»ö« | perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot: perl6: say 3;' | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz_ on 27 June 2009.
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pmichaud wayland76: eliminating the $(EXE) was probably an oversight on my part. In the ins branch I was just trying to see if I could get -anything- to work. 00:08
wayland76 Ok
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pmichaud I'll probably try again tomorrow night or Thursday sometime. 00:08
wayland76 I'll use your patch as a base for a new patch I'm working on (basically trying to redo the Rakudo RPM based on what you've done, rather than Allison's multiple make files) 00:09
pmichaud okay. I'm not sure the single makefile approach is going to work, though (more)
wayland76 If I get anything useful, I'll post it as a patch on the ticket I just mentioned
pmichaud the parrot tools seem to have a problem with not being run from the src/pmc/ directory.
wayland76 Hmm. That's bad
So are you saying the ins branch still doesn't work then? 00:11
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ihrd hi there 00:12
pmichaud Yes, fsvo "work"
Correct, the ins branch still doesn't work on many platforms
I'm going to start over with a new branch
(based on recent changes to parrot, and lessons learned from the ins branch)
(branches are cheap)
wayland76 ok
Well, I won't do any work based on what you have already done then :)
pmichaud I will need some testing of the new branch. 00:13
if you're offerring free work, I want to take you up on that :-)
so
maybe I'll bump install to tonight
if you'd be available to play with itsoon 00:14
wayland76 It's morning here, and I can set aside some time today to do things with it
pmichaud I probably won't have anything donewith it for another 7-8 hrs 00:15
wayland76 I'll start building the new Parrot, so that I'm all prepared
oh, ok
ihrd I tring to make last Rakudo (414f798c1f) on top of Parrot rev. 40201, and if falls with "perl6_ops_switch.o: No such file or directory", any suggestions?
pmichaud (it's only 5:15p here, and I still have more OSCON events to attend)
wayland76 Well, I'll see if I can get some time this evening
8 hours from now is 6pm here 00:16
pmichaud ihrd: Rakudo is frozen to the latest Parrot release
(until the Rakudo release)
a bunch of Parrot changes went in this morning, Rakudo won't catch up to those until after its release
(and depending on the scope of the Parrot changes, perhaps not even then)
wayland76 Anyway, I can still build Parrot in preparation for testing Rakudo 00:17
pmichaud wayland76: if you can get to it tonight, great; if not, then tomorrow would be fine.
ihrd ok, I will try latest parrot release, thank you
pmichaud ihrd: easiest is to use the --gen-parrot option to Rakudo's Configure.pl
that way you're assured to get the prpoer release.
(proper
wayland76 pmichaud: ok, thanks
ihrd pimchaud: I like to make parrot with --optimize 00:18
Can I specify this when I use --gen-parrot somehow?
pmichaud --gen-parrot --gen-parrot-option=--optimize 00:19
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ihrd pimchaud: thank you very much 00:19
pugs_svn r27659 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]: Unfudge a strings.t test for Rakudo.
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dalek kudo: 78644a3 | pmichaud++ | (2 files):
Add Junction.Str, update Makefile.
 00:23
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missingthepoint_ where can I find out about Unicode in Perl6? 00:32
I'd read the spec, but, well... :)
pmichaud what do you want to know about unicode in perl 6? 00:33
missingthepoint_ pmichaud: everything, preferably a little at a time.
#perl6 backlogs?
pmichaud missingthepoint_: essentially, all strings in Perl 6 are unicode strings. 00:34
missingthepoint_ can you define "strings"? :)
pmichaud strings are sequences of glyphs
missingthepoint_ and "glyphs" are glyphs as defined by Unicode? 00:35
pmichaud right now rakudo generally has strings as sequences of codepoints
and yes, they're codepoints as defined by Unicode
Limbic_Region isn't it supposed to be characters, bytes and graphemes?
has "glyph" been added to the spec
Limbic_Region is sooooo far behind the times
pmichaud oh, perhaps grapheme is correct 00:36
I knew it started with a 'g' :-)
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missingthepoint_ ok, so how do [glyphs|graphemes] relate to P6 types? 00:37
Buf? Str? Int? :)
pmichaud From S02:
wayland76 Int is unrelated to unicode
pmichaud However, since a C<Str> object may fill multiple roles, 00:38
we say that a C<Str> keeps track of its minimum and maximum Unicode
abstraction levels, and plays along nicely with the current lexical
scope's idea of the ideal character, whether that is bytes, codepoints,
graphemes, or characters in some language.
wayland76 Buf is "bytes". It doesn't know whether it's unicode or not, and may need to be turned into a string before doing anything displaywise 00:39
pmichaud the default unicode abstraction level is "graphemes"
missingthepoint_ That sounds kinda like weasel words: "current lexical scope's idea of the ideal character"
pmichaud Buf is compact array of integers
which may not actually be "bytes"
buf8 is bytes
wayland76 ah, yes, thanks :) 00:40
Limbic_Region comb works on characters by default right?
wayland76 missingthepoint_: In what way?
missingthepoint_ so (terminology could be off), a lexical scope's ideal character is a grapheme by default? 00:41
wayland76 I assumed that it means that the current lexical scope has a marker somewhere that says what it wants
pmichaud missingthepoint_: something like that, yes.
wayland76 and Str plays happily with that
missingthepoint_ wayland76: not sure, need to think through it more to decide whether it's hand waving :) 00:42
or somesuch
wayland76 missingthepoint_: The whole spec is Larry's handwaving, and then we have to implement it (although when I say "we", I should clarify that I've done very little myself) 00:43
missingthepoint_ wayland76: His handwaving seems to be better than most other people's hard work. 00:44
wayland76 missingthepoint_: Well, maybe he's waving very hard :) 00:45
missingthepoint_ wayland76: :)
wayland76 And admittedly, he's been getting feedback from the developers and clarifying things based on that
missingthepoint_ thanks pmichaud and wayland76, just reading through your responses :) 00:46
ok, reading the unicode spec, i think "graphemes" is the correct term 00:49
IIUC a glyph is a symbol, or a rendering of a character 00:50
and "the unicode standard encodes characters, not glyphs" -- 2.2 p13 00:51
i wonder if it's a) possible and b) helpful to link to relevant bits of the unicode standard from within the specs? 00:54
pmichaud right, I got "glyph" and "grapheme" swapped. 00:55
wayland76 missingthepoint_: This sounds more like something for the U4X project 00:56
missingthepoint_ pmichaud: "terminology soup" is what i generally think about unicode :) 00:58
wayland76: ok, you're right. this is userdocs, not spec 00:59
pmichaud yes, I agree -- it goes in the u4x project.
wayland76++
wayland76 Well, Unicode is significantly more complex than ASCII, so naturally you need more words to describe it :)
pugs_svn r27660 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]: Unfudge more spectests for rakudo (RT 66300) 01:00
dalek kudo: 21066f1 | pmichaud++ | src/setting/Any- (3 files):
Fix boxing of strings in .flip, .join, .lc, .uc, and others.
missingthepoint_ pmichaud++ 01:01
(and i didn't mean to correct you before; that was me clarifying thoughts out loud) 01:02
pmichaud To the extent I took it as a correction, I took it as a very friendly and appropriate one. :-) 01:05
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missingthepoint_ well, that's ok i guess :) 01:06
pmichaud afk, resetting location to OSCON venue
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pugs_svn r27661 | bpetering++ | [irclog] updates to allow Javascript filtering by nick 02:30
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pugs_svn r27662 | lwall++ | [t/spec] remove :Trig 03:03
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hoelzro is both a little surprised and discouraged at how much of Rakudo seems to be written in PIR 03:30
s1n hoelzro: feel free to write a perl6 compiler in perl6 and compile it with rakudo 03:32
wayland76 hoelzro: I think the plan is to eventually write in in p6, but the mantra seems to be "make it work, then make it good" 03:33
hoelzro wayland76: that's what I've gathered from OSCON
which is completely logical
it's not going to stop me from trying to help with Rakudo, but it'll definitely slow me down =P
s1n i don't see why 03:34
hoelzro it's going to take me a little time to learn PIR, that's all 03:35
japhb Anyone know where I can buy the t-shirt with Camelia on it saying "I'm a second system. What's your problem?" ISTR it was on Cafe Press somewhere, but didn't find it.
pmichaud japhb: I'm about to redo those. 03:39
cafepress.com/rakudo
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pmichaud If you tell me how you'd like the shirt to be changed, I'll do that tonight/tomorrow 03:40
I know that folks want a camelia larger on the shirt, so I'll do that 03:41
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s1n i don't get the joke with that shirt... 03:42
missingthepoint_ s1n: heard of "second system syndrome"?
s1n googles...
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s1n seems apropos for perl6 03:44
japhb pmichaud: Is the printing "plasticy", such that having the design large and centered would be heavy and make your chest sweat? Or is it "dye-like", so that it adds little to the weight or breathability of the fabric?
pmichaud japhb: I don't know.
I haven't actually ordered one yet.
I think cafepress is non-plasticy
I'm also doing shirts with zazzle and spreadshirt 03:45
japhb pmichaud: If it was plasticy, I'd be less likely to buy anything in which the logo was much larger than the current "pocket-sized" look. But if it's non-plasticy, then having people be able to read it from 10 paces would be nice. :-)
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japhb I like white or light colored backgrounds for a full color logo ... and I can't wear black at all. Looks fricking awful on me. So I'd be happy if the shirt stayed basic white, or had that as an option at least. 03:47
pmichaud I'm hoping for lots of options
japhb It might be a good idea to add links to the schwag shopping on perl6-projects.org, as a box of its own. 03:48
BTW, the boxes on that page wrap badly if the browser window isn't several inches wider than you'd expect to need. 03:49
wayland76 Yeah, I get that too 03:50
japhb (And unfortunately, I'm lacking in tuits to fix it. The big parrot-dev thread today has used up a lot of my "flexible time".)
wayland76 800x600 makes it look bad :)
japhb If someone does decide to fix it, I'd move the download button up to being centered above the boxes, because the addition of the schwag box will make it a nice neat 3x2 block of boxes without having to "fill space" -- and it's better to have the download button be really obvious up top anyway. 03:52
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pmichaud okay, oscon is done for the night... time for me to head back to hotel and do lots of work tonight :-) 03:55
missingthepoint_ japhb: i'll see what i can do :) 03:56
japhb missingthepoint_: thank you! 03:57
pmichaud: good luck!
missingthepoint_ pmichaud: good luck :) 03:59
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tann_ rakudo: say [1,2].perl 04:37
p6eval rakudo 21066f: OUTPUT«[1, 2]␤» 04:38
tann_ rakudo: say eval('([1,2])').perl
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p6eval rakudo 21066f: OUTPUT«[1, 2]␤» 04:38
tann_ rakudo: say eval('([1,2],)').perl 04:39
p6eval rakudo 21066f: OUTPUT«[[1, 2]]␤»
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s1n rakudo: class AtestOfSay { ... }; my AtestOfSay $t; say $t; 05:04
p6eval rakudo 21066f: OUTPUT«Can't return outside a routine␤in Main (/tmp/o4Oopb52Xi:2)␤»
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s1n huh? 05:04
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TimToady s1n: I believe it's calling fail on the ..., and rakudo's fail tries to return Failure 05:37
but it should probably be defined in terms of leave instead 05:39
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jauaor :) 05:46
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missingthepoint_ TimToady: roles 06:25
TimToady: is there good example code around that uses them?
i.e. have you written any? :)
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wayland76 No, I think all the code is just playing with them. It's called ... role-playing! (Ow! Stop hitting me :) ) 06:27
missingthepoint_ wayland76: :ppp 06:28
wayland76 I've played with roles; is there something specific you're after?
