»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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abercrombie anyone just heard of the apple news? 00:14
jnthn yes :(
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jnthn sleep time & 00:19
dalek kudo/nom: dc9ffc4 | jnthn++ | src/ops/perl6.ops:
Avoid spending so much time in realloc. Shaves another ~12% off 'for 1..1000000 { $i++ }'.
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colomon :( 00:32
cognominal www.apple.com/stevejobs/
jlaire on the front page, too www.apple.com/ 00:34
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cognominal the nyt has an obituary 00:35
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dalek ecza/serialize: 7c3e0f7 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
Reimplement ltm generation, is unsafe trait
 00:43
colomon sorear: ping? 00:45
sorear colomon: pong? 00:48
colomon sorear: just wanted to check on the status of the open :w patch.
I understand if it's too hacky to add.
but I need to know whether I should keep my version hacked into my local niecza. :)
sorear no it's fine. I haven't been paying much attention to niecza/master issues 00:49
warning: 4 lines applied after fixing whitespace errors 00:50
colomon hmmm.... I need to remember how to get the "don't commit with whitespace errors" flag set for niecza.
dalek ecza: 64c5778 | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/C (2 files):
Greatly improved (but still very simplistic) TextWriter class, plus open :w support.
 00:51
colomon sorear++
sorear btw, /serialize can now parse the complete setting
colomon \o/ 00:52
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dalek ecza/serialize: 4648202 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
Miscellaneous fixes, setting completely compiled
 01:37
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sorear o/ benabik 01:54
benabik o/ sorear
sorear: How's things? 02:00
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sorear good 02:01
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dalek ecza/serialize: febfdd9 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
More misc fixes, can now run q[ say "Hello, world" ]
 04:52
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sorear Phase 1 complete. 05:01
TimToady \o/
sorear Phase 2 will involve implementing serialization 05:03
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moritz wow, every single headline on the hackernews front page is about steve jobs somehow 06:02
m6locks aye, g+ also filled 06:03
seems like he had an impact
tadzik yeah, 10 first links 06:07
m6locks a nice quote from the man 06:11
“Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.”
moritz resist the urge to write a "Steve Jobs is dead. Now get over it" post
m6locks well i guess we need to give them this day 06:12
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sorear sleep 06:33
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masak sorear: the O(A^-1(N)) bound is with "both optimizations" on the naive version of that algorithm. someday I'd like to understand the proof of that, but your talk about mortals sounds discouraging. :) 07:27
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masak sjohnson: I'm on the third book of TAoCP now. it is what you make of it, I'd say. there's just so much in there, but at least for me reading isn't enough -- I have to do some of the exercises to grok the chapter text. 07:27
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moritz flussence_: re gist.github.com/1179681 what does :ignore mean? that the ignored thing is passed through? or that it is caught, but not counted as an exception? 07:45
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masak moritz: your answer is here, it seems: github.com/sorear/niecza/blob/mast...t.pm6#L127 08:05
the ignored things are caught, but still counted as success. 08:06
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moritz I think we've discussed shell aliases before 08:41
alias g=git
I found I never use it, because if I do, the tab completion for the git command stops working
is there an easy-ish way to enable them for the alias? 08:42
ie I want g fet<tab> to give me g fetch just like it works with git fet<tab>
avar complete -p git 08:43
then enter that command with s/git$/g/
w ~ (master=) $ complete -p git
complete -o bashdefault -o default -o nospace -F _git git
w ~ (master=) $ complete -o bashdefault -o default -o nospace -F _git g
w ~ (master=) $ g sta
sta stage staged stash status
masak avar++ 08:44
moritz avar++
avar alias g=git
$(complete -p git | sed s/git$/g/)
moritz #perl6 is always good for general programming-related knowledge :-)
avar should work if you put it in your .bashrc
masak moritz: it's where having a hundred lurkers pays off :) 08:45
moritz masak: aye :-)
masak would like to sometimes give a talk on the disjoint-set data structure 08:46
sometime*
moritz masak: please do that at the GPW 2012 in March in Erlangen, Germany :-)
masak could do :) 08:47
it's an important algorithm in maze-making, but also in Hex and (to a lesser extent) Go.
the speed gets important when one does a lot of move analysis. 08:49
dalek kudo/convergent-num-rat: 0e351b2 | moritz++ | src/core/Num.pm:
try not to loop infinitely in Num.Rat
 08:55
moritz could somebody on a 32 bit system please check if the 'now' term still loops on the convergent-num-rat branch? 08:56
it causes some few regression (on the order of 10 failing subtests) which might be worth fixing if that branch actually helps us 08:58
4 subtests actually :-) 08:59
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flussence_ does 09:03
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moritz flussence: any results? 09:27
flussence still compiling :)
moritz wow.
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masak rakudo: role A[] {}; role A[::T] {}; say A[A].new 09:37
p6eval rakudo dc9ffc: OUTPUT«A<-2625399358932644392>␤»
masak nom: given <row your boat gently down the stream merrily life is like a drem> { say (.[0] x 3, .[1, 2]); say .[3..6]; say .[7] x 4; say .[8..12] } 09:42
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«rowrowrow your boat␤gently down the stream␤merrilymerrilymerrilymerrily␤life is like a drem␤»
masak hm.
nom: given <row your boat gently down the stream merrily life is like a drem> { say (.[0] xx 3, .[1, 2]); say .[3..6]; say .[7] xx 4; say .[8..12] }
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«row row row your boat␤gently down the stream␤merrily merrily merrily merrily␤life is like a drem␤»
masak \o/
moritz masak++ # perl 6 poetry
masak :)
seems I can't spell "dream", however... 09:43
moritz artistic freedom
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felher masak: yeah, mortiz is right. As a poet, just call it neologism ;) 09:45
sbp it's occasionally spelt that way in Scots 09:47
moritz sbp: I only know 'dram' in the context of Scotland, and that's usually used when referring to beverages :-)
sbp hehe. I'm assuming it's dream in "His drem all hail he haith disclosit, / The houre, the nyght, and al the circumstans" 09:48
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masak "drem" sounds like a power drill brand. 09:49
but sbp++ clearly wins in the poetry department. 09:50
moritz indeed :-)
masak you know it's good poetry when you can spot quality right through centuries of spelling changes. 09:51
sbp pearl in the Dictionary of the Scots Language has the spellings "perl(l, peirl(e, peirll, peyrl; pearl(e; per(r)il(l; pairill" 09:53
so you could claim that perl is Scots too
perhaps TimToady has a secret kilt
(Scots for "cult" no doubt) 09:54
masak "Perl 6: my secret kilt"
sbp Peyrl6's syntax he haith disclosit 09:55
moritz has a Kilt at home, and wears it once per year
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sbp Burns Night? 09:55
moritz sbp: correct :-) 09:56
masak mmm, haggis. 09:57
moritz tasty stuff
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moritz and the desserts.... sticky toffee pudding is very nice :-) 09:57
masak ooh 09:58
sbp there's a restaurant in Cartmel, not quite in Scotland, where they do a molecular gastronomy meal of sticky toffee pudding: they call it stiffy taffy pudding, and it's the ingredients of one of those puddings served in gelatinous balls
you put them in your mouth one by one, slowly building up the flavour, making the recipe in your mouth 09:59
sorry, stiffy tacky. photo at www.flickr.com/photos/simonrudkin/2546099696/
moritz nice idea :-) 10:00
felher I guess arrays don't like me, lately... Is this problem already known? :) 10:01
nom: my @array = <a b c d>; @array .= grep: { $_ ~~ /<[a..c]>/ };
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«splice() not implemented in class 'Mu'␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3657␤ in method gimme at src/gen/CORE.setting:4015␤ in method eager at src/gen/CORE.setting:3991␤ in method STORE at src/gen/CORE.setting:4409␤ in method dispatch:<.=> at src/gen/CORE…
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TiMBuS i uh 10:10
nom: my @array = <a b c d>; @array = @array;
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤ in method infinite at src/gen/CORE.setting:4015␤ in method infinite at src/gen/CORE.setting:3713␤ in method infinite at src/gen/CORE.setting:4025␤ in method infinite at src/gen/CORE.setting:3713␤ in method infinite at src/gen/COR… 10:11
moritz TiMBuS: that one is already submitted
TiMBuS i see
but i dont :L
moritz src/core/ListIter.pm lines 64 to 70 10:12
that can only loop infinitely if nqp::atpos($!rest, 0) is the same as self 10:13
TiMBuS i see now 10:14
moritz both errors seems to imply that there's something fishy about parts of the array being shared in assignment
nom: my @array = <a b c d>; say @array.DUMP 10:15
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«Array<917942372475947312>(:items(RPA<917942372475951394>(▶"a", ▶"b", ▶"c", ▶"d")), :nextiter(▶Mu))␤»
TiMBuS and here i thought it might be a low fruit
moritz it might be, if you're familiar with the list/iterator thingy in general 10:16
TiMBuS augh!
