pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, smop: etc.) || We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by TimToady on 25 January 2008.
mncharity ah, :) 00:03
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pugs_svnbot r20456 | putter++ | [elf] New IR node Given. Parses, but no emitter yet. 00:18
cognominal_ TimToady, in S05:392 an apparent typo s/equivalant/equivalent/ 00:23
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speckbot r14543 | larry++ | typo from cognominal++ 00:46
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mncharity print STDERR ">$s< ",autobox->type($s),"\n"; #=> >str< INTEGER :/ 00:54
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mncharity finds himself knee deep in perlguts... wondering "how did I get here?" 01:30
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mncharity hmm. one can have an SVt_PVIV which is not SvIOK. curious. ah well, have working autobox patch. will wait on checking in new elf until a patched autobox release occurs. 01:49
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mncharity sigh. the definition of statement_control:default, "no 'when'-block mached in the current scope", means when() needs to be present at the IR level. :/ 02:58
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mncharity wow. when is magical. ok... 03:03
TimToady I think you're reading more into "default" than is intended 03:05
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TimToady it's just "when *" 03:05
it doesn't have to track whether other whens matched other than by being reached in the ordinary way of control flow 03:06
of course, when * -> ($x) {...} is a bit more magical... 03:07
or rather, when * -> $x {...}
well, packing up for Narita, so afk till earlier today :) 03:10
&
cognominal_ do pod5 processor support entities? 03:11
TimToady supposed to support E<...>
& really
cognominal_ I ask that question because rakudo does not support utf-8 03:12
thx
mncharity TimToady: thanks. I was discovering the magic of when() via default. :) 03:16
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pugs_svnbot r20457 | putter++ | [elf,STD_red] Added support for statement modifiers. 'say 3 if 4' no longer crashes. 03:25
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mncharity good night & 03:49
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pugs_svnbot r20458 | putter++ | [elf] Statment modifier bugfixes. 04:01
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cj moo 04:36
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lvh_ hello :-) 09:58
I'm trying to understand reduction. my $q = [<] @nums; Does what exactly?
vixey lvh_: it inserts < between every element of nums
lvh_ If I understand correctly, it's boolean and tells me wether @nums has ascending numbers, ie 1>2>3>4>.. etc
moritz_ it's the same as @nums[0] < @nums[1] < ... @nums[*-1] 09:59
lvh_ ah :-)
okay, thanks.
Also, if I want to play with this stuff, should I be using Rakudo/Parrot or pugs?
moritz_ both ;) 10:00
lvh_ right :-p
moritz_ pugs is more feature complete, but it isn't being developed anymore
lvh_ Seriously, though, are you guys moving towards two equivalent implementations? That sounds hairy.
Ah, the end goal is having parrot work?
moritz_ rakudo is the fast moving frontier, but not yet very feature complete 10:01
lvh_: the "end goal" is to have as many perl 6 implementations as we can get. One would be a great start.
lvh_ Okay, but in a year from now people will most likely be using rakudo and not pugs?
moritz_ presumably, yes
pugs: say [<] <1 2 3 4>
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤] 10:02
moritz_ pugs: say [<] <1 2 2 4>
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[␤]
moritz_ rakudo: say [<] <1 2 3>
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "[<] <1 2 3"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤called from Sub 'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statementlist' pc 18770 (src/gen_grammar.pir:2734)␤called from Sub
..'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statement_block' pc 15616 (src/gen_grammar.pir:1612)␤called f...
moritz_ rakudo: say [<] <1 2 3>;
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "[<] <1 2 3"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤called from Sub 'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statementlist' pc 18770 (src/gen_grammar.pir:2734)␤called from Sub
..'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statement_block' pc 15616 (src/gen_grammar.pir:1612)␤called f...
moritz_ ah well, meta operators not yet implemented in rakudo
lvh_ moritz_: what is this vector notation? 10:03
moritz_ lvh_: <foo bar> is the same as qw(foo bar) in Perl 5
lvh_: that is "split at whitespace and make a list out of it"
pugs: my @list = 1, 2, 3; say [+] @list; # the same 10:04
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[6␤]
lvh_ moritz_: okay. Single space separators? So <this,is,a,single,item>; is ugly, but returns a singleton list?
moritz_ right 10:05
cognominal_ this is what is infuriating with rakudo, high level stuff is implemented but "trivial" way to enter literate structures are missing.
moritz_ also I wouldn't call it "singleton"
lvh_ moritz_: I don't mean signleton in the java sense
moritz_ cognominal_: parsing <...> and <<...> and chained comparison isn't very trivial ;)
cognominal_: but that's right, it's annoying 10:06
lvh_ cognominal_: ooh, trivial! I can do trivial
moritz_ rakudo: my @l = 1, 2, 3; say @l;
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤]
moritz_ d'oh
rakudo: my @l = (1, 2, 3); say @l;
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[123␤]
moritz_ ah well, parsing assignment with list context isn't easy either 10:07
rakudo: my @l = (1, 2, 3,); say @l;
lvh_ moritz_: eh.... I thought (in perl5) @'s evaluated in scalar context returned the length of the array
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[123␤]
lvh_ moritz_: oh, nvm, perl6 vs perl5 sigils are confusing me
moritz_ lvh_: where did I have scalar context?
ah
sigils are invariant in p5
mncharity TimToady: (n+1) STD.pm doesn't seem to have an infix_prefix_meta_operator:sym<[ ]> for '[<] <2 3 4>'.
