»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
vrurg aearnus[m]: Is SVG good enough? BTW, timotimo works on a game already. 00:00
SmokeMachine AlexDaniel: seems great
vrurg aearnus[m]: actually, check with modules.perl6.org. For example: modules.perl6.org/search/?q=plot 00:01
aearnus[m] i'm taking a look. if timo released his cairo bindings those would work 00:02
oh, he did
:D
Doc_Holliwood how very much prettier Perl 6 is, you can really see in direct comparison: stackoverflow.com/questions/575921...7#57600097 00:07
aearnus[m] Doc_Holliwood: fwiw, `@strings.comb` is a nicer way to write `@strings.map: *.split('', :skip-empty)` 00:09
** @strings.map: .comb
m: my @s = <hello world>; ([Z] @s>>.comb).say 00:10
camelia ((h w) (e o) (l r) (l l) (o d))
dominix AlexDaniel: sorry, I was away, ClearLinux has support for snap or flatpak, but no rpm nor deb 00:15
AlexDaniel rba: but then, evalable6 also has a few brain cells :)
rba: for example
say 42
evalable6 42
AlexDaniel how did it know? ;)
aearnus[m] say, I wonder... 00:16
AlexDaniel :P
aearnus[m] (ahh, I thought I could trick it) 00:17
aearnus[m] aha................. so, it looks at nonalphawhitespace characters 00:21
vrurg say if True ??
say if True
But it's a valid thing!
aearnus[m] ohh, I see. it throws out bad requests if it doesn't see the prefix
vrurg: github.com/perl6/whateverable/blob...ble.p6#L46 00:22
vrurg aearnus[m]: cheating? Looking at the last page? :p
aearnus[m] hehe, it's not cheating if the book of answers is splayed out in front of me :p 00:23
AlexDaniel aearnus[m]: that thing only checks if the message is more wordy than symboly 00:29
aearnus[m]: if it is, then it's unlikely to be code, so it doesn't bother
.say if True
say ‘x’ if True
evalable6 x
AlexDaniel aearnus[m]: but TL;DR it executes every message and looks at the output, if it's kinda clean then it replies 00:30
AlexDaniel that's the magic: github.com/perl6/whateverable/blob...p6#L71-L79 00:32
that if doesn't make much sense to me, actually 00:34
aearnus[m] "forcefully proceed with non-zero signals" 00:37
allows zero signals
AlexDaniel I'm not sure what did I even mean 00:40
ahhh actually it's right? 00:41
so if it's sighup, then'll it'll return
if it's zero, then it depends on other rules 00:42
if it's segfault, then it won't go into that block
I think it's right. Should I participate in code obfuscation contest? :D
AlexDaniel woah 01:16
Grinnz freenode had an unhappy 01:22
epony what happened? 01:23
Kaiepi awful hypocritical of freenode to ban spammers but not ban itself for spamming people every time a netsplit happens. this is known as the divine right of kings 01:33
Grinnz IRC is hard 01:42
that netsplit even managed to fill up my window with irccloud's collapsing :P 01:43
aearnus[m] not strictly Perl 6, but this is something y'all will laugh at twitter.com/qntm/status/1164319242...65440?s=19 02:52
Kaiepi "this is how JS programmers check for valid JSON" is completely serious btw 03:05
Grinnz 🤣 03:15
aearnus[m] m: my $parens = 'this string has (matching parens)'; sub check($s) { CATCH { return False }; / $s /.defined }; check($parens).say 03:20
camelia True
aearnus[m] m: my $parens = 'this string (doesnt'; sub check($s) { CATCH { return False }; / $s /.defined }; check($parens).say
camelia True
aearnus[m] and I oop
hythm hello, is there a way to make a class attribute `rw` but only for once? Means after setting the value the attribute becomes immutable 03:24
may be like `class C { has $.a is rw-once } 03:26
rba morning 05:53
tellable6 2019-08-21T23:42:09Z #perl6 <AlexDaniel> rba and you can also pass a message like this
dpk AlexDaniel: nice! why do you ignore case-folding though, but not those punctuation thingies? (nice idea btw, i should have done that for yoleaux) 06:22
El_Che dpk: what hapenned with yoleaux, by the way? To much work little time? 06:23
dpk yeah, it hadn't been maintained properly in several years. since i was migrating to a new server anyway i decided it was time to turn it off 06:24
El_Che it makes sense
it was a nice service, thx for that 06:25
dpk yw! 06:27
Geth doc: a38f5a5fb4 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/regexes.pod6
Fixes compilation errors closes #2963
 07:40
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/regexes
cono m: class A { multi method z(Int :$x) { $x.say }}; class B is A { multi method z(Int :$x = 42) { nextsame } }; class C is A { multi method z(Int :$x = 42) { nextwith(:$x) }}; B.new.z; C.new.z 10:08
camelia (Int)
42
cono is this expected behabior ?
