»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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lichtkind nom: say 1..5 00:13
p6eval nom ebd495: OUTPUT«1..5␤»
djanatyn :) 00:14
lichtkind nom: say (1..5)
p6eval nom ebd495: OUTPUT«1..5␤»
lichtkind nom: say list(1..5)
p6eval nom ebd495: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5␤»
lichtkind nom: say list(1,2...5)
p6eval nom ebd495: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5␤»
lichtkind nom: say list(0,1, $^a + $^b ...13)
p6eval nom ebd495: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$a'; expected Any but got Mu instead␤ in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1821␤ in <anon> at /tmp/6PUPDFS8t9:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/6PUPDFS8t9:1␤␤» 00:15
lichtkind nom: say list(0,1, * + * ...13)
p6eval nom ebd495: OUTPUT«0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13␤»
lichtkind nom: say list(1,2, * * * ... 32)
p6eval nom ebd495: OUTPUT«1 2 2 4 8 32␤»
lichtkind too weird 00:16
nom: say list(1,2, $^a * * ... 32) 00:17
p6eval nom ebd495: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$a'; expected Any but got Mu instead␤ in sub infix:<*> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1829␤ in whatevercode <anon> at /tmp/Hab2M6oaq0:1␤ in sub generate at src/gen/CORE.setting:6897␤ in sub coro at src/gen/CORE.setting:3728␤ in m…
lichtkind autogenerated positional should work here
niecza: say list(1,2, * * * ... 32) 00:18
p6eval niecza v8-65-g4e8d22a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'list' used at line 1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 685 (CORE die @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1136 (STD P6.comp_unit @ 36) ␤ …
lichtkind niecza: say list(1.. 32)
p6eval niecza v8-65-g4e8d22a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'list' used at line 1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 685 (CORE die @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1136 (STD P6.comp_unit @ 36) ␤ …
lichtkind good night 00:19
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ruz std: grammar G { <?.boo> } 00:23
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
ruz std: grammar G { <.?boo> }
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
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TimToady std: / <????????????????????????????????.boo> / 00:29
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse metachar at /tmp/HRCr2dzk1Z line 1:␤------> / ⏏<????????????????????????????????.boo> /␤Couldn't find final '>'; gave up at /tmp/HRCr2dzk1Z line 1:␤------> / <???⏏???????????????????????…
TimToady std: / <!!!!!!!!!.boo> / 00:30
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse metachar at /tmp/EQIJXwf3Pl line 1:␤------> / ⏏<!!!!!!!!!.boo> /␤Couldn't find final '>'; gave up at /tmp/EQIJXwf3Pl line 1:␤------> / <!!!⏏!!!!!!.boo> /␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 11…
TimToady std: / <!!.boo> /
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
TimToady std: / <!!!.boo> /
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse metachar at /tmp/oH9ajkwWs6 line 1:␤------> / ⏏<!!!.boo> /␤Couldn't find final '>'; gave up at /tmp/oH9ajkwWs6 line 1:␤------> / <!!!⏏.boo> /␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»…
TimToady std: / <!!!> /
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
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ruz TimToady: <.?boo> is incorrect syntax, right? 00:33
TimToady std: say $_.?foo
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
TimToady looks like an optional method call 00:34
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TimToady not sure what its semantics should be, probably fail the match if the .? doesn't find a method 00:34
this is unspecced though 00:35
ruz TimToady: but it's not a code block
TimToady it's just a method call to a grammar method/rule
ruz then <?boo> should be optional function/code call
TimToady <? means something else
ruz yes
TimToady <. means method call
ruz <foo> can call sub/method, right? 00:36
TimToady yes, but it also captures
<.foo> doesn't capture
ruz all this kinda inconsistent even if it has some background 00:37
TimToady we've had it many other inconsistent ways, and this seems to work pretty well :)
ruz std: /<.foo=.bar>/ 00:38
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
TimToady that's probably not doing what you think
std: /<.foo = .bar>/ 00:39
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/44tpUUQHa6 line 1:␤------> /<.foo =⏏ .bar>/␤Can't call method "from" on unblessed reference at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/STD.pm line 5378…
TimToady either that, or it's not doing what I think :)
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ruz just trying a few bits from weekend spec/nqp code reading 00:39
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TimToady yeah, that parse is probably a bit infelicitous... 00:47
method should not be delegating to assertion 00:51
ruz std: / <?.?foo> / 00:57
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse metachar at /tmp/ZT20RhddDu line 1:␤------> / ⏏<?.?foo> /␤Couldn't find final '>'; gave up at /tmp/ZT20RhddDu line 1:␤------> / <?.⏏?foo> /␤ expecting any of:␤ assertion␤ dotty me…
TimToady so <.?foo> is not being parsed like .?foo 00:58
ruz yep
TimToady if assertion:method parsed its own method, it would, and would also disallow <.foo=.bar>
so that's probably what oughta happen
niecza: / <.foo=.bar> / 00:59
p6eval niecza v8-65-g4e8d22a: ( no output )
ruz std: /<before>/ 01:06
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤before requires an argument at /tmp/HfQLJwiFpw line 1:␤------> /<before⏏>/␤ expecting assertion␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
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dalek ecza: 6c0c55a | sorear++ | docs/announce.v9:
Add v9 announce
 01:15
sorear request for comments 01:16
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TimToady looks pretty good 01:30
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colomon so, slightly random point... I'm trying to run the ABC module in nom, and I'm getting an error. Okay, that's totally expected. What I hadn't expected is that the fatal error is getting printed to STDOUT, not STDERR. 01:49
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djanatyn Is it currently possible to generate a windows executable for a perl6 program? 02:58
Or am I going to have to wait a few years for that? 02:59
plobsing djanatyn: how "real" does the executable need to be? 03:02
it should be fairly simple to make a stub executable that unpacks a perl6 implementation and your sourcecode and then executes it inplace 03:03
fwiw, that's how parrot generates rakudo's perl6 executable 03:04
more or less
djanatyn plobsing: How trivial would that be, and how large would the resulting executable (and any other files required) be, at minimum?
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tadzik hello #perl6 03:08
plobsing djanatyn: there would be no other files (it self-extracts everything it needs) 03:09
as a result, probably very large
djanatyn Any estimates, in terms of megabytes? :) 03:10
I know py2exe, which turns python programs into windows executables, does something similar. 03:11
plobsing well, rakudo clocks in at 10M right off the bat
djanatyn: I was thinking of PAR 03:12
djanatyn It includes a tiny python distribution with the file.
Ah, I played with that for a bit.
I could never get it to work >_>
eventually, I had a friend help me out.