moritz_ s/p5/p6/
lvh_ moritz_: yeah. I forgot that 10:08
cognominal_ rakudo: my @l = (1)
exp_evalbot RESULT[1]
moritz_ lvh_: happens to the best of us. Even TimToady++ confuses p5 and p6 syntax at times
cognominal_ rakudo: my @l = (1); say @a[0]; 10:09
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Scope not found for PAST::Var '@a'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;panic' pc 158 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:103)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PAST::Compiler;keyed' pc 6040 (src/PAST/Compiler.pir:1675)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PAST::Compiler;post_children' pc 1664
..(src/PAST/Compiler.pir:364)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PAST::Compiler;call' p...
cognominal_ oops
rakudo: my @a = (1); say @a[0];
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 43 (EVAL_11:24)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 785 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1067 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:587)␤called from Sub
..'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1246 (src/P...
lvh_ moritz_: right, I don't know enough perl6 but I feel a junction is in order here: timtoady and larry are the same person?
moritz_ lvh_: yes 10:10
cognominal_ moritz, you see
rakudo: my @a = (1,2 ); say @a[0]; # with two elts : ok
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤]
moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 1,; say @a[0] 10:11
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 53 (EVAL_11:25)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 785 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1067 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:587)␤called from Sub
..'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1246 (src/P...
moritz_ that would be the "assignment in list context" thingy
mncharity TimToady: (n+1) it vaguely looks like, in expect_infix, the ordering of infix before infix_prefix_meta_operator causes ipmo:! to never be tried on '!< ...'. 10:12
TimToady: (n-=2) The last too comments are obviously bogus. Too early in the morning. :/ 10:20
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pugs_svnbot r20459 | putter++ | [STD_red] Parse '[<] <2 3>;', but not '[<] 2,3;'. 10:36
moritz_ mncharity: btw I tries run-tests in elf_f_src today and got 0 run 0%. 0 ok 0%. 10:38
mncharity: do I have to rebuild elf?
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mncharity ah well. STD_red [<] not going to happen this morning. 10:49
moritz_: 0% !
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moritz_ mncharity: yes. 0%. Did you break something? 10:51
mncharity what does ./elf_f ../../t/01-sanity/02-counter.t say?
re broke, not that I know of... :/
moritz_ Can't locate autobox.pm in @INC 10:53
ok
I broke it :(
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moritz_ I updated my debian (testing), which installed perl 5.10 10:53
thus making all previous installed modules (via cpan) unavailable
mncharity upside is, hopefully a new version of autobox coming out today... ;) 10:54
ah, it's been uploaded. autobox-2.51 propagating through CPAN... 10:55
moritz_ now it starts passing stuff 10:57
sorry for the noise
mncharity oh, so very no problem. great to have feedback. 10:59
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moritz_ mncharity: are there any tasks that can be done without much compiler knowledge? like writing builtins and the like 11:12
pugs_svnbot r20460 | putter++ | [elf] run-tests now does a "is elf running at all?" sanity check, with visible stderr. moritz_++
mncharity hmm... 11:13
let's see... there's easy stuff, like taking PrimitiveP5's $*PID and doing similar $*GID, etc, etc. ... 11:15
figure out what say() is really supposed to do with arrays, and tweak it (its body is p5, it's also in PrimitivesP5.pm). ... 11:17
that and adding a method say to STRING would get ../../../t/spec/S16-io/say.t to pass... 11:18
moritz_ mncharity: consider writing a TODO file with a section "low difficulty"
mncharity oh, good idea 11:19
moritz_ mncharity: maybe I'll get around to some of it, but it's also a good thing to point people to
mncharity at the other extreme is someone needs to really understand the p6 object model, and design a non-glacial p5 runtime for it. elf is currently just faking it, which is fine for implementing the compiler, but at some point it would be nice to be more real. 11:20
at some point the attempt to "be real p6" diverges from Moose. 11:21
moritz_ jonathon is currently doing similar work for rakudo 11:22
mncharity mid-range, and all p5, is creating a p5 multimethod module which does something realish. eg, take Class::Multimethods and sync it's policies with p6. 11:23
* its
The original vision for elf was "good enough to make p6 compiler development non-unpleasant". So one idea is just "try to do something, anything, and complain when it doesn't work". Ie, handling a more normal map() form is on the todo list from earlier feedback. 11:27
I shall scramble to quickly fill any gaps in the road thus encountered. 11:29
perl6: say(2,3,4);
exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[234␤] 11:30
..pugs: OUTPUT[234␤]
..rakudo: OUTPUT[234␤]
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mncharity perl6: say([2,3],[4,5]); 11:30
exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[2 34 5␤]
..pugs: OUTPUT[2 34 5␤]
..rakudo: OUTPUT[2345␤]
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mncharity perl6: say([2,[3,4],5); 11:31
exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 3, line 1 column 3:␤say([2,[3,4],5)␤ ^ HERE␤]
..pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤ Unexpected "["␤ expecting ":", identifier or ")"␤ at /tmp/zUlUKdj2UX line 1, column 5␤]
..rakudo: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "([2,[3,4],"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤called from Sub 'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statementlist' pc 18770 (src/gen_grammar.pir:2734)␤called from Sub
..'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statement_block' pc 15616 (src/gen_grammar.pir:1612)␤called f...
mncharity perl6: say([2,[3,4],5]); 11:32
exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[2 3 4 5␤]
..pugs: OUTPUT[2 3 4 5␤]
..rakudo: OUTPUT[2345␤]
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lvh_ make test shows a lot of lines like 7/160 skipped: various reasons 11:47
pugs_svnbot r20461 | putter++ | [elf] say() formatting slightly improved. Any::say() method added. Autoboxing no longer unavailable in EmitSimpleP5's prelude.
