»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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[Coke] 03:49
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moritz good morning 04:25
sorear good morning moritz 04:26
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Woodi wonders do quasi need unquote varibles... in 'macro abc { some_stuff }' is Perl code so will be ASTed anyway in macro time... 05:23
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dalek ecza: 9740424 | sorear++ | lib/ (2 files):
Major refactoring of PrepareEval, INIT time, and subordinate unit freeze/thaw
 08:12
ecza: 4001766 | sorear++ | lib/Serialize.cs:
Bump serialize version
 08:13
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masak morning, #perl6 08:54
sorear hello masak 08:55
masak Woodi: no, not really. the 'some_stuff' is just regular code. a macro that doesn't *explicitly* return an AST is considered erroneous. maybe we'll consider returning Nil or failing to be equivalent to returning an empty AST, though, I dunno. 08:56
sorear masak: erroneous, really? 08:57
seems easy enough to me to make that an error.
masak I'm speaking now as if text macros don't exist. but yeah, in my branch the compiler dies if it doesn't get an AST as a return value. 08:58
dalek ecza: 7451754 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
Finish implementation of -gen-app function
 09:10
sorear niecza: say acos i 09:14
p6eval niecza v10-220-g4001766: OUTPUT«1.5707963267949-0.881373587019543i␤»
masak hm, why isn't that a real value? 09:18
sorear because the cosine of any real value is real 09:20
so the arc-cosine of any unreal value must be unreal
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masak oh, sorry; thought it said 'acos 1' :) 09:21
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Woodi masak: i try to understand: macro abc( $a ) { somestuff + {{{ $a }}} } # somestuff is parsed to AST and $a is AST passed - they on 'same lvl' then some composition on AST lvl shoud work... 09:30
masak sorear: but your answer tells me you grok holomorphic functions ;) 09:31
sorear masak: s/holomorphic functions/modus tollens/
masak Woodi: no, a macro is supposed to return an AST (usually via a quasi), and {{{ $a }}} only works inside quasis. 09:32
sorear: oh, indeed.
TiMBuS why um. why a triple curly?
masak TiMBuS: know about Lisp and `(a ,b c) ? 09:33
TiMBuS why not some kind of normal qq construct
Woodi TiMBuS: S06 proposition but probably (hope) outdated now...
TiMBuS masak, yeah i know about passing around lisp in lisp. the one thing i made in parrot was a homoiconic language 09:34
masak TiMBuS: there's this idea that you triple the circumfix characters delimiting the quasi block.
TiMBuS: it's right there in S06.
Woodi masak: ok, i realy mean: macro abc( $a ) { quasi { somestuff + {{{ $a }}} } } 09:35
TiMBuS yeah but im just wondering on a more simple level here. why make a whole boatload of curlies when you can be less noisy
like, was it a decision done on purpose? similar to ?? !! 09:36
Woodi anyway, now i think about macros as some cut-modify on AST lvl
TiMBuS: yesterday TimToady proposed use some 'one char' signature for that 09:37
TiMBuS oh
TiMBuS looks at keyboard 09:38
masak TiMBuS: I've flip-flopped a bit on liking {{{$a}}}
TiMBuS: I think it's fine that it stands out a bit and doesn't look like "regular" syntax.
Woodi: then the answer to your question posed as a statement is "yes", there's composition of ASTs going on. 09:39
the {{{ }}} syntax is a way to say, "hold on, that was the literal code I wanted to make into an AST, but here I have an AST already-prepared that I want to insert". 09:40
TiMBuS well i agree its good it stands out, it also blends in 09:41
masak aye.
TiMBuS which i dont.. yeah idunno
we are meant to copy the good parts of lisp, not the bad
masak TiMBuS: TimToady felt the need to change it because it doesn't carry enough information about the grammatical category.
TiMBuS $a }}} } }
masak TiMBuS: or, put differently, it only works for terms. 09:42
TiMBuS: I wouldn't generally write all those braces on the same line; I'd use line breaks and indentation. then it looks quite palatable.
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masak TiMBuS: in some sense, you could make the same argument about five loops nested inside each other. 09:43
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sorear apparently, we have no spectests (that niecza passes?) for class A { class B is A { } } 09:46
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sorear whereas niecza itself uses that style heavily 09:47
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sorear and it's broken now 09:47
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masak nom: class A { class B is A {}; say B ~~ A }; say A::B ~~ A 09:48
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤Bool::True␤»
masak niecza: class A { class B is A {}; say B ~~ A }; say A::B ~~ A
p6eval niecza v10-221-g7451754: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object␤ at Niecza.P6how.CollectMMDs () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at Niecza.P6how.Revalidate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at…
sorear worked fine pre-serialize. 09:49
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dalek ecza: 000cc77 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
Checkpoint new bootstrap attempt
 09:53
ecza: 616e8ac | sorear++ | lib/ (2 files):
Fix inheritance of an outer class by an inner class
Woodi masak: ok, understud case. now: do macros-returning-strings allow quasi ? do m-r-s allow quasi/ast marked eg. :ast(Ruby) ? 09:56
masak Woodi: as far as I and my grant are concerned, macros aren't allowed to return strings. please ask someone else. :) 09:58
Woodi ok, didn't know.
what about 'submacros' ? 09:59
Woodi have lost idea what is macro scope now... 10:01
masak do you mean macros inside macros, or macros inside quasis? 10:03
they're both just scoped differently. 10:04
Woodi 1. just wonder what 'submacro' in S06 means; 2. wonder how to have AST to have it alredy prepared...
masak checks S06
Woodi: I have no idea what "submacro" means in that context. 10:06
it either means "a macro that is a sub" (but all of them are, in a sense) or "a macro that is somehow below or inside something else" (but what and why would that help?)
sorear niecza: $A::b; $A::b 10:07
p6eval niecza v10-221-g7451754: ( no output )
sorear niecza: $A::b; package A { our $b }
p6eval niecza v10-221-g7451754: ( no output )
masak as to how is AST formed: the parser reads the source code, and generates ASTs. so at the time of a macro invocation, the parser has just parsed the argument list into little snippets of AST, and it's very easy to pass those into the macro itself.
sorear niecza: $A::b; package A { our constant $b = 5} 10:08
p6eval niecza v10-221-g7451754: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $b is declared but not used at /tmp/SMMJwi1HMi line 1:␤------> $A::b; package A { our ⏏constant $b = 5}␤␤»
Woodi aha
sorear niecza: %A::b; %A::b 10:09
p6eval niecza v10-221-g7451754: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Two definitions found for symbol ::GLOBAL::A::%b␤␤ first at /tmp/MoaEmOBhix line 1␤ second at /tmp/MoaEmOBhix line 1 at /tmp/MoaEmOBhix line 1 (EOF):␤------> %A::b; %A::b⏏<EOL>␤␤␤Unhandled Exception: Ch…
masak Woodi: somewhat simplified: runtime thinks and deals in values, like 42 and "OH HAI". compiler thinks and deals in code represented as ASTs, like int:42 and infix:<+>:(int:2, int:2) and subcall:<say>:(string:"OH HAI") 10:14
(AST syntax is for educational purposes only and entirely made up) 10:15
dalek ecza: 4865e86 | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
Hack - allow merging empty containers
 10:16
Woodi masak: macros run both in compile time and run-time ? 10:28
masak yes, though I've only focused on compile-time so far. 10:30
at runtime, the macro is called as a regular sub, and since it then gets values and not ASTs, the values will have to be converted to ASTs. it's as yet unclear which entity does the conversion. 10:31
sorear Why are you calling macros at run-time at all? 10:36
masak this is Perl. we don't disallow things just because we don't see their use. :) 10:41
more to the point though, a macro still has that magical code generation ability at runtime. 10:42
so it's a bit like a more civilized &eval call.