There's also bits and pieces in S14. Have you looked there? 06:30
missingthepoint_ yep, kinda after something more substantial (working?)
wayland76 Ah, ok. In that case, I doubt I can help you 06:31
But ask masak or moritz_ when they come online
missingthepoint_ wayland76: ok
wayland76 also, ruoso might be worth an ask if he turns up 06:32
missingthepoint_ wayland76: cheers :)
moritz_ Web.pm doesn't seem to use lots of roles 06:33
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wayland76 Oh, ok. Well, maybe I'm wrong then :) 06:35
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Su-Shee good morning, future. :) 06:39
wayland76 Good afternoon, past :) 06:40
Su-Shee time zone puns before coffee make my head hurt. ;) 06:41
wayland76 Well, you started it :) 06:42
(and technically they're not puns, if I recall correctly) 06:43
Su-Shee I actually meant something inspiring like "bright future with perl 6" and such. :)) 06:44
because I woke up today and was thinking about perl 6 while sipping the first coffee. :) 06:45
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pmichaud If I drank coffee while thinking about Perl 6 I'd probably burn my tongue. 06:48
moritz_ removed the :Trig tag locally from rakudo and is now running a spectest
Su-Shee pmichaud: it's this silence-in-the-morning thinking while drinking coffee and staring at a blank, white wall. 06:51
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moritz_ missingthepoint_: your irclog patch makes all the normal messages aligned to the right, no idea why 06:51
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missingthepoint_ i have no idea either, minimal sleep 06:52
but this:
finanalyst missingthepoint_: if you are interested in roles per se, as opposed to roles in Rakudo, perhaps ask Ovid. From a thread on the p6l list it appears the BBC uses roles heavily, but using perl5 and Moose 06:53
missingthepoint_ ... should fix it
pugs_svn r27663 | bpetering++ | [irclog] fix stylesheet to align messages to left
missingthepoint_ finanalyst: hmm, that's interesting. i will keep in mind:) 06:54
moritz_ missingthepoint_: next problem: the inline javascript contains a '<' character, which makes it not well-formed xhtml
missingthepoint_ moritz_: ok... 06:55
moritz_ missingthepoint_: since I enable strict rendering where possible, you'd have to move all the JS to an external file
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missingthepoint_ ... but you already have one in reset_checkboxes() 06:55
in day.tmpl
BUT you're correct, would be good to put in external file, then it's cached = good 06:56
moritz_ missingthepoint_: the reset_checkboxes doesn't make it into the default output, there's an <TMPL_IF> around it 06:57
(and the spam deletion interface seems broken, due to not being used for quite some time) 06:58
missingthepoint_ ... and i completely missed that. note to self: better hacking through sleep
pugs_svn r27664 | bpetering++ | [irclog] move nick filtering JS to external file + bugs 07:00
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pugs_svn r27665 | moritz++ | [irclog] noscript warning when appropriate 07:18
dalek kudo: 7b81c05 | moritz++ | src/setting/Num.pm:
the :Trig tag is gone from spec, remove it.
pugs_svn r27666 | moritz++ | [irclog] remove proof-of-concept static HTML 07:23
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moritz_ (slightly off-topic): U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN has the note "this is a spacing character" when I view it in gucharmap - any idea what that actually means? 08:25
Su-Shee sounds bogus to me. 08:26
yes, there are several "spaces" in unicode (vertical ones for example) but the degree sign should be well established. 08:27
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wollmers moritz_: it isn't a spacing character. Better use demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/ubrows...=00B0#here for character properties or look into unicode.org 08:47
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jnthn morning, #perl6t 08:56
s/t//
DarkWolf84 hi there 08:57
moritz_ OH HAI
DarkWolf84 I have a problem building rakudo this day 08:58
jnthn DarkWolf84: OK...details? 08:59
DarkWolf84 it gives me an error during perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot
jnthn Ah 09:00
DarkWolf84 parrot snap don't have a Make.PL
I loooked there and there aren't other files exept directories 09:02
moritz_ then your svn checkout is incomplete
try rm -rf parrot
DarkWolf84 ok
thanks
moritz_ and then agaiin perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot
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DarkWolf84 that helped. Thanks moritz_ 09:10
it made error again 09:17
./md4.c:61:75: error: invalid suffix "PARROT_DYNEXT_EXPORT" on integer constant 09:18
make[1]: *** [md4.o] Error 1
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moritz_ DarkWolf84: could you please try this: cd parrot/; svn info|grep ^Rev 09:19
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moritz_ and tell me the output 09:19
DarkWolf84 ok
one moment
Revision: 40185 09:20
moritz_ that looks good
then it's some kind of parrot error I'm not familiar with 09:21
wayland76 moritz_: My theory is that it means that the degrees sign isn't an overstrike like Å or whatever 09:23
DarkWolf84 maybe it is because my computer is x86_64 09:24
moritz_ DarkWolf84: I build regularly on amd64, no problem there
wayland76: but then it would be a combining character, not a spacing character 09:25
wayland76 Nonono, the point is, it's *not* a combining character, ie. it has its own space
Probably bad use of terminology, but that's my theory
DarkWolf84 moritz_, I built it several times before and never had this problem
moritz_ wayland76: ah, makes some kind of shrewd sense 09:27
DarkWolf84: same here... maybe try on #parrot, or open a parrot bug for that
(doesn't seem to be related to Rakudo at all)
DarkWolf84 ok
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DarkWolf84 i c 09:27
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Su-Shee all "combining characters" have their own code point - like german umlaut-a. it can be the codepoint 00c4 OR A with two dots (0041 + 0308) 09:32
diaresis? diaeresis?
wollmers COMBINING DIAERESIS 09:34
Su-Shee yeah. "the two little dots above" :)
wayland76 Yes, I'm aware of that. The point was that a degrees symbol is "not" a combining character, and I suspect that gucharmap was trying to point that out
Su-Shee wayland76: that's possible, I have to admit that I use gucharmap mostly for "fast and easy finding a code point" 09:35
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wollmers It's a comment in the original code charts at unicode.org, gucharmap just copied this. 09:36
Su-Shee I wanted to buy the new CYK information processing anyway. ;)
wayland76 CYK = Chinese, etc? 09:38
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Su-Shee wayland76: yes. the huge oreilly bible. 09:39
wollmers Su-Shee: not all combinations of characters have their own code-point. E.g. LETTER A + DOT ABOVE + DOT BELOW does not have a songle code-point. But it should be a grapheme in Perl 6.
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Su-Shee wollmers: no, of course not - I think it's really just the established combined chars like the spanish n with tilde, german umlauts, french accent, turkish s with the little tail below and such... 09:41
(cjkv - oreilly.com/catalog/9780596514471/ - I was obviously thinking cymk :) 09:44
wollmers Su-Shee: yes, it's the policy of unicode.org to include all 'usual' combined characters as single code-points.
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wayland76 I was thinking of cmyk too; hence confusion :) 09:47
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Su-Shee oh, there's also a unicode book and a fonts & encoding book. I'll have to shop. 09:47
wayland76 I generally just use fileformat.info for my Unicode needs
Su-Shee well let me put it that way: I'm really glad, that pango/perl does all the unicode work for me. ;) 09:48
wayland76 Me too :)
wayland76 hopes that GTK+Perl6 happens soon :) 09:49
Su-Shee oh, and btw: all pango(gtk) apps support direct unicode code point input with ctrl-shift-u <codepoint> - meaning: works in firefox, in terminals based on gtk, in gvim ... 09:50
test: ctrl-shift-u 2665 ;) 09:51
wollmers The best resource about Unicode is the primary source: unicode.org;-) 10:00
wayland76 Yes, that Ctrl+Shift+U business is supposed to be a standard of some sort. 10:02
It doesn't work in Konversation, though :)
wollmers The only book I bought is: Peter T. Daniels, The Worlds Writing Systems. It's worth the EUR ~170 if you are interested in 'exotic' scripts. 10:03
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DarkWolf84 rakudo: say for 1..6; 10:40
p6eval rakudo 7b81c0: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 2, near "for 1..6;"␤Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Compiler;eval' pc 290617 (src/gen_actions.pir:24120) (src/gen_setting.pm:3340)␤»
DarkWolf84 bug
dakkar rakudo: .say for 1..6 10:41
p6eval rakudo 7b81c0: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤»
dakkar you have to invoke it on the topic
DarkWolf84 ok 10:42
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DarkWolf84 so i have to use the method not the command 10:42
why is that
dakkar I don't know enough to answer… 10:43
DarkWolf84 is it part of the spec or just a bug
moritz_ subs don't default to $_ anymore. 10:44
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moritz_ so rakudo behaves correctly 10:44
rakudo: my $x = 'zz1'; say ++$x; say $x
p6eval rakudo 7b81c0: OUTPUT«zz2␤zz2␤»
moritz_ rakudo: for 'zz1' -> $x is copy { say ++$x; say $x } 10:45
p6eval rakudo 7b81c0: OUTPUT«zz2␤zz2␤»
moritz_ rakudo: for 'zz1' -> $x is copy { say $x, ' ', ++$x; } 10:50
p6eval rakudo 7b81c0: OUTPUT«zz2 zz2␤»
moritz_ do we guarantuee order of evaluation?
it seems very counter-intuitive to me
rakudo: my $x = 3; say $x, ' ', ++$x; 10:51
p6eval rakudo 7b81c0: OUTPUT«4 4␤»
moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 3; say $x, ' ', $x++;
p6eval rakudo 7b81c0: OUTPUT«4 3␤»
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DarkWolf84 is it right to ++ strings? 10:51
moritz_ yes, it's magic.
