & maybe a sentence of commentary, yeah probably
but if you insisted that you must only post links with two paragraphs minimum of explanation and perspective 13:08
that would be more reasonable imho
a friend of mine tried to make a site like this years ago, but the problem is that ultimately you need an arbiter of truth
some group to say what is or isn't true, cause i can't prove the earth is round with 0s and 1s
timotimo yeah, even for things that are "obviously true" or "obviously false" you can easily be wrong anyway 13:09
hahainternet yes, are you aware most (if not all) nosql systems violate the laws of physics?
sounds obviously false right? but i assert that is true
it doesn't 'break the laws' in the sense of doing something unphysical, but builds its rules on an errant understanding of those laws 13:10
timotimo interesting. and clearly a clickbaity way to express that idea :)
hahainternet yep, but bombastic statements tend to be judged 'clearly true' or false much more readily 13:11
anyway this is all going nowhere
but i have decided to try and build something useful over the next month or two
timotimo agreed on that
hahainternet and for a year or so now i've been wondering what DSL could be used to describe computers so that we can understand truth more easily 13:12
timotimo i don't know what that is supposed to mean :)
hahainternet it's hard to even describe, i've been working on that part for months 13:13
tl;dr: If you write some code, how do you know you're not asking it to do something impossible?
if you write to an area of memory from multiple threads, how do you know you need to synchronise access to it?
timotimo ah, so a little bit like agda/coq and friends? 13:14
hahainternet on one end we have rules taught to us and explained rationally, 'you must synchronise or X will happen'
and on the other end you have code, which is often not statically analysable
yes a little like that, think more like Dhall
timotimo i don't know dhall yet
hahainternet and a question of 'how turing complete do things actually need to be'
it's a guaranteed-to-terminate config language
timotimo oh, interesting 13:15
hahainternet the question that nags at me is: how turing complete do things need to be, is there anything between my keyboard and you seeing these words that requires turing completeness? 13:16
(the answer is primarily: questions of unbound complexity, such as how many nodes are in this linked list) 13:17
well, complexity wrong term, 'runtime' maybe
timotimo mhm
hahainternet linked lists can be circular, and so naive algorithms don't halt
so, can you write a language where it can tell you "If pointer 'next' visits a previous item, this function call will not terminate"
thus requiring you to write an algorithm which must halt 13:18
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Woodi hahainternet: maybe we need to s/objects/state machines/ in some places at least. and then using s.m. as we use varibles now :) 13:45
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hahainternet Woodi: state machines are an excellent and massively underused tool, but there's some unsolvable problems here too 13:51
Woodi: if you have a linked list, and you want to count the number of elements with a script, you must either know the maximum length it could possibly ever be, or write a function with recursion / an infinite loop
you can't guarantee the latter will halt, and iterating a list while also checking the pointer doesn't point to any previously visited nodes is way less efficient in CPU and RAM 13:52
Woodi hahainternet: look like you "upgradeing" problem in during the transit :) problem is: count list and in the middle you add cyclical list... 13:55
hahainternet exactly
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Woodi hahainternet: I think thing need to be started with spec and every differen problem should have their own implementation. or few, interchengable 13:59
hahainternet Woodi: the problem is that you can't verify the spec without having the same problems 14:00
Woodi hahainternet: you can. :) I saw few implementations of linked lists and strlen(char *str) works too :) but you probably talking from different point of view :) 14:01
hahainternet Woodi: those are all turing complete, you can't guarantee they halt
Woodi hahainternet: what if you have not-cyclic and finished data ? then thing halt 14:02
sena_kun hahainternet, are you sure it is solveable in the first place? I mean, there is a Gödel's incompleteness above this all. I am not a math person in any way, just unsure what you are trying to achieve. Also I am not really sure that infinite execution is the worst bug that exists in IT too. 14:03
hahainternet Woodi: you can't prove the data is not-cyclic before you compile the program
sena_kun: the key here is that this isn't a 'general purpose' solution 14:04
