»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | tinyurl.com/p6contest
Set by moritz_ on 28 December 2010.
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snarkyboojum niecza: say "I work now" 00:38
p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«Can't open perl script "niecza_eval": No such file or directory␤»
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diakopter evalbot control restart 03:19
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diakopter waits 03:19
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diakopter niecza: 1 03:19
p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«./run/Niecza.exe: 1: MZ\x90\xFF\xFF\xB8@\x80\xBA\xB4: not found␤./run/Niecza.exe: 1: Syntax error: "(" unexpected (expecting ")")␤» 03:20
diakopter niecza: 1.say
p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«./run/Niecza.exe: 1: MZ\x90\xFF\xFF\xB8@\x80\xBA\xB4: not found␤./run/Niecza.exe: 1: Syntax error: "(" unexpected (expecting ")")␤»
diakopter o_O
hee
diakopter goes to fix
sorear: for p6eval, I'm getting the same error TimToady was 03:30
Unable to resolve method keys in class Array 03:31
2.8.2 on linux amd64
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sorear diakopter: I just spent an hour installing 2.8.2 and I can't reproduce it so you're on your own 04:07
sorry.
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diakopter sorear: you should be saying "sorry" to p6eval :P 05:59
diakopter tries a fully fresh clone 06:01
`make p6eval` being the first command 06:02
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diakopter NICE 06:06
SIGABRT, this time
Mono Ahead of Time compiler - compiling assembly /home/p6eval/niecza_msw/run/NieczaActions.dll 06:07
* Assertion at liveness.c:593, condition `to >= from' not met
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moritz_ niecza: say "good morning" 06:55
p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«./run/Niecza.exe: 1: MZ\x90\xFF\xFF\xB8@\x80\xBA\xB4: not found␤./run/Niecza.exe: 1: Syntax error: "(" unexpected (expecting ")")␤»
moritz_ p6eval@host04:~/niecza$ ./run/Niecza.exe -e 'say 3' 06:56
-su: ./run/Niecza.exe: cannot execute binary file
p6eval@host04:~/niecza$ file run/Niecza.exe
run/Niecza.exe: PE32 executable for MS Windows (console) Intel 80386 32-bit Mono/.Net assembly
that works on my local machine 06:57
dalek albot: d86a077 | moritz++ | evalbot.pl:
invoke niecza via mono
 06:58
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sorear niecza: say "1" 07:11
p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«./run/Niecza.exe: 1: MZ\x90\xFF\xFF\xB8@\x80\xBA\xB4: not found␤./run/Niecza.exe: 1: Syntax error: "(" unexpected (expecting ")")␤»
moritz_ evalbot control restart 07:13
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moritz_ niecza: say 2 07:13
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moritz_ niecza: say 2 07:13
p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method keys in class Array␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/SAFE.setting line 922 (SAFE keys @ 2)␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Metamodel.pm6 line 192 (Metamodel Namespace.list_stash @ 7)␤ at
../home/p6eval/niecza/src/Metamodel.pm6 line 603 (Me…
moritz_ how that looks more like a problem for which I'm not responsible :-) 07:14
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dalek ecza: 0cdc4fd | sorear++ | Makefile:
Only run nam->dll step if file changed
 07:29
ecza: 6210c2c | sorear++ | / (3 files):
Give main modules in a REPL session unique names
ecza: a9b3447 | sorear++ | lib/CLRBackend.cs:
Remove excessively global state from CLRBackend
sorear moritz_: awesome, an accessible demo 07:30
sorear wonders whether to abandon the "bootstrap images = v1.5 + releases, no exceptions" rule
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moritz_ sorear: you can always make intermediate releases if you need them for bootstrapping 07:36
niecza: say 1 07:38
p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method keys in class Array␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/SAFE.setting line 922 (SAFE keys @ 2)␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Metamodel.pm6 line 192 (Metamodel Namespace.list_stash @ 7)␤ at
../home/p6eval/niecza/src/Metamodel.pm6 line 603 (Me…
moritz_ -> hospital&
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Layla_91 Helo! o/ 07:54
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Layla_91 anybody home? :D 08:04
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sorear Layla_91: I am 08:21
also, ITYM "awake" 08:22
it is late night/early morning across the US and Western Europe
which is where most of the world's english speaking computer users are
Layla_91 sorear: I know :D Well at least I found you :) 08:25
sorear so what do you want ?
Layla_91 sorear: As a start just to say hi :D Also I need to ask about something, I read that RHEL fencing agent for vmware has a PerlVI based helper.. that is perl6 right? 08:27
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masak oh hai, zebras. 08:29
Layla_91 masak: hi! :D
masak Layla_91: how's the studying going? is the book any good? :) 08:30
sorear hello masak !
masak hi sorear !
Layla_91 masak: It is great :D But currently I do not progress too fast because of some extra work at job..
masak: my first job :D 08:31
masak ah. RAM seems to have been what the niecza build needed...
Layla_91: :)
Layla_91 masak: I read that RHEL fencing agent for vmware has a PerlVI based helper.. that is perl6 right?
masak no idea. 08:32
Layla_91 masak: I just was surprised since that is a production ready product and it has some perl6.. pretty cool :)
sorear masak: With a few well timed SIGINTs I can get it to build in 400MB 08:33
masak :)
sorear it's insane that it takes *more* memory than the Perl 5 version
masak sorear: I have it built now, but the 'say 2 + 2' example in the REPL blows up.
you probably know this.
sorear masak: something about Array.keys? 08:34
masak mhm
sorear mono --version?
pmurias says 2.8.1 doesn't work but 2.8.2 does; diakopter says 2.8.2 doesn't work; 2.8.2 WFM; it's all very confusing
masak Mono JIT compiler version 2.6.7 (Debian 2.6.7-4) 08:36
that one built for moritz_ -- don't remember if it ran.
