svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | dev.pugscode.org/
Set by putter on 11 February 2007.
TimToady j 00:01
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cj TimToady: hurm... I should check to see if I've got the right fonts installed then! 00:14
TimToady: what font packages do you recommend? do you run debian? 00:15
TimToady cj: fedora 00:17
if it's a font issue, usually they'll put something consistent for the glyphs they don't have 00:18
but if you're getting gobbledygook, it's probably an encoding issue 00:19
make sure LANG=en_US.UTF-8 for instance 00:20
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putter dinner, bbl 00:25
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offby1 what a coincidence! My cat is eating dinner too 01:16
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svnbot6 r15404 | lwall++ | neglected to convert nameroots to new sym form 01:26
r15404 | lwall++ | generalized syntax to allow "use" before file-scope package declarator
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putter let's see... aliases... 02:18
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|PrinCo| #projectoX la nueva sala en espaƱol para ayuda sobre temas relacionados con windows y linux ;) todo los temas/probemas sera solucionados ;);) 02:48
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mod_cure wonder when Perl6 will be out 02:52
tene mod_cure: christmas
we don't know the year, though
mod_cure i been waiting sinxe 2002 :)
rodi mod_cure: christmas has come like four times since then... 02:54
tene Well, it might be this year!
mod_cure u said that 4 years ago :)
rodi it was as true than as it is now! 02:55
diakopter "is this a rhetorical question?" 03:07
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bucky Randal Schwartz has had his conviction expunged 03:13
revdiablo Source? =) 03:14
Cite your sources!
TreyHarris bucky: !!
bucky it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/0...p;from=rss
lambdabot Title: Slashdot | Randal Schwartz's Charges Expunged
TreyHarris he said something about going to court today
bucky heh
revdiablo Neat 03:15
bucky yah
13 years of prosecutorial persecution
TreyHarris oops. apparently this happened a month ago already 03:17
TreyHarris has been out of the loop
i got spanked for mentioning it on another channel :)
bucky effective 1 Feb 2007 03:18
allbery_b heh 03:19
allbery_b doesn't think he still has the scrollback from when randal popped in here himself and announced it 03:20
bucky BTW thanks to Orrin Hatch and the Patriot Act, the crime of computer intrusion is now punishable to up to a term of life in prison 03:22
cj TimToady: $ echo $LANG 03:24
C
d'oh
bucky heya cj 03:25
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allbery_b hm. wonder how much of a speedup pugs would get if there were a precompiled prelude va Data.Binary? 03:54
cj hey TreyHarris
how's life?
hey there bucky 03:55
what's going on?
cj re-sets his $LANG... BRB
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cj say something in kanji! :) 03:57
bucky cj jan kneschke had a UDF called UDF-mysql_udf_lua-0.9.3.tar.gz do you know anything about it?
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tene Has a trait to indicate caching on a function been specced yet? 05:12
"is cached" or "is memoized" or some such?
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TimToady well, if you just grep the specs for "cached" you might find something 05:17
tene Huh. I thought I did that. 05:19
Thanks. Apology.
TimToady cj: ę¼¢å­—ć§ä½•ć‹ 05:23
putter ah well. downside is still no aliases. upside is some pugs t/regex/ files now run. three even pass. 05:24
svnbot6 r15405 | putter++ | yet_another_regex_engine - Some pugs t/regex/ test files now run. A couple even pass. See README.
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putter TimToady: on reflection, it seem premature to attempt STD on yet_another, which still lacks ratchet, sigspace, etc. maybe in a calendar week or three. 05:28
TimToady whatever, it's just the target
don't stress
putter :) k 05:29
cj bucky: not off the top of my head. I don't even know what UDF might happen to be. Ulf Wendel and Mike Zinner did something with lua at one point... you might google them and ask if they know... 05:34
TimToady: d'oh. I blame putty.
cj makes a late-night diaper run
TimToady putty does utf8 okay
cj hurm... let me twiddle some bits then... 05:35
bucky cj, you know.. User Defined Function
cj TimToady: oh, right... I probably need to install some fancy win32 fonts...
bucky cj, do you work with Brian Acker?
