»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
diakopter 14 minutes 00:06
dalek ast: 099ceda | diakopter++ | S06-currying/mixed.t:
add test for RT #70890. resolves ticket.
 00:13
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dalek ast: ed30b2e | diakopter++ | S12-enums/thorough.t:
test for RT #71196. resolves ticket.
 00:21
ast: a3f5481 | diakopter++ | S12-enums/thorough.t:
fudge niecza
 00:22
TimToady rosettacode.org/wiki/Set_consolidation#Perl_6 00:27
doesn't work in rakudo for some reason though
dalek ast: 6a03ec5 | diakopter++ | S05-mass/rx.t:
test RT #71702. resolves ticket
diakopter TimToady: \o/ a golfing challenge 00:28
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TimToady well, I was aiming more for clarity... 00:29
and FP, but it still has a mutable variable 00:30
diakopter does rakudo not have those set operators? 00:31
TimToady it supposedly does 00:32
nr: say set('a','b') ∪ set('b','c')
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«set(a, b, c)␤»
..rakudo 636527: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/7lZrRxbqcp:1␤»
TimToady maybe not 00:33
diakopter I don't even see union or intersection methods in rakudo's Set.pm 00:37
dalek ast: 6a6a83f | diakopter++ | S04-statements/redo.t:
test RT #72442. resolves ticket.
 00:46
TimToady that's very odd; I wonder if they got lost in a branch merge somewhere along the way 00:47
mdmkolbe Does the argument list interpolation operator (prefix "|"), mean anything on other contexts or is it just for argument list interpolation? 00:54
TimToady if it's in another context, it wouldn't be a prefix operator...
mdmkolbe ? 00:55
I mean is it's use as an argument list interpolation operator a special case of a more general operation or is it just for that one use case? 00:57
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dalek ast: 369d517 | diakopter++ | S12-class/basic.t:
test RT #72916
 00:58
diakopter resolves ticket.
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adu hi diakopter 00:59
diakopter mdmkolbe: no, when used as a prefix, that's the only meaning | has.
TimToady I don't see any more general case for it, but argument list interpolation already seems pretty general to me
diakopter adu: howdy 01:00
adu oh, you're talking about passing a list as arguments?
mdmkolbe adu: yes 01:01
adu well 01:02
I suppose that's different from currying 01:03
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TimToady well...p6 doesn't really do currying, it just does partial function application 01:05
and this ain't it
mdmkolbe perl6: say 1, (2, 3), 4 01:06
p6eval rakudo 636527, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«12 34␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«1234␤»
TimToady though I supposed &func.assuming(|@args) could be viewed as a form of currying
but technically currying has to do with a series of functions of 1 argument 01:08
Haskell does that, but Perl 6 doesn't
adu I remember reading about .assuming 01:10
mdmkolbe IIUC, p6 has subtyping over parametric types. How does it resolve the resulting inconsistencies? I.e., from a type theory perspective, Bowl[Apple] shouldn't be a subtype of Bowl[Fruit] because you can't put an Orange in a Bowl[Apple].
adu I've read a few of the synopses many times
mdmkolbe (Sorry for so many questions, I'm learning Perl 6 and am currios about some of the design decisions as my day job is in programming language research.)