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sorear masak: it clearly works almost-fine since it can build the compiler and get to the niecza> prompt 08:38
there isn't a whole lot of point in running make right now, since boot/run/Niecza.exe and run/Niecza.exe will be almost the same unless there's a horrible bug 08:39
masak fwiw, boot/run/Niecza.exe runs 'say 2 + 2' fine. 08:40
that means there's some horrible bug, right? :)
sorear yes. 08:44
horrible, as in, when I found out, I quit the project 08:45
(for about 3 minutes...)
masak bootstrapping is like this, from what I can tell. 08:49
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tadzik ~ 09:13
mathw Morning
masak \o 09:17
from the Android Dev guide: "It’s possible that you may need to restrict your app’s availability for business or legal reasons. For instance, an app that displays train schedules for the London Underground is unlikely to be useful to users outside the United Kingdom." 09:18
wait.. was that a business reason or a legal reason? o.O
sounds like the restricting-Duration-for-math-ops thing all over again. 09:19
mathw a sheer practicality reason
except
what if you're about to travel to London and you're loading up your phone in readiness
sorear possibly legal. the BBC tends to restrict a lot of the stuff they publish to taxpayers
masak mathw: that's what I mean.
sorear: this is not BBC :)
mathw London Underground times has nothing to do with the BBC
masak this is transportation.
mathw that would be Transport for London
Of course one could still just use their website I suppose 09:20
But it's a silly restriction
masak I read it and thought "huh. are they that afraid of terrorists? (and do they think terrorists can not work around such limitations?)"
mathw I just think it's a very bad example
masak ok.
mathw It can't be a TfL terrorism thing if it's from the Android dev guide... 09:21
masak true.
mathw Or at least, it makes it massively less likely :) 09:22
And it's all on their website anyway
plus, given the frequency of tube trains most of the time, you don't need to know exact times
unless you're right out in the outer zones
or at the start and end of the day
you just go and stand there for a bit, and a train arrives 09:23
masak convenient.
mathw that's my usual approach to the trams here
all day they run roughly every five minutes
so even if I'm going somewhere past the split, it's still every ten ish 09:24
slightly more irritating on a Sunday or late at night
masak sorear: did you once say that even stack-based VMs like JVM are register-based at some lower level? mberends and I got to talking about that the other week. 09:26
dalek ecza: d971196 | sorear++ | lib/CLRBackend.cs:
Implement a used units cache for CLRBackend
 09:28
ecza: 6437ed8 | sorear++ | lib/Builtins.cs:
Use a persistant child AppDomain for running code
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sorear masak: I said something almost but not quite that 09:28
masak: many small JVMs are stack-based internally, but optimizing ones aren't 09:29
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masak sorear: ah, ok. 09:33
I just learned that Dalvik, the Android VM, is register-based.
sorear dalvik is a bit of a special case 09:35
the Sun Java VM is designed to run in an environment where RAM grows on trees
masak aye. 09:36
sorear the "64MB default heap size" is the most blatant lie I've ever seen in software docs :/
mathw dalvik isn't really a JVM, as I understand it 09:39
sorear nice, with the latest change, a stage2 niecza has <=0.25s turnaround at the REPL 09:42
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sorear niecza> our $x = 42; 09:43
niecza> say our $x;
42
\o/
masak mathw: correct. 09:52
sorear: shouldn't 'my' work just as well in that case? if the REPL does the infinitely-nested-blocks thing, I mean. 09:53
sorear baby steps... 09:54
there was previously no retention of state at all 09:55
but yes my *should* work
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sorear it requires interacting with STD on a deeper level than niecza currently does 09:55
I'll have to talk to TimToady about this
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masak sorear++ # progress 10:28
sorear although tbh it's the 20x improvement in turnaround speed that pleases me more 10:29
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masak turnaround speed? 10:31
dalek ecza: 0fd012e | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm6:
Fix accidental excessive sharing of stash nodes
 10:33
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ecza: b1c6b40 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
Prune optrees after saving units
payload hi
is the scope wrong? i think so, but it works while my $c = $*IN.getc { ... }; say $c 10:34
tadzik rakudo: while my $c = $*IN.getc { }; say $c.perl 10:38
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«undef␤»
masak payload: how do you mean with "scope wrong"? 10:39
$c is declared in the outer scope, so it's visible after the loop. 10:40
payload this answers my question, thanks 10:45
is there a flow control thing, where keyword my $foo { } declares $foo in the inner scope? 10:46
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masak payload: in Perl 6, the variable is visible in the scope where you declare it. the p5ism where it isn't wasn't considered a feature. 10:50
payload and scopes are only opened by curlys, right? 10:51
masak yes, that's another rule-of-thumb in Perl 6: scopes and (term) curlies are synonymous.
or maybe I should say 'blocks' rather than 'scopes', because there are non-block scopes, too. 10:52
rakudo: sub unsuitable($v) { !defined $v or $v < 5 }; my $x = $x + 1 while unsuitable($x); say $x 10:54
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/uZt52W0tGy␤5␤»
masak should I get a warning there?