lvh_ Normal? 11:48
moritz_ lvh_: normal
lvh_: which "make test" are you talking about? parrots? 11:49
mncharity That elf now (almost) passes t/spec/S16-io/say.t says unfortunate things about its coverage. Things like "there are no tests of hashes". Contribution of failing tests would be appreciated. 11:50
moritz_ I'll put that into Auzon++s TODO for is summer of code project ;) 11:57
mncharity :) 11:58
moritz_ actually there's quite a lot of stuff mentioned during the last week regarding test suite TODOs
so I think the project is really worth it 11:59
mncharity agreed.
oh wow. t/blocks/placeholders.t actually parses. insufficiently evil corner cases. :) 12:03
yeah, having folks sit down to generate a truly rigorous test suite is badly needed. 12:05
hmm, will be badly needed. can't say it's really the bottleneck at the moment, but will hopefully become so.
mncharity contemplates converting STD_red into p6... lot's o hours... 12:11
lvh_ moritz_: yes 12:17
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lvh_ why do people here always say Auzon++ instead of just Auzon? I know about karmabots but this is ridiculous :-p 12:29
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moritz_ programmers love ridiculous stuff ;) 12:37
lvh_: even you increment his karma ,) 12:38
[particle] lvh_++ # this is ridiculous :-p 12:49
pugs_svnbot r20462 | putter++ | [elf] Require new autobox-2.51, and decompose SCALAR into STRING, INTEGER, and FLOAT. Also make sure Moose is current. 12:54
moritz_ it's not even on my cpan mirror, and you already require it as the minimum version ;) 12:55
mncharity lol 12:57
:/ sorry about that.
moritz_ nah, don't bother. It's the right thing to do ;)
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moritz_ mncharity: run-tests hangs after printing xx-uncategorized/io_finalize_part1.t 13:27
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mncharity looking... 13:31
(my guess is now that more loops are recognized and emitted, we'll start seeing non-terminations. run-tests should probably use ulimit) 13:32
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mncharity yeah, part2.t sleep's in a loop, waiting for part1.t to successfully run... a long wait. 13:35
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masak how can I emulate coro/yield with given/take? by calling given in a void context? 13:36
mncharity adding ulimit to run-tests. you should be able to kill the elf which is waiting, and thus unstick run-tests.
masak: I think you mean gather/take? 13:42
masak oops, yes
still, how? 13:43
mncharity re ulimit... but that won't help us here. :/ it's not running cpu-bound, but sleeping. can bound cpu sec, but not runtime sec. 13:47
re how,
mncharity tries to remember gather/take...
masak :)
I know about it closing over a dynamic scope 13:48
and I can see how that would enable amulation of coros
but I feel I need to be spoon-fed a complete example
doesn't need to be fancy, tho'
mncharity the only thing which comes immediately to mind is that gather is defined to return a lazy list. so that list becomes a handle for transferring control back into the gather block (by looking for the next value in the list). 13:52
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masak mncharity: I'm with you so far 13:55
seems we are stuck at about the same place along the road to findout
maybe an example of how gather/take could be used to emaulate coro could be included in the spec 13:56
mncharity maybe something like my @a = gather { while 1 { say "again!"; take(13) }}; @a.pop; #=>again! @a.pop; #=>again! gimme_the_ability_to_again(@a);
masak yes, that looks like some sort of coro-ing 13:57
masak 's head swims
it _is_ a powerful construct
mncharity there is no doubt a cute little unix command for limiting the realtime duration of a process... /me struggles to find it... 13:58
[particle] IPC::Run has a portable timeout implementation 14:02
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mncharity "In words of the author of IPC::Run > I would personally recommend IPC::Cmd rather than IPC::Run right now." 14:08
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[particle] i have been using IPC::Run in production on windows for 4+ years 14:09
if IPC::Cmd has timeout, that may be fine too. just don't know it. 14:10
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mncharity re timeout, yeah, I don't see it. :/ 14:12
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pmurias use v5 is assumed to be a lexical grammar changing module right? 14:40
by STD.pm
rephrasing my question in a human-readable form, STD.pm assumes that v5 invokes v5.pm (or similiar) that changes the grammar? 14:42
s/in/into
moritz_ I'd expect it to take over the parsing 14:43
do you really think you can built a sane parse tree or even AST for perl5 code?
pmurias moritz_: you = me? or you = someone? 14:45
moritz_ you = anybody 14:46
they say "nothing but perl can parse Perl", and I believe this to be true for Perl 5
pmurias why not? MAD does it
moritz_: it's even more true for Perl6 14:47
[particle] it's also true for perl 6
however, if you ignore BEGIN in perl 6, you can parse it without perl 6
this is not true for perl 5
moritz_ aye 14:53
pmurias [particle]: an example please ;) 14:55
[particle] www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=44722 14:57
moritz_ pmurias: p5 has really nasty things like prototypes, and heuristics when a { is a block or a hash 14:58
pmurias: and things like foo / ... is ambigous, you don't know if / a division or a beginning regex unless you know foo's prototype 14:59
Khisanth but perl5 is a bit of a moving target anyway :)
moritz_ all the worse ;) 15:01
but let's finish the thought - even if we could parse p5, what then? We can't reimplement all of perl5 on parrot 15:02
so we'd have to link in a perl interpreter anyway
Khisanth can't or don't have the resources to do it? 15:06
moritz_ both 15:07
Patterner 5.4: 1997 5.6: 2000 5.8: 2002 5.10: 2007 Moving like greased snails.