cono I was expecting nextsame, actually uses values after multi dispatch 10:11
jnthn nextsame iterates through a pre-determined candidate list (based on the original arguments). 10:26
(As does nextwith, etc.) 10:27
If you want to redispatch, use samewith
cono yeah, I understand, but problem here is not in the list of next candidates. problem that default value for :$x not accounted when I do nextsame but does if I do nextwith and explicitly specify :$x 10:30
jnthn Ah, yes, that's unsurprising also, because nextsame uses the argument capture that was originally passed (which is immutable) 10:32
$x is just a variable bound to something from that capture
Binding an alternative value to that variable is a method-local action; it doesn't have any impact on the underlying argument capture 10:33
hellothere hi, how can I run search-replace in a file when I know the path to the file? 10:55
hellothere something like `perl -e 's/foo/bar/g' filename`, but in p6, and inside a script 10:56
jnthn Probably something like `.spurt: .slurp.subst('foo', 'bar', :g) given $filename.IO` 10:58
scimon Shiny.
daxim perl6 --help | grep -- '-[np] ' 10:59
these switches used to be a module
hellothere jnthn: holy smokes, it works beautifully! thanks :)
AlexDaniel dpk: I still foldcase, just not based on CASEMAPPING received from the server 11:29
dpk ah right
kawaii oh AlexDaniel is here! 11:32
AlexDaniel dpk: thank you for your bot, I had all these ideas because I wasn't starting from scratch
kawaii usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/...-20.tar.gz
I was supposed to give this to you before
kawaii uh, on 2019.07.1, any idea why I can install every other module except my own? :( www.irccloud.com/pastebin/PVJigE9j/ 11:34
www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GaDbhqdt/ 11:35
whaaaaa
AlexDaniel kawaii: thanks! github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/3132 11:54
kawaii AlexDaniel: are you running 2019.07.1? would you be able to tell me why `API::Discord` fails to fetch? 12:09
even when force fetch and --/test, it fails
AlexDaniel kawaii: yeah, it also fails to fetch here
kawaii I am using zef from github if that matters, HEAD 12:10
AlexDaniel kawaii: I don't know, it doesn't say anything really :) 12:12
even with --debug
kawaii :(
scimon kawaii: Just tried installing it and got an error about not being able to find API::Discord::Permissions 12:20
kawaii ahhh hmmmm that might make sense, I think my co-author pushed some changes to do with that 12:21
scimon: thanks!
Altreus My ears are burning 12:40
sorry kawaii I can't hear you over the poolside playlist 12:41
kawaii _screaming_
scimon kawaii: I'm interested in having a play about with it though. :) 13:50
kawaii scimon: that would be much appreciated, it's only about 60% finished if I had to guess and Discord keep updating with new features so... :P 13:51
having people actually use it would be great
Altreus 🎶 under pressure 13:53
scimon The only docs I could find on making a Discord app where using Java (admittedly I didn't look much).
scimon Being able to make them in a nice language would be good 13:54
(Or indeed a good language would be nice) 13:56
kawaii scimon: there are some example applications in the repo itself, in the `examples/` directory, or you can see an example of a much larger application (bot) using it here: github.com/kawaii/p6-rose (but the code is bad because I am bad at OOP) 14:03
scimon Functions! For the win!
kawaii I always feel bad looking at code from even just a few weeks ago :( 14:05
scimon Well I either feel bad or confused ;) 14:05
Don't worry. This is normal. Coding is about packing a complex problem into your head and holding it there long enough to put it on the computer.
And then it wanders off. It's like Wizards spells in D&D. If you want to do it again you have to get your head in the same space. 14:06
sena_kun kawaii, no need to feel bad, it happens. Though the fact that it happens does not justify an absence of prettifying afterwards, of course. 14:07
kawaii sena_kun: you and jnthn write really elegant looking programs and it makes mere mortals like me feel bad :P 14:10
sena_kun blushes 14:11
scimon It takes time and practice. (If you want to feel better about your code feel free to take a look at mine ;) )
I still write very Perl5y Perl6. 14:12
vrurg scimon: I hope you dont 'use Moose'? :p
scimon Not... THAT bad.
But I still use () where : could work instead. 14:13
kawaii I tried to write Perl 5 once and gave up because I couldn't use a hyphen in a variable name. 14:14
scimon Ah well I think I'm a bit older. This whole kebab case thing is both cool and slightly weird. 14:15
(I didn't write Perl4 but I have written a lot of Perl5. Not all us Perl5 geezers dislike new things).
kawaii I'm only 25 which I think makes me one of the younger Perl 6 users. :)
Grinnz as a perl 5 user, hyphen not being valid in identifiers was a mistake IMO 14:16
scimon It's awesome. And frankly it's what we need. Sure convincing a bunch of middle aged peeps to change their minds would be neat but seeing new people picking it up is awesome.
I remember when I read Learning Perl (would have been 28 or so) and it was the first programming language I really grokked. 14:17
Grinnz but I am pretty sure the "word character" set which excludes hyphens did not originate with perl
I'm going to blame POSIX like for most things :P 14:18
scimon Sounds like a plan.
(I think it's a C thing and probably before that).