cj bucky: Aker, probably, yes? 05:36
bucky s/Acker/Aker
cj bucky: I work with him on occasion, yes. But I work for Amazon these days, and not MySQL. I switched over in June/July 06
bucky oh.. nm
cj I had a computer in his basement for a couple of years. He's good at providing infrastructure :) 05:37
bucky seems like a cool guy krow.net/index.pl?node_id=32
lambdabot Title: Brian "Krow" Aker Presents: brian
cj TimToady: hurm... Maybe I'm still stuck on the LANG stuff... how do I change my locale from C to en_US.UTF-8? 05:38
TimToady: you did say that it would look like placeholder characters if I don't have the fonts, but have everything else set up correctly, didn't you? 05:39
there's probably a HOWTO around here somewhere, and I shouldn't be bothering you for your precious time :)
TimToady LANG is just an environment variable, so you'd set it in your .bashrc or equivalent 05:41
putty has a menu somewhere to tell it to interpret text as utf8
cj TimToady: woo! That got closer... now I need fonts... 05:43
cj googles kanji win32 fonts
bah. I'll do this later. diapers need getting :) 05:44
putter parting strawman hypothesis: once we have pugs oo and a regex engine, it might be worth doing a javascript implementation to exercise the oo. the js 1.x spec is mechanically convertible to p6 code. there's a years old one-day effort somewhere in misc.
the motivation is we don't have much p6 oo code to exercise the oo implementation. whereas js has a testsuite and assorted code. this might be an approach to shaking down the oo impl mechanically, rather than waiting for average users to trip over the inevitable bugs. 05:46
g'night & 05:47
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gaal audreyt: in general, how closely are we willing to go with the techniques in "Haskell's Overlooked Object System"? (the 2005 paper by Oleg and Ralf) 07:36
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Endymion hiho 08:38
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tene hi! 08:40
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lichtkind good morning your camels :) 08:52
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svnbot6 r15406 | gaal++ | * minor cleanup 09:26
r15406 | gaal++ | (More points-free would have merge_clean simply as "map . filter . (/=)";
r15406 | gaal++ | I don't know if that's clearer.)
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svnbot6 r15407 | gaal++ | * fixed-point golf: get "HOW" and "WHICH" methods on all pure 10:35
r15407 | gaal++ | classes automatically.
buubot Current winner is buu with 85 characters: ZOMG SCARY STUFF
tene ??? 10:37
buubot--
buubot is a potvaliant land-lubber!appeared to work above, right?
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cmarcelo @tell gaal re: mutable classes, dev.pugscode.org/browser/docs/notes...format=raw maybe helpful. 11:16
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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cmarcelo @tell gaal in [15407], how "fix" know when to stop? it's like it is iterating until the function "converges"? 11:45
lambdabot Consider it noted.
gaal @massages 11:46
lambdabot cmarcelo said 29m 42s ago: re: mutable classes, dev.pugscode.org/browser/docs/notes...format=raw maybe helpful.
cmarcelo said 1m 34s ago: in [15407], how "fix" know when to stop? it's like it is iterating until the function "converges"?
gaal cmarcelo: re: fix, lazy evaluation
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gaal I can't find a good explanation online, I remember there was one 11:47
it's pretty !ing, I agree :)
but assuming you grok the Y combinator in principle, think of it as a magical implementation of it 11:48
audreyt fix f = let x = f x in x
lambdabot audreyt: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
audreyt gaal++ # let fix = fix fix in fix! 11:49
fix is not that magical compared to mfix
mfix is mind-bogglingly magical
gaal y my nexy Q for you was whether MutClass should use mfix. :)
if indeed we were to use a monadic class for mutable classes 11:50
audreyt nay they are orthogonal
currently we still use const self
gaal so despite the notes cmarcelo++ linked me to, where does the mutability come from?