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sorear masak: macros take AST arguments though. 10:46
niecza: /x/; say 'L'
p6eval niecza v10-224-g4865e86: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: System.Exception: Niecza.Variable not subtype of System.String[]:Void PushCapture(System.String[], Niecza.Variable)␤ at Niecza.CLRBackend.ClrOp.TypeCheck (System.Type sub, System.Type super, System.Object c) [0x00000] in <filename u…
masak sorear: yes, that's the problem. 10:49
sorear: there are a couple of solutions/workarounds to make it all work, neither of which I particularly like.
dalek ecza: bd53b44 | sorear++ | lib/ (2 files):
Fix miscompilation of string literal "L" after regex compiled in same file
sorear doubts it makes any sense to have a regression test for that 10:50
masak :)
how...? what...? :) 10:51
moritz why not? :-) 10:52
masak why did TimToady settle on the use of the term 'zyg' for 'child' again?
moritz becaues it's short
masak hmmm.
at the cost of making everybody ask.
tadzik hehe 10:54
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sorear -> sleep 10:58
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masak 'night, sorear. dream of literals "L" being compiled correctly after regexes. 11:05
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masak this one is close-ish to both station and Bokus: www.hitta.se/ViewDetailsPink.aspx?V...ar=Malm%f6 11:24
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jnthn masak: wrong window? :) 11:26
masak oh, yeah. :/ 11:28
(jnthn and I are privmsg'ing about a photographer) 11:29
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cognominal_ In french slang, zig zig is the action that can eventually end up in a zyg. That's also the title of a song full of puns and aliterations : www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVJIKwSjcUs 12:11
masak according to the YouTube comments, it's WWII slang introduced by German soldiers. 12:16
cognominal_ That may be right because the song is part a very provocative album about nazi decadence by Gainsbourg. 12:20
Anyway if there no provocation anywhere, that could not be Gainsbourg 12:22
Funny enough, in some songs, when the text is too explicit, he switch to English but somehow in American stores, he got away with the explicit lyrics label. Too bad because I suspect that was a badge of quality for kids. 12:26
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masak :) 12:32
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flussence niecza now passes >10k tests, fsvo "pass": github.com/flussence/specgraphs/ra...output.png 12:48
(and this graph's a huge mess with the serialize branch mixed in)
colomon yes, breaking 10k corresponds to my wife driving us to Ann Arbor Wednesday and me hacking on VLHF in the car. ;) 12:50
masak colomon++ 12:51
colomon masak++ for #phasering for me. 12:53
I'm pretty sure there's still a lot of LHF in there.
but it's a bit tricky to find them, because some tests don't work for incidental reasons 12:54
masak wow, imagine getting Pugs back in the race too... 12:55
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masak perl6: say "I like ", <Niecza Rakudo Pugs>.pick, " the best!" 13:00
p6eval niecza v10-225-gbd53b44: OUTPUT«I like Rakudo the best!␤»
..pugs b927740, rakudo 9c6aed: OUTPUT«I like Niecza the best!␤»
masak aww :)
mutual admiration. :)
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felher :D 13:26
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colomon rakudo: say (1..100).grep(10 < * < 20).gist 14:23
p6eval rakudo 9c6aed: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 9…
colomon b: say (1..100).grep(10 < * < 20).gist
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«Method 'gist' not found for invocant of class 'List'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/tNAzcGmS9y␤»
colomon b: say (1..100).grep(10 < * < 20).perl
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70…
colomon b: say (1..100).grep(* < 20).perl
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)␤»
colomon niecza: say (1..100).grep(10 < * < 20).perl 14:24
p6eval niecza v10-225-gbd53b44: OUTPUT«(11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19).list␤»
colomon niecza++
masak: ^^ known bug?
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masak colomon: no, looks new to me. 14:50
masak submits rakudobug
colomon++
colomon: by the way, why do you use .gist with &say? 14:53
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fsergot Hi! :-) 14:53
masak nom: say (1..100).grep(* < 20).perl
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19).list␤»
masak fsergot: hi!
fsergot masak, how are you? :-) 14:54
masak fsergot: I'm fine. who are you? :P
nom: say (1..100).grep({ 10 < $_ < 20 }).perl
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«(11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19).list␤» 14:55
masak innerestin'
jnthn masak: Probably something to do with auto-currying 14:56
masak you mean "auto-priming"? :) 14:57
masak doesn't know which one is correct, actually
jnthn no, then 14:58
grr
No, the * thing
masak yes, the * thing 14:59
but is it currying or priming?
jnthn clos-o-matic 15:00
Or closurematic :)
It may be priming in some cases, but not in ones like * * * 15:01
masak <== vertigo
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jnthn masak: Happens to some people, to the altitude one is at when doing higher order programming... 15:02
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jnthn *due to 15:03
masak :P
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masak looks forward to MJD's upcoming fictional "Acrophobiac Programming" 15:04
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Woodi my $c1 = "*2\r\n\$3\r\nGET\r\n"; my Str $c2 = "*2\r\n\$3\r\nGET\r\n"; # which one for performance ? 15:05
grondilu where is the log for this chan?
(if there is any) 15:06
jnthn Woodi: When you add type information, the compiler can make use of it. 15:07
Woodi: To generate better code.
Whether compilers actually will do that at the moment is another matter 15:08
Rakudo does to some degree. In some cases, it can do WAY better. In others, just a bit or not much at all.
Woodi asking becouse it's definition with initialization to Str. ok, adding type is good for me 15:09
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masak grondilu: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today 15:10
grondilu masak: ok, thks
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gfldex nom: my Str $s1 = "arther"; $s1 = 42; say $s1.WHAT; my $s2 = "dent"; $s2 = 42; say $s2.WHAT; 15:11
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$s1'; expected 'Str' but got 'Int'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/2RPjbDzR_G:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/2RPjbDzR_G:1␤»
gfldex Woodi: ^^
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gfldex Woodi: you can let the compiler remove some of the rope to hang yourself 15:12
masak I will not reassign. reassignment is the mind killer.
TimToady it'x zyg so it sorts last in a YAML file 15:13
masak ah. 15:16
so you needed a term for 'child' that sorted after all the other attributes? :)
Woodi gfldex: i was realy asking: do 'my $a = "string";' is good for compiler to guess correct type for optimization. But that question is extremally stupid in context of scripting language :) To first approximation... Compilator can parse full script and then see that it is always a string. But defining type probably better... 15:18
jnthn Woodi: I expect the optimizer may be able to catch some things like that but it's decidedly non-trivial. Essentially, you have to keep track of the assumptions you made and be ready to undo them if you "disprove" that the initially assigned type could hold. 15:19
sixgill.org/ti-draft.pdf is in the same problem space 15:20
TimToady late-bound rw parameters are a killer 15:21
jnthn TimToady: Right
TimToady: Well, method calls are.
TimToady wonders if there's ever any programming style that needs rw parameters to methods
jnthn TimToady: Method calls in general are an assumption blocker 15:22
TimToady that can't be done some other way in p6
jnthn TimToady: You don't know if the invocant will be modified even
TimToady well, we expect that
jnthn TimToady: no, I meant rw style 15:23
$a.foo # $a may not even contain the same object afterwards
TimToady that seems somewhat pernicious
jnthn (since method foo($x is rw:) { $x = 42 }
)
TimToady: The more immediate pain point is this 15:24
TimToady maybe we can track the names of all pernicious methods defined
jnthn We have to define infix:<+> as, say, Int:D, Int:D
TimToady: So knowing "$x is an Int, $y is na Int" isn't enough to inline $x + $y
TimToady: Well, but it's not as simple - the method may be introduced in an eval or something. 15:25
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jnthn Or the module is compiled, then some other class in a later module come along with one. 15:26
I suspect the best we can do in various cases we think will be expensive is emit a set of contitions, and if they hold up, enter a well optimized code path. Otherwise, fall back. 15:27
Though that's what the paper I linked a moment ago is really doing...though it does it dynamically at JIT level.
TimToady it's probably a bigger win when you can move the conditions outside a hot loop 15:31
jnthn yes, that's what I was thinking
Of course, there's a limit to what you can statically decide is hot also. 15:32
You end up guessing.
TimToady well, to the first approximation, smaller tends to be hotter, and that works in our favor
so the hot loops are likelier to be doable, if you just guess based on doability 15:33
jnthn Yes, it's probably just spotting clues. 15:34
"I'm a while loop with a small body. You may want to do me."