moritz_ I believe it's impossible to clone such a complex piece of software that's defined by implementation, not by specs
Patterner the Test Suite is the Spec. 15:08
moritz_ I wish it were so
the Spec is a mixture of test suite, documentation, previous behaviour and a what you might call "common sense" 15:09
pmurias mncharity: if you wish to do start a second backend and port the STD_red to perl6, doing a ruby backend might make sense 15:10
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mncharity surfaces, backlogs 15:15
pugs_svnbot r20463 | putter++ | [elf] run-tests will now timeout non-terminating tests. moritz_++ particle++
pmurias a proper js backend would be very usefull, but js would likely require lots of workarounds 15:16
mncharity: hi
mncharity hi pmurias 15:17
re IPC, what a zoo. the python folks "recently" did a cleanup of their IPC stuff. Someone should clone their api. This seems to be one of those "pile of CPAN modules, variously unmaintained, buggy, or not quite the right thing". 15:19
re porting STD_red to p6, 15:20
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mncharity pros include () lower barrier to entry for elf. () elf can become a p5 module, and then relocatable/renamable (ie, so you can have multiple p6 instances in a p5 process). () full bootstrap. () closer to running on non-p5 languages. () perhaps easier for more people to hack on it. () ... 15:23
cons include () extra source of uncertainty while debugging (but what is _really_ running?). () somewhat longer edit-test cycle. () ... 15:24
() lots of hours work... 15:25
s/IPC/process management/
pmurias i don't understand the first con 15:26
mncharity with ruby, one can be fairly sure that the source you are looking at corresponds closely to what is running. with the extra p6 compiled to p5 step, without looking at the p5, you would never quite certain if something odd isn't an elf compiler artifact. 15:28
pmurias happend with mp6 a lot
a couple of times
but the generated code was clean so it could be hand checked if the bug appeared to be strange enough 15:29
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mncharity so far it hasn't been a big issue with elf. but part of that may just be that I've been conservative in dialect, and having written it, have a feel for what is less likely to bite. be interesting to see what happens as others start writing hunks of code. 15:32
but big hit is hours. probably cost 2 or 3 person days. 15:33
moritz_ elf can already parse 70% of the tests. Shouldn't you focus on running mor of them first? 15:34
*more
mncharity could be. would you be more enthused by pure p6/p5-ness, or say 90% non-parsefail? 15:36
pmurias: re js, yeah, that would be nifty. :) 15:37
moritz_ 90% non-parsefail
because then it could be a *real* help for writing the test suite 15:38
having a syntax checker helps
mncharity as long as the performance wasn't too bad. PIL2JS was too slow to be usable. we should be able to do better compilation in elf (if not, something is very wrong), and js implementations are faster, so in principle we should be able to get near native js speed, just as we currently have near native p5 speed.
re syntax checker, one difficulty is that you never really know if a parse is correct until you try to use it and test the result. hmm, though that's less of a problem with STD than it was with redsix - backtracking lets the parser search out all sorts of weird false parses one didn't anticipate. 15:40
moritz_ mncharity: even a non-authoritive syntax checker is great 15:42
mncharity pmurias: re "lots of workarounds", ... I started to ask which... yeah, lots of work. 15:45
moritz_: re checker, I guess the gotcha is it doesn't seem to get me closer to other people working on elf... 15:46
or using it even
search.cpan.org/~vpit/Variable-Magi...e/Magic.pm <- intriguing 15:52
lambdabot Title: Variable::Magic - Associate user-defined magic to variables from Perl. - search. ..., tinyurl.com/65bqv9
pmurias mncharity: why do you use (sub {})->()? 15:53
isn't do {} better
mncharity search.cpan.org/~tbusch/JavaScript-...nkey-0.19/ search.cpan.org/~claesjac/JavaScrip...aScript.pm 15:55
lambdabot Title: Thomas Busch / JavaScript-SpiderMonkey-0.19 - search.cpan.org
mncharity pmurias: for 'is p5'? me greps... 15:56
err, which/where? 15:57
pmurias output of t/builtins/my.t 15:58
mncharity looking... 15:59
pmurias should i paste the offending bit? 16:00
;)
mncharity ah, bare blocks. my impression is 16:01
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mncharity bare blocks are param-less self-executing routines. could be wrong. was thinking that this way, whatever we eventually do to get routines more real (local()ization, $_, etc) would then "just happen". 16:02
also didn't think of it :) 16:03
pmurias you are likely right 16:04
mncharity it's actually happening on the AST->IR conversion step, rather than the emitter. hmm... having the emitter then try to optimize, having lost information, seems non-ideal. could have an extra IR node... :/ 16:05
moritz_ beware that 'return' does something different 16:06
in do { ... } it exits the surrounding sub
in (sub { ... })->() it doesn't
mncharity I guess the key would be whether things like $?ROUTINE are altered inside of a block or not. if not, then it really isn't a sub, and the IR should be changed.
ah, there's an even better one. 16:07
hmm... svn up is hanging again... 16:09
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moritz_ 17:22 <@Juerd> Oh, outage. Have to run. 16:13
don't know if that's connected 16:14
I can't ssh to feather
mncharity ^.^ 16:16
ok, I've a fixed version for whenever we get svn back. good catch. 16:18
re "you are likely right"... or so not :) 16:19
moritz_ Juerd: I can ping feather, but there's no way to connect to it (ssh and http time out)
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mncharity pmurias: anything else seem odd? 16:23
or, whenever you notice or are puzzled by something, let me know... odds are good it's a thinko. 16:25
pmurias haven't found anything yet ;)
mncharity :)
pmurias the syntax error (lack of semicolon) was a bit out of the ordinary too 16:28
mncharity my.t?
