»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: , or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by wolfe.freenode.net on 30 October 2009.
Hurley hi 00:06
sjohnson hi Hurley
Hurley if i compile the perl6 developer version. Can i use perl5 modules? 00:07
sjohnson i dont believe the use v5 translator is ready yet 00:08
frettled That's right, it's not a top priority. 00:12
But as I understand it, it _is_ a priority, it's just that there are Perl 6 specific issues that are considered more important to fix first. 00:13
Strange that they want to finish fiddling with the actual language before adding legacy sugar, eh? ;)
sjohnson frettled: i suppose Perl 5 is something that'll be hard to say goodbye too :) 00:19
to*
sjohnson hugs perl 5.10 branch 00:21
dalek ok: 8fa9944 | chromatic++ | src/roles.pod:
Minor edits to the Roles chapter; some author notes.
 00:41
mberends commute & 05:49
pugs_svn r29475 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] better memoization & a bugfix. 06:08
r29476 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] cleanup old adhoc tests; add empty() and star() (greedy only for now) combinators 06:15
saschi g'morning!! ^^ 06:17
diakopter saschi: hi 06:19
saschi hey there! :)
dalek ok: d0103a2 | duff++ | src/builtins.pod:
[builtins] minor typos
 06:22
ok: 6ef4d99 | duff++ | src/preface.pod:
[preface] suggested sentence change by eternaleye++
ok: c8151a8 | duff++ | src/grammars.pod:
[grammars] add =begin/=end tags around code
sjohnson hi 06:30
pugs_svn r29477 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement character range() (all unicode codepoints supported, but the unicode range macros/definitions aren't yet implemented). will probably steal them from xregexp. 06:40
pugs_svn r29478 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] begin to port the support for named pattern references/resolution (i.e. grammar declaration/construction) 06:54
mberends ooh, Sprixel is on the boil again :-) 07:11
Su-Shee good morning 07:15
mberends gm Su-Shee, do you have any truffles for us today?
Su-Shee mberends: no, but I can give you my todo list which involved mopping kitchen and bathroom. ;) 07:17
yath hands a roomba to Su-Shee 07:19
Su-Shee doesn't the thing just sweep and not mop? ;)
yath yes, but there's a, hm 07:20
there's something that mops, too
Su-Shee needs a cleaning lady.
plain and simple.
yath and expensive
Su-Shee not really. 07:21
the time I have to work to pay her is much less then the time I waste doing household on my own.
yath hehe
Su-Shee no, really. simple calculation. two technians, two technician salaries > cleaning lady once a week ;) 07:22
sjohnson Su-Shee: do you do much Javascript stuff? 07:28
sjohnson was just thinking about how you also got that good book about the Good and Bad parts 07:29
i bought it as I have to use JS at work :|
pugs_svn r29479 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement computeRefs and the first portion of Grammar.compile 07:34
saschi hey Su-Shee, sjohnson, yath, mberends ^^ 07:43
Su-Shee sjohnson: yes, I do. And I like it. 07:45
sjohnson Su-Shee: did you find a good book that kind of gives a good tutorial of JS other than the "Definitive Guide"? 07:47
i found it to be a bit lacking, even though it's a huge book 07:48
saschi: hi
mberends hi saschi!
Su-Shee sjohnson: how do you mean exactly? there's javascript, the language and "handling DOM with javascript"
(and programming firefox, but that's really specific.) 07:49
sjohnson Su-Shee: something like a... camel book, or something close to it 07:50
i keep hearing about jQuery maybe i should try it out 07:51
diakopter sjohnson: www.amazon.com/dp/047022780X/
Su-Shee well tutorial-wise, you usally go by subject you're interested in and use something from the web; js is really extremely well discussed. as an overview, a short reference should do. and there's a bunch of cookbook style books (I think, ORA has one)
sjohnson: that's a framework doing web widget, ajax and such for you. 07:52
diakopter sjohnson: the one I linked above is written by the author I respect the most when it comes to JavaScript. 07:52
sjohnson thanks u 2 will look into these 07:53
Su-Shee hasn't john resig written some book?