Geth whateverable: c1e3457c63 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | 2 files
Reply to thank-you's
 14:20
scimon kawaii: I think the problem might be the API::Discord::Permissions isn't in the META6.json file. I've found zef can get confused if a module doesn't provide something a previous version did. 14:41
(Might have to make a dice rolling bot. I like dice rollers) 14:42
kawaii scimon: hey you're right! 14:44
or
uh no
I got excited ahead of myself :P
scimon First thought is to make a Module with a Grammar that can parse all kinds of dice requests and return data. Then plug it into a bot :) 14:47
sena_kun maybe github.com/jamesneko/dice-roller can help? :) 14:49
kawaii Grammars are cool, I haven't even used them yet though personally 14:50
scimon Ooooo 14:51
kawaii We wrote Command::Despatch (github.com/shuppet/p6-command-despatch) to parse commands but I feel like a grammar based command parser would be better
scimon Though... I have many type of rolls to do (Invisible sun for instance uses d10's but they go 0-9 not 1-10... which is weird). 14:52
Oh yeah Grammars are great.
I'm (occasionally) working on one to parse Markdown...
simcop2387 AlexDaniel: all fixed up with the seen stuff 15:18
seen: bullshit
tellable6 simcop2387, I haven't seen bullshit around, did you mean bolshoi?
simcop2387 perlbot: seen bullshit
perlbot simcop2387: I don't think I've seen bullshit.
AlexDaniel heh, “I don't think”, the bot is unsure :)
simcop2387: thank you!
perlbot: thank you too! 15:19
cpan-p6 New module released to CPAN! Gnome::Gtk3 (0.18.2) by 03MARTIMM 15:20
New module released to CPAN! Gnome::GObject (0.14.0) by 03MARTIMM
New module released to CPAN! Gnome::Gdk3 (0.14.10) by 03MARTIMM
New module released to CPAN! Gnome::N (0.13.6) by 03MARTIMM
scimon Shiny! 15:21
simcop2387 i have no idea what Gnome::N is for but i can almost definitely say that the name wasn't Martimm's fault. 15:22
Altreus It's the part of a sundial that casts a shadow 15:36
scimon Ba dum tish 15:39
SmokeMachine scimon: wouldn't that be "1d10 - 1"? 15:42
scimon Yes but you roll up to 4. 1 or more need to equal or beat a target number (so similar to WoD games). With some added stuff.
Oh and for 3 of the 4 potential dice (which you get through magic) a 0 makes weird stuff happen. 15:43
(But not the first dice).
I have this kinda crazy idea to basically have a dice rolling module that covers every game I can with a parser as well. 15:44
Because I need to relax somehow.
SmokeMachine scimon: will it can return a boolean, for example "run 3d6 and it's true if at least 2 of them are higher than 3" 15:46
scimon: and it roll the dices and return a boolean? 15:47
scimon Yeah I want to be able to do something like parse("3d6 vs 10").Str and get "Rolled 13. Success" 15:49
While .Bool gives True (in this case)
:D
But some games you total the roll. Others it's individual dice (and some like the new Star Wars are *really* weird). 15:50
SmokeMachine "3d6 vs 2x3" for "run 3d6 and it's true if at least 2 of them are higher than 3"? 15:51
Geth whateverable: a32bb6009c | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | 2 files
Make Evalable ignore ‘???’ and ‘sleep &’

These just happen to be common and somewhat valid.
scimon something like that. 15:52
SmokeMachine scimon: interesting...
scimon Vampire is dice pool vs target and generally you need 1 success but more is good. 15:53
But there's lot. Star Wars has it's own dice and you make a pool of different dice. It interesting because you can succeed but have bad stuff happen.
Or fil but have good stuff. 15:54
Or fail but have good stuff.
Even
SmokeMachine I'm thinking of creating a Red bot... it would be tellable6 using Red + Camelia with Red installed and saving models...
I'm thinking on creating a #red...
and that bot would be there... 15:55
scimon :)
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine: I don't mind if whateverables used Red, but somebody needs to work on that and maintain it 15:56
also, maybe we should make some modules usable in evalable, not just red 15:57
even json::fast and stuff
SmokeMachine AlexDaniel: That's a interesting proposal...
AlexDaniel: I think it would be very useful... 15:59
AlexDaniel they already are, it's just not very convenient 15:59
antoniogamiz o/
AlexDaniel e: use lib ‘data/all-modules/cpan/TIMOTIMO/JSON-Fast/lib’; say 42 16:00
evalable6 42
AlexDaniel e: use lib ‘data/all-modules/cpan/TIMOTIMO/JSON-Fast/lib’; say to-json 42 16:00
evalable6 42
Saw 1 occurrence of deprecated code.