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pmurias yes 16:30
svk pull hangs :( 16:31
pasteling Someone at 81.168.228.98 pasted "error isolated" (10 lines, 279B) at sial.org/pbot/31080 16:32
pmurias semi-isolated :(
mncharity re my.t, looks like a misparse... 16:36
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mncharity hmm. so there seem to be at least two problems. there's an infix:is which is preempting the interpretation of the sub is(). and the infix:is is crawling out of the block, likely via the EXPR "lets move the ops around" system. upside is it probably affects a lot of files. 16:43
"Why did p6 take 5 years 'till Christmas? Well, we had to write a parser for it..." :) 16:44
that clears up the question of what to work on today... thanks :) 16:46
pmurias np ;)
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mncharity re 'two problems', nope. "{4}\nis(3);". it's not stopping after the }, and since there's an infix:is, it becomes infix:is({4},(3)). cute. 16:54
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pmurias swimming& 17:11
mncharity *envious*
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mncharity TimToady: (n+1) It looks like EXPR is willing to eat "{3}\nis(4)" because there is currently no stopper check between the expect_term and the expect_infix, and Test's sub is() resembles infix:is. Adding a 'last if stdstopper' avoids the over eating. 17:15
bummer no svn 17:17
hmm, and search.cpan.org is busted. 17:37
ie, returning no matches for "any" search. 17:38
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pmurias mncharity: what do you want to find on cpan? 17:40
mncharity used kobesearch.cpan.org , was looking for padwalker 17:42
do you know of any module which provides a "current-environment" aka "binding" abstraction? ie, 17:43
eval('$b',Binding.new) where Binding.new captures the enclosing sub and package, so a padwalker elsewhere can access '$b'. 17:44
pmurias no
mncharity oky. that's one which would be easier in ruby&CL, but can deal... 17:46
pmurias but walker only works on the pads which are in the current call chain
so the absoulte depth would be enough
mncharity challenge is p6 eval calls compiler which calls assorted methods which eventually calls eval_perl5 and p5's eval(). oh, which doesn't take an environment, so even if the info is routed, you still lose with lexicals. :/ 17:48
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pmurias mncharity: you can still access them by passing the right int to peek_my()? 17:50
mncharity re lexicals, so p6 eval() has to be emitted as foo(sub{my($p5)=@_;eval($p5)}) so the p5 gets eval()ed in the right place. 17:51
re int, yes, with everyone... was going to say everyone tracking their frames, but since the p5 compiler is free to discard frames, that would be problematic. might be able to use a marker variable, so 17:53
search up the stack until you see the "I am eval()" marker, and then go one frame further.
pmurias but we would accessing the vars in a funny way 17:54
or playing with LexAlias a lot
really swimming&
mncharity but that still leaves the problem of "yes you can look up vars, but that doesn't directly help you evaluate code". where the sub approach perhaps work.
17:55 pugs_svnbot left, pmichaud left
mncharity :) 17:55
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[particle] svn's back up 17:56
pugs_svnbot r20464 | particle++ | [fudge] recognize 'nok' as a valid test function
r20465 | particle++ | [spectest] use 'nok' where appropriate to test truth, add tests for True vs Bool::True, etc. 17:59
Auzon particle++ indeed. ok(not(...)) is annoying to write. 18:00
[particle] Auzon, moritz_: btw `svn log | ack -A 99 -iw auzon -r 20000:HEAD` works great to get the log of just your commits since r20000 18:01
Auzon Excellent.
18:01 Juerd joined
Auzon Now to figure out what all those ack commands do... :P 18:01
[particle] --thppt 18:02
Auzon My version mentions --thpppt, but --thppt works too 18:03
Tene as does --thppppppppppppppppppppppppt 18:05
alester Auzon: EVERYTHING. THEY DO EVERYTHING. THEY ARE ALL POWERFUL.
Auzon alester: "It does awesome is what it does."? 18:06
alester THAT IS CORRECT
AWESOME IS ACK'S MIDDLE NAME. 18:07
Juerd I'm DISABLING apache2 on feather until someone has tuits to find out what the hell causes the memory problems
[particle] that's gonna hurt somebody's feelings, juerd :) 18:08
Juerd [particle]: The current situation is that feather crashes every few days, and people lose work because of that.
I have no tuits to find the problem. Someone must know what happened because it started happening one specific moment.
Letting apache2 run like this is no option as far as I'm concerned. 18:09
Either something has to be made that kills it when it consumes too much memory, or the leak must be found and plugged. 18:10
[particle] understood. i'm sure with apache2 being down, somebody'll find it
any way to notify folks who may try to restart it about the problems?
...rather than have somebody blindly restart it and cause problems again.
Auzon Juerd: Does that include the main Apache2 instance? 18:15
18:16 braceta left
Eevee you know, computers suck 18:16
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mncharity  Juerd: if it happens every few days... what about a nightly reboot? *innocent look* 18:17
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[particle] fix >> hack 18:22
mncharity notes ulimit -v # The maximum amount of virtual memory available to the shell 18:24
TimToady back home 18:25
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TimToady re infix, my expect_infix contains <!infixstopper> 18:25
which should also check stdstopper
Auzon oh. Regarding limiting resources, you might want BSD::Resource 18:26
TimToady (but apparently doesn't yet)
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Juerd Auzon: I don't know and I don't have time to figure it out. 18:32
[particle]: Whoever wants to investigate can get root access to enable apache2 and then fix it.