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djanatyn Hmm. 03:13
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plobsing how important is it to generate a true executable? you could always change the filetype association appropriately. 03:16
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djanatyn So, when you're using string interpolation and put a statement inside a bracket in perl6, it executes the code inside and replaces it with the return value? 03:31
PerlJam djanatyn: aye 03:32
djanatyn I was playing around with it, and if you put a statement inside with side effects that alter other variables, the return value is what is represented inside the string, but the other variables persist with whatever effect the statement had on them.
THat's cool.
I'm starting to think Perl 6 has the coolest string interpolation, like TimToady said :D
PerlJam Perl 6 is cool in many respects.
djanatyn Indeed. 03:39
sorear yeah, we almost don't need (s)printf 03:41
PerlJam almost
sorear Does Windows have a good solution for third-party shared libraries yet? 03:42
sorear wants to see an 8kb stub-executor that can be attached to Perl 6 programs and functions by downloading parrot.dll and perl6.pbc from the Internet 03:43
iff they are not already cached on the user's machine somewhere 03:44
without OS support it would have to be bigger, and less correctly working
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mberends many Windows applications begin with a setup.exe sized 1~3MB on your machine, which then phones home and pulls in the full product. 03:50
sorear djanatyn: incidentally, niecza v8 can create Windows .exe files
djanatyn :o 03:51
that's awesome.
One of the biggest difficulties I've had with programming is porting quickly and cleanly.
sorear not strictly standalone as they require at least 3 of the Niecza .dlls
note, this feature is not in v9
djanatyn I write code that works great and fine on my computer, but I can't get it working anywhere else.
sorear djanatyn: the technical term for that is "deployment"
porting is when you modify your program so that it will run on different *kinds* of computer 03:52
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rlpowell p6eval: "hello { my $foo = 'world' }"; 03:53
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rlpowell perl6: say "hello { my $foo = 'world' }"; 03:53
p6eval pugs, rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«hello world␤»
..niecza v8-66-g6c0c55a: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $foo is declared but not used at /tmp/gGonNc_5tQ line 1:␤------> say "hello { my ⏏$foo = 'world' }";␤␤hello world␤»
PerlJam it's really weird to me that pugs gets that one right.
sorear hello and welcome, rlpowell 03:54
djanatyn Yep, that's the way it works, rlpowell.
He didn't believe me about string interpolation in perl 6 :D
rlpowell wow. My respect for p6 has just dropped through the floor.
djanatyn ...interesting.
rlpowell Sorry, I don't mean to be offensive, but without context that's really awful.
PerlJam rlpowell: why is that?
rlpowell Can someoen explain to me why that interpolation occurs, and how that doesn't boil down to "You can't ever have any special characters in any string ever because all strings interpolate theentire language? 03:55
I have no p6 context *at all*, so this is kind of drive-by dickery on my part; blame djanatyn :)
djanatyn I'm just spreading the perl 6 gospel! ^_^;
PerlJam rlpowell: the interpolation occurs because that's how it's designed.
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sorear Perl historically has had magic characters in "" strings 03:56
rlpowell Well, yes, I caught that. But is it just "any P6 in your strings gets evaluated"?, or is there more to it?
sorear Perl 6 has more of them
PerlJam rlpowell: and not ll strings interpolate the entire language. I'm not even sure what you mean by that.
sorear rlpowell: only the left brace introduces statements
djanatyn rlpowell: The P6 has to be within brackets.
ermm
rlpowell OK.
djanatyn curly braces
PerlJam rlpowell: and P6 inside of {} inside of double quoted strings gets evaled
rlpowell How do you avoid that? 03:57
PerlJam avoid what?
djanatyn rlpowell: I imagine there's an escape character
soh_cah_toa use single quotes?
sorear rlpowell: \{, or use single quotes
djanatyn or, you could just use regular strings.
single quotes, I mean. non-interpolating.
rlpowell What if I want variable interpolation, but also a literal { ?
sorear \{
PerlJam rlpowell: \{
rlpowell Got it. Thanks.
djanatyn Yeah, that seems very reasonable to me.
rlpowell I'd prefer a 2-character intro, but enh. 03:58
djanatyn there are sigils that have to be escaped - the curly braces isn't exactly a common thing you would put in a string.
PerlJam rlpowell: Ruby is very similar except they use #{...} in double quoted strings.
sorear it's also possible to pick and choose what kinds of interpolation you want, but I've only wanted to use that once.
niecza: my $var = 5; say q:s"$var { 2 + 2 }" 03:59
p6eval niecza v8-66-g6c0c55a: OUTPUT«5 { 2 + 2 }␤»
djanatyn Ah, cool.
sorear niecza: my $var = 5; say qs"$var { 2 + 2 }" # I wonder
rlpowell PerlJam: Yes, I rather prefer the second character there; having the { by itself be your metacharacter just seems to be asking to have to quote a lot.
p6eval niecza v8-66-g6c0c55a: OUTPUT«5 { 2 + 2 }␤»
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djanatyn niecza: my $var = 5; say q:y"$var y 2 + 2 y" 04:00
rlpowell But that's a fairly minor issue; what I thought was happening originally was a lot worse. :)
p6eval niecza v8-66-g6c0c55a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Unrecognized quote modifier: y at /tmp/5yqmsuj8Lt line 1:␤------> my $var = 5; say q⏏:y"$var y 2 + 2 y"␤␤Potential difficulties:␤ $var is declared but not used at /tmp/5yqmsuj8Lt line 1:␤------> my […
PerlJam rlpowell: well ... so far it hasn't been a problem. :-)
djanatyn ...I suppose that's not how it works. ^_^;
PerlJam djanatyn: no.
djanatyn: the adverb describes what things can/can't be interpolated.
djanatyn rlpowell: Did you think that any text that perl 6 recognized as a statement inside an interpolating string would be evaluated and substited with the return value?
rlpowell djanatyn: I thought it was evalling all strings, yes. 04:01
djanatyn PerlJam: So, in the case of q:s, what can and cannot be interpolated?
rlpowell: Oof. That would be...just wrong.
sorear djanatyn: scalars
djanatyn ah 04:02
sorear djanatyn: like in Perl 5, q"" is the same as ''
rlpowell < djanatyn> rlpowell: Oof. That would be...just wrong. -- You understand my horror now?
sorear q:s or qs is '', with $foo interpolation
djanatyn rlpowell: Yep.
rlpowell: Do you still think Ruby's string interpolation is better?
sorear djanatyn: there's also qa (arrays), qh(hashes), qc (closures i.e. brace groups), qf (functions), qb (backslash escapes), maybe more 04:03
PerlJam sorear: does niecza grok the full set of adverbs?