godels just tells you that you can't implement all algorithms and know all truths with a limited set of tools (ok bad explanaion)
i'm interested in how many of our 'common' problems don't require turing completeness, and therefore don't have the halting problem
sena_kun hahainternet, have you contacted your local CS PhD group in the nearest top-ranking university? :) 14:05
hahainternet sena_kun: they're not really interested unless you're a student 14:06
and i can't afford £27,000+ to get the answer to this question
Woodi hahainternet: not true. you read() portion of data and coun it by chopping a bit. how it can not halt ? for veryfing you need to choose data representation that allow to finish veryfication. then you can interpret chopped bits with smarter, cyclical semantics 14:07
hahainternet Woodi: that is at 'runtime', if you are doing the checks then, it costs you memory and CPU cycles, which is why people don't do it
you need to be able to handle these datastructures at 'compile' time
sena_kun: fwiw i asked around a large, internationally known R&D department to get thoughts on this, and literally nobody cared 14:08
they were only interested in the latest javascript frameworks, i wish i was kidding
sena_kun hahainternet, well, as I said, infinite execution is not the top issue in IT right now. It is, in fact, pretty rare. When it comes to concurrency, locks appear, but that's another issue with another set of solutions. 14:09
hahainternet sena_kun: the problem is not infinite execution, but the core concept of static analysis being limited by the halting problem
you can't statically analyse a lot of programs because they arbitrarily modify memory based on input 14:10
Woodi hahainternet: from some meta-magic math :) like Godel's one :) : there is proved, that in every language you can produce paradoxes. to resolve paradox you need meta-language over that language. then you need meta-meta-language, etc :)
hahainternet but even strict functional programs don't meet htese criteria
only 'total functional programming' programs do, and they have the above problems i listed w/recursion
Woodi: i thought it was proven that you can say things that you can't prove are true or false, not that you can't build something without paradoxes 14:11
isn't ZFC supposed to be a paradox free set-theory construction, for example?
i'm definitely not a pure mathematician or number theorist :p
Woodi don't ask me :) probably not :)
hahainternet anyhow this is what i want to learn, but god it's dificult 14:12
Woodi !wiki Tarski
hahainternet i think banach tarski isn't a 'true' paradox 14:13
just seems confusing
i can't say that with authority though :p
tobs I for one think it is paradoxical :) 14:14
but not contradictory
Woodi such things finished "modernism" :) 14:15
you know, in XIX scientists thinked just some calculations errors left :) 14:16
and then communism and other ideologies was constucted... 14:17
tobs I've been (trying to find to for) reading about Descriptive Complexity Theory. As far as I know, the theory understands computation complexity by expressiveness of formal languages. 14:20
There's a whole load of equivalences between complexity classes and logical formalisms sub-Turing. You might be interested in that, hahainternet. 14:21
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hahainternet tobs: honestly as it stands i lack the formal education to understand the papers discussing this stuff 14:22
so i've been trying to slowly ease myself into type theory
but even remembering formal logic is difficult, i'm getting older and older and dumber and dumber
pmurias hahainternet: re requires turing completeness the answer is no
hahainternet pmurias: for what problem?
pmurias hahainternet: re "between my keyboard and you seeing those words" 14:24
hahainternet pmurias: oh, well the network it traverses is a cyclic graph
so that's not strictly true
pmurias hahainternet: strictly speaking all tasks that can be computed under say 2 hours (or any arbitrary length of time)
hahainternet the transport algorithm is recursive
and there are TTLs hardcoded in packets
pmurias can be done without turing completeness
hahainternet which limits the size of the graph
that's specifically what i'm trying to avoid 14:25
(broadcasts don't have usable TTLs, and so broadcast storms are a real effect)
Woodi hahainternet: you throw more and more "variables" onto yourself :) so that become managable like chaos theory 14:28
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jmerelo hi! 16:10
releasable6: status
releasable6 jmerelo, Next release will happen when it's ready. 1 blocker. 132 out of 304 commits logged (⚠ 2 warnings)
jmerelo, Details: gist.github.com/01c3f9f971e41b57a3...b36424773f
jmerelo Doesn't look like it's going to be ready any time soon. This hasn't changed for the last few days. Anyone knows what's going on?
