Upgrade to YAML::Syck 0.85 before smoking | moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/ | pugscode.org | sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4)) | "Perl 6 Today" video from YAPC::Asia: xrl.us/v6op
Set by agentzh on 1 May 2007.
[particle] it is SLOOOOOWWWW 00:00
in fact it just timed out
TimToady same here
so maybe something on feather end
[particle] likely
TimToady there are now 4 copies of commitbit running on feather 00:01
[particle] what are the anglicized japanese words for plan and ok?
TimToady 3 in R state
[particle] eew
TimToady well, "puran" and "ookei" are both understood, but of course they have lots of other words 00:03
geoffb How does a word containing r and l together get converted? For example, how would a native Japanese speaker pronounce "url" or for that matter "perl"? 00:05
pasteling "[particle]" at 144.81.84.216 pasted "japanese imports ;-)" (19 lines, 494B) at sial.org/pbot/24640 00:07
geoffb [particle]: You switched them? Evil. 00:08
[particle] parrot++
i'm writing an example of subclassing the Exporter PMC i recently created 00:09
TimToady depends on whether the r is vocalic or not. English vocalic r just results in lengthening so that perl comes out "paaru"
I don't know how they pronounce "url" 00:10
00:11 prism joined, veritos joined
TimToady 'course, you should really spell them ćƒ—ćƒ©ćƒ³ and OK to match typical usage... 00:13
[particle] my irc client no likey unicode 00:14
veritos [particle]: what client 00:15
[particle] trillian
veritos ah, i see. mirc maybe a better bet?
DarkWolf84 it's fine in my client
[particle] is that win-friendly?
veritos yeah
DarkWolf84 I use Xchat
[particle] hrmm, does it do aim/yahoo/msn as well? 00:16
veritos [particle]: no :( meebo.com for those tho
DarkWolf84 no but it do irc well
I don't know katakana but I think ćƒ—ćƒ©ćƒ³ is pronounce paru not paaru 00:21
TimToady that's "plan" 00:22
00:22 veritos left
DarkWolf84 oh fine my mistake 00:23
TimToady paaru would be ćƒ‘ćƒ¼ćƒ«
DarkWolf84 i saw the little circle on the first chana 00:24
TimToady but almost certainly spelled "Perl" since it's a proper name
DarkWolf84 and make mistake 00:25
00:25 bonesss joined
DarkWolf84 and made mistake* 00:26
my english again
May be is's time lo learn katakana 00:28
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TimToady basically, there are three makes running on feather right now... 00:34
so the load avg is bouncing between 10 and 17
and it appears that jifty can't wake up commitbit fast enough (or vice versa) to respond in what firefox thinks is a timely fashion 00:35
agentzh++ for running his make niced 00:38
well, I reniced karhu's background make, and the load avg dropped to 9, but after 50 cpu seconds commitbit still can't make my firefox happy, so there must be some spinlocking or some such contention going on 00:56
I note that there seems to be two base copies of commitbit running, so maybe one is blocking the other 00:57
I'm giving up for now. Need a commitbit expert... 00:59
[particle] obra: ping
hrmm, actually i think it was audrey who did that coding 01:00
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audreyt looking into it (commitbit). 01:28
davidfetter waves to audreyt 01:30
audreyt hi. 01:31
obra really needs to find the cycles for another round of commitbit hacking 01:32
I removed 30% of the code last week. about 3 more hours and I'll have something that hrts less than what we have today 01:33
rhr re pipes: I'm thinking $io = Pipe.to/from: "cmd" for auto-fork+exec; ($r, $w) = Pipe.pair for no-fork; ($proc, $r, $w) = Pipe.fork for auto-fork without exec. Is that a good interface? 01:38
avar is there any debugger for perl6 yet? 01:42
audreyt avar: no, currently there's only pugs -d which is more of a tracer than a debugger
avar ;(
audreyt a debugger for Pugs.Eval can be done rather painlessly by introducing a new argument to envEval 01:43
i.e. swap out the current tracer with something that resembles the interactive shell
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avar are there any modulen in p6 on cpan? how would I go about adding some?:) 01:55
language: in META.yml would be neato:){
audreyt :D yes. 01:56
geoffb audreyt: back just to fix commitbit, or back for a while? 01:59
Yaakov audreyt: Hello! 02:05
audreyt: Will you be at YAPC::NA this year?
audreyt Yaakov: unfortunately no. will be at oscon though. 02:07
Yaakov Ah. Well, that's a disappointment. I was hoping to see you. Maybe next year.
gnuvince_ audreyt: Quick note, the YAPC::Asia presentation was amazing 02:08
audreyt geoffb: yes, back just to fix commitbit... maybe back for a while. but need to get some sleep first (3hr.)
gnuvince_: thanks. I was actually having a nervous breakdown of sorts toward the end
but the presentation slides themselves is I'd say not bad :)
geoffb Yes, please, do sleep!
gnuvince_ Really? I must admit I did not notice. I guess the material was too absorbing :)
Yaakov audreyt: I hope you are well. I watched your very compact YAPC::Asia video. I was enjoyable.
audreyt danke. 02:09
Yaakov Heh, "it", of course.
rhr indeed, that was a great talk
Yaakov Though I hope I am also enjoyable occasionally.
gnuvince_ I made a joke on your blog about the number of slides you have in your presentation, but I thought that it actually helped.