oh, I'm guessing not :) 04:04
rlpowell Yes. I strongly prefer 2-char intros. Because for any singlee special character, sooner or later I've had to write text that has a bunch of them, and quoting them all has driven me nuts. IMO you shuold never have single-charter interp in a general languages general string syntax, ever.
sorear djanatyn: you can combine them: q:s:c[ $foo { bar } but not @baz ]
PerlJam For the full list see S02:3740
rlpowell Erm, that was all to djanatyn ^^ ; the rest of you can ignore it.
sorear PerlJam: niecza doesn't grok :x
I can't remember if it does :p 04:05
djanatyn should get a niecza setup to play with
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sorear niecza: say qp|/etc/passwd|.perl 04:05
p6eval niecza v8-66-g6c0c55a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method postcircumfix:<( )> in class CallMethod␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaActions.pm6 line 970 (NieczaActions C392_ANON @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaActions.pm6 line 979 (NieczaActions NieczaActions…
sorear well, that's an interesting error
rlpowell: mm. Not a fan of \n are you? 04:06
PerlJam rlpowell: as I've said ... so far it hasn't been a problem. And several of us have been writing Perl 6 for a few years now. 04:07
sorear niecza: say '$x $y $z \qq[{2 + 2}] $a $b $c'
p6eval niecza v8-66-g6c0c55a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Action method backslash:qq not yet implemented at /tmp/DAvvOsOyqP line 1:␤------> say '$x $y $z \qq[{2 + 2}]⏏ $a $b $c'␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting lin…
sorear bah
rlpowell: according to spec, in a '' context you can still use general interpolation but it requires the \qq intro 04:08
PerlJam rlpowell: also, there's a strong correspondence between {} and "block of executable code" in Perl 6.
sorear nom: say '$x $y $z \qq[{2 + 2}] $a $b $c' 04:09
p6eval nom ebd495: OUTPUT«$x $y $z \qq[{2 + 2}] $a $b $c␤»
sorear perl6: say '$x $y $z \qq[{2 + 2}] $a $b $c'
p6eval niecza v8-66-g6c0c55a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Action method backslash:qq not yet implemented at /tmp/ydX4EhljGp line 1:␤------> say '$x $y $z \qq[{2 + 2}]⏏ $a $b $c'␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting lin…
..rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«$x $y $z \qq[{2 + 2}] $a $b $c␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«$x $y $z 4 $a $b $c␤»
sorear heh, looks like pugs alone gets it right.
pugs++
PerlJam pugs++ indeed.
sorear btw, v9 announced. 04:10
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PerlJam All we need now is audrey :) 04:11
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sorear yeah, well 04:12
Rakudo is the only Perl 6 implementation that will survive past 2016 since Rakudo alone has attracted a second developer
PerlJam sorear: Are you already getting burnt out on Niecza? 04:13
sorear PerlJam: I wouldn't go so far as to say burnt out, but the enthusiasm is certainly fading. 04:14
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PerlJam I doubt if I'll ever be a developer for niecza, but I'm certainly starting to use it more often. 04:17
mberends sorear: that would be very sad. Please do $whatever-works-for-you to avoid burnout, many people are just beginning to become interested in Niecza. 04:18
PerlJam sorear: what mberends said!
tadzik Niecza v9 no longer supports .NET. That's interesting
Tene orly? what's niecza running on instead?
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mberends mono, but I saw some Visual Studio files from diakopter++ in Niecza very recently 04:20
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mberends sorear: imho gaining file access tests versus losing .NET compatibility is a poor trade, especially in the context of wanting to attract more users and contributors. I'd buy a regression on that any time. 04:26
sorear that's what I wanted to hear
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djanatyn hmm 04:33
mberends sorear: regarding startup speed, would it be feasible to make a small loader daemonize a full Niecza process at first execution, and then connect to it as a client in subsequent executions? I could imagine doing it in C, not sure about CLR. 04:34
djanatyn well, I've been using mostly ghci and python for odd jobs around the desktop - just figuring out random questions and such.
I'm going to try to actively use rakudo for those now.
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tadzik cool 04:37
mberends: I could imagine mono itself having that feature, maybe
mberends it would be a bit like mod_perl. You'd have to be thorough about cleaning up data after each execution, and be very careful to avoid memory leaks. 04:40
sorear mberends: that could work, but it's far too inelegant for my tastes 04:41
mberends :) there is that
sorear the major problem is that compiled-niecza is too big; the largest part of startup cost is spent loading assemblies 04:42
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Tene I notice in S02, there's a few comments on macros for quote-like operations, but none discuss how to add a quoting adverb. 04:42
sorear I think it might be reasonable to have some kind of high-level bytecode for regexes
Tene: you need to augment the Q slang and add a multi candidate to tweak 04:43
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Tene ahh, Q adverbs are roles applied to to the quoter there, in STD 04:54
so, augment slang Q { role A0 { token escape:sym<...> { ... } } } 04:55
oh, no, tweak 04:56
tweak just mixes in those roles 04:57
TimToady well, STD does the mixin using Moose internally
Tene TimToady: one thing that's not clear to me at all is, given a grammar modification like that, how do I indicate how it should be compiled? I assume I'd use a quasi somewhere, but where do I add that? 04:58
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Tene or, should I be defining that with a macro instead? 05:01
sorear Tene: I would think that if you are modifying the grammar, you need to specify how it is compiled by modifying the actions. *handwave* 05:02
TimToady I don't really know what you're trying t odo
sorear or, inline the &make call within a {} block
tadzik nqp: say("=begin END" ~~ /'=begin' [ <!before \h* \n> || { say "noez!" }]/) # huh? 05:06
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 1␤»
tadzik oh, ok
sorear TimToady: I'd like to see a complete example of a grammar modification that, say, makes "\ux" eq "X", "\uyy" eq "Yy" 05:08
TimToady: obviously part of the solution is augment slang Q { token backslash:u { <sym> . } } 05:09
TimToady: but where do I put the code that generates the uc call?
