»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | Rakudo Star Released!
Set by diakopter on 6 September 2010.
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lichtkind good night 00:07
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lucas_ hi everyone 00:16
why we dont get diffs anymore in commit messages in perl6-language?
is it because of the recent pugs respository move?
colomon lucas_: yes, exactly 00:18
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TimToady please read the discussion there 00:19
(there meaning p6l) 00:23
it is, alas, under the subject: remove some some duplicate words words
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lucas_ oh, now I see... sorry, missed. thanks! 00:30
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lucas_ the first thing that came to my mind was: 00:38
"let's use some rss2email program"
sjohnson cool
lucas_ but the RSS entries doesn't contain the diffs either
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dukeleto Finaly Summary of GSoC 2010: leto.net/dukeleto.pl/2010/09/google...mmary.html 00:49
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dalek kudo: 859f2d9 | colomon++ | src/core/Iterable.pm:
Add Iterable.Numeric so that Arrays (and other Iterable types) numify to Int rather than to Num.
 02:05
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nimiezko How can I use List role methods (get...) ? 02:30
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nimiezko rakudo: my @list = 1..10 ; my $it <== @list ; 02:33
p6eval rakudo 780732: OUTPUT«Method 'push' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/oStMvx79sP␤»
colomon rakudo: my @array = 1..10; my $list = @array.list; say $list.shift; say $list.shift 02:34
p6eval rakudo 780732: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
colomon I'm not familiar with get in this context...
nimiezko I search a non-destructive way to go through an array (i.e. without shifting) 02:37
colomon rakudo: my @array = 1..10; my $list = @array.list; say $list.shift; say $list.shift; say @array.perl
p6eval rakudo 780732: OUTPUT«1␤2␤[3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10]␤» 02:38
colomon rakudo: my @array = 1..10; my $list = @array.list.iterator; say $list.shift; say $list.shift; say @array.perl
p6eval rakudo 780732: OUTPUT«Method 'shift' not found for invocant of class 'ListIter'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/PjHLEsVFKK␤»
colomon rakudo: my @array = 1..10; my $list = @array.list.iterator.list; say $list.shift; say $list.shift; say @array.perl
p6eval rakudo 780732: OUTPUT«1␤2␤[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10]␤»
colomon that's kind of round about, I'm sure there's a better way I'm not thinking of. 02:39
nimiezko rakudo: my @array = 1..10; my $list = @array.list; say $list.shift; say $list.shift ; say $list.perl ; say $list.get ;
p6eval rakudo 780732: OUTPUT«1␤2␤[3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10]␤Method 'get' not found for invocant of class 'Array'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/BDqWM6jI_e␤»
nimiezko colomon: could you explain the ".list.iterator.list" to a newbie ? 02:40
colomon actually, it's probably overkill ... one moment.
rakudo: my @array = 1..10; my $list = @array.iterator.list; say $list.shift; say $list.shift; say @array.perl 02:41
p6eval rakudo 780732: OUTPUT«1␤2␤[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10]␤»
colomon there we go.
so @array.iterator.list is all you need.
basically, .iterator gives you a non-destructive iterator into @array. 02:42
and then .list builds a new List object using it.
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colomon So when you do the shifts, they destroy $list but not @array. 02:42
nimiezko thanks 02:43
colomon no prob.
of course, depending on what you are doing, there are probably easier ways to iterate over an array.
as long as you don't want quite that detailed control over that iteration. 02:44
like for @array -> $a { whatever }
but I presume you are looking for greater control?
nimiezko presume well
my get should be on a distinct sub 02:45
colomon I'm not sure I understand you? 02:46
nimiezko Not sure I express myself clearly 02:47
I have a sub which actually receive an array and shift over it
colomon ah!
nimiezko but at the end (after various execution of this sub) I need the initial array 02:48
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colomon The @array.iterator.list should work for you there, I think. 02:50
I've got to go to bed now. Good luck!
nimiezko Good night ! Will get some sleep too. 02:51
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lue hello o/ 03:57
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tylercurtis \o, lue. 04:11
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mfollett probably a dumb question, but does the order of subroutine traits matter? 04:24
tylercurtis mfollett: Potentially. 04:25
Or, at least, I think so.
mfollett ok 04:27
tylercurtis For example, I suspect that a "returns" trait, if supplied, on a NCI function using Zavolaj's "is native(...)" trait needs to precede the is native.
mfollett whee is is native defined? 04:28
tylercurtis github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/
mfollett oh, cool 04:29
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mfollett what is the proper syntax for exporting a subroutine? 05:08
tylercurtis "sub foo () is export {...}"
mfollett hmm… I thought I tried that… 05:09
tylercurtis Rakudo might require the sub to be our right now, but I'm not sure.
If so, "our sub foo () is export {...}"
mfollett yep, that solved it, thanks! tylercurtis++ 05:10
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diakopter phenny: ask TimToady in S06, You can get the current routine name by calling &?ROUTINE.name. Outside of any sub declaration, this call returns failure. But please can .name also be a method on a callframe object? 05:15
phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
diakopter or would that be too much unbounded dynamism 05:16
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masak oh hai, #perl6! 05:19
phenny masak: 08 Sep 22:32Z <moritz_> ask masak if there's a good reason to keep the 'buf' branch on github around
masak no. deleting.
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masak ah; seems to have already been done. 05:20
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masak wow. got talk evaluations for my two YAPC talks. agree with every single word written by the evaluators, both the 'worked well' ones and the 'could be improved' ones. sppoky. :) 05:30
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masak at least I seem to be in touch with my evaluators. :P 05:30
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masak use.perl.org shuts down posting? twitter.com/briandfoy_perl/status/23952060808 06:00
wow, seems I will need to migrate sooner than I thought. 06:01
not sure how many p6ers are still using use.perl.org -- I can only think of pmichaud and lichtkind right now. 06:02
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masak rakudo: sub f($x, $y) { say $x }; my &g = &f.assuming(5); g 06:19
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤ in 'f' at line 22:/tmp/5kFnLGh79b␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
masak ok, one could argue that the numbers should be 0 and 1, respectively, and that the function should be g. 06:20
but fair enough, not necessarily a bug.
this, however: 06:21
rakudo: class A { our method f($x: $y) { say $x } }; my $a = A.new; my &g = &A::f.assuming( x => $a ); g
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 2␤ in 'A::f' at line 22:/tmp/K0sd4n9Bcu␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
masak submits rakudobug
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masak I never have liked, and probably never will like the fact that the invocant is counted among the positional parameters. but I'm willing to write that off as a hard-to-fix Parrot idiosyncracy. 06:24
but the 0 there is wrong. we are passing in one of the two arguments.
can't have it both ways :) 06:25
tylercurtis masak: doesn't .&foo rely on the invocant being the first positional parameter? 06:26
masak yes, and I accept that there's such a mapping going on, both explicitly and implicitly. 06:27
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masak I just don't consider it least-surprise to count it in the error messages. 06:27
at least not without explanation.
rakudo: class A { our method f($x: $y) { say $x } }; my $a = A.new; my &g = &A::f.assuming( y => 42 ); g 06:28
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 2␤ in 'A::f' at line 22:/tmp/GfiOmli8GZ␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
masak rakudo: class A { our method f($x: $y, $z) { say $x } }; my $a = A.new; my &g = &A::f.assuming( y => 42, z => 5 ); g 06:29
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 3␤ in 'A::f' at line 22:/tmp/aMuTAgvwyz␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
masak seems it always gives 0.
sorear good * #perl6
TimToady: temp is not the use case ! 06:30
masak *, sorear.
sorear seen pmurias 06:33
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen pmurias.
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TimToady sorear: what do you call irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-09-02#i_2775222 then? 06:40
phenny TimToady: 05:15Z <diakopter> ask TimToady in S06, You can get the current routine name by calling &?ROUTINE.name. Outside of any sub declaration, this call returns failure. But please can .name also be a method on a callframe object?
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masak ash_: massive kudos on try.rakudo.org! it's wonderful! ash_++ 06:41
TimToady latest addition: rosettacode.org/wiki/Matrix_multipl...ion#Perl_6 06:45
masak There's no Rakudo 2010.09
TimToady tried to write it entirely without an @p, but, something kept flattening my inner arrays
masak unless you're calling from the future :)
TimToady there's no Rakudo Star in 09
there's a Rakudo 06:46
masak there is?
did I miss the release?
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TimToady usually called HEAD 06:46
sorear TimToady: I call it a test case. It could be put into t/spec to enforce or reject my interpretation
masak we count differently, then.
sorear The *use* case is to simplify the compiler
TimToady I've been known to have my little idiosyncracies
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masak anyway, nice code. 06:47
TimToady it was mostly to make the P5 code look bad. :)
masak looking forward to the @p-less variant :)
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masak "TimToady: aiming to make P5 code look bad since 2000" :) 06:48
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sorear right now niecza takes 1.6 ms per element on for @arr -> $x { } 06:51
I think this can be improved
masak rakudo: my @a=<a a a>;my @b=<b b b>;for (@a »,« @b) »,« @a -> $a, $b, $c {say "$a $b $c"} 06:56
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Sorry, sides are of uneven length and not dwimmy.␤ in 'hyper' at line 179:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
masak rakudo: my @a=<a a a>;my @b=<b b b>;for (@a >>,<< @b) >>,<< @a -> $a, $b, $c {say "$a $b $c"}
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Sorry, sides are of uneven length and not dwimmy.␤ in 'hyper' at line 179:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
masak <TimToady> that looks like a bug 06:57
masak submits rakudobug
moritz_ doesn't understandwhy 06:59
@a »,« @b return a list that's twice as long as @a
so the error message is fine
masak there's no trickery with Parcels going on, then? 07:00
moritz_ without the parens, one could argue about list associativity
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masak if there's list associativity, the parens shouldn't matter... 07:02
TimToady there's no list context for @a »,« @b, so it should produce a structure of parcels of the same length
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TimToady hyperops aren't listy like zips 07:02
sorear spot the error in the following definition of map, which I just wrote for niecza 07:04
method map($f) { gather for @(self) { take $f($_) } }
masak sorear: doesn't handle blocks with exotic signatures? 07:06
sorear masak: It's much simpler than that.
masak gives up 07:09
tylercurtis Is your for written in terms of map?
tylercurtis really doubts that's it.
sorear bingo
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sorear for is (modulo void-context cheats) simply .map 07:10
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masak could we rename perl6/specs to perl6/spec before it's too late? :/ 07:17
TimToady a specification generally consists of many specifications; I don't care one way or the other 07:19
I do think the documents in question specify more than one thing 07:20
masak I wouldn't have mentioned it again, except I saw in the backlog that pmichaud also kept expecting it to be 'spec'. 07:21
so the tally thus far is some people who don't care either way, and two people who want it to be 'spec'. 07:23
sorear count me in don't care
masak some + 1 = some :)
sorear mumbles something about a heap paradox 07:24
masak not really a paradox; heap access will just get slower with each addition :P
moritz_ phenny: ask colomon could you maybe change github.com/colomon/List-Utils/blob/...ils.pm#L57 to do a ~~ Numeric test instead? or !~~ Positional maybe? 07:26
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when colomon is around.
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masak [backlog] "The quick brown cow jumped over the lazy moon" 07:36
moritz_ rakudo: my %h; %h.push: "The quick brown cow jumped over the lazy moon".comb.classify({$_}); say %h.elems 07:38
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«24␤»
sorear (1,(2,(3,4),5),6).join("|") ==> 6|2|3|4|5|1 07:39
masak moritz_: that one counts spaces as well, though. 07:40
moritz_ rakudo: say "The quick brown cow jumped over the lazy moon".comb(/\w/).classify({.lc}).elems 07:47
TimToady rakudo: Set.new("The quick brown cow jumped over the lazy moon".comb(/\w/)).elems
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«22␤»
rakudo 859f2d: ( no output )
TimToady rakudo: say Set.new("The quick brown cow jumped over the lazy moon".lc.comb(/\w/)).elems 07:49
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«22␤»
masak &
TimToady oddly, + doesn't work on a Set 07:50
sorear Any reason not to delete 'perlsix'? 07:55
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dalek ecza: e093ea4 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
Bring iterator API a little closer to Rakudo

Removes 40 lines of code and doubles array iteration speed...		 07:59
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moritz_ sorear: deleting works for me 08:12
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mathw sorear: doubling array iteration speed and removing 40 lines of code? Very nice :) 08:14
sjohnson haha 08:17
cute sentence
jnthn morning, #perl6 08:23
sorear done
hello jnthn 08:24
moritz_ \o 08:25
jnthn masak: The invocant being counted amongst the positional parameters is _not_ a Parrot idiosyncracy. In fact, I've argued against Parrot changing away from it being that in the past. It really is - in a Perl 6 sense - the first positional argument in the Capture. There's nothing special about the invocant really once we've decided what we're going to dispatch to. 08:29
sorear Didn't the invocant used to be magical in Parrot?
moritz_ www.morungos.com/node/90 nicea read, and encouraging for us :-)
jnthn sorear: Maybe way back. 08:30
sorear: Well, they do flag it a bit differently now but in a thankfully ignorable way.