But I'm not going to start Apache2 without that volunteer. 18:33
[particle] ok, i figured there are folks with root that might just restart apache2 blindly
i'll watch the channel for traffic wrt that
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TimToady in any case, I'm refactoring all the stopper logic in various directions to be more LTM friendly 18:40
on the plane home I rewrote the regex parser to use EXPR to parse ||, |, &&, & for instance 18:44
it just derives a new expect_term and expect_infix
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[particle] cooooool 19:22
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pmurias mncharity: you could even emitt it as eval(foo(...)) it looks cleaner but is less flexible 19:41
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mncharity pmurias: got it working. awaiting svn. 19:51
re "to parse ||, |, &&, &", ^.^!
19:52 braceta left
mncharity hmm, someone will just have to create a Smiley.pm with lots of smiley ops which do something. 19:52
ooo, svn back
spinclad *<8oO
*<8-0 19:53
?:-[ # headscratch
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
pugs_svnbot r20466 | putter++ | [STD_red] Added stdstopper to EXPR, to avoid "{3}\nis(4)" being one EXPR. TT reports it should be in infixstopper instead. 19:57
r20467 | putter++ | [elf] Emit bare blocks as do{}. pmurias++ moritz_++ 20:00
r20468 | putter++ | [t] Added ;'s to improperly terminated "ends in the middle of a line" blocks.
20:01 Caelum left
mncharity r20466 should have been pmurias++ too 20:01
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mncharity waits for self bootstraping cycle to complete. pmurias: it's about to be eval($expr,sub{my$s=eval($_[0]);Carp::carp($@)if$@;$s}) where the later is passed around as an environment handle. 20:03
should be doing a wantarray, but... will wait for testfails to add it. 20:04
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pugs_svnbot r20469 | putter++ | [elf] my $d;eval('$d') now works. 20:09
mncharity pmurias: re eval(foo), oh.... there's an idea... 20:12
though eval($exp,$env?) perhaps requires less magicalness from eval(). and can grow into a non-hack (we really should have a current-environment concept). 20:14
pmurias i meant it to be eval(compile_to_p5("...p6 code...")) so it would use the minimum of magicalness 20:24
mncharity right, but then eval() isn't really a p6 sub any more. we're treating it like a macro. which is fine, but... perhaps not clearly preferable. 20:29
pugs_svnbot r20470 | putter++ | [elf] Update run-tests.result_faster .
mncharity ie, the p6 eval('') macro-expands to <the underlying p5 eval>(compile_to_p5('')) vs moving towards something vaguely like sub *eval($expr,$env=CALLER::binding){} or somesuch 20:42
CALLER::environment ... whatever
pugs_svnbot r20471 | putter++ | [elf] 'loop (my $x=1;$x<4;$x++) {say $x}' now runs. Scoping is no doubt in need of fixing.
mncharity ruby-doc.org/core-1.9/classes/Binding.html docs.python.org/ref/exec.html ha, but not CommonLisp www.lisp.org/HyperSpec/Body/fun_eval.html#eval 20:43
lambdabot Title: Class: Binding
mncharity www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Bigloo/d....html#Eval 20:44
lambdabot Title: R5RsScheme Revised(5) Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
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mncharity so t/builtins/my.t still shows some scoping (and other?) issues, but the whole thing now runs. 20:46
might be nice to have something like ruby's somewhat-smalltalk-inspired ruby-doc.org/core-1.9/index.html documentation. 20:49
lambdabot Title: RDoc Documentation
mncharity pmurias: btw, thank you so much for championing elf_f_faster. it makes this exercise sooo much more pleasant. 20:52
eep. ./STD_red_run -e '!foo()' #=> dotty:! !?! 20:55
spinclad: assorted exclamations "!#*!?!" could also be operators. :)
spinclad (: balanced brackets :) 20:57
mncharity lol 20:58
oh my, nofat_space et al are gone from STD.pm...
spinclad *<8-O SHOUT! O-8>*
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mncharity TimToady: (n+1) statement_control:loop's rule() seems to require ws between 'loop' and '('? the hints example about it shows it without 21:01
re SHOUT!, boldface ansi terminal code print STDERR. 21:02
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Eevee mncharity: !foo() is always prefix 21:10
perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#line_237
lambdabot Title: S12
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mncharity ah, thanks! 21:16
TimToady: (n+1) it looks like noun parsers '!foo()' as dotty:<!> rather than prefix:<!> ? 21:17
btw, I've been using the 'TimToady: (' format consistently, so it can be searched out of the web-or-other log. 21:18
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mncharity Does anyone know of a way to tell the perl compiler "please don't optimize away variables - look, there's an eval() here"? 21:20
moritz_ don't think so, except just listing the variables 21:21
$var1; $var2; $var3; etc
mncharity that does it. ok, something for the infinite compiler todo list... maybe, depending on spec. 21:24
hmm, though t/spec/S29-context/eval.t test 1 depends on an unused variable not being optimized away. 21:25
moritz_ I think an eval() should prevent a compiler from optimizing away any variables, except for including them in closures 21:28
which is the way perl 5 works
pmurias does perl5 optimize away variables?
moritz_ but that's a nice question for p6l
pmurias: only from closures
pmurias moritz_: example please? can't find out anything myself? 21:31
s:2nd/?//
moritz_ pmurias: wait a sec 21:32
pasteling "moritz_" at 89.13.241.101 pasted "perl5 optimizes variables away from closures (for pmurias)" (15 lines, 202B) at sial.org/pbot/31081 21:34
pugs_svnbot r20472 | putter++ | [STD_red] Disabled dotty:<!> so '!foo()' gets prefix:<!> instead.