==================================================…
AlexDaniel, Full output: gist.github.com/7f15ac0998b0ba4253...7d96a69390
AlexDaniel e: use lib ‘data/all-modules/cpan/TIMOTIMO/JSON-Fast/lib’; use JSON::Fast; say to-json 42
evalable6 42
AlexDaniel e: use lib ‘data/all-modules/cpan/TIMOTIMO/JSON-Fast/lib’; use JSON::Fast; say to-json 42 => 50
evalable6 {
"42": 50
}
AlexDaniel so we can parse the code for `use …:…:…` lines and automatically include the right lib paths 16:01
… and also figure out the dependencies and that kind of stuff
and it'll work in like more than 99% of cases when you need something like this 16:02
SmokeMachine e: use lib ‘data/all-modules/cpan/FCO/Red/lib’; use Red; model Bla { has Unit $.id is serial }; my $*RED-DB = database "SQLite"; Bla.^create-table; Bla.^create for ^5; .say for Bla.^all 16:03
evalable6 (signal SIGHUP) «timed out after 10 seconds»
SmokeMachine :(
e: use lib ‘data/all-modules/cpan/FCO/Red/lib’; use Red; model Bla { has Unit $.id is serial }; my $*RED-DB = database "SQLite"; Bla.^create-table; Bla.^create for ^5; .say for Bla.^all
evalable6 (signal SIGHUP) «timed out after 10 seconds»
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine: if it's that slow I can't help it :D 16:04
evalable6: vars
evalable6 AlexDaniel, commit=HEAD; timeout=10
AlexDaniel evalable6: timeout=50
evalable6 AlexDaniel, timeout is now set to “50” (default value is “10”)
AlexDaniel e: use lib ‘data/all-modules/cpan/FCO/Red/lib’; use Red; model Bla { has Unit $.id is serial }; my $*RED-DB = database "SQLite"; Bla.^create-table; Bla.^create for ^5; .say for Bla.^all
evalable6 (exit code 1) 04===SORRY!04===
Type 'Unit' is not declared. Did you mean any…
AlexDaniel, Full output: gist.github.com/daf8355fa87e843f24...d0e5fe4153
SmokeMachine e: use lib ‘data/all-modules/cpan/FCO/Red/lib’; use Red; model Bla { has UInt $.id is serial }; my $*RED-DB = database "SQLite"; Bla.^create-table; Bla.^create for ^5; .say for Bla.^all
evalable6 (exit code 1) ===SORRY!===
Could not find DBIish at line 1 in:
file#/home/bisectable/g…
SmokeMachine, Full output: gist.github.com/b15d1a62aefc2ad139...71a3983834
AlexDaniel it'll be faster now that it's precompiled
ok that's when it gets difficult… 16:05
SmokeMachine that's the problem of that method... modules using modules...
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine: yeah, but we can resolve all dependencies automatically 16:06
so it's doable
Geth problem-solving/path-to-raku: 62c083def6 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | solutions/language/SWOT-TO-RAKU.md
Add a strength and an opportunity
 16:08
lucasb will keep at least one core developer from leaving the project? 16:11
tadzik that's what it says, yes ;) 16:12
lucasb FTR, I think #81 and #89 are absurd. I'm not OK with they being kept open. 16:14
tadzik I think #81 is open for your concerns 16:17
lucasb I don't think I would be able to put into better words what others have already said, so I would bringing nothing new to the discussion. I'm just expressing my feelings here on the channel, if that's ok. :) 16:25
tadzik heh, having been opposed to the idea too, I wrote down my thoughts in #81 and was frustrated at the "silent agreement" that some have expressed 16:27
"I've read what you said and I agree!", the would say. But without them saying it themselves on github it makes it seem like nobody – except me – has the same concerns 16:28
so I'd say: even if you'd just repeat somebody else's points, please do so, if you can take the time 16:29
Grinnz the reactions were helpful for that. it's unfortunate that it's not possible to allow reactions without allowing more peanut gallery
tadzik then again, I think at this point the case is basically closed and the issues is resolved
lucasb tadzik: ah, ok. I think understand what you said. FTR, I *totally* agree with your comment there.
tadzik Grinnz: they kind of fill that need, yes, but I think that the magnitude of how much nobody cares about emoji reactions can only be matched by how much I hate them personally :P 16:30
lucasb By "case is closed and issue is resolved", do you mean the renaming will happen?
tadzik lucasb: I think so, ye
Grinnz I think it's a very useful indicator 16:31
lucasb 100 thumbs-up against 1 thumbs-down? I don't think those reactions mean much, lol. Isn't they all P5 people?