"I'm a loop nested inside another loop with a single statement body. You should really do me!"
etc 15:35
All fun stuff to work on :)
TimToady if there's a way to falsify asap, then you just do all loops, and give up on the longer ones as soon as they falsify
jnthn Well, it's not always just "falsify"; "can't be sure" can happen also. 15:36
I guess it all depends on how cheap it can be to give up. 15:37
Feels almost like some kinda of constraint-y thing.
TimToady sure, it's always the #1 constraint of optimization: Don't get caught! 15:38
jnthn ;)
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TimToady there's also pragmas and -O levels to decides some of these things 15:39
*de
Woodi 'do less' is nice too
jnthn Hmm. Seems I have a talk to do on optimizing Rakudo / Perl 6 next weekend :)
TimToady it helps to have a language that helps the user distinguish eager from lazy, so we don't have to guess much on that one 15:40
cognominal Rare
Acrophobiac
Programming,
Enhanced
:)
TimToady we call that canola these days
cognominal I wonder if anyone indulged in acrostic programming. 15:42
arnsholt Sounds like something for Perl poetry =) 15:44
TimToady $a = ...; $b = ...; $c = ...; ... # makes it easy to do x, even in English
masak for me having a "grey area" between distinctions like "clearly optimizable" and "clearly not optimizable" is what saves us from Death by Halting Problem. 15:45
TimToady I'm not so worried about Death by Halting; I'm much more concerned about Death by Not Halting. 15:46
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TimToady it's hard to figure out when to throw the Inadvertent Infinite Loop exception 15:47
"Admiral, our cruise missiles are all blowing up before reaching their destinations, and we don't know why!" 15:48
masak that's essentially what I mean.
it's only a problem as long as you don't allow "I don't know" as an answer. 15:49
TimToady yes, but it's so much fun to enforce more precision on you
masak :P
just be careful not to put me in an infinite loop... :P
TimToady "I don't know" can also be a problem. :)
masak of course it can.
TimToady Teens are great at "I don't know." 15:50
masak but it's sometimes a nice alternative to not coming back with an answer.
TimToady sure
but sometimes knowing whether you know is also hard 15:54
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TimToady on some level, merely having multiple threads, and the possibility to violate encapsulation of the run-time system, means you can't really know much of anything ever, so you kinda have to assume that won't happen 15:57
and, of course, a cosmic ray can do that to you even with the best written program 15:58
the universe is not always our friend :) 15:59
masak s/always // # ;)
TimToady it's friendly enough to allow us to exist 16:00
masak yeah. thanks.
TimToady about the best we can do is multi-level control feedback, aka defense in depth 16:01
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TimToady funny how different kinds of efficiency have differing increases in risk; there's probably something deep there that it's too early in the morning to think about 16:03
backlogging &
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masak perl6: say <back forward side>.pick ~ <logging porting chatting>.pick 16:14
p6eval rakudo 9c6aed: OUTPUT«sideporting␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«backlogging␤»
..niecza v10-225-gbd53b44: OUTPUT«forwardlogging␤»
masak somehow fitting.
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TimToady indeed 16:15
I'd've use , instead of ~, meself
*used 16:16
masak oh dang.
I usually tell people that myself... :)
jnthn grrr...this compact struct stuff gets hard 16:17
jnthn grabs notepad, pen, cup of tea and heads to the sofa for a while 16:18
masak ooh, tea! 16:19
TimToady ooh, of!
TimToady likes ofness
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masak well, 的 :P 16:20
(Mandarin pronunciation DE) 16:21
though actually, 的 means the opposite of "of", namely "'s"
TimToady of is pronounced de in French too :)
masak aye :) 16:22
TimToady "'s" in Japanese is pronounced 'no'
masak though those two words in French and Mandarin are probably no more related than ありがとう and "obrigado" 16:23
pmurias jnthn: do 'is rw' invocants even make much sense? 16:31
phenny pmurias: 21 Oct 03:19Z <sorear> tell pmurias Now that "embedding a P5 interpreter" has become a common way, I think embedding tests belong in roast, in S01
pmurias jnthn: it seems very hackish to be you first extract the object out of the container and then call a method on it and pass it the container as the invocant 16:33
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cognominal masak: will it be possible to create a lexical variable within a macro visible outside it? 16:39
masak cognominal: assuming AST macros, no, not that I can see. that's part of the hygiene. 16:41
arnsholt So to get a macro to pass values to its arguments code you'd have do something with pointy blocks, right? 16:43
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masak I don't understand the question. could you exemplify? 16:44
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jnthn pmurias: That view may be conflating method lookup and invocation a bit too much. 16:45
arnsholt masak: Well, the canonical example of an intended namespace pollution in a CL macro is anaphoric if 16:46
Which puts the value tested into a variable named it ($_, essentially)
To make a similar macro you'd do essentially what if does, no? 16:47
(Of course Perl 6 if already does the anaphora thing)
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masak arnsholt: if some-function() -> $it { ... } 16:49
arnsholt Yeah, essentially 16:50
No other way than "polluting-macro($foo,$bar) -> $it { ... }" (FSVO of "polluting" macro) 16:51
I have a macrophile friend, and the ability to do namespace pollution when you want to is something of a hobby horse for him is why I'm asking 16:52
cognominal masak, so I am out of luck, if, using macros, I want to write code equivalent to : my $startlabel := self.post_new('Label', :result($prefix ~ 'start'));
… pulling code from QAST/Compiler.NQP for example. 16:53
*sake of example 16:54
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TimToady maybe a macro should be allowed to return a text followed by an AST, and the text can do any needed declarations; or maybe we strengthen the COMPILING interface to allow declarational hoisting somehow 16:56
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TimToady or maybe we allow quasi-unquotes in textual macros :) 16:58
masak :) 16:59
TimToady i.e. give the textual macro's reparse some recourse to the macro's lexical scope
well, maybe declarations in the quasi should simply have a way to leak out 17:00
someway of saying "this quasi is/isn't a separate lexical scope 17:01
that seems simplest 17:02
well, from the user's point of view :)
you'd have to treasure up declarations and install them
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TimToady back to that unification thang... 17:03
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poincare101 perl6: say 3 17:05
p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 9c6aed, niecza v10-225-gbd53b44: OUTPUT«3␤»
poincare101 perl6: say 3;
p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 9c6aed, niecza v10-225-gbd53b44: OUTPUT«3␤»
TimToady you can say that again
poincare101 perl6: $i = 0; $i++; say $i; 17:06
p6eval niecza v10-225-gbd53b44: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Variable $i is not predeclared at /tmp/GNff9TDaAx line 1:␤------> <BOL>⏏$i = 0; $i++; say $i;␤␤Variable $i is not predeclared at /tmp/GNff9TDaAx line 1:␤------> $i = 0; ⏏$i++; say $i;␤␤…
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected " ="␤ expecting "::"␤ Variable "$i" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤ at /tmp/gnZ88QgHd5 line 1, column 3␤»
..rakudo 9c6aed: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$i' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/rpheSQ_Vgk:1)␤»
poincare101 what in the world just happened?
jnthn As all three implementations told you, you need to declare $i :) 17:07
perl6: my $i = 0; $i++; say $i;
p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 9c6aed, niecza v10-225-gbd53b44: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady poincare101: unlike Perl 5, Perl 6 has 'use strict' on by default, so you have to declare your vars 17:13
but since 'my' lets you do that inline with first use, it's not a huge bother
'my' is short for a reason :)
requiring declarations also makes the semantics much more deterministic than any of p5, python, or ruby 17:14
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masak I get so surprised every time I hear people say that languages that require 'my' or equivalent makes the language unusable for them. (and people seem to say that far more often than I'd expect, too) 17:18
yes, it's a bit of extra work, but it also saves loads of debugging time. 17:19
in a way, it's similar to the type information that you sometimes have to put into Haskell. yes, it's slightly more work, but it pays off almost immediately because it helps you write better code. 17:20
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masak poincare101: if you want less error output next time, a tip is to target only one implementation, such as 'nom:'. that's less to write, too ;) 17:27
dalek p: d116187 | jnthn++ | src/HLL/SerializationContextBuilder.pm:
Give SymbolTable::Event a more optimal constructor.
