»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | Rakudo Star Released!
Set by diakopter on 6 September 2010.
00:00 M_o_C left 00:07 pythonian4000 is now known as pythonian4000afk 00:31 hercynium left 00:36 justatheory left 00:44 [hudnix] joined 00:45 hudnix left 00:52 redicaps joined 00:53 redicaps left 01:00 hercynium joined 01:04 jasonmay left 01:09 jasonmay joined 01:15 sjn joined
sjn o/ 01:15
Video of jnthn's talk in Oslo: www.nuug.no/aktiviteter/20100914-li...arge-apps/
sjn thinks it was very well done :D
jnthn++ 01:16
sorear good * #perl6 01:21
lichtkind: still here? 01:22
lichtkind shure
sorear Niecza uses STD.pmc to parse Perl 6 01:23
it's a Perl 5 module, and currently the niecza frontend is all Perl 5
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lichtkind ah thanks 01:24
sorear any more technical questions from anyone? 01:25
jnthn: Why is dalek reporting nqp-rx/nom but not niecza/mm?
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lichtkind_ sorear: and the backend? 01:29
sorear lichtkind_: currently, src/CodeGen.pm generates C#, which is then linked to lib/Kernel.cs and lib/Cursor.cs and run 01:30
lichtkind_ thanks but i ment what written in?
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sorear .pm files are Perl 5, .cs files are C#, .pm6 and .setting files are Perl 6 01:31
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lichtkind thanks but i ment what written in? 01:32
shit this conenction sucks
sorear .pm files are Perl 5, .cs files are C#, .pm6 and .setting files are Perl 6 01:33
ping Juerd, he can fix that for you
lichtkind i go sleep soon :)
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lichtkind sorear: thanks a lot if anything impiortant comes to your mind tell me or post directly on www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....ory_tablet 01:37
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flussence aaaaaagh, I just realised why that spectest cronjob crashed my machine 01:54
"* 4 * * *" does not run it once at 04:00 01:55
01:56 molaf_ left
flussence that'd be "0 4 * * *"... 01:56
sjn is very, very happy with jnthn's presentation video 01:59
sorear flussence: ... "crashed"? 02:10
flussence I had to power cycle it to get it back to life again 02:11
doesn't handle OOM nicely for some reason 02:12
Infinoid moritz_: Looks like it worked, even though it could use some flood protection. The refresh rate is once per hour 02:25
colomon rakudo: say (+(0.Int)).WHAT; say (+(0.Int + 0.Int)).WHAT 02:32
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Int()␤Num()␤»
sorear Infinoid does #perl6 now? 02:34
Infinoid: Do you know why nqp-rx reports non-master branches but niecza doesn't? 02:35
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colomon rakudo: say ((0.Int + 0.Int)).WHAT 02:46
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
colomon rakudo: say (+(0.Int)).PARROT; say (+(0.Int + 0.Int)).PARROT 02:47
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Int␤Num␤»
colomon rakudo: say (+(0.Int)).PARROT; say (0.Int + 0.Int).PARROT 02:48
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Int␤Integer␤»
colomon bingo
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Infinoid sorear: nqp-rx reports the "nom" branch because moritz added that branch to the config. 03:01
sorear: github.com/perl6/mu/blob/master/mis...-conf.json 03:02
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sorear NIFTY! 03:03
I can add to that file without using my feather1 sudo bit!
Infinoid The refresh rate is once an hour, so there will be some delay before it picks it up
Also, it doesn't detect deletions, only a bot restart will kill old feeds.
Any further thoughts on push-based commit notifications? 03:04
sorear sudo killall -HUP botnix?
Infinoid Depending on how smart killall is (the top level command is "perl") 03:05
diakopter well its pid hasn't changed in a long time 03:07
'tis just to grep for its pid 03:08
Infinoid That's what I do
But killing the bot isn't the nicest thing anyway... patches welcome to make the feed management more dynamic (of course)
diakopter dropped 'faster' 03:09
'tis faster just to grep for its pid
Infinoid Though every single time, I make the mistake of grepping for "dalek" instead of "botnix" :) 03:10
diakopter fails to find who/when hilited me on #perl6 03:11
Infinoid diakopter: It wasn't me, but hi :)
diakopter hi :) 03:13
sorear 2010.09.17.17.50.21 < diakopter> oh, try_rakudo uses it. 03:15
2010.09.18.04.20.25 <+phenny> moritz_: 17 Sep 22:49Z <diakopter> tell moritz_ I sigtermed your pugssvn on feather3; sorry if I wasn't supposed to
2010.09.18.04.20.32 < moritz_> diakopter++
2010.09.18.22.07.46 < diakopter> well its pid hasn't changed in a long time
?
diakopter heh
I guess yeah; I missed moritz_'s almost immediate reply
sorear grep++
irssi's universal logging could stand to work saner though 03:16
Infinoid it works for me 03:20
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sorear Infinoid: Does "branches" : [ "mm" ] mean "branches" : [ "mm", "master" ] ? 04:02
Infinoid: I see niecza isn't in dalek-conf.json at all. ? 04:04
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thowe Is there some way I can view the documentation for the CGI class? 04:07
sorear Which one? 04:17
thowe mm, the built-in one. When I say "use CGI;"
I assume it is much like the Perl5 version, but I don't know.