Grinnz it's not a vote, only the 13 mentioned people have that, but it's a piece of the difficult "what does the community think" puzzle
they certainly are not. 16:32
tadzik I feel like because of how easy they are to make – and how kinda-anonymous they are (who's checking each individual reaction before they decide if they're legit or not?") – bound them to total worthlessness
in a closed, curated community they may have been a useful indicator 16:33
Grinnz it's as useful as any statistics, really
in a closed, curated community they would only be useful if you want to know what the closed, curated community thinks 16:34
another word for that is echo chamber 16:35
(phrase?)
tadzik yeah, fair enough
I guess what I meant to say is: a proper, well-worded comment is worth 1000 winky faces 16:36
lucasb tadzik++
GH is social media. I care about the opinion of the core developers, not about the outside community 16:37
AlexDaniel peanut gallery xD
tadzik I'm not a big fan of echochambers, but on the other hand I don't see much value in a contribution of dozens of people who don't really give a shit about the project all the issue, but if they can hop in and click a single button to vote for something random, they will
it's like internet petitions really
tadzik everyone can join in, the cost of signing is close to zero, so why not have your internet bandwagon make it seem like something is a popular idea? 16:38
Grinnz lucasb: well, several core developers opinions are in that issue as well
including the opening comments ;)
AlexDaniel tadzik: honestly, I'm not sure if a comment is worth much. There are more than 200 comments, absorbing them all is kinda difficult 16:39
lucasb as I said, there are NO consensus among them
Grinnz there is not. and until there is, one way or another, this issue will reappear
tadzik AlexDaniel: that's true – and the discussion got a bit... distracted at times, making it even harder
still, if you were to substitute them all with an aggregation of emoji reacions, you'll get *none* of their value rather than a sample of it, imo 16:40
AlexDaniel all that doesn't matter anyway 16:42
tadzik but it's perhaps reasonable to take what I say with a grain of salt, since I just hate emojis *so much
AlexDaniel there are 13 reviewers, and they'll decide 16:42
lucasb how long will that take? I think we'll be in agony until everything's resolved 16:43
AlexDaniel lucasb: as for keeping them open, #81 is a valid problem so even if #89 won't go through, I believe #81 will stay open
and again, reviewers will decide if #89 should be accepted or rejected 16:44
lucasb: who's in agony? :) 16:45
lucasb: a few weeks
tadzik the ones who hope for one outcome but expect another, I feel :)
AlexDaniel so who's really hoping that Perl 6 will remain “Perl 6”? 16:49
lucasb \o/
AlexDaniel that's… two hands 16:50
tadzik o/
but I've moved on to the 5th stage of grief already :P
and am utimately hopeful for the future 16:51
lucasb I hope moritz, masak, ugexe, nine and other fellows will be more eloquent than I'm, because I'm really starting to worry about the renaming.
*sorry* to directly request for your opinion, but I wish this problem would settle earlier. 16:52
gdonald what sort of concurrency would work best for console I/O? for example a non-blocking console game 16:54
AlexDaniel lucasb: it's actually the right thing to do, I think. If you're not on the list then talking to reviewers is a good approach 16:56
gdonald: hmm I'm not sure, terminal stuff can be difficult sometimes 16:57
gdonald: anything specific you're going to use? Or are you planning to read straight from stdin?
gdonald I want to do keyboard input while also redrawing the screen, in a non-blocking manner 16:59
I'm reading from tty, with some stty params to do one char at a time
that works
but I'm blocking my draw code :(
AlexDaniel gdonald: something like this? github.com/RGVID-EU/RoboRG-Middlew...p6#L63-L64 17:01
it's maybe a bit too simple but it does work 17:02
gdonald thanks, I was actually thinking to try a Channel next.
AlexDaniel lucasb: sooo… do you have any alternative solution? 17:55
lucasb: or what's your position exactly?
El_Che (networking trouble where my shell runs. Sorry if there were many joins/parts, but probably not, because it lost connection :) ) 17:57
Geth problem-solving/path-to-raku: bcf6c877b7 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | solutions/language/SWOT-TO-RAKU.md
Revert "Add a strength and an opportunity"

This reverts commit 62c083def671f1080677b5cccab7768292c0c339.		 18:07
lucasb AlexDaniel: I'll try to write my opinion coherently and share with you later :) 18:42
[Coke] wonders what the most sixish way of saying "does anything in this list contain any fragments from this other list" is.
AlexDaniel [Coke]: set intersection? 18:43
or what do you mean by fragments?