It really "flowed" well
audreyt oh yes. it's all about the subtle subconsciousness hints and brainwashing 02:10
gnuvince_ :)
audreyt glad you enjoyed it :) really glad :)
audreyt restarts apache and hope it fixes commitbit
Yaakov audreyt: Sleep well. 02:11
rhr I was also thinking it would be cool if there were some way to specify arbitrary io redirection for things like system, Pipe.to/from, etc. without having to do close/dup/fork/whatever by hand, or getting into weird sh syntax 02:20
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rhr something like: system "cmd", :ioredirect( :stdin($some_io), :stderr('/dev/null'), :fd42($secret_channel, :r) ) Is that too unwieldy? 02:22
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agentzh Hmm, i see 4 broken smartlinks appear over the night. anyone here willing to offer a quick fix? ;) 04:09
auto-smoking on feather tends to take many hours recently :( 04:13
Juerd: 1:00 ~ 4:00 AM (feather localtime) is a very busy time period for the feather world? 04:14
rhr another IO question: is there a way to do io to/from a variable (both scalars and lists)? 04:29
example: $decrypted_data = Pipe.from "gpg --passphrase-fd 3", :ioredirect( :fd3( IO.fromstr($passphrase) ) ) 04:30
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rhr yet another: IO.tee(IO) to link output streams, e.g. $*ERR.tee($logfile) 04:59
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TimToady rhr: we will probably end up doing most such IO redirections using feed operators. 06:26
(commitbit finally sent, by the way)
rhr got it, $thanks xx 1e6 06:30
how would that work with a feed? 06:31
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TimToady io("filespec") ==> $variable kinda things 06:38
Alias_ TimeToady: For a second there I thought you'd gotten involved with CommitBit :) 06:39
TimToady nah, just wondering why feather wasn't keeping up, mainly. as soon as the going got tough, I quit... 06:40
rhr ah, that's a better way to do that. what do you think of the whole :ioredirect thing? 06:41
TimToady seems a bit heavy 06:42
but doubtless something like that is going on underneath, even if we have the notation convenience of feed ops 06:43
moritz TimToady: yesterday I saw a pice of rubbish on eweek.com (iirc) titled "the 100 most influential people in it", you were no. 100 ;) 06:44
TimToady basically, the feeds can give us directionality, but can't establish the type of the io handle
yeah, I'm just famous for almost being not famous 06:45
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moritz TimToady: which means you don't have to spend too much time in interviews, so you can do more perl stuff ;) 06:47
rhr actually, I don't quite see how your feed example would work in my gpg example. How would you declare an IO object that reads from a scalar, but could be passed as an fd to a child process? 06:49
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rhr or should you have to do the piping explicitly? 06:53
TimToady my guess is that feeds can handle the ordinary connection of one thing's stdout to the next thing's stdin, but you'd have to use adverbs to modify stderr and extra fds
io(...) ==> run("cmd") ==> $result for instance 06:54
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rhr yeah, that would get rid of the clunky syntax in most cases 06:54
TimToady io(...) ==> run("cmd", :err</tmp/foo>) ==> $result for instance 06:55
something like that
alas, my eyes are going crossed
so I should probably turn in for the night 06:56
Alias_ accidentally encountered the $foo = { $^a }; notation today in a Perl6:: module, is that still in the Perl 6 language?
TimToady yes
Alias_ where it makes the { } block into sub ($a) { $a }
It feels ... wrong... 06:57
TimToady well, except not a real sub
Tene Alias_: howso?
TimToady more like -> $a { $a }
Alias_ or inelegant, or something
Tene: I'm not entirely sure
I think possibly that I could see them getting too seperated form the subject of their impact to remain not-confusing
$foo = { $^a ... 25 lines of code ... $^b } 06:58
TimToady the subject of their impact?
06:58 SubStack joined
TimToady "doctor, it hurts when I do this..." 06:58
Alias_ Their impact is to transform the block to a sub and modify the argument list
TimToady placeholders are for little blocks, not big blocks
they're for when the order of params is obvious
Alias_ When was the last time people didn't take a good idea way too far :)
TimToady if it hurts to use them, use -> instead 06:59
Alias_ Lets just say I could see MYSELF being tempted into abusing them thusly :)
TimToady when was the last time I prevented them from it?
:)
Alias_ I think also that maybe it was that there's two effects, not one
TimToady I think the culture will enforce a reasonable balance here
Alias_ the sub'ification and the argument addition
Honestly, I find it hard to put a precise argument in place 07:00
TimToady no, it's already a block
Alias_ ah
maybe it was the docs then
TimToady $a = { ... } is just the same, only defaults to $_
Alias_ Seemed to imply a double effect
And that without a $^a the { } was not a sub
TimToady it's not really a sub with either... 07:01
Alias_ (in perl5 parlance)
TimToady if you return from it, it doesn't see those curlies
Alias_ One of these days I need to sit down and read the Perl 6 syntax stuff end to end
Tene Alias_: you can do horribly twisted things with macros, too.
TimToady shh!
Alias_ macros just seem like syntactic sugar for currying to make C coders more at home
TimToady Lisp, actually... :)
Alias_ right 07:02
Alias_ is also learning a little Oz atm
Tene Alias_: if you want the language to prevent you from doing awkward things when you explicitly want to, perl isn't the language for you. ;)
Alias_ I couldn't help thinking that Oz needed TimToady's linguistic touch to it
It's nice, but it's terminology feels hideous to me
TimToady the main reason P6 has macros is that P5 has source filters.
Alias_ ya 07:03
And don't think I'm not supremely greatful we're killing source filters
grateful
TimToady and a common p6 theme is reducing the scope of damage in every dimension possible, including grammatical
Alias_ ya
Tene Hmm... could we implement source filters in p6? ;)
TimToady if something doesn't scope right, it's probably indicative of a missing scoping concept 07:04
shh!
.oO(don't anyone tell Tene that you could implement "use Python" in p6...)
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TimToady well, now my mouth is flopping open, so 07:08
zzz &
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rhr to answer my own question, I guess it would look like my IO $pphr = io <== $passphrase; $decrypted_data = Pipe.from: "gpg --passphrase-fd $pphr.fileno()"; 07:25
so maybe there's no need for more sugar
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goban guys i want to learn perl, but should i start with perl 5 or wait til 6 comes out? 07:48
Alias_ Perl 5 07:49
goban also i know there is no official date but is there an estimate how long?
wolverian yup. it won't be a wasted effort.
goban k thanks
moritz goban: nobody knows when perl6 will be final, so don't wait until then
Alias_ goban: Next yearish
not this christmas, but some christmas
moritz cause every day will be christmas once p6 is out ;) 07:50
goban fed up with java after starting a game server in it :(
moritz well, servers are not always the best start ;)
Alias_ hmm 07:51
moritz but learning perl is never a bad idea ;)
Alias_ I think I might go home early today and work on my repository issues
goban yeah was a tough first project but it runs many games and has a good GUI :)
Alias_ goban: Perl is basically a "get stuff done" language
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Alias_ no nonsense, no pretentions, fast development, not always as low level as you'll need for some tasks 07:52
moritz goban: a good place to start with many links is this one: perl-begin.org/
lambdabot Title: Perl Beginners' Site
Alias_ But Perl isn't afraid to let you use other languages where appropriate
goban yeah watching the perl 6 today video and excited about classes, fp, being able to use haskell/other stuff ...