(thats a no)
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TiMBuS when i made my language i just made every list lazy. problem solved 10:18
i also made the entire language lazy
i built it in my image 10:19
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felher Shall i submit the splice()-bug? (email at [email@hidden.address] with subject being the subject of the bug, i guess?) 10:20
TiMBuS needs an rt irc bot 10:21
felher TiMBuS: +1
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im2ee Hello! :) 10:47
masak im2ee: greetings, human! 10:49
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masak im2ee: any Perl 6 plans for the day? 11:01
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masak felher: yes, please do if you haven't already. 11:01
felher: quick subject line course: '[BUG] <what doesn't work> in Rakudo' 11:02
felher masak: k, thnx :) i'll do it as soon as i get postfix working with my relay-host :) 11:03
masak nom: sub postfix:<o.O>($value) { say "$value? really!?" }; 42o.O 11:04
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "42o.O"␤»
masak std: sub postfix:<o.O>($value) { say "$value? really!?" }; 42o.O 11:05
p6eval std 20ae3bd: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 127m␤»
masak who's right here?
niecza: sub postfix:<o.O>($value) { say "$value? really!?" }; 42o.O
p6eval niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«42? really!?␤»
masak seems STD.pm6 and Niecza are right.
masak submits rakudobug
felher: your "get postfix working" comment just found us a rakudobug! :P 11:06
felher masak: :D! 11:07
masak nom: sub postfix:<!>($n) { [*] 1..$n }; say 5!
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "say 5!"␤»
masak ok, so it's postfix ops in general that don't work yet.
b: sub postfix:<!>($n) { [*] 1..$n }; say 5!
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«120␤»
masak nom: our sub postfix:<!>($n) { [*] 1..$n }; say 5! 11:09
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "say 5!"␤»
masak ...and it's not that. good.
nom: sub infix:<%%%>($a, $b) { $a / 2 + $b * 3 }; say 4 %%% 7
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at line 1, near "% 7"␤»
masak ok, so it's not just postfix, it's operator overloading in general. 11:10
nom: sub infix:<+>($a, $b) { say "OH overloaded HAI" }; 2 + 2
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«OH overloaded HAI␤»
masak ...but it works with operators that already exist. 11:11
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felher masak: is it okay that way: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=100830 ? 11:26
masak TimToady: "Everyone is allowed to panic, once." -- you mentioned that the saying has been around from the start of Perl 6, i.e. 2000. but the spec patch about panic is from 2010-01-01... 11:27
felher: looks good.
im2ee masak, hmm, i have to learn physics today, so i don't know that i'll have enought time. :) 11:28
felher felher: good :)
moritz masak: it wasn't official before, but still best practice (to panic only once)
felher is afk for quite a while
masak im2ee: if only there were some way to dilate time... :P 11:29
moritz: I get that. even better practice, it would seem, would be not to panic at all.
moritz masak: but that's rather hard, I think
moritz has been close to panic a few times
masak but I can't recall hearing it before 2010, even unofficially.
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masak ooh, I actually found a mention from May 2009. 11:51
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masak but that's the earliest mention I can find in writing. 11:52
given a script file, is there a way to ask the question "is there a process running this script file?" in bash? 11:56
masak asks in #bash
I like the FAQ system that they're using over at #bash. it's a bit less human than replying at length in person, but boy is it effective! 12:00
for example, the answer to my question was mywiki.wooledge.org/BashFAQ/045
triggered by the bot command '!faq mutual > masak'
we should think of getting something like that :) 12:04
benabik masak: That sounds awesome. I also liked the bot in the #yapc channel that displayed a title for links posted in channel. I think it also shortened long URLs as well. 12:05
masak we used to have that. it can be nice. 12:06
benabik I suppose it's slightly less needed in a channel where people are unlikely to post horrible things. 12:07
masak yeah.
we don't have that problem. the closest we have is Chatmosphere users ;)
ooh, usink `mkdir` as an exclusive locking mechanism! 12:08
using*
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_flussence bah, stupid router's gone dead and I can't ssh in :( 12:21
moritz: tests ran fine, no hangs this time
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flussence ah, there we go 12:22
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flussence I'm thinking of writing Text::Tabs from a clean slate, to get rid of the existing baggage ($separator2 is a horrible var name), but I can't figure out what the heck the original algorithm is just by looking at the tests. 12:27
(and at this point, I'm not sure perfectly reproducing it is a great idea) 12:30
masak this is where tests are a nice thing to have. 12:32
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to port PGE to Perl 6 without the ample test suite.
flussence just wondering if I'm going insane, do the input/output strings on this look reasonable? github.com/flussence/Text-Tabs-Wra.../t/37000.t 12:34
I'm not sure where it decides to strip an \n off...