chloekek any(@xs) ⊆ @ys 18:45
[Coke] @data.first({my $i=$_; @fragments.grep({$i.contains: $_})})
so, if I want to scan through email addresses and find anything with 'coleda.com' in it, e.g. 18:46
@data.first({my $i=$_; @fragments.first({$i.contains: $_})})
chloekek There's an Aho—Corasick library which can probably efficiently look for many different substrings in a single string. 18:47
[Coke] ... I don't need real efficiency here, but thank you 18:52
chloekek my Algorithm::AhoCorasick $ac .= new(keywords => @fragments); @data.grep({ $ac.match($_) });
Maybe any(@data).contains(any(@fragments)) works. Not sure if you can call methods on junctions. 18:53
chloekek p6: my @data = 'foobar', 'alibaba'; my @fragments = 'ob', 'kek'; say so any(@data).contains(any(@fragments)); 18:55
camelia True
chloekek p6: my @data = 'foobar', 'alibaba'; my @fragments = 'chloe', 'kek'; say so any(@data).contains(any(@fragments));
camelia False
[Coke] I wonder if the compiler is smart enough to stop when it finds something, or if it's checking everything. 18:56
chloekek p6: for ^1000 { my @data = 'foobar', 'alibaba'; my @fragments = 'chloe', 'kek'; say so any(@data).contains(any(@fragments)); }; say now - INIT now 19:00
camelia False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
False
Fal…
chloekek p6: for ^1000 { my @data = 'foobar', 'alibaba'; my @fragments = 'chloe', 'kek'; so any(@data).contains(any(@fragments)); }; say now - INIT now
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
1.87318682
Useless use of "so " in expression "so any(@data).contains(any(@fragments))" in sink context (line 1)
chloekek p6: for ^1000 { my @data = 'foobar', 'alibaba'; my @fragments = 'chloe', 'kek'; @data.first(-> $s { @fragments.first({ .contains($s) }) }); }; say now - INIT now 19:01
camelia 0.810917
Geth problem-solving/path-to-raku: 235ae7d6e7 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | solutions/language/SWOT-TO-RAKU.md
Mention potential drain from events
 19:25
El_Che The SWOT is a reall waste of time 19:36
so subjective that's it's useless 19:37
we're all guessing
chloekek Will the P and 6 in Camelia’s wings remain? :D
El_Che chloekek: yes
chloekek yay
El_Che (however I would prefer to get rid of the mascotte, by far the worst I've seen) 19:38
Grinnz El_Che: it's a very managerial thing to do... but it does lay out some things
El_Che and by far, I mean very by far
I seen many in a business setting, mostly bullshit :) 19:39
I you are for something make a good proposal
if
if you're against, make a counterproposal
what's a risc for someone is an opportuity for an other 19:40
Grinnz the problem is that the only opposition I have seen is with the counterproposal of do nothing and pretend there are no problems.
El_Che same for weakness and strenght
uzl[m] chloekek: It's so much of an easter egg that I think most people miss it. I myself didn't notice the first time I saw Camelia.
AlexDaniel El_Che: feel free to start a new problem-solving issue about that. And good luck! 19:42
looks like we're not touching camelia as part of the rename, and that's for the better
El_Che AlexDaniel: yeah, that's what we need :)
AlexDaniel: I am for not changing it
while I hate it
AlexDaniel good. Next topic please :D 19:43
El_Che becasue it's not fundamental to me
it's crap marketing, that's all
I'll end with this: even children hate it :)
AlexDaniel El_Che: have they seen the plush version?
El_Che yes 19:44
it's an infantalized version of what an adult think children like
AlexDaniel but dunno, golang has retarded turd as a mascot, seems to be working fine for them
El_Che anyway, enough ranting
it's retarded all right
but not that retarded
it a simple form
we're are a overly complex... 19:45
oh no
:)
Grinnz I honestly didn't know what their mascot was until just now... and yeah that is not great
El_Che too much metaphores here :)
anyway, a metaphore can stay out of a business presentation 19:46
it's only problematic if it's the logo
uzl[m] Camelia will probably grow on you, El_Che 😁�. 19:47
El_Che I have *honestly* tried 19:48
I don't like to be the grumpy guy
AlexDaniel El_Che: is it the colors or the shape? 19:51
El_Che the shape
uzl[m] I'm all for keeping Camelia but I gave it a go at creating a Raku logo (raw.githubusercontent.com/uzluisf/...array.png) during the Github rename issue.
Probably too artesanal?!
aearnus[m] <AlexDaniel "El_Che: is it the colors or the "> for what it's worth, El_Che++ 19:52
El_Che I see a woman's dress :) 19:52
but it's maybe just me :)
rba :-)
rba Or a lava lamp? 19:53
El_Che a tie?
aearnus[m] uzl (@uzluisf:matrix.org): my thought for a Raku logo was to exploit the fact that R A K U looks really pretty when arranged in a square
El_Che 60's tie
AlexDaniel` someone should really make a badass version of camelia 19:54
uzl[m] Yeah, probably more like a lava lamp.
AlexDaniel` I'll even agree to have it on the front page of perl6.org
El_Che AlexDaniel: a reimagining? that would be great. A variation? meh
uzl[m] It's supposed to be a vase though. 19:55
El_Che on the other hand if even google with all its moneys can't get a proper mascot...
Grinnz Zoffix made a really nice butterfly for one of those announcements
El_Che uzl[m]: if course, we're half winding you up
rba Personally I like the analogy of broken pottery. Yet it should not be confused with the art ot the pottery creating process. 19:56
El_Che I think AlexDaniel had a good point about no associating to much to pottery, were there may be trademarks
uzl[m] aearnus: Do you mean just the letters?
aearnus[m] Yeah. Just as far as doing something typographically with them 19:57
As far as the rest of the contents of the logo, /shrug
El_Che you need to find an explanation for the
backronym 19:58
rba Grinnz: one published on marketing.perl6.org
El_Che Oh "raku"? It's an ancient word in a Japanese dialect meaning "not Perl 5"
Grinnz the one under brochures, yes
El_Che ok, it may be the colours also: this is probably one of the best I've seen marketing.perl6.org/asset/pics/logo.png 19:59
Grinnz it also looks very artistically cromulent with raku, but that's just my view
El_Che not being a fan, but not extremely repulsed
uzl[m] aearnus: Oh, I see. I think something like that could look nice.
aearnus[m] :) 20:00
uzl[m] Grinnz: I submitted a variant with softer colors and what I consider a more inviting smile (sorry, Larry ;-)) 20:01
user-images.githubusercontent.com/...f94a05.png
El_Che uzl[m]: it's better. The pink is still very bright though 20:02
it could be a 80s tshirt
Grinnz at the risk of overstepping what my opinion is worth on this matter, yes the smile is much better on that one 20:03
rba In general I like „the butterfly“ as symbol for the language. As it‘s a second life for a creature. 20:04
uzl[m] Let's rock the 80s :-)!