rakudo: sub unsuitable($v) { !defined($v) or $v < 5 }; my $x = $x + 1 while unsuitable($x); say $x 10:55
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/e56br4Mrq9␤5␤»
masak oh, right. the rule is that C<$x = $x + 1> gives the warning but C<$x++> doesn't. 10:58
rakudo: sub unsuitable($v) { !defined($v) or $v < 5 }; my $x++ while unsuitable($x); say $x
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &while␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/Tfu3C0Fvz5␤»
masak rakudo: sub unsuitable($v) { !defined($v) or $v < 5 }; (my $x)++ while unsuitable($x); say $x 10:59
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«5␤»
masak \o/
so, what matthias_ requested at irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-01-12#i_3179352 already exists/works. 11:00
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masak JimmyZ: 您好 11:04
JimmyZ masak: 麦高，下午好 11:05
masak ^_^ 11:08
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pmurias sorear: re boot/ i think updating it with any revision that passes the test suit and can build a niecza that is capable of replicating itself (and passing the test suit) is sane 12:18
sorear: and checking that on a bunch of the mono versions we care about
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masak rakudo: say IO ~~ Cool 12:22
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
masak why is IO Cool? what particular methods from Cool is it that an IO needs?
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colomon I thought the default was for all the setting's classes to be Cool. 12:24
flussence rakudo: say +IO
colomon (ie, as far as I know, there aren't any Cool methods IO actually needs.)
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«0␤»
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masak colomon: so far, I've seen it as all things that were scalar values in Perl 5 should be Cool in Perl 6. 12:27
flussence I can't think of a case where any of those methods would actually be useful, IO's stringification and numification are mostly meaningless.
colomon masak: you mean, in the spec, or as you've seen it in practice? 12:28
masak as I've thought about it myself.
Cool arose because there wasn't a natural place for a bunch of scalar-value methods. 12:29
colomon I've certainly seen arrays used as strings via cool.
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masak right. that's an array being used in its scalar "aspect". 12:30
flussence the way I'd phrase it is that Cool goes on objects without external side-effects
(which is wrong, because that description doesn't work for date things...) 12:31
"stuff that doesn't use buffers"
colomon errr.. it's using an array as a scalar, I guess, but an array wouldn't have been a thing that had a scalar string value in P5, would it have?
masak by the way, the spec is still quite happy about talking about Scalar as a type. I'm very suspicious towards that type, since it doesn't seem to find its way into implementations for some reason.
pugs: my Int $a = 42; say $a 12:35
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«42␤»
masak pugs: my Scalar $a = 42; say $a
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«42␤»
masak wow, Pugs is fast :)
pugs: say Int ~~ Scalar 12:36
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1␤»
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flussence pugs: say Array ~~ Scalar 12:36
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
flussence does Scalar exist for any reason besides to say "~~ (not a container type)" ? 12:38
it just looks wrong to me.
masak I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that.
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colomon hadn't even realized the spec claimed Scalar was a type. 12:44
flussence the definition of it in S32/Basics is pretty vague. 12:47
and S29:680 makes a reference to a nonexistent S32/Scalars file... 12:48
colomon masak: looking back at what you were saying about scalars and cool, it seems like it's backwards to me. That is, Cool is mostly (entirely?) a set of scalar methods, so of course anything you call via it is going to be used as a scalar. That doesn't mean that it's only appropriate to have scalar types be Cool. 12:49
masak: It seems like the rationale should be something like "It makes sense to treat this as a string or a number".
flussence rakudo: my %a = (abc => 1, def => 2); say +%a 12:52
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«2␤»
colomon that said, it seems like it's very not obvious how to treat arrays and hashes as scalars in general.
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colomon rakudo: my @a = (pi / 2, pi, 2 * pi); say @a.sin 12:53
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«0.141120008059867␤»
colomon rakudo: my @a = <a b c>; say @a.chars 12:54
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«5␤»
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flussence (does perl6 still have a $" and $, for stringifying arrays?) 12:55
colomon flussence: I'm pretty sure not 12:56
I sincerely hope not! :)
flussence it's not a big loss now that you can interpolate code inside strings anyway :) 12:57
arnsholt And if you really want to just say "@array" and have something weird, you can monkey patch Array.Str 13:00
=)
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takadonet morning all 13:10
colomon o/ 13:11
masak takadonet: \o 13:12
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colomon news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2111794 # jnthn: how does this compare to your signature tricks? 14:27
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dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....eta_tablet 14:30
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flussence rakudo: say 1 15:40
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«1␤»
flussence rakudo: say q:to'end'.lines.perl;␤ 1␤ 2␤ 3␤ end 15:41
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Colons may not be used to delimit quoting constructs at line 22, near ":to'end'.l"␤»
flussence rakudo: say q:to('end').lines.perl;␤ 1␤ 2␤ 3␤ end
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Colons may not be used to delimit quoting constructs at line 22, near ":to('end')"␤»
masak heredocs NYI 15:42
flussence would that work if they were? 15:43
masak std: say q:to('end').lines.perl;␤ 1␤ 2␤ 3␤ end
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/u7kHCnQfzI line 1:␤------> say q:to('end').lines.⏏perl;␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤ statement modifier
..loop␤Parse failed␤FAILED…
masak no.