DarkWolf84 oh i get it 10:52
it just increments the nubers in the string
moritz_ aye
and a -> b, b -> c, z -> aa etc 10:53
DarkWolf84 rakudo: my $str='abc123'; say ++$str; 10:57
p6eval rakudo 7b81c0: OUTPUT«abc124␤»
DarkWolf84 rakudo: my $str='abc'; say ++$str; 10:58
p6eval rakudo 7b81c0: OUTPUT«abd␤»
moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 3; say ~$x, ' ', $x++;
p6eval rakudo 7b81c0: OUTPUT«3 3␤»
DarkWolf84 it just ++ the last one
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DarkWolf84 rakudo makes many things than the last time I check 11:02
and don't freeze my computer during compile time :) 11:03
moritz_ aye; masak observed the same two days ago: use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39322
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masak aloha! 11:04
Su-Shee and there he is promptly :) 11:05
masak you rang?
moritz_ 13:03 <@moritz_> aye; masak observed the same two days ago: use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39322
Su-Shee no, moritz just mentioned your use.perl posting about how much has been completed in rakudo over the last month
moritz_ last 6 months, actually (iirc) 11:06
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Su-Shee sorry, s missing :) 11:06
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masak yes, it's a sort of creeping effect. 11:06
back in the fall of '08, I remember thinking "ah, feature X landed. cool!"
but during the spring, those thoughts haven't been as pronounced. 11:07
and yet a lot has happened in Rakudo-land.
moritz_ and it's not just features; it's a huge bunch of bug fixes too
masak indeed.
jnthn++ pmichaud++ 11:08
DarkWolf84 i remember when rakudo don't had io or oo 11:09
:)
s/oo/objects/ 11:10
masak a fun exercise: look at the spectest graph, and pinpoint the X coordinate when November development was started. then gasp. 11:11
moritz_ when did it start? 11:12
Su-Shee I find the most interesting part to see how "let's make a new programming language" goes and how to start without modules and any environment..
masak moritz_: hm, june '08.
moritz_ speaking of spectest graphs, I can't convince GD::Graph to use more of the horizontal space 11:14
masak we've run out of horizontal space? o_O
moritz_ ie I tell it to use a width of 800px, and it does, but the chart sits in the left corner and uses up about 400px or 500px
11:14 colomon left
DarkWolf84 O_O 11:14
moritz_ the script is in tools/progress-graph.pl if anybody wants to take a look 11:15
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pmichaud (GD::Graph) the reason seems to be that GD::Graph wants to give each data point an equal amount of space 12:02
but it's also constrained to use integral pixel widths 12:03
moritz_ hm
pmichaud so somewhere when we reached ~350 data points, GD::Graph switched from using two horiz pixels per day to one horiz pixel per day
and the graph shrunk in half
(I noticed the same phenomenon when GD::Graph went from 3 pixels per day to 2) 12:04
btw, good morning #perl6 :-)
moritz_ I can set correct_width => 0, but that makes many holes in the plot 12:05
so... the solution is not to use GD::Graph?
pmichaud I don't know the solution; I just have a theory behind the current problem. :-) 12:06
The real solution is to write a better GD::Graph in Perl 6. But I won't hold my breath for that one yet. :-) :-)
pmurias if you increase the graph size appropriatly the problem will go away?
pmichaud well, the graph width would start to get too horizontally large for many screens 12:07
perhaps.....
pmurias or we could scale the graph? 12:08
pmichaud perhaps the correct approach is to set the graph size based on the number of data points, and then resample it down to the size we want
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pmichaud although I fear that might make the labels look a bit fuzzy/unreadable 12:08
we'd want better label fonts
moritz_ aye
maybe it's easier to do it in gnuplot instead
it doesn't require such magic 12:09
(it requires different magic, though)
pmichaud I'd be fine with that -- I used gnuplot for quite a lot of graphing "back in the day"
we would regularly use gnuplot for thousands of data points
gnuplot also had the advantage of being able to go to other output media :-)
*has 12:10
moritz_ aye, it's fine piece of software
however the documentation isn't very appropriate if you don't know what commands to use for your specific needs
wayland76 pmichaud: Should I stay up later waiting for install stuff to land, or should I go to bed? :) 12:11
pmichaud wayland76: what I have so far landed 12:12
ins2 branch
wayland76 Ok, thanks
pmichaud it actually builds and runs for me
wayland76 Great :)
pmichaud I'm sure what I have at the moment is very linux-focused, though, so we need to tweak it for other platforms
(such as adding back the $(EXE) expansion where it's needed) 12:13
I like the phrase "reverse boiling frog effect" :-) 12:14
(from masak++'s post)
wayland76 What, does that mean that we're dead, and as the water cools, we come back to live? 12:15
Zombie frogs! :)
Should I feel free to hack away at ins2 and put a patch in RT?
pmichaud wayland76: yes.
wayland76: that would be awesome
wayland76 Ok, will see what I can do 12:16
What would you think of the idea of auto-generating things like BUILTINS_PIR? 12:18
pmichaud I think I'd prefer not to at the moment
it feels to me as though the cost of maintaining the generator outweighs the benefit 12:19
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wayland76 Ok, that makes sense 12:19
Also, if Parrot follows my suggestion about libraries to read MANIFEST files, we could probably use a MANIFEST for it at some point 12:20
pmichaud There are several of us who think that Parrot's MANIFEST is trying to solve orthogonal problems 12:21
wayland76 Which problems?
(and if you want to discuss it on #parrot, I'm there too)
pmichaud The original purpose of a MANIFEST is to identify the files that are to be present in a tarball
i.e., like a packing list ("did you get everything you ordered?") 12:22
wayland76 Ah, and now it's also being used for packaging locations, right?
pmichaud Using that to then drive the install process is really somewhat backwards
because, especially in the case of Rakudo, "the pieces I ordered" aren't "the things to be installed" 12:23
wayland76 What's the alternative?
moritz_ wayland76: create a build/ directory that can by simply copied to the install location
pmichaud What do other OS projects use? Does the manifest normally contain the install metadata?
moritz_ s/that/the contents of which/
pmichaud more precisely -- where does the install metadata normally go? 12:24
in most projects I've worked with, it ends up in the makefile
(in the sense that the makefile creates an image of the install somewhere for packagers to pick up)
moritz_ right, that's how I know it 12:25
wayland76 Hmm. I think I like the MANIFEST metadata solution better. But obviously I'm no big authority around here :)
pmichaud A real world analogy might be installing a kitchen sink
wayland76 I don't see the connection 12:26
pmichaud except that when you buy the kitchen sink, you don't get a kitchen sink, you get all of the parts and materials for first constructing the kitchen sink that is to be installed
and the tools
so when you order the kitchen sink, the manifest lists hammers and drills and porcelain and pipe benders and pipes and nuts and bolts and the like 12:27
you then measure the place where the sink is to be installed (Configure)
then use the tools to build the sink (make)
and only then do you install it (make install)
but the vast majority of pieces you used to build the sink don't get installed.
so the manifest isn't really appropriate for specifying the install process 12:28
wayland76 Hmm. Well, I can see what you're getting at.
In that case, I'm sorry I rewrote install_files.pl and install_dev_files.pl to eliminate duplicate code 12:29
As that was probably a waste of time
pmichaud oh, it may not be
in the case of parrot
parrot may still continue to use the manifest-as-install-metadata approach 12:30
wayland76 Ok, I see what you're saying
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wayland76 I guess my idea was to turn the Parrot tools into general-purpose ones that could also be used with Rakudo 12:30
pmichaud the other problem with using manifest to control the install process is that many of the things to be installed aren't actually in the manifest
in the case of Rakudo, the MANIFEST doesn't include "perl6.exe", for example 12:31
even though *that's* the thing to be installed
wayland76 It did in my previous patch :)
pmichaud oh. Then it's wrong, since "perl6.exe" is explicitly not delivered in the tarball package :-) 12:32
moritz_ isn't that what MANIFEST.generated is for (in parrot)?
pmichaud yes
that's what MANIFEST.generated does in Parrot.
wayland76 Hmm. What would you think of the idea of having a file called FILEDATA or something that can be used to generate the MANIFEST and other things
pmichaud I already have a manifest generator.
wayland76 Ok, I'll make a MANIFEST.generated 12:33
pmichaud It gets used whenever we create a tarball.
I explicitly do not like "MANIFEST.generated"
wayland76 Ok.
Hmm. Unfortunately, it was the way I got the Rakudo RPM working
pmichaud Rather than make Rakudo follow Parrot's lead here (given that Parrot's install has been misdesigned for so long), I'd prefer to do something more along the lines of what other projects use 12:34
wayland76 Hmm.
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pmichaud and then hope that Parrot adopts that. 12:34
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wayland76 Well, in that case, I may not be the right person for the job, since I don't know what other projects do :). But I'll see what I can do 12:34
pmichaud well, I don't know what other projects do either. 12:35
I do know that they don't do "MANIFEST.generated"
I also know that the names often confuse newcomers as to the files' purpose
"MANIFEST.generated" sounds like the manifest itself was automatically generated
moritz_ most projects use autoconf/automake
wayland76 Well, I'll probably put one in my patch, but you'll be able to ignote that part
moritz_ and I never grokked those
wayland76 Me either :) 12:36
pmichaud it's also important to note that the number of things Rakudo has to install is (at present) much smaller than what Parrot has to install
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pmichaud in the case of Rakudo, we'll install the .pbc, the fakecutable, and some *.pm files 12:37
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pmichaud oh, and some docs 12:37
pmurias is the fakecutable needed on linux systems?
pmichaud it's not "needed", but it's the common invocation 12:38
moritz_ technically it's not needed anywhere
pmurias what i mean could a shell script do it's job?
pmichaud at least until Parrot provides a good way to map command names to .pbc files
a shell script could work, yes.
but we'd still need something for the windows folks 12:39
and that's likely to be a fakecutable
so we might as well use a fakecutable for linux as well :-)
moritz_ anyway, the fakecutable now works, so there's not much point in reverting to other solutions 12:40
pmurias is the fakecutable any faster?
moritz_ don't think so
pmichaud should have a slightly faster load time... but probably not anything significant 12:41
ummmmm
spectest-progress.csv update: 416 files, 11343 passing, 651 failing
oops.
jnthn 651 failing?!
pmichaud it's all of the trig tests
moritz_ I fixed those. 12:42
jnthn Oh.
pmichaud S32-num/exp.rakudo aborted 40 test(s)
S32-trig/trig.rakudo aborted 611 test(s)
jnthn Isolated.
pmichaud moritz_: any chance it was broken at 05:00 UTC?
moritz_ TimToady removed the :Trig tag from spec and tests, I removed them from Rakudo a few hours later
pmichaud ah, I guess so.
moritz_ pmichaud: very good chance, yes
I pushed around 9:00 GMT+2
pmichaud I guess I don't want to use today's spectest numbers in my talk today, then :-) 12:43
moritz_ well, use a more up-to-date number then
pmichaud the graph is going to show 651 failing, though :-) 12:44
moritz_ well.
pmichaud oh, it probably won't matter, now that I think about it.
my talk only highlights the passing tests, it ignores the possibility of any failing ones :-) 12:45
so I'll just use the 11343 number. Or I'll fudge in the correct number in the talk.
it looks to me like we're 6 tests away from 12,000, though :-)
moritz_ we don't have to present us as perfect always-working monster hackers
pmichaud moritz_: right, that's why I don't mind the 651 failing in the graph 12:46
in fact, it might turn out nicely
failure is progress.
moritz_ it's an ilustration of how fast we fix things
you can say "two hours after we took this datapoint, someobody fixed rakudo" 12:47
pmichaud exactly 12:49
jnthn: if you're looking for something to work on today, tracking down the null pmc in the backtrace would be an excellent candidate :-)
it would be nice to have that fixed pre-release
also, I created a new "ins2" branch in github that uses an installed version of parrot to build and run rakudo -- having that tested on multiple platforms (expect fails) would be helpful 12:50
jnthn pmichaud: Will try and do so.
pmichaud no problem if you don't get to either of those; I'll squeeze them in before doing the release if that's the case
moritz_: would you be at all interested in doing the actual july release? 12:52
(since you've gone through it once already :-) 12:53
I'll still write up the announcement file and news and the like
masak (tracking down null pmc access in backtrace before release)++
pmichaud also, the july release still needs a name :-) 12:54
moritz_++ can pick a .pm group for the july release if he wants
masak moritz_: do you belong to a .pm group?
pmichaud given recent work, I'd also give KyleHa++ that option as well, if moritz declines 12:55
(to name the release)
masak aye.
KyleHa++ 12:56
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pmichaud okay, I'm disappearing for a few hours 13:03
13:03 unitxt joined
pmichaud last night I decided to refactor today's talk a fair bit and I want to finish that up 13:04
bbl
literal huh, I didn't know about Perl 5's "line directives", does Perl 6 have something like that?
moritz_ pmichaud, masak: I belong to a .pm group, but only seldomly attend, and they haven't done anything for Perl 6 yet 13:05
masak moritz_: I was in the same situation.