El_Che rba: as a metaphore, sure.
and I *love* butterflies
rba And some bools choose really beautiful ones on there cover.
El_Che please no jokes about the butterfly effect :)
Grinnz camelia reminds me more of those moths with eyes on their wings. just saying :P 20:05
rba perl6book.com 20:06
uzl[m] Yeah, the book covers look great. 20:12
Literal eyes? Or just the illusion of eyes to scare predators away?
Grinnz haha, I don't think there's any with actual eyes on their wings 20:13
chloekek Or a raptor holding a Swiss Army magic wand 20:14
uzl[m] Grinnz: My imagination was already running wild. Their wings are too flimsy and don't have any tissue but could it be possible though? 20:19
chloekek: I think Perl 5 has also a raptor as its logo. Or so I've read. 20:20
Grinnz yes, unlike the camel, it is owned by the community
so it's useful there
El_Che raptor perl
aearnus[m] Why not a moth? images.app.goo.gl/okGRJ7uCrUAqPTRV9 20:21
chloekek www.markkeating.me.uk/2011/02/25/ra...-chainsaw/
caterpillar for nqp 20:22
rba The raptor is strongly associated with Perl 5. 20:35
rba The swiss army knive might violate some rights of Victorinox. The company who produces them. 20:38
I like the caterpillar, yet then you assume that Perl 6 is grown out of NQP. 20:39
aearnus[m] Could do something reminiscent of a Swiss army knife. The multitool is kinda an overdone trope for technologies, but there are plenty of things that have multiple functionalities 20:40
Y'know what's versatile? The brick. Perl 6 bricks :p
rba I prefer to stay with animals. 20:44
chloekek I've heard chicken is quite versatile 20:46
aearnus[m] Scheme beat us there
rba El_Che: Which is the prefered Linux OS used in the Perl 6 community? 20:54
AlexDaniel rba: I don't think there's any preference 21:00
rba: why?
rba: maybe you're interested in this: repology.org/project/rakudo/versions
rba I would like to know if there is a preference for dockerizing rakudo. 21:14
AlexDaniel rba: then maybe alpine? 21:25
or, well… what do you mean by dockerizing 21:26
you want to use rakudo in docker and you're deciding on your host os?
or? 21:27
rba rakudo in docker (+Perl 5 + a bunch of CPAN modules) 21:29
+ NGINX
I think Apline Linux is a lightweight OS and fits well into a docker container... 21:30
AlexDaniel yeah, Alpine is one of the favorites :) 21:32
woolfy1 I was curious how discussions would go. Apparently, as low as this... "The SWOT is a reall waste of time" and ""so subjective that's it's useless", and nobody protested against it, and it was not nuanced. Nice insult to lizmat. 21:52
tellable6 2019-08-21T22:00:02Z #perl6 <El_Che> woolfy1: Grinnz has been very polite and constructive, I don't think conflict is needed
2019-08-21T23:47:04Z #perl6 <AlexDaniel> woolfy: thank you for your work!
AlexDaniel meh, I don't know. People asked about risks and got SWOT 21:53
woolfy1 Also as low as this, regarding the Perl 6 mascotte Camelia: "it's crap marketing, that's all", and "I'll end with this: even children hate it :)" and about the stuffed toy: "it's an infantalized version of what an adult think children like".
AlexDaniel useless or not, that's what people were interested in, so there we go
woolfy1 I've spent 11 months on getting that infantalized version of Camelia, I paid to have a thousand copies made, it was of the few times I saw Larry being so emotional he was close to crying when he got the first copy. 21:54
I've been sent dozens of pictures of children (ranging from toddlers to teenagers, boys and girls) sleeping and/or cuddling their Camelia stuffed toy, by proud parents who got / bought one from me. 21:55
rba woolfy1: My 7 years old daught *loves* the Camelia stuff toy you made and sleeps with it every night. 21:56
s/daught/daughter/
woolfy1 Quite some people who won the Squashathon got one from me and sent me a emotional thank you when I sent them their prize Camelia stuffed toy: user-images.githubusercontent.com/...a62cb4.png
So I get it, it's a f**king "infantalized version of what an adult think children like, and nobody protested here against that. 21:57
Sorry rba, not getting there...