sorear it's probably a tiny subset of it 04:18
we don't have much in the way of big libraries yet
thowe November seems to use it to some degree, but I don't know if there is any API docs yet or if it is complete. I was told there is no such thing as "perl6doc"
sorear rakudo star? 04:19
thowe yes, but rakudo site seems down(?)
sorear it would have to be, no other distribution comes with more than a handful of modules
thowe I admit, it's been a long time since I played with Perl5, so if there are equiv ways to do these things I am not going to be super familiar. I am kind of going at Perl6 without much Perl knowledge 04:20
coming from Ruby, if anything.
sorear hmm, modules.perl6.org doesn't even list CGI 04:23
are you sure it exists?
star: use CGI;
p6eval star 2010.07: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to find module 'CGI' in the @*INC directories.␤(@*INC contains:␤ /home/p6eval/.perl6/lib␤ /home/p6eval/rakudo-star-2010.07/install/lib/parrot/2.6.0/languages/perl6/lib␤ .)␤»
thowe hrm... I got the idea it was there from looking at November code... 04:25
github.com/viklund/november/blob/ma..._post_test 04:26
maybe it somes from elsewhere... 04:27
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thowe s/somes/comes/ 04:28
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sorear well, github was written for alpha 04:43
er
november
Infinoid: ping 04:54
diakopter sorear: i'm taking a look at how loosely-coupled niecza's regex engine is 05:01
sorear the one big place where it's coupled is the handling of backtracking into subrules
S05 specs that a rule is a method which returns a lazy list of cursors 05:02
diakopter it's all in Cursor.cs ?
sorear lines 284-296 of Cursor.cs set up a gather/take lazy list and are *very* coupled to the niecza data model
yes 05:03
diakopter ah, ok
and any routine mentioning slots 05:04
sorear GetKey and SimpleWS are support routines for the Perl6 'Match' and 'Cursor' classes 05:05
the slots-mentioning chunk in Backtrack serves to terminate a gather list
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diakopter what's QueryLiteral 05:07
sorear S05:46
it's used to tiebreak longest tokens 05:08
food\w+ beats foo\w+ because it returns a larger value on QL
niecza implements rules 1-4 05:09
diakopter sorear: you might be able to s/out /ref /g and get a compile-time speed improvement (i'm not certain though). it's fewer checks for the C# compiler (and IL JIT) to do, and it might be fewer assignments in the generated code.
diakopter boggles at public Lexer(DynMetaObject, string, LAD[]) 05:12
sorear: do you use mono from trunk (with .net4 enabled and new gc built)? 05:14
sorear ... oh right, DynMetaObject 05:15
araujo I need a name for a small language .... say something now
diakopter s
sorear arange
thowe stick
sock
sorear I use mono from trunk with .net4 and new gc
diakopter cool
sorear I use the new gc, it's a huge win, but I don't plan to switch to dmcs until 2.8 is released 05:16
sometimes as much as 2x speed
total, not gc only
araujo sorear, Arange .. from Orange ??
sorear or maybe it's A-Lang from a japonophone 05:17
or maybe I was just looking at araujo
araujo hahaha hehe
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sorear diakopter: uh, right, DynMetaObject, there's some stuff being done with that to generate LTM nodes for <foo>, also protoregex candidate lists 05:18
ingy how do I install nqp? 05:20
LaVolta rakudo: 123.sprintf("%x", 456).say; 05:24
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«123␤»
thowe as of Star 2010.08 it is failing to build for me again :(
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LaVolta Int can sprintf, but what's the purpose of it? 05:24
just turn it into Str? 05:25
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sorear LaVolta: most Str, Int, Num, List methods are actually defined in their common superclass and do relevant coercions 05:34
(Cool)
thowe: what is failing to build for you? 05:35
ingy: installing parrot automatically installs nqp under the name parrot-nqp
LaVolta sorear: thanks...and can you point me to some related documents?
thowe once I start a make it goes for a while and then says something about a VM problem. I already removed it to try to build 2010.07 again 05:36
sorear I think moritz blogged about Cool last month
thowe: For all I know you're talking about the Linux kernel 05:37
thowe I'm sorry, I don't have it in front of me any more to give more details. If it fails again I will have more information. This is on OpenBSD 4.7 05:38
I had had the error before and it was fixed, I thought there might be some kind of known regression 05:39
sorear You could at least tell me the name of the program you're trying to build
That would help a lot
clkao_ win 27
thowe Rakudo star 2010.08
I had done "perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot" and then "make" 05:40
sorear Ah.
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ingy sorear: does installing rakudo install parrot? 06:32
I see parrot-nqp in my path... 06:34
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sorear rakudo depends on parrot 06:48
you can't install rakudo without first installing parrot
configuring rakudo with --gen-parrot installs parrot 06:49
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moritz_ good morning lambdabutterflies 07:34
hirschnase snork 07:41
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mberends hi moritz_, coffee smells good today 07:56
moritz_ hola mberends
moritz_ considers baking waffels for breakfast
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mberends is hacking on 6model/java 07:56
sorear moritz_: hi 07:58
moritz_: what's up w/ dalek?
moritz_ dalek: I don't know; is it misbehaving?