Alias_ Speaking of which I need to get Oz.pm working
or released or something 07:53
Tene goban: well, quite a bit of Perl 6 is available now.
dduncan Alias_, what does that do? 07:55
Alias_ dduncan: Wrapper for the Mozart Oz compiler 07:57
Which is a fairly neat multi-paradigmic language that seems like a cleaner and more usable language for logic/constraint programming than Prolog :) 07:58
And also apparently has built-in network-transparent parrelism support
dduncan okay
moritz sounds quite cool ;)
Alias_ I have a constraint problem in a project I'm working on, and Perl isn't really going to cut it 07:59
moritz yaltl - yet another language to learn
Alias_ So I'm looking for a good language to write logic programs in
moritz, I try to only learn languages when I have a concrete problem I can't solve effectively in any languages I already know
I started "coding" with HTML, then learnt JavaScript when I hit the limits of HTML, then learned Perl when I hit the limits of JavaScript 08:00
Ignoring some basic of several variations in childhood
Juerd No, PM 08:01
Alias_ ?
Juerd Eh
Is for agentzh, but he isn't here so the nick completion didn't work :)
Alias_ ah
Alias_ googles for "programming language PM" and got www.wall.org/~larry/pm.html 08:02
moritz Alias_: I learned a wide variety of languages, partly because I needed them, or other sucked for the job I wanted to do, or because they were used in school/university
Alias_ I try to avoid learning new languages as such
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moritz Alias_: and I quite like learning new languages - as long as I have enough time ;) 08:02
Alias_ I just try to get enough of a feel to slot them into my mental database of "what things are good for" 08:03
hrm 08:05
Alias_ fixes YAML::Tiny bugs
Empty Comments: check
Hash Keys With Spaces: check
Now I just have yet another module that works on my laptop but isn't released due to repository-fu 08:06
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flyby5 The news is that our beloved Head of Freenode Staff _christel_ works together with the anti Rob Levin network OFTC now to fight against trolls. 11:56
And all your donations are used to pay a lawyer, so that Freenode can be a home of script kiddies like trelane, while people with justified complaints are removed.
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Limbic_Region salutations all 12:02
12:03 fglock joined
Limbic_Region ?seen audreyt 12:10
lambdabot audreyt is in #haskell and #perl6. I last heard audreyt speak 9h 59m 54s ago.
Limbic_Region ok, good
moritz oh, lambdabot recognizes commands starting with '?'? 12:12
that's rather new, isn't it?
svnbot6 r16158 | fglock++ | Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm - fixed a few mismatched brackets 12:18
r16159 | fglock++ | [PCR] 12:21
r16159 | fglock++ | - regex grammar: added <rule: string...> and <rule( params, ... ) syntax
r16159 | fglock++ | - new ast node 'call'
r16159 | fglock++ | - rules can have positional parameters
r16159 | fglock++ | - "Whatever" {*}
r16159 | fglock++ | - fixed ratchet quantifier - rollback .pos on fail
r16159 | fglock++ | - added an initial double-quoted parser
r16159 | fglock++ | - allow aliasing to a literal
r16160 | fglock++ | [v6.pm]
r16160 | fglock++ | - grammar - added prefix:<|>
r16160 | fglock++ | - added: proto token rx { ... }
r16160 | fglock++ | - fixed signature parsing
r16160 | fglock++ | - added: Module::CompileV6
r16160 | fglock++ | - fixed unicode << ... >> parsing
r16160 | fglock++ | - allow [ ... ] as regex delimiter 12:22
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moritz fglock: are you working on STD.pm in order to use it in kp6? 12:23
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fglock moritz: there are several possibilities, 12:28
STD -> pugs is one likely target,
12:29 iblechbot joined
fglock but STD -> v6.pm -> perl5 could work 12:30
( STD -> kp6 -> mp6 -> Any ) would be nice, but the kp6 project is not good enough yet 12:31
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moritz from what I've read the regex integration of pugs is not so very well developed atm 12:32
fglock the plan is to desugar regexes into perl6 code, 12:34
like mp6 does
"token" is a macro in mp6 12:35
moritz so you want to use kp6 for desugaring, so that pugs can parse its output?
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Zaba No. In the foreseeable future all Perl 6 programs will require the resources of the Parrot engine. (in official FAQ) 12:39
is it true?
fglock will likely use PCR for parsing, and write a PCR-Pugs backend 12:40
Zaba hm ok
fglock Zaba: don't know
moritz Zaba: since there can be an arbitrary number of perl6 implementations that statement is just a guess 12:41
Zaba hm 12:42
is the test suite included in official pugs distribution?
fglock v6.pm currently chokes at two methods in STD; the regexes parse ok
moritz Zaba: it's not ready yet, and it lacks generallity... 12:43
Zaba isn't v6.pm for perl5?
moritz Zaba: but it's in the pugs repository under t/
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Zaba okok 12:43
fglock Zaba: yes, it is a perl6-in-perl5 12:44
Zaba and i'm about pugs
fglock re STD: the problems are in 'method heredoc' and 'method EXPR' 12:45
Zaba: 'pugs' is perl6-in-haskell, 'Pugs' is the project which includes many other goodies 12:47
Zaba yeah
fglock moritz: re STD - but running 'regex' macros in pugs requires some libraries, that are not written yet 12:50
moritz fglock: ok, thanks
rindolf Hi all. 12:52
Hi fglock, moritz, Zaba
Zaba moin
rindolf Zaba: moin moin 12:56
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moritz hi rindolf ;) 13:05
rindolf moritz: what's up?
I'm going out to bike soon.
fglock ?eval macro token ( $a ) { ' "macro returned " ~ ' ~ $a } token '123' 13:07
13:07 evalbot_r16152 is now known as evalbot_r16157
evalbot_r16157 "macro returned 123" 13:07
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moritz rindolf: not much, having vacations at my girlfriend's... 13:08
Zaba slaps GHC around with a industrial-strength trout with nuclear fishhead, super ultra dragon plus(tm) 13:10
moritz Zaba: did ghc survive?
;-)
Zaba moritz, i hope
NO
sux 13:27
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Zaba why does ghc lag so much? 13:36
moritz what do you mean by "lag"? 13:38
that it takes long to compile something?
how much memory does your computer have?