flussence aw :(
std: say q:to'end'.lines.perl;␤ 1␤ 2␤ 3␤ end 15:44
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized quote modifier: to'end at /tmp/Xnfr3pxTil line 1:␤------> say q⏏:to'end'.lines.perl;␤(Possible runaway string from line 1)␤Couldn't find terminator ' at /tmp/Xnfr3pxTil line 5 (EOF):␤------>
..end⏏<EOL>[…
flussence std: say q:to'end';␤ 1␤ 2␤ 3␤ end
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized quote modifier: to'end at /tmp/vtJrLIhfso line 1:␤------> say q⏏:to'end';␤(Possible runaway string from line 1)␤Couldn't find terminator ' at /tmp/vtJrLIhfso line 5 (EOF):␤------> end⏏<EOL>␤Parse
..fa…
flussence eh? 15:45
std: say q:to/end/;␤ 1␤ 2␤ 3␤ end
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤(Possible runaway string from line 2)␤Couldn't find delimiter for heredoc␤ at /tmp/VTAL566Vlm line 5 (EOF):␤------> end⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
flussence those syntaxes are in the spec, I thought they'd work... unless the lack of trailing \n is tripping it up. 15:46
masak it shouldn't, I think. 15:48
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flussence well I'll have to figure it out later... I left my laptop's power brick at home :D 15:51
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flussence
.oO( I wonder if this 3% is even accurate... )
 15:51
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MonetizedCulture Are #perl ops the types that hold grudges? I used to troll there back in high school and now they still ban me even though I need to use Perl in production now for managing an RDBMS 15:56
masak MonetizedCulture: not really sure why you're asking that here. maybe you should talk to a #perl op, or go on the lookout for a channel you need that you haven't been trolling back in high school. 15:58
frettled masak: perhaps he's just trolling ;)
masak no way to know without interacting with him. 15:59
MonetizedCulture Just trying to get to figure out some CPAN breakage :( 16:00
sorry
frettled MonetizedCulture: hey, we should apologize for being nasty. Sorry. 16:01
masak there are lots of channels on irc.perl.org that aren't #perl. I wouldn't call #perl the most informative/constructive channel, either.
sbp and they say your permanent record won't count later in life... 16:02
masak MonetizedCulture: I apologize for frettled being nasty. :P
frettled MonetizedCulture: but although we do have people here who use both Perl 5 and Perl 6, I think that this is the right place for it.
MonetizedCulture np 16:03
frettled MonetizedCulture: but try asking your question, and see if we can get you any usable pointers.
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MonetizedCulture Okay, I found out it was just because they ban webchat. 16:09
Thanks, bye :)
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felliott Good afternoon, #perl6 16:35
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takadonet felliott: hey 16:35
felliott I've written tests for the chained-xor bugs and I was wondering how I should submit them. 16:36
tadzik o/
felliott s/written/added thundergnat's tests from RT# 65164/
\o
takadonet you could fork off the perl6 test suite and then do a pull request 16:37
tadzik felliott: send them to the RT
or what takadonet said
felliott okay, I shall do that.
takadonet github.com/perl6/roast
that's the repo for the test suite
felliott thanks! 16:39
takadonet felliott: anytime 16:42
thanks for helping :)
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masak std: my ($a. $a) 16:55
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse declarator at /tmp/AWTD9lrjAK line 1:␤------> my ⏏($a. $a)␤Couldn't find final ')'; gave up at /tmp/AWTD9lrjAK line 1:␤------> my ($a⏏. $a)␤ expecting any of:␤ constraint␤ param_sep␤
.. parameter␤ …
masak a bit LTA. 16:56
er.
std: my ($a, $a)
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Useless redeclaration of variable $a (see line 1) at /tmp/2eSGdq8S_e line 1:␤------> my ($a, ⏏$a)␤ok 00:01 120m␤»
masak heh. better :)
rakudo: my ($a, $a) = 1, 2; say $a
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol $a at line 22, near ") = 1, 2; "␤»
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felliott I also found some old bugs that are fixed and already have tests. 17:06
Should I mark them resolved or comment on them?
takadonet points to masak 17:08
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masak felliott: if you have the privs, please resolve them. 17:16
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masak felliott: I'm happy to meet people pushing the open-ticket number downwards. :) 17:16
felliott Well, I submitted a comment and tried to mark it, but it said I don't have the privs. 17:19
I wish it hadn't let the comment go through. :) 17:20
I'm looking a #77578
s/a/at/
masak closes it 17:21
felliott: if you want more tickets resolve, either let me/us know here, or have RT cc the comments to p6c. 17:22
felliott thanks!
masak felliott: next time pmichaud stops by, he can give you more RT privs.
afk &
jnthn evening, #perl6 17:30
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takadonet jnthn: evening 17:48
jnthn o/, takadonet 17:49
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masak lolitsjnthn! 17:59
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jnthn yayitsmasak! 18:02
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TimToady whatsupwiththisnospacesmeme? 18:07
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jnthn regularbrokenspacebartraining 18:14
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rokoteko I never realized regular 'bro ken did spacebar training. 18:28
masak Bro Ken! What's up, didn't you do any regular space bar training? 18:31
supernovus in the META.info files, I haven't seen a spec for them yet, but is depends just an array of package names like deps.proto uses? Or is it the names as in the "name" field of the META.info ? 18:33
tadzik supernovus: the new names 18:34
I'll "spec" it in some spare time, I promise
supernovus Ah, I'll have to update it, I had put "json" instead of "JSON::Tiny"... I'm used to deps.proto. Does neutro still use the deps.proto file if there is no META.info? 18:35
tadzik nah 18:37
it doesn't have the database of the old names, nope
supernovus I'm guessing the new version isn't in play yet, as my ~/.neutro folder still has a copy of the old projects.list file :-) 18:38
sorear good * #perl6
takadonet sorear: yo 18:39
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tadzik supernovus: it probably didn't delete it :) Playing with the new branch requires removing the old .neutro dir 18:40
sorear: o/
sorear moritz_: diakopter ping 18:42
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supernovus tadzik: I just looked at the new branch, that looks awesome! When I finish adding proper META.info files to all my projects, I'll send you a list you can update and remove the SHELTER files for. 18:50
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tadzik ++supernovus 18:54
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payload hi 19:06
masak \o
payload rakudo: "foo".index("z")
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p6eval rakudo f3eb64: ( no output ) 19:06
payload rakudo: say "foo".index("z") 19:07
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: ( no output )
payload it throws a error
colomon rakudo: say "foo".index("z").WHAT
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
masak classic "something happens within a 'say' call and it never comes back" bug.