audreyt but ^Str.add_method is the same as ^Scalar.add_method 11:51
it comes after we get Pugs.Prim ported
then we augment the "MI" data type
where it only contains a table of methods
cmarcelo gaal: ok.. in some sense it was like I was imagining.. but, what does "!ing" mean? :P
audreyt it will carry a mutable table of methods
shocking
gaal which reminds me, does ByteString have unicode-aware toUpper etc. functions? I was looking for them 11:52
cmarcelo: think Chess notation, where "!" means a surprising and stong move
audreyt gaal: no, and it doesn't need to
hint: use perl5embed
gaal oi 11:53
I knew you'd say that :)
audreyt the p5 unicode core is _nice_
it's just the surface semantic is borderline braindead
but we avoid that
the engine can totally be reused
I consider it saner than linking libICU
and our p5 bridge already is SvUTF8_on()
so should be straightforward to just call uc() on p5 land 11:54
please make some very easy shorthand for that :)
gaal is p5 unicore exposed?
audreyt just call &uc
it should Transparently Work (tm)
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gaal that will also work, but doesn't it entail some overhead? 11:54
audreyt not more than calling a normal p5 function
I wouldn't care that much
also makes augmenting code easier 11:55
you really don't want to write XS at this stage, trust me :)
gaal okay.... the plan is to implement that stuff in Perl 6 evenually, yes?
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audreyt not until several milestones from now 11:55
so no
yes re "eventually"
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audreyt no re "plan" 11:55
of course if you find it fun by all means do it... but I don't think it's sensible to move that much runtime into p6 11:56
C-land stuff is still sensible for Unicode 11:57
gaal well, I mean, how tightly coupled do we want to be with perl5?
audreyt and p5 is as good as any
for the Pugs Haskell+Perl dual runtime
I think forever
gaal okay
audreyt I don't see a good way to do DBI.xs compat 11:58
beyond what we already have
not convinced that "Ponie for Pugs" can work
gaal now, re the Moose thing, picking up last night's thread...
audreyt but glad to be proven wrong by someone eventually :)
ok. the idea is that when you declare
"class Foo { ... }"
in p6-land
gaal does the glue write Moose bridges automoosically?
audreyt it should generate a corresponding perl5 symtable
*perl6::Foo
most likely 11:59
yes, that I think is the plan. it runs Moose bridgecode
gaal there's some old stuff in DrIFT/Perl6Class
audreyt yes, aware of that
I'm still evaluating the possibility of dyld
moritz hey, what about a C to perl 6 translator, and use that on the p5 source code </kidding> ;) 12:00
audreyt that is it generates a genuine Haskell data structure
use ghci to compile it
then byteload it
and drift it
and eval that in p5 land
the gain is that compact structures gets to be really compat
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audreyt but that is optional and not relevant to getting 6.28.0 released 12:00
maybe 6.28.1 or .2
gaal .. is that the libGHC idea mentioned in that note? 12:01
audreyt yes./
gaal ok let me see if I understand the picture
Parse "class {...}" -> Hs code -> ??? -> P5 Moose code -> P5bridge 12:02
audreyt or rather, class {...} generates a series of MO calls
that in turn generates Hs code and p5 moose code 12:03
gaal which are compiled to Hs code?
ah y
audreyt yes
but the 6->5 bridge I intend to do after 5->6
gaal runtime drifiting, heh
audreyt instance Boxable Eval PerlSV -- I want to get this written first
Juerd Anyone in here going to the European hackathon today? 12:04
gaal Juerd: not unless I can borrow a teleporter
audreyt a time machine will also do 12:05
Juerd I'd lend you mine, but I'd need another teleporter for that :)
Otherwise it turns inside out during.
And eventually teleports everything surrounding it, but not itself. 12:06
audreyt if a p5p hacker gets online via dial-up, does that make a teleporter?
Juerd This happened already in some parts of the world. They now drive on the wrong side of the road, as a result.
moritz Juerd: currently I am in such a country... it's not the only thing that changed ;) 12:07
gaal audreyt: so actually the 5->6 is pretty critical now, if we're to delegate much of stringy Prim to it 12:08
I'm not familiar with the existing 5->6 bridge at all 12:09
what does "si" in MO.si stand for?
hmm okay, I'm called off for lunch now... 12:10
(single invocant?)
cmarcelo gaal: single inheritance..
gaal ah, okay :)
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gaal *waves* & 12:10
cmarcelo but si.hs is a file used for testing... :o) 12:11
see you.