Eevee ..ah, tricky 21:35
moritz_ pmurias: in this example you'll see that $y isn't in $closure's lex pad
pmurias thanks 21:37
g' night 21:43
mncharity good night 21:48
Anyone know what lexical scope $/ should have? 22:05
rakudo: "ab" ~~ /b/; say $/; 22:06
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Parrot VM: Can't stat languages/perl6/perl6.pbc, code 2.␤main: Packfile loading failed␤]
mncharity :/
moritz_ uhm, are there different lexical scopes?
rakudo: "ab" ~~ /b/; say $/;
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[b␤]
moritz_ mncharity: it was just a race condition with the build cronjob 22:07
mncharity wondering about "ab" ~~ /b/; say $/; { "abc" ~~ /c/; say $/; } say $/; 22:08
re cronjob, ah! :)
namely, is $/ my'ed in any block which contains a rx? a single $/ my'ed at the top of a sub? 22:09
moritz_ uhm, good question
mncharity rakudo: "ab" ~~ /b/; say $/; { "abc" ~~ /c/; say $/; }; say $/ 22:10
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[b␤c␤b␤]
moritz_ pugs: "ab" ~~ m/a/; { "ab" ~~ m/b/; say $/; }; say $/;
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[b␤b␤]
moritz_ so they behave quite differently 22:11
mncharity with the rakudo behavior, one wouldn't be able to do given $n { when 3 { $x ~~ /3/ }; when 4 { $x ~~ /4/ }; }; say $/; 22:12
re differently, yeah.
[particle] the answer lies within the #parrot log for last night 22:13
mncharity LOL
grasshopper goes in search of the log...
[particle] www.parrotcode.org/misc/parrotsketc...t.20080519 22:14
lambdabot tinyurl.com/629aef
[particle] starting around "<pmichaud> I still have to figure out the real semantics of $/, $_, and $?" 22:15
shower &
moritz_ irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/2008-05-19#i_299699 and later
lambdabot Title: IRC log for #parrot, 2008-05-19
moritz_ though I don't quite understand the discussion I'm afraid 22:16
ah, reading a bit on it seems to get a bit clearer 22:18
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mncharity 'my $+x;' declared bogus, ah well, elf will need edits. 22:22
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mncharity wants lots of tests capturing that conversation 22:30
looks like there might be distinct Block and "immediate block" concepts... sounds like maybe a new IR node... but I'm still unclear on it 22:31
Auzon Duly noted.
mncharity :)
eep. looks like a bunch of local()s are needed in every sub call. :/ 22:32
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Auzon I'm still slowly experimenting with a safemode for elf. I'm thinking of just disabling the file IO, Perl 5 evals, and running it under BSD::Resource or similar. Ideally I could make an EmitSaferPerl5.pm with all of these hacks in it, but I'm a bit lost in elf's architecture. 22:34
I found out that I can just add croak("...") if $ENV{ELF_SAFEMODE} in the prelude, but that seems a bit invasive.
s/in the prelude/in the relevant subroutines in the prelude/ 22:35
moritz_ and you'd need a way of disabling $ENV{ELF_SAFEMODE} = 0;
pugs_svnbot r20473 | putter++ | [elf,STD_red] Parse regex adverbial modifiers.
Auzon I checked, and it doesn 22:36
doesn't matter if you do that
mncharity Auzon: re architecture, any questions? 22:37
Auzon I believe that's because Elf doesn't give a copy of the environment to the scripts.
mncharity re disable p5 evals, I'm not sure you can. eg, PrimitivesP5's getting $*PID from $$.
moritz_ but you can formulate that as subs exported from the prelude 22:38
sub get_pid { $$ }
mncharity re "Elf doesn't give a copy of the environment to the scripts", you mean elf doesn't have a %*ENV? 22:39
moritz_ no need for a perl 5 eval that's callable from p6
Auzon I hand-modified a copy of elf_f_faster to have eval_perl5 croak if ELF_SAFEMODE was set. It seemed to work OK. 22:40
mncharity re get_pid, trying to go in the other direction. moving things to PrimitivesP5. any runtime calling convention changes would have to be hand edits in the EmitSimpleP5 core prelude, but happen automagically in Primitives.
any p5 based runtime should be able to use Primitives. but the p5 code in Emit is specific to a particular runtime design. 22:41
moritz_ ok, I don't know how the different parts of your runtime are called
Auzon elf_f_safe -e 'say $*PID' works. 22:42
oh, duh
Hm. 22:43
my elf_f_safe isn't correct somehow
mncharity the prelude is composed of () stuff in EmitSimpleP5.pm (as a string), () PrimitivesP5.pm which is p6, but is allowed to do sub foo() is p5 {'this is p5'}, and () Prelude.pm which is supposed to be backend independent p6.
moritz_ mncharity: do you have some kind of architectural overview of elf_f?
mncharity so () depends on particular p5 runtime, () depends on p5, () works anywher. 22:44
no, still just winging it.
ie, the current set of design choices are considered all experimental/peliminary, and subject to "may change at any moment without notice". 22:45
moritz_ heh ;) 22:46
moritz_ notices that his waking times don't overlap too much with mncharity's and Auzon's :(
mncharity :/ 22:47
Auzon Waking times? What're those? :P
moritz_ off to bed now
Auzon Ah...
I'll try to wake up earlier then. :)
mncharity good night moritz_. thanks for the help today
Auzon See you, moritz_
moritz_ how do you say "waking times" in proper english? 22:48
mncharity Auzon: I really don't think the "disable <pause>
err, hmm...
Auzon I don't know. I was just joking about my messed up sleep schedule.
moritz_ ok ;)
bed &
mncharity "when you are away" ?