sorry, meant sorear :-) 07:59
moritz_ hasn't backlogged yet
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sorear moritz_: well, niecza isn't mentioned in the new dalek conf file; why is it being reported? 08:01
moritz_ sorear: the old format with one module per repo is still supported, and it hasn't been switched over yet
sorear moritz_: I want dalek to report niecza/mm, what do I have to do 08:02
moritz_ sorear: see my last commit to the mu repo; simply do the same for niecza
when you add the mm branch, it will continue to report the master branch as before 08:03
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sorear ah, nqp master is still being tracked by perl code? 08:03
moritz_ right
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sorear why is the last url https? 08:04
moritz_ dunno; maybe as a test case 08:05
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dalek : 00ebcc2 | sorear++ | misc/dalek-conf.json:
[misc] Track niecza/mm
 08:05
moritz_ sorear: fwiw, that file is read every 60 minutes 08:06
sorear yes, Infinoid told me that much 08:08
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LaVolta rakudo: "Perl"*(6).isa(Cool)+'language'or not 0??0!!0 08:34
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: ( no output ) 08:35
LaVolta rakudo: say "Perl"*(6).isa(Cool)+'language'or not 0??0!!0
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«0␤»
LaVolta cool
fail
moritz_ 'Perl' as a number evaluates to 0 08:36
LaVolta ...actually the no output one is 1
so...just having some fun with my basic knowledge
try.rakudo.org showed me the right answer :-P 08:38
sorear eval: use warnings; print "Perl"*(6) 08:41
buubot: eval: use warnings; print "Perl"*(6)
buubot sorear: Argument "Perl" isn't numeric in multiplication (*) at (eval 40) line 1. 01
moritz_ rakudo: say ("Perl"*(6).isa(Cool)+'language'or not 0??0!!0)
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz_ without the parens it's parsed as say(....) or not 0??0!!0 08:42
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LaVolta ah...yeah...have to run it in REPL 08:43
can someone show me a better one? :) 08:44
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tadzik oh hai #perl6 08:47
sorear hi tadzik 08:52
dalek ecza/mm: 85f1192 | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] implement my class {}
 08:56
ecza/mm: dc6824e | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] implement has $!foo, a few more sub bits
ecza/mm: 2bc3b94 | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] Extend once-detection logic
ecza/mm: 72f125c | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] Implement augment
ecza/mm: 4b77974 | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] Implement methods
ecza/mm: 0cb1071 | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] Implement signature processing
ecza/mm: c73de8d | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] do a bit of reference pruning

Don't link parser Bodys into the metamodel
ecza/mm: a7ff91c | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] Implement superclasses
ecza/mm: 31b2aaa | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] Implement automatic subclassing of Any
ecza/mm: 51c12fe | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
[mm] Connect to the compiler driver
ecza/mm: 26f8301 | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] Implement state variables
sorear wait, wait
did dalek just push the entire history of the branch?
I thought I only pushed five commits
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masak o/ 09:08
sorear o/ masak
tadzik lolitsmasak!
LaVolta hej masak 09:10
masak www.cis.upenn.edu/~byorgey/haskell-...bet/I.html # 哈哈
sorear byorgey!
haven't seen THAT name in a while
masak old acquaintance? 09:12
sorear eh, sortof 09:13
#haskell old times
masak I stumbled over the link through Planet Haskell.
sorear I like Y 09:14
sorear ponders the nature of my $x is export 09:15
LaVolta /dev/disk0s2 149Gi 148Gi 750Mi 100% / # stort problem, jeg behov mere diskplads
masak T is for Types, which keep coders in check. 09:16
“You didn’t mean that.” “Yes I did! I… oh, heck.”
:)
heh, I like Y too.
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masak and Z, kinda. 09:17
sorear LaVolta: ? 09:18
09:18 Mowah left
LaVolta sorear: just got a warning from osx :( I need TimeCapsule 09:19
and it's okay...just a complain
tadzik masak: how about some ecosystem decomplicating? 09:22
sorear tadzik: up for 1600 UTC Tue? 09:23
tadzik sorear: nah, I'll be gone holidaying 09:24
sorear :/
tadzik cpan6sketch?
sorear aye; I'm still holding onto hope that I'll be able to do something with that
tadzik I'll be gone tue-fri, or even tue-sat
sorear but I need an agenda 09:25
masak I'll be there.
sorear so anyone with ecosystem grievances please step forward!
masak tadzik: I fear I'm too busy/scattered today. but I'll be happy to set a time with you.
today is election day in Sweden. and I have to clean, and do laundry. :) 09:26
sorear I should send a mail to p6l and maybe ask #p5p/#toolchain for extra lists
tadzik masak: I think about just moving this from json to a simple " ^^ <name>\h+<url>\n $$" lines
masak tadzik: wfm. 09:27
tadzik masak: shall I do it?
masak go ahead.
sorear seen TimToady
aloha TimToady was last seen in #perl6 10 hours 40 mins ago saying "YOU_ARE_HERE is what the setting thinks your mainline code is called".
tadzik It'll save me making my own list for neutro
masak then pls can drop its JSON module, too. 09:28
tadzik ywis
masak hm, but it uses it twice...
oh, no worries.
my only concern is that we're leaving a structured format for something that has to be hand-parsed.
sorear masak: tadzik: please make lists of things you want addressed from the toolchain people
tadzik sorear: what do you mean? 09:29
masak sorear: my list is really short: make it feasible and attractive to put my modules on CPAN.