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masak moritz_: I wrote to the list and suggested we meet and talk some Perl 6. the meeting was well attended and well appreciated. 13:06
PerlJam literal: you mean like __LINE__, __PACKAGE__, and __FILE__ ?
moritz_ I think more like #line 1
literal PerlJam: nope
PerlJam: see the last paragraph of perlsyn(1)
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pmichaud moritz_: it doesn't have to be the .pm group you (sporadically) attend -- it can be any .pm group you think deserves mension 13:06
*mention
moritz_ well, I don't know any, which is why I choose Moon.pm for the fake releae :-) 13:07
but if somebody has a good suggestion, I can make the release.
pmichaud okay, you're interested in doing the release itself, then?
moritz_ yes.
PerlJam literal: ah. I haven't seen anything like that in the spec.
moritz_ literal: just write to the list and ask about it 13:08
masak what's it good for?
moritz_ generated code
pmichaud okay. by tonight I expect I'll have all of the announcement files and stuff up-to-date; I'll give you the "go ahead" and you can do the release at your convenience anytime after that (hopefully while it's still 23 Jul *somewhere* in the world :-)
moritz_ for example current backtraces include gen_builtins.pm, not src/setting/Foo.pm 13:09
pmichaud: great
PerlJam moritz++
pugs_svn r27667 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] a new implementation of lexical scope 13:10
masak moritz_: ah, I see now.
pugs_svn r27668 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] added exists to the new lexical scope, fix a bug in bind
pmurias phenny: help
phenny pmurias: Hi, I'm a bot. Say ".commands" to me in private for a list of my commands, or see inamidst.com/phenny/ for more general details. My owner is sbp.
pmichaud masak: oh, do you mind if I plagiarize some pieces of your NPW talk? 13:11
masak seems it would be slightly more straightforward just to go ahead and modify the $*FILE and $*LINE variables.
pmichaud: I don't mind at all.
pmichaud okay, great.
masak pmichaud: in fact, consider all my talks to have an implicit cc licence on them.
pmichaud masak: same here 13:12
moritz_ masak: $?FILE and $?LINE, but yes
masak oh, right. 13:13
PerlJam if Perl 6 is your run-time, use standard Perl 6 mechanisms :)
moritz_ temp $?FILE = 'foo.pm' maybe
pmurias can you temp a compile time variable? 13:14
masak moritz_: I like.
moritz_ "All $? variables are considered constants, and may not be modified after being compiled in." 13:15
masak dang.
pmurias masak: were there a gsoc meating yesterday? 13:16
moritz_ it's today, I hope
masak I really hope so too. :) 13:17
it is Wednesday, right?
pmurias yes
PerlJam moritz_, masak: See the section of S02 that mentions COMPILING
pmichaud currently rakudo combines all of the .pm files into a single .pm and compiles that to .pir 13:18
pmurias writes a blog entry to avoid the awkard question
pmichaud it might be better to compile each .pm file to .pir independently, and then combine them
that complicates the makefile a bit, but it might not be too bad
anyway, that should come _after_ the release if we do it :-) 13:19
moritz_ ORLY? :-)
pmichaud but if we compiled each .pm to .pir independently, the error messages would show up in the correct .pm
moritz_ aye
it would also be easier to parallelize with make -j 13:20
pmichaud yes
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pmichaud and currently compiling several smaller files is faster than one big one 13:20
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pmichaud so, going back to what wayland76++ said earlier, perhaps I would consider having SETTINGS_FILES and other things like that be auto-generated in the makefile. 13:21
cbk moritz_, could you have 2 of my perl6 programs put into the perl6/examples site? 13:22
pmichaud but doing that might also make rakudo's configure.pl less directly useful to other parrot languages that want to steal it for their own build environments
moritz_ cbk: I could, but you can also ask pmichaud for commit access to the perl6-examples repository 13:23
pmichaud cbk: what's your github id?
cbk I think it is cbk1090 13:24
no just cbk
lisppaste3 cbk pasted "untitled" at paste.lisp.org/display/84000 13:25
masak ooh, new Perl 6 code! :D
cbk that is my fake-exe maker
and I have that pet voter 2010 to upload
masak cbk: short review: the common abbreviation for 'parameter' is 'param'. 13:26
pmichaud "cbk" added to perl6/examples
masak cbk: otherwise, looks good.
cbk really nothing like any perl Master woud make claim to, but it's my code and I had fun making it
pmichaud er, perl6/perl6-examples
masak cbk++ 13:27
moritz_ cbk: now you can push github.com/perl6/perl6-examples/tree/master - have fun!
masak cbk: oh, and you could combine the declaration of $tempPIR with the .subst call -- ditto $tempPBC. but that's just a minor nit.
cbk cool. I will upload my pet vote program. 13:28
did i read you guys correctly, is the fake-exe in rakudo working now?
moritz_ it did not last I checked
but that's about 2 months ago 13:29
masak cbk: oh, and I have a feeling that a #! line cannot be line 2 in a program.
pmichaud it *can*, but it's a comment :-)
masak it's not syntactically wrong, but I don't think it works.
pmichaud: right.
cbk oh :(
masak well, it's a comment anyhow, but it's not an out-of-band one anymore.
pmichaud okay, I'm gone for my presentation refactor. I'll be back in a while 13:30
cbk soon :)
pmichaud (maybe longer than that if my refactor goes poorly)
masak pmichaud: good luck!
cbk pmichaud, good luck have fun
moritz_ longer than "in a while"? "in two whiles"? :-)
PerlJam pmichaud: yeah, remember to have fun! :)
jnthn If in doubt, just add more lolcats. 13:31
PerlJam pm: or just add a section wehere you can seque to #perl6 and have us take over the presentation for you ;>
moritz_ when I was a young kids and my parents said "soon", I used to wait a few seconds and then say "'soon' is now over"
PerlJam s/seque/segue/
weird braino there
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cbk moritz_, my kids do the same! 13:32
dalek kudo: 5901f2a | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
spectest-progress.csv update: 416 files, 11343 passing, 651 failing

   S32-num/exp.rakudo aborted 40 test(s)
   S32-trig/trig.rakudo aborted 611 test(s)		 13:37
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cbk moritz_, so where on github.com do i upload files? 13:42
moritz_ cbk: you clone the repository, copy the files into it, say 'git add $filename' and then 'git push'
cbk ok 13:43
masak moritz_: waitwait, the commit step?
add, commit, push.
cbk ? 13:44
masak cbk: it's not enough to just add files, you need to commit them as well.
cbk ok how
masak 'git commit' after you added the files.
cbk on the web site or git commit
ok
masak in a terminal window, in your local checkout. 13:45
cbk ok
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masak skims and likes www.shadowcat.co.uk/blog/matt-s-tro...g-no_plan/ 13:51
maybe we should have a done-testing in Test.pm in Rakudo, too.
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masak rakudo: role List {} 14:00
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«Method '!add_variant' not found for invocant of class ''␤»
masak rakudo: role Associative {} 14:01
jnthn rakudo: class List { }
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: ( no output )
rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«Re-declaration of type List at line 2, near ""␤Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Compiler;eval' pc 290617 (src/gen_actions.pir:24120) (src/gen_setting.pm:3340)␤»
jnthn ah,
makes some sense
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pmurias masak: done_testing as Test.pm uses underscores 14:02
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masak pmurias: fair enough. 14:02
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masak rakudo: class class {}; say class.new.perl 14:05
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«Unable to parse class definition at line 2, near ".new.perl"␤Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Compiler;eval' pc 290617 (src/gen_actions.pir:24120) (src/gen_setting.pm:3340)␤»
masak mohahaha.
masak submits an insidious rakudobug
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jnthn std: class class {}; 14:06
p6eval std 27668: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 36m␤»
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wayland76 wonders if a mohaha is a laugh with a moustache; maybe :-{D or something 14:07
masak wayland76: oh, it is.
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masak std: class class {}; say class.new.perl 14:12
p6eval std 27668: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 36m␤»
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PerlJam rakudo: class role {}; say role.new.perl; # this too 14:15
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«Unable to parse role definition at line 2, near ".new.perl;"␤Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Compiler;eval' pc 290617 (src/gen_actions.pir:24120) (src/gen_setting.pm:3340)␤»
PerlJam Same for package and module.
hmm
rakudo: class my {}; say my.new.perl;
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near ".new.perl;"␤Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Compiler;eval' pc 290617 (src/gen_actions.pir:24120) (src/gen_setting.pm:3340)␤»
PerlJam std: class my {}; say my.new.perl; 14:16
p6eval std 27668: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed my at /tmp/UFcdSutOov line 1:␤------> class my {}; say my.new.perl;␤ expecting any of:␤ declarator␤ multi_declarator␤ nofun␤ scoped declarator␤ whitespace␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
PerlJam std: class role {}; say role.new.perl;
p6eval std 27668: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 36m␤»
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[Coke] rakudo: say 'hi' 14:35
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«hi␤»
[Coke] msg p6eval rakudo: say 'hi
urg. 14:36
kalgecin hi
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masak rakudo: sub russian-mul($a, $b, $sum? is copy) { $sum += $b if $a % 2; return $a == 1 ?? $sum !! russian-mul(int($a/2), 2*$b, $sum) }; say russian-mul(18, 23) 14:38
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«414␤»
jnthn russian mul? ;-) 14:39
[Coke] seems like that should be golfable.
thedailywtf.com/Articles/Programmin...ation.aspx
masak [Coke]: oh, it is.
I just wrote a solution that reads well in masakese.
[Coke] something that redefines * would be nifty. =-) 14:40
masak I feel I've done my part. I'll leave the field open for others to experiment. 14:41
jnthn rakudo: my multi infix:<*>($a, $b) { 42 }; say 2 * 2;
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Undef'␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1845)␤»
jnthn wtf
rakudo: my multi infix:<*>($a, $b) { 42 };
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Undef'␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1845)␤»
masak jnthn: welcome back! :>
jnthn rakudo: multi infix:<*>($a, $b) { 42 };
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: ( no output )
jnthn rakudo: my multi foo($a, $b) { 42 };
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Undef'␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1845)␤»
TimToady define the Ж operator
jnthn rakudo: my multi sub foo($a, $b) { 42 }; 14:42
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p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Undef'␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1845)␤» 14:42
masak TimToady: :D
jnthn But we have tests for lexical multis, I thought... :-S
masak seems not.
PerlJam rakudo: our multi sub foo($a, $b) { 42 };
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: ( no output )
jnthn rakudo: { my multi sub foo($a, $b) { 42 } }
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: ( no output )
jnthn rakudo: { my multi sub foo($a, $b) { 42 }; say 2 * 2 } 14:43
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«4␤»
masak o_O
jnthn rakudo: { my multi sub infix:<*>($a, $b) { 42 }; say 2 * 2 }
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«4␤»
14:43 lucs joined
jnthn I think that last issue is known. 14:44
14:44 decasm joined
jnthn But the earlier one (doesn't work in the outermost scope) is new. 14:44
rakudo: state $x = 42; 14:45
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: ( no output )
masak rakudo: subset Positive of Num where { $^n > 0 }; my Positive $p; $p = -42
p6eval rakudo 5901f2: OUTPUT«Assignment type check failed; expected , but got Int␤Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Compiler;eval' pc 290617 (src/gen_actions.pir:24120) (src/gen_setting.pm:3340)␤»
masak I don't think I ever reported this one.
it's a "less than awesome error message" bug
masak reports it now
jnthn Looks like there's some awesomization to be done. 14:52
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masak "awesomization" :) 14:53
masak likes
"what do you do for a living?" -- "I'm in the awesomization business."
moritz_ wants to join that business :-) 14:55
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jnthn looks at the weird backtraces bug. 14:59
PerlJam moritz_: read Chad Fowler's book "The Passionate Programmer" that's kind of what it's about. 15:03
moritz_ PerlJam: my current programming book queue is full, sorry 15:04
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masak www.pragprog.com/titles/cfcar2/the-...programmer 15:06
moritz_ xrgtn.livejournal.com/32975.html btw (not really readable, and only partly well informed, but still interesting for us I think) 15:07
masak reading it, I think "well, he's certainly entitled to those opinions". 15:09
moritz_ right 15:10
masak his argument essentially boils down to "why invent new stuff?"
moritz_ he's surely also entitled to use brown font on black background.
masak :) 15:11
the font looks gray here, though.