payload > say "a".index("b") ===SORRY!=== Substring 'b' not found in 'a' 19:08
masak that's better. 19:09
payload no, it just dies where the spec says it returns a falsy StrPos
masak StrPos NYI.
it doesn't die, not really.
rakudo: say defined "foo".index("z") 19:10
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
colomon rakudo: if "foo".index("z") { say "boo!"; };
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: ( no output )
colomon rakudo: if "foo".index("z") { say "boo!"; } else { say "Drat"; };
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Drat␤»
payload why does my perl6 repl breaks and die screaming SORRY? but okay 19:13
so i can use index for string inclusion test?
colomon you're trying to use a non-existant result. 19:14
masak I don't know why it screams SORRY.
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masak it dies because you're "triggering" the Failure by trying to print it. 19:14
colomon SORRY is probably the "I've just tried to do something I cannot with a Failure" message.
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colomon masak: The spec does seem a bit wonky here. 19:16
masak how do you mean?
colomon payload: The thing is, if you just say "foo".index("z") then you'll get a mysterious warning message and a 0 value which is otherwise indistinguishable from the 0 you'd get if it found the string at the first position. 19:17
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colomon masak: The spec'd behavior is to return a prototype StrPos there. So if you don't test the return value, your only clue something went wrong is an informative warning message. 19:19
rakudo: say Int + 4; 19:20
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«4␤»
colomon rakudo: say Int() + 4;
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &Int␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/QvZ5vdcv4p␤»
colomon rakudo: my Int $a; say $a + 4;
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«4␤»
colomon ack!
your only clue is an UNinformative warning message. 19:21
or judging by the above result, no warning message at all, in the current Rakudo. 19:22
masak that *is* surprising. 19:24
perhaps that was put in because of the Str thing. 19:25
colomon I don't get a warning from p6eval or the REPL
masak rakudo: my Str $s; for 1..10 { $s ~= $_ }; say $s
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«12345678910␤»
colomon my $a; say $a ** 2; # does get a warning when run as a program.
masak here, it's entirely reasonable that Str "collapses" to "".
yes, but there it's untyped. 19:26
it's the difference between Any and Int.
colomon rakudo: my $a; say $a;
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
colomon rakudo: my Int $a; say $a;
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
colomon rakudo: my Str $a; say $a;
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
colomon look at that. 19:27
my Int $a; say $a ** 2; # no warning
rakudo: class A does Real { has $.n; method Bridge { $.n; } }; my A $a; say $a ** 2; 19:28
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Type objects are abstract and have no attributes, but you tried to access $!n␤ in 'A::Bridge' at line 22:/tmp/YRkZXiPvN1␤ in 'infix:<**>' at line 3715:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/YRkZXiPvN1␤»
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colomon my Rat $a; say $a ** 2; # hard error which ends program execution 19:34
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dalek osystem: 23aa896 | (Timothy Totten)++ | projects.list:
Added whitenoise to projects.list
 19:38
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supernovus tadzik: There, all my projects have a META.info now. I sent a pull request with the updated META.list file. 19:41
tadzik supernovus++ 19:42
awesome, let me pull this in
masak I'll see about doing the same tonight with my projects.
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supernovus phenny: tell moritz_ there is a bug fix on JSON::Tiny waiting in your pull requests. 19:46
phenny supernovus: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
colomon tadzik: I think all my projects have a META.info as well. Though I'm not 100% convinced I'm not forgetting a project or two. :) 19:47
tadzik colomon: you can see if there's anything in the SHELTER 19:48
colomon which is where?
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tadzik colomon: github.com/tadzik/ecosystem/blob/m.../META.list 19:51
look for the ones with SHELTER in path
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supernovus Gah, 1m16.339s to generate 3 example pages and the relevant index pages using my new static website generator... I think I need to do some optimization on the generation algorithm. Rakudo's speed is certainly it's biggest drawback at the moment :( 19:53
colomon tadzik: I believe Math-Vector, Math-Prime, and io-prompt are all up to date now.
jnthn supernovus: Is the code somewhere? 19:55
jnthn wonders what would make a website generator so slow... :| 19:56
colomon Rakudo can! ;)
supernovus jnthn: github.com/supernovus/whitenoise but I'm going to completely change how the generation calls are made, so that indexes are built once after all pages are generated, so if two pages are tagged with the same tag, that tags index is only built once.
jnthn colomon: :P
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colomon tadzik: mandelbrot has META.info now too. 20:02
tadzik colomon: I added you, supernovus and masak to my ecosystem fork, can you fix the list? 20:05
by "fix" I mean take the appropriate modules from the SHELTER 20:06
colomon How do I fix it? Is there an automatic way to do it?
tadzik well, you just edit the META.list file and remove the SHELTER/module directory 20:07
see the last commit by supernovus++
colomon is suddenly worried his brain is just not working today.