sorear I don't know, that's why I need help
tadzik oh, and I have a random thought about vcs integration
sorear creating momentum out of confusion is hard
tadzik so you can put your repo url on cpan6, and if it's supported, it should be available to make it autodetect tags and make tarballs out of tags 09:30
so cpan6 will be up to date w/o you doing anything really
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sorear tadzik: github does that automatically 09:33
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sorear my agenda for now is basically 'ask Alias what CPAN does wrong and what CPAN does very right. Have pmichaud there.' 09:33
I need more to go on
I need specific issues that need discussion
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sorear should CPAN be unified with whatever Perl6 uses? 09:34
tadzik sorear: tarballing, yes. Making tarballs automagically a cpan6 release, no
sorear (probably not; it makes "reinvent everything that needs reinventing" hard)
tadzik sorear | should CPAN be unified with whatever Perl6 uses? -- what do you mean?
sorear tadzik: having perl5 and perl6 modules side by side on cpan.org 09:35
tadzik hmm
masak sorear: without CPAN and Perl 5, Perl 6 is basically doomed to obscurity.
Alias CPAN6 should be superset 09:36
Think IPv4 vs IPv6 09:37
sjohnson （　｀ー´）
Alias Although it doesn't necesarily need to be so on day 1
sjohnson hi alias
tadzik lolpushed 09:39
oh noes, commit msg typo
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masak in other words, CPAN6 should asymptotically approach a superset. :) 09:40
tadzik I feel wrong every time I do git push --force
dalek osystem: 0f22da0 | tadzik++ | projects.list:
Simplified projects.list, no longer uses JSON
 09:41
tadzik (force-push would be hell nicer)
sorear thinks discussion of agenda items on #cpan6sketch would be a neat idea 09:42
tadzik oh, idea 09:44
doodle.com/ know that one?
we always plan pm group appointments here 09:45
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Alias masak: That's my feeling, so long as parrot/perl6 want multi-language support 09:47
09:47 arthur-_ left
Alias Which, as far as I'm concerned, is the last big problem for repositories nobody has solved yet 09:47
masak I keep being rooted in the extreme pragmatic's camp. give me something I can use today, and I will use it. if I can't, I will likely build something I can use out of chewing gum and bailing wire. 09:48
Alias I understand
Me too
sorear tadzik: I prefer logged IRC channels over web 2.0 stuff 09:49
Alias But CPAN really solves everything else that's needed, well except for a few bits and pieces we have yet to steal from Microsoft 09:50
So the next step needs to be a big step up to support multi-lang
tadzik sorear: I don't disregard IRC here, it's just about planning the date 09:52
sorear Funny, all these years I thought that distribution and packaging were the only place Microsoft's toolchain really *failed*
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Alias And it shouldn't REALLY take too long to write it all 09:53
The problem is that it's easy to get the design wrong, and then correcting the design takes ages
The average new CPAN feature takes about 2 years to implement
1 to be sure it's a good idea, then 1 to get everyone to play along
Then 5 before we can be sure all the end users have it :)
09:54 felipe left
Alias sorear: Don't conflate the overall ecosystem with the individual pieces within it 09:54
CPAN is an excellent ecosystem with some problematic pieces (which we're working our way through)
Microsoft has a lackluster ecosystem, with a couple of excellent pieces buried in it
tadzik seen supernovus 09:56
aloha supernovus was last seen in #perl6 1 days 9 hours ago saying "Well I'm off for the day. Anyway, it's far from finished, but the first version of Flower is now available on Github. Petal templates come to Perl 6 :-)".
tadzik phenny: tell supernovus you may want to add perlite6 to ww6's deps.proto
phenny tadzik: I'll pass that on when supernovus is around.
tadzik (and the other deps by the way) 09:57
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sorear my module Foo { }; augment module Foo { my module Bar is export { } }; augment module Foo::Bar { import Foo :OUR<Bar> } # Should this be legal? 10:01
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moritz_ I don't think you can augment module Foo::Bar 10:13
because Bar is lexical under Foo, not in the namespace
sorear erp. yes, should be our module Bar 10:19
moritz_ then I don't know the answer 10:21
tadzik hmm, how is feed operator really different from just chained method calling via '.'? 10:25
moritz_ in lots of ways 10:26
feeds are supposed to parallelize, and pass the objects through
just like a unix pipe
they don't, in rakudo 10:27
tadzik hmm
sorear has decided that my class Foo {} should only really use one slot
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tadzik oh, it messes with multiple objects 10:29
moritz_ it's really closer to >>. than to .
tadzik yes, I see now 10:30
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masak Perl 6 is about "building a set of abstractions so that people can achieve decent results without knowing what they're doing" :) 10:34
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masak paraphrased from www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6k8lTrAE2g , where the context was about concurrency. 10:34
moritz_ just made a nice experiment 10:41
--- a/src/core/YOU_ARE_HERE.pm
+++ b/src/core/YOU_ARE_HERE.pm
@@ -1 +1,3 @@
-YOU_ARE_HERE;
+for lines() {
+ YOU_ARE_HERE;
+}
$ echo 'foo' | ./perl6 -e '.say'
Could not find sub &infix:<!eq>
masak moritz_++ # for even entertaining the thought 10:42
I'm sorely tempted to submit that as a rakudobug :) 10:43
but is it really a bug if you change the source code?
moritz_ no
masak dang.
moritz_ you must resist.
