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Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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felher Whats the preffered idiom to do something x times? 'for ^x { do_something() }'? 00:03
donri 5.times do something end # nowait 00:05
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[Coke] nom: for ^5 { say 1} 00:13
TimToady you mean rakudo: now
donri that sucker be merged eh
TimToady not a merge, a replacement 00:14
rakudo: say 1 for ^5
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤»
TimToady rakudo: ^5 ==> map: say 1 00:15
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "^5 ==> map"␤»
[Coke] missed the party, being all $DAYJOBby with cold fusion and sql and jquery, oh my.
donri rakudo: class it{}; say it is so True 00:16
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "say it is "␤»
felher k, so i'll stick with for ^x. :) 00:19
[Coke] whoops. I've been testnig nom branch last few days.
Can we send an email to the dev list or get a blog post or something? 00:20
should we able to just checkout master in an existing clone, or do we need to reclone? 00:23
benabik You should be able to check it out in an existing clone. 00:29
[Coke] sees lots of updates to t/spectest.data that don't actually show the error message. do we not want those anymore? 00:34
(rant: no updates to master's RSS feed in google reader) 00:40
... so, I'm confused. 00:41
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commits/master does not look like nom.
is it just the eval robot that was updated?
PerlJam [Coke]: must be 00:46
master may actually go away.
I don't know what pm decided.
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pmichaud I've still been waiting to hear from jnthn++. But I may simply make a decision for him. 02:01
s/for/without/
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lue Hm. "master" suggests to me "mainstream --- use this if you're not a hardcore rakudo dev", but I wouldn't mind too much if it disappeared (no more "hey, it's not nom anymore, it's master!!") 03:07
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pmichaud yeah, I'm inclined to not have a master, at least for a while. 03:26
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lue "There's no such thing as 'mainstream' right now, at least not until we're Perl 6" 03:28
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lue
.oO(would current master become "beta" or "ng" (or some other -Ofun name?))
 03:34
benabik b: say 'hello' 03:35
p6eval b a55346: OUTPUT«hello␤»
sorear good * #perl6
lue: no "beta".
lue: beta is -Ono-fun
lue: because people are conditioned to think beta = leading-edge
lue ah, yes, forgot about that. 03:37
sorear phenny: tell mberends Separate solutions for separate problems. 03:39
phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when mberends is around.
sorear phenny: tell masak Str per se is immutable but there's... something... between Str and Cursor that is mutable. See also <cut>. 03:43
phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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sorear seen colomon 03:45
aloha colomon was last seen in #perl6 8 hours 23 mins ago saying "\o".
sorear o/ colomon 03:46
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dhaivat When's Perl6 gonna be done? I'm sick of using PHP for work. 05:10
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moritz good morning 05:24
dhaivat: when is Perl 5 gonna be done? or C++? or Java? 05:25
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sorear morning moritz 05:25
mberends morning moritz and hi, pre-thanks sorear 05:26
phenny mberends: 03:39Z <sorear> tell mberends Separate solutions for separate problems.
mberends sorear: did yesterday's discussion leave you with something to work with, or a bikeshed color scheme? 05:27
sorear yes 05:32
mberends :) 05:33
plobsing moritz: they just formally approved a new version of the fortran standard last year. apparently it can take over 50 years for a language to be "done". 05:34
moritz
.oO( lisp )
 05:35
TimToady we're not really interested in "done", so much as "competitive" 05:36
plobsing lisp is not a language. it is a philosophy.
lue "done" implies there's a fixed, concrete end-goal. From where I stand, there isn't one. 05:38
mberends "practical" is what I want 05:39
in my view we will have succeeded when Ubuntu includes some Perl 6 based GUI apps in the place of the current Python based ones. 05:53
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lue in my view we'll have succeeded when emerge uses P6 instead of python+bash :) 05:56
benabik We'll have succeeded when people spent time talking about how they use P6 instead of talking about when we'll have succeeded. 06:08
dhaivat lue: what's emerge? 06:09
sorear lue: Ada is done.
lue it's the package manager for gentoo, a linux distro.
sorear although they might be designing a successor, I dunno
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sorear dhaivat: The point is that your question is ill-defined because "done" is ill-defined. 06:17
dhaivat: If you ask a well-defined question about a definable concept like speed, memory usage, library support, etc, we can try to make forecasts. 06:18
of course this is a volunteer project. we don't have HR or employment contracts, and the amount of work being done on Perl 6 fluctuates wildly from month to month, which means any forecasts will be of only approximate utility 06:19
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bbkr mberends: FYI Lion 10.7.1 upgrade installed. No detailed changelog from Apple is available except "we fixed many, many things, worship us now". 07:49
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moritz rakudo: augment class IO::Socket::INET { method foo() { } } 08:00
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤augment not allowed without 'use MONKEY_TYPING' at line 1, near "{ method f"␤»
moritz rakudo: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class IO::Socket::INET { method foo() { } }
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: ( no output )
mberends bbkr: thanks! Some installation suggestions - mono (for Niecza), valgrind, JSON.pm. Also you may like some mberends/.profile bits stolen from Debian :) 08:04
bbkr mberends: which JSON.pm - from P5? 08:10
mberends yes, so it varies per installed p5 version I suppose
bbkr installation started: p5-json p5-json-xs mono mono-basic valgrind. JSON is common for all P5 versions. I'm not sure if you need also valgrind-devel 08:14
mberends 'git pull' has also slowed down again from bbrk.org - is this another ssh problem? It works, but the delay is about 35 seconds. 08:15
valgrind-devel is probably only for devs who are changing valgrind. I think valgrind does use libc-devel on Debian. 08:17
Debian valgrind depends on libc6-dbg 08:20
bbkr Yes, I know about git slowdowns. I'll try to figure out what is causing it. 08:21
mberends it's only a minor matter 08:22
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mls morning perl6! 08:27
phenny mls: 01 Sep 16:52Z <pmichaud> tell mls would you be able to do the same sort of callgraph analysis for compilation of Rakudo ng's setting?