The important thing is that it's not passed out of band.
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sorear is STILL finding bugs in the low-level code generator 08:36
tylercurtis rakudo: sub forever (*&body) { loop { body; } }; forever { last if rand < .5 }; say "Yay for functions as control structures." 08:38
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Yay for functions as control structures.␤»
moritz_ and last() magically works in the custom loop construct! 08:39
jnthn ....what's the * in the signature there? 08:40
sorear slurpy block 08:41
moritz_ S06 has some weird magic description of slurpy blocks
which is NYI, so it probably has no effect atm
jnthn I didn't realize they were implemented in Rakudo
Ah, OK
It silently...works. :-)
sorear I think that part of the spec is a fossil from before Block became a first-class value 08:42
tylercurtis Good to know that slurpy blocks are NYI.
masak jnthn: (invocant being a positional) nod, and agree, and such. I'm not proposing any change there. I'm arguing for some recognition in the error message that one of the positionals is kinda special, and that the user might not immediately think of it as a positional. 08:44
sorear The description of slurpy blocks has not been touched in the two years of git history 08:46
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sorear Where did the synopses live before 68d062f ? 08:47
08:47 dju left
sorear (a 20,615 line insert commit by pmichaud) 08:47
moritz_ somewhere on svn.perl.org
sorear: note that the specs repo has history going back to 2006, but the files were renamed once 08:48
sorear yes 08:49
I chased through those
moritz_ our Int multi P5emul::Str::p5chomp ( Str *@strings = ($+_) is rw )
sorear also in late 2009 lwall accidentally deleted S06 and S12
moritz_ slightly amused
dalek ecza: 8df43ce | sorear++ | / (3 files):
Use low-level code for List!fill

4x speed on iteration microbenchmark, down to 260 us/iter
moritz_ who needs functions or objects anyway? :-) 08:50
masak those specifications were never among the stable ones anyway. oh wait.
jnthn hehe 08:51
masak: If you can think of a good way to be clearer, I'm willing to take/implement suggestions.
masak jnthn: I'll brainstorm a bit with myself and gist back to you. :)
jnthn :P 08:52
sorear quadrupling the speed of iterators only speeds up the parser benchmark by ~4%, time to move on
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mathw sorear: it's still good! 08:58
masak jnthn: something like this: gist.github.com/571607
moritz_ masak: I find that slightly ugly 09:01
masak fair enough.
I'm not entirely satisfied with it myself.
moritz_ masak: I'd rather have a parenthetical remmark (invocants are included in the counts) or so
s/counts/numbers/
masak as in my second proposal. 09:02
I'm fine with that. it should only show up for methods, of course.
moritz_ right 09:03
masak: then make it 'the invocant*s* included'
that way it's clear that it applies to both 09:04
jnthn "methods" 09:05
masak agreed.
jnthn masak: I think it'd show up where there's a parameter marked as being an invocant
masak: I don't think if someone did .^add_method(-> $x, $y, $z { ... }) we'd be able to tell 'em much. 09:06
Though it wasn't declared as an invocant here
*there
So it's fine I guess
masak yes, that's way out in doctor-it-hurts-when-I-do-this land. 09:07
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tadzik oh hai 09:19
masak \o
tadzik masak: I'm closer to the feather account :) 09:20
Juerd Yea, sorry about not having noticed your mail :)
tadzik no worries, happens :)
Juerd I'm ambivalent about your patience
It's laudable that you haven't nagged about it. On the other hand, if you had, you would have had the account already :D
tadzik I nagged once :) 09:21
Juerd Oh, you did?
tadzik yeah, some day
Juerd Oh, er. Sorry then.
Anyway, what username do you want?
"tadzik"?
tadzik doesn't matter :) I still fail to compile "ambivalent" in your sentence though :)
Juerd: tjs would be nice, as I mailed
(few minutes ago) 09:22
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sorear if you had announced your desire openly you would have gotten it in a couple minutes 09:22
Juerd Ambivalence is having two values.
sorear feather is a "community administered" server
tadzik yeah, so I don't get it :)
Juerd sorear: Oh, no, new accounts go through me :)
jnthn So 1|2 is an ambivalent junction? :-)
sorear Juerd: oh, good thing I never found out
moritz_ tadzik: "community administered" means "know whom to nag" :-) 09:23
tadzik . o O ( decentralized nagging )
Juerd sorear: It's okay if other people do create the accounts, as long as I do receive the official mail requesting it, with all info in it.
sorear: And that's where things go wrong. Very few requests contain sufficient information at once :) 09:24
I need (1) an explicit request for an account, in a sentence, (2) the real name of the applicant (or something that looks like one) (3) the preferred username
And by email, not irc :) 09:25
tadzik well, I didn't see any specs for that, I was just told "poke Juerd" :) 09:26
sorear 14 people from irc have root on feather1
Juerd: where can I find the rest of the rules like "all account creation through Juerd"?
Juerd sorear: More. Two know the actual root password :)
sorear: In the original mail :)
sorear: I'm beginning to become aware that this isn't the most obvious place. 09:27
sorear on most computers I've been at, people who know the root pw tend to wind up in sudoers anyway
sorear hates passwords for most stuff 09:28
machine/machine stuff
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Juerd The two other people who know the root password don't have accounts themselves 09:29
tylercurtis Good night, #perl6. Hopefully, tomorrow, I'll write the barest beginnings of a setting for Bennu. Then work on compiling the bootstrappy ugliness. Once that's done, I can work on actually compiling actual Perl 6 code! So, maybe "say 1;" will work before next weekend. :)
Juerd It's interesting to see, in /etc/shadow, the jump from $1$ style crypt to $6$ 09:30
The old lines fit on a single screen line
For the new ones, the hash itself is 98 characters 09:31
sorear $6$ is what, SHA-256? 09:32
tylercurtis Juerd: ooc, how readily do you give feather accounts?
Juerd sorear: 512 apparently 09:33
sorear wonders how many people here remember crypt()
Juerd sorear: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypt_(Unix)#...shacrypt-4
tylercurtis: What does readily mean, in this context?
sorear Juerd: wait... I don't think I ever sent you any mail
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Juerd sorear: You're not in my feather administration either. What the... 09:34
sorear "my feather administration"?
moritz_ I might have given sorear access to feather2, but I'm sure I didn't for feather1 09:35
tadzik no weechat on feather :(
Juerd sorear: A list of all accounts that I created, with references to the mails
sorear: Could you please send me the mail anyway?
moritz_ Warning: Permanently added the RSA host key for IP address '2a02:2308:10::f:1' to the list of known hosts.
sorear Juerd: sure, what do you need
Juerd moritz_: Nice, isn't it? 09:36
moritz_ \o/
Juerd++
Juerd sorear: See timestamp x:24
moritz_: Feather is the second server in our network to get ipv6
moritz_ tadzik: installing weechat now...
sorear juerd@ feather-minus-feather?
tadzik moritz_++
Juerd sorear: [email@hidden.address]
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Juerd (Normally, finding my email address is left as an exercise, but since people find [email@hidden.address] and feather mail has been broken for ages, that doesn't work anymore.) 09:37
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sorear sent 09:39
tylercurtis Juerd: Better phrased, I was asking essentially whether you give accounts to anyone hacking on Perl6-related things who asks or are more selective. 09:40
daxim ##### voodoo
Juerd tylercurtis: No, that's exactly the single criterion
sorear I'm pretty sure I got root on feather1 after complaining about dalek being down one too many times
Juerd sorear: Thanks for the mail
sorear: Your account has its password disabled. Did you do that? :) 09:41
I don't usually disable passwords for new accounts
sorear Yes
Juerd In fact, it's the only password-disabled account on feather, if you don't count system accounts :) 09:42
tylercurtis Juerd: good to know if I convince myself I have any reason to ask for one.
Anyway, good night, #perl6. Really, this time. 09:43
Juerd tylercurtis: Wanting to try rakudo for a hello world is a good reason.
Good night :)
sorear Juerd: The flip side of this is that I have the only NOPASSWD: unrestricted root sudo
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Juerd sorear: I'm not convinced that's good. 09:44
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Juerd sorear: I don't really care on feather, but on production machines I disallow the practice. 09:44
moritz_ at a first glance, ssh keys + NOPASSWD seems more secure to me than password + password sudo 09:46
Juerd There's no control over whether a user encrypts their keys, and practices good security on their system regarding key agents (e.g. forwarding with gnome keyring's ssh agent means remote servers can do silently allowed automated logins)
And this could mean that you can get from nothing to root without any password.
moritz_ that's true
Juerd On most servers I require a key for logins, and have disabled password logins, and effectively the user password is used only for sudo. 09:47
moritz_ .Unable to safely resolve dependencies, try running with --full-resolver. # wow, that never happened to me before
sorear That's what I would have preferred but couldn't find the knob
Juerd On feather, there's also e-mail and the protected part of the webserver, that you can't use anymore without your password.
moritz_ that's aptitude output on feather1
Juerd But feather doesn't have pop3/imap anymore anyway 09:48
Nobody was using it :)
sorear Or are you talking about the systemwide knob in /etc/sshd.conf
Juerd moritz_: Try apt-get instead of aptitude when aptitude fails, and vice versa :)
sorear: I usually enforce it system wide, yes. 09:49
sorear /etc/ssh/sshd_config rather
Juerd sorear: I'm not sure if users can disable password logins for themselves, without disabling their passwords altogether.
moritz_ Juerd: I usually do, it's nice to have the choice :-)
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moritz_ but it does work with --full-resolver (at least for now) 09:49
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moritz_ (and I prefer aptitude, because it logs its actions 09:49
sorear this would be easier if the CPS trampoline didn't thoroughly confuse mono's profiler 09:53
moritz_ I can see how that could happen :-) 09:59
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jnthn Makes me glad I didn't do any CPS stuff in 6model. :-) 10:09
(Don't care too much about modelling control flow at the moment, though, so I can get away with it.)
sorear aye
sorear needs a metamodel overhaul soon 10:10
masak .oO( metasorear object? ) 10:11
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sorear I'll probably save ~25% on parser benchmark runtime by avoiding runtime name lookups for fields 10:12
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aCiD2 Does Rakudo have any support for continuations/call-with-cc type stuff? 10:58
From what I gather Perl 6 should have it, I wondered if there's anything concrete to play with though 10:59
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masak aCiD2: have you tried the gather contruct? 10:59
aCiD2 I have used that, yea 11:00
masak I think that's the closest you can get in Rakudo at present.
aCiD2 I don't really know what I want to do with continuations yet, so maybe I'm asaking a bad question :)
masak not at all.
aCiD2 I felt like having a play in the next few evenings. maybe a seaside ish thing, as that's my biggest desire of them
masak continuations aren't really exposed in Perl 6, though.
I've certainly wished that they were at times. 11:01
aCiD2 that's a shame
masak it's also a design decision.
aCiD2 I was about to ask if it was. So there will never be the "simplicity" (I use that term cautiously on the topic of continuations :)) of call-with-current-continuation in Scheme 11:02
masak well, theoretically someone might provide a module to give you first-class continuations.
aCiD2 but it's never going to part of the language as core 11:05
(unless the module got picked up into core, that is)
masak no, but you're not likely to suffer from the distinction.
unless 'use SomeModule' is hurtful to you somehow.
