pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4]
Set by gaal on 18 June 2007.
obra I have a question for folks interested in hacking on docs 00:04
anyone around?
moritz
I like to form heavy objects out of printed docs and hack on my screen with them ;) 00:05
obra moritz: ORA's book on perl6 and parrot has just been opensourced. (perl6 and parrot essentials)
we now have the source under Artistic 2
if it got checked into the pugs rep, would folks be interested in modernizing, updating and extending it?
moritz obra: I read that mail, and I replied, but it didn't get through to the list 00:06
obra moritz: allison and I have been having an olff-list tchat
what was the summary of your mail?
moritz 1) sounds good
2) does the TPF already has a license for it? 00:07
obra Artistic 2
moritz 3) I'd suggest the pugs repo instead the "official" perl one, because it's open to more hackers
just sent it again, with a different SMTP this time
obra What I talked allison into is initial commit to tpf repo then branching to the pugs repo 00:08
nothingmuch wiki! 00:09
moritz nothingmuch: no!
Tene wiki--
moritz nothingmuch: I can't use vim in a wiki
nothingmuch don't you wnat pictures of pretty girls in the next edition of the book?
moritz nothingmuch: and it has a much longer dev cycle
nothingmuch and a 404 link chapter?
Tene moritz: you can with proper browser plugins
or with a fuse app for that wiki
moritz Tene: but that's an evil hack
nothingmuch well, there is a possibility for middle ground 00:10
moritz if you want something wiki-like, use a distributed SCM
nothingmuch e.g. ingy's doolitle
which is essentially a wiki frontend to a bunch of perldocs in svn
but i was kidding
Tene moritz: nah, the pugs crowd seems to love SVN
moritz Tene: I wouldn't mind switching to git ;)
Tene likes git. 00:11
nothingmuch darcs 00:12
yay!
nothingmuch stops trolling
moritz I haven't really tried it, but I heard great things about git... and seen examples, and all
today I was in git talk at debconf7
nothingmuch nothingmuch.woobling.org/darcs_osdc...start.html
lambdabot Title: Darcs
nothingmuch wait for the images to load, so s5 kicks in
moritz obra: obviously I'll read parrot+perl6 internals prior to chaniging it ;) 00:15
nothingmuch: what's an advantage of darcs compared to git? 00:16
nothingmuch IMHO darcs is the most user friendly VCS i've seen
and also very powerful
the non linearity of changes is what sold me
obra yeah, when trying to write a book, that's not so hot ;)
nothingmuch tangetntial 00:17
if you change chapter a and then chapter b, and then change your mind about changing chapter a, darcs makes that trivial
moritz "n Darcs every working directory is a full repository" - that's an advantage over git
obra svk has that mode too, moritz. and works with svn ;)
anyway
I don't see pugs switching version control systems this week 00:18
nothingmuch you're just pimping your buddies code ;-)
obra hence it makes sense to check it into svn and go from there
nothingmuch: mine, actually
nothingmuch for the record i'm not trying to get pugs on svn, just saying why i like darcs since someone mentioned git =)
and don't worry, i'm a happy svk user, too
moritz obra: I know, but git performs a bit better than svk for large repos ;)
nothingmuch that's where darcs loses 00:19
moritz I don't try either ;)
obra let's not have this discussion here
it's not perl6 ;)
moritz obra: that never stopped us from any discussion here ;) 00:20
obra :P
moritz nothingmuch: nice slides ;) 00:22
nothingmuch wonders why his comp is so slow
everthing is happenning at a 1 sec delay
thoughtpolice nothingmuch: I agree on the note that darcs is really 'easy' 00:23
pretty much all of the concepts in darcs are about as straightforward as I've seen, and a lot of them are really useful (cherry picking is one of the best)
git is pretty much as good as you'll get for a fast system though; mercurial is pretty quick as well. i haven't tried it, but in pushes and pulls from repo's with very large amounts of patches, some actions can take inordinate amounts of time. 00:25
which is kind of a downer for darcs
moritz which is an advantage for us 00:26
because it means hacking GHC is less fun for audreyt as it could be 00:27
=> more time for pugs ;)
thoughtpolice haha
well the ghc guys apparently don't like some of the issues. :/ but the new ideas taking place in darcs for the SoC should help out a *lot* 00:28
i assume that'll be something like darcs 1.1
since we have 1.0.9 now. :)
nothingmuch that's a little problematic 00:29
because it's been in the queue too long
personally i've never seen the issues with my own two eyes
but occasionally people bring them up
nothingmuch is very happy with darcs for all of his non work, non catalyst modules 00:29
thoughtpolice i'm pretty happy with it too
thoughtpolice but then again the ghc guys are probably playing in a pretty different ballpark than you or I are. i can imagine problems like that cropping up in a 100kloc app with thousands upon thousands [upon thousands] of patches 00:30
for most people though a lot of the actual pointed out issues with darcs aren't really that much of a problem. a lot of them seem to manifest more in much larger projects. 00:31
nothingmuch yep
moritz has an active project that's on revision 7, and at least half a year old
thoughtpolice nice. :)
nothingmuch nothingmuch.woobling.org/darcs_dep.pdf
that's probably as big as i've gotten
moritz since I'm the only developer, there's no need for early commits ;)
thoughtpolice i'll openly admit that probably none of my projects have had that many. :) 00:33
most of my code is mainly just little stuff I write in my spare time; repo's that use maybe ~20 or so patches.