Tene that's approximately the question I was asking, yes 05:12
dalek ecza: 00ca678 | sorear++ | src/ (6 files):
mergeback
 05:14
ecza: 5c9b8fd | sorear++ | src/niecza:
Implement \qq[] escape syntax
sorear 1 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-)
I love these commits
tadzik (: 05:15
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mberends sorear: is niecza/docs/compiler.pod out of date? 'Perl 5 pipeline', 'viv-generated parser'? I'll edit it if you give me just a few hints what to say. 05:23
sorear mberends: yow! almost none of what's there is useful 05:28
mberends we could simply delete most of it and start afresh 05:29
sorear probably for the best
it's so embarrasing to forget a doc even exists
mberends ok, I'll write something under the forgiveness license 05:30
sorear "forgiveness > permission"?
mberends yes
I know you'll correct whatever is wrong 05:31
breakfast & 05:33
dalek kudo/nom: 53b1d8f | tadzik++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
Fix S02-whitespace_and_comments/begin_end_pod.t
 05:35
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dalek ecza: 1b855f7 | sorear++ | src/niecza:
Fix qp|| syntax
 06:14
sorear out 06:20
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dalek ecza: ce20cf8 | (Martin Berends)++ | docs/compiler.pod:
[docs/compiler.pod] begin refresh of content
 07:07
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sorear mberends: sleep is not cooperating - consider me available 07:22
sorear is now attempting to make sense of nom's native types implementation 07:23
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sorear nom: my int $x; my $y := $x; $y = 5; say $x 07:44
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤ in <anon> at /tmp/M07XTKmea6:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/M07XTKmea6:1␤␤»
sorear nom: my int $x = 42; sub foo($y is rw) { $y++ }; foo($x); say $x; 07:45
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤ in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2127␤ in sub foo at /tmp/EamQxNR_8R:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/EamQxNR_8R:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/EamQxNR_8R:1␤␤»
sorear Correct?
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mberends surely wrong, it looks NYI 07:46
sorear making that work would involve a lot of performance-sapping complications 07:47
r/w autoboxing requires extending the life of the lexpad indefinitely 07:48
and it will expose inlining behavior 07:49
loop (my $x = 0; $x < 10; $x++) { my int $y = $x; secretly_saves_a_reference($y); }
how many distinct references are saved? 07:50
where "distinct" is taken in the sense of operational distinguishability
mberends 10
sorear grats, you've just broken the single largest optimization in niecza 07:52
mberends native type are not going to perform faster than builtin types because of all this. The reason to use them has more to do with native code interop (structs etc).
sorear reusing lexical slots around loops is *huge*
mberends I cannot imagine how the code to reuse then would work 07:54
*them 07:55
sorear mberends: them=?
mberends lexical slots
sorear I think I understand now 07:59
mberends in !compile, where do the stages in @$.stages come from? 08:02
sorear the constructor 08:03
src/niecza line 168
moritz doesn't see how one can take a reference to a native int at all
sorear that code is slightly vestigal; I have an eye to removing the stage system 08:04
moritz good morning btw
sorear moritz: (CallFrame,Int) pair
mberends gm moritz
sorear o/ moritz
moritz huh. 08:05
you can't bind to a nativly-typed lexical, afaict
and natives are passed by value
so all you get out of callframe.my<$y> is an int 08:06
sorear *currently* natives are passed by value
moritz not a reference to an int
sorear I think mberends wants natives to be passed by reference
mberends certainly when we get to structs
sorear we want has int $.foo is rw to DWIM 08:07
moritz oh. 08:08
I think that'd come at too high a price. 08:09
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sorear moritz, mberends: I'd like the two of you to come to a consensus before I implement anything :D 08:13
moritz :-) 08:14
I can see how has int $.thing is rw is desirable for NCI
but maybe we need some cheating magic for that 08:15
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mberends I think native types are not here for performance reasons. We have no use cases yet, but NCI will be the kind of application. Maybe Buf containing bytes has some overlap as well. 08:16
moritz I do think that performance is a major reason for native types. 08:17
mberends we should consider example usage first, then consider the spec, then implement.
moritz maybe we can cheat ourselves a way out
we could have a kind of Int rw-proxy 08:18
sorear moritz: in particular I want your thoughts on mberends' reply to irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-08-30#i_4344732
moritz that stores a reference to the object which has the int slot, and the slot offset
sorear moritz: that's what I meant by a (CallFrame,Int) pair 08:19
moritz sorear: ah.
sorear: if we all that just for user-space objects with int slots, and not for lexpads, we can still get lots of optimizations 08:21
sorear the most important thing we can't get, is loop optimization
moritz IMHO it's OK to forbid 'is rw' on native routine parameters -- if you want that kind of magic, you use a boxed type instead
sorear but on reflection that isn't necessarily a big loss
since you can always hoist variables out of loops, C89-style 08:22
a loop body with no native variables doesn't suffer the unique storage penalty
even if it closes over native variables
did that make any sense
mberends only if you can *always* hoist, I'm not sure how that works 08:23
sorear mberends: I mean manual hoisting
mberends ok, I get it
moritz doesn't 08:25
but that's probably OK
mberends I think it means the "my int $y" is repositioned before the loop and "$y = $x" remains inside the loop. 08:27
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lue [looking at old euler problems in mu] what's Benchmark, and why am I expected to have it? 09:31
moritz lue: it's probably one of the old pugs-based modules that is also included in mu
lue that'd make sense, considering the plethora of /usr/bin/env pugs shebangs in those problems :) 09:32
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moritz (they are probably in ext/ ) 09:35
lue is the inability to accept the line module Benchmark-0.1; nom's fault? [I have a feeling it is]
moritz lue: no, the naming spec has changed
iirc
lue ah, one would do well to s/-0.1/:ver<0.1>/, correct? :) 09:36
moritz thinks so
lue I'm glad I got bored and decided to peruse mu [specifically the euler problems] . It's like an archaeological dig! :) 09:38
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lue [I have the urge to upgrade the Pod in Benchmark to Pod6. I think I shall do so] 09:41
moritz lue: feel free to go wild in mu
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mberends :) 09:42
lue
.oO(just not "decimate entire subdirectories" wild, I would imagine ...)
moritz lue: well, it would make sense to leave misc/dalek-* in tact 09:43
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moritz lue: and camelia should be preserved 09:43
lue: otherwise much of mu is wasteland 09:44
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lue I'd only do it if the subdirectory were named something like "remove-after-Jan-13-2001" . Other than that, I'd reach for Community Consensus™ first 09:44
.oO(then again, f>p)
 09:45
moritz and it's version-controlled after all.
mberends Citizen Lue is a Good Citizen indeed 09:46
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lue [S26.html] somehow, I don't think the original header was titled "The FormattingCode<121451920> block" 09:56
Benchmark coughs on this line: my @s = (time, times); I wonder what 'times' once meant [I know what 'time' means] 09:59
At least the module can be loaded, and it doesn't choke on the Pod (AFAICT). I think I should commit, and worry about the *code* working later :) 10:05
mberends lue: perldoc -f times
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lue let me guess, it's one of those things that's "the same as it was in P5", so it wasn't mentioned in the synopses (from what I could grep, at least) 10:06
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mberends good guess 10:06
lue
.oO(I'm compelled to give 'times' a more descriptive name, but can't think of one. So I'll drop the compellation(?))