*awake
"work hours", so... "sleeping hours"? so... 22:49
hmm. puzzlement
Auzon Seems that $*PID is forbidden under my safemode hack, too. 22:52
mncharity <unpause> Auzon: I really don't think the "disable p5 eval" is a viable strategy... hmm... if it happened after the prelude was loaded... and obviously didn't apply to p5 eval via p6 eval... which is a big hole there... hmm, I just don't know...
if you can delay safety until after the prelude runs, then maybe. but if before, I expect the prelude to go boom. 22:54
(note of context: I was quite dubious for a while about pmurias's seeking a non-Moose variant of elf... which turned out to be a big win, so... I may well be wrong). 22:55
what I'm very reluctant to do is alter how elf gets architected in pursuit of "safe", where the RightThing is instead an external vm box. 22:58
which means theirs "the other shoe drops" potential... it works... a new bit of prelude gets built... it can no longer work... . maybe. 22:59
*there's
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mncharity sound vaguely plausible? 23:02
Auzon Hm...
Well, evalbot is already in a chroot. 23:03
mncharity as long as it doesn't have permission to edit the filesystem, can't access sensitive info, can't send spam, has short runtime limit, etc, then that should be fine, no? 23:07
Auzon spam and runtime limit are what I'm trying to prevent
I'm thinking that BSD::Resource could help, without imposing any requirements on elf itself.
Or maybe something in evalbot to keep it from running beyond ~5 seconds. 23:09
mncharity spam is controlled by what (isn't) in the chroot. limits can be imposed by a wrapper script. runtime, memory, filehandles, etc. ulimit handles much of it. run-tests is using a simple alarm timer for runtime. looking at BSD::Resource...
re 5 sec, sounds plausible. elf_f has a ~2 sec startup overhead. for the usual irc channel stuff, responses should be sub-second after that. 23:11
Auzon Would you rather use elf_f_faster in the evalbot? 23:13
That's what I was planning, but I'm not sure how much it sacrifices compared to elf_f 23:14
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mncharity good question. it's very slightly less capable than elf_f. i don't know how that will play out. ? perhaps a elf/elf_bot symlink? that also deals with elf_g eventually coming out. 23:15
at the moment, I believe the only difference is array instance variables are not initialized. has @.a; but I haven't looked closely at it. 23:16
s/it/the issue/
Auzon Yeah. I'm making the build script, so I could do something like that. Maybe look for the recommended version in README, or have it find the latest version 23:17
mncharity BSD::Resource looks neat.
Auzon Or maybe I'll just need to update the build script for every new elf iteration, unless they can all be compiled in a similar way
mncharity the latest version has sometimes been "known not to work". so a manual approach is probably better. 23:18
don't have to compile anything. elf is in the repo.
Auzon re BSD::Resource, indeed. I recall using it a few years ago for something or other.
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mncharity that was literally a one-line change. :) 23:21
pugs_svnbot r20474 | putter++ | [elf] Added %*ENV. 'say %*ENV<PATH>' works. Auzon++
Auzon Does elf support the .perl method yet? 23:22
mncharity no. was waiting for someone to be interested or to do it. 23:23
Juerd What is elf?
Auzon supper & 23:24
mncharity thanks Auzon. may do a .perl(), taking your question as interest. :) 23:26
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mncharity Juerd: you're kidding, no? /me seems to have seriously misjudged visibility among #perl6 folks. elf is... 23:27
Juerd mncharity: Really I have no idea. 23:28
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mncharity elf is an implementation of p6, composed of a backend written in p6, and a frontend written in ruby hand derived from STD.pm. 23:28
Juerd mncharity: I have very, very few tuits available to Perl 6.
I see
My main complaint about Perl 6 development is that it's so invisible if you're not actively tracking it. 23:29
There are no mailing list summaries, there's just a bunch of blogs. And that's very limited.
mncharity the backend self-compiles, it uses a p5 runtime in an almost-but-not-quite pure manner (there are one or two dangling kludges), and a small single digit percent of the t/ test suite is passing. 23:30
Juerd Mainly, my impressions of Perl 6 are limited to the design meeting minutes posted by chromatic, and the rakudo progress info posted by jnthn
Which t/ test suite?
mncharity pugs
Juerd Then anything >1% is impressive for something so young that I didn't know about it yet :)
mncharity misc/elf/run-tests.result_faster
lol
Juerd That test suite is huge. 23:31
mncharity misc/STD_red is actually up to parsing ~70% of the files.
some fraction of which are even correct parses. ;)
Juerd ...correctly? :)
mncharity lol
Juerd Right.
mncharity maybe I should do another design meeting. or send a note. previous experience of the former was not a win. 23:33
visibility has been intentionally lowish. t/ just started being run a few days ago. 23:34
Files: 813. 602 parsed 74%. 239 run 29%. 44 ok 5%. Tests: 16409+. 620 ok <3.77%, 15789+ not. Though a commit or two behind. 23:36
run means a plan was seen, so the p5 emitted wasn't so invalid perl or strict died. 23:37
*died immediately
meppl good night 23:42
mncharity the primary objective of elf is to encourage potential p6 implementation developers to be active. ie, to write a p6 compiler in p6. with the resulting pushing on spec, and on p5 runtime. current attempt to achieve that is to focus on t/. other possibilities are
good night meppl :)
completing the bootstrap by translating STD_red to p6, providing a fast p6 regex on p5 implementation that p5 developers can use, and... other ideas welcome. 23:43
meppl ;) 23:50
Auzon Juerd: re elf, it compiles/runs in Perl 5, and is quite fast. The regular variant is <3s for say "hello, world", and the fast variant is ~.25s 23:55
elf also only requires Ruby 1.9, Perl, and a few modules, so it's pretty easy to get running 23:58

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