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flussence (99% of these tests are from the p5 original) 12:36
(also note that most of the tests don't currently pass, I was in the middle of a big refactoring) 12:40
masak I have this idea to implement Perl6::Trans for CPAN, providing the .trans function of Perl 6 in Perl 5. is anyone aware of any prior art? 12:41
benabik … I read that at first as "I want to port Perl6::Trans to perl 6". The other way around makes more sense. 12:46
flussence I did a quick search; turns up about 2 things that sounded like they *might* be string-related, but they aren't. I say go for it :D
masak what I want is the one-pass search-and replace with LTM-like behaviour. I wouldn't know how to do that in Perl 5 except for implementing the algorithm I wrote for Rakudo. that tells me there's a need for a module. 12:55
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masak perl6: class A { method x { say "A" } }; class B is A { method x { say "B" } }; class C is A { method x { say "C" } }; class D is B is C { method x { say "D" } }; class E is C { method x { say "E" } }; class F is D is E { method x { say "F" } }; F.new.*x 13:08
p6eval niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤NYI dottyop form .* at /tmp/Dr6zDT0kT9 line 1 (EOF):␤------> is E { method x { say "F" } }; F.new.*x⏏<EOL>␤␤␤Unhandled Exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 766 (COR…
..pugs: OUTPUT«F␤E␤C␤A␤»
..rakudo dc9ffc: OUTPUT«F␤D␤E␤B␤C␤A␤»
masak rakudo++
niecza: class A { method x { say "A" } }; class B is A { method x { say "B"; nextsame } }; B.new.x
p6eval niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«B␤A␤»
masak niecza: class A { method x { say "A" } }; class B is A { method x { say "B"; nextsame } }; class C is A { method x { say "C"; nextsame } }; class D is B is C { method x { say "D"; nextsame } }; class E is C { method x { say "E"; nextsame } }; class F is D is E { method x { say "F"; nextasme } }; F.new.x 13:10
p6eval niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'nextasme' used at line 1␤␤␤Unhandled Exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 766 (CORE die @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1136 (STD P6.comp_unit @ 3…
masak niecza: class A { method x { say "A" } }; class B is A { method x { say "B"; nextsame } }; class C is A { method x { say "C"; nextsame } }; class D is B is C { method x { say "D"; nextsame } }; class E is C { method x { say "E"; nextsame } }; class F is D is E { method x { say "F"; nextsame } }; F.new.x
p6eval niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«F␤D␤B␤E␤C␤A␤»
masak rakudo: class A { method x { say "A" } }; class B is A { method x { say "B"; nextsame } }; class C is A { method x { say "C"; nextsame } }; class D is B is C { method x { say "D"; nextsame } }; class E is C { method x { say "E"; nextsame } }; class F is D is E { method x { say "F"; nextsame } }; F.new.x
p6eval rakudo dc9ffc: OUTPUT«F␤D␤E␤B␤C␤A␤»
masak hah! 13:11
now. should I submit a rakudobug, or a nieczabug? :)
masak submits rakudobug
masak submits nieczabug
actually, from what I know of C3MRO, Rakudo is right here. 13:12
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masak in submitting that ticket, I could find nothing in the spec mentioning C3. but the Wikipedia article about C3 says that Perl 6 uses it, quoting an old Pugs blog post. 13:27
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flussence rakudo: class A { method a {} }; class B is A { method b {} }; class C is A { method c {} }; class D is B is C { method d {} }; say D.^methods».name 13:31
p6eval rakudo dc9ffc: OUTPUT«d b c a eager elems end classify infinite flat hash list pick roll reverse sort values keys kv pairs Array grep first join map min max minmax postcircumfix:<[ ]> at_pos all any one none postcircumfix:<{ }> reduce ACCEPTS WHERE WHICH WHY Bool so not defined new CREA…
flussence (I noticed the specs say "^methods lists in MRO order", just checking :) 13:32
masak that appears to work, then.
flussence and knowing that makes it easier for me to make sense of that huge list it usually returns 13:33
rakudo: class A { method a {} }; class B is A { method b {} }; class C is A { method c {} }; class D is B is C { method d {} }; say D.^methods(:local(3))».name 13:34
p6eval rakudo dc9ffc: OUTPUT«d␤»
flussence erm
shouldn't that show more than d()?
masak maybe :local($n) isn't implemented. 13:35
I didn't know such a thing existed...
flussence niecza: class A { method a {} }; class B is A { method b {} }; class C is A { method c {} }; class D is B is C { method d {} }; say D.^methods(:local(3))».name
p6eval niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: Unable to resolve method methods in class ClassHOW␤ at /tmp/ckfUdpxARi line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 6) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2133 (CORE C1024_ANON @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2134 (CORE m…
flussence b: class A { method a {} }; class B is A { method b {} }; class C is A { method c {} }; class D is B is C { method d {} }; say D.^methods(:local(3))».name 13:36
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«d␤»
masak oh, look S12 has it. cool.
flussence I think it was one of the more recent additions
masak though the description 'out $n levels' leaves open the question of whether :local(3) involves the class itself and two levels of parents, or the class itself and *three* levels of parents. 13:37
I think the former one would be the sane/consistent one.
flussence "same as caller()" would be sane, imo :) 13:38
masak also, I can't think of a single use for :private, not even a contrived one.
it's like asking what 'my' subs a class has. even with that information, I can't call them. 13:39
flussence unless you're within the class...
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masak then I would use a little technique known as "reading the source code" :P 13:40
colomon Gasp! Not the source code!! 13:41
masak but yeah, point. maybe I have some weirdo use case where I need to iterate over all the private methods and call each one once...
as moritz++ once blogged, lack of imagination is not grounds for forbidding a given usage ;) 13:42
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moritz you generally want information about private stuff when serializing an object or a class 13:45
masak perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/real-wor...-back.html 13:46
moritz: right, but private methods generally don't partake in serialization, do they? conceptually, they sit on the class, not on individual objects. 13:47
moritz masak: so, what if you want to serialize the class?
sent it to a remote host, deserialize and use it there?
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moritz the class is just an object after all 13:47
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masak ah, you mean the ClassHOW object? 13:50
moritz no, the YourClass type object
ClassHOW will hopefully exist on the remote host too :-)
masak nom: my @cards = [1, 11], 4, [1, 11]; say @cards.reduce({ @($^a) X+ @($^b) }).perl
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«(6, 16, 16, 26).list.item␤»
masak moritz: but type objects are just ordinary objects, except without attributes. 13:51
nom: my @cards = [1, 11], 4, [1, 11]; say @cards.reduce({ @^a X+ @^b }).perl
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«(6, 16, 16, 26).list.item␤»
masak moritz: ^ simplification in perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/blackjac...erl-6.html
moritz masak: hm, maybe we need need to serialize a a ClassHOW object then
masak you don't need to call the variables $^x and then cast to @, you can just call them @^x :)
I had not seen that blog post before. it seems a nice post to redirect people to who think that junctions are the answer to everything. 13:54
13:58 SHODAN left
masak niecza: .say for [X+] [1, 11], 4, [1, 11] 14:02
p6eval niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«8␤»
masak oh, the arrays are numified to 2.
niecza: .say for [X+] (1, 11), 4, (1, 11)
p6eval niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«28␤»
dalek kudo/eval-throws: 817dcc2 | moritz++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
make Exception False for now
kudo/eval-throws: f56944f | moritz++ | docs/ChangeLog:
update ChangeLog
masak niecza: say ([X+] (1, 11), 4, (1, 11)).perl 14:04
p6eval niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«28␤»
14:04 frettled joined
masak frettled! \o/ 14:04
m6locks any web frameworks for perl6 yet? 14:08
like this snapframework.com 14:09
masak the one listed on modules.perl6.org is github.com/supernovus/perl6-www-app/ 14:14
I haven't tried it.
I know there was some effort, and that mberends++ was a part of it, to port Dancer to Perl 6. 14:15
14:15 GlitchMr left
masak haven't seen any code for that, though. 14:15
moritz I think HTTP::Server::Simple was part of that effort
masak oh, ok.
14:19 koban left
tadzik there's my silly port: github.com/tadzik/bailador 14:22
masak nom: sub collatz($n) { $n % 2 ?? 3*$n + 1 !! $n / 2 }; .say for 25, { collatz $_ } ... 1
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«25␤76␤38␤19␤58␤29␤88␤44␤22␤11␤34␤17␤52␤26␤13␤40␤20␤10␤5␤16␤8␤4␤2␤1␤»
masak nom: sub collatz($n) { $n % 2 ?? 3*$n + 1 !! $n / 2 }; .say for 25, *.&collatz ... 1 14:23
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«25␤76␤38␤19␤58␤29␤88␤44␤22␤11␤34␤17␤52␤26␤13␤40␤20␤10␤5␤16␤8␤4␤2␤1␤»
masak \o/
moritz why not just &collatz? 14:24
masak nom: sub collatz($n) { $n % 2 ?? 3*$n + 1 !! $n / 2 }; .say for 25, &collatz ... 1
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«25␤76␤38␤19␤58␤29␤88␤44␤22␤11␤34␤17␤52␤26␤13␤40␤20␤10␤5␤16␤8␤4␤2␤1␤»
masak ooh!