i love darcs though. mercurial is looking really nice however, so I'm going to have to try it out more extensively sometime in the future. 00:34
and I've normally found the best way to learn something is to use it; I'll have to find some kind of project to hack on. :)
moritz thoughtpolice: pugs ;) 00:35
thoughtpolice: did you apply for a microgrant? 00:36
thoughtpolice no. right now I'm trying to clear up some other loose ended projects I have
namely ones that have taken inordinate amount of time which I'm not very happy about. a few I can lay off since they're a bit more personal, but there're a couple that've been really nagging on my brain recently that I need to take care of 00:37
but the recommendation for a microgrant has been on my mind over the past few days. :)
mainly there're about 2 projects I need to work more on. once those are done a microgrant is high up there as something to shoot for. :) 00:38
the funny thing is both of these things are websites. what're they both waiting on? designs. *sigh* 00:39
moritz thoughtpolice: for designs I just go to oswd.org most of the time ;)
thoughtpolice: take a good looking design, and modify it to my needs
thoughtpolice although I think I found a nice web framework that I could use
web.py
moritz: thanks. :)
moritz: one of those is probably good for my blog. the other one is a more domain-specific site, so I have a designer working on it specifically right now (at least, I think...) 00:41
moritz ok
and I wrote my own little offline CMS in perl ;)
thoughtpolice ah, fun stuff. :) 00:42
moritz it basically handles inclues, variable substitutions and a special menu system for nested menus
and it can syntax hilight through Text::VimColor
which means it can even hilight perl 6 code decently! ;-) 00:43
thoughtpolice awesome
:)
moritz that wasn't really hard to implement, but a killer feature for perl-6.de/ 00:44
lambdabot Title: Perl 6 - Schmerzloses Programmieren
nothingmuch night folks 00:52
thoughtpolice later 00:53
nothingmuch obra: so there ;-)
and happy birthday, btw
obra thanks :) 00:54
moritz happy birthday! 01:12
svnbot6 r16683 | obra++ | * placeholder for perl6 essentials 01:38
obra moritz: thanks
as a birthday present to/from me, I've checked the book in to pugs svn 01:39
svnbot6 r16684 | obra++ | * Perl 6 [and Parrot] Essentials source opensourced by O'Reilly Media 01:41
r16684 | obra++ | allison++ # Got ORM to donate the code to TPF and got TPF to Artistic License it
r16684 | obra++ | - Cloned from the TPF svn.perl.org/perl6/doc repository
lambdabot Title: Revision 14424: /doc
gaal happy birthday, obra # and yay for just checking it in, and yay for having the book! 03:47
also, yay for nothingmuch for producing the quintessential nothingmuch quote to date 03:49
03:22 < nothingmuch> IMHO darcs is the most user friendly VCS i've seen
< nothingmuch> IMHO darcs is the most user friendly VCS i've seen
< nothingmuch> the non linearity of changes is what sold me
Ooops, sorry for repetition
nothingmuch making fun of me is not nice 03:51
my english eh not so good
offby1 nothingmuch: your English is better than my 1) Spanish 2) French 3) Mandarin 4) German ... 03:53
nothingmuch that doesn't matter, all that matters is that gaal is a mean poo poo head 03:54
sleepy time
gaal it was more about the "oh look how simple my commutation with inverse property is!" 03:54
sleep tight, no'. 03:55
Aankhen`` mooses in a friendly manner towards gaal. 03:56
gaal hey!