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masak (which might well be, if you're behind a corporate firewall etc) 11:06
aCiD2 in essence no, but that's what they said with perl 5. And now all my modules have to have a stack of use statements before I'm happy with the language ;)
masak right. that's where the design decisions come in. are continuations core enough? 11:07
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mathw That's probably a matter of opinion 11:13
I've never programmed with continuations, but I'm aware they can enable some really cool stuff, but what would be the tradeoff for having them in core, and all that
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masak the tradeoff for having them in core would be that you can only faithfully implement Perl 6 on VMs with continuations. 11:14
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mathw mmm 11:16
jnthn (or you have to do your own CPS atop of that) 11:17
But yes, it's not a good burden to put on implementors.
mathw feels a "Perl 6 is hard enough already" coming along 11:18
jnthn :P
Well. It kinda is. :P
masak gather postulates, if not full-blown CPS, then at least green threads of some sort.
rhebus good afternoon 11:20
mathw Hi rhebus 11:21
masak rhebus! \o/
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rhebus o/ 11:21
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rhebus i'm thinking of making 99-problems into a dedicated website 11:23
i think it would be a nice perl6 tutorial 11:24
which we could point people to for a crash course
masak misses =<> a little
rhebus i can't promise any action this month though, need to finish my PhD
masak rhebus: by all means! :) 11:25
rhebus :)
mathw finishing a PhD
I find that a very alien concept
rhebus i don't recommend it
mathw mine imploded after about 18 months
rhebus mine ought to have done by all rights
but inertia carried me through :)
mathw some of the lecturers are still missing
rhebus what was your phd in, criminology? :O 11:26
mathw lol
dependently typed functional programming
but I got lost in an algorithm which indicates failure by not returning
masak awww.
mathw been running it for four years and it's not returned yet 11:27
rhebus that's... helpful
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masak to be fair, one can't know these things beforehand :) 11:27
rhebus one ought to have an idea before one starts though :)
masak there's a proof somewhere...
mathw &
rhebus I discovered recently that the DeathStation 9000 solves the halting problem
C++0x compilers are allowed to assume a loop with no extrenally-visible behaviour terminates. which means an infinite loop with no externally visible behaviour invokes undefined behaviour. which means that you can measure if an algorithm terminates by running it on a DS9K and measuring if demons fly out of your nose 11:29
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gfldex rakudo: my $i = 1; $i = $i++; say $i; 11:34
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤» 11:35
masak yapsi: my $i = 1; $i = $i++; say $i;
p6eval yapsi: ( no output )
masak :/
gfldex any demons? 11:36
masak should there be?
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rhebus does perl6 have a ds9k-compliant implementation? 11:36
gfldex only if p6eval is running in a ds9k
masak it's imperative programming, not maths. doing $i = $i++ doesn't imply an infinite loop.
rhebus $i = $i++ is undefined behaviour in many languages, though I don't know about perl 6 11:37
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rhebus because it's not defined whether the assignment to $i or the increment of $i takes place first 11:37
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masak S03:5062 11:38
hm, that's not extremely pertinent. 11:39
anyway, I'm pretty sure the semantics of $i = $i++ is nailed down in Perl 6. 11:40
moritz_ is pretty sure too
rhebus the section on Sequence points in S03 doesn't nail it down 11:41
moritz_ $i++ is do { my $tmp = $i; $i.=succ; $tmp}
rhebus in fact it's pretty explicit under autoincrement precedence: "Also as in C, multiple references to a single mutating object in the same expression may result in undefined behavior unless some explicit sequencing operator is interposed. See "Sequence points"." 11:42
so unless = provides a sequence point, that nails $i = $i++ as undefined
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masak I disagree. 11:43
all that's needed is for the rhs to be fully evaluated before the assignment is made.
moritz_ is pretty sure that item assignment should be a sequence point
masak and that falls out from precedence.
rhebus masak: the argument in C is that when i++ is evaluated, the value is guaranteed to be the current value of i, but i is only guaranteed to be incremented "soon" (ie before the next sequence point) 11:45
so even if i++ is fully evaluated, i may not yet be incremented
masak rhebus: what moritz_ said about $i++ under the hood.
rhebus that might be how it's implemented, but it's not what the spec says.
masak you're right. 11:46
rhebus in particular, there'd be no point in the warning in the spec if moritz_'s definition were universal
I am a C language lawyer, this is how I've been trained to think
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rhebus I don't like relying on the fact that perl's GC is reference-counted, because one of the perldocs explicitly says it may change at a later date. Even though it never will. 11:47
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moritz_ thinks that Perl should avoid the pitfalls of undefined behavior wherever possible 11:51
rhebus i think it's somewhat unavoidable with eg junctions
but totally avoidable with $i = $i++
masak it's designed into junctions. don't use them if you want sequence points :)
moritz_ for example in p5, the 'my $x = 1 if 0;' thing is explicitly undefined, and there are questions about it on perlmonks with a frightening regularity 11:52
avar But then you have to define: $i = $i++ + ++$i;
rhebus avar++
i'm not sure how much examples like $i = $i++ or my $x = 1 if 0; matter, they only seem to show up in discussions about sequence poitns 11:53
moritz_ junctions have very clear rules about what is defined, and where the compiler has room for optimizations
rhebus more dangerous are $a +^= $b +^= $a +^= $b and @a[$i] = $i++
avar It matters in so far that you can optimize things if you leave it undefined.
E.g. what do you do with a tied variable $foo on say "$foo$foo" ?
(there's a discussion about that on perl5-porters) 11:54
rhebus avar: what's the thread title?
avar "[perl #76438] peephole optimiser could prune more dead code"
Anyway, going with C blindly is also bad, there's a lot of stuff that's undefined in C that was done to appease certain platforms back in the 80s, those platforms are now dead and nobody cares. 11:55
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rhebus avar: i couldn't agree more 11:55
avar E.g. NULL not being 0 in all cases, which means you can't memset() memory to 0 and be guaranteed null pointers
But everyone does it these days because in practice it works unless you dust of some 80's hardware 11:56
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avar E.g. git does that, and hasn't had complaints 11:57
rhebus so the question is, what is important enough to leave undefined, and what is important enough to leave defined? 11:58
smash hello everyone 11:59
rhebus o/
avar As someone who's implemented sequence points in a C compiler, it probably still matters on modern hardware.
Because you can avoid doing another register lookup for $i 12:00
But maybe it doesn't matter enough given all the other bloat in perl6 :)
rhebus :) 12:01
masak (i) let it be up to implementations to experiment/optimize (ii) discourage users from writing code that is sequence-pointly ambiguous, just 'cus it's a good idea anyway
rhebus i think Java defined order-of-evaluation of terms to avoid some of these problems
masak: does that mean we should spec warnings for sequence point violations? :/ 12:02
masak no.
it means that when users write code like that, we tell them why it's bad.
moritz_ that feels more like the task of a lint utility
masak it's more of a 'community-level warning' :)
rhebus heh 12:03
masak aye, or lint.
rhebus or some P6BP book
avar (i) implies undefined 12:04
moritz_ we started a repo with "well thought-out practices"
afaict it contains one rule so far :-)
rhebus avar: it only implies implementation-defined
"don't be stupid"
moritz_ but I'm happy with it containing one good rule, instead of many not-so-sound ones
rhebus or is it "don't be clever"? 12:05
moritz_ rhebus: no, much more concrete
"use whitespace around infix operators"
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rhebus yes that seems reasonable 12:05
moritz_ I wonder if should add a second rule
"don't base your design on junctions"
masak :D
moritz_ I'm serious
masak "don't use junctions if you expect them to be sets" 12:06
moritz_ junctions are nice, but beginners overuse them drastically
masak moritz_: agreed.
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masak I only use junctions very very locally. 12:07
I never store them in variables.
moritz_ I sometimes bind them in signatures
for things that expect a smartmatcher
masak hm, yes. 12:08
rhebus i haven't learned junctions yet
moritz_ that's ok, they aren't very central to Perl 6 12:09
masak well, they're nice in conditionals.
if $a == 3 | 4 | 5
but that's basically all you need to know about them :)
moritz_ unless you start implementing them :-) 12:10
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rhebus rakudo: say (3|4|5*2).perl 12:11
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«any(3, 4, 10)␤»
rhebus rakudo: say ((3|4|5)*2).perl
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«any(6, 8, 10)␤»
rhebus rakudo: say ((3&4|5)*2).perl 12:13
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«any(all(6, 8), 10)␤»
rhebus rakudo: say ((3|4&5)*2).perl
takadonet morning all
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«any(6, all(8, 10))␤»
rhebus afternoon takadonet
moritz_ (to me, the interesting thing was not that the examples above worked, but how they worked) 12:16
rhebus moritz_: in terms of the types and objects generated, or more gritty implementation details than that? 12:17
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moritz_ rhebus: in terms of how the (1 | 2) + 3 is re-evaluated as (1 + 3| 2+3) 12:19
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moritz_ and that it works for user-defined functions too 12:19
rakudo: sub square($x) { $x * $x }; say square(1|2|3|4)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«any(1, 4, 9, 16)␤» 12:20
rhebus rakudo: say "yes" if 3.all( * > 0, * < 10)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 3 but expected 1␤ in 'Any::all' at line 1405:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/wBfx8x3RX5␤»
rhebus is there a way to have a junction of lambdas like that? 12:21
moritz_ rakudo: say "yes" if all( * > 0, * < 10).(3) 12:22
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«yes␤»
moritz_ you need to call your lambdas, too :-)
rhebus is the dot necessary?
moritz_ no 12:23
rhebus rakudo: say "yes" if all( * > 0, * < 10)(3)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«yes␤»
moritz_ but I like it, because it makes things clearer to me
rhebus rakudo: say "yes" if 3.&all( * > 0, * < 10)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«yes␤»
rhebus moritz_: agreed
moritz_ parens can easily be mistaken for grouping
rhebus wow, perl 6 just does what i mean sometimes 12:24
moritz_ when I use subscripting on a longer expression (and not just a variable) I also often use .[1] instead of just [1]
shortcircuit TimToady: Perl6 has a large number of operators that I'm not familiar with, even with my familiarity with Perl. For example, I don't recognize ^@. Specific examples behind, it might be worthwhile documenting P6 examples as what differentiates them in operators, syntax and flow from P5 examples.
moritz_ rakudo: say (^5).perl 12:25
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0..^5␤»
moritz_ rakudo: .say for ^5
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤»
rhebus rakudo: say (^5).WHAT 12:28
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Range()␤»
rhebus why does .WHAT always put brackets after a type?
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rhebus rakudo: my @a of Int = (1,2,3); say @a.WHAT 12:29
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«()␤»
rhebus huh
masak submits rakudobug
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masak rhebus: in order to distinguish them as stringified type objects, I think. 12:29
rhebus is it possible that they might be parameterised? eg Array(Int)
rakudo: my @a of Int = (1,2,3); say @a.perl 12:30
masak probably, but not with that syntax.
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3]␤»
masak it's "Array of Int" something.
rhebus rakudo: my @a = (1,2,3); say @a.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Array()␤»
rhebus masak++ # bug report 12:34
masak :)
rhebus: you're new here :)
rhebus i don't know what's a bug or not yet
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rhebus and what's expected but surprising (to me) behaviour 12:35
moritz_ rakudo: my Int @a; @a[0] = 2; say @a.of
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤ in 'at_pos' at line 1␤ in 'at_pos' at line 7:CORE.setting␤ in 'Any::postcircumfix:<[ ]>' at line 1706:CORE.setting␤ in 'at_pos' at line 5:CORE.setting␤ in 'at_pos' at line 7:CORE.setting␤ in 'Any::postcircumfix:<[ ]>' at line
..1706:CORE.settin…
masak hm.
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masak is that one in RT? 12:35
moritz_ rakudo: my Int @a; say @a.of
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
moritz_ masak: there's one for @a.push
two actually
masak ok. sameish.
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masak rhebus: I'll soon be hitting my 1000th rakudobug. also, see use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40490 12:36
moritz_ masak: you should crawl and save your use.perl.org journal entries 12:37
masak moritz_: I'm on it.
moritz_: I registered a new blog domain today.
moritz_ fwiw, I still have perlblog.org, and not in use 12:38
although I promised diakopter++ to put it to good use
masak I have a few plans on my own. :) my hand was forced by the use.perl.org shutdown, but that's probably good. 12:39
rhebus wow, i've only just worked out that ␤ is symbol for newline. It's rendered as two tiny pixelblobs on my machine...
moritz_ .u ␤ 12:40
phenny U+2424 SYMBOL FOR NEWLINE (␤)
rhebus handy
.u «
phenny U+00AB LEFT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK («)
masak ✌ <--- handy
rhebus .u ✌
phenny U+270C VICTORY HAND (✌)
rhebus very droll
masak .u ⼿ 12:41
phenny U+2F3F KANGXI RADICAL HAND (⼿)
moritz_ .u ✓
phenny U+2713 CHECK MARK (✓)
masak a bit too radical for me...
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Sec I like U+25EF, but can't paste it here. 12:43
moritz_ .u 2713
phenny U+2713 CHECK MARK (✓)
moritz_ .u 25ef
phenny U+25EF LARGE CIRCLE (◯)
Sec usefull for printing checklists :) 12:44
rhebus .u 1f4a9
phenny rhebus: Sorry, no results for '1f4a9'.
rhebus bah 12:45
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Sec ⠎⠑⠒ 12:46
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moritz_ would like a character that treats the next character as a combining mark, even if it isn't :-) 12:46
Sec moritz: that would so break every tool %-) 12:47
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Sec (Still, I like that idea) 12:47
rhebus how about a character pair which either ignores or repeats the intervening characters based on some condition? 12:49
cf [] in brainf*ck
lets make unicode turing-complete!