I can do that, I think. :) 20:08
tadzik wow, whitenoise looks impressive 20:10
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colomon tadzik: is there a way of checking to see if I've got the bits I've changed correct? 20:11
colomon does not like the idea of pushing to someone else's repo without having tests to run.
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tadzik colomon: hmm. You can ./update.pl, move the generated file to the neutro config dir and check if --list looks ok, or even if the modules install 20:12
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tadzik colomon: no worries, it's nothing critical, the whole thing is still experimental even compared to the existing ecosystem 20:13
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masak backlogs over the part where Layla_91 says she likes Camelia 20:16
have we had any female hacker in here saying that they *don't* like Camelia?
colomon tadzik: pushed without testing. :) 20:18
tadzik good :) 20:19
erm, I mean, exciting!
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masak I think a weekend of intense hacking by a group of 3..5 people would give us a really good start on STD_P5. 20:20
tadzik colomon: looks ok to me
masak question is, which other 2..4 people? :)
jnthn hides
tadzik masak: you mean, the Perl 5 Standard Grammar?
masak yes. 20:21
sorear masak: what weekend?
masak sorear: that's also a good question. some fitting weekend.
tadzik: in fact, I wouldn't mind leading (or being an active participant in) the group that finally puts Perl 5 on Parrot. 20:22
imagine, using nqp-rx to reimplement Goodenuf Perl 5!
tadzik /o/ woo-hoo
jnthn If you use nqp-rx, you might have it on more than just Parrot. :)
masak jnthn: \o\ woo-hoo! 20:23
tadzik ay, right!
Failed fetching github.com/colomon/raw/master/mand.../META.info
I love the Github 404 page
jnthn
.oO( PCT = Portable Compiler Toolkit? )
masak :D 20:24
masak always thought the "P" stood for "Patrick"
colomon tadzik: ooooo, for obvious reasons
tadzik si
wanna fix this?
colomon on it
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jnthn masak: Shhh...that's a secret. :P 20:24
colomon dang it, I got them all wrong
jnthn That 404 page rocks. It does still if you move your mouse around ont he image. 20:25
tadzik yeah
masak jnthn: oh, right. I forgot that part of The Plan wasn't to be disseminated.
oops
masak shuts up
jnthn :P 20:26
tadzik neutro is terribly slow after all the Improvements
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colomon tadzik: fix pushed 20:27
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supernovus tadzik: The nicest part about Improvements, is they all tend to make things slower ;-) 20:28
tadzik ;) 20:29
masak I'd disagree, but then I might be accused of being slow (without necessarily being improved).
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arnsholt masak: I might be interested in a STD_P5 hackathon 20:35
masak nice!
arnsholt Depending a bit on time and place and such, of course 20:36
masak it'll be heavily test-based, of course.
yes, it's depending a bit on time for me as well.
arnsholt Yeah, test based makes sense. With a bit of luck a fair amount of tests can be created by stealing tests from the P5 test suite
masak arnsholt: oh, you're thinking one might have an away-from-keyboard meeting? yes, that might be even more intensive. 20:37
arnsholt Yeah, an IRL hackathon should be more intense, but harder to arrange of course 20:38
masak aye.
why would I write C<$file.IO ~~ :e> when I can write C<$file.IO.e>? 20:40
arnsholt Brainfart? =)
masak no, I mean, why is the former the convention?
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masak just inertia? 20:41
arnsholt Oh, right
Yeah, I guess inertia might be an explanation
tadzik phenny: "inertia"?
phenny tadzik: Language guessing failed, so try suggesting one!
tadzik oh, it's to-English 20:42
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colomon speaking of inertia: why is it ~~ :e or .e instead of .exists? 20:44
tadzik buubot: print "Are you the one running Perl 5 code?"
masak colomon: oh, there's a possible advantage of the pair syntax. 20:45
colomon: ~~ :e & :d
buubot: ?eval print "OH HAI!\n"
buubot: eval print "OH HAI!\n" 20:46
colomon :d doesn't imply :e ?
masak colomon: it does. just an example :)
tadzik ...so what's "inertia" again? I see only the physics-related meanings
masak ~~ :d | :!e, then
tadzik: it's a metaphor for the physics meaning.
tadzik: "things moving in a straight line because there's nothing to stop them" 20:47
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moritz_ sorear: pong 20:47
phenny moritz_: 19:46Z <supernovus> tell moritz_ there is a bug fix on JSON::Tiny waiting in your pull requests.
masak or maybe "things not moving because the forces acting on them are smaller than the resistance".
moritz_ supernovus: I know
hugme: add supernovus to json 20:48
hugme hugs supernovus. Welcome to json!
buubot tadzik: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [prints it funny =( jsc told me 'new Boolean("x")'] [prints the last expression that] [prints whatever]
masak: OH HAI! 1
supernovus moritz_: thanks for the hug!
masak buubot: you're slow.
buubot masak: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [you're slow today,]
moritz_ supernovus: I'm currently a bit short on tuits, but feel free to apply yourself (I don't think I'll forget, but it might take some time)
arnsholt The borg approach to repo managment: You will be commiterified!
masak buubot: you're slow today
buubot masak: you're slow today, is buu abusing you again?
masak :) 20:49
moritz_ arnsholt: yes, learned that from au++
arnsholt Indeed. It's a part of the Perl 6 community I quite like 20:50
sorear moritz_: how do I enter p6eval's environment from a root shell on host04?