Limbic_Region moritz - perhaps you missed Zaba's departure 13:42
13:49 fglock left
moritz Limbic_Region: I did... I /ignore joins and leaves, that's too much line noise IMHO ;) 13:51
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mj41_ Hi, so I definitely lost my commit passwd . User name rootmj ( rootmj_konf <a_t> seznam.cz ). Audrey once tried to changed it, but it didn't work. Any sugestions? 14:01
14:01 vel joined
moritz do you want a new username? 14:02
14:02 Arathorn joined 14:04 veritos joined
mj41_ yes, i don't care. I prefer mj41 14:05
you can user email rootmj <a_t> seznam.cz , thanks
veritos we giving you a commit bit? 14:06
moritz why not?
veritos i'm just asking if that's what's happening. 14:07
Zaba hmm
ghc sucks
veritos Zaba: why now
moritz I'm trying, but I can't reach commitbit.pugscode.org
track seems to be down as well :(
Zaba veritos, lags the whole system
moritz Zaba: not enough memory? 14:08
Zaba moritz, no, just does
even on few-liners
[particle] moritz: timtoady and i haven't been able to reach commitbit since yesterday 14:09
kolibrie I wonder if that is part of the stuff Juerd disabled - though I think he was only trying to disable trac
[particle] even via svn.pugscode.org:9999 it's timing out
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moritz mj41_: then I can't help you atm, sorry :) 14:10
kolibrie I am almost getting something for svn.pugscode.org:9999, but feather's load is at 14, so it's not finishing 14:11
moritz now I reached the web page, and submitted the data 14:12
mj41_: please tell me if an email reached you
veritos anyways, welcome to our little project. 14:13
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Zaba pugs: user error (*** *** Can't locate strict.pm in @*INC (@*INC contains: /usr/lib64/perl6/x86_64-linux /usr/lib64/perl6 /usr/lib64/perl6/site_perl/x86_64-linux /usr/lib64/perl6/site_perl /usr/lib64/perl6/auto/pugs/perl6/lib /usr/lib64/perl6/site_perl/auto/pugs/perl6/lib .). 14:21
14:21 goban joined
Zaba mh 14:22
14:22 vel6608 joined
Zaba is it wrong to use strict;? 14:22
ayrnieu seems like a reasonable Perl6 error. What's wrong?
zaba - 'use v6;'
Zaba is it wrong to use strict; in perl6?
ayrnieu, i'm using pugs, do i really need?
kolibrie Zaba: yes, strict is on by default 14:23
'use strict' will fail
Zaba okay
no need to use v6; in pugs?
it's aready v6 -,-
kolibrie it is nice to specify 'use v6' or 'use v6-alpha' so that you know it is a perl 6 program 14:24
required, of course, if you are using v6.pm
ayrnieu Which also allows perl5s to fail nicely, after perl6 starts to go by binaries named 'perl' and people shebang accordingly.
he set it on fire as a sacrifice to the gods of sticking to a set budget. 14:26
mischan.
Zaba hm
ayrnieu, does it need pugs in shebang atm? 14:27
ayrnieu It needs whatever binary you installed, which is probablt 'pugs'.
14:27 amnesiac joined
kolibrie unless you call it as 'pugs script.pl' 14:27
Zaba hm ok 14:28
kolibrie since I use pugs and v6.pm, I rarely put in the shebang line
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riffraff hi 14:37
someone has an idea on why if I do "use Test" from interactive pugs I get *** user error (*** 14:38
Unexpected "(@"
?
moritz riffraff: set PERL6LIB correctly
Zaba riffraff, i got undef 14:39
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moritz that is, to blib/lib/ of the pugs repository 14:39
Zaba pugs 6.2.13 though
riffraff moritz, was this needed two weeks ago? I don't remeber ever doing that 14:40
and I gues is blib6/lib, right? 14:41
Zaba is 6.2.13 old? 14:42
moritz riffraff: no, it was not needed
and blib6/lib/, yes
riffraff Zaba, I am on the development version, I think you are on the last release
Zaba riffraff, o'rly? 14:43
riffraff moritz, I see thank you
14:43 amnesiac joined
moritz np 14:43
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riffraff would it make sense if I implement Str.subst as a dummy "make local copy, use s//" and commit it? 14:50
it is annoying that it is missing but I suck at haskell hacking more than I do at perl's, and this is telling a lot 14:51
TimToady eventually we'll want everything implemented in Prelude.pm, even if circular 14:53
then various implementations can optimize more or less of that into lower-level code
and break the circularity 14:54
nothingmuch's "circularity saw"
so that would be fine
riffraff yay 14:55
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Zaba shall i change my isp? 15:00
eh.. 15:02
hmm
is there socket library for perl6?
yet*
or..
riffraff by the way, I remeber a Pattern role, is there also a Replacement thingy, covering the things that can be used in substitution (or maybe substitution-like things that I can't imagine now) ? 15:03
Zaba hmm 15:05
how does s/// work in perl6?
TimToady Zaba: you can get at most p5 libraries by saying "use perl5:Socket" currently
Zaba ah ok
TimToady, it's IO::Socket btw
thanks 15:06
TimToady s/// works the same as long as you don't use brackets
the bracketed form wants a pseudo assign for the 2nd half
s[foo] = "bar"
Zaba ok 15:07
TimToady ?eval $_ = "1 2 3"; s:g[\d+] += 42; $_
15:07 evalbot_r16157 is now known as evalbot_r16160
evalbot_r16160 \"1 2 3" 15:07
TimToady hmm, yeah, that was broken for some reason...