diakopter www.amazon.com/dp/193398869X/
www.amazon.com/dp/1590597273/ 07:54
afk&
Su-Shee sjohnson: ^^^ there. that's the guy who has written jquery and implemented processing in js. 07:55
sjohnson thanks 07:56
!
saschi i hope in webgl ^-^ 09:04
moritz_ good localtime() fellow #perl6 inhabitants 10:26
szbalint hai2u
frettled rakudo: say localtime(); 10:39
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: Could not find non-existent sub localtime␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
frettled :(
;)
moritz_ rakudo: say time 10:53
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: 1262947337.07978␤
lisppaste3 rhuxton pasted "Sorting a hash and splitting key/value at the same time" at paste.lisp.org/display/93141 11:53
rhuxton Hi all - just spent my first hour playing with rakudo and it feels like Christmas already :-) Is there a "perlish" way to sort a hash and split key/value at the same time?
moritz_ rakudo: say (a => 3).kv.perl 11:54
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: ["a", 3]␤
moritz_ rhuxton: how do you want to sort? 11:55
rakudo: my %h = (c => 1, b => 2, c => 3); say %h.sort».kv
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: ( no output )
moritz_ don't know why p6eval doesn't like that 11:56
rebuilding now, I think it should work
$ perl6 -e 'my %h = (c => 1, b => 2, a => 3); say %h.sort».kv.perl'
[["a", 3], ["b", 2], ["c", 1]]
$ perl6 -e 'my %h = (c => 1, b => 2, a => 3); say %h.sort.map({ @(.kv)}).perl' 11:57
["a", 3, "b", 2, "c", 1]
hejki erm
my rakudo does the first one right
moritz_ might be a problem with the evalbot :(
hejki oh
:>
btw.. >> > » :) 11:58
moritz_ anyway, that sorts the pairs in the hash, and then turns the pairs into lists 11:58
rhuxton Thanks moritz_ - I'm getting a "StopIteration" from rakudo after the first two pairs, but that's probably a buglet in the precise version of rakudo I grabbed. Off to read up about ">>" now :-) 12:01
moritz_ @array>>.method just calls method on every array element
StopIteration is the less-than-awesome error message you often get when you iterate with two variables over an odd number of of elements 12:02
rakudo: for 1, 2, 3 -> $a, $b { say "$a|$b" }
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: 1|2␤StopIteration␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
rhuxton Ah, then it's a bug in the precise version of rakudo I grabbed then (since the other ways of hash-sorting work fine). I'll do a "git pull" (if that's the equivalent of svn update) and try again later. 12:05
hejki rakudo: for 1..4 -> $a, $b { if 1 % ($a|$b) { say "foo" } } 12:06
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: foo␤foo␤
hejki dang.. typo :P
rakudo: for 1..4 -> $a, $b { if 2 % ($a|$b) { say "foo" } }
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: foo␤
hejki najs
really najs :)
pmurias diakopter: hi 12:09
rhuxton [cue light-bulb going on sound-effect] Ah, the kv method is on Pair, as well as Hash. 12:10
moritz_ right
there's even a .kv method on List
rakudo: say <a b c>.kv.perl
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: [0, "a", 1, "b", 2, "c"]␤
moritz_ arrays have keys also 12:11
usually called index
rhuxton OK, Next question: how do I find what methods Pair (or any other class) support? Happy enough using ack to rummage through source if necessary.