gaal (this is a pretty minor detail but we probably want a p5prelude too, to implement things like &capitalize without hitting the bridge muliple times) 12:13
fglock I've been thinking on a low-level p6lib (possibly in C) that could be used by pugs, v6.pm, and also be converted to pmcs too 12:19
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rindolf Hi all! 12:23
Does anyone know what is the channel for the hackathon today?
moritz @seen all 12:25
lambdabot I haven't seen all.
moritz ;)
rindolf: you're out of luck ;)
12:26 rindolf is now known as all, all is now known as rindolf
rindolf Wonder who took the "all" nickname. 12:26
pasteling "cmarcelo" at 200.245.119.10 pasted "error doing 'svk pull' @ feather" (17 lines, 586B) at sial.org/pbot/23256 12:32
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shay hi folks 12:55
cmarcelo, I know that glibc bug 12:56
give me a sec
oh, it's not the same error :/ 13:01
audreyt cmarcelo: maybe pull file:///data/svn/pugs 13:05
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avar says hi to feather's webserver 13:13
cmarcelo hmm.. should //mirror/pugs point to file:///... too? 13:14
it exists already. its //mirror/local :o) 13:17
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Limbic_Region salutations all 14:06
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cmarcelo ola 14:15
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rindolf Hi all! 15:08
So where's the Hackathon IRC channel? 15:09
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moritz rindolf: is that a parrot hackathon? 15:14
rindolf moritz: conferences.yapceurope.org/hack2007nl/ 15:15
lambdabot Title: European Perl Hackathon 2007 - The Netherlands - Home
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rindolf moritz: they also work on Perl 6 and Parrot. 15:15
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bernhard greetings from the hackathon in Arnhem 15:22
fglock bernhard: is there an IRC channel for the hackathon? 15:23
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fglock bernhard: is there an IRC channel for the hackathon? 15:23
bernhard I think we use #hackathon on MagNet irc.perl.org 15:25
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rindolf Hi bernhard 15:34
bernhard Hi 15:36
cj bernhard: what are you hackath on? 15:47
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gaal moose 16:09
svnbot6 r15408 | andara++ | [runpugs]
r15408 | andara++ | -refactoring Server.pm to catch race hazard in preloaded session management.
r15408 | andara++ | -adding testing framework.
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rindolf Hi gaal 16:20
PerlJam The perl.com article on perl 6 has two comments to the effect of "we want lots more perl 6 articles" 16:38
svnbot6 r15409 | andara++ | [runpugs] -cleaning up obsolete files
PerlJam I imagine that's a common sentiment
TimToady 'course, even this one's a little bit wrong. A file starting with 'package' should be considered Perl 5, not Perl 6. Wanted 'module" there... 16:40
gaal hi rindolf. I'm not really here. 16:42
what perl.com article?
kolibrie gaal is tele-porting?
TimToady www.perl.com/pub/a/2007/03/01/perl-...ssing.html
lambdabot Title: perl.com: The Beauty of Perl 6 Parameter Passing, tinyurl.com/2x2opj
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gaal oh, nice. reading... 16:43
kolibrie too
TimToady just be sure to s/package/module/ in your head
other than that, a good article 16:44
gaal human parsers are usually transparently error-correcting. to the chagrin of copyeditors... 16:45
svnbot6 r15410 | fglock++ | PCR - updated TODO 16:50
gaal I'd have mentioned variable declaration and calling converntions were merged; and explained the recommendation against using Perl for numeric computations. 16:54
re-& 16:55
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PerlJam TimToady: I don't know ... I thought the article didn't give enough explanations. 17:01
TimToady I didn't call it an excellent article :)
PerlJam I was going to spend some time playing with parrot/cardinal this weekend but maybe I could cobble together a perl6 article for perl.com or TPR or any other venue that'll have it. 17:03
(Becaise I tend to agree with the commenters that we need more perl 6 articles :-) 17:04
TimToady we do need multiple voices explaining things on various levels
PerlJam s/ais/aus/
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PerlJam The hardest part (for me) would be picking a narrow enough topic to write on. There's just *so* *much* ... stuff in perl 6 :-) 17:06
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kolibrie my problem is forgetting that people are not familiar with Perl 6 syntax 17:07
TimToady and part of the problem is that you're writing for two very different audiences simultaneously 17:08
those who know Perl 5 syntax, and those who don't.
offby1 I would gently suggest: if you cannot please both, then write for the new users, not the old. Assume that, five years from now, more people will be writing perl6 than perl5 (i.e., plan to succeed) 17:10
this from a perl5 user.