?eval $_ = "1 2 3"; s:g[2] += 42; $_ 15:08
15:08 vel joined
evalbot_r16160 \"1 44 3" 15:08
TimToady something wrong with \d+ in evalbot, probably thinks generating Unicode aware \d is unsafe 15:09
?eval $_ = "1 2 3"; s:g[<[0..9]>+] += 42; $_ 15:11
evalbot_r16160 \"1 2 3"
TimToady ?eval $_ = "1 2 3"; s:g[ [ 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 ]+ ] += 42; $_ 15:12
evalbot_r16160 \"43 44 45"
TimToady hmm, now that I recall, it was more on the order of not returning the match pos correctly 15:13
ah well
svnbot6 r16161 | karhu++ | Greatly fixed perlintro. 15:14
r16162 | mj41++ | [util/PaP6-testing] 15:17
r16162 | mj41++ | * fix some bugs, some cleanup
r16162 | mj41++ | * die -> croak
r16162 | mj41++ | * document verbose level
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moritz karhu++ #good job 15:33
riffraff is it possible to make a regex into a string? 15:58
interpolation just gives "<Regex>"
moritz perhaps .perl? 15:59
doesn't work atm in pugs 16:00
?eval my $a=regex {\d+}; $a.perl
evalbot_r16160 "\\\{regex}" 16:01
riffraff because I don't know how to use a regex object in s, so I was trying s/$rgx/rplcement/ but it cannot interpolate.. thought of converting to str
now I understand the problem is much deeper
avar ?eval my $a = token { \d+ } ; ("123" ~~ $a).perl
moritz avar: that's just the Match object 16:02
avar ya
evalbot_r16160 *** Cannot parse regex: :ratchet(1)[ \d+ ]ā¤*** Error: ā¤"Match.new(\n ok => Bool::False, \n from => 0, \n to => 0, \n str => \"\", \n sub_pos => (), \n sub_named => \{}\n)" 16:03
moritz ?eval my $s='\d+'; m/<$s>/ ~~ "123"
riffraff I think a regexen object doesn't hold a copy of the string it was created from 16:04
but it should, imo
evalbot_r16160 *** Cannot parse regex: <$s>ā¤*** Error: ā¤Match.new(ā¤ ok => Bool::False, ā¤ from => 0, ā¤ to => 0, ā¤ str => "", ā¤ sub_pos => (), ā¤ sub_named => {}ā¤)
moritz riffraff: at least its AST
riffraff I'd prefer the string, so it is eval'able again 16:05
like numbers or strings
but maybe .perl would be enough
and it is just my ruby background showing :) 16:06
TimToady in p6 regexen are not string, they're programs
if you want to use another regex in yours, use /<$rgx>/ 16:07
bare $rgx is always a literal match
moritz TimToady: so .perl shouldn't reproduce everthing?
TimToady so it wouldn't do what you want anyway
it should, but there's little point in decompiling and recompiling when you can just use a ref 16:08
riffraff makes sense
TimToady arguably, treating regex as strings was the biggest design mistake in Perl 1..5
moritz so does m/<$regex>/ only works when $regex is a regex, or should it work with a string as well?
TimToady it should work if it's a string 16:09
don't know if it's implemented tho
moritz ok
TimToady ?eval my $pat = "abc"; $pat ~~ /<$pat>/ 16:10
avar TimToady: I guess you'll be happy to know that I've recently been fixing your screwups in 5.10 :)
moritz it seems <$foo> is not implemented at all in pugs
avar regexes can be objects now
(or any scalar)
TimToady but not the assumption that $foo interpolates before regex compilation
I carefully avoided the multiple interpolation bugs of shell scripting, only to fall into the same trap with regexen 16:11
evalbot_r16160 *** Cannot parse regex: <$pat>ā¤*** Error: ā¤Match.new(ā¤ ok => Bool::False, ā¤ from => 0, ā¤ to => 0, ā¤ str => "", ā¤ sub_pos => (), ā¤ sub_named => {}ā¤)
avar TimToady: yup, but you can do "str" =~ sub { $re => "(ook|eek)" } I guess 16:13
but ya, I haven't changed the parser/tokenizer
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TimToady biab & 16:16
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riffraff looking at src/Pugs/Eval.hs: I can see a reduceSyn "subst" doesn't this mean that this should be actually parsed ? 16:30
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fridim is there an argument of the choice of haskell over ocaml (more perf?), or did you choose it just because you love it more ? :) 17:12
moritz fridim: audreyt implemented pugs as a haskell exercise first ;)
riffraff is there an obvious way of calling pugs' internal functions fro perl6? I can use Pugs::Internals::sprintf, for example, but how do I call mkRegex defined in RRegex.hs 17:13
fridim moritz, ok :)
Zaba hmm 17:18
snowing.pl from examples doesn't work here
pugs 6.2.13
ah
does
just Slooow
17:19 justatheory joined
gaal riffraff: you... don't, but if you need it for exploratory purposes just add something to Prim.hs 17:22
riffraff yeah I was thinking of that
Zaba pugs is so slow =(
it idles when i start some script for about 1/3 of minute eating CPU a lot 17:23
gaal riffraff: re: reduceSyn, that's a hacky thing. Something (Parser.hs) had constructed a Syn node and reduceSyn is the evaluator moosing it
Zaba then begins to slowly execute it
any ideas why?
gaal Zaba: do you have a blib6/lib/Prelude.pm.yml file?
also, did you build with "make soon"?
or just "make"?
sapir what's make soon? 17:24
Zaba gaal, i installed it from portage
riffraff point is: if I want to implement X in perl6 I need Y (available in haskell) at the perl level. Otherwise I can implement X at the haskell level but then we have less portability no?
gaal make soon happens faster but gives a much slower pugs
Zaba greps logs
sapir make fast?
gaal sapir: renamed to make soon, because it built a _slow_ pugs :)
riffraff: well, yes, that's the tradeoff.
sapir ah, I think in 6.2.13 it's still make fast
gaal probably, yes. 17:25
Zaba is 6.2.13 very old?
sapir because make soon doesn't work here :)
gaal kinda.
Zaba well
sapir also that would explain why it's slow for me too :)
Zaba build was VERY time and mem/cpu consuming
i'm not sure if it was fast soon whatever
gaal Zaba: how much free RAM does your machine have? 17:26
Zaba gaal, 768mb
gaal pugs can easily eat half a gig at build time
Zaba and the build was _veeeery_ mem/cpu consuming
gaal oh, another tip: use a snapshot GHC 6.7
Zaba so even GNU screen _lagged_
gaal well, builds that aren't CPU consuming aren't doing their jobs... 17:27
sapir and I have 256megs . . .