moritz_ ack is good :-)
rakudo: say Pair.^methods».name.join(' ')
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: perl ACCEPTS get_string Scalar fmt key value pairs kv atan ord acos :l eval chop tanh int atanh cosec :s chars roots uc reverse keys isa ucfirst tan log10 substr cos bytes pick fmt evalfile acosec join sinh asinh cosech trim asec chr acotanh floor sech asech rand truncate sort round
..rinde…
moritz_ rakudo: say Pair.^methods(:local)».name.join(' ') 12:12
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: value pairs kv perl ACCEPTS get_string Scalar fmt key␤
rhuxton Aha! Introspection. Good :) What's the caret mean there? I know of its use in regexps, closure-variable-thingummies and junctions. 12:16
moritz_ it means "call a method on the meta class" 12:17
rhuxton Because "Pair" itself returns an instance of class Pair rather than an object representing the class, presumably. 12:21
moritz_ rhuxton: no, because introspection is handled by the meta class 12:22
rakudo: say ~(a => 3).^methods(:local)».name
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: get_string Scalar fmt key value pairs kv perl ACCEPTS␤
moritz_ that's with a Pair object, and it looks exactly the same
rhuxton Hmm - time to restart the reading / playing cycle I think :-) 12:24
moritz_: thanks very much - most helpful.
moritz_ rhuxton: you're welcome. And feel free to continue asking
Su-Shee if I role-d something into a class with a role and I inherit this class, do I get the roled in stuff with it or would I have to role in again? 12:53
moritz_ you get the composed methods an atributes
composing a role is a lot like writint these methods and attributes in the class directly 12:54
Su-Shee assume, I did a role somethere in class A, inherited it and now I'm including the same role in Class F (which already inherited everything) - are role methods and attributes overwritten? can they be overloaded? 12:56
will I get some error like "Role XX already included" or something? 12:57
moritz_ the spec says something along the lines "a role may never conflict with itself" 13:03
takadonet morning all 13:14
mathw heh 13:40
I just wrote some C++ code using the >> operator
keep thinking 'that's not right hyper syntax'
takadonet hehe 13:42
mathw almost wrote a hyper method call at one point 13:43
takadonet I have not written any Perl 6 code in my Perl 5 yet.... 13:45
takadonet Sometime I notice that a few places that a junction would be great right about now in my code 13:46
mathw :) 13:47
I do that too
once you've used any() a couple of times in an if condition...
rodi use Quantum::Superpositions # any() in Perl5, inspiration for any() in Perl6 IIRC. 14:08
mathw of course I could write myself an any() in C++ 14:09
PerlJam rodi: you mean "use Perl6::Junctions" these days Q::S is old 14:18
flip214 Hello, short question again ... 14:19
rodi PerlJam++: mm, shiny :) s/Junctions/Junction/ . 14:21
flip214 Is there a way to make a function signature that allows some parameter with a specified class (sub x(myClass obj))
which then accepts *only* this class, and not any derived?
But maybe that doesn't make sense ... or does it?
If an inherited class is passed as parameter, is it "dumbed down" to the lower-level class object before being passed? 14:22
I feel confused ...
mathw standard OO polymorphism
it'll accept an instance of any derived type
you could use a where clause to do an exact check, I think
PerlJam flip214: sub foo (my Thingy $x where { .isa(Thingy) }) { ... }
mathw but it should be very rare to need such a thing
as it's an indicator of a dodgy OO design 14:23
PerlJam flip214: what mathw said.
flip214 thanks
perljam: but wouldn't that check the lower-level object already?
flip214 So that sub foo($x where { .isa(myClass) }) would work? Avoids the repetition, too. 14:24
PerlJam yeah, that would work. 14:25
not sure about the order of the checks though; specifying the nominal type may avoid the constraint check entirely when you accidently pass some non-MyClass object. But whatever ... that's probably a premature optimization :) 14:26
Ha! from #perl ... 14:28
< squeeky> perl6 actually exists. "cloud computing" is exactly what a cloud is. vapor.