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PerlJam offby1++ good advice I think. 17:13
TimToady sure, I agree completely, but...
the downside of it is
if the P5 people perceive that they're being written off, they will also feel free to ignore you 17:14
[particle] say "{ newton(8, \&f, verbose => 1, epsilon => .00005) }";
TimToady and then you get what we see continually in p5p--piecemeal solutions to individual RFC problems
[particle] can \&f be &f?
TimToady why is there a \ in the first place? 17:15
[particle] does &f invoke, or is it just a sigil?
i think it's an error
TimToady the & never invokes in P6
[particle] it's too perl5y
PerlJam I wonder if we shouldn't submit corrections to the author (or the editor) before too many people read that article :)
TimToady also, the say "{...}" is a bit strange since say ... does the same. 17:16
[particle] sometimes thinks of as a twigil in p5 :)
pidgin perl 6
PerlJam [particle]: then you've got something backwards as the \ normally comes first ... \$thing # $ is the "twigil" here
[particle] pj: i know, it's just that \ is used so frequently in p5 that it's twigil-like 17:17
and \ will be used so infrequently in p6, i feel 17:18
in fact, if you need a new twigil, \ could be a candidate
TimToady still and all, I like the way he's doing it better than the way other people aren't doing it. :)
PerlJam :-P
[particle] agreed! i plan on writing a lot of pidgin p6
PerlJam TimToady: will you be around #perl6 later tonight and this weekend? 17:19
TimToady yes, for the most part. have to sneak some $job in there as well though.
PerlJam If my kids don't distract too much, I'll start writing something and I'll want an expert opinion :-) 17:20
speaking of $job ... back to work for me!
[particle] is there a difference between {foo(...)}.say and foo(...).say?
TimToady I'll be glad to give feedback
the first one will try to print a closure instead of calling it? 17:21
{foo(...)}().say would be the same
offby1 ooh! closures print?
TimToady "try to"
offby1 :-(
TimToady ?eval {1+1}.say 17:22
evalbot_r15410 OUTPUT[<SubBlock(<anon>)>ā¤] Bool::True
TimToady ?eval {1+1}().say
evalbot_r15410 OUTPUT[2ā¤] Bool::True
TimToady closures never autocall themselves unless in a calling context of some sort. use as bare statement, use before (), use in regex, etc. 17:23
much like &foo never autocalls itself without context. 17:24
now I'm wondering whether our current module names are sugar for the general adverbial names 17:32
use Foo:v<1.2.3>:auth<JRANDOM> 17:33
use :root<perl5>:DBI:6.0:auth<JRANDOM>:foo<bar>:baz
assuming :6.0 desugars to :v<6.0> or some such
that also would solve the problem of :root<C#> and :root<C++> not being identifiers 17:34
use :DBI<6.0>:root<perl5> shows some other possibilities 17:36
[particle] i like having the root up front 17:37
TimToady use:root<perl5> DBI(:1.2.3, :auth<TBUNCE>) 17:38
[particle] hrmm
with a default root of perl6 17:39
are parens required there? i'll have to check up on that syntax again 17:40
TimToady or do the trick we were doing with :sym<foo> and make use:perl5 mean use:root<perl5> for identifiers
we're talking new syntax here
I'm just trying to think about what really modifies what
[particle] i'm thinking about existing syntax, so see how close the new syntax is
i think the root modifies use, as the import routine will differ based on library language 17:41
TimToady use:<C#> Foo:(...)
use:perl5 DBI:(version => 1.2.*, auth => 'TBUNCE') 17:43
thinking of use:<C#> as more the infix:<*> syntax here
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[particle] use DBI of perl5 is :(version<1.2.3>) 17:45
TimToady couple things wrong with that
perl5 is not a type 17:46
and "is" basically means : already
[particle] i like use:perl5 better anyway
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[particle] use:<perl5> DBI is {version<1.2.*>, author<TBUNCE>} 17:47
cj what benefit do you see the <...> providing?