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Alias And of course, once we've reached THAT point, your registered birth name could be an infectious virus! 12:50
moritz_ lol
Alias Dear "while ( 1 ) { }EOF 12:51
rhebus hehe 12:54
my non-techie gf just came in and asked why i was chuckling. i tried to explain the joke... it wasn't worth it 12:55
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Alias I imagine she might get the more primitive "Bobby Tables" joke 12:57
rhebus the problem is, if something needs explaining, she will understand it, but she won't find it funny 12:58
Alias true
rhebus she should just learn programming and be done with it
Alias Also, the halting problem is extraordinarily boring
I only got a joke in at all back leveraging the drop table joke :)
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masak the people susceptible to halting-problem hacking are long since weeded out by natural selection :) 13:08
colomon rakudo: my @a = 1..5; say (+@a).WHAT; say _^H+@a
phenny colomon: 07:26Z <moritz_> ask colomon could you maybe change github.com/colomon/List-Utils/blob/...ils.pm#L57 to do a ~~ Numeric test instead? or !~~ Positional maybe?
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say _\x{7f}+@a"␤»
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colomon rakudo: my @a = 1..5; say (+@a).WHAT; say _+@a 13:09
rakudo: my @a = 1..5; say (+@a).WHAT; say +@a
13:09 Axius___ left
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Int()␤Could not find sub &_␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/c2o7p4OeFg␤» 13:09
rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Int()␤5␤»
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colomon is !~~ [] the same as !~~ Positional? 13:13
colomon completely fails to understand the List::Utils transpose code. 13:14
ash_ rakudo: say [].WHAT
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Array()␤»
colomon ah, is it specifically checking for the empty Array, then?
ash_ its looking to see if @list is not empty, since @list implied Positional 13:15
(the param @list)
i think
colomon that seems to make sense 13:16
ash_ rakudo: sub f(@a) { say ~@a }; f []; f (); f (1);
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«␤␤Nominal type check failed for parameter '@a'; expected Positional but got Int instead␤ in 'f' at line 22:/tmp/ZVO2iKsBV3␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/ZVO2iKsBV3␤»
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ash_ rakudo: sub f(@a) { say @a !~~ [] }; my @b = (); f([]); f(@b); f((1)); 13:17
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤0␤Nominal type check failed for parameter '@a'; expected Positional but got Int instead␤ in 'f' at line 22:/tmp/vYAQSJEumV␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/vYAQSJEumV␤»
ash_ rakudo: sub f(@a) { say @a !~~ [] }; my @b = (); f([]); f(@b); f([1]); 13:18
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤0␤1␤»
ash_ rakudo: say ?[]
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤»
ash_ rakudo: say ?[1]
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤»
ash_ i think you could just do that, instead of the smartmatch, maybe? /shrug 13:19
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ash_ rakudo: say [].^methods(:local) 13:20
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«at_possplicenewperldelete␤»
ash_ rakudo: say [].empty
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Method 'empty' not found for invocant of class 'Array'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/URHamiWfKP␤»
ash_ rakudo: say +[]
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤»
masak ash_: do you want to empty the array, or check if it's empty?
rakudo: say ?[]
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say so [] 13:21
rakudo: say so [0]
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤»
rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤»
ash_ in List::Utils uses @list !~~ [] to check for an empty list, i was thinking you could make that shorter
rakudo: say ?[1], +[1], ?[], +[] # + or ? seem to do the trick too, 13:22
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1100␤»
masak !@list checks for emptiness.
ash_ ah 13:23
thats easy too
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masak it's the opposite of ?@list, which checks for non-emptiness :) 13:23
of course, nothing is set in stone, and you're permitted to write @list == 0 if you want to emphasize the "no elements" bit for some reason. 13:24
moritz_ or not @a.elems
PerlJam finds it hard to believe that List::Utils uses @list !~~ [] 13:25
ash_ have sockets worked in rakudo yet?
github.com/colomon/List-Utils/blob/...ils.pm#L55 13:26
smash PerlJam: why ?
ash_ it makes sense, just trying to golf it :P
PerlJam smash: because that seems crazy in light of simpler mechanisms :) 13:27
moritz_ was more suprirsed about the ~~ Int
PerlJam I mean, who would think of that first rather than the obvious "array in scalar context" meme?
moritz_ you can simply write while @list { ... } 13:28
smash PerlJam: maybe there is some obscure reason
moritz_ but @list[0].WHAT.perl ~~ 'Int' is truely evil
ash_ timtowtdi ?
moritz_ it means it only works for ints, not for other numbers or scalars 13:29
smash moritz_: feel free to rewrite it
the way you want
moritz_ smash: I proposed !~~ Positional, but haven't got around to test it yet
ash_ smash: was there a reason to do ~~ 'Int' ? 13:30
masak smash: generally, if you're doing .WHAT for non-debugging things, you're on the wrong track.
ash_ i am sure there was, i just don't think i understand it
masak smash: the all-caps in .WHAT means "whoa! magic!"
ash_ masak: unless your doing meta programming? maybe? probably not, that still seems bad
masak ash_: .WHAT is not the best mechanism for that either... 13:31
ash_ ya, that seems like an odd way of doing things
masak ash_: here it's used for type checking. just do ~~ Type for that.
moritz_ well, smash++ did the hard parts: the algorithm
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moritz_ now we can fret over the details 13:32
masak indeed. smash++
colomon I've tested ~~ Numeric here, and it works.
just haven't had a chance to push it yet.
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ash_ is there a way to get a list of classes defined in rakudo? (introspection into world/namespace?) 13:40
rakudo: say ::.^methods # 13:41
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p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!␤» 13:41
masak submits rakudobug
interesting error.
ash_ lol, i didn't expect it to work, but thats not what i expected at all
masak rakudo: say ::.^foo
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!␤» 13:42
ash_ rakudo: say ::.say
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!␤»
masak rakudo: say +::
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!␤»
masak rakudo: say ::
ash_ rakudo: say ::
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!␤»
masak rakudo: ::
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!␤»
masak heh.
ash_ well, thats shorter :P 13:43
masak rakudo: :
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near ":"␤»
ash_ rakudo: say GLOBAL.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &GLOBAL␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/BT2ce1Nu5G␤»
ash_ rakudo: say GLOBAL::say.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Can not find sub GLOBAL::say␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
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ash_ i suppose, i am just curious if you can say, list the subs in a namespace, or list the classes in a namespace, that might be useful 13:45
colomon smash: just added you to the List::Utils committers. 13:47
masak ash_: there are three occurrences of the word 'Stash' in the spec. see those. :/
moritz_ rakudo: my sub foo { }; say callframe().my.keys 13:48
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«__CANDIDATE_LIST__$!$MAIN&foo$/$_␤»
moritz_ you get the &foo from the current scope 13:49
ash_ what about other scopes? like say i wanted to get a list of the classes defined in the Foo namespace?
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moritz_ not sure 13:49
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pmichaud GOOD MORNING, #PERL6 13:51
oop
s
ash_ rakudo: module F { my sub foo { }; our sub inspect { callframe }; }; say F::inspect;
pmichaud (caps lock was on?)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«CallFrame()<0x493f780>␤»
ash_ rakudo: module F { my sub foo { }; our sub inspect { callframe }; }; say F::inspect.my; 13:52
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«$! 17$MAIN 8$/ 15$_ 13__CANDIDATE_LIST__ 1␤»
ash_ rakudo: module F { my sub foo { }; our sub inspect { callframe }; }; say F::inspect.my.keys;
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«$/$___CANDIDATE_LIST__$!$MAIN␤»
ash_ interesting, it didn't show foo
moritz_ because foo is the outer lexpad 13:53
and not in the inspect sub
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smash colomon: thank you, i will delete my List::Utils fork then 14:02
colomon smash: far easier to give you a commit bit than to merge in your changes by hand. ;) 14:03
masak GOOD MORNING, PMICHAUD :) 14:04
ash_ my capslock doesn't work :-( (its remapped to ctrl)
masak ditto.
but without the sad smiley :) 14:05
ash_ BUT I CANT TALK LIKE THIS (as easily)
lol, me on other keyboards is funny, i forget caps locks isn't ctrl by default 14:06
smash colomon: fair enough :)
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rhebus when the going gets tough, the tough get their PINKIE FINGERS OUT 14:09
pmichaud 12:37 <moritz_> masak: you should crawl and save your use.perl.org journal entries 14:10
is that a simple wget, or is anyone doing something a bit fancier?
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masak I'll either base my crawler on wget, or on miyagawa++'s Web::Scraper. 14:12
either way, Perl 5.
pmichaud I guess we lose the comments, or are you planning to scrape those as well? 14:13
masak the latter.
though my new blog won't have hierarchical comments, so I'll have to add "In response to @3"-type annotations. 14:14
actually, come to think of it, Web::Scraper is probably a bad fit for this task. I've only been able to get individual values out of it; here I'll need whole DOM subtrees.
maybe some custom TreeBuilder solution will do the trick. 14:15
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moritz_ has now mirrored 132M from use.perl.org with a dumb wget -m 15:23
masak ooh
moritz_ but only 30 journal entries from masak++ so far 15:24
masak: do you happen to know how many you wrote
masak I think I can find out.
I'm not sure you'll get all comments that way, by the way.
moritz_ I know
masak I wrote 192 entries. 15:25
sorry no, 191 :)
correction, 190 :)
moritz_ thanks 15:26
masak (I grepped the "Delete/Edit Entries" page for "@" characters, and there were two false positives.
)
moritz_ has 140 entries on the perlgeek.de blog 15:27
I guess the difference is about 2x November :-) 15:28
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masak sounds about right :) 15:29
moritz_: looking at the list of posts made me realize how easy it'd be to just turn that list into 190 wget invocations. two perl one-liners later, I have all my posts saved. \o/ 15:43
perl++
bbkr rakudo: callframe.perl # known_and_NYI or should I report it as TODO? in STD this is valid syntax.
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'ParrotInterpreter'␤ in <anon> at line 1237:CORE.setting␤ in 'Any::join' at line 1␤ in 'Mu::attribs' at line 1238:CORE.setting␤ in 'Mu::perl' at line 1242:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/cb8i19zxRz␤»
pmichaud bbkr: it's TODO 15:44
masak pmichaud: it might be nice to know that all that kept me from using the perl6 executable in this case was the lack of -p and -n.
pmichaud: I really miss those. :/
bbkr pmichaud: but is it already in RT queue? I cannot find it.
pmichaud bbkr: and I'm not sure that callframe will have a .perl method anyway 15:45
at least, not something that gives you a complete serialization of the current call state.
bbkr pmichaud: I can imagine how hard to implement this would be. but if not - then still error message is LTA. 15:47
pmichaud why?
it's exactly correct. :)
it's saying the .perl method doesn't exist. :)
masak :) 15:51
moritz_ adding a method perl() { fail "Can't serialize callframes" } would be pretty easy too 15:52
bbkr pmichaud: because "callframe.WHAT" is "CallFrame" not "ParrotInterpreter". and CallFrame has .perl method.
pmichaud then callframe.perl should work 15:53
does CallFrame have a perl method?
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moritz_ no 15:53
pmichaud I didn't think so. :)
bbkr: why do you claim CallFrame has a .perl method?
bbkr kudo: CallFrame.new.perl
rakudo: CallFrame.new.perl
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: ( no output )
pmichaud rakudo: say callframe.WHAT; 15:54
moritz_ the problem is that callframes can be asked for any information in caller frammes
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«CallFrame()␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say callframe.perl;
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'ParrotInterpreter'␤ in <anon> at line 1237:CORE.setting␤ in 'Any::join' at line 1␤ in 'Mu::attribs' at line 1238:CORE.setting␤ in 'Mu::perl' at line 1242:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/gpGpYkiUr1␤»
pmichaud okay, I'll accept that the error message is wrong here.
moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 3; sub f() { callframe() }; say f().callframe(1).my.<$x>
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in isa_pmc()␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in 'CallFrame::my' at line 7047:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/fbPsP822sC␤»
bbkr reports LTA message in callframe.perl 15:55
moritz_ rakudo: say callframe().callframe(1).my.perl
pmichaud rakudo: say CallFrame ~~ Any
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in isa_pmc()␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in 'CallFrame::my' at line 7047:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/62V8r4TT0p␤»
rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤»
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moritz_ that isa_pmc NPA is new, I think 15:56
ie it worked when I implemented it, back in the days :-)
masak submits rakudobug
pmichaud why are we getting a ParrotInterpret...... oh, I see the problem. 15:57
The problem isn't with CallFrame.perl, it's with CallFrame's $!inter.perl
$!interp.perl
the default .perl is attempting to call .perl on all of the attributes
moritz_ rakudo: say pir::getinterp__p() ~~ Mu 15:58
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say pir::getinterp__p() ~~ Any
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤»
masak now has all his use.perl.org comments saved locally, too
pmichaud so, we just need a .perl for CallFrame that does something more reasonable, like fail. :-)_
masak :)
moritz_ thinks his next blog post will be about the (non-)sense of "protected" attributes 15:59
masak moritz_: maybe you've been reading the same FQA entries as I have :) 16:00
moritz_: that link was great by the way. thanks.
moritz_ masak: actually I haven't read them all
masak me either. I hand-picked some topics of interest.
moritz_ masak: but I thought about the problem in-depth before after we had some discussions about it here in the channel
masak looking forward to the post. 16:02
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bbkr rakudo: my $f = pir::open__PSS("perl6", "w"); say so pir::istrue__IP($f); # this looks like serious security hole in "safe" mode :( 16:10
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤»
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bbkr open is blocked but pir::open not 16:10
moritz_ I know; it's a tradeoff 16:12
I could block all pir:: and Q:PIR{}
and would make lots of interesting demonstrations impossible
since you need a lot of insider knowledge to exploit it, I hope it happens sufficiently seldom 16:13
TimToady then perhaps you should delete that comment from the log :) 16:15
BTW, I added explanations to rosettacode.org/wiki/Matrix_multipl...ion#Perl_6 as suggested by shortcircuit++ 16:16
bbkr moritz_: I see that try.rakudo.org is protected :) and IRC bot is now indeed used only by P6 developers.