mls: 01 Sep 16:53Z <pmichaud> tell mls it would be really useful to be able to compare the differences between ng and master
mls ok, generating... 08:28
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flussence lue: it's funny you should mention portage... one of their GSoC projects was a libbash to make it easier to write a package manager in other languages. turns out it's also a million times faster than calling the shell too. 08:50
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tadzik hello #perl6 08:52
moritz o/ 08:53
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mls phenny, tell pmichaud www4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~ml..._ng.out.gz 09:17
phenny mls: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
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mls wow, the number of calls to as_post has grown quite a bit 09:43
tadzik flussence: ping
moritz I wonder if that's related to how we store literals 09:45
tadzik flussence: I guess we've come to the conclusion that Pod AST is not neceserilly HTML-friendly (see Lists in Pod). I thought about Markdown parsing today, and wondered if we want some sort of unified AST for Documents generally. Then we can write a Pod -> DocAST compiler and generate HTML easily from whatever we can compile to DocAST. So that'd work for Markdown as well, and whatever we want 09:48
mberends tadzik: +1 good thinking 09:52
daxim compare with the parsing work done by rjbs on pod and autarch on markdown resulting in events 09:56
sometimes, an ast is inconvenient
tadzik I think having a HTML emmiter for every possible format on earth is inconvenient 09:57
mls moritz: could be the PAST::Want nodes
unfortunately the pir seems to have no annotations, so kcachegrind doesn't show the file/line 09:58
(the compiler should auto-generate annotations for subs that don't have any...) 10:00
moritz speaking of annotations... somehow in nom all reported files seem to be the current script, never modules
tadzik oh, speaking of which. We're not really into installing .pirs anymore, are we? 10:01
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mls (manually intserting .annotate statements...) 10:02
moritz tadzik: you mean we should be installing .pbcs instead? 10:03
tadzik moritz: I don't know, but we don't install e.g. Test.pir, do we?
I think there's a reason for that 10:05
also, IoC doesn't work when installed with pirs
gist.github.com/1188309 10:06
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flussence tadzik: maybe we should just have a docbookxml emitter, and let that figure out how to convert to other formats :) 10:15
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bbkr_ mberends: do you want mono LTS 2.6.7 or latest stable 2.10.5? 10:37
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tadzik flussence: if it's good enough? I mean, I don't know, never used it. And I'm much more towards the AST than a stringy format 10:40
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tadzik maybe a sensemaking docbookxml emmiter is the first step 10:40
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bbkr_ mberends: and bad news - valgrind is not yet released for Lion 10:44
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mberends bbkr_: mono latest stable please :) 2.6.7 has the old Boehm GC whilst 2.10.x has generational. sorear++ mostly uses latest mono 10:50
bbkr_ mberends: no problem. i see 2 packages - MRE and MDK. do you need both? 10:52
mberends bbkr_: I think MDK is to develop mono itself, if so then not required 10:53
bbkr_: the Mono C# compiler might be in a separate 'mcs' package 10:54
espadrine mberends: Do you know whether Boehm is still actively developed btw? 10:56
/me wonders if they think about implementing more advanced features in it.
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mberends espadrine: I think the Boehm main code is very mature and stable, but other people are producing experimental derivatives from it for SMP, NUMA etc. 10:58
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mberends espadrine: Hans Boehm is quite active with other memory management projects nowadays. www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/ 11:03
mls does pbc_merge really strip the annotations?
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bbkr_ mberends: please check if mono MRE is installed correctly. 2.10.5 version, mcs is present, i'm not sure if anything else is required 11:11
mberends bbkr_: starting Niezca build... 11:13
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mberends bbkr_: Niecza built ok and passed all tests :) 11:18
bbkr_ \o/
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pmichaud good morning, #perl6 11:48
phenny pmichaud: 09:17Z <mls> tell pmichaud www4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~ml..._ng.out.gz
mberends \o pmichaud 11:49
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flussence uh oh, my graph data contains negative values... 11:52
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mberends pmichaud: moving pir::time__N calls around in lib/Test.pm works, and produces timings between 5% and 95% lower than the currently committed version, but clutters Test.pm with timing code. Some may find this undesirable, justifying it depends on how much we want the feature. 11:54
some tests execute in 16 microseconds on the OS X server :) 11:55
tadzik wow, Rakudo is fast! :P
flussence I've been computing fails from ($plan - $pass - $skip - $todo)... looks like that's wrong. github.com/flussence/specgraphs/co...a16#diff-0
(maybe I should just omit them altogether and consider any test not accounted for a fail) 11:56
pmichaud seems to me that fails should be counted directly 11:57
not computed
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flussence I'm doing it using TAP::Parser::Aggregator - didn't see an option to account for fails in the .pod, maybe I just missed it... 11:59
pmichaud mls: ping
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pmichaud mberends: could I get a diff of your Test.pm with the additional pir::time__N calls, so I can see how cluttered it is? 13:07
mberends ok
pmichaud gotta run a few errands -- bbiaw 13:10
(mberends: I don't need the diff immediately -- just whenever you get a chance) 13:11
mberends about to paste it anyway, but no hurry here
pastebin.com/tDqSx0gZ 13:12
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im2ee Hello perl's world! :) 13:34
mls pmichaud: hi!