TimToady anyway, it bugged me that my grammar had to have cplusplus
cj ah. special character escaping?
TimToady <...> quotes
:<C#> 17:48
cj maybe optional?
TimToady yes, optional for ident
:perl5
use:cobol COLLATE_BUSINESS_FORMS 17:49
maybe allow Foo-1.2.3 as sugar, but nothing with - beyond that maybe 17:50
Or just make Foo:1.2.3 work right
[particle] :v1.2.3 wouldn't be horrible 17:51
TimToady would still have to be a special case adverbial form
[particle] hrmm 17:52
TimToady :16<dead_beef> might require brackets, and :16.42 could be version
[particle] don't we have a colon number form for base/radix conversion?
TimToady but it would still have to special-case the . 17:53
just wondering if people will get used to the notion of reading :1.2 as a version
[particle] no, but :v1.2 they might 17:54
or v:1.2
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TimToady :v<1.2> 17:54
hmm, that's just a Pair
[particle] that will work today 17:55
TimToady but
it wants a special syntax to force Version object construction
or we fall into the v-strings fallacy again
[particle] hrmm
can it be typed that way? 17:56
have use accept a param v of type Version
TimToady in context it's a version, but I'm thinking about version literals
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TimToady v1.2.3 would map nicely to :v1.2.3 to use a literal as an option 17:57
but have to think about wildcard version literals 17:58
can get away with v1.2.* at least
but anything more complicated is going to require brackets, and then it starts going strange 17:59
offby1 wonders how IRC will have affected the design of perl6 as compared to perl5
TimToady v({ matchme()}) is just a function call
and :v(...) is just a pair again.
offby1: this seems like apples and oranges to me 18:00
IRC is not a language exactly
what aspect of IRC are you thinking of? 18:01
offby1 just that you're thinking out loud with so many people now
I assume that wasn't the case back in perl5
TimToady oh, I misparsed your sentence entirely 18:02
offby1 I should have used more parens :-)
TimToady IRC wasn't used in the design of Perl 5 at all.
offby1 didn't think it would have been
[particle] versions with idents will definitely be trouble :v1.2.3.beta1
TimToady I only started using IRC in the AP era (after pugs)
[particle] "no such method: beta1" 18:03
offby1 hopes TimToady, [particle], PerlJam, et al don't have aching heads from having so many ideas bounced off them
TimToady so at some point you go :v<1.2.3.beta1>
[particle] right
TimToady but then it's back to a pair, not a version :( 18:04
[particle] so, a V operator?
prefix:<V>
TimToady V '1.2.3.beta1' 18:05
hmm
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TimToady I don't doubt someone will want V for something list infixish 18:05
[particle] that's what multis are for
TimToady just worrying about market confusion 18:06
[particle] call dibs
TimToady it's not pretty enough
[particle] true
TimToady huffmanly, probably Version('1.2.3.beta1') 18:07
[particle] that's boring
TimToady and :v<1.2.3.beta1> where a pair will be interpreted as a version
[particle] that works 18:08
TimToady so Version() only used in normal code for weird version names
[particle] where versions are expected, the syntax is compact. for other reasons, you're penalized appropriately
TimToady and :v contexts really just feed the :v argument to Version()
[particle] s/reasons/uses/
yop 18:09
it's got my vote
TimToady wonders if v1.2.3.beta1 would still become an unfortunate faq
[particle] just give them enough rope 18:10
this is only a problem in locales with . as a num sep 18:11
is whitespace following a list sep , required? 18:12
eval? (1,2,3).say
?eval (1,2,3).say 18:13
evalbot_r15410 OUTPUT[123ā¤] Bool::True
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[particle] so v1,2,3,beta1 has *other* problems 18:14
TimToady we ignore the num sep cultural problem, basically, and practice cultural imperialism on that point (no pun intended) 18:18
[particle] it's unlike you not to intend a pun 18:19
the low-coffee diet is affecting your humour
TimToady well, it was unintended only up to the point that I noticed it. :) 18:20
at any rate, we simply can't have the meaning of comma flapping in the cultural breeze.
at best maybe we can recognize 1,2 and give a warning if things go wrong later. but I don't know that 1,2 would cause things to go wrong later soon enough for the compiler to notice 18:22
[particle] i18n is still on the horizon, anyway
TimToady I think we're already past the event horizon on that one, though a lot of p5p still thinks they can continue to send messages to the outside universe as long as they like 18:23
but the universe has changed, and Unicode is the new simplicity 18:24
and yes, I smile when I say that...