AlexDaniel jmerelo: just check perl6-dev sometimes :) colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...2019-05-09 16:12
Xliff \o 16:13
holyghost hello
jmerelo AlexDaniel: Ah, OK.
holyghost my promotor doesn't want me to work out the random forest neural networks
but I can being at campus Jette VUB as a postodc since I alreayd have a Ph.D 16:14
s/being/begin
jmerelo holyghost: congrats
holyghost Cheers!
thanks JJ
Xliff holyghost++
holyghost I'm happy :-)
Xliff You should be!
holyghost I will elevate my healer class although
He just said "postdoc", I don;t know what I have to do :-) 16:15
I'm going to promote perl6 but need to program perl5, scheme, lisp and C++ for it 16:16
jmerelo mildly proud for my third position in the CS Faculty "chef" prize for this: www.flickr.com/photos/atalaya/4689...ateposted/ (out of 5)
holyghost I'll try to defend the ANNs
anyway, I still have to sign my contract at campus Jette 16:17
Jette is the university hospital of Brussels in Belgium
It's in the north of Brussels 16:18
I need to get there by train though, I live at the SOFT lab of the VUB (vub.ac.be)
I'll try to send out a day of perl6 programming :-)
s/a day/a day a week 16:19
That I cannot work on random forest ANNs I find a pity
anyway I'm not certain what I have to do
he was a bit vague
The prof of math faculty supports me though, I think 16:20
but medicin man are no math teachers
I need to get them into AI
therefrom scheme and lisp 16:21
it's for their cancer beam machines
although I cannot work everything my promotor said
I'll manage with writing programs for the UZ Jette (Uni hospital) 16:22
anyway, I'm feasting :-)
I have 3 contracts then, SOFT, pm Brussels and VUB campus Jette
I need to talk to Larry whether he can help out 16:23
I've send my (old) promotor a mail with the fact that I still need to need to be accepted at Jette with a contract
Anyway, my healer's class will go up then 16:24
Cheers!
I'll shut up now :-)
postdoc, here I come :-)
For those who didn't look above, I have a Ph.D in quantum thermodynamics, game theory and gfx 16:25
I'm going to get myself a beer :-)
holyghost drinks at perl6's sante
sante == health 16:26
Xliff You deserve one! Have a pint on me! :) 16:27
holyghost I will, Xliffie :-)
holyghost has put on his 90ies music 16:30
I hope they'll give me a desk at campus Jette 16:32
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holyghost I need to get something done out of my onw appartment 16:33
s/onw/own
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holyghost I don't know if I'll use a fedora or netbsd box 16:33
netbsd == GNU/BSD
Ken's BSD 16:34
anyway, I'll try to shut up with you guys and galls
I hope me and them'll manage 16:35
Xliff
.oO( Did he just call me "Xliffie"? )
 16:38
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Xliff holyghost: (⋋▂⋌) ... don't do that again! 16:39
(╯°□°）╯︵ (\ .o.)\ 16:40
holyghost ok 16:42
no Xliffies anymore then :-) 16:43
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holyghost He just sent another mail that matlab is better than my informatics 16:50
for data analysis 16:51
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Geth_ doc: kjkuan++ created pull request #2774:
Clarify that assigning a Seq to an Array consumes it		 17:15
sebboh Hi. It appears that the TLS certificate presented by examples.perl6.org is valid for many hosts (docs.perl6.nl, docs.perl6.org, docs.perl6.wakelift.de, modules.perl6.org, perl6.nl, perl6.org, perl6.wakelift.de, rakudo.org, rakudo.perl6.org, www.perl6.org), but not the one in question. 17:16
Geth_ doc: taboege++ created pull request #2775:
Fix infinite range subscript examples		 17:24
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Geth_ doc: taboege++ created pull request #2776:
Small wording and punctuation fixes		 17:53
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Geth_ doc: 05afa2014f | (Tobias Boege)++ | doc/Type/Grammar.pod6