mberends pmichaud: if the pir::time__N clutter is unwelcome I can work around it by making tools/test_summary.pl switch in its own Test.pm instead of the standard one in lib/, perhaps even by simply tweaking PERL6_LIB. There would be a bit of maintenance skew, but nothing serious. 13:37
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tadzik hello im2ee 13:47
[Coke] learns how to say "I don't know" in chinese. 13:48
JimmyZ [Coke]: ;) 13:49
tadzik now as you long as you act as a very dumb person, you can perfectly resemble a native chinese speaker :) 13:50
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JimmyZ there are hundreds of dialects in china, but I can only say two of them 13:55
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JimmyZ s/say/say && understand/ 13:55
mberends pmichaud: either way I plan to add some reporting to tools/test_summary.pl in a --view option. Current thoughts are a menu, sort by test time, speedup/slowdown since earlier test or % change, view in 'less'. 13:57
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DerHartmut Hi together 14:53
moritz hello
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mls pmichaud: the as_post calls showing up highest in the profile are just PAST::Block, PAST::Stmts, PAST::Stmt. Nothing suspicious. 16:56
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im2ee <.space> in tokens is the same what \s in p5? :) 17:02
PerlJam im2ee: yes 17:04
im2ee PerlJam, thanks :)
PerlJam well, <.space> is the same as \s in Perl 6. Perl 6's \s differes slightly from Perl 5's \s 17:05
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im2ee Ok. :) 17:05
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pmichaud back again 17:33
It's not the as_post calls that concern me so much (although if we have a lot more as_post for PAST::Block|Stmts|Stmt than for the others, *that* would be odd) 17:36
apparently we create 3x as many PCT::Node objects in nom as we do in ng
and that's probably why the past->post stage of compilation is taking so much longer
in ng, we end up creating 465,609 PCT::Node objects (calls to 'new'). in nom, that number is 1,198,256 17:37
mls Yes, that's also what the profiles say. There are twice as many objects created for nom, thus it takes twice as long. 17:39
(probably not twice, but 3x many object. It takes twice as long because the parsing time stays constant) 17:40
pmichaud I'd like to be able to get profiles for ng and nom where we compile the setting using --target=past instead of --target=pir 17:41
that would remove the creation of POST nodes out of the profile
but _really_ I'd like to be able to generate these profiles myself :) 17:42
moritz mls: could you share your parrot patches?
mls Sure, I'll upload the (ugly) patch...
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pmichaud mls: how does your way of creating the profiles differ from Parrot's profiling runcore option, other than it seems to work in places where the profiling runcore doesn't and is apparently a ton faster? 17:43
mls It's not that different. I looked at the parrot profile code, but it seems to print a line for every op instead of incrementing counters.
(And I also use the TSC instead of doing a syscall. Highly unportable, but fast) 17:44
(That's for counting cycles, op counting is portable, of course) 17:45
pmichaud I think it would be very valuable to get your code in as a runcore option
even if it's only available for certain platforms to begin with 17:46
mls Yes, it shouldn't be that hard to integrate. It'll only report ops for platforms with no TSC.
pmichaud what do the numbers under "Incl." and "Self" represent?
tadzik TSC?
pmichaud oh, it's "ops" and "cycles" 17:47
cooool
what are "cycles"?
mls en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Stamp_Counter
pmichaud hmmmmm 17:48
moritz what you get from (mutual) recursion, I thikn
pmichaud I think there must be something wrong, then.
mls what's wrong?
pmichaud should that be "ops" and "ticks" instead of "ops" and "cycles"?
(to avoid the pun with "cycles" as used in callgraph cycle detection?) 17:49
mls Yes, ticks is probably the better name.
pmichaud okay, I'll use "ticks" here.
The profile seems to indicate that the lineof function is responsible for the greatest number of ticks
mls ops
sorear good * #perl6 17:50
mls Hi sorear!
pmichaud when I switch to displaying ticks instead of ops, lineof jumps way to the top 17:51
(in the ng profile)
mls In my kcachegrind it's the other way round.
Oh, ng.
looking...
Yes, it's number one both for ops and ticks 17:52
cotto_work mls: where's your patch?
pmichaud currently lineof is implemented using a linear search, which is O(n**2). I switched it to be a binary search so that it's O(n*log(n)) but saw hardly _any_ impact on overall performance.
mls working on it...
Yes, that's to be expected
pmichaud and I put in some other tracing code into lineof to find out why it's taking a long time there.... and it still didn't seem to be a source of slowdown 17:53
so I'm curious why it appears so high in the profile
mls lineof isn't slow
You should look at 'Incl.'
(Speaking of lineof, I've also optimized it a bit. I store the position of the last match, because the lineof queries seem to be done in ascending order most of the time 17:54
PerlJam Are you guys still looking at the same kcachegrind file that mls posted yesterday?
pmichaud yeah, I thought about doing that approach also.
PerlJam: yes, and a new one posted this morning for ng that I'm using as comparison. 17:55
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mls you can do that on top of the binary search 17:55
pmichaud I'll apply my binary search patch so we can get that artificial slowdown out of the profiles.
mls But lineof is not the responsible for the slowness. I once patched it to just return 0, and the compilation was just a couple of seconds faster 17:56
(back to patch creation...)
pmichaud right, so I'm wondering why it shows up high on the ticks count 17:57
according to the profile, it's 25% of the ticks
mls Just for "Self"
pmichaud no, in Incl
(looking at ng here)
mls Checking...
pmichaud main has 296,492,734,685 Incl. ticks. lineof has 55,251,168,511 Incl. ticks 17:58
oh, sorry, 16% of the ticks. Still.
(mental calculation error)
mls ticks have to be taken with a grain of salt 17:59
(not the animal ;) )
cause other processes interfere with the measurement
pmichaud like gc?
mls it's like gettimeofday() etc.
Yes, gc as well. 18:00
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pmichaud yeah, so it looks like we can't really use ticks as a good measure of where things are slow. 18:00
mls Well, it's better than nothing
pmichaud sure, but it also means it can lead us down false optimization paths 18:01
PerlJam It's too bad you can't get actual timings.
(except on a gross scale)
pmichaud PerlJam: yeah, this is one of those areas where I've been disappointed with parrot profiling. figuring out where things are slow is really hard. 18:02
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pmichaud not that profiling is easy, mind you :) 18:02
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TimToady let's add threading and make it even harder! :) 18:02
pmichaud makes a little noose out of threads for TimToady++ 18:03
mls If the parrot run takes a long time, chances are that influences like gc will not matter much
PerlJam TimToady: it gets easier if you first project into 10 dimensions and then back out again.
pmichaud but I wonder why lineof gets such a disproportionate amount of the cost 18:04
mls if gc always hits the same function, it's probably the function's fault
PerlJam mls: you have some statistical evidence to back up that claim? :)
mls ;)
Did you do your lineof optimization in ng?
pmichaud actually, if gc is a function of number of ops executed, then lineof gets hit more often simply because it's executing so many ops (even though those ops are fast)
the lineof optimization goes in Parrot 18:05
mls gc gets triggered by PMC allocation
tadzik pardon me, what's lineof()?
pmichaud well, that can't be it then. when lineof is called, it's not allocating PMCs
mls (gc = parrot's garbage collection, right?)
tadzik mls: right
pmichaud yes, gc == parrot's garbage collection
mls yes, so it's not a gc issue.