flip214 Well, was just some thought. Thank you very much! 14:29
PerlJam Clearly we are making progress when people start saying "perl6 actually exists" :) 14:29
mathw yes
although without context it's impossible to tell if it was sarcastic
mathw I'm assuming it wasn't 14:30
PerlJam It wasn't I don't think. The text leading up to the statement had me all set to defend Perl 6 as not being vapor, but then he went in the unexpected direction to claim that it was cloud computing that was vapor
takadonet morning colomon 14:31
mathw cool
For someone to say that in #perl who isn't one of us lot is definitely a step forward 14:32
soupdragon one of us! one of us!
perlsyntax Does anyone know when perl 6 comeing out? 15:35
Gothmog_ They usually say it comes christmas. 15:36
perlsyntax that long i thought it was this christms. 15:37
thanks
PerlJam blah 15:39
pugs_svn r29480 | masak++ | [S12-objects] various consistencifications 15:51
r29480 |
r29480 | - one case of 'enum type' which should be 'enumeration type'
r29480 | - the C<.true> method is now called C<.so>, according to S32
r29480 | - so is the function
r29480 | - s/an an/an/
r29480 |
r29480 | [S32] removed comment about musings about .true and .defined
r29480 |
r29480 | The musings are actually addressed in some of the above corrected
r29480 | paragraphs in S12.
TimToady PerlJam: um, .isa is not going to an exact type check either, if that's what flip214 really wanted... 16:37
PerlJam oh, I guess not. 16:38
that a was pre-caffienated PerlJam though. He's crazy.
ash_ to do an exact match, you could check the object's WHAT 16:42
moritz_ right 16:43
$obj.WHAT === ::Type
pugs_svn r29481 | lwall++ | [S12] extra tweak to masak++'s tweak, now that "so" is less confusable as a value. 16:44
TimToady std: m:5x(42)// 16:46
p6eval std 29480: ===SORRY!===␤Missing term at /tmp/uc8bkaITvF line 1 (EOF):␤------> m:5x(42)//⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ prefix or term␤ standard stopper␤ term␤ terminator␤ whitespace␤FAILED 00:02 110m␤
pmurias TimToady: should things in STD_P5.pm hava a p5 prefix? like p5term? 16:53
TimToady pmurias: currently termish renames p5term to term; probably so that method EXPR doesn't get confused 16:57
in general, it depends on how much we want to reuse the p6 code 16:58
pmurias TimToady: -e '1' doesn't work with STD_P5, is it expected? 16:59
TimToady STD_P5 is only partially translated from a p6 parser to a p5 parser. I wouldn't expect anything to work yet... 17:01
colomon_ takadonet: apologies for not returning your hello this morning. I started to and then I got disconnected from the server and my software didn't want to reconnect. And then I took a long nap because I am sick. 17:17
takadonet colomon_: np man 17:17
was only mad for a few hours :P
colomon_ :p
diakopter pmurias: hi 17:19
pmurias diakopter: rehi 17:20
diakopter what's up
pmurias diakopter: what would i need to make mildew-js use sprixel for rules? 17:21
diakopter heh 17:22
Tene I tried commenting on a post on blogs.perl.org
I got: Your comment submission failed for the following reasons: Text entered was wrong. Try again.
That's... great.
TimToady MLTA 17:23
diakopter captcha?
pmurias: not much, probably; but *I* would have to do a lot (still) ;)
Tene blogs.perl.org/users/ovid/2010/01/c...erl-6.html -- I don't see a captcha...
moritz_ Tene: do you have javascript activated? 17:24
Tene moritz_: yes.
diakopter wow, that's utterly broken. 17:25
Tene I was going to comment on not needing a closure, as 'where :f' is sufficient.
diakopter I click "Sign in", and it loads a new page, but the back button is grayed out.
and there's no "cancel" button/link on the sign-in page. 17:26
Tene I just tried to comment anonymously.
takadonet I love that the members of the community always want to post useful comments on anything that relates to Perl 6 17:28
PerlJam Hmm. I wonder if subset Filename of Str where :f or die; # works. I would guess that it does not.