Aankhen`` What's new?
offby1 moosing in public. Kids these days 03:58
Aankhen`` Go back to yer cave, grandpa.
gaal I'm yearning for some magic audreyt touch to animate a patch that can speed up Pugs several times 03:59
offby1 mumbles incoherently about insurance
Aankhen`` gaal: Oooh.
Aankhen`` laughs at offby1.
gaal also, I'm up early, which means I had better take advantage to the pleasant temperatures out and go rowing
lambdabot! don't go!
gaal wp 04:00
*wb
ok, i'd better vamoose, myself :)
Aankhen`` Aww. 04:02
weirdo heya 05:21
are strings, arrays et al subclasses of a common type
?
svnbot6 r16685 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : further license clarification 05:42
dduncan weirdo, yes 05:52
gaal weirdo: look for "buffer" in L<S09/"Compact arrays">
you can coerce a string into a buf 05:53
shower &
dduncan all types are subtypes of Object
weirdo thanks
but can't i map{} over a string?
dduncan more specifically, they all subtype Any 05:53
in what way do you want to map over a string? 05:54
what is a string element in this case?
weirdo besides, can i print the type graph in pugs?
dduncan I don't know about the latter 05:55
gaal weirdo: $obj.perl or $obj.yaml give you textual representations
dduncan if not now, you probably should be able to soon
weirdo i was thinking in terms of, all array types (buf, @ary, string etc) working with iterators
gaal oh, you meant the type graph, not an instance of the type Graph :) 05:56
dduncan a Str is abstract as per what its components are
so to do a map{}, you need to specify what level of abstraction you want to work in terms of
eg, graphs vs codes vs bytes
or vs words et al 05:57
such as <...> does
weirdo i'm thinking of a string as of an array with each element having the same predefined type 05:58
dduncan which is what?
weirdo depends whether it's multibyte 05:59
dduncan so you're thinking of a string as being a compact array of something or other?
weirdo yes 06:00
dduncan what is the context
in Perl, a Str is specifically characters, which is an abstract notion
whereas a Blob is a string of bits
and a buffer is a mutable version of either 06:01
dduncan in Perl 6, you may simply want to use an array of int or something 06:01
lower-case int means compact storage
as it is machine native int 06:02
or substitute int for some other lower-case named types
or the best answer for you depends on what you actually want to achieve
Perl 6 isn't exactly the same as any other language, though has close analogies
eg, the C way of doing things may not be directly applicable here 06:03
weirdo i was thinking in terms of common lisp's type system
dduncan some fundamental concepts differ
a Str in perl is fundamentally a scalar, not a collection
weirdo there are sequences, vectors (compact or not), lists and arrays (multidimensional or vectors)
dduncan map{} only makes sense over collections
weirdo thanks. that makes sense 06:04
dduncan you can derive a collection from a scalar, but a scalar is not a collection itself
eg, using split() on a Str can give you a collection
or various other functions 06:05
depending on how you want it broken up
weirdo are there any specifications on macros so far?
dduncan see Synopsis 6 I think 06:05
do you know a url for that?