moritz_ sorear: chroot /chroot 20:51
sorear: and then su - p6eval
tadzik ~36% of the ecosystem is now using the new META.info format
colomon tadzik++
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tadzik once masak ports his, we're up to 51%. cosimo would be able to bump it by another 6-7%, and then I think all the Star modules will be available 20:54
masak is currently working on a tool to publish the p6cc solutions 20:55
moritz_ supernovus: sorry for being so unresponsive so far
apache? :-)
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supernovus moritz_: no worries, I know how busy things can get! 20:55
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tadzik masak: I hope you don't feel hurried constantly 20:56
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masak a little. but only because I'm eager to actually port my modules over to the META.info regime ;) 20:56
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tadzik :) 21:00
pardon me if you feel nagged
masak no worries. :)
dalek ast: 89c9e47 | (Fitz Elliott)++ | S03-operators/reduce-le1arg.t:
fix erroneous [^^] () test
 21:01
ast: 47ae049 | (Fitz Elliott)++ | S03-operators/short-circuit.t:
test infix:<^^>'s short circuiting
ast: e813e69 | (Fitz Elliott)++ | S03-operators/reduce-le1arg.t:
mark test for RT #65164
ast: e9cdf15 | (Fitz Elliott)++ | S03-metaops/reduce.t:
add tests for RT #65164 (chained-xor reduce: [^^])
ast: 98e39b7 | (Fitz Elliott)++ | S03-operators/short-circuit.t:
test for RT #73820 & RT #72826, return values of infix ^^
ast: c70eae3 | (Fitz Elliott)++ | S02-literals/quoting.t:
add test for RT #78874
ast: d96889b | (Fitz Elliott)++ | S05-capture/caps.t:
fix and unfudge tests for RT #75484
masak yay! commitflood! 21:02
fitz++
moritz_ felliott++ had a pull request with seven commits
masak excellent.
moritz_ and he now has commit access :-)
colomon \o/
masak seems like he should :D
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supernovus Well, that set of optimizations seems to have helped, went from 1m16.339s with the old page generation method to 0m41.936s with the new one. 21:05
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dalek kudo: c664e85 | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
parrot release is immanent, so bump PARROT_REVISION for testing
 21:07
moritz_ deosn't even know yet if rakudo compiles on that revision
jnthn moritz_: I can launch a build here with it to see. 21:08
moritz_ jnthn: would be nice
I'm building too, but quite on a different platform than you :-)
tadzik the --gen-exciting-parrot would be a nice LHF, no?
masak --gen-ex-parrot 21:09
jnthn -exciting- ? :)
colomon oh woah, release is this week? 21:10
masak @flies>>.time
jnthn colomon: Aye.
tadzik jnthn: the "ignore PARROT_REVISION and get me the latest" option
jnthn
.oO( --gen-terrifying-parrot )
 21:11
moritz_ seen pmichaud 21:12
aloha pmichaud was last seen in #perl6 5 days 2 hours ago saying "it's in S12, iirc".
jnthn wonders how many Rakudo releases between now and 6model landing
masak S12 can take quite a while to read through...
colomon 1? :)
jnthn colomon: No, though by the next Rakudo release work on Rakudo on 6model will be underway in a branch.
colomon that's nqp-rx / 6model or .net 6model? 21:14
jnthn colomon: On nqp-rx/nom's 6model implementation 21:15
colomon cool. 21:16
jnthn colomon: The process of getting Rakudo using 6model will break a bunch of Parrot dependencies we have now.
And thus make the latter easier.
But NQP on CLR (and/or JVM) needs to be able to bootstrap itself before putting Rakudo on them is really possible/sane.
tadzik hmm, will that mean PCT gets ported to .NET, JVM or something? 21:17
And if not, how will Rakudo on .NET use it? Will it use Parrot to parse and then generate a code for a different platform?
jnthn tadzik: Yes. The 6model repo already has a PAST compiler that ends up generating .Net code. 21:18
tadzik: And the same but to a lesser extent for the JVM
tadzik: At the moment it uses Parrot to parse and generate the code
But at some point it'll be capable of building itself
It's a cross-compiler at the moment 21:19
But that's because that's all it can be at the moment. :)
tadzik :) 21:20
jnthn Anyway, my dream is that if you write your grammar and actions in NQP, build PAST nodes, and implement your object model atop of the 6model primitives, then you have a pretty portable compiler. 21:22
diakopter niecza: 1.say 21:28
p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method keys in class Array␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/SAFE.setting line 922 (SAFE keys @ 2)␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Metamodel.pm6 line 192 (Metamodel Namespace.list_stash @ 7)␤ at
../home/p6eval/niecza/src/Metamodel.pm6 line 603 (Me…
tadzik niecza: say 1 21:29
p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method keys in class Array␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/SAFE.setting line 922 (SAFE keys @ 2)␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Metamodel.pm6 line 192 (Metamodel Namespace.list_stash @ 7)␤ at
../home/p6eval/niecza/src/Metamodel.pm6 line 603 (Me…
moritz_ rakudo: .say for 0..^3.3 21:30
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤» 21:31
moritz_ rakudo: say (0..^3.3).Numeric
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«4␤»
masak should I be worried that the next Parrot release is "immanent" instead of "imminent"? :P 21:36
dictionary.com defines "immanent" as "taking place withing the mind of the subject and having no effect outside it". 21:37
arnsholt Possibly
masak *within
tadzik --amend and --force!!!11
arnsholt Depends on how deconstructionist the current release manager is =)
masak maybe it's a quantum-cat thing, and I shouldn't ask.
lue hello worlds o/ 21:40
tadzik \o
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lue
.oO(Monty's Parrot: The parrot (is&!is) dead)
 21:42
tadzik . o O ( Parrot.new but Dead but Alive ) 21:44
masak lue: hello little wave function. 21:45
lue
.oO(rakudo: my $a = 3; say $a; OUTPUT«Null PMC access in xidhicoSd34␤3»)
 21:46
little wave function?
tadzik xidhico!