Type/Grammar: reflow and fix mis-capitalized word
 18:04
doc: 8c58a665d3 | (Tobias Boege)++ | doc/Language/concurrency.pod6
Language/Concurrency: fix punctuation
doc: e7b9314051 | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | 2 files
Merge pull request #2776 from taboege/misc-capitalization

Small wording and punctuation fixes
Kaiepi releasable6, help 18:09
releasable6 Kaiepi, status | status link # See wiki for more examples: github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki/Releasable
Kaiepi releasable6, status
releasable6 Kaiepi, Next release will happen when it's ready. 1 blocker. 132 out of 304 commits logged (⚠ 2 warnings)
Kaiepi, Details: gist.github.com/11c3db5a4691671548...c918ed387c
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Geth_ doc: 30c0348b50 | (Ben Davies)++ | 2 files
Mention that Scheduler.cue edge case handling is a 2019.05 feature
 18:21
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MidCheck sena_kun: thank you very much, It is already working very well. this is my code, but how to make it more elegant? get /'test'\.['png' | 'jp'['e']?'g' | 'gif']/ => { app.response.headers<Content-Type> = "image/jpg"; slurp (static-dir /(.+)/ => "data/").pop.execute('/car.png' ~~ /('car.png')/), :bin; } 18:34
my directory structure is bin, data, t, views 18:36
images and files are stored in the dada directory
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Geth_ doc/master: 4 commits pushed by (Jack Kuan)++, (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ 18:48
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clarkema Has anyone had success building distro packages (particularly RPMS) of Star? 19:09
yoleaux 26 Apr 2019 17:37Z <hankache> clarkema: do you by any chance still have a copy of the dmg for R*? File server went down and we need to host the files somewhere else.
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clarkema jnthn: btw, the moarvm.org ssl cert appears to have expired today 19:20
eseyman clarkema: dl.bintray.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg-rpms/ 19:21
clarkema hmm 19:26
interesting, thanks
eseyman beware that there isn't yet a repo for Fedora 30 19:27
clarkema I've been trying to persuade rpmbuild to make a standard-looking RPM based on Star, but it's not proving straightforward 19:29
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El_Che hi 20:00
Ubuntu 19.04 and Fedora 30 are coming once the release locations are available
adding those distros is a 1 line change
If a new location is chosen for the release I'll see that when the latest rakudo is released and change the build scripts accordingly 20:01
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eseyman I'm not sure what you mean by "release locations", El_Che 20:05
and thank you for those repos, while I'm at it
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Altreus How do I idiomatically concatenate arrays in a loop? e.g. where the arrays come from methods called on an array of objects? Not this: my @result = @objects.map: *.array-returning-method 20:12
I figure a hyperoperator is involved 20:13
Xliff Altreus: @result.append: array-returning-method
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Altreus oh 20:13
that's more sensible but also less cool :D 20:14
Xliff :P
m: my @a = ^3; @a.append; 3...^6; say @a
camelia Potential difficulties:
Useless use of ...^ in sink context
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my @a = ^3; @a.append; 3...^7⏏056; say @a
[0 1 2]
Xliff m: my @a = ^3; @a.append; 3...6; say @a 20:15
camelia Potential difficulties:
Useless use of ... in sink context
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my @a = ^3; @a.append; 3...7⏏056; say @a
[0 1 2]
Xliff m: my @a = ^3; @a.append; 3..6; say @a
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
[0 1 2]
Useless use of ".." in expression "3..6" in sink context (line 1)
Xliff Seriously?