if not, see dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
weirdo thanks :) 06:06
Aankhen`` (spec.pugscode.org)++
dduncan in Synopsis 6, scroll about 80% of the way down for most Macros stuff 06:07
note: it would probably be useful for the htmlized Synopsis docs to have generated tables of contents like search.cpan.org does for most pod 06:08
dduncan so we don't have to scroll to each section 06:08
wolverian dduncan, spec.pugscode.org does that. 06:09
weirdo wow. 'leave' works like RETURN-FROM 06:11
it can return a value, too
weirdo there's something unclear about macros. 'is parsed' implies that macro params are a string. can i get macro params as a syntax tree? 06:14
gaal look for 'quoting' and 'quasiquoting 06:15
'
weirdo can i use quasiquoting for getting an AST or only for returning it? 06:18
i was thinking of getting a block passed as a param to macro and seeing its expressions as an array 06:19
gaal should be possible 06:20
weirdo please, show me. most i could do is pugs> macro foo ($foo is CODE) { warn $foo; undef } 06:24
pugs> foo { 1 + 2; 3 + 4 } 06:25
*** <SubBlock(<anon>)> at <interactive> line 1, column 28-37
undef
oops. sorry for the flooding
i can't delve into the sub and mess with its expressions
bsb weirdo: I don't think pugs has all the quasiquoting and macro stuff implemented yet 06:26
gaal yay, my telepathic summoning of someone who actually knows this stuff worked! bsb, how are you? :-) 06:28
dduncan wolverian, thanks for that link ... I was using the other one since I bookmarked it a couple years ago ... replaced it with bookmark for new 06:39
bsb hey gaal, I'm good, but you'd know that with your telepathy 06:52
Aankhen`` dduncan: Pfft, who uses bookmarks any more? ;-) 07:02
Aankhen`` Hmm. Anyone who has a high-level understanding of Pugs feel able to tell me how Pugs parses Perl 6? :-) 07:13
dduncan Aankhen, better than anything else 07:14
so far
Aankhen`` Well, yes, I knew that already. :-P
I was wondering how.
dduncan 'how' looked like 'how well'
Aankhen`` (I'm trying to read the source, but I barely understand Haskell, so…) 07:15
Ah, no sweat.
dduncan well, good luck with that
Aankhen`` Thanks, I need it.
dduncan and I'm off
jql magic 07:17
Aankhen`` Heh. 07:22
Aankhen`` It suddenly struck me as amusing that a language like Perl 6 should be implemented on top of a purely functional language like Haskell. 07:25
Tene Aankhen``: howso, exactly? 07:26
jql well, Parsec is a damn impressive library
Aankhen`` Well, Perl always seems to embrace side-effects, whereas Haskell eschews them entirely (leaving aside monads, needless to say). 07:27
Just funny to see the Perl approach built on top of the Haskell approach, I guess.
Aankhen`` Now what would be really interesting would be to see a Haskell interpreter in Perl 6, running in Pugs, for circularity fun. <G> 07:29
gaal Aankhen``: not new, but maybe this can help: perlcabal.org/~gaal/peek/ 10:03
lambdabot Title:
gaal append start.html to that url
moritz obra: did you check in the parts of the book into the parrot repository? 10:15
svnbot6 r16686 | fglock++ | [kp6] added /v6/docs/kp6-overview.jpg 11:59
spinclad fglock: RFReview text looks good here 12:25
fglock spinclad: cool - I just sent it to the list
lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
moritz fglock: you should export images from vector graphics as .png, not .jpg - the text will be more readable, and the edges don't fuzzy out 12:33
fglock: although the current images are very readable ;)
fglock moritz: I'll do that next time
moritz good
obra moritz: allison is doing the parrot parts of the book 12:45
moritz obra: ok
fglock oops - my macbook screen is flickering and there seems to be no solution for that www.appledefects.com/?p=179 14:33
lambdabot Title: AppleDefects.com 􏿽xBB Inexplicable MacBook Screen Flicker - Customer Complaints & I ...
offby1 is that worse than the $5,000 Leica camera that distorted colors so badly that people just desaturated their images to black and white? 14:34
moritz no, I guess your macbook was cheaper ;) 14:34
fglock people are saying that apple can't fix that :( 14:36
rindolf Happy en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Boat_Festival all. 15:08
lambdabot Title: Duanwu Festival - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Aankhen`` gaal: Gracias, I'll give it a peek. ;-) 15:21
thoughtpolice yawns 15:22
Aankhen`` Morning.
thoughtpolice mornin'
Aankhen`` Shouldn't you be asleep?
thoughtpolice it's like 10:30am here
Aankhen`` Hmm, your clock seems to be off
.