 17:29
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masak TimToady: why are the outer parens needed in the divisor-less example at rosettacode.org/wiki/FizzBuzz#Perl_6 ? 17:37
nom: .say for (('' xx 2, 'Fizz') xx * Z~ ('' xx 4, 'Buzz') xx *) Z|| 1 .. 100 17:38
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«1␤2␤Fizz␤4␤Buzz␤Fizz␤7␤8␤Fizz␤Buzz␤11␤Fizz␤13␤14␤FizzBuzz␤16␤17␤Fizz␤19␤Buzz␤Fizz␤22␤23␤Fizz␤Buzz␤26␤Fizz␤28␤29␤FizzBuzz␤31␤32␤Fizz␤34␤Buzz␤Fizz␤37␤38␤Fizz␤Buzz␤41␤Fizz␤43␤44␤FizzBuzz␤46␤47␤Fizz␤49␤Buzz␤Fizz␤52␤53␤Fizz␤Buzz␤56␤Fizz␤58␤59␤FizzBuzz␤61␤62␤Fizz␤64␤Buzz␤Fi…
masak nom: .say for ('' xx 2, 'Fizz') xx * Z~ ('' xx 4, 'Buzz') xx * Z|| 1 .. 100
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«1␤2␤Fizz␤4␤Buzz␤Fizz␤7␤8␤Fizz␤Buzz␤11␤Fizz␤13␤14␤Fizz␤16␤17␤Fizz␤19␤Buzz␤Fizz␤22␤23␤Fizz␤Buzz␤26␤Fizz␤28␤29␤Fizz␤31␤32␤Fizz␤34␤Buzz␤Fizz␤37␤38␤Fizz␤Buzz␤41␤Fizz␤43␤44␤Fizz␤46␤47␤Fizz␤49␤Buzz␤Fizz␤52␤53␤Fizz␤Buzz␤56␤Fizz␤58␤59␤Fizz␤61␤62␤Fizz␤64␤Buzz␤Fizz␤67␤68␤Fizz␤Bu􏿽xE2􏿽x80
masak it can't be a matter of infix:<xx> versus infix:<Z||>, because the former is definitely tighter. 17:39
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masak infix:<~> and infix:<||> are on the same level of precedence, so even if the rule about a "sub-level" of Z precedences (currently conjectural in the spec), they would tie, precedence-wise. 17:41
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masak and their associativity is L, which means (as far as I can see) that those outer parns should be implied... 17:42
what am I missing?
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arnsholt Isn't $a Z $b Z $c different from ($a Z $b) Z $c? 17:48
masak yes, good point. 17:49
I wonder how that affects $a Z~ $b Z|| $c, though.
nom: .say for (1, 4, 7) Z~ (2, 5, 8) Z|| (3, 6, 9) 17:50
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«1␤4␤7␤»
masak nom: .say for ((1, 4, 7) Z~ (2, 5, 8) Z|| (3, 6, 9))
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«1␤4␤7␤»
masak nom: .say for ((1, 4, 7) Z~ (2, 5, 8)) Z|| (3, 6, 9) 17:51
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«12␤45␤78␤»
masak nom: .say for (1, 4, 7) Z~ ((2, 5, 8) Z|| (3, 6, 9))
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«12␤45␤78␤»
masak so $a Z~ $b Z|| $c parses *neither* like ($a Z~ $b) Z|| $b *nor* like $a Z~ ($b Z|| $c) 17:52
Woodi like what 'my' do, just would like more 'my' as optional :)
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masak niecza: .say for (1, 4, 7) Z~ (2, 5, 8) Z|| (3, 6, 9) 17:52
p6eval niecza v10-225-gbd53b44: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤This macro cannot be used as a function at /tmp/KWQKretyop line 1:␤------> .say for (1, 4, 7) Z~ (2, 5, 8) Z||⏏ (3, 6, 9)␤␤"Z~" and "Z||" are non-associative and require parens at /tmp/KWQKretyop line 1:␤…
masak ah, there you go. Niecza likely has it right. 17:53
Woodi: 'my' is opt-out, but the 'no strict' hasn't been implemented by any of the Big Three yet.
Woodi masak: why you mention 'strict' ? 17:54
masak Woodi: because you mentioned you would like 'my' to be optional. 17:56
TimToady S03:1699 says non-identical list infixes are considered non-associative rather than list associative
masak yes, I finally figured it out thanks to Niecza. 17:57
Woodi masak: yea, string 'my' to be optional but 'my' behaviour to be default, with and without 'my'... 17:58
masak TimToady: but the conjecture at S03:4746 could change that. 17:59
(and I'm for implementing that conjecture.)
Woodi: I don't think you actually mean that. it would mean that { $a = 42; { $a = 5 } } would refer to two different containers. 18:00
so the inner assignment would declare a new variable rather than overwrite the outer one.
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Woodi masak: i like like C do this - { $a = 42; { $a = 5 } is same container 18:01
arnsholt Woodi: But without explicit declarations it's impossible to tell when you want them to be the same and when you want them to be different 18:03
Woodi arnsholt: then in inner {} my can be used :)
Woodi SHOOT to enything global (just in case) 18:04
masak Woodi: but C requires you to explicitly declare variables. 18:05
Woodi: it still sounds to me that it's 'no strict' you want. 18:06
Woodi masak: becouse of type
masak: no way, 'strict' behaviour by default + more sugar :)
masak Woodi: that's a strange arguemnt, because there are no variables in C without a type.
moritz there's no reason C couldn't infer types from initializations, for example 18:07
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masak Woodi: how can you have both 'strict' behaviour and be able to skip saying 'my'? it doesn't make sense. 18:07
moritz i = 3; # guess what type i could have
arnsholt moritz: void* obviously ;p 18:08
masak Go does something like that with its := initialization, doesn't it?
Woodi masak: by default.
masak Woodi: you're not making enough sense for me to understand your point.
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Woodi masak: i will find some Perl 6 code and erase my and post gist :) 18:09
TimToady we are not going to turn Perl 6 into Ruby 18:10
masak Woodi: well, I got the "erase 'my'" part. what I didn't get is how you think that that is somehow still strict.
Woodi: "strict" here *means* "the 'my' declataions aren't optional" 18:11
Woodi 'strict' mean "varibles are local" ?
masak no.
TimToady strict means not *guessing* where the variables are
moritz "strict" means "variables need to be declared"
and in p5, strict also means 'no barewords as string literals' and 'no soft references'
TimToady this is one of the bits of Ruby we decided most definitely *not* to borrow 18:12
masak Woodi: from perldoc strict: This generates a compile-time error if you access a variable that wasn't declared via "our" or "use vars", localized via "my()", or wasn't fully qualified.
TimToady I consider it a misfeature of Ruby
masak me too.
moritz "localized via "my()"" sounds... misleading
TimToady it's one of those little things that is cute when it's small, but bites you when it gets bigger 18:13
moritz after all my() doesn't act on an existing variable, but creates a new one
TimToady well, "local" is misnamed in Perl 5 :)
Woodi masak: in Perl 5 'my' was workaround for Perl 4. just wanted to drop and have localized vars by default. but iffinding vars is needed for something more then i will stop 18:14
and TimToady++ all the time :) 18:15
masak Woodi: interesting historical viewpoint. also, according to me, vastly underestimating lexicals. Ö=
:)
they are not just a "workaround" for Perl 4.
they are "doing it right this time".
Woodi masak: pls be specific, i know Perl 5 mantras :) 18:16
Perl 6 :) Perl 5 Maybe too...
masak basically, dynamicals were the predominant model in Perls 1..4. they're great, but lexicals scale better and are better buddies with compilers. 18:17
when I say "dynamical", I mean the behaviour of a variable to follow the runtime flow rather than the static code structure.
and when I say "lexical", I mean "my" variables.