moritz_ being logged in it seems that I can comment
PerlJam (or rather it "works" but doesn't do what I intend :)
Tene where is :f documented anyway? 17:29
moritz_ in S32/IO somewhere, probably
but it's outdated anyway
moritz_ it should .IO.f or where .IO ~~ :f or so 17:30
takadonet waiting for someone to post a comment...
moritz_ rakudo: subset Filename of Str where :f; my Filename "/etc/password/"; 17:30
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: Malformed declaration at line 2, near "Filename \""␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
Tene the ~~ :foo still seems a bit sketchy to me. Is that Pair.ACCEPTS ?
TimToady moritz_: did you ever see the comment on your Perl 6 in 2009 blogging?
moritz_ TimToady: yes
Tene: it calls the 'foo' method on $_ 17:31
Tene moritz_: no, that's .foo, not :foo
yes?
moritz_ ... and does something with the return value
XOR or so 17:32
probably S03, smartmatch table
$a ~~ :b($c) is something like $a.b() !xor $c
ash_ PerlJam: I think someone on the mailing list was tlaking about Filename as a subset of Str like that, but they were using fail i think, not die 17:34
PerlJam ash_: that was me :)
ash_ oops, my bad 17:35
moritz_ rakudo: subset Filename of Str where :f; my Filename $x = "/etc/password/";
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: ( no output )
moritz_ rakudo: subset Filename of Str where :f; my Filename $x = "/etc/asdfasödf";
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: ( no output ) 17:36
moritz_ so it doesn't seem to work
moritz_ aborts commenting
Tene I've worried a little bit a few times about the length of the smartmatch table contradicting the stated goal of p6 to avoid memorizing arbitrary lists. 17:37
TimToady the point is to put all the memorizing into one spot
PerlJam and most of that table is "obvious" 17:38
the thing that it does is the thing you'd expect given the two sides of ~~ 17:39
TimToady and given that you don't expect symmetry, *cough*
PerlJam well, that's part of the non-obvious :)
TimToady and given that you don't expect lists to automatically any-fy themselves 17:40
Tene Any ~~ Pair isn't quite obvious to me, I guess. I'd expect to do method smartmatches with *.foo, not :foo
So I'm not quite convinced of the utility, but maybe I should think on it more.
TimToady the :foo form is more easily negated, and arguably looks simpler in a junction 17:41
Tene nods.
TimToady though a junction of closures oughta work, I suppose 17:42
Tene Not a real objection at all, just thinking out loud.
TimToady and p5 programmers are expecting a special form for filetests anyway
it's easy to translate -f to :f in your head 17:43
Tene :foo is :foo(1) or :foo(Bool::True) ? 17:45
PerlJam yes :)
Tene :P
moritz_ True
not 1
moritz_
.oO( but not 1 is False, so that answer wasn't very helpful :-)
 17:46
PerlJam I'm probably going to write :foo(0) before I write :foo(False) though
(see? I just did it)
Tene PerlJam: !:foo is standard for negated, iirc.
PerlJam Tene: right. I was just commenting on the :foo() form. 17:47
TimToady :!foo, not !:foo 17:49
then there's :0foo
PerlJam but that's :0fun 17:50
:)
Tene www.reddit.com/r/programming/commen...?context=1 17:51
TimToady heh, the specs are still full of :by
PerlJam :fun :nofun ... could we get some magic there? (that'll probably be one of the grammar mods soon after people really start using Perl 6 if not) 17:53
TimToady what's wrong with :!fun ? 17:55
diakopter :frap
TimToady and do you really want people to get confused by things like :none
TimToady "don't go northeast?" O_o 17:55
PerlJam nothing at all, but someone always seems to introduce a "no" prefix to negate something
TimToady someone is always wrong 17:56
negation should not be inband with identifiers
PerlJam inventory?