[thoughtpolice TIME reply]: Thu Jul 19 04:39:54 2007
thoughtpolice most likely is
Aankhen`` Bleh, it's 8:21 AM here. I ought to have been in bed for another six hours. 15:23
(Woke up at 7:15.)
thoughtpolice hm yeah my clock's are off. i should probably really get around to syncing with an ntp server one of these days
thoughtpolice better. :) 15:28
Aankhen`` Yey, I feel better now. 15:32
leo_ audreyt: ping 15:35
audreyt: please contact me ASAP re flight 15:38
gaal Aankhen``: moose if you have any questions 15:47
rindolf Thanks to Allison for opening the parts of "Perl 6 Essentials" 15:49
thoughtpolice also, the last part of the topic could be "(reverse . show . last) $ zipWith (*) [1..6] [-1..]" 16:06
:)
although admittingly it could go much farther but hey, you only have one line
of course in most imperative languages you could just write that as "42" I guess since you can't play with infinte lists, but, uh... yeah. 16:09
TimToady 42 is an infinite list, it's just most of the digits are off to the left and invisible... 16:11
thoughtpolice indubitably 16:12
offby1 Aankhen``: whiner. My cat got me up at 5:00 am :-| 16:14
rindolf TimToady: heh. 17:54
TimToady heh?
rindolf <TimToady> 42 is an infinite list, it's just most of the digits are off to the left and invisible... 17:58
Aankhen`` offby1: I'm glad. GLAD, I SAY. 18:26
ibrown interesting. so from what i read, pug is just a new interpreter to parse the v6 syntax? and that interpreter can interpret v5 syntax as well or am i incorrect? 20:45
fglock ibrown: that's correct, from the user point of view 20:47
TimToady_ however, the p5 code is just handed off to an embedded p5 interpreter 20:48
fglock looks for dewarnocking tips 20:56
ibrown this is gaining more and more interest. So what's kinda the crux of the workload like right now? 21:00
fglock ibrown: currently, pugs object system is under refactoring; and other Perl 6 implementations are also under way 21:04
ibrown fglock: well i def. subscribed to the list, and got parrot/pugs working. i'm all about trying to start doing non-production dev on p6 heh. 21:08
[particle] fglock: all 01-sanity tests are now passing for parrot/perl6 21:09
fglock_ [particle]: nice :) 21:19
dduncan yay-eth 21:22
offby1 yay-us 21:29
svnbot6 r16687 | lwall++ | [ch04] begin to extirpate references to references 22:33
Limbic_Region TimToady - when is your Iceland conference?
moritz TimToady_: ch04 has a lot of parentheses around arrays... should I remove some of them? 22:35
TimToady_ Limbic_Region: July 16-20
I've removed some of them already
moritz TimToady_: ok
TimToady_ but if you want to whack on it some more, feel free 22:36
I'm about done with ch04 for the day
not sure what to do about the earlier history-in-progress chapters 22:37
moritz I won't do more today either
perhaps tomorrow
TimToady_ when it says "so-and-so is currently doing this" and they aren't anymore, it seems odd...
so I think the history parts have to be put into past tense 22:38
but I don't think I'm the right person to do that
moritz and ?? :: is ?? !! now, right? 22:39
TimToady_ yes
svnbot6 r16688 | moritz++ | [ch04] updated ternary operator 22:41
svnbot6 r16689 | moritz++ | [ch04] updated the zip operator 22:47
moritz ok, that was a lie later ;)
TimToady I just updated svn props, so you may get a conflict 22:48
svnbot6 r16690 | lwall++ | Add svn props to tutorial
TimToady suggest you svn up 22:49
moritz no conflict
;)
TimToady before any additional lying :)
svnbot6 r16691 | moritz++ | [ch04] print on $_ now requires a leading dot 22:51
moritz and named parameters are :$foo, not +$foo any more, right? 22:52
thoughtpolice yes, named parameters are : rather than +
i see we have o'reilly's book in the repo now? :) i use it for a reference when I need to when I write stuff on diveintoperl6. 22:53
moritz thoughtpolice: yes, read p6l ;-)
thoughtpolice: www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....27767.html
lambdabot Title: Perl 6 & Parrot Essentials as project documentation - nntp.perl.org, tinyurl.com/ynvlty 22:54
thoughtpolice nice stuff. :)
the book is a good reference.