nom: sub collatz($n) { $n % 2 ?? 3*$n + 1 !! $n / 2 }; .say for 27, &collatz ... 1
moritz extra currying considered extra
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«27␤82␤41␤124␤62␤31␤94␤47␤142␤71␤214␤107␤322␤161␤484␤242␤121␤364␤182␤91␤274␤137␤412␤206␤103␤310␤155␤466␤233␤700␤350␤175␤526␤263␤790␤395␤1186␤593␤1780␤890␤445␤1336␤668␤334␤167␤502␤251␤754␤377␤1132␤566␤283␤850␤425␤1276␤638␤319␤958␤479␤1438␤719␤2158␤1079␤3238␤1619␤4858␤24…
masak nom: sub collatz($n) { $n % 2 ?? 3*$n + 1 !! $n / 2 }; .say for (27, &collatz ... 1).elems 14:25
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«112␤»
masak er, that was silly.
nom: sub collatz($n) { $n % 2 ?? 3*$n + 1 !! $n / 2 }; say (27, &collatz ... 1).elems
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«112␤»
masak :)
nom: sub collatz($n) { $n % 2 ?? 3*$n + 1 !! $n / 2 }; .say ($_, &collatz ... 1).elems for 2..100 14:26
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near ".say ($_, "␤»
masak nom: sub collatz($n) { $n % 2 ?? 3*$n + 1 !! $n / 2 }; say ($_, &collatz ... 1).elems for 2..100
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«2␤8␤3␤6␤9␤17␤4␤20␤7␤15␤10␤10␤18␤18␤5␤13␤21␤21␤8␤8␤16␤16␤11␤24␤11␤112␤19␤19␤19␤107␤6␤27␤14␤14␤22␤22␤22␤35␤9␤110␤9␤30␤17␤17␤17␤105␤12␤25␤25␤25␤12␤12␤113␤113␤20␤33␤20␤33␤20␤20␤108␤108␤7␤28␤28␤28␤15␤15␤15␤103␤23␤116␤23␤15␤23␤23␤36␤36␤10␤23␤111␤111␤
masak Collatz is a nice example of how very little it takes to create some chaos. 14:27
moritz this is where I start to wish we had SVG output for IRC :-)
masak hey, it's your logs :P 14:28
moritz but just the logs 14:29
14:36 pothos left 14:37 pothos_ joined, pothos_ is now known as pothos
moritz nom: enum SVG::Plot::AxisPosition <Zero SmallestValue LargestValue>; 14:40
p6eval nom dc9ffc: ( no output )
14:40 bluescreen10 left
moritz weird thing is, putting the same file in lib/SVG/Plot.pm and running 'make' throws the weiredest compilation error 14:40
PAST::Compiler can't compile node of type SVG::Plot::AxisPosition
make: *** [blib/lib/SVG/Plot.pir] Error 1
maybe that's related to --target 14:41
yep 14:42
moritz submits rakudobug 14:44
sorear masak: I'd like to understand that proof [disjoint-set-forests] someday too. I enjoy ignoring my limitations
moritz jnthn: and you now have "owner" privs on the 'perl6' github organization 14:46
slavik1 rm -rf *
:D
?
moritz: does jnthn own you now?
moritz OWNOEZ 14:47
slavik1: it's slightly less convenient than rm -rf *, but as an owner you can delete all repos from your organization
nom: my $ = 3; my $ = 5 14:48
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol $ at line 1, near " = 5"␤»
14:50 slavik1 left, slavik2 joined
TimToady maybe we should rename $_ to $ :) 14:51
masak sorear: I had the idea to make a list of things I'd like to grok before 2012 is over :) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch%E2%80..._algorithm would be on that list.
nom: my $; my $
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $; variable; in Perl 6 please use real multidimensional hashes at line 1, near " my $"␤»
masak wtf
moritz would like to grok Perl 6 by end of 2012
masak std: my $; my $ 14:52
14:52 wtw left
p6eval std 20ae3bd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $; variable; in Perl 6 please use real multidimensional hashes at /tmp/co7uGWP9VI line 1:␤------> my $;⏏ my $␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤» 14:52
moritz masak: RT #76986
masak oh, I guess it doesn't make much sense to declare a $ that way anyway ;)
moritz: yeah; I half-remembered that one.
nom: my @ = 1, 2, 3; my @ = 4, 5, 6 14:54
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol @ at line 1, near " = 4, 5, 6"␤»
masak nom: my % = foo => 1; my % = bar => 2
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol % at line 1, near " = bar => "␤»
masak nom: my & = {;}; my & = {; say "OH NOES!" }
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol & at line 1, near " = {; say "␤»
moritz nom: my (@, $); 14:55
p6eval nom dc9ffc: ( no output )
masak nom: my (@, @)
p6eval nom dc9ffc: ( no output )
moritz nom: my ($, $);
p6eval nom dc9ffc: ( no output )
moritz nom: my @ ; my @ ;
masak nom: my ($, @, %, $, @, @, &, &)
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol @ at line 1, near " ;"␤»
nom dc9ffc: ( no output )
moritz nom: my ($a, $a) 14:56
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol $a at line 1, near ")"␤»
14:56 bluescreen10 joined
masak .oO( eight anonymous variables walk into a sigil ) 14:56
er, signature* 14:57
TimToady std: my ($a, $a)
p6eval std 20ae3bd: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Useless redeclaration of variable $a (see line 1) at /tmp/KMWNsYECJR line 1:␤------> my ($a, ⏏$a)␤ok 00:01 121m␤»
TimToady STD doesn't consider it a fatal
moritz rakudo doesn't have compile time warnings at all
14:58 kaleem joined
moritz does t/spec/S02-lexical-conventions/sub-block-parsing.rakudo fail for anybody besides me? 14:59
15:00 tzhs left
ingy TimToady: you coming to PPW? 15:00
15:01 slavik2 left, slavik1 joined
TimToady nope 15:01
ingy :'( 15:03
15:05 kaleem left
TimToady t/spec/S02-lexical-conventions/sub-block-parsing.rakudo ... Failed 1/4 subtests (less 2 skipped subtests: 1 okay) 15:06
masak learns that etymologically, "complex" has to do with braiding, while "complicated" has to do with folding 15:07
15:08 baest left 15:09 mtk left, mtk joined
moritz is about to get sick 15:11
sore throat, weird warm/cold perception etc *sneeze* 15:12
15:13 GlitchMr joined
PerlJam moritz: quick! drink some orange juice 15:13
dalek kudo/nom: 1c2c2d4 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
do not complain about double declared anon variables
masak moritz: gesuntheit
moritz PerlJam: I have only water available right now, but will be back home in ~30min, then I'll try that 15:14
masak: danke
15:15 espadrine joined 15:16 espadrine left 15:17 espadrine joined
moritz nom: *.() 15:17
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:<( )>' not found for invocant of class 'Whatever'␤ in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:3164␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/WUCKN0KIf7:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/WUCKN0KIf7:1␤»
masak PerlJam: 'cus of antioxidants?
moritz we should give that a better error message
PerlJam masak: vitamin C
15:17 espadrine left
moritz along the lines of "you tried to invoke a Whatever, which means your ideas of currying likely don't match ours. See short/url for an in-depth explanation" 15:18
masak PerlJam: right. because of vitamin C's role as an antioxidant? :) 15:19
TimToady nom: my $x = *.[2]; say $x([<a b c d>]); 15:20
masak lately I've learned that currying and partial function application are almost opposite things.
p6eval nom dc9ffc: OUTPUT«c␤»
15:20 espadrine joined
masak don't remember now where I read it. 15:20
PerlJam masak: they aren't opposites, they just aren't the same thing.