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pmichaud lineof() is the function in HLLCompiler that calculates line numbers for source 18:06
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pmichaud i.e., given a string of source code and a position offset, determine the line number of the offset 18:06
tadzik whoa
mls I can re-run the ng profiling to see if anything changes
but first, i'll upload the patch...
tadzik do we need that for anything besides annotations? 18:07
pmichaud tadzik: error messages, but those are rare
at least, they're rare when compiling the setting
tadzik aye
TimToady tadzik: the main reason for lineof() is actually reliability
pmichaud and I'm fairly certain that lineof itself isn't eating up 16% of compilation time
TimToady it's very, very difficult to enforce line number counting in a parser
tadzik I thought that's it, but I didn't think that'd be so expensive in action
pmichaud tadzik: right, which is why I think it's a profiler artifact and not reality 18:08
tadzik may be
TimToady but we can always be pretty sure of the current parser position
pmichaud and I'm trying to figure out the source of the artifact
TimToady I don't suppose there's anything in the profiling code that calls lineof() surreptitiously?
pmichaud doesn't seem likely. 18:09
the profiler is in C, while lineof() is PIR.
and lineof() is strictly compile-time.
that's a good thought, though, so I'll explore it a bit. 18:10
PerlJam I bet someone could build a chart of the necessary timing information for each parrot op and then marry that with mls' data to figure out where the real slow-down is.
It would take a bit of work to do it by hand though
pmichaud PerlJam: I think it's not so simple. 18:11
PerlJam: remember that parrot ops sometimes call into PIR.
so "timing information for each parrot op" gets convoluted really quick.
PerlJam well, how about "timing for each parrot-level sub" instead? 18:12
cotto_work Yeah. Dealing with nested runloops took a lot of thought.
pmichaud "timing for each parrot-level sub" is also somewhat convoluted. See gc.
If GC occurs in the middle of a sub, do we charge the sub with the cost of GC?
PerlJam pmichaud: it would have to be stastical
with large error bars I guess
pmichaud what might be really helpful is if the profiler could treat GC as a separate subcall 18:13
so then if, for example, GC is occurring within lineof, it shows lineof as a caller and charges the expense of the GC to the phantom GC sub instead of lineof itself
(the Incl. total would still include the cost of the GC, but we'd be able to separate the GC cost from the "actual work" cost) 18:14
PerlJam I haven't seen mls' patch, but it sounds like he could intercept GC calls and do something special. 18:15
pmichaud maybe. I suspect the profiling patch works at the level of intercepting things at the level of op dispatch. GC takes place in another area, iiuc. 18:16
mls yes 18:17
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PerlJam isn't there an op to force a GC run? 18:19
Couldn't you call it periodically so that GC runs are more predictable?
cotto_work collect iirc
mls diff: www4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~ml...ofile.diff 18:21
pmichaud we probably could, yes. but based on what mls++ said above, I doubt that gc is occurring during lineof
mls Use: parrot -R slow will dump the valgrind data to stderr
not very confty, but it works for now 18:22
PerlJam I wonder how much the GC system knows about the state of parrot when it's called? Maybe the GC system itself could be instrumented for profiling such that the results could be subtracted from the cachegrind stuff
cotto_work mls: do you mind if I start a branch on parrot.git with that?
mls no, go ahead
the patch is now in public domain ;) 18:23
pmichaud cotto_work++ cotto_work++ a branch with that is exactly what we need
plobsing mls: why do you manually handle the annotations and then call PackFile_Annotations_lookup? 18:24
pmichaud just a sec, I'm about to commit my binary search patch
mls see the discussion on #parrot
plobsing mls when?
cotto_work mls: what's the difference between this profiler and the one in parrot now? 18:25
plobsing oic, it handles the sub lines. sorry
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mls Didn't you suggest the null annotations? 18:25
cotto_work is it just sub-level?
plobsing yes. I didn't put 2 and 2 together 18:26
pmichaud binary search patch pushed. 18:27
mls (for reference: that was my lineof patch: gist.github.com/1189409) 18:30
pmichaud I think we can get a bit better if we simply cache lastline and not lastpos 18:32
and compare linepos[lastline] against pos
18:33 rlb3 left
pmichaud if linepos[lastline] < pos, then we start from lastline. 18:33
mls You need to check that lastline is in bounds first
pmichaud in bounds?
mls lastline < elems(linepos) 18:34
pmichaud it has to be, if we're caching
well, I suppose it could be elems(linepos) exactly
mls yes 18:35
pmichaud which would be "out of bounds". but that's still a pretty easy check.
it gives us a better start position for 'line' (or 'lo' in the binary search)
cotto_work mls: I'll push as soon as I've verified a clean(ish) build. Thanks!
mls I hope it works also on 64bit builds, I've just tested 32bits 18:36
cotto_work mls: I'd appreciate it if you'd send a quick note to parrot-dev about what it does.
I believe pmichaud can answer that question. ;)
and pushed 18:37
pmichaud well, I'm waiting for the branch to arrive :)
because then it's easy to do in nom
just --gen-parrot=branchname
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mls I think I stored lastpos so that lookups between lastpos and linepos[lastline] also are fast 18:38
i.e. if you lookup the same value twice, the second lookup is fast 18:39
pmichaud I suspect "look up the same value twice" almost never happens, though.