 10:08
mberends yes, definitely drop it. that name is set in stone by decades of tradition. 10:09
lue Yeah, it was a gut "that isn't very descriptive" reaction. But it's not worth the electricity used for the last thought bubble (nor is it worth the electricity for this message) 10:14
dalek : 74d2344 | lue++ | ext/Benchmark/lib/Benchmark.pm:
Modernized name of module Benchmark and turned POD in it to Pod6

Specifically I changed the name Benchmark-0.1 to Benchmark:ver<0.1>, which allows it load properly. Also I changed all the POD in the module to Pod6, getting rid of all those C<=cut>s and semanticizing most of it in the process.		 10:17
mberends lue++
lue whoops, s/it load/it to load/ [ah well, too late and doesn't matter all that much] 10:18
Of course, if you want Benchmark to *work*, you'll have to wait until nom supports C<times>.
mberends yeah, that's kind of the point of Benchmark, you can't really comment it out. I'll have a look later today at whether it's easily doable, I've been programming time functions quite a lot recently. 10:21
just getting my head around Niecza's internal architecture atm, can't easily put this down to resume later. 10:23
lue I have a feeling I'm going to get a kick out of spelunking in mu . Alas, it's almost 03:30 in the morning, so I need to go to bed in a minute
[wouldn't want to go to bed at dawn...]
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lue goodnight all o/ 10:49
mberends o/
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dalek ecza: ec4c616 | (Martin Berends)++ | docs/compiler.pod:
[docs/compiler/pod] rewrite up to the beginning of CLRBackend
 11:00
mberends lunch &
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mls moring perl6! 11:22
daxim lies!
mls ok, afternoon then... 11:23
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gfldex cant we flattening earth? would solve quite a few problems 11:29
daxim www.cubicearth.com/ 11:40
gfldex that would be a start 11:42
sjn remembers alt.pave.the.earth 11:43
colomon but a cubic earth would have eight corners -- and everyone knows the earth has only four! 11:45
mberends do you mean the north, south, east and west poles? 11:46
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colomon mberends: not at all. 11:49
mberends it figures, a compass has four points
colomon One corner of the earth is Fogo Island, Newfoundland. I don't know where the others are off the top of my head.
Specifically Brimstone Head. 11:51
www.newfoundlandlabrador.com/PlanYo...ail/210426
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mberends I learn something new every day 11:53
colomon actually, google searches is not providing any verification from that other than Newfoundland tourism promotions... 11:56
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[Coke] /waay 12:08
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[Coke] nom: say "forgiveness" > "permission" 13:43
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
[Coke] aha! 13:44
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JimmyZ nom: say "True" > "False" 13:59
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
plobsing nom: say "up" == "down" 14:08
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
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tadzik humms the Pirates of the Carribean "Up is Down" theme 14:10
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tadzik lue: you're aware of the perlpilot/benchmark module? 14:13
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colomon hi all nomsters. any idea why 14:45
my $match = ABC::Grammar.parse($*IN.slurp, :rule<tune_file>, :actions(ABC::Actions.new));
would get the error "too many named arguments: 1 passed, 0 used"
? 14:46
moritz colomon: :actions NYI 14:47
colomon ah
so the ABC module is a lost cause at the moment, then
moritz aye :(
as is JSON::Tiny
colomon :( 14:53
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donri wtf @ "up" == "down"; lemme guess it's a numeric compare and both evalulate to zero? 14:57
JimmyZ nom: say "up" eq "down' 14:58
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "say \"up\" e"␤»
JimmyZ nom: say "up" eq "down"
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
donri ya I know :)
tadzik nom: say +"up", +"down" 14:59
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«00␤»
donri nom: say 42 == "42 things I dare say!"
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'Numeric'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu, Mu %_)␤␤ in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:515␤ in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1873␤ in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1873␤ in <anon> at /tmp/2…
JimmyZ nom: say "42" == "42 things I dare say!" 15:00
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'Numeric'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu, Mu %_)␤␤ in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:515␤ in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1873␤ in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1873␤ in <anon> at /tmp/w…
moritz nom: say "42 things".Numeric.WHAT
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: say "42" == "42 things I dare say!"
p6eval rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
colomon nom: say "42".Numeric.WHAT
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
JimmyZ LHF, me thinks 15:03
moritz well, according to latest #perl6 think, "foo".Numeric should also fail() 15:04
but we don't have good dFailure handling in place
JimmyZ so "42" == "42" will fail? 15:05
moritz no
JimmyZ "foo".Int won't fail, I guess 15:06
moritz just strings that don't contain numbers should fail on .Numeric
JimmyZ o
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JimmyZ I don't like that 15:06
does it meant "up' == "down" will fail? 15:07
s/'/"/
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JimmyZ I don't expect "Whatever user input strings".Numeric makes my programs fails 15:13
daxim JUST LIKE JAVA 15:14
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JimmyZ JAVA fails? 15:14
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daxim download.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/a...ption.html 15:17
for most beginning programmers, it's the first annoyance in a long long series.
JimmyZ does it mean java fails too? 15:19
moritz it dies 15:20
JimmyZ throw a Exception doesn't mean die, I think 15:22
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JimmyZ Is there a Exception class in core setting? 15:26
moritz nom: say Exception 15:27
p6eval nom 53b1d8: OUTPUT«Exception()␤»
JimmyZ oh I don't see it in perlcabal.org/syn/S32/Exception.html 15:28
moritz yes, there's some mismatch between rakudo and spec
JimmyZ aye
moritz which I plan to resolve one way or another soonish
either Exception becomes X::Base in rakudo, or the other way round in the spec 15:29
bbkr_ rakudo: Exception.new("e").throw
p6eval rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Not a throwable object␤ in main program body at line 1:src/metamodel/RoleToInstanceApplier.nqp␤»
JimmyZ will there be a plan throw a Exception other than fails in the core setting ? 15:30
moritz JimmyZ: I can't parse that question
JimmyZ will there be a plan throw a Exception instead of fails in the core setting ?
moritz JimmyZ: repeating it doesn't make it easier to understand
JimmyZ hmm 15:31
moritz sorry, wasn't repeated verbatimly
but I still don't know what it means :(
JimmyZ sorry, my poor english
moritz what bbkr_ tried should work 15:32
bbkr_ should I report a bug?