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[Coke] I certainly do hope perl6 ends up with a good marketing department, as most of the perl5 programmers I know have sworn it off, many for similar reasons as that poster. 15:12
moritz_ we hired masak++ for that :-)
masak bows 15:13
mdxi his nick is even less pronouncable than mine!
masak I dispute that.
I have vowels in all the right places.
jnthn Oh, vowels are so overrated. 15:14
masak oh, you meant xrgtn.
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mdxi not you. ... yes, him :) 15:14
masak wll, thn gr. :)
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jnthn youch. 15:17
01 - hello world: 0.921875
That was under 0.7 I'm sure not so long ago.
moritz_ that's... unfortunate. 15:18
jnthn should put his shiny new server (once he's migrated his stuff to it) to good use and run these regularly.
wow, these numbers are awful... :-S
jnthn investigates the thingy he realized while on vacation that may have contributed some slow-down. 15:19
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moritz_ why are "aweful" and "aweful" linguistically so similar, and still mean something totally opposite? 15:20
erm, aweful and awesome
15:20 donaldh joined
moritz_ if it were "aweless" I'd understand it :-) 15:20
dakkar moritz_: s/aweful/awful/ 15:21
[Coke] awful, not ....right.
moritz_ stll :/
hudnix Aweful didn't used to mean what people think it means.
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masak seems they both stem from 'awe', yes. initially, 'aw(e)ful' was just an intensifier. 15:24
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masak interesting, I thought generally the trend was in the other direction, from a negative word to a general intensifier. 15:24
skids Well, then we'd have a whole lot of general intensifiers and no useful connotations. :-) 15:25
masak skids: well, we do get brand new negative words now and then, too :) 15:26
it's not like there's a steady state in a language's evolution.
mdxi "sanction" means, popularly, "to endorse" and "to forbid" (but this is because it's was a loan word in Middle English, from French, from Latin, meaning "to ratify"). English is highly succeptible to usage-creep, and its users tend not to think very hard about what words are *defined* to mean. so don't try to think hard about it :) 15:27
skids masak: you mean, like "bush"? :-) 15:28
masak skids: actually, I think she's a decent singer. don't see what you have against her. :P
hudnix heh. I'm listening to her right now :)
masak skids: see? :) 15:29
dalek kudo: e506d36 | jnthn++ | perl6.pir:
Make sure we pass along the correct exit code if we have an exit exception.
kudo: 23e8f09 | jnthn++ | perl6.pir:
Add a null check to avoid exceptions in the backtrace printing; need this for the release, but Parrot probably should not be putting them there in the first place, so investigate that too.
masak mdxi: that explains why I've never grokked that word...
sbp cleave is another autoantonym
(means the opposite of itself) 15:30
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masak en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_auto-...in_English 15:30
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jnthn "boned" has a slang meaning as a verb too. :-) 15:32
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jnthn sheesh, I'm a native speaker and some words on this list I've not even heard before. 15:33
masak jnthn: might be because your only a native speaker of one of the many Englishes out there.
[Coke] sinople is not a word. =-)
masak s/your/you're/
mdxi basically, English will pick up words from any language it happens to rub up against in a dark alley, which leads to a lot of confusion later on :) 15:34
jnthn masak: True.
masak mdxi: I like that. English is like a bazaar, a running experiment. 15:35
PerlJam just. like. perl.
moritz_ perl has a test suite, English not. 15:36
PerlJam moritz_: sure it does! What do you think dictionaries are? :) 15:37
It's just that most of the populace ignore the dictionary and make up their own usages as they see fit.
Thus verbing of nouns and the like.
skids
.oO(Because we like to complain so much, and are generally angry and at a loss for words, lots of harmless words get a bad name)
moritz_ PerlJam: dictionaries are snapshots (or releases), not test suites 15:38
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PerlJam moritz_: since english has no "runtime" except for the brains of all those who speak it, a dictionary serves as a test suite to gauge usage. 15:39
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[Coke] English is a language that .runs down other languages in dark alleys and goes through their pocket for spare words,. (www.modern-worker.com/start-your-da...stretches) 15:39
PerlJam [Coke]++
mdxi then it takes the words home and fiddles with them until they feel more comfortable and look the way it likes 15:40
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skids I must be a complete freak. I have trouble because I *don't* like routines. I find it very hard to keep up a daily habit of anything. 15:45
(wrt Coke's URL) 15:46
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[Coke] I was merely looking for someplace that had that quote I remembered, was all. 15:48
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moritz_ skids: your code will look very messy very soon if you don't use routines :-) 15:48
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jnthn Ah, that's one performance regression fixed... 15:50
[Coke] jnthn: something in parrot, I hope. =-)
Tene So, is rakudo supposed to be broken ATM?
I still can't build it.
jnthn [Coke]: No, in Rakudo I'm afraid.
moritz_ Tene: it shouldn't be broken the the 1.4 release
[Coke] jnthn: *shake fist in mock anger* 15:51
Tene moritz_: ever since the release, I've been updating parrot and trying to rebuild rakudo.
moritz_ Tene: ah well, rakudo won't be adopted before its release 15:52
(which is due tomorrow)
then you're free to remove the things from Rakudo that were deprecated and removed from Parrot
[Coke] hurm. feather has parrot 1.4.0-devel, not 1.4.0 ? 15:53
it's perljam. when building rakudo with the system perl on feather, I see: 15:54
/usr/bin/perl5.10.0 /home/duff/git/rakudo/parrot/tools/build/pmc2c.pl --c perl6s
... that looks vad.
er, bad.
is rakudo intended to be buildable against an installed bird atm?
moritz_ no. 15:55
[Coke] WBNI if it complained if you tried to do so. 15:56
PerlJam [Coke]: earlier pmichaud mentioned that there's a branch called in2 on github that supposedly works against an installed parrot
moritz_ there's a branch which might or might not work for you
'ins2' iirc
PerlJam s/in2/ins2/
[Coke] I'm just trying the default.
dalek kudo: 254b3a5 | jnthn++ | src/pmc/perl6multisub.pmc:
When we have a named slurpy param, we don't need to do a bindability check to see if there's matching named params since it accepts 'em all anyway. This lets us cache many multi-method dispatches again now methods get their *%_, winning back some performance.
 15:57
PerlJam [Coke]: and yeah, I installed parrot on feather to try out ins2
(I installed whatever version of parrot that rakudo said it needed)
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[Coke] if you got it from svn, that's why it says devel. 16:05
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Tene [Coke]: I've been building rakudo from an installed parrot (with the build dir still in place) for months. 16:06
but it stopped working right around the time of the 1.4 release..
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[Coke] would it be nice if rakudo used smolder? 16:10
PerlJam [Coke]: has parrot gotten it's installation problems worked out?
[Coke] PerlJam: don't think so. 16:11
jnthn: your comment in 254b3a5a80e98f1daa72e596b9e6662d6259e9e6 doesn't match the logic. 16:13
jnthn [Coke]: How so? 16:14
[Coke] ... in the way that I'm insane.
jnthn The condition went from checking if it's named to checking if it's named and not slurpy. 16:15
[Coke] I was mis_reading PMC_IS_NULL
jnthn Ah. :-)
[Coke] shame we don't have PMC_NOT_NULL.
jnthn Thanks for reviewing the commit though. :-)
Well, it'd be same number of chars, but yeah, clearer. 16:16
[Coke] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6 seems to have some broken-in-rakudo-current examples. 16:19
moritz_ rakudo: class A is rw { has $.b, $.c } 16:21
p6eval rakudo 23e8f0: OUTPUT«Lexical 'self' not found␤»
moritz_ rakudo: class A is rw { has $.b }; my $y = A.new; $y.b = 3;
p6eval rakudo 23e8f0: ( no output )
jnthn rakudo: class A { has $.b, $.c }
p6eval rakudo 23e8f0: OUTPUT«Lexical 'self' not found␤»
jnthn rakudo: class A { has ($.b, $.c) } 16:22
p6eval rakudo 23e8f0: ( no output )
jnthn Think parens are required.
moritz_ 'has' binds tigther than ,
right
jnthn The error is probably right-ish.
PerlJam It could be clearer.
std: class A { has $.b, $.c } 16:23
p6eval std 27668: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
jnthn It's how to know to make it clearer in that case, though.
PerlJam The parse could probably catch it.
oh, I guess not. 16:24
moritz_ $.c is just a method call.
jnthn Right, it's the same as $(self.c) 16:25
PerlJam has $.a, $.b; has the same problems as my $a, $b; It could be caught in the same way. 16:28
std: my $a, $b;
p6eval std 27668: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $b is not predeclared at /tmp/OpH8pYamc2 line 1:␤------> my $a, $b;␤ok 00:02 38m␤»
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PerlJam tewk: I don't think I've seen you online in a while. 16:39
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tewk PerlJam: real life and school have taken their toll 16:40
I'm also having trouble building rakudo 16:41
perl6_ops.c:32:28: error: pmc/pmc_object.h: No such file or directory
perl6_ops.c:45:1: warning: "/*" within comment
looks like tools/build/ops2c.pl has changed 16:42
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moritz_ tewk: are you using the release of parrot? 16:42
rakudo is know not to compile against parrot trunk, and won't until after the release
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moritz_ jnthn++'s exit status patch caused two new tests failures, t/spec/S05-match/capturing-contexts.rakudo and t/spec/S10-packages/use-with-class.rakudo (both exit with 1) 17:02
bah, seems like fudge adds an exit(1)
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jnthn Oh, hmm 17:03
moritz_ hm 17:04
jnthn I think my patch makes Rakudo more correct...
moritz_ deletiing the fudge files and re-generating them seems to work
jnthn: sure thing, that's very much appreciated
sorry for the fuzz - seemed to be wrongly generated .rakudo files lying around somehow 17:05
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jnthn Ah, OK 17:06
ENEEDFRESHFUDGE
mmm...tasty fresh fudge
jnthn once lived ~10 mins walk to a very good fudge shop 17:07
moritz_ fuzzy fudging ;-)
[Coke] jnthn: yah, but did they deliver?
</american>
jnthn [Coke]: Oooh, interesting point. Akshually, I think they did... 17:08
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tewk moritz_: my fault, works now 17:20
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[Coke] is amazed at the speed difference between trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/719#comment:1 in tcl on parrot and rakudo. 17:44
perhaps ashamed is a better word. =-)
jnthn [Coke]: What kind of difference are you seeing? 17:45
Order of magnitude?
[Coke] when the tcl version finishes in another 20m, I can tell you?
moritz_ what does 'lappend x 1435753299' do? 17:46
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jnthn wow! 17:46
What does Rakudo manage it in?