moritz well, currying is a bit like partial application with a negative arity :-)
PerlJam There was an article about it recently on one of the perl blogs I do believe 15:21
masak yes.
moritz the result of currying has more parameters than the input
the result of partial application has fewer parameters than the input
PerlJam moritz: that jibes with how I'd describe it: currying is a specific type of partial function application :)
masak currying had something to do with getting away with your language having only one-parameter functions. 15:22
this is actually implicit in Haskell's syntax, IIRC. 15:23
PerlJam masak: rampant use of function composition ala Haskell
moritz my languages has not only one-parameter functions :-)
masak moritz: :P
moritz s/es/e/
15:24 espadrine left
mux having currying support in the language ala haskell, is what allows you to have partial application working without adding any specific feature; they're not the same but they are intimately related 15:24
moritz
.oO( they are in the same idea line, but in different quadrants )
 15:25
masak hey! a line doesn't have quadrants! :P
mux "currying supoprt in the language" may be better expressed as masak said, that is saying the currying is implicit in haskell
moritz masak: well, two
well, duants more than quadrants 15:26
masak yes. duants.
moritz just imagine the line being inside a plane :-)
masak duants singing a duet and having a duel.
15:26 dark_x left
masak or possibly biants. 15:26
PerlJam dead ants? 15:27
adam ants?
sjohnson bionic ants
masak fancy ants
sjohnson ant0r
TimToady "currying" and "partial function application" are badly huffman coded, relatively speaking 15:28
PerlJam inversely huffman coded (relatively) 15:29
:-)
TimToady the specs use "curry" the wrong way in various places 15:30
mux oh well, some libs even have a curry function/method that actually does partial application
(prototype.js does IIRC)
TimToady pfa needs a better name 15:31
15:31 kmwallio left
mux it's this kind of things that everyone gets wrong for some reason 15:31
TimToady doesn't recall where he picked up the usage
PerlJam TimToady: it had to have been one of the FP languages. 15:32
15:33 espadrine joined
mux www.prototypejs.org/api/function/curry 15:34
someone should tell them, some day 15:35
PerlJam if you google "currying partial function application" you'll see lots of articles where people explain the difference or admit confusing about the difference, etc. 15:36
masak I think Perl 6 should set a high standard here. 15:39
let's start with the spec.
TimToady no, I started with rosettacode :) 15:40
mikemol ^^
masak fairynuff.
TimToady rosettacode.org/mw/index.php?title=...did=114056 15:41
but before we fix the spec, I'd like to think a bit about whether we can come up with a shorter term for it, like we did for hashes 15:42
masak "uncurry" :)
TimToady partial function application is even worse than associative array
PerlJam TimToady: acronyming isn't good enough?
TimToady pfa!
masak :P
I think there's prior art for "uncurry", even.
benabik masak: uncurrying is also wrong. In functional languages, currying is taking a function (x,y) -> z and getting x -> y -> z and uncurry is the reverse. 15:43
TimToady yes, this ain't uncurrying
masak ah. dang.
I still don't grok this. :)
15:43 espadrine left
TimToady partial function application would obviously be funapp or some such :) 15:44
masak ok, currying/uncurrying refers to how the arguments are represented: as distinct arguments, or as tuples. www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Currying 15:45
PerlJam associative array -> hash was awesome because it became a single, short word. I don't see that happening for PFA
TimToady unfortunately, "assuming" is the wrong valence, since you're assuming the args, not the function
TimToady has a gut feeling there's a word there that'll work 15:46
mikemol "Assemble" seems obvious to me.
15:47 Holy_Cow joined, Holy_Cow left
TimToady but you're not assembling the function, you're assembling (some of) its arguments 15:47
so same trouble as "assuming"
mikemol Freezing?
Sticking? Locking?
TimToady slushing :)
benabik I seem to recall there was some language that used "with". &g = &f.with($a) 15:48
flussence .preset?
mikemol benabik: That seems withering.
TimToady forcing
mikemol Feeding?
Preparing?
TimToady mix-uppable with feed operators
PerlJam conceptual confusion with ... what TimToady said
PerlJam needs to read and type faster :)
mikemol Prepping. Readying. Priming. 15:49
TimToady priming is nice
mikemol Kinda opens the way to the title for masak's explanation blog post. "Primer on priming..." 15:50
masak priming! \o/
PerlJam Are all of the candidates going to be gerunds?
That seems ... odd.
15:50 GlitchMr left
TimToady "currying" 15:50
has to also work as a verb
TimToady continues to unashamedly split his infinitives 15:51
benabik TimToady: In public? 15:52
masak "the usefulness of a map is not necessarily a matter of its literal truthfulness, but its having a structure analogous, for the purpose at hand, to the territory" -- paraphrased, Gregory Bateson
PerlJam Well, I was thinking more like "fill" or something
maybe "bias" ? 15:53
TimToady could be something in that metaphor-space, but filling implies it gets full
bias implies you can unbias later
PerlJam okay, so "priming " sounds best so far :) 15:54
TimToady maybe something in the "defaulting" space, but that's pretty heavily overloaded
and also implies undefaulting, which is wrongish 15:55
in the sense that an assumed param can't be overridden
flussence .given? or would the parser flip out at seeing that? :)
TimToady givening?
flussence give
TimToady works not for me :)
sjohnson heh, reminds me of givening 15:56
err, havening
havening from: chroniclesofgeorge.nanc.com/
flussence
.oO( argh, seeing that word 3 times in a row made it look odd )
masak sjohnson: I was thinking of George too! sjohnson++ 15:57
PerlJam TimToady: wield?
benabik Random thought… Does .assuming (or whatever we're calling it now) accept Whatevers? so (sub($a, $b, $c) {…}).assuming(1,*,3) gives a one arg function?