Perl 5 adopted lexical variables with the "my" keyword, but couldn't drop dynamic variables because of backwards compatibility. 18:18
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Woodi know that so far 18:19
sorear good * #perl6
masak eval sub foo { $x = 42 }; sub bar { $x = 5; foo; print $x }; bar
buubot_backup masak: 421
masak eval sub foo { $x = 42 }; sub bar { $x = 5; foo; print $x; return }; bar
buubot_backup masak: 42
masak Woodi: that's typical dynamicals behaviour. 18:20
eval sub foo { my $x = 42 }; sub bar { my $x = 5; foo; print $x; return }; bar
buubot_backup masak: 5
masak that's typical lexicals behaviour.
lexicals are *not* a "workaround". :)
though I have the feeling that dynamicals are a bit less-is-more easier to implement... 18:21
Woodi introduce 'm' was workaround for globals by default
masak Woodi: I feel we're not quite getting through to each other.
Woodi maybe, maybe not 18:22
huf Woodi: 'my' doesnt just mean it's a lexical variable
it also declares the variable
otherwise how could you tell what $x = 1; means? 18:23
is it a new $x? is it the old one?
Woodi huf: i mean: definition on first occurence (like in all good scripting langauges) 18:24
masak Woodi: yes, the dynamical variables were (package-)global. and they are still the default in Perl 5.
Woodi but if have downsides then they not often commented
masak: forget global, pls !
masak Woodi: the big downside is that you can't tell a declaration of a new variable from a typo. 18:25
the compiler doesn't help you at all there.
if you don't think that's a problem, try writing a large program with a typo in it.
huf i also find the code easier to read if there is a clear marker for declarations 18:26
sorear masak: "Niecza has it right"... weren't you arguing just yesterday that all macros should be callable as functions? :)
Woodi agree that 'my' introduce some ordung...
TimToady calling macros as function is specced somewhere
sorear phenny: "ordung"?
phenny sorear: "ordung" (de to en, translate.google.com)
Woodi but that 'my' features isn't commented a lot - do not saw before. 18:27
moritz phenny: "ordnung"?
phenny moritz: The de to en translation failed, sorry!
moritz heh, it identified it as German, but couldn't translate? :-) 18:28
Woodi moritz: yes, this is De word, no idea how to spell/write :)
i mean 'order' :) 18:29
moritz that's what 'Ordnung' means, yes :-)
sorear phenny: "Ordnung"? 18:30
phenny sorear: "Order" (de to en, translate.google.com)
sorear heh.
TimToady Woodi: it's commented on all the time, you just don't recognize it. But you continually here "use strict", and that's what it means, mainly, is "use my"
Woodi so compilers without 'my' are possible to exist. but if 'my' helps more it's ok for me
TimToady *hear
sorear I guess phenny thinks Germans will never be so lazy as to not uppercase a noun?
moritz well, "google translate really" 18:31
Woodi TimToady: i assumed ('strict5' === 'strict6') == True
moritz TimToady: how should 'no strict' scope undeclared variables? 18:32
TimToady Woodi: it is not at all clear what you mean by that
moritz TimToady: to the outermost mutable scope? or package scope?
Woodi i assumed 'strict in p5' == 'strict in p6' 18:33
TimToady I don't see much reason not to do it the way Perl 5 does it, offhand
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TimToady Woodi: that's the part that was clear, not the part that was unclear 18:34
in which sense did you mean it?
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masak Woodi wants 'my' declarations to be optional by default. 18:36
Woodi TimToady: not see any meta-sense here. just thinked 'my' is for locality
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masak Woodi: 'my' *is* for "locality" (but it's called "lexicality") 18:36
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Woodi masak: that i know. new part for me is it is for other things too 18:37
TimToady there are three different sub-meanings of strict in P5, plus whether to apply it by default
plus the semantics of 'no strict vars', which is what I was answering moritz++ about 18:38
anyway, P5 differs from P6 in all four of those ways
moritz though of course 5.14 (or was it 5.12?) enables 'strict' if you request that version 18:39
TimToady so I have no idea which one you thought was ==
Woodi TimToady: ony 'my' part
only*
TimToady that's still two different ways, 'use strict vars' or 'on by default' 18:40
Woodi which part is about locality/lexicals ? 18:42
TimToady the 'vars' part
dalek ecza: b117e92 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
Horrible little hack to redirect CompilerBlob so serialize can build NieczaBackendDotnet
Woodi so even in Perl5 it means that declaration need to be in place ? thinked it only to differentiate from global vars... 18:43
sorear wooh, niecza just built itself again 18:44
Woodi it have double meaning...
and if this discussion have no sense can we finish now ?
sorear (that said, the newly built one isn't quite working)
TimToady sure :)
moritz submits p5 doc patch to unconfuse strict.pm
lots of people in perl community (in particular on perlmonks) complain that interaction with p5p is hard. I just have the feeling that *discussing* things with p5p is hard, because they don't offer a coherent opinion 18:46
getting simple patches accepted is a lot easier, IME
sorear #p5p is pretty friendly 18:48
Woodi TimToady: can you tell what you mean about problems in Ruby lastly ? 18:49
masak <TimToady> it's one of those little things that is cute when it's small, but bites you when it gets bigger 18:51
Woodi: that
Woodi: it's what I said about typos.
Woodi still do not understand. but ok. tell him go coffe (ASAP or SAP) :) 18:54
arnsholt Woodi: With implicit declarations you won't catch the typo of writing $vairable when you actually meant $variable 18:55
masak Woodi: you'll understand after you've written that 1000-line program with a typo in it and 'strict vars' turned off :)
colomon masak: why do I use .gist with say? because I have no idea what does what now.... 18:56
moritz say uses .gist, print uses .Stringy (which re-dispatches to .Str) 18:57
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Woodi understud case. but it is not so big feature 18:58
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masak Woodi: the fact that you say that tells me that you haven't felt the pain of the abscence of the "not so big feature". 19:05
yet.
dalek ecza: 5792d5b | sorear++ | lib/ (2 files):
Avoid O(n) GetField and GetMethod in thaw procedure
 19:06
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Woodi masak: so far I used Perl 5 to detect this error :) 19:07
sorear cuts "mono-sgen run/Niecza.exe --help" from 13.5s to 2s...
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Woodi 'used only once, can be....' 19:07
moritz that doesn't catch accidental variable reuse in an inner scope 19:10
cognominal coffeescript felt in that ruby trap and I got burned quite a few times. 19:16
Woodi cognominal: 'trap' means no vars predeclaration ? 19:17
cognominal yup 19:18
at least, they are not global by accident 19:21
Woodi k. but so far 'declaration-on-sight was standard for scriptic languages :)
pmurias jnthn: "that view" - you mean mine or the one which allows 'is rw' invocants
jnthn: "is rw" invocants imply that the method is looked up on the object and invoked on the container 19:22
jnthn pmurias: yours
cognominal Woodi, that does not make this behavior right.
pmurias jnthn: how so? 19:23
jnthn I don't get "invoked on" - the on-ness is all in the lookup really.
Beyond that point, it's just the same as a sub call.
pmurias in the implementation yes 19:24
Woodi cognominal: agree, now :)
pmurias the method just takes the capture, i can imagine the user putting some unrelated object in the invocant 19:25
jnthn They may, sure 19:26
The binder will catch them though since the invocant has a type constraint on it.
(that is, will catch them passing anything they're not allowed to)
cognominal Woodi, that did not matter much in old scripting languages. But in coffeescript, this is particularly bad because it is a functional language so scoping is a crucial concept.
sorear pmurias: I want you to think about @foo[0][0] = 12; and @foo[0]."postcircumfix:<[ ]>"(0) = 12 19:27
masak cognominal: that's a very good point. 'my' makes scoping more *exact*, which is important in languages which care about lexical scopes.
Woodi: think about 'my $var; { $var = 42 }; say $var' and what would happen if the declaration was taken away but "declare-on-sight" was in effect. 19:28
arnsholt masak: That's one of my main philosophical complaints with Python and Ruby. Since you don't declare variables, all your functions have only a single, top-level scope
Probably makes implementations a bit simpler though =) 19:29
masak arnsholt: JavaScript is a "fun" case of that. they have you declare variables, but all your functions *still* have only a signle, top-level scope :(
sorear Javascript is the same way really even though it does have declarations
Woodi realy lost now... do C is some niche language ?
masak sorear is stealing my thoughts but he expresses them shorter.