you have: no tea 17:57
It's all douglas adams' fault :)
moritz_ should have used a Bag
TimToady I'd rather have a Tea Set
TimToady actually, at the moment I'd rather have a Hash 17:59
takadonet need more people upvoting Tene comment on reddit!
diakopter I was going to say, Tea Pot and Tea Hash seem redundant
TimToady well, why didn't you?
diakopter I guess we'll never know
huf it's better if you blend the two, so no, not redundant
but the tea bit is confusing me 18:00
cognominal I am using the parrot/tools/dev/create_language.pl but want to use nqp instead of perl 6. I tweaked the generated Makefile but parrot does not want to compile the perl6 generated pir file : /Users/stef/git/rakudo/parrot_install/bin/parrot -o psal.pbc src/Psal.pir
error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected PREG, expecting '(' ('$P40')
any idea what I am doing wrong
diakopter probably something in what you're typing
moritz_ cognominal: uhm, I thought create_language.pl defaulted to NQP? 18:01
cognominal moritz_, that's my point
moritz_ cognominal: so you want perl6 instead of nqp??
s/'??'/?/ :-)
cognominal but why a pir file generated by perl6 would not be acceptable to parrot? 18:02
moritz_ because rakudo needs some dynops
that need to be loaded
cognominal moritz_, hum, why that would explain a syntax error? 18:03
Tene cognominal: Parrot questions are more appropriate in #parrot on irc.perl.org 18:04
cognominal I want perl6 because I can't remember the used subset. Also I am just refactoring code that worked before using the create_language tool chain
moritz_ cognominal: IMCC knows about operators. If it doesn't know about dynops => syntax error 18:05
Tene cognominal: you need to make sure that rakudo is loaded before the generated PIR is parsed.
put "load_language 'perl6'" in a :immediate sub at the start of the file.
cognominal thx, I will try it 18:06
#perl6 and #haskell are probably both the most helpful channels on freenode :) 18:07
btw I am dabbling with some pir preprocessor :) 18:08
diakopter don't burn your navel into your retinas 18:11
cognominal: sry; that wasn't directed at you
cognominal is that a pun? :) 18:12
diakopter a quip 18:12
Su-Shee burns indian spices for dinner and reads snow catastrophy warnings. 18:15
good evening all.
takadonet Su-Shee: evening
rodi In S02, what should I infer about the inclusion of "Widget" on the list of Undefined types? 18:18
moritz_ no idea 18:18
probably "it was Cool at that time" SCNR :-) 18:19
rodi LOL 18:20
Cool is on the list right before it, though :)
PerlJam rodi: Just that you can get a typed but undefined value for any class in that manner I think 18:28
rodi: (no, there is no official Widget class :) 18:29
cognominal I asked TimToady : <cognominal>TimToady, btw, S02 mentions the class Widget twice without ever saying what it is 18:30
his answer: widgets: www.perl.com/2003/07/16/graphics/slide72.jpg
Tene That's such a useful answer.
rodi hahahahaha, thanks cognomial 18:30
PerlJam escher++
cognominal your master will answer clearly when you will have progressed in the path on enlightment. But then, you will need no master. 18:32
www.perl.com/pub/a/2003/07/16/soto2...tml?page=7 # for more information... 18:35
I realize that my pir preprocessor in perl6 is just that : www.perl.com/2003/07/16/graphics/slide65.jpg 18:38
PerlJam That's just the normal bootstrap picture. :) 18:39
PerlJam people need to be reminded of this one today: www.perl.com/2003/07/16/graphics/slide61.jpg 18:41
cognominal "But what you really want to know about is the future state of Perl. That's nice. I don't know much about the future of Perl. Nobody does. That's part of the design of Perl 6. Since we're designing it to be a mutable language, it will probably mutate." 18:45
Only change is for sure. Let's explain that to people who want a stable perl 6
rodi I sure like the semantics of KeySet. 18:47
diakopter tbf, that's a poor excuse. while *want*ing isn't a bad thing (demanding is), holding accountable to [poorly set/managed] expectations isn't always bad. just because one might want to adjust the expectations now doesn't mean they weren't mis-aligned in the past. 18:48
cognominal tbf?