[Coke] moritz_: append the value 143... to the end of the list x. 17:47
it's like push.
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jnthn rakudo: role A { }; say A[]; say "lived"; 17:47
p6eval rakudo 254b3a: OUTPUT«␤lived␤» 17:48
moritz_ tries in Rakudo 17:49
will take some minutes, too 17:52
[Coke] perl5: 0.6s, tclsh8.5: 2.3s, rakudo: 7m50s, partcl: 25m34s , in a very messy test. 17:58
perl5.10, that is.
jnthn Ouch.
moritz_ rakudo: say (7*60+50) / 0.6 17:59
p6eval rakudo 254b3a: OUTPUT«783.333333333333␤»
[Coke] that's 783 times slower for rakudo, 1513 times slower for partcl
(hey. each tcl is about 3 and a bit times slower than its perl counterpart. I guess that's alright, then. =-) 18:00
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jnthn -> store, bbiab 18:04
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moritz_ [Coke]: did you measure that with an optimized parrot? 18:07
[Coke] moritz_: no 18:10
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moritz_ seems to take a lot longer here (also unoptimized) 18:10
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[Coke] it's not fast, considering it's not doing much. =-) 18:11
moritz_ on Rakudo, that is
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M_o_C Does it make sense to ask wether either rakudo or parrot is the cause for the speed (or the lack thereof) problem? 18:33
moritz_ it makes sense 18:34
and for a big part it's parrot
M_o_C Ok
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M_o_C I think it's sort of strange, that they released 1.x (I think of 1.x releases as "Ready for use in production"-releases, though I don't know wether this is also the case with parrot) without a most awesome, extensible optimization engine. Especially if you consider that it should be possible for languages with completely different paradigms to run on it. 18:40
Of course this would have delayed 1.x release probably a few years, but still... ;)
moritz_ well, it's important to show that you've done something. The 1.0 release was such a step 18:41
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[particle]1 M_o_C: parrot 2.0 (jan '10) is 'ready for production' 18:42
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DarkWolf84 rakudo: my Int $a.HOW.say 18:43
p6eval rakudo 254b3a: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near ".HOW.say"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3340)␤»
M_o_C [particle]1: Ah, ok.
DarkWolf84 rakudo: my Int $a=10; $a.HOW.say 18:44
p6eval rakudo 254b3a: OUTPUT«Method 'say' not found for invocant of class 'P6metaclass'␤»
DarkWolf84 why this don't work
jnthn I'm not sure if it should or not.
moritz_ the because P6metaclass doesn't (yet) inherit from Object
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jnthn moritz_: I'm not sure whether the "yet" belongs in there, tbh. 18:45
DarkWolf84 HOW method should give all the methods
jnthn ?
moritz_ DarkWolf84: no, the meta class
jnthn If you want the methods you call .methods on the HOW
DarkWolf84 ok
jnthn rakudo: class A { method a { }; method b { } }; A.^methods(:local)>>.say 18:46
DarkWolf84 many things have changed
p6eval rakudo 254b3a: OUTPUT«b␤a␤»
18:46 kane___ left
DarkWolf84 the readline method don't work anymore on IO object 18:47
moritz_ you can get a line with .get
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moritz_ rakudo: say $*IN.get 18:47
p6eval rakudo 254b3a: OUTPUT«Land der Berge, Land am Strome,␤»
[particle]1 M_o_C: see groups.google.com/group/parrot-dev/...869bd1612b 18:48
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japhb Coke: Have you done a straight PIR version of that TT 719 code? 18:49
I'm curious how it compares
18:49 justatheory left
M_o_C [particle]1: Thanks 18:49
japhb slowly getting more likely to restart the parrot benchmarking effort
DarkWolf84 thanks again
japhb
.oO( Now where am I going to find a box that I know will be dead idle for a sufficient block of time each day ...? )
 18:50
arnsholt Home box while at work? =)
[Coke] japhb: generating straight PIR from partcl is non-trivial.
japhb arnsholt: I work from home much of the week. 18:51
[Coke] as partcl is more of a "compile and run as you go" kind of language.
arnsholt japhb: Heh. Right =)
japhb [Coke]: I meant, hand-writing equivalent (colloquial) PIR.
arnsholt So much for that then
[Coke] japhb: no.
shorten that
japhb considers "Home box 2 am to 6 am" but I don't know if that will be enough of a time block. 18:52
DarkWolf84 I'd like to have programing perl 6 :) 18:56
moritz_ write it
[Coke] japhb: can't hoit to try.
pugs_svn r27669 | lwall++ | [STD] rebuild GLOBAL on new parse
r27669 | lwall++ | [STD] make error messages more awesome wrt EOF and BOL/EOL
[Coke] DarkWolf84: I believe that stonehenge is working on that in their spare time.
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[Coke] would prefer "Programming Parrot". 18:57
PerlJam wonders what "stonehenge is working on it" really means.
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PerlJam Isn't Randal still scrounging for work? 18:57
moritz_ PerlJam: on what?
PerlJam "Programming Perl 6" 18:58
(though I'd expect that Stonehenge would more likely be working on "Learning Perl 6"
)
moritz_ it would be nice if somebody who's acctually working on perl 6 wrote that book 18:59
TimToady PP6 will be done with TheDamian
moritz_ but they are all busy, it seems
japhb TimToady: already in progress?
moritz_ after he finishes his Pod draft? 19:00
TimToady we plan to finish somewhere close to the Winter Solstice :)
well, my Winter, Damian's Summer...
Su-Shee puts the mouse in clicking-and-buying-book position.. 19:01
19:02 masak joined
japhb Another item for the perl6-projects schwag box, when it appears ... 19:02
masak #p6s commences. interested people, feel free to join. 19:03
Su-Shee p6s ?
PerlJam TimToady: of which year?
masak Su-Shee: #perl6-soc
Su-Shee masak: ah.
TimToady the same yeasr
japhb [Coke]: Are your variations on TT #719 in a repo somewhere?
TimToady *year
masak Su-Shee: for GSoC students.
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Su-Shee masak: wasn't tene yours? :) 19:04
PerlJam TimToady: you are a cunning adversary! :)
masak Su-Shee: no, I'm mentoring literal.
Tene I'm masak's what?
Su-Shee Tene: I thought you were masask GSoC student.
masak Su-Shee: maybe you're thinking of the Web.pm grant, in which both Tene and I are crewmembers.
Su-Shee masak: aah, yes. 19:05
sorry.
masak np.
even I have trouble keeping all the projects straight sometimes.
Tene No, I haven't participated in GSoC.
jnthn joins #perl6-soc out of curiosity
PerlJam Su-Shee: maybe you're thinking of tewk? 19:06
Su-Shee PerlJam: do I? I have no idea. :)
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[Coke] nopaste? 19:14
moritz_ see /topic 19:15
[Coke] danke. 19:16
(turns out the other guy is in #parrot anyway. =-)
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hudnix_ rakudo: class A{}; say A.HOW().perl 19:22
p6eval rakudo 254b3a: OUTPUT«Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'P6metaclass'␤»
[Coke] rakudo: class A{}; say A.HOW().PARROT 19:23
p6eval rakudo 254b3a: OUTPUT«Method 'PARROT' not found for invocant of class 'P6metaclass'␤»
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PerlJam hudnix_: class A {}; say A^.perl; 19:23
masak hudnix_, [Coke]: I'd say those are reportable bugs.
hudnix_ rakudo: class A {}; say A^.perl 19:24
p6eval rakudo 254b3a: OUTPUT«A()undef␤»
masak PerlJam: not the same, I think. 19:25
o_O
PerlJam IIRC, $foo^.meth is a short-hand for $foo.HOW($foo).meth
moritz_ the other way round
$foo.HOW.meth($foo)
PerlJam looks like I don't recall correctly :) 19:26
hudnix_ S12 says the syntax should be ^A.perl, but that doesn't work either
rakudo: class A {}; say ^A.perl 19:27
p6eval rakudo 254b3a: OUTPUT«␤»
19:27 kane___ left
masak checks 19:27
moritz_: right, that's what I thought I remembered.
hudnix_ at least that doesn't error 19:28
hudnix_ reports bug
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PerlJam pmurias: see the question I asked on #p6s ;) 19:31
pmurias the simplest way is:
mildew: say "hi" 19:32
p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«hi␤»
PerlJam yeah, but say I have a copy of the pugs repo on disk. Where do I look; what do I do to make it work? 19:33
pmurias PerlJam: the more complex way (but it helps find build bugs) is make in v6/re-smop and make in v6/re-mildew
the perl mildew perl6-file.p6 in re-mildew
PerlJam ah, looks like I need to update my parsec 19:34
pmurias www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....pendencies might be of some help (it could use some updating) 19:38
PerlJam: what os do you use?
PerlJam ubuntu
dalek kudo: bd1e7cb | moritz++ | docs/announce/2009-07:
[release] feature list for the announcement text
 19:40
moritz_ feel free to review for spelling, grammar and correctness 19:41
PerlJam: would you add your regex tutorial to a repository somewhere?
pmurias PerlJam: you should be able to compile smop then
PerlJam moritz_: perl6-examples maybe? 19:42
japhb moritz_: "this is never now never considered" 19:43
masak moritz_: 'never now never' on lines 38/39.
:)
moritz_ ;-)
masak also, line 40: s/message/messages/
pmurias moritz_: do we need &cmp_ok in Test.pm?
masak and there's a space before the comma on line 39.
japhb And line 39 has a space before a comma 19:44
damn
moritz_ pmurias: don't think so
masak hah!
moritz_ pmurias: it's used in 6 files or so
pmurias moritz_: that's why i asked 19:45
moritz_ maybe we'll rename it to OK() at one point, or so 19:46
masak moritz_: you might be busy doing the build, but what do you think of mst's thoughts about 'no plan' in www.shadowcat.co.uk/blog/matt-s-tro...g-no_plan/ ?
moritz_ masak: I'm not doing the build right now, release is tomorrow 19:47
masak moritz_: if he has a point, and I think he does, maybe that's something we should incorporate into Test.pm...
goodie.
in that case, I'd like to hear what you think. :)
moritz_ masak: for quite many tests that's a really nice idea
(read it earlier today already)
pmurias moritz_: i'm not sure OK &infix:<==>,$foo,$bar is any better then ok $foo == $bar
moritz_ pmurias: it allows better diagnostics 19:48
masak it does look awful.
moritz_ pmurias: and you can write it OK $foo, &[==], $bar, $msg
pmurias the Test.pm can use the AST
moritz_ pmurias: that's some fairly advanced macro munging, no?