:)
sorear it's useful sometimes but I spent about two days figuring it out 19:30
arnsholt Ah yes, JavaScript. Always a good example, both for cool features and horrible misfeatures
masak Woodi: C has declarations. we told you this an hour ago.
Woodi: C not only has declarations, it allows variables to be declared in nested scopes, not just in the top-level function scope.
cognominal speaking about javascript/coffeescript, I have not thought yet if executing a function in a particular context is meaningful in Perl6
masak at least, um, ANSI C or something. not K&R C. 19:31
cognominal: are you referring to nested subs? they're wonderful.
Woodi masak: I point C as nice guesing what { var_here } mean
masak Woodi: but it doesn't guess. you have to declare variables in C.
sorear as opposed to FORTRAN, which *does* tuess 19:32
masak oh man, FORTRAN is declare-on-sight? :/
sorear FORTRAN even has this lovely feature, almost feels like a precursor of sigils, where variables starting with <[ I .. N ]> are integers and the rest are reals
Woodi declaration-on-sight is declaration place and inside {} use C guesing rule.. 19:33
masak maŭbe I shouldn't be surprised; BASIC is, too.
cognominal masak: I am talking about the apply function, justin.harmonize.fm/index.php/2009/...ipts-this/
moritz sorear: ... unless declared otherwise
sorear masak: I think they removed that feature in one of the more recent revisions
masak Woodi: but there *is* no "C guessing rule"...
pmurias niecza: my @a;my $a = @foo[0];$a[0] = 12;say @a.perl;
masak Woodi: you're misinformed on that one.
p6eval niecza v10-225-gbd53b44: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Variable @foo is not predeclared at /tmp/sx0owaMyWw line 1:␤------> my @a;my $a = ⏏@foo[0];$a[0] = 12;say @a.perl;␤␤␤Unhandled Exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line …
Woodi no
pmurias niecza: my @foo;my $a = @foo[0];$a[0] = 12;say @foo.perl;
p6eval niecza v10-225-gbd53b44: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidOperationException: out of sync␤ at System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2+Enumerator[System.Object,System.Reflection.FieldInfo].VerifyState () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at System.Collections.Generic.Dictio…
Woodi tee 19:34
cognominal masak: there are many blog entry about the meaning and use of this in javascript, this one is not the best but I can't find the one I search for.
pmurias sorear: that exception seems to be strange
masak Woodi: you're misinformed on that one, and you're stubborn enough to protest when told the truth.
cognominal masak: howtonode.org/what-is-this
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masak cognominal: I have a vague knowledge about 'this' in JavaScript. I expect to learn it for real soonish, as I delve deeper into JS. 19:35
19:35 fridim_ left
pmurias sorear: my understanding of @foo[0][0] = 13 is that the container returned by @foo[0] handles the [0] method call 19:35
masak Woodi: gist.github.com/1324972 19:37
cognominal masak: coffeekup use very much apply and call. I have yet to reading it carefully. But it is coffeescript at its best.
masak cognominal: ok :)
sorear pmurias: yes, but the container returned by @foo[0] is _empty_ 19:39
Woodi masak: you intentionaly misunderstand me ?
i say: C-like guesing not C like declarations 19:40
masak Woodi: no, I'm sincerely trying to communicate with you.
sorear pmurias: this only works (try a working compiler, not niecza) because of rw invocants
masak Woodi: what do you mean by "C-like guessing"? there is none that I know of.
Woodi and discusion is of-Perl6-topic now
masak Woodi: we are having communication problems. please bear with me. 19:41
and I'll do my best to understand your points.
Woodi buubot_backup: my $a="rule"; { print $a };
buubot_backup Woodi: Couldn't match input.
moritz saying "what I said was bullshit" clears up much more than saying "the discussion is now off-topic, stop it"
Woodi something like this
pmurias rakudo: my @foo;my $a = @foo[0];$a[0] = 12;say @foo.perl;
p6eval rakudo 9c6aed: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/wVHVFEveaE:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/wVHVFEveaE:1␤»
masak Woodi: that's not "C-like guessing", that's the rules for lexical lookup! 19:42
Woodi you should guess it dear Masak
pmurias rakudo: my @foo;@foo[0][0] = 12;say @foo.perl;
p6eval rakudo 9c6aed: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/SxnU2ubpyd:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/SxnU2ubpyd:1␤»
masak Woodi: I'm trying my best to guess what you mean. it's hard.
sorear b: my @foo;@foo[0][0] = 12;say @foo.perl;
jnthn That's Rakudo not doing auto-viv...
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«[[12]]␤»
jnthn should probably task steal that one from pmichaud++ 19:43
masak Woodi: nevertheless, thanks for your patience in explaining what you mean.
pmurias sorear: but it's the empty container doing the magic not the value inside it otherwise my $foo = @foo[0];$foo[0] = 12; would also autovivify 19:44
masak Woodi: part of the problem in understanding what you mean is that your terminology is "non-standard" (by which I mean "arbitrary and illogical")
Woodi i do my best :) 19:45
masak Woodi: "you should guess, dear masak" after I finally understand you might be meant as a joke, but it comes off as being slightly obnoxious.
Woodi: nevertheless, I now understand that by "C-like guessing" you meant "lexical lookup". please use that term from now on. :) 19:46
Woodi masak: i adopting to Perl6 and not so far ago I was close to formulate YX problem :) 19:47
masak of course. we're all on a learning curve here. that's fine.
sorear pmurias: my $foo; $foo[0] = 12 does autovivify
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Woodi now knows: a) Haskell; b) lexical lookup; :) 19:51
dalek ecza: b12f0e7 | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
Fix iterator usage in previous commit
19:52 GlitchMr42 joined
masak Woodi: interesting tidbit: Perl 6 is *full* of lexical scoping. the concept is used to its limit. 19:52
dalek ecza: ea5d9a0 | sorear++ | src/STD.pm6:
Track s/Cursor.new/Cursor.cursor_start/
 19:53
masak Woodi: I periodically have an insight along the lines of "oh wow, this uses lexical scoping too? cool!"
it's just such a winning concept.
that's why I protested earlier when you characterized it as a "workaround" :)
moritz nom: class A { eval 'has $.x' }; say A.new(x => 3).x 19:54
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤A cannot have attributes at line 1, near ""␤»
moritz nom: class A { BEGIN eval 'has $.x' }; say A.new(x => 3).x
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤A cannot have attributes at line 1, near ""␤»
19:54 GlitchMr left
moritz why not? 19:54
class A { do { has $.x } }; say A.new(x => 3).x 19:55
nom: class A { do { has $.x } }; say A.new(x => 3).x
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«3␤»
jnthn moritz: Probably that eval doesn't know it's in a class definition or some such
moritz so, inner scopes do not prevent attributes from working, but eval do?
jnthn moritz: e.g. it's treated like a little bit of mainline 19:56
moritz: I guess you can argue that the BEGIN case there should work
moritz jnthn: but the error message knows that it's in A
masak submits rakudobug
jnthn moritz: no, the error message is busted
masak: no, wait
masak waits :)
jnthn What are you actually going to submit?