masak succeeds, barely
& 10:44
10:44 masak left
moritz_ re-reads S06 on YOU_ARE_HERE 10:46
sorear there are a few dark corners 10:47
I have user-defined settings and nested settings working
though I haven't figured out how to make perl6 -n -e 'FIRST { }' work et
moritz_ had hoped to implement -n as multi MAIN(*@, :$v) { for lines() { YOU_ARE_HERE } } 10:48
erm,, :$n!
sorear it would be cute 10:49
the Rakudo setting stubber (to be fair, mine too) is fragile black magic
tadzik I thought about it some time ago, unfortunately, command line switches live somewhere in Parrot
moritz_ details :-) 10:50
I just wonder how -p is supposed to work
tadzik REPLalike?
moritz_ it would have to access the inner scope's $_ in some way
sorear S02:2563 ;) 10:53
it looks like the dependance on $_ is going away
perl6 -pe '$^a ** 2' 10:54
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sorear out 10:59
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dalek ecza/mm: 78739fd | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] Implement START
 11:04
ecza/mm: 76df230 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
[mm] implement WhateverCode and transparent blocks
ecza/mm: fbc89d5 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
[mm] Implement our packages, package access
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tadzik IO::Slurp is broken, is it known? 11:08
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tadzik rakudo: sub foo { say 'wurks' }; class A { method foo { foo() } }; A.new.foo 11:20
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«wurks␤»
tadzik hrm
rindolf Hmmm.... 11:27
tadzik rakudo: (1, 2, 3, 4, 6).first(9).Bool.perl # shouldn't it be Bool::False? 11:29
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: ( no output ) 11:30
tadzik rakudo: (1, 2, 3, 4, 6).first(9).Bool.perl.say # shouldn't it be Bool::False?
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«0␤»
tadzik rakudo: (1, 2, 3, 4, 6).first(6).Bool.perl.say # it's ok here
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
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pmurias hi 12:18
moritz_ hi pmurias 12:19
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pmurias moritz_: anything interesting happened in #perl6? 12:36
moritz_ pmurias: you did notice the pugs repo move?
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moritz_ and splitup 12:36
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jnthn Afternoon, 6folk 12:49
masak o/
flussence rakudo: say "good {<morning day evening>[DateTime.now.hour div 8]}, #perl6" 12:50
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«good day, #perl6␤»
flussence \o/
oh, my spectest cron job works now too! 12:51
masak \o/
jnthn sjn: Yay video! \o/
sjn: Wow, these are done slickly! 12:52
tadzik video?
jnthn tadzik: Of my Oslo talk 12:53
www.nuug.no/aktiviteter/20100914-li...arge-apps/
tadzik oh nice, I've been reading the slides today 12:54
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masak <-> is like -> but it puts 'is rw' on everything, right? 12:54
jnthn right 12:55
masak what about parameters in nested siggies?
moritz_ what about them?
masak does using <-> make them 'is rw' as well? 12:56
jnthn I suspect the impl doesn't curse, but perhaps it should... 12:57
er, recurse
:-)
moritz_ :-)
nice freudian
masak the impl doesn't have <-> yet.
jnthn masak: Oh
masak GGE regressed on that when moving to master.
jnthn masak: OK, the compile time signature object has a method that changes all the stuff to rw
moritz_ it doesn't properly parse them, I guess LTM fail
jnthn masak: Which <-> should just use when it will parse.
masak ok, nice. 12:58
moritz_ rakudo: <-> $x { }
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "<-> $x { }"␤»
moritz_ token term:sym<lambda> { <?lambda> <pblock> }
token lambda { '->' | '<->' }
jnthn Oh, I wonder if <?lamba> is considered non-declarative... 12:59
moritz_ that would be bad 13:00
moritz_ tries to split up lambda into a proto token
maybe the | alternative doesn't play well with nqp-rx's limited LTM 13:01
pmurias moritz_: yes the repo move was suprising 13:03
jnthn moritz_: I think it may be more the <?foo>
Dunno though.
moritz_ pmurias: for me too
pmurias: if you want any of the v6/ or mildew/ or smop/ things extracted into a separate repo, I can certainly do that 13:04
jnthn: seems like, yes
pmurias moritz_: i don't think there's any need for that 13:05
moritz_: i thought you were the one doing the repo move
moritz_ yes. But it wasn't planned 13:06
Juerd had to shut down the pugs repo, so I took emergency action
I would have preferred a well-prepared move, with a nice cleanup, notifying all devs in advance etc.
13:09 pmurias left
masak watches jnthn++ at www.nuug.no/aktiviteter/20100914-li...arge-apps/ 13:13
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jnthn
.oO( creepy, I'm being watched )
 13:14
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masak "Build a new Perl" -- I like that meme. 13:15
moritz_ welcomes masak to the Perl development team :-) 13:16
masak :P
flussence jnthn++ # really liking that multi sub MAIN() example
masak jnthn: I think there is a clinical name for the irrational fear that one is being googled.
jnthn
.oO( Just because you're paranoid doesn't meant they aren't watching you... )
 13:17
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Kodi rakudo: my $x = Hash.new(a => 1); $x<a> = 2; say $x.perl 13:18
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/hf21sGtKvO␤»
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masak submits rakudobug 13:19
moritz_ this makes some perverted sense. 13:20
Kodi The implementation of hash initialization does indeed look fishy.
masak moritz_: the error? I disagree.