[particle] dingbat 18:28
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TimToady to zapf and beyond! 18:28
but in the overall scheme of things Unicode really is a simplification in the same sense that Perl was a simplification of Unix, a complex set of trees, but a smaller forest 18:34
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TimToady but in general people can only perceive the complexity of the bit of forest they can see from where they stand 18:44
"can't see the forest for the trees" as some folks put it 18:45
most of p5p is perpetually in that state
shower & 18:46
[particle] they're picking the bark off of all the trees so they can see more of the forest
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fglock trying to see the tree - concentrate on a single problem and fix it 19:00
19:02 explorer joined
[particle] with pcr, mp6, kp6 etc? 19:02
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fglock [particle]: yeah - I'm trying to figure out a plan 19:03
kp6-perl5 is powerful, but it's almost another language, incompatible with cpan modules 19:04
v6.pm OTOH, is too perl5 in many cases
[particle] heh 19:05
fglock pcr should really be written in p6, but it would be much better if this were coordinated by pmichaud or audreyt, IMO 19:06
other kp6 backends (C, C++) seem to be dead ends, though some code could be reusable by parrot 19:10
C would still be nice to have for fast small programs 19:11
[particle] it'd be nice to have a shared regex lib to embed in a browser 19:12
p6cre 19:13
fglock I think pmichaud was working on one, before starting PGE
mm - PCR-on-MP6-on-C ? 19:14
I wonder if it's reasonable to require the host program to provide the object system and memory allocation 19:16
[particle] you might target .net then
fglock a C lib would probably require a huge API specification 19:17
[particle] yes
fglock yes, but then it seems reasonable to use PCR-on-p6 -> dotnet 19:19
re kp6, I noticed that mp6 can be implemented with even less features (and be much more portable) 19:26
[particle] is it worth doing? 19:27
fglock namespaces and pads are better represented as objects than native things - this gives much more p6-ish closures
[particle]: parrot already does this, to some extent 19:28
and the Haskell implementation 19:29
it's probably the way to go
but then, this is one of the things that make kp6-perl5 incompatible with cpan 19:31
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fglock a compiled kp6 program would look like an ast, with Closure objects pointing to native code 19:36
an OO version of m-expressions (is there a name for this?) 19:37
it's just one indirection level, but this kills the performance in p5 19:39
ruoso fglock, may I talk to you in private? 19:40
fglock sure
19:41 rindolf joined
fglock the solution would be a smart compiler that would desugar as much as possible to native p5/.net/jvm/parrot 19:45
ruoso fglock, did you receive my privmsg or freenode just didn't deliver?
fglock and keep the difficult parts as plain oo
ruoso: I dit - I think I can't msg back - can you try google chat? 19:46
ruoso you mean gtalk?
[particle] /nickserv identify <user> <pass>
fglock one sec...
ruoso: I sent a ping 19:49
ruoso nop... but if you have gtalk you can add ruoso at jabber.org and talk to me directly
19:49 eric__ joined 19:59 putter joined
putter fglock: re what to work on, so how do you see the future of PCR? 20:01
putter ponders [ $2:=(a) ]*
20:04 jisom joined, the_dormant joined 20:05 jisom left, jisom joined
TimToady $2 ends up with an array of a, I expect 20:09
putter ah, ok. tnx 20:10
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fglock putter: ping 20:28
20:32 GabrielVieira joined
putter pong 20:43
fglock putter: re PCR
putter listens attentively 20:44
fglock :)
putter ;)
fglock it will likely keep the API, but some things can improve
nothingmuch BAM!