adu mdmkolbe: we should be friends 01:11
diakopter there, I added eval_dies_with_error to rakudo. now to see about niecza 01:12
TimToady mdmkolbe: you should ask jnthn++ that when he's on; he's been thinking about these things, and I believe has some ideas on where Perl 6 should head in that regard 01:14
me, I go all handwavey at that point 01:15
type theory is not my speciality
mdmkolbe (re: argument lists) I guess I would have expected something like func(*@args) since that parallels the slurpy syntax (Maybe there a problems with that) 01:16
TimToady we decided to steal * for something else
its use to mean "whatever" cannot be combined with use as a prefix operator 01:17
mdmkolbe TimToady: that makes sense
TimToady nr: constant \fib = 0,1,*+* ... *; say fib[^20]
p6eval rakudo 636527: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing initializer on constant declaration␤at /tmp/9UrGjMbi_d:1␤» 01:18
..niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object␤ at Niecza.Kernel.ToComposable (Niecza.STable arg, Niecza.STable cls) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at Niecza.Kernel.ApplyRoleToClass (Niecza.ST…
TimToady hmm
nr: constant @fib = 0,1,*+* ... *; say @fib[^20]
p6eval rakudo 636527, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181␤»
TimToady and | looks like a slit that you cut, into which you insert the argments :) 01:19
sorear niecza apparently thinks fib is a role
TimToady nr: my \fib = 0,1,*+* ... *; say fib[^20] 01:20
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object␤ at Niecza.Kernel.ToComposable (Niecza.STable arg, Niecza.STable cls) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at Niecza.Kernel.ApplyRoleToClass (Niecza.ST…
..rakudo 636527: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed my␤at /tmp/Z2NJ0yyW7n:1␤»
TimToady nr: constant fib = 0,1,*+* ... *; say fib[^20]
p6eval rakudo 636527: OUTPUT«0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181␤»
..niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object␤ at Niecza.Kernel.ToComposable (Niecza.STable arg, Niecza.STable cls) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at Niecza.Kernel.ApplyRoleToClass (Niecza.ST…
mdmkolbe TimToady: I'm not sure whether to laugh or groan at that visual pun 01:21
TimToady if you're going to hang around here, you'll get used to thinking that things aren't actually mutually exclusive most of the time
diakopter please share; I don't see a pun :) 01:22
mdmkolbe What does "::" signify in a type parameter? (e.g. role [::T] { ... })
TimToady capture a type 'en passant' from the argument
nr: sub sametype (::T $, T $) { say "Same type" }; sametype 42,43 01:23
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤GLOBAL::T does not name any package at /tmp/cmv_acYXqG line 1:␤------> sub sametype (::T⏏ $, T $) { say "Same type" }; sametype 4␤␤A type must be provided at /tmp/cmv_acYXqG line 1:␤------> sub sametyp…
..rakudo 636527: OUTPUT«Same type␤»
TimToady NYI in niecza, apparently
r: sub sametype (::T $, T $) { say "Same type" }; sametype 42,"foo" 01:24
p6eval rakudo 636527: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter ''; expected Int but got Str instead␤ in sub sametype at /tmp/tlkkCFc6DE:1␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/tlkkCFc6DE:1␤␤»
TimToady hmm, that error message is LTA, should probably say 'parameter 2"
mdmkolbe ok, that also makes sense. Is there another visual pun about why the choice of "::" for that? 01:25
TimToady that's more a historical accident, since :: is the nested package delimiter in Perl 5 01:26
but we do at least trying to keep things looking different, even when there isn't an explicit visual metaphor 01:27
all the metaoperators look very different from each other, and from normal operators 01:28
diakopter sorear: is ~~ available in niecza's Test.pm?
TimToady list infixes tend to be either tall or wide so they can be seen in the middle of two lists 01:29
sorear diakopter: yes
diakopter ah, there I see it
mdmkolbe Ok, now my biggest question: roles vs classes. Other than not being able to be instanciated, it looks like roles are a strict superset of the features of classes (maybe I missed something). Why would I write with a class instead of always writing roles and then (so I can instanciate it) writting a dummy class that inherits from the role?
TimToady roles are immutable; classes are mutable 01:30
but if you use a role as if it were a class, it will "pun" an anonymous class for you
mdmkolbe TimToady: the contents are immutable or the definition is immutable? 01:31
diakopter sorear: I'd like to add this to rakudo gist.github.com/2856077 I was wondering what you thought about adding something like that to niecza. for checking error messages.