pasteling "MaxDeMon" at 210.2.158.63 pasted "Haii" (1 line, 21B) at sial.org/pbot/25668 22:59
svnbot6 r16692 | moritz++ | [ch05] ':' instead of '?' for named parameters, (PARAMS --> RETURN_TYPE) 23:01
moritz doesn't like the examples in ch06 - "Arthur" is soemthing that I'd use as an object, not as a class 23:03
moritz is there a shorter word than 'exclamation mark' for '!'? 23:09
riffraff "bang" 23:10
moritz is that suitable for a book? *g*
TimToady nothing else sufficiently formal
riffraff I think I read some where the explained #! as shebang so, maybe yes :)
bsb there's a band called "!!!", pronounced "chk chk chk"... 23:12
"shchk line", hmm, maybe not
japhb [particle]: congratulations! # parrot/perl6 passing all of 01-sanity
moritz I'll stick to "exclamation mark" for now ;)
svnbot6 r16693 | moritz++ | [ch06] private methods and attributes now use '!' instead of ':' 23:13
japhb And thanks to ORM for releasing the book. Good on them ....
thoughtpolice i wonder what this says about the rails guys: dev.rubyonrails.org/ticket/8681 23:16
lambdabot Title: #8681 (Removed &#34;cocksucker&#34; from unit tests) - Rails Trac - Trac
Aankhen`` O_O 23:17
riffraff lol
thoughtpolice well, lambdabot summed it up pretty nicely I guess
japhb Don't like Deadwood?
thoughtpolice deadwood's a good show.
moritz ch07 will need some good portions of rewriting I guess
japhb Agreed! One of my favorites. I meant, that's what it says about the Ruby guy who made the change. :-) 23:18
thoughtpolice :)
japhb You'd be hard pressed to enjoy Deadwood and have sensitive ears. :-)
thoughtpolice i dunno. either that or for some -- crazy -- reason 'cocksucker' was not a critical part of the unit tests. 23:19
japhb That show is the only time I've ever heard "San Francisco cocksucker!" and *knew* it had absolutely nothing to do with sex. 23:21
moritz time for some serious sleeping for me ;-) 23:22
japhb Have a good rest
moritz have fun discussing cocksuckers in the mean time ;)
japhb heh
moritz japhb: thanks ;)
thoughtpolice moritz: peace out. :)
japhb chuckles
ibrown i'm pretty mad impressed. but i guess, there's one question the webpages haven't really answered as of yet. what are contribs being asked to do to contrib? 23:36
TimToady just find a spot to grab onto the breadcrumb and push it toward the nest. 23:44
Aankhen`` gaal: That presentation was great. ^_^
ibrown I guess the reason I ask is, i use perl every day for system administration tasks. i'll gladly switch to perl6 and start making comments via: irc: mailing lists instead of using perl5.8 heh. or if that's unadvisable, i guess i just don't really get a good concept of where you're at from the documentation on the websites.
been reading up on it for about 3-5hrs now
i use perl5.8 on both win32 and unix platforms 23:45
i <3 perl on win32 systems for tasks.
TimToady a lot of the documentation is about where we want to be at, and we don't go out of our way to mark which things are implemented yet, alas. 23:46
so it's mostly still trial-and-terror at this point
[particle] we do mark things that have been tested
TimToady well, yes, that helps
[particle] spec.pugscode.org 23:47
TimToady but only if they've been smartlinked
[particle] i expect that much more of the test suite will be smartlinked after conference season
TimToady hope so
TimToady it's definitely a place people can help out 23:48
[particle] indeed
ibrown smartlinked? 23:49
you mean within the pod? <a> kinda
japhb ibrown: Tests can mark what part of the spec they apply to 23:50
So you can look at the spec and know what it tested
er s/it/is/ 23:51
[particle] rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?smart_linking
lambdabot Title: Smart Linking / Perl 6
ibrown 2secs reading
japhb ibrown: see for example feather.perl6.nl/syn/S03.html#Autoi...precedence 23:55
lambdabot Title: S03
japhb (picked at random, but you'll see what we mean) 23:56
ibrown: Cool and new since the last time I looked at it is that the tests actually have pass/fail info for pugs included! 23:58
(check or x mark)
I guess the x'es qualify as NIY marks ... it would be nice to have two columns, one for pugs smoke and one for parrot/perl6 smoke. Though I don't know if the parrot/perl6 people are quite ready for that yet. 23:59

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