Looks like a Chinese dirty word
phenny: "xidhico"?
phenny tadzik: Language guessing failed, so try suggesting one!
masak lue: you said 'hello worlds', which I took to be an allusion to the many-worlds theory.
s/theory/hypothesis/ 21:47
tadzik: it can't be Mandarin, because a syllable can't end in a 'd'.
moritz_ s/hypthesis/interpretation/
masak moritz_: thanks.
masak is a quantum amateur :) 21:48
moritz_ too
lue accidental allusions are always amazing (along always are alliterations apparently)
masak lue: anyway, if "wavefunction" is a new concept to you, I suggest you check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment 21:49
moritz_ yeah, a friend of mine wrote a story with allusions to fairytales, and when we read it we found more allusions than she had put in :-) 21:50
the most fascinating aprt of the double slit experiment is that it works for single photons 21:51
masak moritz_: yes, that's just creepy.
it's like Nature is just showing off.
masak wonders if there's a subroutine in Nature called temporarily_switch_on_self_interference_for_those_double_slit_experimenters 21:52
lue I think I saw an animation of this experiment when I was 5 and thought Encarta (and the rest of Microsoft) was really AWESOME!!
Funny enough, it was title "Quantum Theory" or something and it was my favorite teaching animation out of all the others on Encarta :D 21:53
moritz_ masak: and it's comparably amazing that so little of that creepiness remains on the makroscopic scale
masak indeed. 21:54
lue a class inherets with is , regardless of whether it's inhereting a role or class, right? 21:56
jnthn lue: If you try to inherit from a role, it puns a class and inherits from that 21:57
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tadzik you don't inherit a Role 21:59
masak well, what jnthn said. 22:00
tadzik yeah
Tene The real world isn't creepy; the real world is very normal. :P
masak rakudo: role R {}; say R ~~ Role; class C {}; say C ~~ Class
p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤Could not find sub &Class␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/xDlACC5szA␤»
moritz_ Tene: IMHO "creepy" and "normal" don't contradict 22:01
Tene 'k
jnthn masak: If you want to do that, ask about it's .HOW
sorear spent a lot of last month trying to make sense of it all
masak jnthn: yes, but why is there a Role but no Class?
std: "is there a", Class, "?"
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
jnthn masak: That bothers we a tad too. :)
Tene lue: I highly recommend EY's Quantum Mechanics sequence for a good introduction: lesswrong.com/lw/r5/the_quantum_phy..._sequence/
jnthn masak: There may cease to be. 22:02
masak: Apart from...I need a way to multi-dispatch on "it's a role"...maybe. Hm. :)
lue this is what my question was for: gist.github.com/783583 [CAUTION: pretty silly reason] 22:05
jnthn moritz_: Rakudo build + test on Win32/MSVC looked OK
(with the latest PARROT_REVISION)
moritz_ jnthn: same on amd64 linux 22:06
jnthn OK, seems encouraging. :) 22:07
Tene I like EY's quotation from that sequence, "QM is counterintuitive, but that is a problem with your intuitions, not a problem with quantum mechanics."
masak 'night, #perl6
moritz_ 'night 22:08
jnthn o/, masak
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sorear Tene: neat. I wish I had seen this a month ago. 22:13
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Tene sorear: what happened a month ago? 22:25
sorear I started trying to figure out most of this on my own
Well, re-started
I've been trying for too long :/ 22:26
so maybe "sooner" in general
22:37 awwaiid joined 22:39 kaare_ left
lue .oO[ Almost seems like he's saying "I'm not going to tell you the keycode to this vault is 7-3-9-2-0" :) ] 22:48
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dalek p-rx/nom: f5e448a | jonathan++ | src/Regex/Cursor.pm:
To really get the benefits of 6model, we need to get Cursor etc into NQP. Plus it's just painful to not do so. :-) This is the start of that work. No doubt we'll end up with some chunks of PIR in the file too, but the ones done so far map very neatly to NQP.
 23:16
p-rx/nom: bf4218f | jonathan++ | CREDITS:
I probably contributed enough to nqp-rx/nom to have a CREDITS entry by now. :-)
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jnthn o/ pmichaud 23:19
coldhead good work 23:23
pmichaud aloha, for a moment
being called to dinner + errands :-|
so, bbl (or tomorrow) 23:24
jnthn OK.
I probably sleep in 30 mins or so.
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dalek p-rx/nom: 6677616 | jonathan++ | src/pmc/stable.pmc:
Ensure the method cache gets marked if present.
 23:32
p-rx/nom: 179a148 | jonathan++ | src/metamodel/how/NQPClassHOW.pm:
Get NQPClassHOW to publish a method cache.
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jnthn sleep & 23:47
TimToady jnthn++ has earned it 23:48
sjohnson heh 23:52
perl so far has accumulated me a few beer 6packs 23:59
thanks, TimToady

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