sjohnson oh that silly george
PerlJam heh ... &func.apply(a => 3) # PFA indeed :) 15:58
TimToady benabik: I had the same thought a minute ago; we'd have to teach .assuming to treat * as a missing arg, is all
PerlJam or, continuing with mangling PFA ... partial/partialed 15:59
TimToady but I don't think we can overload apply like that, since "partial application" includes the word "partial" for a reason
15:59 Alias joined
PerlJam parted? 15:59
masak TimToady: that solves the age-old problem of .assuming positionals in any order you want! \o/
16:00 risou_awy is now known as risou
moritz then how do you partially-apply a Whatever? 16:00
TimToady masak: well, in theory Nil would work the same already
a Whatever is what you *don't* apply
but we could say that Nil is a real arg to .assuming, and forces use of the function's default 16:01
and use * for skipped arg
masak moritz: just enclose it in parentheses :P 16:02
masak decommutes
16:02 nebuchadnezzar left 16:03 Alias_ joined 16:04 Alias_ left
TimToady you could always pass a Whatever instead of a *, and make .assuming only respond to defined whatevers 16:04
16:04 nebuchadnezzar joined
PerlJam words to think about : mould, construct, build, contract, abridge, rive ... you have to use your imagination a bit to see where I'm going with these :) 16:05
TimToady wonders if there's a word that means the opposite of "whatevering" 16:06
16:06 preflex_ joined
TimToady well, since the function is "thinner", you could have "extruding" :) 16:06
mikemol specifying
16:06 preflex left, preflex_ is now known as preflex
TimToady specifying is, unfortunately, too overloaded in the culture already 16:06
mikemol exacting. *consults thesaurus* 16:07
TimToady refining
mikemol +1
16:07 Alias left
mikemol Has refined taste, unlike my puns. 16:07
stern 16:09
PerlJam prescribe? :)
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TimToady constrain is taken, alas 16:12
PerlJam maybe it's time to troll spanish or french or something
according to google, "zwingen" is german for constrain :) 16:14
Patterner I'd rather say "forcing someone to do something" 16:15
TimToady .o( arguing with a function :) 16:17
persuading a function by giving it arguments :) 16:20
coaxing 16:21
16:21 MayDaniel joined
TimToady teasing 16:21
priming still works about as well as anything 16:22
perl6: my &grepʹ = &grep.assuming(* %% 2); say grepʹ 0..9; 16:25
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«decodeUTF8': bad data: '\697'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\697'␤*** ␤ Unexpected "&grep\697"␤ expecting "=", operator, ":", ")", context or "("␤ at /tmp/GFfxe4ABup line 1, column 4␤»
..rakudo 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«0 2 4 6 8␤»
..niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Confused at /tmp/nM7P8VbLm9 line 1:␤------> my &grep⏏ʹ = &grep.assuming(* %% 2); say grepʹ 0.␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
TimToady rakudo++
moritz .u ʹ 16:26
phenny U+02B9 MODIFIER LETTER PRIME (ʹ)
TimToady nom: say 'ʹ' ~~ /\w/
p6eval nom 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«=> <ʹ>␤␤»
TimToady nom: say so 'ʹ' ~~ /\w/ 16:27
p6eval nom 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
TimToady nom: say so '′' ~~ /\w/
p6eval nom 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
TimToady is what's going on there
16:28 ponbiki left
TimToady cheating by using the wrong prime 16:28
benabik .u ′ 16:29
phenny U+2032 PRIME (′)
TimToady ⁗ <- primal scream therapy 16:32
.u ⁗
phenny U+2057 QUADRUPLE PRIME (⁗)
colomon not a letter? 16:33
benabik nom: say so '⁗' ~~ /\w/
p6eval nom 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
TimToady no, alas
it would take a special dispensation from the identifier token to recognize them, as we did for - and ' medially 16:34
and I'm not *quite* ready to throw open the doors to Unicode that wide, but in the long run, I'll want the set opertors in there by default, probably 16:38
*rat
and we should probably recognize civilized single and double quotes for when someone cuts and pastes from an e-book with an over-zealous copyeditor... 16:39
but our implementations need to get a better handle on processing Unicode efficiently before we force that issue 16:43
[Coke] moritz: auto-unfudge is your baby, yes? 16:47
moritz [Coke]: yes 16:48
[Coke] trying to run it on niecza, and it insists that the tests don't pass in the current state. I commented out the -keep-exit-code (the test does have an exit value of 1), but it's still complaining. Any suggestions? 16:49
(I have made a shell script so I can invoke ./perl6, and have copied over tools/perl6-limited.pl)
moritz [Coke]: I'll look into it later 16:50
[Coke] (only real change to autounfudge was the impl name.
moritz: ok. nothing's committed, so don't go crazy.
I'll have some time to dig in later this evening localtime.
moritz [Coke]: which OS? 16:51
16:53 GlitchMr joined 16:55 dakkar left 16:59 molaf left
dalek ecs: d1124cf | larry++ | S (6 files):
s/currying/priming/

Currying really means treating multi-arg functions as compositions of single-arg functions, so we should avoid misusing it the way most other people misuse it. :)		 16:59
TimToady next question, should we rename .assuming to .priming? 17:00
it's shorter :)
colomon and less clear. :)
TimToady indeed, a good argument for not doint ig
o.O
wow, that was a real brane short-circuit 17:01
PerlJam .assuming has always read well
TimToady since there are two forms of priming, it's probably just as well not to confuse one of them with the whole
colomon TimToady: might be worth mentioning currying once or twice next to priming just so people looking for currying don't get lost in the spec. 17:02
afk
PerlJam why would people look for currying ? :)
TimToady they should look for partial function application :)
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masak \o/ # home 17:09
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tadzik o/ 17:11
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masak congratulations on the addition of 'priming' to the vocabulary. 17:13
sometimes I feel that the whole Perl 6 effort is as much creating a set of concepts to program by, as it is building a set of implementations to program with ;) 17:14
PerlJam sometimes?
masak er.
PerlJam isn't that what language design *is*?
masak I mean that less inanely than it came out. :P 17:15
jasonmay I know what you mean
masak maybe that's what language design is. it... it just feels like we do it more than most.
TimToady spreads a layer of anity onto masak++'s utterance
masak but maybe I'm exhibiting cultural bias and nothing else.
python people: "hey, we invent stuff too! look, we have iterators *and* generators!" 17:16
TimToady we are certainly trying to err on the side of making too many distinctions with Perl 6, on the assumption that if two things are really the same thing underneath, this will become obvious from the implementations
PerlJam masak: don't forget "look, we have real closures now too" :)
TimToady and also on the assumption that we can hide most of the subtler distinctions from newbies at the beginning 17:17
mikemol muses over the variety of langauges he's seen, what their purpose is, and what they add.
PerlJam masak: Perl 6 culture benefits from TimToady's broad experience, where most other languages tend to have a more narrow focus or even if their focus is wide reaching they haven't got the technical know-how to quite pull it all together (PHP for instance) 17:18
TimToady part of Perl's mandate is to change the culture (including the human language) in addition to the computer language 17:19
but when we coin new usages, we do try to be very careful not to add to the overloading problem that is already rampant in CS culture 17:20
PerlJam hands TimToady an spherical object of uniform density. 17:22
TimToady has already had many cows in the past
PerlJam masak: perhaps that's the defining characteristic of Perl 6 culture: it's meta-aware of itself. :) 17:23
TimToady
.oO(Perl 6 is a hyperbolic object of fluctuating destiny...)
mikemol Beware the hyperbole. 17:24
TimToady You speak too elliptically...
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mikemol I follow the general arc. 17:24
TimToady circles the wagons... 17:25
mikemol sighs. Sine of the times...
TimToady hey, that's not a conic section! 17:26
mikemol Heh. Well, enough of this tangent. I've got to focus on work some more.
TimToady tries to make a pun on parables but fales
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colomon PerlJam: Maybe people will be looking for currying because we spent the last N years telling them that was the word for partial function application in p6? ;) 17:32
dalek ecs: 2b77c58 | larry++ | S02-bits.pod:
mention currying for searchability, colomon++
 17:42
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PerlJam currying: this is not the word you are looking for. 17:48
masak waves an optional parameter suggestively 17:51
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Fuad hello 18:01
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sjohnson Fuad: hi 18:04
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[Coke] moritz: OS X 18:08
masak Fuad: hey man! 18:09
Fuad masak: yo! 18:10
masak yo bro
Fuad how have you been, bro ?
masak Fuad: pretty fine. what about you, bro? 18:11
Fuad masak: glad to hear that:) Im doing fine, thanks!
masak wonderful. 18:12
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colomon TimToady++ 18:37
sjohnson colomon: hi 18:39
colomon sjohnson: o/
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[Coke] ugh. 747 tickets. 40 tickets blocking on tests. wrong direction! 18:58
Hey, TimToady, can I throw a spec ticket at you? 18:59
TimToady well, if the answer's not obvious, I'll probably ignore it :) 19:00
[Coke] picking one at mostly random: 19:01
rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=63778
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[Coke] Just want to make sure the spec tickets don't starve. 19:01
masak love the title. 19:02
pmichaud++ 19:03
TimToady that one is not obvious :)
but it's probably good to stick it back into my subconscious 19:04
masak sort, min, max
they all have this problem. something about those functions and types that doesn't mesh.
TimToady all cmp, really
masak well, yeah. 19:05
maybe infix:<cmp> is just a pipe dream.
you can't compare heterogenous types, no matter how much it'd be nice to.
TimToady well, but one would at least like to not astound the user occasionally 19:06
masak by the way, how do those little val() monsters cmp?