tobs m: my @a = [1.5, 5.4, 10.2]; say @a».&{ .nude.Slip }
camelia [3 2 27 5 51 5]
clarkema you have a semi colon after append
Altreus nude :o
tobs here, nude is the list producing method
Xliff tobs++
Altreus ya cos append appended the array as a single entry :)
Xliff m: my @a = ^3; my @b = ^6; @a.append: |@b; @a.say 20:16
camelia [0 1 2 0 1 2 3 4 5]
Xliff ^^ so NYAA! ;P
tobs I think we feel alike in that cool means less alphabetics :-)
Xliff tobs: Mine was shorter than yours. 20:17
tobs that's also cool
Altreus the less ASCII the better
oh wait heh this one doesn't even return arrays xD 20:19
I'm always two steps ahead of myself, and I never catch myself up
Xliff Altreus: await self
tobs Xliff: mine contains a joke somewhere about covering up the nude
Xliff tobs: I just made one too! 20:20
Although are you SURE about that? Generally when someone mentions the word "Slip" the assumed term is "out"
tobs oh! :D 20:22
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Altreus there's a way of aliasing a module at use time, but it's not here docs.perl6.org/language/modules#use 21:13
I thought it was :name or something
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Altreus use Short:name<Long::Name> ? or something like that 21:14
lizmat Altreus: if you don't mind polluting your namespace with the full name 21:19
you can simply create a constant
m: my constant Foo = Str; dd Str.new("foo")
camelia Default constructor for 'Str' only takes named arguments
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
lizmat m: my constant Foo = Int; dd Foo.new(42) 21:20
camelia 42
Altreus I'm sure there's one that goes on the use line... I remember being lectured on why it seemed wrong
It was backwards and I said, why isn't it Long::Name:as<foo> 21:21
and I forgot why :P
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lizmat Altreus: I think it was only specced but never implemented ? 21:23
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Altreus 🤔 21:24
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Altreus ok :) 21:24
lizmat I'd like to be proven wrong :-)
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vrurg What might result in the core attempting invocation on infix:«>»? Dies with no 'CALL-ME method' exception but it shouldn't. 21:31
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lucs Is it unusual for a freshly clone rakudo to fail some of its basic tests? 21:36
*cloned
timotimo master branch, eh?
lucs Yes
timotimo "make test" or "make spectest"? 21:37
lucs make test
timotimo can you be more specific about what tests those are?
lucs Sure, hang on...
Um, where do we paste temporary stuff around here? 21:38
timotimo often gist, but sprunge.us is nice and small 21:39
lucs Yeah, gist, hang on...
Doesn't tell much, but there it is: gist.github.com/lucs/86703bdba04b9...8d16e02b5f 21:41
And a bunch of others fail similarly (I think) 21:42
timotimo can you run it manually?
without the harness i mean
lucs I guess, one minute...
Um, -Ilib will do if running from the root? 21:43
timotimo apparently
probably only if you run ./perl6-m though
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timotimo perhaps it's a "can't run tests before 'make install'" kind of problem 21:43
lucs Could not find Test at line 3 in:... 21:44
timotimo we had some changes recently to stuff related to that
yeah, that'd want a -Ilib
lucs Oops, wanted to put it, forgot...
Hmm... Similar; gist coming... 21:45
gist.github.com/lucs/9c234303a7b70...7e045c9a74 21:46
timotimo well, that's just rude 21:47
lucs Sorry ;) 21:48
timotimo i don't have a ./perl6 at all
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timotimo what is it? 21:48
lucs Not sure, I guess it was built by the make? 21:49
./perl6 -v
This is Rakudo version 2019.03.1-310-g3c5a53229 built on MoarVM version 2019.03-110-g081823ffc
timotimo maybe my makefile is out of date
oh, i don't actually have a moar that compiles right now because i'm in the middle of something 21:50
and honestly super tired right now, may perhaps go to bed very soon
lucs Oh well, I have to leave anyway.
Thanks, and I'll be back later.
Sleep well! 21:51
timotimo o/ 21:54
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Kaiepi how useful would libkvm bindings be? 22:46
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kjk p6: my $n = 1 / 0; try say $n; say "{$!.^name} is {$! ~~ Failure ?? 'a' !! 'not a'} Failure" 22:53
camelia X::Numeric::DivideByZero is not a Failure
kjk it seems the DivideByZero exception acts like a Failure but is actually not a Failure?
my $n = 1/0; try say $n; say "\$n is {$n ~~ Failure ?? 'a' !! 'not a'} Failure" 23:03
evalable6 $n is not a Failure
kjk my $n = +'abc'; try say $n; say "\$n is {$n ~~ Failure ?? 'a' !! 'not a'} Failure" 23:04
evalable6 $n is a Failure
kjk p6: my $n = 1/0; try say '$n = ', $n; say $n.^name; say $n.^mro 23:10
camelia Rat
((Rat) (Cool) (Any) (Mu))
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Geth_ doc/master: 8 commits pushed by Coke++ 23:18
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