JimmyZ will strings that don't contain numbers should throw a Exception instead of fail on .Numeric?
mberends I think JimmyZ meant, will there be a plan to use 'throw' instead of 'fail'?
moritz JimmyZ: no 15:33
bbkr_: not necessary
bbkr_: it's on my agned
*agenda
moritz can't type
bbkr_ moritz++
JimmyZ I just realized core-setting won't use Exception class 15:34
TimToady I don't see that; a failure is just a lazily thrown exception 15:35
JimmyZ which is in flood in java
TimToady throwing exceptions eagerly is bad for parallel processing 15:36
JimmyZ agreed
TimToady see for example S03:3366 15:37
there is no exact definition for "mass production" yet, but certainly hyper is one of them 15:38
jnthn evening, #perl6 15:39
jnthn is back from disappearing :)
mberends o/ jnthn, welcome back!
jnthn o/ mberends
colomon \o
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TimToady you should throw an exception only when the program is defective, not when the data is defective; (not handling defective data is one way of making the program defective, of course) 15:43
and languages that throw exceptions at the end of a list are nuts, since having an end does not make a list defective 15:46
bbkr_ agree, pythonisms like StopIteration exception are weird 15:48
mberends TimToady++ # throw or fail should not be a structured programmer's goto
bbkr_ mberends: sorry about server downtime yesterday, some modifications on power grid were made here. it should be fine from now on. 15:53
mberends :) no probs, thanks
TimToady that's not to say that control exceptions don't exist, but it's more like a fatal exception is just a specific subclass of control exception that CATCH knows how to deal with 16:00
jnthn wonders how the new categorize fits in with classify 16:01
oh, I see it...
:) 16:02
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moritz jnthn: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-08-29#i_4341153 might interest you 16:57
lakatos Hey guys
I'm thinking of learning Perl
Is Perl 6 a safe bet?
:D
mberends I wouldn't bet *against* it 16:58
lakatos So how should I go about learning this language then? 16:59
mberends try using it to write what you like anyway, get guidance here or from references on perl.org 17:00
bbkr_ lakatos: a lot of languages copied Perl in past 20 years, and a lot of languages will copy Perl6 in next 20 years :) go for it!
sjn thinks there's a good chance most people might become better programmers in general by learning Perl 6
jnthn moritz: Thanks for the pointer. 17:01
bbkr_ lakatos: the best way to learn is to write some perl6 modules. learning without target is hard. take a look at modules.perl6.org/ , check what is missint and try to implement it. 17:02
lakatos What I'm asking is where can I find a book or something :P
mberends lakatos: the biggest collection of little Perl 6 examples, and how they compare to other languages rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Perl_6
lakatos: explore perl6.org
lakatos Does Perl 6 have macros yet? 17:03
bbkr_ lakatos: book is here - github.com/perl6/book/downloads
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bbkr_ Please define "macro" 17:04
mberends Rakudo might get macros soon, masak++ is planning to implement some (or all) of the spec
lakatos bbkr_: Let's just say programs that write programs 17:05
Su-Shee lakatos: I think you want to read higher order perl and learn perl 5 first. ;) 17:06
lakatos bbkr_: Basically lisp-style macros
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lakatos Su-Shee: I'm still not sure yet. Still weighing my options for now 17:07
mberends lakatos: that's what masak++ will be producing
Su-Shee lakatos: it'll make learning perl 6 much easier. 17:08
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lakatos Well, seeing how all I really want is to, well, learn regular expressions, I guess I'll give Perl 5 a quick run 17:10
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masak hi, #perl6. 17:22
colomon o/
masak sorear++ # v9
colomon is phasers in 98, or did it get rescheduled?
masak yes :)
colomon errrr..... 17:23
mberends still in 98, sorear++ needs his schedule irl to stabilize
masak oh, right. that's what we decided. 17:24
mberends: yes. I'm going to implement macros in Rakudo. I'm pretty excited about it. 17:30
arnsholt I think any sane person should be excited about your macro work 17:32
++masak
masak who knows, being insane might even heighten the excitement! 17:35
colomon masak++ 17:36
jnthn oh, #phasers... 17:49
I guess my report will be short this week. :/
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colomon ack, sure seems like roles would make my current $work task 90% easier. (and just for masak, I'm working on writing tests...) 18:01
masak \o/
did you mean "macros"?
colomon no, I meant roles. I'm programming in C++ 18:02
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masak ah. 18:04
anyway, good that you're writing tests.
colomon it just sucks they are such a pain in the neck to write here. 18:05
one of those situations where I'm staring at screens of code going "That one be three lines of p6...." 18:06
masak or three characters of APL :P 18:07
colomon doubt it, it's a text processing issue
masak (only three characters, but they *say so much*) 18:08
colomon read through the log being generated and make sure the info I just added to the log file is present
It means overriding the logging class for the test 18:10
whereas in p6, I believe I could pretty easily just mixin the one method that needs to change. 18:11
and naturally the text searching involved would be an order of magnitude simpler 18:14
masak naturally. 18:18
pmichaud good afternoon, #perl6
phenny pmichaud: 29 Aug 12:46Z <[Coke]> ask pmichaud if that grant thing is still ongoing and if I should poke him about it.
masak pmichaud! \o/ 18:19
colomon o/
mberends hello pmichaud
pmichaud phenny tell Coke yes, it's still ongoing, and consider me poked.
phenny: tell Coke yes, it's still ongoing, and consider me poked.
phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when Coke is around.
18:30 Kivutarrr joined
masak Kivutarrr: \o 18:30
Kivutarrr Hi all :)
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Kivutarrr how is perl6 going? 18:30
moritz it runs slowly, but it is developed fast :-) 18:31
masak I was going to answer "we don't know, we're in the echo chamber!" 18:32
moritz: if we magically had a Perl 6.0.0 implementation around, I bet work would proceed real fast. ;)
Kivutarrr :) 18:33
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moritz in unrelated news I'm working on a generic backend API for a blog engine (currently in perl 5 though) 18:38
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moritz for testing, I'm implementing an "each blog post is stored in a separate file" backend 18:39
want to a SQL backend later
masak sounds interesting.
except for the Perl 5 part, which was a letdown :P
moritz I'm also consider writing a proof of concept frontend
masak: consider it the "plant to throw one away" :-) 18:40
colomon masak: oooo, my test is only about 75% written, and it's already found a bug in my new code
masak moritz: remind me never to let you take care of my plants. :P
moritz reminds masak to never let him take care of masak's plants 18:41
masak saw that one coming
it was all planted ahead. 18:42
plobsing I'm trying to understand how Perl 6 exceptions are supposed to work. I tried nopaste.snit.ch/76050 with rakudo, but it didn't work.