TimToady which probably means forcing some semantics in the Numeric domain and the Stringy domain 19:07
masak the only time I've seen Perl 6 users astounded by cmp semantics was back in 2009 on szabgab++'s course when some people tried to &sort a list of numbers from lines()
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TimToady they are considered first of all to be the intuitied type, and stringy as as afterthought 19:08
masak and they got infix:<leg> semantics, of course.
well, that takes care of that problem, at least. 19:09
[Coke] masak: your job is to summarize TimToady's ramblings here into something coherent on the ticket. ;)
TimToady is not going to ramble on the subject of cmp today, having circumnavigated that globe several times already
masak [Coke]: nothing we've said so far is really relevant to the ticket... :)
TimToady be happy my backbrane will work on it some more 19:10
masak well, pmichaud's is a really pointed, really good question.
and our answer so far is "ummm...."
:)
this isn't me panicking, by the way. I'm just kvetchin' 19:11
TimToady I don't mind you asking kvetchin's. :)
masak I knew you'd say that :P
prammer is reminded of a recent talk that included: doing min() right is actually kinda hard 19:12
TimToady if I'm so predictable, you should tell me what I'll decide about cmp :P
masak TimToady: maybe I do know but I don't like your decision :P
TimToady there's something not to like about any way it comes out, like all the various voting systems 19:13
masak .oO( the battle... for the FUTURE )
TimToady maybe we should give cmp instant runoff semantics :) 19:14
masak *lol*
put cmp inside a booth which cannot be compromised.
TimToady problem is, machine voting is very difficult to secure
masak so is cmp, it seems.
TimToady and another problem is that if we ask multiple cores to vote, we're likely to have an even number of cores, and then who gets the tiebreaker? 19:15
masak or rather, there isn't much of a middle ground between "it does too little" and "it does too much".
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masak TimToady: the GPU! 19:16
masak tweets this
sjohnson heh 19:17
tweeter and the perl6 man
TimToady If tweeters tweet on twitter, do woofers woof on wiffer? 19:20
sjohnson i think so
tadzik so _that_'s what a subwoofer is... 19:21
sjohnson Martin Luther King once said, "You've no need to light a nightlight on a light night like tonight."
TimToady
.oO(A Little Night Light Music...)
 19:22
masak has a light night snack 19:24
sjohnson mmm /me is hungry 19:25
TimToady The narcolpsis strikes! <more>
TimToady falls over asleep.
masak oh noes, TimToady was struck down by a narcoleptician! 19:26
sjohnson pops a brown paper bag 19:28
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sjohnson A tutor who tooted the flute 19:34
Tried to tutor two tooters to toot
Said the two to the tutor
"Is it tougher to toot
Or to tutor two tooters to toot?"
tadzik woot 19:35
sjohnson heh 19:37
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sjohnson i would like the know the answer to that question 19:37
masak nom: $_ = 'toot'; s/$/er/; .say; s/oo(.)e/u $0 o/; .say 19:47
p6eval nom 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«tooter␤tu or␤»
masak is that a known/submitted bug? 19:48
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[Coke] when you submit that, you can golf it down to just the 2nd regexp 19:55
masak of course :)
nom: $_ = 'a'; s/(.)/$0/; .say 19:56
p6eval nom 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«␤»
masak submits rakudobug
sjohnson: your poem just found us a rakudobug! :)
sjohnson nice!
masak++ 19:57
Masak the Buggy Hunter 19:58
masak it's a doity job. but somebuddy's goita do it. 19:59
sjohnson haha 20:00
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hamza is there any interface to redis or mongo db written in perl6? 20:11
masak it's funny you should ask. 20:12
github.com/slunski/perl6-simple-redis 20:13
hamza what is funny? 20:14
masak well it's a bit of a coincidence because it was written quite recently. 20:15
hamza oh lol well i guess am lucky man
im2ee Have to go. :) 20:16
Good night #perl6! :)
'branoc ! :)
masak 'branoc!
im2ee o/
jnthn 'branoc!
im2ee \o
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masak \o/ 20:16
frettled masak: Sorry to disappoint you, my imitation of activity came from an auto-rejoin after a server FU. :) 20:17
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sjohnson phenny: "branoc"? 20:18
phenny sjohnson: Language guessing failed, so try suggesting one!
sjohnson phenny: "branoc"? esperonto
phenny: "branoc"? esperanto 20:19
BAH!
jnthn sjohnson: Good luck with that. ;-) It's a multi-language pun.
sjohnson: dobranoc is Polish for "goodnight"
sjohnson: But "bra" in Swedish means good/well. :)
So the abbreviation 'branoc sounds kinda cute :)
masak I had made the connection to Swedish, but I don't think tadzik (who originated the expression here) had. 20:21
frettled: doesn't diminish the happiness I feel seeing you :)
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jnthn masak: oh :) 20:21
tadzik 'branoc is like 'night
jnthn Well, I just assume everything is a pun :P
masak to you, it is :P 20:22
frettled masak: yay \o/
20:24 Fuad left
masak bra natt, #perl6! 20:24
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sjohnson bronoc => "night 'bros" 20:34
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soh_cah_toa perl6: class Foo { method foo() { say 'foobar' } }; class Bar { has Foo $.foo .= new handles 'foo' }; my $bar = Bar.new; $bar.foo 21:51
p6eval rakudo 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 1␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected ".="␤ expecting trait, "handles", default value or "}"␤ at /tmp/I0i5qETKAZ line 1, column 72␤»
..niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Two terms in a row (method call requires colon or parens to take arguments) at /tmp/6y7dLmEF1A line 1:␤------> ' } }; class Bar { has Foo $.foo .= new ⏏handles 'foo' }; my $bar = Bar.new; $bar␤␤Parse faile…
soh_cah_toa you can't give a default value to an attribute that handles a method? 21:52
or, instantiate in this case. whatever 21:53
though, i suppose i could just give $.foo a default value in the signature for new() and still have it handle foo() 21:54
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soh_cah_toa perl6: class Foo { method foo() { say 'foobar' } }; class Bar { has Foo $.foo handles 'foo'; submethod BUILD($.foo = Foo.new) { } }; my $bar = Bar.new; $bar.foo 21:56
p6eval niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Action method trait_mod:handles not yet implemented at /tmp/G8HhNN2Es6 line 1:␤------> class Bar { has Foo $.foo handles 'foo'⏏; submethod BUILD($.foo = Foo.new) { } }␤␤␤Unhandled Exception: Cannot use ha…
..pugs: ( no output )
..rakudo 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Package 'Bar' already has a method 'foo'; did you mean to declare a multi-method?␤»
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jnthn has Foo $.foo handles 'foo' = Foo.new 22:01
The trait has to come before the =
soh_cah_toa ah, whoops ;)
jnthn You wouldn't be the first person to trip up on this one :) 22:02
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soh_cah_toa btw, why can't 'our' variables be typed? 22:02
jnthn Because it doesn't make sense.
benabik std: our Int $x;
p6eval std 20ae3bd: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
jnthn Well, yes, it's easy to make it make sense if you don't have to run any code :P 22:03
soh_cah_toa why not?
jnthn { our Int $foo; } ...far far away but in the same package... { our Str $foo; }
benabik jnthn: Often std has informative error messages if you try to do something that doesn't make sense.
jnthn benabik: Yes, though more for parse-y things. 22:04
I'm pretty sure niecza doesn't let you stick types on our-scoped variables either.
niecza: our Str $foo
p6eval niecza v10-39-g64c5778: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Common variables are not unique definitions and may not have types at /tmp/Ua4a5_sK05 line 1 (EOF):␤------> our Str $foo⏏<EOL>␤␤␤Unhandled Exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.se…
soh_cah_toa jnthn: what are you trying show w/ that example?
jnthn soh_cah_toa: That "our" declarations are lexical aliases to a variable stored in a package. 22:05
soh_cah_toa: And you can declare that alias in multiple lexical scopes, and have it refer to the same thing.