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Kodi moritz_: What's your reasoning? 13:20
moritz_ Kodi: it binds $x<a> to 1 13:21
and since 1 is not a container, you can't assign to $x<a> subsequently
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moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 4; my $h = Hash.new(:$x); $h<a> = 42; say $x 13:21
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«4␤»
moritz_ rakudo: my $a = 4; my $h = Hash.new(:$a); $h<a> = 42; say $a 13:22
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«42␤»
moritz_ mind you, I'm not saying it's right; I just said it made some perverted sense.
Kodi Shouldn't Hash.new assign rather than bind, since hashes are supposed to be mutable?
Oh.
jnthn Yeah, perverted sense, but I'm quite sure it's rong. 13:23
masak jnthn++ # using the phrase "...then, just out of associativity, ..." in a talk :) 13:25
jnthn I did...? :-) 13:26
masak re [max]
jnthn Ah :-)
moritz_ jnthn: you're under surveilance. Anything you say in a talk will be held for or against you :-) 13:27
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masak I'm enjoying the talk very much so far. 13:28
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masak rakudo: my $x = Hash.new(a => 1); $x<b> = 2; say $x.perl 13:30
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«{"b" => 2, "a" => 1}␤»
moritz_ huh 13:32
I'm surprised that [+] .<destination> works
in jnthn's talk
shouldn't capture arrays be non-flattening?
jnthn moritz_: You've let me reach the next slide to complete the example?
moritz_ rakudo: '123' ~~ /<alpha>+/; say [+] $<alpha>
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ oh. 13:33
jnthn [+] .<destination>>>.<sales>
moritz_ so ». doesn't respect the nonflatteness?
jnthn I think it probably puts whatever is on the left into (flattening) list context.
sjn jnthn: yeah, the videos are nice! Only need to rehearse a little on timing and when to show text. :)
moritz_ rakudo: '123' ~~ /<alpha>+/; say [+] $<alpha>».Str
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«0␤» 13:34
moritz_ rakudo: '123' ~~ /<alpha>+/; say [+] $<alpha>.map: { $_ }
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ rakudo: '123' ~~ /<alpha>+/; say [+] $<alpha>[0]
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context␤0␤»
moritz_ stupid
jnthn rakudo: '123' ~~ /<alpha>+/; say $/
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«␤»
jnthn :-)
moritz_ it doesn't match :-)
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moritz_ rakudo: '123' ~~ /(.)+/; say [+] $0 13:35
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«3␤»
moritz_ rakudo: '123' ~~ /(.)+/; say [+] $0».Str
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«6␤»
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moritz_ sometimes really wishes for an identify method or sub 13:35
masak rakudo: sub id { $_ }; say id 42 13:36
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤ in 'id' at line 22:/tmp/mpmlhSAzZT␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/mpmlhSAzZT␤»
masak rakudo: sub id { $^_ }; say id 42
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Multiple declarations of lexical '$_'␤␤»
masak hm. fair enough.
jnthn std: sub id { $^_ };
p6eval std : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤$_ has already been used as a non-placeholder in the surrounding sub block,␤ so you will confuse the reader if you suddenly declare $^_ here at /tmp/aIk9H5pZux line 1:␤------> sub id { $^_⏏ };␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 115m␤» 13:37
masak rakudo: sub id { $^a }; say id 42
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«42␤»
jnthn std++ for the ncie errror
jnthn-- for the unnice typing
jnthn visits da nomshop
moritz_ seems the drunken gymnast is the canonical role conflict example by now :-) 13:43
masak \o/
if I were a drunken gymnast, I too would be conflicted when thinking of going to the bar :)
moritz_ masak: if you were a drunken gymnast, you probably couldn't appreciate the joke :-) 13:44
masak it's clearly better than the tree-dog-bark example :)
moritz_: I think you're right. as a drunken gymnast, I might even feel a little singled out. :) 13:45
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jnthn "Perl 6 project deemed insensitive by Association of Drunken Gymnasts, barred from further use." 14:01
masak *groan*
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moritz_ chuckles 14:02
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masak question re Rakudo: "is it close to being frozen?". huh? 14:04
sometimes I'm amazed at how many people seem to reason this way. 14:05
moritz_ "what browser do you use?" - "firefox" - "is it close to being frozen?"
masak how close is the Perl 5 implementation to being frozen?
flussence if they meant to say "finished", I'm not sure I've ever seen a frozen language... 14:07
okay, maybe VB6... 14:08
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Kodi Maybe the person who asked that question meant to ask when Rakudo would commit to backwards compatibility. Whether it ever should, to the degree that Perl 5 does, is another story. 14:09
masak Perl 6 was at a disadvantage from day 1 on the 'finished' point. it's impossible not to compare Perl 6 against Perl 5.
Kodi: oh, then I guess it's more a question about the Spec than about Rakudo.
jnthn I get more questions about spec freezes than Rakudo ones. 14:10
Kodi masak: Partly, but also I think it's a given that Rakudo's behavior is never going to be entirely defined by the spec. It will always have its own eccentricities and extensions, however few. 14:11
Besides bugs, I mean. :P
masak I guess many people fall into the group "want to learn Perl 6, but want it to stop moving around first".
i.e. non-early adopters. 14:12
Kodi Right.