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pmichaud well, it might happen, now that I think about it. 18:39
mls well, you can just subtrace one from lastline 18:40
then you also don't run into problems with elems(linepos)
pmichaud might run into problems on line 0, though.
so still need the check.
mls ;) yes, but that's a simple == 0 check
pmichaud well, checking against elems() isn't hard either, since we have to get that value anyway 18:41
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pmichaud I'll add a 'lastline' patch here shortly 18:41
mls subtracting one will help the "lookup same value" case 18:42
but implement it any way you like ;)
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mls cotto_work: mail sent. 19:18
ok, weekend ;) 19:21
lue hello Camelialand o/ 19:28
tadzik o/ 19:32
sorear hello
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TimToady nom: my @x; @x[0][0] = 42; 19:33
rakudo: my @x; @x[0][0] = 42;
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤ in <anon> at /tmp/Dcv4MRlqCV:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/Dcv4MRlqCV:1␤␤»
TimToady is there an eta on autoviv in nom?
PerlJam TimToady: when it's ready. ;) 19:34
TimToady is there an etr then?
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diakopter niecza: my @x; @x[0][0] = 42; # i wonder 19:37
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: ( no output )
PerlJam TimToady: I have vague recollections that autoviv would be fixed within a few weeks but only jnthn/pmichaud would really know. 19:39
(the vague recollection is tied to jnthn in my head)
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pmichaud actually, I'm the autoviv guy, I think. 19:50
I can fix it tonight, np.
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pmichaud mls / cotto_work: the profiler seems to work fine on my 64-bit box. mls++ cotto_work++ 19:57
mberends \o/ 19:58
pmichaud the sub-profiler branch is behind master by about 58 commits, though.
github.com/parrot/parrot/branches/...b-profiler
afk, lunch
lue is nom still in the nom branch ? 20:00
sorear afaik yes 20:05
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cotto_work pmichaud: thanks for noticing. I thought I pulled before branching. looks like an easy merge. 20:18
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sorear I've finished reading the C# overloading resolution spec, and I kindof like it better than Perl 6's current multimethod resolution 20:46
it's certainly a simpler definition
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moritz sorear: is it symmetric in the arguments? 20:51
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sorear moritz: yes 20:54
both the C# and Perl6 models start with a poset of possible functions 20:55
C#: Pick the unique greatest element, or error.
moritz isn't that what Perl 6 does too? :-) 20:56
I mean, for some definition of "greatest element", that already takes "is default" into account
sorear Perl6: Assign the elements of the poset into a list of buckets using a specific greedy topological sort, such that every element is put into the least bucket consistent with the partial order. Then find the first bucket which contains a usable candidate, or error if there are more than one in the same bucket 20:57
moritz: no
the Perl6/Rakudo algorithm seems like it's trying to implement that, but it doesn't really
moritz how is that "greatest element" defined in C#? 20:58
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flussence
.oO( maybe we should just copy the css selector specificity algorithm )
 20:58
sorear candidate which is better than all other valid candidates 20:59
let me try and find a specific example of a case where they differ
21:00 PacoLinux_ left
mberends sorear: does this document whhat you're describing? msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa...71%29.aspx 21:00
sorear mberends: It appears to be equivalent 21:01
mberends: except too short
I'm reading §14.4.2 of ISO/IEC 23270:2006(E) 21:03
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sorear which is identical to the section of the same number in Ecma-334 21:04
about 4 pages
moritz so they count number of subclasses, right?
sorear moritz: ...number of subclasses? 21:05
moritz erm, depth of inheritance hierarchies
sorear mberends: ah, yes, if you count subsections it's the same
moritz: yes
moritz is that like manhattan sort?
moritz -> sleep 21:06
sorear I cannot find any references to a concept called "Manhattan sort" on google
21:11 cognominal left
mberends I guess it relates to "manhattan distance" in "Taxicab geometry" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_distance 21:12
im2ee Have a nice day/night. Bye! :) 21:14
mberends o/ im2ee
im2ee \o :) 21:15
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mberends "manhattan distance" is a kind of hop count if the blocks are equal sized, so you could sort by that. I'm not sure whether such a distance applies to the number of arguments that need implicit conversion. 21:19
cotto_work iirc the calculation done by Parrot takes conversions into account
21:20 colomon left
sorear they don't *count* anything. 21:21
it's a purely relational analysis.
mberends true, jnthn++ calls it "topological sort" in one of his talks 21:23
TimToady p6 used to use manhattan distance, but it was rejected as to much bad dwimmery 21:24
*too much
jnthn back from $trip 21:26
Exhausted, but that's nothing sleep won't fix :)
mberends o/
pmichaud jnthn: o/
jnthn (And yes, that was the last trip for a while. I can actually get back to doing stuff again...like, writing code. :-)) 21:27
o/ pmichaud
pmichaud jnthn: I have a quick (and should be easy-ish) question for you, if you're awake enough for it :)
jnthn pmichaud: I feel surprisingly awake, which may or may not be a good sign. ;-)
tadzik lolitsjnthn! 21:28
pmichaud we're going to move master->ng, but considering leaving 'nom' branch as 'nom' (and not having a 'master' branch at all)
jnthn That feels like it'll surprise too many people.
pmichaud we'll set git so that a repo clone defaults to 'nom'
jnthn I still think it'll surprise too many people.
What's the motivation?
I know "master" is just a convention.
But...people get used to conventions. 21:29
pmichaud well, for one it means we don't have confusion regarding 'master'
it also means we don't have to tell folks to re-clone their repos
jnthn Will folks get a relatively decent message telling them they need to do that? 21:30
sorear rakudo: role A {}; role B does A {}; role C {}; class X does A does C {}; multi f(A) { "A" }; multi f(C) { "C" }; say f(X)
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Ambiguous dispatch to multi 'f'. Ambiguous candidates had signatures:␤:(A)␤:(C)␤␤ in sub f at /tmp/KWmDLA9A9S:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/KWmDLA9A9S:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/KWmDLA9A9S:1␤␤»
pmichaud I've drafted two messages, depending on which way we go
sorear rakudo: role A {}; role B does A {}; role C {}; class X does A does C {}; multi f(A) { "A" }; multi f(B) { "B" }; multi f(C) { "C" }; say f(X)
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«C␤»
sorear I hope at least one person in #perl6 agrees that this is wrong.
pmichaud pmichaud.com/sandbox/nom2.txt # assuming we keep 'nom' as 'nom'
oops
pmichaud.com/sandbox/nom-2.txt # assuming we keep 'nom' as 'nom'
sorear adding a candidate which cannot be used changes the ambiguous overloading detection 21:31
pmichaud pmichaud.com/sandbox/nom.txt # assuming we rename 'nom' as 'master'
sorear with C#'s rules, which are similar enough that they could be trivially adopted, this problem does not exist.
jnthn sorear: The ambiguity for the first one looks correct. Looking at the second one... 21:32
pmichaud discussion of the branch rename: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-08-31#i_4352409
sorear jnthn: C# rules will treat both of them as ambiguous.
jnthn: they are also much simpler to specify.
jnthn sorear: I dont' realy see how that's relevant. 21:33
sorear jnthn: how what is relevant?
jnthn What C# does.
sorear: Have you tried asking nom?