diakopter to be frank
"you are not allowed to have expectations. any expectations you may have had were misguided. nothing is certain. stop asking until we say it's okay" 18:49
rodi "the design process will be spiral, cooperative, and convergent. The rate of convergence is an emergent property, and cannot be forced, only encouraged." 18:51
cognominal that's S01? 18:52
diakopter those are very different messages
diakopter "Only change is for sure. Let's explain that to people who want a stable perl 6" is caustic and communicates nothing but derision, futility, scorn, apathy, but most of all, _impunity_. 18:58
PerlJam Hmm. 19:00
I think your projecting a tad much of yourself into those sentences. 19:01
s/your/you're/
diakopter if that's true, it buttresses "it takes one to know one" :/ 19:02
PerlJam (or, put another way, I don't see derision, scorn, or apathy at all) 19:03
diakopter oh
I wasn't describing the denotation. I was describing the possible connotations.
cognominal designing for change is just typical perl hubris... 19:04
PerlJam Well, futility is something that most humans are going to need to learn anyway :)
PerlJam diakopter: Sure, those are all possibilities ... it all depends on what baggage the reader brings with them as to how they interpret the text. 19:06
diakopter I agree. I think it's important to consider the reader's/hearer's baggage. 19:07
inasmuch as it communicates futility & impunity, it can sting with derision/scorn/apathy. 19:09
PerlJam It's a slippery fish no matter how you look at it. You should consider the reader, but you can't be responsible for their take on your text. They have to own up to their interpretation and you have to own up to possibly not being clear. So then you dialog. 19:12
cognominal now I crash parrot :( 19:13
at least load_language was the right thing
diakopter I'm not claiming that a communicator is entirely responsible for the interpretation, but certainly largely.
but "Only change is for sure." is just plain wrong 19:14
cognominal good thing is that it is in load_language...
diakopter: plain wrong? I thought it as a tautology :)
diakopter "only change is for sure" was true only prior to the first Apocalypse.
PerlJam depends on what you're talking about :) 19:16
diakopter what are you talking about? 19:17
cognominal what I was talking about? :)
diakopter which was? 19:18
cognominal forgot the incantation to say to gdb wher to search for the sources :( 19:18
PerlJam If you look at the world through the lens of Perl 6 development, "only change is for sure" was true well after the first Apocalypse. 19:21
rodi Another spec question: In S32/Containers, what can I infer from the "junction" heading being lowercase, when the rest the classes in that list are C<ucfirst>? 19:41
PerlJam rodi: a typo? 19:42
PerlJam looks
diakopter something about a trout's lap 19:43
PerlJam rodi: where exactly?
rodi PerlJam: perlcabal.org/syn/S32/Containers.html#junction 19:44
PerlJam yeah, I'd go with typo 19:45
rodi Okay, TimToady usually fixes those, I guess? 19:46
PerlJam rodi: do you have a commit bit for the pugs repo?
rodi Yeah.