The first case should certainly not work
masak agreed.
moritz aye
jnthn The second one...maybe.
masak agreed.
jnthn So the question is... 19:57
masak it certainly shouldn't give that error message if it doesn't work.
jnthn In eval, what do we treat as the current package?
masak: The "A" in the error messsage is not referring to the clas A
masak the current package of the caller?
jnthn Call it B in the code to see :)
Woodi masak: ppls have two half-spheres in head. and probably connections betwin dhat halves are responsible for talking. so: few ppls are much worse with putting concepts into spoken words what do not say how good they grok concepts...
masak jnthn: aha, it's an article ;)
jnthn nom: class B { BEGIN eval 'has $.x' } 19:58
moritz nom: class B { BEGIN eval 'has $.x' }; say B.new(x => 3).x
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤A cannot have attributes at line 1, near ""␤»
jnthn Right
See the double space? :)
It doesn't know what sort of thing it is in :)
Woodi so, do not wory, i know what that lookup is :)
jnthn nom: has $.x
p6eval nom 9c6aed: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤A cannot have attributes at line 1, near ""␤»
jnthn Right. :)
So there's two things here
sorear wonders hypothetically if conducting the conversation in some other language would help.
jnthn First, reporting of declaring attributes in the mainline is giving a crappy error 19:59
masak Woodi: absolutely -- verbalizing != conceptualizing.
jnthn Second, eval is doing the wrong kind of thing about current package.
masak jnthn: so... TWO rakudobugs? :D
moritz masak: I'm fixing the error message right now
jnthn masak: Right. They're separate issues :)
Well, apart from.. ) 20:00
masak submits rakudobug
jnthn What moritz said :)
But tickets are easy to close too :)
masak yeah :)
and good bookkeeping
jnthn Gotta get you to your 2000 :P
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moritz masak: if you open a ticket for the error message, that's just maintenance overhead 20:01
masak moritz: ah, you don't think we need a spectest for it?
moritz masak: nope, because the error message isn't specced (yet) 20:02
masak then I'll just submit the eval-current-package one.
good point.
moritz no objections to the BEGIN eval ticket
jnthn Yeah, we should probably make that one work.
I'm in the middle of re-doing the repr API at the moment though, so won't get to that for a day or two. 20:03
moritz what should the error message read? "The mainline cannot have attributes"? 20:04
masak Woodi: I'm not underestimating your intelligence, or your familiarity with concepts. but if you say "lexical lookup" rather than "C-like guessing", it's easier for *me* talking with you.
a common terminology helps. 20:05
jnthn moritz: Something like that would work 20:06
moritz tests
cognominal I have done a lot of rakudo code reading this last few days. I am impressed by the progress made. jnthn++ pmichaud++ among others. 20:07
masak moritz: "Can't declare an attribute outside of class or role definiton"
dalek ecza: 3909462 | sorear++ | lib/CodeGen.cs:
Reimplement generation of goto target handlers
moritz masak: what about grammars?
masak moritz: I wouldn't mind if they're not mentioned in the error message.
cognominal it is nice to see that much more implementation code is written in Perl 6
masak feels more like a kind of "foolish completeness"
moritz I thought "outside of a package", but not all packages support attributes either
masak it's more like a kind of "OO package". 20:08
jnthn "You can't declare an attribute here" :)
"You can't declare an attribute here; maybe you'd like a class or a role?" :)
sorear Whitespace is required betwee alphanumeric tokens: sub none (*@p) { no⏏ne @p } <--- my least favorite kind of nieczabug to debug.
masak jnthn: +1 20:09
moritz likes jnthn++'s last proposal
masak it's very friendly.
jnthn occasionally is :)
cognominal not everyone can be a git, or design it. 20:11
moritz cognominal++
dalek kudo/nom: 40f181b | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
fix "cannot have attributes" error message for the mainline. jnthn++
 20:12
p: b498832 | moritz++ | tools/build/PARROT_REVISION:
bump PARROT_REVISION to after the green_threads merge to get some more testing
 20:17
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dalek ecza: 14a888b | sorear++ | src/niecza:
Fix compilation of endsym annotations
 20:35
sorear \o/ niecza/serialize-compiled-niecza/serialize can run say "Hello, world"
masak \o/ 20:37
sorear now spectesting
20:41 wooden joined 20:49 pothos left
sorear hrm, new-niecza can't seem to handle #`<< > >> 20:50
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dalek ast: e8eb581 | Coke++ | / (9 files):
niecza fudging
 20:52
20:53 y3llow left, y3llow_ is now known as y3llow
sorear [Coke]: are you fudging previously working tests? I'm starting to fear I'm missing regressions because of this project 20:54
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sorear niecza: say "<" x 2e0 21:06
p6eval niecza v10-230-g3909462: OUTPUT«<␤»
masak nom: say "<" x 2e0
p6eval nom 40f181: OUTPUT«<<␤»
sorear pretty obviously broken
niecza: say 1e0 >= 1 21:07
p6eval niecza v10-230-g3909462: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
sorear niecza: my $x = 2e0; $x--; say $x; say $x.WHAT; say $x >= 1
p6eval niecza v10-230-g3909462: OUTPUT«NaN␤Num()␤Bool::False␤»
sorear WHAT.
niecza: say 0e0.succ 21:09
p6eval niecza v10-230-g3909462: OUTPUT«1␤»
sorear niecza: say 0e0.pred
p6eval niecza v10-230-g3909462: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
masak negative numbers: they are a sham. 21:10
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dalek ecza: 3a82e24 | sorear++ | lib/Serialize.cs:
Fix deserialization of 64-bit values between -2**62-1 and -2**63
 21:33
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masak 'night, #perl6 21:43
lue hello world! o/ 21:44
21:44 xinming left
jnthn hellue 21:44
lue goodnight, masak
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sorear what? 22:18
"Result: PASS"
\o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
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sorear TODO: automate 22:19
diakopter sorear: impressive! 22:20
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TimToady it's not "Cannot declare an attribute here"; it's "Cannot declare an attribute now" :) 22:24
jnthn I could declare it now if I were somewhere else now :P 22:29
TimToady well, "Too late to declare attribute" would be much more communicative 22:31
"Too late to declare attribute without augment" anyway
jnthn TimToady: ah, you mean the eval case? 22:32
TimToady yes
jnthn Yeah, we can do better there
TimToady: I thought you meant the mainline case.
TimToady sorry
jnthn np
TimToady brane not fiering on all cilyndrs toady 22:33
interestingly, \$x is a decl isn't even specced anywhere 22:34
22:34 pmurias left
TimToady I'm also thinkin' that |$x wants to lose its sigil 22:34
jnthn Hm
jnthn ponders that |@x is actually meaningful-ish...
But it may well not do the right thing. 22:35
And could be hard to make it do so.
TimToady @(|x) is probably what you really want there anyway
jnthn Yes.
wfm if we do that.
sorear jnthn: how are we feeling today about adding attributes to P6opaque post-compose? 22:36
TimToady your current |$x works snapshotty? spec currently says the rest of the sig can only be parsed by a subsig, and I'm of the impression that's not how it is currently
sorear jnthn: do you mean |@x in a signature?
jnthn sorear: yes
22:36 whiteknight left
jnthn sorear: (adding attributes post-compose) -1 for P6opaque. Use a different repr. 22:36
sorear jnthn: is this still the my \x = term; discussion? 22:37
TimToady yes
sorear diakopter: I was worrying if I'd be this far by Monday
TimToady is considering that | params want the same treatment
since they're nearly as raw as parcels
sorear diakopter: it's always kind of shocking when you plan for a third 80% and it doesn't materialize
TimToady and should not commit to itemization
jnthn sorear: Sometimes things work out well :) 22:38
TimToady it means you did one or two things right for a change :)
jnthn TimToady: Current |$x works snapshotty, yes
diakopter or more tests are needed ;) 22:39
TimToady but then how do you continue
jnthn TimToady: The binder would be totally happy about it showing up at any point.
TimToady: The limitation in nom is actually because I copied STD's notion that | is a variadic.
TimToady: That is, it's purely a compiler restriction. The binder will happily see capture params at any point and cope.
TimToady (|$x $y, $z) or (|$x, $y, $z) or (|$x ($y, $z)) <- current spec
jnthn OK, the first is...weird to me :) 22:40
TimToady well, it's just another constraint in that case
jnthn wait, does that even parse?
TimToady probably not
jnthn std: sub foo(|$x $y, $z) { }
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse signature at /tmp/u0OpPETMkz line 1:␤------> sub foo⏏(|$x $y, $z) { }␤Couldn't find final ')'; gave up at /tmp/u0OpPETMkz line 1:␤------> sub foo(|$x ⏏$y, $z) { }␤ expecting any o…
jnthn Was gonna say
I followed STD pretty closely in terms of what we parse in the signatures.
TimToady but in the middle one, is $y still the first ar in $x?