is this my fault or rakudo's?
masak plobsing: your bug report lacks the field "expected". please try again. 18:43
plobsing heh. I'm expecting it to print *something*
it doesn't
masak come to think of it, it also lacks the field "observed".
plobsing there is no output 18:44
masak does the program terminate?
plobsing yes
but with no output and 0 exit status
masak rakudo: die 2; CATCH { when $_ %% 2 { say "Even" } }; say "alive" 18:45
p6eval rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
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masak doesn't terminate here. 18:45
or not soon enough anyway.
plobsing rakudo: subset Even of Int where *%%2; die 2; CATCH { when Even { say "catch match"; } } 18:46
p6eval rakudo a55346: ( no output )
plobsing I expect the catch to match or rethrow
moritz rakudo never implemented that part. 18:47
masak rakudo master certainly won't... right.
moritz niecza: subset Even of Int where *%%2; die 2; CATCH { when Even { say "catch match"; } }
p6eval niecza v9-5-gec4c616: OUTPUT«catch match␤»
plobsing therefore, I expect either the text in the handler, or a backtrace
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masak optimist :P 18:47
plobsing masak: silent failure is the worst kind 18:48
masak oh, I agree.
plobsing niecza: subset Even of Int where *%%2; die 1; CATCH { when Even { say "catch match"; } }
masak I'd use the exception system in Rakudo a lot more if it actually worked.
p6eval niecza v9-5-gec4c616: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: 1␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 741 (CORE die @ 2) ␤ at /tmp/_tLRxx50I4 line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2045 (CORE C954_ANON @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting lin…
masak for now, I rely quite heavily on try and booleans.
pmichaud niecza: die 2; CATCH { say .WHAT } 18:50
p6eval niecza v9-5-gec4c616: OUTPUT«Int()␤Unhandled exception: 2␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 741 (CORE die @ 2) ␤ at /tmp/yFwtGJyzBj line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2045 (CORE C954_ANON @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setti…
plobsing I find it odd that the subset test terminates, but the direct %% test (in the handler) doesn't appear to do so
pmichaud that feels weird. The 2 is put into $!? 18:51
rakudo: die 2; CATCH { say .WHAT }; 18:52
p6eval rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Exception()␤»
pmichaud yeah, that's the difference.
plobsing ah yes, parrot exception system sucks and can't throw arbitrary objects
pmichaud rakudo (master) creates an Exception that has the 2 as a payload
plobsing pmichaud: why doesn't rakudo unbox the payload? 18:54
moritz is it supposed to?
plobsing that's the expected semantic
perl expects arbitrary objects to be throwable. the parrot exception system supports that by providing a payload slot. 18:55
[Coke] so, by "sucks" you mean "is different than perl"
?
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plobsing [Coke]: I also mean "is different from javascript, and other common languages" 18:56
moritz plobsing: I'm currently thinking hard about the exception system (at least some aspects of it), and it's not clear to me that it must be unboxed
pmichaud plobsing: I'm not certain that rakudo should be unboxing the payload. It's not clear to me that the argument to "die" should be what ends up in $!
moritz plobsing: I mean, how could you obtain the backtrace then, for example? 18:57
plobsing moritz: that is a tradeoff. I'm just looking at some of the spec and noting how it works. 18:58
moritz maybe if the argument to die isn't something throwable, $_ in the catch block becomes that argument, and $! the full exception
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pmichaud that's definitely *not* what the spec currently says. 18:59
the spec says that $_ is bound to the exception itself
moritz pmichaud: I know
moritz was SPECulating
plobsing spectacular
moritz #phasers time! 19:00
pmichaud certainly the spec implies that it's possible to .resume an exception. 19:02
so, whatever ends up in $_ either has to be an Exception, or an object with an exception mixed in
moritz
.oO( put .resume in Mu... NOOO!)
plobsing where are exceptions covered in-depth in the spec. I found a little in s04, but I feel I'm missing somethign 19:05
nm, found the draft spec, stupid question 19:06
masak moritz: after that thought bubble, I'm a bit on edge having you in charge of exceptions :P 19:07
pmichaud plobsing: exceptions haven't been covered in-depth in the spec, which is a big reason why rakudo's behavior seems wonky at times. it's building to a handwavy spec 19:09
moritz masak: I'm not in charge, I'm just being paid to do it
masak "I just work here"
anyway, moritz++ so far. 19:10
hope Mu doesn't end up with .resume :P
plobsing pmichaud: I'm looking to make some additions/improvements to parrot's exception system and was trying to determine what rakudo needs from it (which I suspect it doesn't provide ATM)
specifically wrt exceptions uncaught by the first encountered handler
pmichaud plobsing: yeah, that's been tricky. (more) 19:13
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pmichaud to me "first encountered handler" isn't really what we want to be keying on 19:13
what I really want to be able to do is to mask a handler for a given scope or block or something like that 19:14
plobsing I'm sorry, I didn't understand that. Can you dumb that down a little?
or provide an example?
pmichaud our biggest challenge at the moment is something like: CATCH { die $! }
we need to make sure the CATCH block doesn't catch any exceptions thrown from within it 19:15
but it's not enough to say "ignore the first handler", because of something like: 19:16
plobsing my reading of s04 is that the CATCH block *should* catch that, but defer it
pmichaud plobsing: that's possible... s04 changed relatively recently and I haven't updated my mental model yet
(the SIMPLECATCH stuff is relatively new)
plobsing i'm not exactly sure how that is supposed to work. I mean, the exception handler hit an exception handling the exception. How is it supposed to *continue* handling the first exception? 19:17
but that's how I read it
pmichaud well, think of something like
foo() { CATCH { ... }; die $something }; CATCH { foo(); } 19:18
sub foo() { CATCH { ... }; die $something }; CATCH { foo(); }
if foo's CATCH handles the exception, then the outer CATCH simply continues on when foo() returns 19:19
if foo's CATCH doesn't handle the exception, then the outer CATCH needs to either ignore it or arrange for it to be rethrown
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ashleydev I didn't understand what Perl 6 macros were going to be, but I found this: lists.warhead.org.uk/pipermail/iwe/...00130.html -- that helped clear up a lot for me (note I know C and perl well)... 19:20
plobsing yes, but to defer the rethrow... where do we continue in the handlng of the original exception?
is it like 'on error resume next'? 19:21
pmichaud plobsing: I don't know. I haven't explored it fully myself yet; exceptions have been relatively low on the "needs to be done" list for rakudo.
they're important, but they haven't been critical in the way that regexes and lists and lexicals and stuff have been critical 19:22
masak ashleydev: interesting. 19:23
ashleydev: yes, Perl 6 macros will be AST-based, and hygienic, just as Lisp's.
ashleydev masak: makes me think that Perl 6 is going to be lisp with more syntax
+ some regex
masak ashleydev: you're not the first to think so. 19:24
ashleydev: if doing macros right makes your language a Lisp, then fair enough, it's a Lisp :)
ashleydev heh
plobsing pmichaud: the change/addition I'd like to make first is in how parrot manages rethrows. I want to add functionality that ignores rethrow points and only reports the original throw point (􏿽xE2􏿽x84􏿽xA6􏿽xCE􏿽xB7 wants this).