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Kodi rakudo: my $x = (5, 6); say $x.WHAT; say $x[0].PARROT; 14:19
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Seq()␤Int␤»
Kodi rakudo: my $x = [5, 6]; say $x.WHAT; say $x[0].PARROT; 14:20
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Array()␤Perl6Scalar->Int␤»
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Su-Shee heyho. 14:34
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masak Su-Shee: \o 14:38
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Su-Shee can I make objects in rakudo and clone them without making classes? (javascript style OO)? 14:39
masak sure.
Su-Shee of course. ;)
masak rakudo: my $a = Mu.new; my $b = $a.clone
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: ( no output )
masak probably better to start from an anon class, though.
since then you can give the objects attributes. 14:40
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Su-Shee $a is an empty object if it comes from Mu, right? 14:40
masak rakudo: my $a = (class { has $.name }).new( name => "Otto" ); my $b = $a.clone( name => "Beatrice" ); say .name for $a, $b
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Otto␤Beatrice␤»
masak Su-Shee: yeah, fsvo "empty" 14:41
actually, for most values of "empty" :)
Su-Shee yeah, I remember so far. ;) 14:42
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masak but the above practice, with anon classes and cloning, basically gives you JS-style prototype OO. 14:43
you can even add in new methods with 'does' or 'but'.
and anon roles.
jnthn afk, kyrka 14:45
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masak ok, folks. I have a new blog: strangelyconsistent.org/ 15:44
much remains to be done, but at least it's up now :)
notably, within the next week or so, I intend to add an atom feed, and the comments from use.perl.org 15:45
the whole blog engine (just loose ends for now, but will eventually grow into a general static page generator) is written in Perl 6, except for the Markdown conversion, which I currently outsource to Perl 5. 15:48
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masak nom & 16:14
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pmichaud rakudo: my $x; $x &&= 5; say $x; # I can argue this one as being correct. 16:18
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«5␤»
pmichaud rakudo: my $x; $x *= 5; say $x; # compare with this one. 16:19
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«5␤»
flussence rakudo: my $x; say $x.Bool;
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«0␤»
flussence I tried the top one in p5 and it came out as false, so why's $x turning into 1 here? 16:20
rakudo: say Mu.Int
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Method 'Int' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/POJHcLwwhE␤» 16:21
pmichaud it's not turning into 1
flussence I don't really understand what's going on there...
pmichaud which one?
flussence oh, hang on a sec...
rakudo: my $x; say $x.WHAT 16:22
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
flussence Any coerces to a true value?
pmichaud No.
16:23 rbuels joined
pmichaud The relevant spec is S03:3979 16:23
"If you apply an assignment operator to a container containing a type object
(which is undefined), it is assumed that
you are implementing some kind of notional "reduction" to an accumulator
variable. To that end, the operation is defined in terms
of the corresponding reduction operator, where the type object
autovivifies to the operator's identify value."
and the identity value for && is True.
flussence Oh! 16:24
Kodi pmichaud: Which leaves the question of what on earth $x ^^= 2 should do, since ^^ has no identity (right?). 16:25
pmichaud Its identity is false. 16:26
same as with or.
rakudo: my $x; $x ^^= 2; say $x;
p6eval rakudo ccde8d: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
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pmichaud I ran into a small issue with ^^= so I skipped it for now (and it wasn't in the ticket anyway :) 16:26
Kodi pmichaud: Am I right in thinking that @a[2] and %h<a>, given that we're talking about Arrays or Hashes or other *mutable* containers, should return (Perl6)Scalars? S02:423 seems to imply as much. 16:32
pmichaud if @a is an Array, then yes, @a[2] should be a Perl6Scalar (and I think Rakudo implements them that way) 16:47
I'm not sure what Hash does... I suspect it's wrongish. 16:48
(which is another reason it needs a refactor)
Kodi Rakudo has Perl6Scalars for both at the moment. But why should Hashes be different from Arrays here?
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pmichaud they shouldn't 16:49
Kodi Oh, I see. 16:50
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pmichaud afk, soccer 17:03
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dalek ast: bc0487b | pmichaud++ | S03-operators/short-circuit.t:
Correct test in short-circuit.t (RT #77864).
 17:06
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thowe rakudo 2010.08 fails to build for me now. This was an issue before and then got fixed. 2010.07 works 17:15
Failed allocation of 4545912 bytes
Parrot VM: PANIC: Out of mem!
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Raynes I'm panicking, I'm panicking! 17:19
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TimToady you're only allowed to panic once. 17:23
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diakopter is there a limit on picnicking? 17:28
Kodi diakopter: Well, better picnicking than nitpicking. 17:29
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jnthn back 17:43
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colomon masak++ # very pretty blog 18:04
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diakopter thowe: how much ram has that machine 18:33
thowe 2G
18:34 whiteknight left
thowe I think I found a bug report for this already, though it isn't closed yet... 18:34
I'm back to 2010.07, so I'm OK for now. I'll just make sure I check that the next one works before killing my old one :P 18:35
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thowe is a 4-space indene the standard perl6 style? 18:54
er indent
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thowe how does one make rakudo compile a perl6 program to bytecode? 19:04
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lichtkind Juerd: ping 19:14
sorear thowe: bytecode generation is mandatory. Do you mean saving it to disk? 19:17
thowe sorear, Yeah, sorry. I assume if I have the bytecode I can make Parrot execute it faster than running against the source file every time, right? 19:18
sorear well, load faster 19:22
execution won't be any different
since the loader always makes bytecode
thowe OK, yeah. 19:23
sorear perl6 --target=pir Foo.pm
er
perl6 -o Foo.pir --target=pir Foo.pm
parrot -o Foo.pbc Foo.pir
thowe hmm. parrot complains about syntax errors in my .pir 19:28
sorear skip that step, it won't work
good * #perl6 19:29
Juerd lichtkind: pong 19:30
lichtkind Juerd: to you heard these chatbots here? 19:31
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Juerd lichtkind: I can't parse that. 19:34
lichtkind i mean herding like herding cats, meaning did you install evalbot and co? 19:35
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lichtkind Juerd: i just lokk for someone to install here another chatbot 19:41
s/lokk/look/
Juerd No, none(@bots) is any(installed,maintained) by me. 19:42
lichtkind thanks, any clues who to ask?