[Coke] having been working with tcl for a while, I do prefer named tests. (even if those names are semi-numeric) 19:49
moritz_ we also want to keep the tests simple
tann_ rakudo: say eval("(a,b)").perl; say eval("(a,b)").WHAT;
p6eval rakudo bd1e7c: OUTPUT«undef␤Nil()␤»
pmurias moritz_: yes, but some of the current Test.pm ignore the diagnostics
moritz_ masak: coming back to the plan, I'd like 'plan *; tests...; plan :done;' or something along these lines
pmurias moritz_: like ext/Test 19:50
moritz_ pmurias: yes, but it's fairly easy to change
masak moritz_: that's a nice compromise.
moritz_: then all people who agree with mst can do it like that.
moritz_ or maybe planning * might be the default
masak moritz_: even better.
moritz_ pmurias: I thought that emitted useful diagnostics, but I might be wrong of course
pugs: use Test; plan 1; is 'a', 'b', 'foo' 19:51
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«pugs: *** Unsafe function 'use' called under safe mode␤ at /tmp/GbprwapVw3 line 1, column 1␤»
pmurias lol
tann_ pugs: say eval("(a,b)").perl; say eval("(a,b)").WHAT
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«undef␤Scalar␤»
masak tann_: a and b are both undefined. 19:52
tann_ masak: yes
pmurias moritz_: and i think that making the undeveloped implementations not have diagnostics for some rare cases is not a big drawback
masak tann_: glad we agree.
moritz_ pmurias: I'm not sure. And might I remind you that no implementation so far acutally implements macros sufficiently well? 19:53
dalek kudo: e898146 | moritz++ | docs/announce/2009-07:
[release] typos spotted by masak++ and japhb++
tann_ masak: rakudo console just acts strangely on my box...hence, just wanted to see irc rakudo doing the same thing :)
moritz_ pmurias: for sake of convience many tests look like 'ok $a == $b, $msg' right now, but I'm not happy with it
masak tann_: it's not just you. the Rakudo REPL is very much less than awesome.
19:54 Eevee joined
[Coke] it might be nice if there was a standard "your code seems incomplete" exception type. (partcl's REPL allows multi-line inputs.) 19:54
(then we could share the same repl code.) 19:55
masak moritz_: re different test syntax, I see the desirability of improvements, but all the suggestions I've seen are teh blech. either we're in a sweet spot wrt testing, or we're still waiting for the Big Idea to manifest itself.
moritz_ masak: agreed
masak very likely both. 19:56
pmurias moritz_: i get mildew to print diangostics for ok $foo op $bar, will you agree to forget about &OK?
s/i/if i
M_o_C "Rakudo Perl #19 "TODO"" <-- don't you forget to change this before release :D
moritz_ [Coke]: I don't think that's easy with Perl 6 syntax; you'd basically have to safe the whole parser state once you hit the end of the string...
[Coke]: might be easy with continuations, might be hard as hell 19:57
M_o_C: I don't know the code name yet, so I can't fill it in
if anybody knows a perl mongers group that has done nice things for Perl 6 or Rakudo, please speak up
M_o_C Already thought so, I only meant that it would be sort of funny if it goes life as "TODO"
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masak TODO.pm 19:58
moritz_ I can acknowledge that by naming it after them
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M_o_C s/life/live/ 19:58
masak surely there must be at least one Perl Mongers group out there that has done something p6-y, and that hasn't had a release named after itself yet. 19:59
PerlJam masak: just go alphabetical. 20:00
moritz_ sure, there are 5 listed in the release manager guide, but it doesn't include the reasons
so I don't know anthing about them, and can't pick one 20:01
tann_ moritz_: should these two be equivalent? ().list and eval('(,)') ? rakudo doesn't seem to think so
rakudo: say eval('(,)').WHAT; say ().list.WHAT 20:02
moritz_ tann_: I think so, but I'm not sure
japhb The primary thing my PM does for Perl 6 is listen to me babble about it every month.
p6eval rakudo bd1e7c: OUTPUT«Nil()␤List()␤»
pmurias wonders how a python user group if they got a rakudo release named after them...
20:02 nbrown left
moritz_ lol 20:02
pmurias s/if/would react if/ 20:03
M_o_C www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=....tnG=Search <-- That's what google says...
cbk moritz_, #perl6 is kinda like a Perl Mongers group. (we just need some used book raffles)
M_o_C cbk: they could save that name for the "final" release (I know that "final" is vague in terms of perl 6...) 20:04
moritz_ ah well, I have a whole day before deciding
and pmichaud++ promised to give me some clues
masak kinda liked Moon.pm 20:05
[Coke] japhb: better them than us!
PerlJam masak: not "New Moon"? no vampires or wolves?
[Coke] vampires don't sparkle. :P 20:06
moritz_ masak: me too ;-)
masak PerlJam: I feel there's a reference I'm missing there... :)
Su-Shee vampires glamour, I learned in true bloog. ;)
blood.
PerlJam masak: oh, the movies/books of the Twilight series are all the rage. The second book is called "New Moon" (I think) 20:07
[Coke] I do recommend _Host_ by the same author, though.
cbk masak, New Moon is part 2 to the twilight movie
masak ah.
cbk PerlJam, yes sadly my wife has ALL the books
PerlJam cbk: mine too :) 20:08
Su-Shee well, that will lead to a great rakudo success with 13 year old girls.
PerlJam and 30-something wives of techies?
moritz_ butterflies, vampires... o tempora o mores
cbk :)
Su-Shee which we already tried to catch with camelia anyway..
[Coke] they'll be in the workforce by the time 1.0 ships, so that's awesome.
Su-Shee moritz_: surely you do know "Buffy"? ;) 20:09
moritz_ Su-Shee: my girlfriend watched that a few times, yes
jnthn ooh, wtf, I accidentally seem to have made 8 extra tests pass?
[Coke] jnthn: you bastard!
moritz_ jnthn: did you remove a Null PMC Access?
masak jnthn: shit happens.
jnthn No
,4,7] 20:10
[#perl6]
huh
moritz_ jnthn: dies_ok and eval_dies_ok report failure on Null PMC Access now, so that would have explained it
masak jnthn: we're losing you. we don't understand what you're saying. :)
jnthn moritz_: Eh, spot on, they *were* marked as giving null PMC access. :-) 20:11
pugs_svn r27670 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] added &prefix:<?>
r27670 | pmurias++ | added &cmp_ok to lib/Test.pm
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pugs_svn r27671 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] .WHAT is now generally accepted as returning parens on the end; should do that for enum names too for consistency. 20:18
dalek kudo: fd6cb4a | jnthn++ | src/classes/Signature.pir:
When .perl'ing a Signature, put the : there for named parameters.
 20:19
kudo: 4ee9623 | jnthn++ | src/p (3 files):
First cut implementation of .^roles for introspecting what roles a class does, plus some other corrections to various bits of role introspection.
kudo: d8505f8 | jnthn++ | :
Merge branch 'master' of [email@hidden.address]
pugs_svn r27672 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Unfudge eight tests that Rakudo now passes in parameterized-type.t. 20:20
masak rakudo: role A {}; class B does A {}; say B.new.^roles.perl
p6eval rakudo bd1e7c: OUTPUT«Method 'roles' not found for invocant of class 'P6metaclass'␤»
jnthn ETOOOLD
masak waits patiently
moritz_ EMASAKTOOFAST 20:21
masak zoom! peowpeowpeow!
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mikehh latest rakudo does not build on r40217 - builkds on r40185 20:34
Tene masak: how far did you end up getting in your MVC frameworks review? 20:35
masak Tene: I'm still doing the review. have done Rails and Catalyst so far. 20:36
Tene Ah.
masak haven't delved deep into either, but I bought the Cat e-book.
Tene The new one?
masak yup.
I'm determined to learn about MVC frameworks.
Tene I still need to get that one.
Su-Shee mvced herself into a corner two days ago when I realized that mvc also means to mvc javascript.
Tene Jifty has been one of my major motivations. They have a lot of nice stuff going on, for some kinds of web apps.
masak I'm also interested in Merb, even though AIUI it was swallowed up by Rails. 20:37
literal AIUI?
masak literal: as I understand it
literal ok
masak literal: that might be an acronym I just made up. :/ sorry.
jnthn Note: my commit d8505f8 needs you to re-Configure.
Tene masak: I've seen it in^H^Hmany other times. 20:38
masak Tene: from what I've heard about Jifty, it looks really cool.
Tene: I'm prepared to be much inspired by it.
dalek kudo: 03aa56f | jnthn++ | (3 files):
Add an Attribute class that will be the descriptor for an attribute. For now it only has a .name, will add more later. Also implement first cut of .^attributes.
Tene Documentation is negligible and scattered... I mostly learned it by reading some talks and examples. 20:39
That's where I got inspiration for Tags.pm from, though.
jnthn rakudo: role A {}; class B does A {}; say "masak: " ~ B.new.^roles.perl
Tene Jifty's Template::Declare.
p6eval rakudo d8505f: OUTPUT«masak: [A[]]␤»
masak jnthn++
jnthn (Note the [] after A means "empty set of type params") 20:40
masak Tene: aha. how do they solve the &map issue?
jnthn: right.
Tene masak: I didn't even know that map was an html element. Just leave it out. If you want it, name it something different.
like 'mappppppppp'
;) 20:41
jnthn image map I guess ;-)
erm, image-map
Tene yeah, that would be a better name. :)
masak Tene: was just curious how the Jifty folks had done it.
Tene ah. probably the same thing. 20:42
I know that they used 'row' instead of 'tr', iirc.
masak ah, same kind of collision there, yes.
sjohnson friends of Perl 6, may i ask a perl5 question?
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masak sjohnson: yes, but we reserve the right to bite you. :) 20:42
sjohnson here goes:
what is your favourite, cleanest, and shortest way to slurp a text file into a $string? 20:43
masak sjohnson: use Perl 6. :P
sjohnson $string = `cat text.txt`; would be the fastest way i know of
Tene { local $/; $string = <$fh>; }
is your best option in Perl 5.
Su-Shee sjohnson: there's File::Slurp if you don't want to do it by hand.
japhb sjohnson: I second Su-Shee's suggestion. 20:44
sjohnson you guys are good dudes
japhb Dangit, now I have a Beatles song going through my head ...
Tene sub slurp { my $name = shift; open my $fh, '<', $name; local $/; <$fh> }
is all you need.
sjohnson i think i need to learn some more Perl
you seem very "articulate" Tene 20:45
Tene and that's approximately what File::Slurp does anyway, iirc.
japhb Tene: he asked for "cleanest" among other things.
Tene japhb: Depending on the project, adding a CPAN module instead of a couple of lines to the file itself could be amuch less clean.
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Su-Shee ah. slurping. which brings me to something p6-ish. I've made a testing class and what I back in the old days did with "wantarray" and then return a slurped $file or an @lines I made in perl 6. 20:46
japhb Tene: oh sure ... and when I have to avoid startup time, I do it the local $/ way too.
Su-Shee I got a slurp($file) and a @lines $fh.lines in one method.
perl 6 just knows which is the array/scalar context. 20:47
can I mark that somehow cleanly?
masak Su-Shee: yes.
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masak Su-Shee: the accepted practice is to return an object which does the right thing when you treat it as a scalar and a list, respectively. 20:48
Su-Shee masak: that's what it does now.
masak Su-Shee: oh, then I may have misunderstood your question. 20:49
moritz_ since we'll probably remove want() that'll be the only way
Su-Shee masak: somehow I feel bad because it all looks very implicit and I feel I should make it more visible in the code.
masak Su-Shee: on the caller's side?
Su-Shee in the class. the caller just calls gimme_that 20:50
PerlJam Su-Shee: there's always scalar() and list()
masak PerlJam: isn't scalar() spelled item() nowadays?
PerlJam oh, right. 20:51
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Su-Shee hm. return $slurped_in if item and return @the_lines if list. 20:52
PerlJam that's the wrong end of the stick. 20:53
Su-Shee hm. maybe I just want to add more code where it isn't necessary.. 20:54
PerlJam That is what it sounds like to me right now.
Su-Shee perl 6 feels so short, I always think I'm missing something.. 20:55
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dalek kudo: 94b741a | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
Give Attribute the type and build attributes, and set them up in .^attributes.