Zaba ghc seems to be an excessive hog here
even on fewliners
gaal sapir: you *might* get away with an optimized build, but you'll have to tweak the heap size in config.yml
Zaba 03:33:43 < gaal> Zaba: do you have a blib6/lib/Prelude.pm.yml file? <-- yeah it loads Prelude
gaal and don't run anything else at the time :)
riffraff gaal, about reduceSyn: we are er.. abusing the parser to parse a method call? Anyway, does it actually work? :) 17:28
gaal riffraff: dunno, what does smoke.pugscode.org say? :)
riffraff ?eval subst("hello",/h/,'f')
Zaba it's even slow on saying it can't find something in @*INC
gaal Zaba: okay, but note it won't find it if you cd elsewhere
sapir do I have to make clean to fix whatever make fast did, or is just making enough?
17:28 evalbot_r16160 is now known as evalbot_r16162
evalbot_r16162 Error: No such subroutine: &subst 17:28
riffraff not working :) 17:29
gaal sapir: better make clean.
Zaba time pugs -MNonexisting
real 0m2.244s
user 0m2.120s
sys 0m0.060s
sapir ah well
gaal that isn't a meothd call. :)
Zaba it's use Nonexisting;
and it takes THAT long
sapir so ghc_heap_size is the size of the heap that ghc uses when it compiles?
Zaba time perl -MNonexsisting 17:30
real 0m0.006s
user 0m0.004s
sys 0m0.000s
gaal sapir: yes.
Zaba that's a REAL difference!
riffraff gaal, well, it does'nt work the other way either IIRC
?eval "hello".subst(/h/,'f')
sapir so if I set it lower it uses less memory? won't it run out?
evalbot_r16162 Error: No such method in class Str: &subst
gaal Zaba: there have in fact been improvements in pugs in that area. on my machine time pugs -e1 is a little under a second now. sure, could be much better. and should, eventually. 17:31
moritz riffraff: did you commit your changes?
riffraff I don't have changes :)
Zaba gaal, yes it should be
moritz riffraff: ok :(
Zaba and it's not now
gaal sapir: it'll do its best to GC more aggressively
Zaba perl5 lacks a lot of perl6 features i need
sapir ok
Zaba though perl6 is unusuable
gaal sapir: thus avoiding swap, which if you hit, you might as well leave the computer and go on vacation
riffraff I need to either: understand how to use a pattern object with s, or pull VSubst (I think) to the perl level 17:32
gaal riffraff: looking
Zaba question is, what should i use before christmas?
sapir gaal: practically what I did when I compiled it. closed basically everything (including X) and left it going for the day
gaal Zaba: that's up to you, your goals and the environment you're running in. 17:33
riffraff Zaba, perl with some perl6 modules ?
s/perl$/perl5
gaal sapir: pugs encourages longer vacations :)
sapir gaal: ah. it's a feature :)
Zaba no
gaal sapir: seriouslier now, if you're planning on a lot of Hs dev work, you pretty much want lots of ram. 17:34
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gaal otherwise - use make soon, or be content with pugses others build... 17:35
and, try a ghc 6.7 -- creates faster pugsed faster
but don't build your own ghc ;-)
Zaba, sapir: bottom of this page: www.haskell.org/ghc/dist/current/dist/ 17:36
lambdabot Title: Index of /ghc/dist/current/dist
sapir ok next question: I run make, it gets up to PIL2JS which tells me the 'name' method doesn't exist and to rerun Makefile.PL, which I'm pretty sure I've already done
gaal unpack in ~ , cd to the dir, follow the README 17:37
uh, I think you can ignore PIL2JS
for now.
sapir I mean the make tells me
gaal does the make die? 17:38
sapir yup. I'm trying make -k now
gaal if it happens again nopaste the log please
sapir if so, it'll probably be after I clear out everything, get ghc from that link, and get pugs from svn 17:39
gaal ok. while you're at it maybe "make realclean" or even wipe out the working copy and re-co 17:40
riffraff: I'm getting the feeling that Syn "substr" is a fossil 17:43
making sure...
17:43 Psyche^ joined
gaal ah, no. substLiteral 17:44
P.P.Literal:626
riffraff 626? 17:45
gaal line
src/Pugs/Parser/Literal.hs line 626
riffraff yes yes I was trying to understand what it means:)
gaal that's where the parser sees s/elk/moose/
(or tr///) and puts the Syn "substr" thing 17:46
Zaba hmm
riffraff ok
gaal anyway: the reason your "substr" wasn't working is because you were talking about the other substr
the function that has the same name in p5
Zaba ?eval my $s = "Hello wotld!\n"; $s =~ s/tl/rl/; print $s
evalbot_r16162 OUTPUT[<Subst>] Bool::True 17:47
Zaba doh i hate it
riffraff gaal, subst, no 'r'
gaal "~~"
riffraff: well. no such prim...
riffraff exactly :)
gaal let me see if the prelude knows it
Zaba where did the old s/// behavior go?
riffraff no, it does not AFAICT, I was just trying to implement it on t of s/// 17:48
Zaba ?eval my $s = "Hello wotld!\n"; print $s ~ s/tl/rl/; print $s;
evalbot_r16162 OUTPUT[Hello wotld!ā¤<Subst>Hello wotld!ā¤] Bool::True
gaal Zaba: "=~" is spelled "~~" now
riffraff but since I suck, I could not get how to make the magic happen and go down to pugs internal behaviour, the one used for s///
Zaba ?eval my $s = "Hello wotld!\n"; print $s ~~ s/tl/rl/; print $s;
evalbot_r16162 OUTPUT[1Hello world!ā¤] Bool::True
Zaba gaal, porting is pain. 17:49
?eval my $s = "Hello wotld!\n"; $s ~~ s/tl/rl/; print $s;
gaal a lot of it is mechanical.
evalbot_r16162 OUTPUT[Hello world!ā¤] Bool::True
Zaba it seems different still to me
gaal this particular case will be taught to raise a warning...
Zaba: what does?
Zaba gaal, nothing, and it's why 30% of people will stick with perl5 which 'is enough for their purposes' 17:50
s/nothing/everything/
gaal Zaba: that's okay
took a while to transition from Perl 4, too.
Zaba which kind of interpreter does perl 5 use? and perl 6? 17:51
gaal what do you mean?