TimToady is planetsix.perl.org at all related to use.perl.org? 16:17
TimToady wonders if it will shut down too... 16:18
moritz_ TimToady: no; it just collects some use.perl.org journals
Juerd Is the past tense in "in Perl 5 this choice had to be made" intentional?
TimToady it's probably needlessly provocative, thanks 16:19
shortcircuit masak: If my experinces in #perl on FreeNode are any pointer, 'community-level' warnings may be a bad idea. :(
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Juerd TimToady: It's interesting how that leaves needed provocation as an option :) 16:19
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TimToady Juerd: Indeed, there's no way around it. People are often provoked by the suggestion that there might be a gospel that they haven't grokked yet, whether or not it's true. :) 16:25
shortcircuit TimToady: Nice explanation. Does the X operator work for more than two dimensions?
TimToady supposed to, but doesn't work in rakudo yet
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shortcircuit Is the order of processing of the first and second ranges specced, or might it vary from implementation to implementation (or run to run), given the same two ranges? 16:26
TimToady perl6: say (<a b> X <c d> X <e f>).perl
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<X>'. Available candidates are:␤:(Any $lhs, Any $rhs)␤␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/30Nzq_CQyn␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«(("a", "c", "e"), ("a", "c", "f"), ("a", "d", "e"), ("a", "d", "f"), ("b", "c", "e"), ("b", "c", "f"), ("b", "d", "e"), ("b", "d", "f"))␤»
TimToady specced
ash_ rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; say ^@a;
TimToady pugs does it right
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«012␤»
Juerd Oh my. [X] will kill computers! 16:27
ash_ alpha: say (<a b> X <c d> X <e f>).perl
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«["a", "c", "e", "a", "c", "f", "a", "d", "e", "a", "d", "f", "b", "c", "e", "b", "c", "f", "b", "d", "e", "b", "d", "f"]␤»
ash_ is that wrong?
Juerd Looks correct.
TimToady except for the lack of parcels
ash_ it flattened, but i think it produced the right thing
alpha could handle @ X @ X @, just hasn't made its way into master 16:28
shortcircuit Ok, last question. How does/will P6 work, as far as multithread? Could a for (or foreach) have its work dispatched to multiple cores (or, conceivably, other processing back-ends)? 16:29
TimToady certainly, any lazy list can be pipelined, and any explicitly parallel operator such as a hyperoperator or junction can be vectorized 16:30
shortcircuit Cool. :)
TimToady the operations may be done in any order as long as the structure of the results is preserved 16:31
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rhebus what's the usual extension for a perl 6 module? 16:40
ash_ .pm is what i have seen the most
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masak .pm6 is recognized as an extension too. I tend to use .pm 16:43
TimToady we use .pm6 where there might be Perl 5 modules in the same directory
such as in perl6/std
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rhebus rakudo: my %v = Set.new(<a b c>) 16:56
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤ in '!STORE' at line 5004:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/j0wKjmZefu␤»
rhebus shouldn't I be able to put a Set in a %var? 16:57
since Set does Associative?
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moritz_ yes, I think so 16:58
rhebus should I email rakudobug then? 16:59
(having first searched...)
moritz_ yes 17:00
masak is not sure how to make that work
[Coke] what would %v look like? a=>1 ... ? 17:01
rhebus a Set is a Hash of Bool
[Coke] so True instead of 1, then?
moritz_ right
TimToady well, KeySet is a Hash of Bool; a Set is an Enum of Bool 17:02
rhebus a KeySet is a KeyHash of Bool
TimToady yeah, that 17:03
rhebus and Enum does Associative too
TimToady rakudo: my %s := Set.new(<a b c>); say +%s 17:05
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Can't take numeric value for object of type Set␤ in 'Any::Numeric' at line 1386:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 7072:CORE.setting␤»
rhebus rakudo: my %s := Set.new(<a b c>); say %s{a}.perl 17:07
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &a␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/fgQ8k8_nBZ␤»
TimToady std: my %s := Set.new(<a b c>); say %s{a}.perl
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'a' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
rhebus i'm really confused
TimToady hmm, thought that had a better message
you want %s<a>
rhebus ooh
rakudo: my %s := Set.new(<a b c>); say %s<a>.perl
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤» 17:08
rhebus rakudo: my %s = Set.new(<a b c>); say %s<a>.perl
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤ in '!STORE' at line 5004:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/xIMeJ8zwEH␤»
moritz_ rakudo doesn't type-check on binding to % and @ variables yet
rakudo: my @a := 1; say @a.perl
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤»
rhebus so it works, but for the wrong reason? :)
TimToady you should be able to bind a Set to %s 17:09
moritz_ rhebus: right :-)
TimToady though I still think prefix:<+> oughta work on a Set
TimToady wonders what role .elems comes from 17:10
moritz_ Cool
TimToady does Elementary...
no, wait...
moritz_ or maybe both Positional and Associative
TimToady anyway, prefix:<+> should probably come for free any time .elems does 17:11
rhebus might there be Positionals/Associatives which don't do .elems? 17:12
TimToady rakudo: say Set.new(<a b c>) + 2
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Can't take numeric value for object of type Set␤ in 'Any::Numeric' at line 1386:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<+>' at line 7072:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/OMeqqLT5oE␤»
moritz_ rhebus: there might be some that die if you call .elems
TimToady a given type can always override 17:13
moritz_ rhebus: for example if you implement a network distributed key/value database, it might not be feasible to obtain the number of elements in there
rhebus yeah, that's the kinda thing I was thinking of
moritz_ but you might want to still do Positional
so you just write a method elems { fail "Don't know, sorry" } 17:14
TimToady network transparency is overrated :)
it should probably return "whatever" 17:15
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rhebus does Positional define elems then? 17:16
or declare or whatever the terminogoly is 17:17
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moritz_ still thinks both Positional and Associative should both define it 17:17
TimToady more like Iterable, maybe
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TimToady rakudo: say ?Set.new() 17:21
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ?Set.new('a')
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady rakudo: say Set.new('a').values 17:22
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤»
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TimToady rakudo: my %h = { a => 42 }; say +%h 17:23
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤»
colomon rakudo: my %h = { a => 42 }; say %h ~~ Iterable
TimToady rakudo: my %h := { a => 42 }; say +%h
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤» 17:24
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colomon Iterable does in fact define .elems in Rakudo... 17:24
rhebus rakudo: say Set.new('a').keys 17:25
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«a␤»
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TimToady rakudo: say set('a').keys 17:27
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &set␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/yFekzOQliZ␤»
17:27 PerlJam joined
TimToady sets don't have special brackets in math notation, do they... 17:29
tylercurtis { } 17:30
TimToady std: { :a :b :c }
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 114m␤»
rhebus S = { x | condition }
pmichaud currently Rakudo defines Set as 17:31
class Set does Associative {
which means it's neither Positional nor Iterable
TimToady rakudo: say Set.new(<a b c>)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Set()<0x25eb9e0>␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ~Set.new(<a b c>) 17:32
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Set()<0x493c380>␤»
TimToady should just be abc in some order
pmichaud the current implementation doesn't define Str(ingy) either
TimToady sets are supposed to enumerate to .keys
pmichaud I suspect the current implementation needs a significant refactor. 17:33
masak I'm willing to help with that. I wrote the original code.
pmichaud I should probably do the Hash refactoring first.
ash_ rakudo: :: # fun bug
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!␤»
TimToady rakudo: my %set := { :a, :b, :c }; say +%set 17:34
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p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«3␤» 17:34
pmichaud Rakudo's Set does define .Num, apparently.
TimToady course, that's really a KeySet
how come prefix + can't find it then?
pmichaud It did find it, didn't it? 17:35
pmichaud sees "OUTPUT«3>>"
TimToady that's not a Set, that's just a Hash
pmichaud oh.
right
TimToady I was cheating
and misdirecting with the name
pmichaud Set doesn't define .Numeric, apparently.
and it's not given as Cool.
TimToady sets probably want to be Any listy 17:36
<a b c>.set
pmichaud well, once Set does Positional or Iterable it'll likely get the listy things it's supposed to.
I'm guessing it should be Iterable 17:37
so it doesn't bind to @-params
TimToady it might be cool if we could unambiguously overload {} somehow to do sets right 17:38
{ :a :b :c } is almost there
ingy pmichaud: who is this Str(ingy) of which you speak?
my nemesis!
pmichaud ingy: he's got a lot of characters
TimToady that's the strange ingy; you're the charmed ingy
ingy \o/ 17:39
moritz_ github.com/moritz/perlgeek.de/blob/...-sense.txt # my next blog post, for your consideration
I'll go shopping, then re-read and publish
if you have any critic or suggestions, I'll backlog
pmichaud moritz_: those are exactly the sorts of discussions I tend to avoid :) 17:40
moritz_ pmichaud: I'm younger than you :-)
TimToady GET OFF MY LAWN, BOTH OF YOU!!! 17:41
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ash_ are private methods inherited? 17:42
17:42 estrabd_ joined, zostay_ joined, au|irc_ joined
ash_ or are there private methods? 17:42
jnthn Sure
They're methods.
Use submethods if you don't want inheritance.
TimToady not only are they not inherited, you can't even name them from outside, unless you're trusted
jnthn TimToady: If you're trusted by a parent class, you can call them on a subclass, no? 17:43
TimToady: I hope so otherwise you mix a role in which generates an anonymous subclass and then OH NOES you can't see the private method any more. :-)
moritz_ pmichaud: the foremost reason for this blog post is that people often ask why Perl 6 has no protected methods and attributes, so I wrote something to point them to
TimToady I don't think private method calls are virtual, but I could be wrong
moritz_ pmichaud: (this is the purpose of about a third of my blog posts) 17:44
jnthn TimToady: Is there a good reason for them not to be?
moritz_ efficiency
TimToady yes, you have to name the class explicitly to call them. $obj!THAT::CLASS::method 17:45
that doesn't mean that $obj can't be a subclass though
it just means you're calling a private method as a sub in THAT::CLASS
so I think it works the way you want
smash moritz_: 'You users will be...' typo maybe ?
jnthn TimToady: ah, ok 17:46
TimToady: Guess in that case it doesn't matter about the mix-in case then.
TimToady: We have been calling them unqualified in Rakudo so far.
But that's fixable
Is $obj!foo a compile-time error 'cus it's unqualified?
TimToady unqualified means to call the one in *this* class only 17:47
tylercurtis moritz_: I agree with your post, but I'm doubtful that it will actually convince people.
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TimToady private method calls are sub dispatched really, and the type of $obj has nothing to do with it 17:47
colomon moritz_: The one thing I can think of in favor of protected is the idea it serves as a sort of warning. "Yes, if you work at it you can get at this, but it isn't part of the official public interface and therefore is subject to change."
17:47 cj left, au|irc left
jnthn TimToady: Ah, that's a quite clear way of putting it. 17:48
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jnthn moritz_: As a data point, protected is a modifier I use quite rarely in the C# stuff I do at $dayjob. 17:49
It's certainly the least useful one, in my experience.
OTOH, I also avoid building large inheritance hierarchies.
ash_ protected methods are the ones that i think a C++ person would complain about the most, protected methods can be used to hide implementation details from the world but not the subclasses, so if you don't want the world to be able to use something, but you do want subclasses to, then protected is what your after 17:50
tylercurtis ash_: subclasses are the world, generally.