 20:58
jnthn I'm in yer Rakudo, sneaking in introspekshun featurez before yer release. 20:59
moritz_ I noticed that ;-) 21:00
mikehh I'm getting some TODO passes now (against parrot r40185) 21:01
moritz_ in parameterized-type.t?
if so, svn up to 27672 (spectests) 21:02
21:04 Su-Shee left
mikehh at 27672 - t/spec/S06-signature/slurpy-params.rakudo TODO passed: 57 and 21:04
t/spec/S09-typed-arrays/arrays.rakudo - TODO passed: 50-53 21:05
just before jnthn's last update
Ubuntu 9.04 amd64
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jnthn oh, more accidental fixes. ;-) 21:07
For the arrays.rakudo anyway
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moritz_ jnthn: shall I unfudge those, or will you? 21:12
jnthn moritz_: Feel free. :_)
cj TimToady: I've been meaning to mention this to you for a while: wp.colliertech.org/cj/?p=495
pugs_svn r27673 | moritz++ | [t/spec] track jnthn++'s progress by unfudging 21:18
masak today I took the time to complain a little: use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39334 21:22
let me know what you think. :)
21:23 Jedai left
dalek kudo: 8c79a13 | jnthn++ | src/ (3 files):
Implement accessor attribute for Attribute descriptor class.
 21:23
moritz_ masak: I totally agree on the class/pod stuff, I though the same a few days ago 21:24
maybe {...} shouldn't interpolate, only &{...}? 21:25
but I'm quite sure TimToady++ will find that too ugly
jnthn austria++
masak moritz_: now, that's an idea.
jnthn: :)
jnthn: Austria is the new Foo
Tene masak: block form doesn't require indenting. 21:26
masak Tene: true enough, but that's basically in our genes by now.
Tene just do block form and don't indent.
moritz_ masak: regarding the block comments, I just comment out lines with '# ' (ie space after #), so that was never a problem for me
masak Tene: while theoretically possible, that solution creeps me out too.
moritz_: that's equivalent to my '##' solution.
moritz_ masak: yes, but visually nicer ;-) 21:27
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moritz_ (IMHO) 21:27
mikehh ok now all PASS
moritz_ (your bike shed might have a different colour)
masak moritz_: I'll have to try and compare. :)
mikehh he's updated again
jnthn I can empathize with the "pod must be in the leftmost column" thing.
literal how come multiple class / module statements prohibited in a file?
jnthn But maybe that's my being used to XMLDoc in C#.
literal +are 21:28
masak jnthn: me too. just saying it's very incompatible with block style.
moritz_ literal: probably to avoid amibiguous sitations wrt scope nesting
masak literal: actually, I don't know the rationale between that.
moritz_ class A { class B { } }; vs. class A; class b;
masak literal: mind you, it's only the statement form that cannot occur more than once.
literal yeah 21:29
21:29 hoelzro left
masak std: class A { class B; } 21:29
p6eval std 27673: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 36m␤»
literal I'm mostly asking because Perl 5 allowed you to change the package whenever
dalek kudo: fb0601a | jnthn++ | docs/ChangeLog:
Extra changelog entry plus tweaks.
masak literal: yes, and that's only possible with the block form now.
so it's like you're put in this strange choice between Pod comments or multiple classes in one file. 21:30
moritz_ and to change back to a previous package you need 'augment'
Tene masak: or not indenting your classes.
masak Tene: right. but it's a block! I indent blocks.
Tene masak: it's a bad situation to have a mandatory indent before every single non-class-declaration line int he file, IMO.
also, fwiw, I don't mind indented methods and left-aligned POD. 21:31
So, I have weird style preferences. :)
masak Tene: yes, you seem entirely impervious to my first complaint. :) 21:32
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moritz_ masak: I sometimes find {} in strings surprising, but I don't buy your Forms argument - there's no reason to use interpolating strings to build format strings 21:35
masak moritz_: I find that some people tend to use interpolating strings by default.
I don't, but some do.
Tene *that* is something that always bothers me. 21:36
PerlJam masak: the only one that gives me pause is the first one (block form classes + pod)
Tene I've been meaning to investigate whether there's a way to make interpolating strings without interpolation a syntax error (or at least warning).
jnthn masak: Argh, I meant that I empathized with your view point.
21:37 maja left
jnthn masak: That is, being able to have the docs and methods line up when using block form would be kinda nice. 21:37
moritz_ PerlJam: (to digress from the current topic) regarding your regex tutorial: I find it *very* good, and have just one improvement to make: as soon as you introduce whitespaces as metasyntactic, the readable form should be the default
so that people get used to the "right" thing from the beginning
masak jnthn: indeed. I'd go further and say it looks really bad when the Pod is outdented.
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masak PerlJam: here's the commit where I converted the Druid code base from block form to statement form. 21:39
github.com/masak/druid/commit/4eddd...113d9de73a
I maintain that outdented Pod and indented attrs/methods makes for very tought reading.
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PerlJam moritz_: thanks. And you're probably right. I'll look at it again tonight. 21:40
masak: I agree.
masak s/tought/tough/
moritz_ rakudo: say 3.^methods.map: *.name 21:41
p6eval rakudo 03aa56:
..OUTPUT«succperlACCEPTSWHICHScalarabsStrpredpairsunpolarordrandtruncatesortrindexsqrtintgrepvaluescharsrootsreverseisaucfirstkvsamecasecapitalizefmtbytesflipdoesp5choplcreducechr:d:e:fcombfloorroundchopsplitmatchwordscanlcfirstucComplexsrandkeyspolarmapcislogsubstr!from-radiansminmaxpicktr…
moritz_ rakudo: say 3.^methods(:local).map(*.name).join(', ')
p6eval rakudo 03aa56: OUTPUT«Str, pred, succ, WHICH, ACCEPTS, perl, abs, Scalar␤»
PerlJam masak: Though for method interfaces and the like, I'm a fan of "the code is the documentation" :-) It's all of the other documentation that's the problem.
moritz_ rakudo: say Match.^methods(:local).map(*.name).join(', ') 21:42
p6eval rakudo 03aa56: OUTPUT«chunks, , , postcircumfix:[ ], postcircumfix:{ }, !_perl, perl, , of, caps, !_perl_quant␤»
21:42 maja joined
PerlJam moritz_: I always throw a sort in there so that I can find what I'm looking for in a long list 21:42
moritz_ rakudo: say Match.^methods(:local).map(*.name).sort.join(', ')
p6eval rakudo 03aa56: OUTPUT«, , , !_perl, !_perl_quant, caps, chunks, of, perl, postcircumfix:[ ], postcircumfix:{ }␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say Match.^attributes.map(*.name).sort.join(', ')
p6eval rakudo 03aa56: OUTPUT«␤»
masak PerlJam: sure. note that I haven't bothered to list the types of the parameters and return types in my method Pod. I mostly talk about what the methods do. my target group is people who want to read about Druid but don't (yet) want to read the source. 21:43
moritz_ rakudo: say Match.^attributes 21:44
p6eval rakudo 03aa56: OUTPUT«␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (1..10).^attributes
p6eval rakudo 03aa56: OUTPUT«Attribute()<0xb61ab458>Attribute()<0xb6adb858>Attribute()<0xb6955368>Attribute()<0xb69548d0>Attribute()<0xb6953e38>␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (1..10).^attributes.map(*.name).sort.join(', ')
p6eval rakudo 03aa56: OUTPUT«$!by, $!from, $!from_exclusive, $!to, $!to_exclusive␤»
masak moritz_: Lisbon.pm and London.pm will host a World.pm social meeting in conncetion with YAPC::EU. maybe you should name the release World. :P 21:45
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masak time to sleep some. g'night, all. 21:46
21:46 masak left
moritz_ good night masak 21:47
dalek kudo: 5530469 | moritz++ | docs/announce/2009-07:
improved introspection warrants an entry the annonce text
 21:48
jnthn roles composing a class? 21:49
21:49 nanowit left
jnthn "roles *composed into* a class" is maybe better? 21:49
moritz_ jnthn: feel free to improve the wording
oh well, I'll do it 21:52
dalek kudo: 6062092 | moritz++ | docs/announce/2009-07:
[docs] improved wording by jnthn++
 21:54
21:54 M_o_C left 21:55 nihiliad left
PerlJam moritz_: Just make sure you don't make the release with those [TODO] tags in the release doc ;) 21:55
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moritz_ PerlJam: I'll do my very best. 21:56
jnthn moritz_: Sorry, wondered away to try and cool off a bit 21:57
moritz_++ # thanks for updating
PerlJam Hmm. Should it be mentioned in the release that there's more than one release manager now?
jnthn is running a high temperature today
Hope I'm not about to get sick or something. 21:58
Well, at least, in a way that distracts me more than my feverishness today has from Doing Stuff.
21:59 kidd_ joined, elmex left
cj @tell ? 22:00
lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:00 elmex joined
cj @tell TimToady I've been meaning to mention this to you for a while: wp.colliertech.org/cj/?p=495 22:00
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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jnthn OK, getting an early night...hopefully some sleep will shake off whatever I've got... 22:12
night all
Tene 'night jnthn
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mikehh rakudo - latest builds on parrot r40185 - All tests PASS 22:29
Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 22:30
22:30 justatheory joined
moritz_ rakudo: say 11875 / 17453 22:37
p6eval rakudo fb0601: OUTPUT«0.680398785309116␤»
22:43 decasm left 22:46 cdarroch left 22:49 Whiteknight left 22:55 rindolf left 22:56 justatheory left 22:58 kborer_ joined 22:59 tomyan joined 23:01 missingthepoint_ joined
tomyan std: my Rat sub returntype4 ($pass) as Num {$pass ?? 11 div 10 !! 1} 23:09
p6eval std 27673: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 39m␤»
23:10 Whiteknight joined 23:13 kborer_ left 23:16 kidd_ left 23:17 kborer left
tomyan i have an account for the pugs repository, which I don't know the password for... 23:18
anyone know how i can recover it?
pmichaud Good afternoon, #perl6
sjohnson hi pmichaud
friend, hero, and mentor 23:19
p6 hero
23:20 donaldh left, donaldh joined
tomyan nice talk pmichaud 23:20
pmichaud tomyan: thank you! 23:21
23:21 tomyan is now known as toyam
toyam i have some (pretty minor) mods to test from t/spec/TODO... 23:22
pmichaud excellent! toyam++
toyam is it best to commit (assuming I can recover my password) or send a patch somewhere?
pmichaud for things in the pugs repo, best to commit.
if you patch, people will say "please just commit" :-)
"if yuo send patch ..."
argggh
pmichaud is apparently unable to type this afternoon. 23:23
23:23 colomon left
toyam okay, will see if i can do some more until somebody turns up who can fix my password issue 23:23
23:26 colomon joined 23:28 Eevee left
pmichaud I'd help, but frankly I've forgotten how. :-| 23:28
[Coke] hurm. let me check my mail. 23:31
pugs commit bits? 23:33
pugs?
no bot in here? =-)
sorry. 23:34
toyam somewhere in commitbit.pugscode.org:6666/ ? 23:35
let me know if you need my email address
[Coke] toyam: toyam [email@hidden.address] ? 23:36
toyam yep
[Coke] I reinvited you. That seems to be how to get you to reset password.
toyam thanks 23:37
[Coke] thanks for the url. =-)
pugs_svn r27674 | toyam++ | Stop some tests in S02 assuming that a floating point literal like 1.2 is of type Rat. 23:38
toyam dev.pugscode.org/changeset/27674/ if anyone wwants to check that out...
pmichaud I agree with that one. 23:40
at least for now :-)
toyam phew 23:41

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