Juerd Not really, but ps axu could help :) 19:43
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masak colomon: thanks. :) the layout is a bit bare, still. I'll try to 'adorn' it without cluttering it. 20:51
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colomon masak: bare, but nice. 20:52
you'll be hooking it up to perl planet 6, I hope?
20:53 mberends left
masak colomon: I'll be adding an Atom feed next; then I'll add it. 20:54
colomon masak++
masak I must say it feels great to have a Perl 6-based blog. maybe more of you will try it if I package the software nicely? :) 20:55
colomon I have grown very fond of wordpress, I fear. 20:56
but I think it's very awesome to have a p6-powered blog. yet another reason it's nice that it's pretty. :)
masak \o/
my long term plans are to add the ability to comment. 20:57
arnsholt masak: You have a Perl 6-powered blog? 20:58
masak arnsholt: strangelyconsistent.org/
colomon it's p6 generating static pages, right?
masak right. and in all fairness, right now it shells out to Markdown in Perl 5. 20:59
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masak I plan to fix that, too. 20:59
jnthn lolitsmasak!
masak: I think somebody already wrote an NQP implemenation of markdown => there's probably already a working Perl 6 grammar for it. 21:00
colomon masak: speaking of that, have you seen www.codequarterly.com/code-challenges/markup/
21:00 WinstonSmith joined
masak jnthn: worth investigating. 21:00
colomon: nope, will peruse. 21:01
colomon masak: was very tempted to work on the challenge in that link, but the lure of ABC format was too great for me. :)
masak :) 21:02
jnthn masak: github.com/fperrad/markdown/blob/ma...grammar.pg
masak: As you may guess from the .pg file extension, it's in need some a little updating. :-)
masak nevertheless, probably something worth starting from. 21:03
colomon grammar files used to be .pg?!
jnthn It's, er, quite a big grammar.
masak it would be.
jnthn colomon: Before nqp-rx landed, the convention was to call them .pg
It mostly only caught on amongst users of the compiler toolkit, though. 21:04
masak fairly exciting election tonight. 21:05
but now, time for sleep. &
21:05 masak left
jnthn Meh. Interesting as in "like all too much of Europe of late, nasty far right party attracts more votes than one may hope". :/ 21:08
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sorear wonders if masak has played with mowyw 21:15
pmichaud: jnthn: have you any thoughts on #cpan6sketch agenda items / things I should do ? 21:16
pmichaud good afternoon, #perl6 21:20
sorear o/ pmichaud 21:21
dalek kudo: 523da45 | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
Bump PARROT_REVISION.
 21:22
jnthn sorear: Nothing immediate. My main feelings are that we should try and use existing CPAN infrastructure where it makes sense to do so, should start small and achievable than large and grand and hard to achieve, but should probably get the version/authority stuff in at a reasonably early stage so that there's time to explore the upshots of it. 21:27
There's a lot of people who've thought about module installation/distribution much more deeply than I have, though. 21:28
Oh, the other thing I think matters is that the source code is authoritative in terms of being the primary source of a version number and authority. 21:29
e.g. any other databases are caches. But I think that's more a module installer / Perl 6 implementation issue than a CPAN one.
pmichaud: good evening :-) 21:30
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dalek ecza/mm: ad61227 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
[mm] implement exportation (of packages)
 21:40
ecza/mm: 2abfd12 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
[mm] Rip out PRE-INIT
ecza/mm: 3b8eaf3 | sorear++ | src/ (3 files):
[mm] Implement accessor generation
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dalek ecza/mm: fad06e5 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
[mm] Implement bare blocks
 21:59
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dalek ecza/mm: cceef1a | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] Implement multiregex list construction
 21:59
ecza/mm: 8816670 | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] Implement sub exports
ecza/mm: b4eb756 | sorear++ | src/ (3 files):
[mm] Implement gather stubs
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sorear I hate how verbose hash iteration is in Perl5 23:26
buu I agree, but it seems like adding 'pairs' methods doesn't really solve the underlying problem. 23:34
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sorear straw poll: how inconvenient would it be if eval() allocated 10KB and never freed it? 23:48
flussence I consider "eval" synonymous with "evil" anyway, so... 23:50
if it's 10KB per eval and that causes someone problems, they're probably doing something wrong :) 23:51
23:51 hercynium left
diakopter flussence: okay okay, but disregarding that.. 23:53
flussence 10KB isn't something people would generally notice missing. 23:54

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