TimToady simpler is potentially relevant :)
sorear jnthn: because I'm going to change the perl 6 spec to follow the C# spec. it's simply better.
jnthn sorear: No, you're not.
sorear right, I have to fight you first. 21:34
jnthn Again, did you check what nom thinks?
sorear nom: role A {}; role B does A {}; role C {}; class X does A does C {}; multi f(A) { "A" }; multi f(B) { "B" }; multi f(C) { "C" }; say f(X)
pmichaud note that "rakudo:" in p6eval is now nom.
jnthn ah
jnthn looks a little more
pmichaud and there is no "nom:" target (but there needs to be)
jnthn sorear: oh, I see what's going on. 21:35
I think. I need to draw out the DAG normally to really be sure.
Anyway, in the second example, B and C end up tied, with A narrower.
Note that the candidate ordering is *static*. 21:36
I don't know whether the C# one is.
(Yes, it is in so far as it decides everything at compile time. But that's orthogonal to whether the list is statically sortable.)
So arguments along the lines of "the one with B could never be called" aren't really relevant. At sort time - which is once ever - it is relevant. 21:37
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jnthn I'd also be extremely reluctant to change semantics that so far have suited many real world cases, when I'm looking at an example here that seems relatively contrived. 21:38
pmichaud: Checking the release announces.
pmichaud jnthn: note that if we leave 'nom' as 'nom' and discover that people are really confused by it, we can still do 'nom'->'master' later (with no additional work) 21:39
jnthn pmichaud: I'm having trouble saying exactly why, but something makes me uncomfy about not having a "master"
pmichaud jnthn: does it help to know that p5 doesn't have a 'master' ?
jnthn pmichaud: Well, but then we'd be deferring the re-clone.
pmichaud I mean "no additional work" relative to making that decision today.
jnthn pmichaud: Well, it's a fact I wasn't aware of :) 21:40
Ah, in that case you're correct.
pmichaud: When do we need to decide by? 21:41
pmichaud sooner is better -- I'd like to get some sort of announcement out, well, yesterday. 21:42
jnthn pmichaud: I know masak++ had some discomfort about the "no master" issue, and he may have actual reasoned arguments rather than my knee-jerk discomfort. :)
pmichaud when I asked masak++ about it, it was primarily the "most people expect a 'master'" argument
I'm not sure who 'most people' will be in this case, though. 21:43
also, I suspect that when projects grow to a certain size, the argument for having 'master' as default might break down.
although it definitely depends on workflow
also, I'm highly persuaded by TimToady++'s strong opposition to a rename. 21:44
jnthn Ah, OK, you already discussed with with masak. 21:45
pmichaud well, only briefly. I had some followup questions there too but we've been missing each other on #perl6
jnthn Got a link to TimToady++'s reasons for not wanting to do a rename?
What will happen to people who have a checkout of "master" today?
pmichaud irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-08-31#i_4352409 21:46
jnthn Who just "git pull"?
pmichaud they'll get a note that master no longer exists
which is definitely better than it trying to do a merge with a new master
(a new nom-based master)
at least, that's what I suspect will happen. Let me try it out.
jnthn pmichaud: I'm probably 0 on "no master", but -1 on "call it nom". Largely the "we think it's cute today" argument. :-) Yes, it is cute, but I think a name that better indicates its role as the current actively developed head may be better. "bleed" in Perl 5 does that, for example. (iiuc the Perl 5 approach, anyway...) 21:48
otoh, it is what people get by default...I can just imagine dozens of "why is it called nom?" questions needing answering int he future ;) 21:49
sorear -1 to giving anything a long-term name with the word "new" in it
jnthn Well, yeah. The "n" in "nom" is for "new" :)
sorear anyone remember New Executables?
jnthn Or New York? :)
pmichaud for developer names, I don't mind occasional cuteness. -Ofun and all that.
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jnthn (Yes, OK, it *is* newer than my York... :)) 21:50
pmichaud: Cute is nice. I like cute things. I just worry it'll be tiresome to explain style of cute. :)
pmichaud explain to _who_, exactly? 21:51
aloha positive: nothing; negative: nothing; overall: 0.
jnthn pmichaud: People who show up here and ask "why is it called nom?" :)
Maybe I overestimate the risk of that.
pmichaud Attempting to pull when master is removed gives: 21:53
TimToady I'm not opposed to having 'master' be an alias for whatever the current "approved" version, but I just really like for major versions to have permanent names too...and "nom" feels like one of those permanent names to me
pmichaud pmichaud@kiwi:~/ren$ git pull
Your configuration specifies to merge with the ref 'master'
from the remote, but no such ref was fetched.
TimToady "We are now in the Nom Era." 21:54
pmichaud afaik git doesn't have a way to alias branch names in the way we want
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TimToady "That was back in the [Alpha|Ng] Era..." 21:55
sorear nomic? nomous?
and is that pronounced like "gnome"?