I mean, it does not reach my furious mind. 21:58
AlexDaniel: a SWOT analysis is a way to define what the risks are of renaming Perl 6 to whatever. If you know a better way than such a waste of time, something so subjective that it is useless, and you did not protest against those words, well, please, think of something more useful and less ubjective. 21:59
rba cares about woolfy1‘s blood pressure
woolfy1 I am damn furious indeed.
El_Che woolfy1: why do you care if someone does not like a mascotte. I am pretty sure there is lots of stuff you hate with good reasons 22:00
woolfy1 And if people would care about me to stay in the Perl-community, today's discussions and tone of voice and abscense of protest against those words, were not the right way to keep me in the community. 22:00
El_Che that's really what the mascotte feels like to me and everyone I've shown them at work
there has been zero positive reactions about it 22:01
woolfy1 I do care because I have put a f**king amount of work in it. And because of the words you used.
El_Che you are projecting the infant to the maker
woolfy1 You want a ragequit instead of a grieve-sad-quit? You got it
AlexDaniel woolfy1: but… but…
woolfy1 exit
El_Che you could see it as: "it looks like what adult think children likes" 22:02
-s
it does not mean the adult is infantile
it means the the good intentations did not result in the desired outcome 22:03
that's something completely different
I have told a zillion go people that I don't like their mascot much. They don't care :
:)
that's an healthy attitude in my book 22:04
there is lots of stuff I dislike where people put hard word in, e.g electronic music 22:05
Grinnz it is hard to get to the perspective of not having an emotional reaction to people disliking something you put work into, or even something you like
El_Che do techno music fan care that I find their music sounds like an 8 bit nintendo? No they don't care
Grinnz it's human nature 22:06
El_Che I know loooooooooots of people that don't like perl
it's ok
Grinnz for perl you have to get desensitized to it, or you will have to give up in the first month 22:07
El_Che my point, don't take bad feedback personally. It's a feedback about the effectiveness of a mascot, not about ones work, or ones intention, or talent 22:09
hell, apple is full of designers and they created a laptop that looked like a toilet seat and one like a wastebasket
AlexDaniel no it was a trash can and then a cheese grater 22:10
ah, a laptop?
oh yeah, these actually do look like toilet seats…
Grinnz the first google result for "apple laptop toilet": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBook
El_Che d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/...54tj.large
Grinnz I didn't know they made a laptop version of the eMac :) 22:11
Grinnz or, I guess it was the origin iMac 22:11
El_Che So, to summarize, I respect everyone effort and work --specially woolfie's-- spent on the mascot, I laughed with the 12-years girls anecdote, I am not arguing for chaning the mascot today, but hell will freeze over before I wear a Camelia t-shirt. 22:14
rba Maybe the name change discussion did open our minds so much to think about what all needs to be changed, that we are starting questioning many things. 22:15
El_Che no, I dislike it from the day I saw it
damn, I am the grumpy old man waiving his cane to a butterfly
rba Instead we should focus on the things we have and will stay as they are and use our energy to do things we like.
El_Che for the record, my 2 daughter have dozens of stuffed animals, I always take something when I am abroad on a conference 22:16
Camelia didn't get much love 22:17
they liked suse's and posgres stuff :)
(I mostly buy real ones, but once in a while there are nice things in conferences :) ) 22:18
rba the suse camaeleon is qute though 22:19
postgres stuff toy? what is it?
Grinnz elephant, I would guess 22:20
rba maybe they both have a better „hugability“ :-) 22:21
El_Che blue one 22:22
you can't go wrong with cameleons and elephants
jnthn *sigh* No, the mascot is not up for grabs, if nothing else because it's done a good job of filtering out folks who would make a nuisance of themselves in other ways anyway. By, for example, deciding that just because there's a rename discussion, they can drag in any other thing they might wish were different. 22:56
jdv79 what is happenning?! 23:15
Doc_Holliwood Can I somehow get the name of a constant as a string? I have bunch of statements of the form "take "LEFT_ALT" if $_ +& LEFT_ALT_PRESSED;" 23:28
timotimo m: constant LEFT_ALT = 123; say LET_ALT.VAR.name
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared name:
LET_ALT used at line 1
timotimo m: constant LEFT_ALT = 123; say LEFT_ALT.VAR.name
camelia No such method 'name' for invocant of type 'Int'. Did you mean any of these?
base
none
note
take

in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
timotimo not with constant at least 23:29
jnthn Doc_Holliwood: Maybe an `enum` would be more convenient
timotimo m: enum Keys <LEFT_ALT RIGHT_ALT>; say LEFT_ALT.^name
camelia Keys
timotimo ah, that's the type's name
jnthn That's the type name, but you can ~ it
timotimo m: enum Keys <LEFT_ALT RIGHT_ALT>; say LEFT_ALT.key
camelia LEFT_ALT
timotimo there it is
jnthn Or that :)
Doc_Holliwood oh hi jnthn 23:30
jnthn o/ 23:31
Grinnz jnthn: fwiw, the only person I have seen propose changing camelia other than the P6 (already decided against) was a reddit troll 23:46

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