Or at least, I used to. 19:47
PerlJam then you can fix it. 19:47
If it's wrong, someone will fix your fix :)
rodi :)
ash_ isn't that normally reverting a change? 19:50
fixing a fix sounds recursive
pugs_svn r29482 | rodi++ | C<ucfirst(junction)> with apologies if it was that way for a good reason. 19:58
rodi In another spec question, I am surfing between S02 and S32/Containers. KeySet and KeyBag are on a list of Mutable types in S02, defined in terms of KeyHash. KeyHash is not on that list, but has a very nice description in S32/Containers (as do KeySet and KeyBag). Is KeyHash left off the S02 list by intent? 20:03
Oh, and did I mention I like the semantics of KeySet? :) 20:06
rodi I like it so much, I wish I could have a KeySet of KeySet. 20:09
saschi hi 20:09
mberends hi 20:09
PerlJam rodi: I think it was an error of omission WRT KeyHash in S02 20:10
pugs_svn r29483 | mberends++ | [vill] added and updated many files, but still not generating code properly 20:33
dugg mberends: does using viv + STD mean that vill will get STD's warnings and error messages by default? 20:50
mberends dugg: yes, they are emitted to stderr, no matter what you do with the viv output. 20:51
dugg mberends++; # sweet 20:52
dugg suspects his ridiculously old laptop might take a minute to build llvm 2.6 21:18
ash_ the llvm is pretty big 21:21
mberends dugg: building llvm can take over 30 minutes on a young laptop, especially when configuring without the --enable-targets and --enable-optimized options, see file:///usr/share/doc/llvm-doc/html/GettingStarted.html#config 21:22
--enable-targets=host-only is the biggest time saver 21:24
Tene www.reddit.com/r/programming/commen..._6/c0ifzfu
-- "anybody knows a good, short introductory text on Perl 6 for Perl 5 programmers?"
Su-Shee Tene: are you just quoting or asking? 21:25
mberends perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6 by moritz_++ 21:26
Tene Su-Shee: quoting.
Su-Shee ah, ok. 21:27
Tene mberends: thanks
Su-Shee otherwise I would have said the same as mberends :)
saschi need tomate soup
eh, tomato >_< 21:28
rodi std: my KeyHash of KeyHash %foo; #what does this mean? 21:33
p6eval std 29483: ok 00:01 108m␤
rodi std my KeySet of KeySet %foo; # I meant this, not the previous.
std: my KeySet of KeySet %foo; # I meant this, not the previous. 21:34
p6eval std 29483: ok 00:01 106m␤
rodi specifically, is this something which parses, but is nonsensical, or something that has semantics that I just can't grok?
dugg mberends++: yeah, took that from your nice README 21:38
mberends :) glad somebody reads docs
ash_ docs, what are those? i am not sick 21:44
</sarcasm>
mberends it's where jnthn++ hides his passwords ;-)
dugg compiled llvm 2.6 in 45 min 36 sec. *whew* 22:13
ash_ sweet, did you build all the bindings? i like how it comes with C/C++ and OCaml bindings, i know very few people that know ocaml, seems odd 22:15
dugg ash_: I didn't, it was a basic fulfillment of a vill requirement, and I followed the "build as fast as you can" style configure options for it from the vill/README. 22:17
ash_ ah, well, as long as you have what you need then, i just like playing with programming languages, ocaml is interesting... syntax is odd though 22:18
dugg Totally! I'll blame you when no yaks in my area have hair.
dugg mberends: In vill/Makefile I needed the make clean target to have: 22:19
- @find . -executable -type f -exec rm {} ';' # er, executables?
+ @find . -perm +x -type f -exec rm {} ';' # er, executables?
at line 363 or so. 22:20
My `find` didn't like -executable.
mberends dugg++: the testing has all been Linux based, this feedback is useful :) 22:20
dugg ash_: They will have been shaved with Ocaml's razor [grin] 22:21
pugs_svn r29484 | mberends++ | [vill] 'make clean' tweak from dugg++, another TODO in link_codegen.cpp 22:26
wayland76 I'm thinking about parallelism, and wondering if we've considered en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL 22:42
TimToady not directly, but the reason we have hypers is to support such coprocessing easily; likewise feed operators are for cell processors really 22:45
hypers are a natural for GPUs, though 22:46
especially once we get compact arrays of native types
pugs_svn r29485 | lwall++ | [STD] disallow :!foo(0) and :5bar[42] as suggested by masak++ 22:49
pugs_svn r29486 | lwall++ | [S02,S09,S32] get rid of :by fossils 23:56

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