Zaba on kind i meant, how does it work
like, does it just go by character and see what's it, or uses some kind of flex/bison/antlr-like tools? 17:52
gaal Zaba: Perl 5 has a heavily hacked yacc grammar
Zaba oh 17:53
and pugs?
gaal, then why is it so fast?.. ;-)
gaal Zaba: Pugs has a parser built with Parsec, a Haskell library. But Perl 6 will eventually parse itself with Rules
Zaba compared to pugs even, perl5 is flying
to current pugs that is
gaal Zaba: speed isn't the top priority now. 17:54
Zaba gaal, then it's another reason to stick with perl5 ;-)
gnuvince -Ofun
gaal Perl 5 is based on code that's been tweaked for very, very long.
Zaba i see
gaal, i see, and rewriting everything from scratch in better way is better than tweaking on 17:55
though the question is, doesthe new attempt really work better, or at least same fast/wahever criteria as the previous?
gaal we have kind of a large feature set. some of it was very hard to do in c
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Zaba gaal, C isn't really good for fast and advanced parsing/lexing 17:56
at least it might be fast, then code turns unreadable
gaal riffraff: okay, the thing is s/// works at the AST level and Prim looks like it doesn't -- but it can :) 17:57
riffraff: what you do is create your Syn "substr" node
then evaluate it, in Prim 17:58
with evalExp
riffraff: see for example Prim:315, try 17:59
basically it guards the code with a exception moose, but the point is it runs it
evalExp $ App (Val $ VCode sub) Nothing []
that means, 18:00
"evalExp (this function call)"
you'll need something like evalExp $ Syn "substr" str subst adverbs 18:01
look at the code in Literal.hs to see how to create default adverbs
riffraff I see but I don't think I need to do that, the parsing should be correctly handled by the current parser, I just need to fill in the code for the method, more like "say" 18:02
then try
or am I wrong?
Zaba just wants to implement an irc bot in perl, with real man's OO, not perl5's
gaal Zaba: well, nobody's claimed pugs was the righteous heir to the throne. so far no other implementation has some close to pugs' coverage. 18:03
Zaba: but that said, look into Moose.pm (perl 5)
rindolf Hi gaal
Zaba gaal, i did
and i decided to take a look at perl6 before diving into dirt
gaal riffraff: you are wrong :) what you want is to fire the evaluator code at runtime that deals with substitutions 18:04
hello riffraff
hello rindolf
<- another tabcompletion casualty
rindolf gaal: hi hi.
gaal: are you at home now?
gaal riffraff: you're right in that you need no special parser support
rindolf: I am. 18:05
rindolf gaal: nice.
Zaba cya
rindolf gaal: say hi to Foo for me.
gaal thanks
rindolf: the point is to reuse the actual substitution implementation
grrr 18:06
riffraff: see above.
riffraff yep
sapir gaal: the advantage of mp6 etc. is? they bootstrap from perl5?
riffraff but would'n that cause misterious effects related to when the regexen are interpolated, when the code is executed and so on, that don't exactly match the semantics of the method? 18:07
gaal by the time you hit Prim, your rx is already parsed 18:08
riffraff ok
sapir gaal: or do they? 18:09
gaal sapir: you'll have to talk with fglock, but I think their idea is that they are very quickly Perl 6 18:10
sapir easier to complete p6 in a p6-like than in haskell?
gaal that is, there's the minimum possible p5 code in them and they are mostly implemented in successively more comlpex subsets of p6 18:11
sapir: completing p6 take a lot of moose; possibly the parser will be easiest in p6. but the hs runtime does a lot of thing well, and gives it to pugs for free 18:12
examples: GC, concurrency, io...
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sapir so Parrot is intended to replace Haskell for that purpose? 18:13
gaal btw, our runtime is a hybrid one; we *also* have a perl5 interpreter available to do what it's good at
for example, unicode stuff
Zaba would have been happy; it takes 0 wallclock secs to load :-) 18:14
well, parrot is one backed
pugs can compile to several things 18:15
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integral hmm, what's the current status of pugs's compilation stuff? Has it fully moved to the new internals yet, and is pir output broken or working? Or, how do I find out these answers? 18:16
gaal integral: re PIR I don't know. re the other stuff, backlog ~two days ago 18:17
a discussion between cmarcelo and myself
18:17 theorbtwo joined
integral thanks 18:19
gaal sure
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rindolf gaal: are you still developing on Windows? 18:33
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svnbot6 r16163 | rhr++ | First commit, added myself to AUTHORS 19:19
19:20 jisom joined 19:21 theorbtwo joined
Limbic_Region hey theorbtwo 19:28
svnbot6 r16164 | rhr++ | Rough draft spec of Pipe.to and Pipe.from 19:40
rhr TimToady: comments? 19:42
what about my ideas for Pipe.pair and Pipe.fork? should the latter return a (IO $r, IO $w) but True/False for parent/child? 19:44
TimToady it's a good start. Pipe.fork doesn't feel right. the objects in question are processes, and pipes just happen to connect them some of the time 19:48
(I also think solutions involving "but True" are a code smell showing the wrong class is being asked to do something.) 19:49
rhr agreed, I was hoping you'd come up with something better :) 19:50
how about Pipe.pair? 19:51
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TimToady sure, that's just a wrapper around the pipe() syscall. 19:53
rhr ok, I'll add it. does the interface (returns List of IO) sound good? 19:54
19:55 penk joined
TimToady good enough for now, but maybe we should have some official way of combining multiple one-way pipes into something more like a two-way socket pair. 19:55
rindolf Hi TimToady
TimToady rindolf: howdy
rindolf TimToady: what's up?
TimToady oh, the usual 19:56
rindolf TimToady: BTW, did you phrase the Perl Artistic licence yourself?
TimToady the original one? yes. it was written sloppily on purpose.
rindolf TimToady: hmmm...
19:56 penk joined
rindolf TimToady: why? 19:56
TimToady: the FSF considers it non-free.