TimToady it's pronounce by eating heartily
jnthn :) 21:56
TimToady and how do you pronounce "gnome" anyway?
tadzik gnołm
jnthn treats the "g" as silent, fwiw.
sahadev hello all. is this how to read input by paragraphs? for $*IN.lines(nl => "\n\n") -> $para { say $para } 21:58
TimToady pronounces the "g"
21:58 dark_x left
TimToady for the softward, not for the garden gnome :) 21:58
*ware
tadzik sahadev: looks neat, does it work?
sahadev that still reads my input by line.
jnthn TimToady: Oh, I'd always figured they should be said the same ;)
TimToady also pronounces the 'k' on Knuth :)
tadzik okay then
sahadev tadzik: no. i was hoping someone here would correct my error if there was any. 21:59
jnthn pmichaud: I think I object less to the "no master" thing that I initially did.
s/that/than
tadzik sahadev: I have a feeling nl is NYI in Rakudo
sahadev oh, well. 22:00
jnthn pmichaud: tbh, if people do "git clone" and they get the Right Thing, then that's "enough". And we have a fairly tight commit policy, and tend to take patches over fork requests, so it's not so many people we'll need to point out that "no, you don't do git push origin master" to
TimToady perl6: for $*IN.lines(nl => "\n\n") -> $para { .say; exit }
lue I personally like the idea of "no master", and if you want to avoid *new*, rename s/nom/jom (jnthn's object model) perhaps
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $para is declared but not used at /tmp/cU5Mbc8Dww line 1:␤------> for $*IN.lines(nl => "\n\n") -> ⏏$para { .say; exit }␤␤Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to CORE TextReader.lines, unused named nl␤ at /home/p…
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Scalar: "&lines"␤ at /tmp/xh2tOz4BNT line 1, column 5-30␤»
..rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
jnthn lue: oh no! :P 22:01
TimToady niecza++ is much more careful about complaining about NYI stuff than rakudo is
jnthn TimToady: For one, I didn't know nl existed. :) But also Niecza fails for the wrong reason. 22:02
TimToady well, the first message is not a failure
jnthn TimToady: Unexpected arguments to methods should be ignored.
er, *named* arguments
Due to implcit *%_
Which is why Rakudo ignores it.
lue
.oO(perhaps I'd like getting rid of master because I'm a whovian.)
 22:03
jnthn lue: :)
pmichaud jnthn: (less objection to no master) okay, noted. 22:04
if we want to call the branch something other than 'nom', we can do that. But I think TimToady++ is somewhat correct about too much renaming taking place, and that would be another instance of it.
otoh, if we don't want this to be known as the "nom era", we need a new name for it.
TimToady jnthn: maybe niecza was expecting it :)
lue I can't come up with any real reason why I'd like it gone (much like jnthn in the other direction), except that it gets rid of the only stable-implying branch name, which better communicates the wobbly nature of implementing P6. 22:05
jnthn TimToady: Maybe ;)
pmichaud I have to agree that rakudo gets the above one correct, with the exception of not warning about unused $para
jnthn pmichaud: Unless nl is spec, and NYI :)
TimToady niecza: for $*IN.lines(blurgh => "\n\n") -> $para { .say; exit }
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $para is declared but not used at /tmp/2keHW6reGQ line 1:␤------> for $*IN.lines(blurgh => "\n\n") -> ⏏$para { .say; exit }␤␤Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to CORE TextReader.lines, unused named blurgh␤ at…
TimToady heh
jnthn :) 22:06
pmichaud for $*IN.lines(nl => "\n\n") -> $para { $para.say; exit }
rakudo: for $*IN.lines(nl => "\n\n") -> $para { $para.say; exit }
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Land der Berge, Land am Strome,␤»
pmichaud rakudo gets it right.
well, not really.
should be a paragraph and not a line
jnthn Right
TimToady and \n\n is wrongish for paragraph mode anyway
jnthn I'm trusting nl actually is in the spec and I just missed it :)
pmichaud yes, there's a :$nl argument to lines in the spec. 22:07
jnthn ok 22:08
TimToady perl6: for $*IN.lines(nl => /\n\n+/) -> $para { .say; exit }
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Scalar: "&lines"␤ at /tmp/a8kxHHNShe line 1, column 5-31␤»
..rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
..niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $para is declared but not used at /tmp/JwgDK3baEm line 1:␤------> for $*IN.lines(nl => /\n\n+/) -> ⏏$para { .say; exit }␤␤Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to CORE TextReader.lines, unused named nl␤ at /home/…
TimToady that's a more correct definition 22:09
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lue in any case, put my vote down for "master" removal. 22:12
TimToady looks around for a handy putdown...
pmichaud lue: noted 22:14
diakopter hands TimToady a put handmedown
pmichaud I'll make a decision (and the related switches) tonight, likely.
Limbic_Region Um - been away for some time now - have there been any major changes in status of Rakudo/Parrot in say - the last 18 months? 22:18
oh, and salutations all btw
tadzik yes, hello 22:19
TimToady yes, we've done yet another 80% of the work :) 22:29
Limbic_Region TimToady - you are well into the next 80% I imagine? 22:30
diakopter well much of that 80% is rework at each cycle 22:31
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sorear Limbic_Region: 18 months you say? Did you leave before or after ng landed? 22:32
Limbic_Region sorear - I never really left but I have had almost no visibility to anything going on - so, no - I don't remember ng landing 22:33
TimToady decommuting & 22:34
o/ # L_R btw 22:35
Limbic_Region for those of you who know me and care - last July I lost my Mother. I have lost about 90 pounds in an effort to get back in shape (I run 2 miles in under 16 minutes now). My oldest daughter - Jasmine, started Kindergarten and several promotions at work have left with me almost no time for distractions
sorear "almost no visibility to" is unidiomatic US or UK English. I wonder where you're from.
Limbic_Region is US based
sorear anyway, yes, everything has changed. Except the things that haven't.
Limbic_Region well, that clears everything up - next you will be telling me MAD has been changed names to MUD 22:36
:P
22:36 donri joined
sorear MAD has been essentially forgotten. 22:36
Limbic_Region assumed as much
sorear TimToady tells me it's only dormant, not dead
Limbic_Region without champions who refuse to give up or without communities that reach critical mass to carry on without champions - it happens 22:37
sorear most of #perl6 now looks to STD::P5 as the way forwards for source compat
Limbic_Region: as far as I'm concerned, the largest change in the Perl 6 community has been my entrance. :D 22:39
Limbic_Region sorear - awesome - how long you been on-board? 22:40
sorear Limbic_Region: about 18 months.