TimToady protected only makes sense in a world where you can dictate who can or cannot inherit from you 17:51
"I, class Foo, being in good health and of sound mind, do bequeeth..." 17:52
rhebus -> out 17:53
pmichaud and inheritance becomes a lot more expensive in the U.S. starting in 2011 :) 17:54
</obscure-congress-cant-get-its-acts-together>
17:54 rhebus left
TimToady plans to die this year, or not at all. 17:54
ash_ i guess, in my mind, the idea that you define a public api doesn't settle well if you have to make a function public that is an implementation detail
tylercurtis ash_: if it's an implementation detail, you don't want subclasses getting at it, because anyone can be a subclass. 17:55
pmichaud ash_: the real-world analogy is: "only those who claim to be my relatives can have access to the vault"
TimToady perhaps what's really going on here is that we don't have 'trusts Any where * ~~ $?CLASS'
saying you trust your kids would presumably allow them to use the $obj!meth notation with a dispatcher that can find a parent classes private method 17:57
shortcircuit And we all know kids shouldn't use meth. ;)
pmichaud TRUST NO ONE! STAY OFF OF TIMTOADY'S LAWN! :-)
TimToady well, that's more or less what we give ADHD kids
pmichaud or outside of a rehab clinic: "KEEP OFF THE GRASS" :-P 17:58
shortcircuit This whole channel has ADHD. :D
TimToady there's a meth to our mad 17:59
pmichaud I have AD, HD, DC, AC, and I frequently encounter UV.
TimToady AM and FM as well
or do they encounter you? 18:00
tylercurtis keeps trying to come up with justifications for protected (at least in C++) and failing.
diakopter a GM encountered my VW
ash_ ya, all the C++ reasons for using protected come more from limitations, or the use of generics where a role could provide a better solution
18:01 Holy_Cow left
PerlJam ash_: what are the C++ reasons for using protected? 18:01
(I never was convinced that "protected" made enough sense in C++)
pmichaud one often needs protection from their offspring. :-)
ash_ hiding implementation details from the world but not subclasses
shortcircuit IMO, 'protected' makes sense for functions, but not data members. 18:02
PerlJam shortcircuit: why?
tylercurtis ash_: in what circumstance can the world see your class without being able to subclass it?
TimToady it is said the Bjarne himself says he would not put protected in now 18:03
[citation needed]
shortcircuit PerlJam: My particular use cases tend to involve helper functions.
[particle] what is this, wikipedia?
TimToady you never know
pmichaud "protected considered harmful" :-)
PerlJam "TimToady said ..." Is that a good enough citation? :)
colomon tylercurtis: there are hacky tricks to make a C++ class "final" 18:04
TimToady "protected considered gullible"
pmichaud "Even More Language Designer Greatest Mistakes"
ash_ tylercurtis: for instance in C++ Stl, they use _Deque_base in deque as well as list and vector
pmichaud can imagine a "Top Ten" program on this topic on the Discovery Channel :)
TimToady me sees titles scrolling upward
ash_ but they had to expose some implementation details so they subclasses could finish filling them in
PerlJam grabs his copy of "The Design and Evolution of C++" off the shelf to see what Bjarne has to say about protected (if anything) 18:05
18:05 patspam joined
TimToady yours only on CD for $29.95 18:05
pmichaud PerlJam: Hey, gimme my book back! :-P
PerlJam pmichaud: this one is *my* book :)
though I do see 4 or so that are likely yours 18:06
TimToady I didn't heard that he said that in the book, though...
pmichaud checks his bookshelf... "Oh, you're right. Here's my copy."
PerlJam Aha! Page 301 tells us who we can blame for "protected" 18:07
shortcircuit wonders what's slamming his server so hard.
colomon Mark INton
Linton
(also on page 301)
pmichaud and apparently he banned its use five years later :)
ash_ the government? or is that to common of an answer?
pmichaud "they had become a huge source of bugs"
ash_ :P
pmichaud aha, citation! 18:08
TimToady [citation no longer needed]
pmichaud "In retrospect, I think that protected is a case where "good arguments" and fashion overcame my better judgement"
colomon that refers to protected data, as of the writing of this book Bjarne was still in favor of protected member functions. (page 302)
ash_ protected only makes sense on methods, to me anyway 18:09
protected data seems weird
pmichaud ah, yes, in the previous paragraph:
"I still consider protected a fine way of specify operations for use in derived classes."
TimToady well, I think we can say that perhaps 'trusts' can be extended somehow someday to wildcard to derived classes, and leave it at that 18:10
ash_ trusts Nobody; 18:11
tylercurtis ash_: I agree with Stroustrup when he says (www2.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq2.h...act-class) that those sort of hierarchies(the _Deque_base thing) are bad design.
moritz_ corrects a grammaro noted by masak++, and publishes the blog post 18:12
pmichaud trusts none(Any) :-P 18:13
trusts Any(Nil)
er,
trusts any(Nil)
PerlJam trusts none () 18:14
:-)
oh, I guess that would be backwards
moritz_ trusts * where False;
TimToady DERIVATION { use MONKEY_TYPING; augment $?PARENT { trusts $?KID; } }
dukeleto howdy fine perl6 peeps
pmichaud dukeleto: what about the rest of us? ;-)
moritz_ all is fair if you MONKEY_TYPE
tylercurtis ash_: by the way, lack of roles is no excuse for anything in C++. C++'s weird mishmash of weird kinds of inheritance and template features trivially supports traits(but no renaming or exclusion). 18:15
colomon looking at my $work code, I seem to have used public and private about 5000 times, and protected 34 times. Given that, I'd certainly be comfortable with just working around the lack of protected in Perl 6.
dukeleto rakudo: my $g = grammar Foo { rule TOP { \d+ } }; say $g.WHAT
PerlJam "working around"?!?
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Code()␤»
dukeleto why is the WHAT of a grammar Code() ? 18:16
pmichaud dukeleto: you're getting the block, not the grammar itself. possibly a bug.
ash_ rakudo: my $g = grammar { }; say $g.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«()␤»
pmichaud rakudo: my $c = class Foo { ... }; say $c.WHAT;
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected ')' (')')␤ in file 'EVAL_10' line 37303565␤===SORRY!===␤syntax error ... somewhere␤» 18:17
PerlJam nice
pmichaud rakudo: my $c = class Foo { }; say $c.WHAT;
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Code()␤»
ash_ err, well my grammar was assigned to $g it just doesn't have a name
dukeleto i see the same behavior when i return a grammar from a function
ash_ rakudo: grammar Foo { }; my $g = Foo; say $g.WHAT;
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Foo()␤»
ash_ rakudo: grammar Foo { }; my $g = Foo; say $g.WHAT, $g ~~ Foo; 18:18
pmichaud dukeleto: for the same reason, likely. the blocks used for grammars and classes are immediate blocks when used as statement-level context.
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Foo()1␤»
PerlJam rakudo: my $g = grammar Foo { }; say $g.WHAT;
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Code()␤»
dukeleto should I submit this as a rakudobug and add a spectest, or am I using things incorrectly?
pmichaud dukeleto: I'm saying I'm not sure what the spec says (or should say) here.
dukeleto what else returns Code for it's WHAT?
pmichaud you could submit it for spec clarification 18:19
dukeleto pmichaud: ok, just trying to clarify :)
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dukeleto pmichaud: how does one submit something for spec clarification? 18:19
ash_ p6 language mailing list? possibly
dukeleto TimToady: do you have a ruling on this?
pmichaud dukeleto: either send to p6l, or send to rt with '[spec]' in the subject line
18:19 Ross left
pmichaud (where send to rt == [email@hidden.address] 18:20
18:20 Ross joined
dukeleto does $x.WHAT ever return "Grammar", for some object $x ? 18:21
just wondering
moritz_ only if you call Grammar.new() 18:22
ash_ rakudo: grammar Foo {}; say Foo.^parents;
tylercurtis rakudo: say Grammar.WHAT;
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Grammar()Cursor()Regex::Cursor()Any()Mu()␤»
rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Grammar()␤»
moritz_ rakudo: grammar A { }; say A.HOW
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«GrammarHOW()␤»
ash_ Foo is a grammar
sub-class of
moritz_ dukeleto: you identify a grammar by ~~ Grammar
dukeleto: Grammar is just a class that all grammars inherit from
ash_ tylercurtis: the main issue in the sample you linked, with the class Shape is all the member's are virtual functions, so making something protected in that context is wrong since it isn't an implementation detail, but if one of those methods did have an implementation, then it could make sense to add protected methods, i'd still argue protected data is wrong though
tylercurtis ash_: your example also included protected data. 18:23
ash_ how so?
dukeleto moritz_: i am hacking on PL/Perl6, and deciding how to marshall return values of Rakudo functions to Postgres datatypes
moritz_ dukeleto: and writing 'grammar A { }' is very nearly the same as 'class A is grammar { }'
ash_ rakudo: class A is grammar { } # just wondering 18:24
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'trait_mod:<is>'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu $child, Role $r)␤:(Routine $r, Any :default($default)!)␤:(Code $block, Any $arg?, Any :export($export)!)␤:(Mu $child, Mu $parent)␤:(Mu $type where ({ ... }), Any
..:rw($rw)…
ash_ rakudo: class A is Grammar { }
moritz_ sorry, is Grammar
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: ( no output )
TimToady seems a bit odd for a class to return code though
tylercurtis ash_: gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/li...00702.html includes a protected data member: _M_impl
moritz_ tylercurtis: known (and submitted) bug 18:25
erm, meant TimToady
TimToady arguably should return the .HOW
tylercurtis Or, is that not required by the standard?
ash_ tylercurtis: i'd image you could factor the protected out 18:26
no, those are implementation details, thats just how libstdc++ decided to implement it
you don't even have to have a _Deque_base template, the std only defines the deque class 18:27
s/class/template class/
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dukeleto moritz_: (just clarifying) is the Grammar.WHAT == "Code" bug known, or should I submit it for spec clarification ? 18:28
moritz_ dukeleto: known 18:29
dukeleto moritz_: cool, thanks :)
moritz_: do spec tests exist for it? I am excited to exercise to commit to the spectests in their new git hom 18:30
dukeleto needs more coffee 18:31
moritz_ dukeleto: not sure
dukeleto moritz_: ok, i will look and add some if I don't see any
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TimToady sliding-window looks wrong to me; I think it should take @values (decontainerized) each time, not the individual elements, so as not to prejudge whether the user wants a flat list or a slice list 18:33
in github.com/colomon/List-Utils/blob/...t/Utils.pm 18:34
colomon ah
I think I avoided that mostly because I've found flat versus slice to be a troublesome distinction thus far. 18:35
(and it seems like it still remains a major point of discussions between you and pmichaud...) 18:36
PerlJam colomon: but the conservative thing would be to take @values (to maintain structure), and let the user flatten if needed. 18:37
TimToady I don't think this part is in doubt
PerlJam colomon: because it's really hard to go the other way :)
TimToady and you will appreciate it more when slice actually gets implemented, I suspect 18:38
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tadzik oh hello 18:39
colomon huh. If I "take @values", all my tests work fine, but the actual generated structures contain a bunch of arrays: 18:41
([1, 2], [2, 3], [3, 4], [4, 5])
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tadzik rakudo: class A {}; class B is A {}; # what's wrong with this one? 18:42
sorear right
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: ( no output )
tadzik hrm
Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'A' here
sorear rakudo: my @a = 1,2; my @b = 3,4; say (@a,@b).elems; say (@a,@b).perl;
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«4␤([1, 2], [3, 4])␤»
sorear totally to be expected
TimToady colomon: maybe take @values.list 18:43
pmichaud colomon: repeat after me: arrays are not lists. :-)
well, they are lists, but they're not eqv list :)
TimToady might make more sense to return slices
pmichaud anytime you put things into an array, you're flattening and itemizing the contents of the list
fwiw, take @a[*] might work. 18:44
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TimToady wait, this is on a list, nevermind 18:44
pmichaud and @a[*].Seq is likely to work also.
colomon pmichaud: "anytime you put things into an array, you're flattening and itemizing the contents of the list" makes no sense to me.
anytime you put lists into an array?
pmichaud colomon: yes.
arrays either destroy structure (flattening) or make it concreate (itemizing) 18:45
which is why they're not typically appropriate for use internally in list operators
*concreate
*concrete
grrrr 18:46
TimToady maybe @values := list; while take @values[^$n] { @values.munch }
dukeleto does Rakudo's Code inherit from Parrot's Sub?
colomon The code in question is (after TimToady's suggestion) gathering Arrays.
jnthn dukeleto: No, it has-a
colomon That appears to be generating exactly what I would want, given only a few quick experiments...
pmichaud okay.