So you could feasibly end up saying it's Str in one place and Int in another.
Which doesn't make a load of sense.
soh_cah_toa ah, interesting 22:06
jnthn We maybe could find a way to handle is, somehow. Perhaps. But it'd be kinda messy for one, and for another I just don't really see people use our-scoped variables that much.
soh_cah_toa so when you say 'our $foo' in a lexical scope like in a sub, that doesn't actually declare a new package scoped variable but instead aliases an already declared one? 22:07
jnthn (in Perl 6)
soh_cah_toa: Well, it's more like auto-vivification.
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jnthn The package's stash is really just a hash. 22:07
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soh_cah_toa so if there isn't one, then it does create a package-scoped variable 22:07
jnthn Yes.
soh_cah_toa ok
benabik
.oO( Auto-declaration )
 22:08
jnthn It's like you can do
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jnthn nom: module Foo { }; $Foo::x = 42; say $Foo::x 22:08
p6eval nom 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«42␤»
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jnthn nom: module Foo { }; $Foo::x = 42; say $Foo.WHO<$x> 22:08
p6eval nom 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$Foo' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/zbL62CT_1c:1)␤»
jnthn nom: module Foo { }; $Foo::x = 42; say Foo.WHO<$x>
p6eval nom 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«42␤»
jnthn Or that.
.WHO gives you that underlying hash for the package. 22:09
soh_cah_toa $Foo::x = 42 auto-vivifies, correct? 22:10
jnthn Yes
soh_cah_toa even outside it's scope? cool
jnthn $Foo::x = 42 really does compile to Foo.WHO<$x> = 42
nom: module Foo { }; say Foo.WHO.^mro # also telling :) 22:11
p6eval nom 1c2c2d: OUTPUT«Stash() Hash() EnumMap() Iterable() Cool() Any() Mu()␤»
jnthn It really is just a hash.
soh_cah_toa this may be a noob question but how does Foo.WHO<$x> and $Foo.WHO<$x> differ? 22:12
jnthn $Foo would refer to a variable Foo
I thinko'd when I wrote it above
Foo refers to a package (provided one is declared) 22:13
soh_cah_toa ah, i thought you need :: for that. as in ::Foo
jnthn When we compile something like $Foo::x we actually have to pull of the $ and shuffle it over to the $x. 22:14
soh_cah_toa i see
jnthn *off
And $Foo::Bar::x is compiled to something like Foo.WHO<Bar>.WHO<$x> 22:15
soh_cah_toa so does Foo.WHO<$x> = $Foo::x?
ah, you beat me
ok
jnthn Yeah, $Foo::x is really just a bit of sugar :) 22:16
soh_cah_toa neat ;)
jnthn Of course, getting Stash.WHO to work took a little knot tying.. :) 22:17
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soh_cah_toa yeah, i can imagine 22:17
jnthn Well, it's still not as bad as knowhow_bootstrapper.c :)
cognominal___ is there a pod2html-ator?
jnthn cognominal___: As in, Perl 6 Pod? 22:18
cognominal___ yes
jnthn Pretty sure tadzik++ made one as part of his Pod work
And used it to render S26 :)
cognominal___ I see only a Pod::To::Text in rakudo. 22:19
benabik github.com/perl6/Pod-To-HTML
cognominal___ nice 22:20
jnthn ah, there it is
jnthn was looking on modules.perl6.org
benabik just googled "tadzik pod html". :-)
jnthn tadzik: Any reason Pod::To::HTML is missing on modules.perl6.org? :)
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lue debates porting NQP to LLVM to compile rakudo to LLVM or just creating a new P6 compiler on LLVM with himself 22:34
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arnsholt lue: Effort-wise, porting NQP to LLVM is probably the easier out 22:37
And even that is a decidedly non-trivial task I think
soh_cah_toa kinda likes that idea 22:38
jnthn It's strongly desired, but certainly non-trivial.
22:38 Trashlord left
jnthn has spent a little time looking into it 22:39
LLVM looks really awesome, but it sure is LL. :) 22:40
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TimToady maybe .WHO should really be .WHO'S-WHO 22:43
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jnthn o.O 22:45
diakopter the biggest challenge to doing anything like that on LLVM is rolling your own GC 22:46
jnthn diakopter: Yeah. 22:47
diakopter: LLVM provides appropriate hooks for you to do quite a range of them.
diakopter oh, good
jnthn has got to the generational chapter in shiny new GC handbook, but didn't get to the concurrent ones yet :)
benabik llvm.org/docs/GarbageCollection.html
jnthn If I'm gonna write a GC, I at least want the fun of writing a concurrent one. ) 22:48
:)
soh_cah_toa jnthn: which book?
jnthn fondly remembers his concurrency lecturer
lue GC==Garbage Collection, right? [just making sure, I'm 99% sure of this]
jnthn soh_cah_toa: The Garbage Collection Handbook, iirc 22:49
soh_cah_toa: Was released this August.
www.crcpress.com/product/isbn/9781420082791
soh_cah_toa jnthn: richard jones, antony hosking, and eliot moss?
jnthn yup
Certainly the first 7 or 8 chapters are very readable. 22:50
soh_cah_toa nice, i just got it myself. was reading it about 3 minutes ago outside ;)
jnthn :)
soh_cah_toa was reading about the two-finger compacting algorithm
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soh_cah_toa would it even be possible for rakudo to use it's own gc and ignore parrot's? 22:51
jnthn heh, you get to bash the threaded compaction into your head next :) 22:52
soh_cah_toa yikes
jnthn I had to read that one about 3 times before I got it. Then they point out all the disadvantages
It's not threaded as in multi-threaded.
Just some...exquisite...pointer fiddlery :) 22:53
soh_cah_toa yeah, it's definitely not a light read
jnthn It could be a much heavier one too; the authors seem good at explaining stuff clearly.
soh_cah_toa indeed 22:54
benabik soh_cah_toa: With some carefully written ops and dynpmcs you could probably manage a second GC inside of Parrot. Doesn't sound like a good idea though.
jnthn I...wouldn't fancy that.
benabik It probably would be more work than just improving Parrot's GC. :-) 22:55
soh_cah_toa at that rate, there'd be very little left of rakudo that would be "parrot"
TimToady old parrot, anyway 22:57
it might look a lot like new parrot 22:58
jnthn "new parrot"?
jnthn is pretty detached from the Parrot world these days
TimToady just depends on how much gets borrowed back from Perl 6
they're already thinking about 6model
jnthn Ah, I knew that bit. 22:59
TimToady I think long term Perl 6 is the only thing that is going to save Parrot, because people just aren't that interested in interoperability unless it can be efficient 23:00
soh_cah_toa agreed
jnthn *nod* 23:01
TimToady and Parrot can't get there without solving the gradual typing problem
jnthn ...which 6model goes a long way towards doing. 23:02
But yeah, it'd need pushing deeper, and 6model-JIT integration, I suspect.
TimToady or something pre-jittable like, presumably something LLVMish
modulo grammar 23:03
jnthn Or that.
That said, $a + $b if both are native ints actually compiles down to the Parrot add_i_i_i op in the optimizer branch 23:06
(Compile time resolution of multi-dispatch, followed by inlining)
lue I think my own P6 compiler would be more fun, but the NQP porting seems, theoretically, to be slightly easier 23:10
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