*arg 22:41
jnthn TimToady: Yes
(more)
TimToady: The Rakudo binder interpretation of |$c is that it's transparent to the current binder state
TimToady it's probably saner that way, I guess, given that rvalue | returns to the same level too
jnthn TimToady: Apart from that if allows you not to capture anything after it if you meant it to swallow everything.
But you could write 22:42
sub ($a, $b) { }
And
22:42 soh_cah_toa joined
diakopter is there a way to git add * recursively into dirs 22:42
jnthn sub (|$c1, $a, |$c2, $b, |$c3) { }
And $a and $b would get exactly the same things in them
TimToady nodnod
jnthn I actually thought that worked in Rakudo up until a few days ago, when I found it didn't get past the parse. :)
TimToady note also that I've been thinking of the snapshot-ness as a way of maybe doing partial binding 22:43
jnthn Yes, that's how we ended up with snapshot semantics :)
sorear jnthn: why, does |$c2 reset to the beginning?
jnthn sorear: No
sorear: In the above case, $c1 will have two positionals, $c2 will have one, $c3 will have nothing.
sorear: It's really "snapshot what we didn't yet bind" 22:44
TimToady so something like map could just tack a |$restart on the end and then pass that back as the new place to start next time
jnthn TimToady: Yeah, we never quite figured out what passing it back meant
sorear jnthn: ah, misunderstood what you meant by "$a and $b would get the same"
diakopter: I thought git add did that by default
jnthn sorear: ah, sorry. That wasn't so clear.
sorear: I meant same values in both cases, not some values :)
TimToady: The other problem I struggled on a bit is how to do it efficiently. 22:45
TimToady snapshotting the bind state being conceptually cleaner than introspecing sigs for arity
sorear diakopter: the manpage says it does do that by default
jnthn TimToady: Well, true, but from a cost perspective, it's cheap to ask the block its arity once then zip through the list
TimToady you almost want to have captures stored in Lispy cons lists
so your snapshot is just a pointer into the leaves 22:46
s/leaves/branches
jnthn That probably means making capture a load smarter than it curerntly is
(Which may not be a problem, of course.)
TimToady well, you asked about efficiency, and we do try to do all the Capture(Parcel) we can at compile time
anyway, cons lists beat copying all the rest of the params every time through the map 22:47
s/params/args/
jnthn Well, I was thinking about the map case in particular here
TimToady cain't think today
jnthn Part of the problem here is that I've hooked all of Parrot's arg handling that I can and I fear implementing this efficiently depends on a part I can't hook. 22:48
sorear treating captures as an alist will make named arguments very awkwrd since they can be removed in any order
TimToady just the ordered part, not the named part
jnthn sorear: I assumed we were just talking about...that. 22:49
:)
sorear TimToady: so the named part should be snapshot by copying?
jnthn sorear: That's what Rakudo does.
Nameds tend to be kinda incidental anyway.
TimToady or just deleting them when they're used
wait, that won't work, nevermind 22:50
jnthn phew, I spent a while wondering what I'd missed :P
22:50 itz left
TimToady 's brane tends to revert to mutable semantics when it is not working well 22:51
another way, keep the actual named params in the list, but have a record of which names we've seen, so we don't scan the list for names we know aren't there 22:52
jnthn TimToady: To push another issue that I'm going to run up against onto your stack: I'd like to try and figure out the "when do we have value semantics" thing at some point. (more)
22:52 itz joined
jnthn I'm currently working on the compact struct stuff. 22:52
But that raises the "what is a compact struct" question
And I'm suspecting it's better to let the programmer decide they want those semantics rather than just force them on them because their class happens to just contain native types, etc. 22:53
TimToady could well be; I kinda see the issue there
sorear jnthn: you mean pass-by-value a la CLR ValueType? 22:54
jnthn C# does it by having a class vs struct keyword
sorear: Yes, that
TimToady issue is, do you let them change an element of the struct
do you reserve the right to keep it immutable, and just poke a new struct in the same place?
sorear TimToady: sure if you declare the parameter rw :D
sorear hasn't actually thought deeply on this 22:55
TimToady at what point are refs just native immutables point to mutables?
and when do you need a natvie immutable ref pointing to a mutable ref for rw semantics
dalek ecza: 98f83a8 | Coke++ | t/spectest.data:
run fudged tests
TimToady and how do you type all those?
jnthn TimToady: Yeah, it gets...fun.
TimToady how much of C do you reproduce, in short 22:56
sorear with your keyboard or with your type system?
TimToady the latter
I don't care how it's spelled :)
jnthn TimToady: I haven't got all the way with thinking through the details yet. 22:57
TimToady and how do you reproduce C semantics on VMs that are inimical to it, such as JVM
jnthn TimToady: Getting bigint stuff right is kidna my first use case.
(Since it's the first time I have something besides int/num/str that I need to flatten in to another type)
sorear also, what of? sub foo(uint16 $x) {...}; my uint8 $y; ...; foo($y) 22:58
TimToady well, the abstraction layer is supposed to help you there, whether or not the bigint implementation scales down well enough
jnthn TimToady: That wasn't quite what I meant
sorear jnthn: why do you need to flatten Int into other types?
jnthn TimToady: Just more that at an implementation level, flattening the bigint repr's storage into Int is what we want, otherwise things get expensive. 22:59
TimToady: And doing that without cheating means I should go and work on the compact struct stuff.
Plus I don't really thinking something like P6opaque is the place to start putting in hacks :)
sorear: I don't; I need P6bigint to flatten into Int. 23:00
TimToady which is why I lean towards including a good bigint directly as Int, rather than wrapping a failover from Int64 to bigint
jnthn TimToady: Well, that's what I'm aiming at.
TimToady a good bigint package should do the little integers efficiently
as well as the big ones
if you really need the speed, you'll use natives anyway 23:01
jnthn Well, yes.
sorear I think where jnthn is going is that he wants to implement Int via NQP for consistancy with the other user-visible types 23:02
P6bigint can be a funky primitive because it's hidden
jnthn sorear: Well, it's not really an NQP level issue
sorear: It's simply that I don't want P6opaque to special-case big integer handling 23:03
Especially when it's just a degenerate case of the compact struct issue.
sorear jnthn: you could, in principle, have a custom repr for Int that handles big integers without touching P6opaque at all
jnthn Apart from the struct in question is from a bigint library
sorear: Yes, but it's be a royal pain. 23:04
sorear: I'd have to re-implement most of P6opaque inside of it.
sorear: Remember you can mix whatever you want into Int.
42 but role { has num $!alomorph } ...
sorear: It'd just make for an awkward factoring and probably cause bugs. 23:05
I'd rather Int is just a P6opaque with the bigint library's structure flattened directly into the body of it.
And if the factoring is right, from P6opaque's point of view, any flattened in stuff is just "a bunch of bytes that some repr other than me knows what to do with" 23:07
TimToady that way feels righter to me too, fwiw, wim 23:08
jnthn Anyway, that's why I'm currently twiddling a bunch of 6model guts. :) 23:10
TimToady bbl & 23:12
jnthn hmm...getting a bit tired here... 23:13
jnthn decides to continue with the refactor tomorrow
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jnthn sleep & 23:19
[Coke] sorear: I'm pretty sure all the things I've fudged today were for tests that were not already being run. 23:26
sorear ok, good
[Coke] Going forward, I'll try to make sure I open tickets if I have to fudge something in "make spectest" 23:27
that work?
23:27 whiteknight joined
sorear [Coke]: yes 23:28
o/ whiteknight
sorry if I'm being unreasonably paranoid.
whiteknight hello sorear
23:29 fridim_ joined
[Coke] sorear: no worries. 23:33
sorear: if I wanted to implement "List.munch", where would I look? 23:41
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sorear [Coke]: first you'd have to figure out what List.munch is supposed to do. It is not specced. 23:43
[Coke] sorear: excellent point. 23:44
it's used in several spec tests, unfortunately. I'd say that's a bug in either the tests or the spec. 23:45
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[Coke] opens a specbug. 23:49
23:49 bluescreen10 left
TimToady well, it's part of a bigger bug called pm hasn't rewritten the iterators chapter yet 23:49
[Coke] opened specs issue #7 so we don't lose it. 23:54

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