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pmichaud I'm saying that the act of taking things out of @a and putting them into @values is going to impose a new structure on whatever was coming in from @a 18:47
colomon on the other hand, I've certainly no objection to figuring out how to return a List of (something more basic that Array). 18:48
TimToady see mind bind above for an alternative
s/mind/my/
colomon @values := list; (etc)?
you're suggesting that as a replacement for the entire algorithm?
TimToady pretty miuch
*!i 18:49
dukeleto jnthn: from C, i am seeing that when returning a Grammar, it ISA Sub, not a Code
colomon will that destroy the @a being passed in?
TimToady @a is a list, surely
or you can force it to be a list, as you do already 18:50
dukeleto jnthn: when using Parrot_PMC_isa(interp,pmc)
pmichaud my $list = @a.iterator.list; 18:51
TimToady but the whole point of lists is to be destroyed
pmichaud while $list.elems >= $n {
TimToady ack no
pmichaud well, yes, we don't want to use .elems
TimToady sliding window should work on an infinite list
colomon yes, infinite lists are important to me. :) 18:52
pmichaud anyway, it's
TimToady just let .[^$n] reify what it needs to
colomon oooh, I need a test on that.
pmichaud oh, right.
so
my $list = @a.iterator.list; # might be shorter someday
TimToady the doubtful part of my pseudocode is that it would return a False .[^$n] 18:53
pmichaud gather loop { take $list[^$n]; $list.shift; }
colomon that's "generate a list based on the iterator for walking across @a", yes?
PerlJam the window only slides one element at a time?
colomon aha, yup, current code is broken.
PerlJam: yes
jnthn dukeleto: Yeah, it's just a side-effect of the way we do the code-gen at the moment.
TimToady how do we catch .[^$n] running off the end?
jnthn dukeleto: I almost fixed it once, but ran into some other side-issue
pmichaud TimToady: this is where we need that construct that asks "do you have at least $n elems" again 18:54
jnthn dukeleto: I'll take care of it when I do the other upcoming OO changes, I expect.
pmichaud I don't know that we ever solidified its name
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jnthn .icanhas 18:54
PerlJam jnthn: surely that's .icanhaz
pmichaud we speculated that it could be an argument to .eager
i.e., .eager(3) 18:55
patrickas is deleting code from the list operator like there is no tomorrow!
TimToady .eager(3) == 3 ?
pmichaud yes
TimToady last unless .eager(3) == 3
jnthn PerlJam: Or plzcanhaz :-)
pmichaud but that goes against what we were saying yesterday for .eager as snapshot
TimToady .force(3) == 3 18:56
.reify(3) == 3
pmichaud (well, except that eager would presumably return a snapshot of the 3 elements it eagered)
TimToady it's very primitive
.premunch(3) :)
pmichaud (in which case .eager(3) == 3 would work )
dukeleto jnthn: awesome, thanks for the explanation. i may add some spec tests for it, if there are none
jnthn dukeleto: Feel free
dukeleto: I fixed it for roles and lexical and anon classes 18:57
I forget what came up when I tried to fix it for package ones
It's probably fixable with a little effort
TimToady so eager is really .eager(*) # you decide ?
colomon likes .icanhaz
pmichaud TimToady: that's what we were speculating, yes :)
jnthn But I'm going to be tearing the whole thing up and re-doing it in a month or two anyway.
TimToady it might be worthwhile to keep the concepts apart until we see that they really do unify
pmichaud TimToady: I'm fine with that ... I just need a name :) 18:58
haselems
TimToady .really(3) :)
pmichaud .atleast(3)
TimToady that implies == 3
colomon .atleast +1
TimToady .atleast(3) == 1 reads funny 18:59
and has use cases
pmichaud .gimme(3)
TimToady gimme is fine
pmichaud (we speculated .gimme before also :)
it returns the count or the elements?
TimToady spiral design, hope it's spiraling inward...
it guarantees the return number of elements are reified 19:00
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pmichaud okay 19:00
so, if it only reified 2, we get back 2
so sliding window becomes
dukeleto TimToady: i think the design of Perl 6 is a fractal-shaped strange attractor
pmichaud my $list = @a.iterator.list;
TimToady We know Perl 6 is strange, and hope it's an attractor. 19:01
pmichaud gather while $list.gimme($n) >= $n { take $list[^$n]; $list.shift; }
and since $list[^$n] produces a Parcel, it doesn't force itemization.
TimToady I suppose gimme can return >= than asked for, especially if you ask for * 19:02
colomon errr, isn't * the one case it cannot return >= asked for?
pmichaud right, I think gimme should report on how many are accounted for.
colomon: you asked for whatever, it can return whatever. :-)
TimToady but also arguable that, if you want that, you should say .gimme($n..*)
I guess also arguable that .gimme(3) fails if it can't get exactly 3, and .gimme(^4) means the other thing 19:03
pmichaud I don't know that gimme should be discriminating on an exact match
it seems lower-level than that. I mean, it's hard to undo the reification in the general case 19:04
TimToady nod, just poking
hard integers are good at this level
pmichaud if we start saying "give me exactly 3 or don't do anything" we start to get in trouble.
TimToady .negotiate(3) :)
pmichaud lol 19:05
TimToady I can give you 1, and throw in a pack of bubblegum.
pmichaud (on phone for a bit) 19:06
19:06 xinming joined
TimToady lunch for a bit 19:06
[particle] shave and a haircut 19:07
TimToady also, I think these list functions should mostly be built-ins
dukeleto rakudo: my $g = new Grammar; say $g.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of C++ constructor syntax; in Perl 6 please use method call syntax at line 22, near "; say $g.W"␤»
dukeleto [particle]: you are alive!
patrickas is (1..* ... 5), (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), '1..* ... 5'; #Locally passes :-)
dukeleto What does that error about using a "C++ constructor" mean?
[particle] dukeleto: buried alive, yes
colomon TimToady: Feel free to consider List::Utils my way of proposing list functions which should be added to the spec. ;)
19:08 stepnem left
sorear dukeleto: new Grammar; 19:09
ash_ Grammar.new # is probably what you meant 19:10
colomon changes pushed to List::Utils.
19:11 stepnem joined
sorear rakudo: my $g = new Grammar:; say $g.WHAT 19:11
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "my $g = ne"␤»
dukeleto ash_: yes, but do you see how the error is reporting later on? 19:13
19:13 dual left
ash_ rakudo doesn't understand indirect method calls yet 19:14
PerlJam dukeleto: that's where it realizes there's an error I guess (after parsing the end of the identifier)
ash_ rakudo: sub new { say $_ }; say new Grammar;
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of C++ constructor syntax; in Perl 6 please use method call syntax at line 22, near ";"␤»
ash_ ummm is that right?
does that mean i can't call a sub new?
tadzik ETOOCARINGCOMPILER 19:15
ash_ std: sub new { say $_ }; say new Grammar;
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of C++ constructor syntax; in Perl 6 please use method call syntax at /tmp/UWIzC_1zcH line 1:␤------> sub new { say $_ }; say new Grammar⏏;␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 117m␤»
moritz_ colomon: I've got a non-numeric test case for transpose() in List-Utils... do you want a patch? or pull request? or give me commit bit?
surprisingly it passes :-)
ash_ well, it would probably be bad practice to have a sub called new, but still
PerlJam ash_: I'd call it a bug 19:16
colomon moritz_: then clearly you need a better non-Numeric test case! 19:17
moritz_ is transpose(([<a b c d e>],[<f>],[<g h i>],[<j k>])), ([<a f g j>],[<b h k>],[<c i>],[<d>],[<e>]), "strange matrix with strings";
uhm
these tests don't actually test the structure at all 19:18
colomon moritz_: you can haz commit bit.
and do haz.
moritz_ colomon: thanks
colomon is slightly giddy with excitement that people are paying attention to the quick little module he threw together. 19:19
guess I'll just leave the administration / collaborators page open here for a bit... <whistles quietly>
pmichaud std: sub new { say $_ }; say new(Grammar); 19:20
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 117m␤»
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pmichaud rakudo: sub new { say $_ }; say new(Grammar); 19:20
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤ in 'new' at line 22:/tmp/CT7uq74adr␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/CT7uq74adr␤»
PerlJam colomon: you could just hand out commit bits to everyone you know and then tell people about it after the fact if you want other hackers :) 19:21
pmichaud rakudo: sub new($x) { say $x }; say new(Grammar);
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Grammar()␤1␤»
pmichaud rakudo++
ash_ so, its a paren thing
pmichaud you can have a sub called new, you just can't use it as a listop
colomon PerlJam: ooo, is there a list of p6 people's github ids? ;)
moritz_ colomon: the 'perl6' team has a long list :-) 19:22
pmichaud I think only owners can see the 'perl6' team list, though?
or those who self-publicize?
moritz_ has no idea
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moritz_ rakudo: sub a($x, $y) { say "$x|$y" }; say 1, 2 Z.&a 3, 4 19:23
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say 1, 2 Z"␤»
Util_ Perhaps CREDITS needs a new field - GitHub ID? 19:24
moritz_ +1
colomon switch context to perl6, teams, perl6 gets a list of a bunch of us... presumably the rakudo committers?
pmichaud no, the perl6 list is different from the rakudo list
colomon ah. 19:25
pmichaud (rakudo is a separate account)
in particular, being added as a rakudo committer requires a cla
but anyone can be added to the perl6 tam
*team
colomon I thought it odd that there were so many CLAs out there.
well, I've added a few of the usual suspects to List::Utils, and anyone else who wants one is more than welcome to ask. 19:27
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moritz_ pushed some better tests for transpose() 19:30
colomon moritz_++
moritz_ github.com/perl6/perl6.org/pull/1 can I somehow apply this pull request from the web interface? 19:32
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colomon moritz_: I wasn't able to figure out a way to do that when I tried yesterday. 19:35
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moritz_ colomon: I've now clicked on 'fork queue', and applied the patch itself there 19:36
colomon really? sweet!
errr... where's rakudo's authors file?
ash_ CREDITS?
moritz_ which is LTA, because if there are many commits associated with a pull request, you have to find all of them yourself 19:37
colomon ash_++
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moritz_ unsurprisingly, my blog post has attracked lots of disagreement; surprisingly it has attracked quite a few polite and technical comments on the blog itself 19:47
dukeleto moritz_: which post?
moritz_ dukeleto: perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/protecte....writeback 19:48
tadzik I'd rather have only no private than no protected attributes personally 19:49
but maybe I get it all wrong :) 19:51
moritz_ there's no way to get preferences wrong 19:52
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tadzik well, after seeing all the arguments I doubt if I get the whole concept right. Mind a short discussion? 19:53
PerlJam perhaps I'm just stubborn, but I don't buy the commenters arguments.
patrickas unless you prefer not to have a preference
moritz_ tadzik: I wanted to encourage discussion with my blog :-)
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moritz_ PerlJam: they see 'protected' as documentation. That I can agree with 19:54
PerlJam moritz_: sure ... except that not everyone sees it that way.
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moritz_ patrickas: it's fine not have a preference for things you know nothing about, IMHO 19:55
ash_ its also away to say "this is usable but not by the general public" to, since not every detail has to be made public but some details are better exposed than not exposed
huf cant someone add protected if they really want it? :)
tylercurtis moritz_: but there are things that much more clearly mean the thing they're trying to communicate.
ash_ i am sure there is a way to emulate protected in perl6
moritz_ tylercurtis: right
PerlJam ash_: I'm still fishing for "why would you *want* to?"
moritz_ ash_: sure there is. You can always inherit from ClassHOW and add that behaviour 19:56
tadzik moritz_: well, I think the whole inheritance is about code reuse. So instead of copypasting the code from one class to another, you just inherit from it and change what you want to change, or add some stuff. Now if a class has a private attributes, you have no possibility to mangle it, so the only way to achieve what you want to achieve is to actually copypaste the code, which has no sense. Protected
things are something you can mess with, private are behind closed doors
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patrickas moritz_: It was just a silly joke: it is a way to have a wrong preference if your preference is to not have a preference. 19:56
tylercurtis tadzik: we have roles now for code reuse.
tadzik hmm 19:57
PerlJam patrickas: you can choose not to decide, but you still have made a choice!
:-)
tadzik so what are classes and their inheritance about then?
moritz_ tadzik: there are several answers to that. First code reuse is only one goal of OO. Another is robustness by encapsulation. I think that protected hurts the latter
tadzik: "Now if a class has a private attributes, you have no possibility to mangle it, so the only way to achieve what you want to achieve is to actually copypaste the code, which has no sense 19:58
"
there is another way
no
just use the public API
which should be powerful enough to enable you do to the stuff you want
either by using, or by inherting
if it's not, you have bad design 19:59
PerlJam moritz_: I think you hit the nail on the head about protected being a hack to work around API shortcomings.
tylercurtis tadzik: You can, actually, (well, I'm not sure if you portably can yet, but you will be able to eventually) get at private attributes with ugly MOP-code, I think.