Limbic_Region: about 12 months ago I started writing an implementation of Perl 6 22:41
Limbic_Region assumed when you mentioned ng
sorear insufficient context to interpret statement 22:42
niecza: say "Hi"
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«Hi␤»
Limbic_Region googled and filled in the blanks
sorear niecza: sub foo() { }
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ &foo is declared but not used at /tmp/pd0vsvqunG line 1:␤------> sub foo⏏() { }␤␤»
pmichaud okay, switching lineof() to use a binary search causes it to drop out of the profiling for the most part 22:43
sorear niecza: say "foobar" ~~ / foo | foobar /
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(6) text(foobar) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
sorear niecza: say ~ "foobar" ~~ / foo | foobar /
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(6) text(foobar) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
sorear hmm
niecza: say ~ do "foobar" ~~ / foo | foobar / 22:44
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«foobar␤»
sorear niecza: my $s = times[0]; loop (my $x = 0; $x < 1e8; ++$x) { }; say (times[0] - $start) / 1e8; 22:45
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Variable $start is not predeclared at /tmp/sN7lczk79l line 1:␤------> 0; $x < 1e8; ++$x) { }; say (times[0] - ⏏$start) / 1e8;␤␤Potential difficulties:␤ $s is declared but not used at /tmp/sN7lczk79l line 1:…
sorear niecza: my $s = times[0]; loop (my $x = 0; $x < 1e8; ++$x) { }; say (times[0] - $s) / 1e8;
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
sorear niecza: my $s = times[0]; loop (my $x = 0; $x < 1e7; ++$x) { }; say (times[0] - $s) / 1e7;
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«6.136384E-07␤»
jnthn pmichaud: Was it quite high before? 22:46
pmichaud jnthn: yes, but the profiling numbers were artificial somehow
i.e., they seemed to indicate a lot of time was spent there... but optimizing it doesn't provide a substantial performance improvement 22:47
(and direct instrumentation showed that it really wasn't as expensive as the profiling seemed to indicate anyway)
anyway, it was O(n**2) for computing line numbers, now it's O(n**log(n))
and I can likely make it so that it's O(n) for most hits with some smart caching 22:48
sorear I hope you mean O(n*log(n))
pmichaud yes, n*log(n) (thanks) 22:49
Limbic_Region chuckles
22:50 wamba left
donri sorear: you should check for ttyness before you throw around ansi escapes *braindump* 22:57
mberends donri: those ansi escapes in Niecza error messages are mostly from STD, you should take it up with TimToady 22:59
donri ah :)
sorear irssi can interpret ansi escapes 23:00
if there's a big demand, I can patch p6eval to remap color codes
donri it would be cool, though this is just mild annoyance so don't go overboard :) 23:01
lue what's annoyed me is that my irc clients of choice (first Konversation and now xchat) won't interpret those escapes properly, not the fact they're there.
sorear wonders if mIRC color codes are actually more widely supported than ANSI
lue [in short, I blame my client, not the output]
donri i think it would be best to just strip all sorts of control codes 23:02
flussence huh, I'm pretty sure xchat supports colours :/
donri but maybe that's just me
needs more <BLINK> though 23:03
lue not the ones from STD, though I should play around with the settings and possible modules before condemning xchat (Konversation had no such features :/) 23:04
23:04 Moukeddar joined
Moukeddar hi guys :) 23:04
sorear hello, Moukeddar
donri uses smuxi
Moukeddar i missed you 23:05
23:05 whiteknight joined
sorear wonders what feature ey should demo to impress Limbic_Region 23:05
Moukeddar you should probably demo the BIG RED BUTTON feature
sorear doesn't have one. 23:07
yet.
Moukeddar you should make one
everyone loves the BIG RED BUTTON
23:09 sjn is now known as resistor, resistor is now known as sjn
jnthn sleep & 23:09
sorear niecza: sub infix:<§>($,$) { say '§' }; sub infix:<¤>($,$) is tighter<§> { say '¤' }; sub infix:<¶> is looser<¤> { say '¶' }; 1 § 2 ¤ 3 ¶ 4 23:11
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«¤␤Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to MAIN infix:<¶>, used 1 of 2 positionals␤ at /tmp/hPjABSfoYc line 0 (MAIN infix:<¶> @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/hPjABSfoYc line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2045 (CORE C954_ANON @ 2) ␤ …
sorear niecza: sub infix:<§>($,$) { say '§' }; sub infix:<¤>($,$) is tighter<§> { say '¤' }; sub infix:<¶>($,$) is looser<¤> { say '¶' }; 1 § 2 ¤ 3 ¶ 4
p6eval niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«¤␤¶␤§␤»
sorear maybe that, Limbic_Region? 23:12
Limbic_Region ? 23:13
sorear Limbic_Region: user defined precedence levels!
even pugs didn't do that.
Limbic_Region if I remember correctly, Pugs was waiting on a new version of Haskell's Parsec for that before Audrey went *poof* 23:14
sorear does anyone remember what happened to Audrey?
23:15 jevin left 23:17 Moukeddar left 23:18 jevin joined
Limbic_Region yes 23:18
23:23 [Coke] left
sorear Limbic_Region: did something specific happen or just burnout? 23:23
Limbic_Region sorear - mostly personal reasons that are not appropriate to discuss in the channel but yes, burnout was a mitigating factor as well 23:24
23:25 [Coke] joined
Limbic_Region she is alive and well working for Socialtext by the way 23:27
23:28 ashleyde1 joined, cexsum left 23:29 cexsum joined
sorear Limbic_Region: audrey has visited #perl6 occasionally, and for the most part it's even really been her. :) 23:29
23:30 mberends_ joined 23:31 mberends left, ashleydev left 23:36 mberends_ is now known as mberends 23:37 Patterner left 23:38 cexsum left 23:40 Psyche^ joined, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner 23:52 cexsum joined 23:54 molaf_ joined 23:57 molaf left

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