TimToady I wanted corporate lawyers to be able to see 50 ways to wriggle out of it so they'd let their programmers use Perl 19:57
rindolf TimToady: heh
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wolverian has anyone gone to fsf about artistic 2, by the way? I think they still haven't updated it 20:01
svnbot6 r16165 | rhr++ | Add Pipe.pair
wolverian that is, they still have this: "The Artistic License 2.0 is currently in a draft phase with The Perl Foundation. ..."
rhr so we want some EntangledIO role, with .closer and .closew or some such?
or do we just add options to IO.close? 20:04
TimToady phone&
rhr but if we use normal IO objects for that, .fileno doesn't know what to return... 20:05
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veritos heya 20:22
riffraff in pugs internals is there a generic way to lift a val from a generic type Val to something specific like VStr ? 20:24
SamB riffraff: why don't you see what typeclasses VStr is an instance of? 20:26
riffraff bvecause I want to pass a Val that I know is a VStr to something that just wants that 20:29
but probable I'm approaching the thing from a wrong perspective :) 20:30
SamB what I mean is that any generic mechanism must be in a typeclass that the various value types, like VStr, are instances of 20:31
svnbot6 r16166 | rhr++ | Spec Socket.pair, analogous to Pipe.pair
20:32 Xach joined
riffraff dunno what to look for :) 20:32
veritos riffraff: search for a line "type VStr" 20:34
20:36 fglock joined
riffraff i was looking for instance vstr 20:37
but nevermind, I sidestepped the problem :)
20:38 veritos left 20:40 pack|pizza joined
fglock hmm - I'm back to 'what to do next?' 20:43
20:43 Xach left 20:45 marmic joined
TimToady fglock: either pick the easiest thing, or the hardest thing, or something in the middle. :) 20:47
fglock kp6-in-C with embedded perl5 seems to be -Ofun, for some weird reason 20:48
I guess I like "fast", rather than "features" 20:49
but "eval" in C is difficult
kp6-in-parrot would be duplicated effort 20:50
kp6-in-pugs is very slow
STD-in-PCR-in-Pugs would need some serious backtracking-library implementation & profiling 20:52
riffraff feature I'd like today: variable interpolation in regexen :)
fglock riffraff: I don't think I can fix that; it depends heavily on the haskell/perl5 bridge 20:53
[particle] kp6-in-parrot should be faster, no? 20:55
fglock: think you could team up with pmichaud and implement something together? 20:56
fglock [particle]: re faster: not sure, kp6 implements OO at high level
[particle] it seems one path you haven't really pursued is multiple hackers on the same project :)
well, parrot implements oo at low level 20:57
you should be able to modify kp6 to take advantage of that
fglock re team: sure, but I'd like to keep an eye on 6-in-6
rather than implement perl6 *with* parrot
[particle] okay, then the parrot emitter can be smarter about oo 20:58
fglock the PMC would need some extra goodies,
like "modified" flags that kp6 needs at BEGIN time 20:59
[particle] parrot classes have an 'instantiated' flag
hrmm, i guess you want that for objects, though 21:00
fglock ok
for containers
[particle] you could certainly build a Ref pmc that has a 'modified' flag
fglock but that's just a detail
[particle] s/Ref/Container/ # whatever 21:01
beppu lolgeeks.com/wp-content/uploads/200...eks016.jpg
fglock otoh, p6-in-parrot already has a plan and a history, I don't think it would reuse much of my work 21:03
gaal riffraff: does fromVal do what you want? 21:04
it's monadic, so you need pureStr <- fromVal x 21:05
used all over Prim
[particle] is running Test.pm enough to say you've implemented enough of p6 to build p6-on-p6?
fglock [particle] any ideas on how we can help each other?
[particle]: no
gaal rindolf: did you mean pugs? rarely 21:06
[particle] i guess the problem with defining a subset of p6 is *which* subset
riffraff gaal, I'll check it pout, thank you 21:07
[particle] fglock: pm is planning a more kp6-like approach to parsing STD, iirc 21:08
you should probably email him, as he hasn't been reliably on irc lately
i'd be happy to be part of the conversation, if it'll help 21:09
gaal np
fglock btw, kp6 can be desugared to the current p6parrot, using lots of workarounds
[particle] i wonder if that's any faster than pugs 21:10
fglock which means it could run 6-on-6
gaal z& 21:11
fglock I'm not reliably on mail :) irc is easier
[particle] perhaps tomorrow, then. he's not available now 21:12
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fglock [particle]: I think my problem with p6parrot is that it depends heavily on parrot, 21:19
that is, you can't work around bugs 21:20
in kp6 you have the emulation layer until everything is fine
of course, this doesn't help much for parrot's development 21:21
got to go home & 21:22
[particle] ok, we'll talk more later
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riffraff pouch, fromVal was so much easy to spot, I wonder why I missed it 21:41
what type declaration is x :: !Foo ? 21:47
gaal riffraff: same as x :: Foo, except the field is strict 21:50
riffraff ok, I think I understand :) 21:54
gaal you can ignore it for most purposes
basically it's an optimization thing
avar ook
gaal apart from some cases where it influences semantics
svnbot6 r16167 | avar++ | testing commit 21:55
gaal (for some algorithms it radically influences space behavior)
riffraff ok 22:00
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avar fails at writing a module in p6 22:19
stupid build systems...
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Limbic_Region wonders if the bold green (TimToady) and bold red (audreyt) in the irclog coloring has anything to do with perl 6 coming out on Xmas 22:30
22:36 MindUs joined
MindUs Free phone calls all around the world -----> callfree.point-serv.com/en/ 22:36
lambdabot Title: Free phone calls all around the world | Free Calls
22:37 MindUs left 22:40 MindUs joined
MindUs Free phone calls all around the world -----> callfree.point-serv.com/en/ 22:40
lambdabot Title: Free phone calls all around the world | Free Calls
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offby1 *sigh* 22:41
that guy was spamming #emacs a day or so ago too
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gnuvince_ Hey, weird thing, I'm trying to install pugs on my new Feisty Fawn installation, and I get this message: Can't locate v6.pm in @INC 22:52
Any hint? 22:53
[particle] maybe install is broken? 22:54
qmole cpan install v6?
gnuvince_ qmole: cpan won't run because of the same error :)
[particle] you can install v6 from pugs, too
qmole not sure where you'd get that message, i thought v6 and pugs were separate 22:55
[particle] cd v6/v6-alpha or something
Tene gnuvince_: 'make install' is broken right now
you've got perl6 stuff in your perl5 lib/site_perl/auto 22:56
you'll need to remove it manually.
gnuvince_ Tene: so what do I do? 23:00
reinstall perl5?
Tene gnuvince_: I just told you what you needed to do.
reinstalling perl5 won't help
try this: 23:01
find /usr/lib/perl5 -ctime -1
that will show you all the files in /usr/lib/perl5 that were created in the past day
gnuvince_ Thank you 23:02
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