oh crap, i lost my moment... i was going to make everyone bounce
putter notes loud noises rendered as text are somewhat less startling than the original 20:45
fglock the compiler needs an ast processing step
access to p5 lexicals could be improved 20:46
putter has it been run against parrots rx_* tests? 20:47
fglock some things need to be rethought, like the haskell backend
yes, some of them pass
putter :)
20:48 drupek12212157 joined
putter other thoughts? 20:48
fglock improving the compiler and adding functionality are orthogonal
but only to some extent 20:49
like: <rule> <rule> - the compiler needs to detect this and arrange for array storage
the TODO list is huge 20:50
it's bigger than just failing tests 20:51
putter bigger in what way?
fglock several XXX and ??? places in the source are not detected as test failures, which means we need more tests 20:52
putter oh yeah 20:53
for a lot of the alias stuff, there isn't a single test case anywhere. :(
perhaps we should write a "we need more regex tests regards X" wish list? 20:55
what else might be done to improve things?
"things" == "big picture", aside from TODO 20:56
fglock I've been looking for a DFA implementation
putter to generate test cases?
fglock documenting the regex AST
putter makes sense, what else? 20:57
fglock creating a benchmark directory, for tests regarding algorithms 20:58
some things are already in the TODO list, like adding the p5regex backend to the distro
putter re benchmark. ?? like optimization tests? "dont search where you know there isnt a character you need" kinds of tests? 20:59
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fglock yes - there are several things, like - how much faster is it to compile to p5regex than pure-perl5 - when is it worth to change mode 21:01
and - is it worth to use XS here
putter that ones easy... "Is it worth using XS?" "No, until proven otherwise". ;) 21:02
fglock reimplement the compiler in p6, and compile it back to p5 21:03
then, pugs could probably use the p6 version directly 21:04
putter re ->p5, yeah. I was wondering if we could special case the nodes, pragma "straight to p5", so we don't take the moose performance hit.
fglock remove the Parse::Yapp dependency - we could use a p6 version 21:05
re Moose, we can use mp6
mp6 == no dependencies
putter mp6 faster than moose? 21:06
fglock sure - it's much simpler
putter (I should have said "hypothetical rumored moose performacne hit")
k
hmmm
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[particle] anything that hits a moose is likely to suffer performance problems 21:07
fglock of course, mp6 is uglier than a moose
putter unless performance is measured in running-away-from-irritated-moose velocity 21:08
re uglier, oh my, that's a scary thought
;)
[particle] what's uglier, pugs or moose? 21:09
rindolf fglock: mp6 == mod_perl6?
fglock "MiniPerl6" 21:10
[particle] somebody here has been smoking crack
TimToady pugses are ugly enough that they wrap around the backside to cute. not sure mooses make it that far around...
[particle] great, now i'm picturing mooses backsides
fglock MiniPerl6 - imagine a pugs without hair
putter lol
gaal @google pretty moose 21:11
lambdabot www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...opic=88674
Title: The ghost moose of Maine. - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums
putter oh my
gaal "The sight of him is so frightening, he once scared a bicyclist up a tree." 21:12
putter "a moose version of Moby Dick"
"what will your language earn thee in Nantucket market"
21:14 drupek12212157 joined
gaal
.oO( St. Antler's Fire )
 21:14
putter groan
fglock OTOH, PCR didn't get to the point of full-spaghetti yet (unlinke v6-pm emitter) - so it's probably fixable 21:15
putter "point of full-spaghetti" concept++
gaal fixed point of full gnocci 21:16
putter "well modularized software is like raviolli"
fglock some software architecture work would be nice
gnocci is like little modules 21:17
[particle] better than java beans 21:18
putter some systems are just a shell with no meat
[particle] i prefer mine hand rolled
gaal there's that chapter or three where he just talks about taxonomy of whales and stuff 21:19
that's like the meta model but tedious
putter lol, hard
bbiab 21:20
gaal bb after sunrise &
fglock weekend starts now for me 21:21
TimToady is that good or bad? 21:24
fglock I miss being online - but going to the beach is great 21:25
converting PCR to use the compiler tools in kp6 should be easy - but it would be better if mp6 were in cpan 21:26
not sure if publishing mp6 is a good thing
[particle] there's one way to find out 21:27
fglock ok - I've got to close the place here and go home & 21:29
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putter the room echos emptily 22:37
22:38 stevan_ joined
tene rooms full of stuff usually don't echo very well. 22:38
putter :)
& 22:44
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