I suspect the way perl6 exceptions work, rakudo wants that as well. 19:25
pmichaud "ignore rethrow points" sounds non-perl6ish to me, though.
in general perl 6 doesn't ever want to throw information away.
plobsing if you don't ignore rethrow points, you'll get a backtrace for every handler that *didn't* catch 19:26
which is a lot of noise
pmichaud well, a backtrace could be selective in what it displays. indeed, it already is.
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pmichaud and my mental model of perl 6 is that only handlers that catch would do a rethrow. 19:27
i.e., a handler that doesn't catch doesn't do anything to the exception. 19:28
ashleydev wonders if perl 6 will spark a DSL hell 2.0 after the rubyists beat that to death.
plobsing pmichaud: from a perl6 perspective yes, but from parrot's perspective, the handler needs to catch to do the testing for code such as 'CATCH { when pred1 { ... } when pred2 {...} }'
even though from perl6, we'd say that exceptions not satisfying the predicates were not caught 19:29
sjn "DSL hell"? What's that? </ignorant>
pmichaud plobsing: that doesn't fit my understanding.
in the case of CATCH { when pred1 { ... } when pred2 { ... } } there *is* a catch
plobsing what if the object thrown doesn't match the predicates? 19:30
pmichaud then it gets rethrown
(let me double-check this with latest s04)
plobsing so then how can a catch block *not* catch?
pmichaud there's more than one type of exception
we also have CONTROL exceptions
those handlers don't catch
those handlers don't catch "die" exceptions.
I also don't know yet to what extent the NEXT, LAST, and REDO phasers are exception-handler based. 19:31
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pmichaud I do know that "next", "last", and "redo" are exception-based. 19:31
plobsing so there is no way to selectively catch die exceptions based on arbitrary predicates?
pmichaud I think the predicates are handled inside the CATCH block 19:32
(which, yes, is after it has been caught)
plobsing I either always catch them (and sometimes rethrow them, at the cost of potentially low signal/noise backtraces) or I don't
pmichaud the backtrace code can always choose to ignore handlers when displaying the backtrace 19:34
as I said, we already have to selectively ignore frames in the backtrace 19:35
so that's not really anything new.
plobsing but we're not talking about frames. this makes the backtrace information 2-dimensional, only one dimension is the frames. the other dimension being the different throw/rethrow points. 19:36
pmichaud well, if it's a newly thrown exception, it has its own backtrace. if it's a rethrown exception, then I suspect knowing the original exception location and the point of the last rethrow might be enough (more) 19:38
lue hello world o/
masak lue! \o/ 19:40
lue perl6: say times; 19:41
p6eval niecza v9-5-gec4c616: OUTPUT«2.440152 0.048003 2.440152 0.048003␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«0.000010.00000100␤»
..rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &times␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/xPDJ8iG3d5␤»
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mberends hello lichtkind, for your history I looked up when classify was first mentioned here irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2006-09-20#i_-138392 and categorize irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-01-14#i_3186628 20:01
masak mberends++ 20:02
mberends lichtkind: and someone asked about classify 2 years ago ;) irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-06-21#i_1254858
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masak mberends: fwiw, "classify" is mentioned a lot in E06 as "part", a horrible name :) 20:03
and E06 is from 2003.
plobsing pmichaud: there was more?
mberends masak: oh, well remembered! 20:04
masak signed, your friendly Perl 6 historian :)
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lue sets out for another dig in the mu repository 20:09
masak 'night, #perl6
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lichtkind mberends: i tend to be persistent :) 20:23
good night masak
mberends lichtkind: :)
pmichaud plobsing: oh, sorry, I got called afk at home 20:41
no, there's not more
or if there was (and there likely was), I've forgotten it now. again, my apologies.
plobsing ah, ENOMEM 20:42
pmichaud yeah
plobsing pmichaud: I've been looking over the spec a bit more, and it appears exceptions were as you said 20:48
thrown objects that aren't exceptions probably get wrapped in X::AdHoc 20:49
in terms of keeping track of rethrow points, is 'class Backtrace does Positional[Backtrace::Frame]' suitable for handling the 2D nature of backtraces? 20:51
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lichtkind unbelievable, after 20some net hours im still tweaking on kepher.kilo028.server4you.de/nightl...ctures.pdf 21:17
felher ashleydev++: Thanks for that link 'bout the macro-system of lisp. Seems to be very interesting indeed. I find it kind of funny though, that the author didn't fall into the hard-to-spot trap of macro-expansion in C (2/10*10 != 2/(10*10)) but into the trap of integer vs. float arithmetic (2/10*10 != 2) :) 21:19
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felher yeah, really interesting. especially if one - like me - never played with lisp. 21:34
ashleydev felher: /o
me too, I'm not fluent in lisp 21:35
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ashleydev felher: but he did mention the (2/10*10 != 2/(10*10)) issue I think 21:36
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felher ashleydev: yeah, he mentioned it. As i said: the author didn't fall into the macro-expansion trap. :) 21:38
ashleydev: maybe i should have written (2/10*10 != 2/10*10) as (2/square(10) == 2/10*10 != 2/(10*10) to make sure i'm talking about the macro expansion, not the float/integer arithmetic at that point. 21:40
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felher anyway, going to sleep. good night #perl6 21:41
ashleydev can an AST based macro system not be hygenic? 21:46
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dalek ecs: 0e7e19c | larry++ | S04-control.pod:
refinement of SIMPLECATCH semantics

needs to go inside the loop to be able to give up on current exception		 21:50
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lichtkind is the cakture creating op "/" gone? 22:29
capture
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ruz upgraded memory 2G->4G, finally can compile rakudo w/o affecting whole system perf 23:00
tadzik ;) 23:01
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ruz pull requests kinda suck for small patches, can I use nopaste? 23:03
tadzik sure 23:04
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lichtkind good night 23:10
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ruz pastie.org/2457199 23:57
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