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tadzik mhm. But isn't private this enforced privacy we dislike? Now private is "oh noes, don't touch!" while protected is rather like "well, if you must..." 19:59
moritz_ introspecting private attributes is meant for things like "I want to store this on disc. When I load it again, I'll make sure the class code is the same" 20:00
so that you don't care about what actually is in the attributes, you treat it as opaque data 20:01
for example in Java you couldn't write a proper ORM wrapper without introspecting private data
PerlJam Perl 6 has "enforced privacy" where it makes sense. You can still get at the private thing and twiddle its innards, but you have to work a little to do it. 20:02
moritz_ (in Perl 6 you can do that by creating a different representation, once repr polimorphism is implemented)
ash_ no programming language is 100% safe from people messing with the innards
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PerlJam private, public, protected is more like black, white, and the one shade of grey we, the language designers, think you will ever need. 20:03
moritz_ tadzik: the "well, if you must" is exactly the problem. It's the same as "I can't decide if I want this to part of the API" - but since people *will* use it, it *will* become part of the API
PerlJam Perl recognizes that the language designer isn't the right person to make the decision about which shades of grey the programmers need.
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tylercurtis tadzik: regarding what classes are for, I don't really know, other than monkey_typing and {call,next}{same,with}. 20:05
PerlJam moritz_: Perhaps it's a mechanism of deferral? I don't know about other languages, but at least with C++ protected means something like "I can't decide right now, so I'll err on the side of private and let subclassers figure out how to make it public-ish if needed" 20:06
moritz_ PerlJam: except that protected really means "I erro on the side of public", because the outside world can subclass 20:07
PerlJam (otherwise it's private-ish one level down and really private beyond that)
sorear "Perl [5] wants you to stay out of your living room because you weren't invited, not because it has a shotgun".
I still think leading underscores are perfectly adequate privacy
moritz_ PerlJam: and that misconception (that you think it's private, but it's not) is what makes it so dangerous
PerlJam moritz_: it *is* private for the grandchildren :) 20:08
moritz_ sorear: me too :-)
PerlJam: unless they decide they want it public
PerlJam moritz_: Still, Darwin hasn't ruled completely against protected yet. 20:09
tadzik so the overall point will be: Roles Reuse, Classes Encapsulate
PerlJam tadzik: something like that. 20:10
roles are horizontal reuse, classes can be for vertical reuse.
(when you really do have a heirarchy)
tylercurtis sorear: I disagree because that means that subclasses have to know about your class's private attributes to avoid breaking things.
moritz_ has not yet enough experience with roles to share any wisdom
tylercurtis: that's a perl 5 specific problem 20:11
if you had per-class (and not per class hierarchy) attributes, you could still go with underscore as privacy indicator 20:12
tylercurtis moritz_: Right, but leading underscores alone are problematic. 20:14
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sorear plans to implement $!Foo::bar in niecza soon 20:15
right now niecza implements a flat namespace for attributes, but this is causing performance problems
tadzik plenty of OOP thinking for bedtime. Thanks for different points of view :)
moritz_ tylercurtis: they fall into the "we give you enough rope to shoot yourself" category, thus fit splendid into the Perl niche :-) 20:16
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moritz_ tadzik: then my blog post was successful :-) 20:16
sorear "We give you enough rope to build a space elevator"
PerlJam starts constructing a gun out of rope
patrickas colomon: ping 20:19
moritz_ PerlJam: be sure to put it in a repo
tylercurtis moritz_: True. :) But I think it's a good thing to make it easier to not shoot yourself than to shoot yourself. 20:20
colomon patrickas: pong
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[Coke] (space elevator) does that make Larry Willy Wonka? 20:22
patrickas the new serires refactor is kind of ready :-)
colomon \o/
patrickas it passes the following tests (I just commenetd the the ones tha need changing) gist.github.com/570893 20:23
which I will probably work on tomorrow
most importantly we can now have infinite lists on the lhs
both 1..* ... 5 and @fib ... 13 now work 20:24
PerlJam [Coke]: no, TimToady is more like Roald Dahl and pmichaud is Willy Wonka and we're all Charlie.
colomon wouldn't wish being Roald Dahl on anyone...
patrickas: that's really exciting! 20:25
patrickas colomon: (or anyone else) whenever you have time to review / try it out github.com/patrickas/rakudo/tree/series-new-spec 20:26
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[Coke] I'm more like the other grandpa from the second movie, I think. he was grumpy. ;) 20:27
patrickas colomon: I still have not worked on the string and unicode stuff, but honestly who uses thoses ;-)
[Coke] patrickas++
patrickas new code is about 35% smaller and a good chunk of the ugly stuff is gone (like returning the series type / having special cases for alternating serires ...) 20:30
colomon patrickas: as I understand it, we no longer need to do the @args stuff for the limited series.
it should just be something like $current ~~ $limit 20:32
patrickas I still have not removed this part, because we still need it when last elem of LHS is Code
colomon Code also smartmatches
unless you're seeing something in the spec I'm not. (which is certainly possible)
patrickas actually I did not see it... 20:33
but we only need it for the case where the limit is something like {$^a +$^b > 100}
I think the spec does not mention it but does not forbid it either :-( 20:34
colomon patrickas: but that's my point. I don't think that's allowed anymore.
the spec explicitly says "Assuming the next candidate value is in $x and the first element of the right side is in $limit, the two operators are implemented respectively as:
... last($x) if $x ~~ $limit;
...^ last if $x ~~ $limit;"
Limit can be Code, too, but only if it just takes one argument.
(at least as I understand it) 20:35
I mean, $limit can be Code.
PerlJam 1, 1, * + * ... * > 53
(e.g.)
colomon The point here is
rakudo: 35 ~~ * > 23
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: ( no output )
colomon rakudo: say 35 ~~ * > 23
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤» 20:36
colomon rakudo: say 35 ~~ * > 40
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤»
colomon errr...
PerlJam precedence
colomon rakudo: say 35 ~~ (* > 20)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«1␤»
colomon rakudo: say 35 ~~ (* > 40)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«0␤»
colomon there we go.
patrickas OK then no problem we just confirm with TimToady and I rip out that part too!
colomon it should make the end case dead easy. :) 20:37
patrickas phenny: tell TimToady is 1,2,4 ... {$^a + $^b > 100 } still allowed in the new spec ?
phenny patrickas: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
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colomon fail "Need more than one item on the LHS" if @lhs.elems == 1 && $limit ~~ Code 20:40
how does that work?
sorear 1 ... &opaque 20:41
what comes after 1?
colomon 2
patrickas colomon: you are right
int he new spec it says we should .succ 20:42
TimToady patrickas: no, limit is only on next candidate value
phenny TimToady: 20:37Z <patrickas> tell TimToady is 1,2,4 ... {$^a + $^b > 100 } still allowed in the new spec ?
colomon also, that one element might be Code
patrickas I think in the old spec we had to guess if we succ or .pred and we could not do that with one elem
TimToady if you want to base on more than that, you have to last out of the generator
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sorear last? 20:42
it's a loop?
patrickas Thanks, I'll implement that! (probably later tonight). 20:43
Gotta run now!
colomon patrickas: sounds to me like there is a test we need to write, because the tests should have caught that case.
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colomon rakudo: say 1 ... * > 10 20:43
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Need more than one item on the LHS␤ in 'infix:<eq>' at line 1␤ in '_HELPER_generate-series' at line 849:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 871:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 885:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/XbrtieGNBN␤»
colomon rakudo: say 1 ... (* > 10)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Need more than one item on the LHS␤ in 'infix:<eq>' at line 1␤ in '_HELPER_generate-series' at line 849:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 871:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 885:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/gU9VCtoGy0␤» 20:44
colomon rakudo: say 1, 2 ... (* > 10) 20:45
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«␤»
colomon rakudo: say 1, 2 ... (* < 10)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«123456789␤»
colomon rakudo: say 1 ... (* < 10)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Need more than one item on the LHS␤ in 'infix:<eq>' at line 1␤ in '_HELPER_generate-series' at line 849:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 871:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 885:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/zSybVN530x␤»
colomon rakudo: say { (1..6).pick } ... (* < 10)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Need more than one item on the LHS␤ in 'infix:<eq>' at line 1␤ in '_HELPER_generate-series' at line 849:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 871:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 885:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/0ilBDgFXBe␤»
patrickas colomon: i'll fix that later tonight. Gotta run now. 20:46
bye all
20:46 patrickas left
colomon o/ 20:46
pmurias moritz_: the github pugs repo has all the history? 20:48
phenny pmurias: 30 Aug 01:13Z <sorear> ask pmurias I want to fix Mildew after all the changes I've made to STD-CPAN, but I don't see where to start.
pmurias: 06 Sep 20:12Z <moritz_> tell pmurias if there are any parts of the pugs/mu repo you want extracted into a separate repo, please let me know
pmurias sorear: hi
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colomon rakudo: say (1..6).pick ... * < 3 21:09
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Need more than one item on the LHS␤ in 'infix:<eq>' at line 1␤ in '_HELPER_generate-series' at line 849:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 871:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 885:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/eKQHYGHRLd␤»
colomon rakudo: say 1, 2, (1..6).pick ... * < 3
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«12␤»
colomon rakudo: say 1, 2, (1..6).pick ... * > 3
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Unable to figure out pattern of series␤ in 'infix:<eq>' at line 1␤ in '_HELPER_generate-series' at line 849:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 871:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/HmcSgPNvXm␤»
colomon rakudo: say 1, 2, (1..6).pick ... (* > 3) 21:12
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«␤»
colomon rakudo: say 1, 2, (1..6).pick ... (* < 3)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«12␤»
colomon rakudo: say 1, 2, (1..6).pick ... (* < 3)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Unable to figure out pattern of series␤ in 'infix:<eq>' at line 1␤ in '_HELPER_generate-series' at line 849:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<...>' at line 871:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/uQxUXtLsRa␤»
colomon oh! 21:13
rakudo: say 1, 2, { (1..6).pick } ... (* < 3)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«12␤»
colomon rakudo: say 1, 2, { (1..6).pick } ... (* < 3)
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«12122␤»
nimiezko hello 21:15
tylercurtis phenny: ask pmurias is there's a more up-to-date source of information about SMOP and Mildew than www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop 21:18
phenny tylercurtis: I'll pass that on when pmurias is around.
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sorear thank you, pmurias, for leaving three minutes after getting a question with only a "hi" 21:23
rgrau_ hi, I just read moritz_'s post about protected attributes. Is it also true for methods? 21:25
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sorear rgrau_: define 'true' 21:29
rgrau_ no protected methods
only public and private
I suppose there will be some kind of methods that will be inherited by subclasses but not accessible from the outside, right? 21:34
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rhebus rgrau_: isn't that what protected means? 21:37
rgrau_ yeah, but I don't know if attributes are treated in the same way as methods 21:38
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rhebus in most languages, yes 21:45
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rhebus is there a way in perl 6 to have a method overridable but not callable from outside? I think that would cover most use cases of protected 21:45
overridable or aroundable 21:46
TimToady there's always die unless self.does(::?CLASS) 21:47
in fact, method foo (MyClass $self: @args) is pretty much the definition of protected 21:48
so it's really a complete non-argument 21:49
oh, wait, nevermind 21:50
jnthn TimToady: That doesn't mean it can't...right. :-)
dalek odel: f8cf789 | mberends++ | java/ (14 files):
[java/runtime] non working interim commit of Metamodel classes
 21:51
TimToady it's more like die unless CALLER:<::?CLASS>.does(::?CLASS)
jnthn Yeah
Was trying to write the same thingy but too tired. :-)
TimToady obviously I should be taking a nap
jnthn Same, given I've gotta be at work in $other-city in 7 hours 21:52
It's so unusual for my sleep schedule that I'd just lay awake though, so I'm opting for little sleep. :-)
rgrau_ :q 21:55
oops, sorry
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sorear hrm 23:08
druid uses type constraints all over the place
23:10 cdarroch left
TimToady added the pure functional example to rosettacode.org/wiki/Matrix_multipl...ion#Perl_6 23:13
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tylercurtis The typical way to convert to type Str, for example, is to call the .Str method. What would be the way to convert to Bazzle::Fin? Can you have a method named Bazzle::Fin? 23:45
std: class F { method Bazzle::Fin { 1 } }
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 115m␤»
tylercurtis rakudo: class Bazzle::Fin {}; class F { method Bazzle::Fin { Bazzle::Fin.new } }; F.new.Bazzle::Fin.perl.say; 23:46
p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for non-object␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/NhZSOdVO5z␤»
pmichaud tylercurtis: it's likely to be Bazzle::Fin(F $f) 23:52
nyi in Rakudo, of course. :-|

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