TimToady a role has no contents in the sense that a class does
if a role has attributes, it really means that it *will* have attributes when instantiated 01:32
but again, jnthn is the go-to-guy for all the nitty-gritty details 01:33
but he's asleep right now
something to do with living in Sweden...
mdmkolbe TimToady: I'm still not understanding what part of a class can mutate that can't in a role. We have rw attributes in a role right? 01:34
TimToady you can add methods on the fly to a class, for instance, via monkey typing
nr: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class Int { method wave () { say "{self} waves" } }; 42.wave 01:35
p6eval rakudo 636527, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«42 waves␤»
mdmkolbe TimToady: ok, that clarifies the mutability. Is there any reason to write classes (instead of roles) for something other than monkey typing? 01:36
TimToady unlike in Ruby, this is discouraged, hence the need for "use MONKEY_TYPING"
well, there's the whole inheritance tree thing, which is occasionally useful 01:37
there's mixins...
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mdmkolbe Roles don't get those? 01:37
TimToady nr: say so (0 but True)
p6eval rakudo 636527, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady you can mixin in roles, but mixins use inheritance to derive an anonymous new class 01:38
colomon was just pondering a role as a completely abstract interface -- one method which is defined as { ... }
TimToady s/ in /
so mixins are always a relationship between two classes
sorear mdmkolbe: Role/class punning makes me uneasy. I think it's a huge hack conflating separate semantic domains, and I don't use it in any of my code 01:40
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sorear mdmkolbe: one feature you lose if you go roles-only is the ability to override methods 01:40
diakopter: um. 01:41
diakopter: nom has regexes. 01:42
diakopter I didn't type that
mdmkolbe I'm willing to take it on authority that the two concepts can't be unified, but as a language designer/compiler writer I'm having difficulty seeing the benefit to separating the ideas.
diakopter sorear: that's copied from eval_dies_ok
TimToady roles are compile-time types, while classes are run-time types
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TimToady a class is more like a container of roles 01:42
sorear diakopter: ah well 01:43
diakopter: go ahead, I don't mind that in nieczxa
mdmkolbe sorear: I thought I saw an example of one role overriding a method it inherits from another role
diakopter yay, glad to know you typo it too
TimToady we don't say that roles inherit; they "compose" 01:44
diakopter colomon: do you have commit access to rakudo?
TimToady on one level roles are straight out of Smalltalk Traits
colomon diakopter: should have it still, yes 01:45
sorear I'm not saying that the concepts *can't* be unified
but I don't know of anyone who has read _Composable Units of Behavior_ and is comfortable with the idea
TimToady confusing mutable containers with immutable contents tends to give optimizers hissyfits
diakopter colomon: would you like to add my last gist to rakudo's Test.pm? It would help me close a bunch of RT tickets to actually test for errors. Where rakudo and niecza differ on the (both correct) error, the pattern can contain both. 01:46
TimToady Perl 5 did that all over; in Perl 6 we're trying not to do it so often
diakopter a bunch of the testneeded tickets on RT are for LTA errors
sorear diakopter: I think that, nine times out of ten, it makes sense to standardize error messages 01:47
TimToady when you try to combine the concepts of role and class you end up with monstrosities like "final classes"
mdmkolbe TimToady: the compile-time/runtime distinction is semi-persuasive. To explore your "container" explanation, would you say a class is similar to the v-table in C++ (i.e., it is the dynamic "thing" shared by multiple objects describing their behaviors)? 01:48
TimToady well, v-tables are a mechanism to preserve some performance when you have to do late binding because you don't know what you're dealing with typewise (polymorphism) 01:49
mdmkolbe (A role would then be the static "things" that can describe one part of that behavior. A differene from C++ is that in C++ you only get one static "behavior thing" per dynamic "behavior thing")
sorear although, as an optimizer writer, I want final in perl6 pretty badly 01:50
TimToady roles are kind of a way to present more information to the compiler without (much) impacting the flexibility of the runtime
sorear it would be *awesome* to know that within the scope of my Str $x; $x.chars can be turned into an offset pointer fetch
etc
you get some of that with multis, but not quite all 01:51
TimToady sorear: final is available at CHECK time if a class has not been requested to stay open/non-final
colomon diakopter: I don't mind making the change, but I would kind of like to wait long enough to make sure there's sone consensus on it...
*some 01:52
TimToady S12:2132 for finalization rules 01:53
mdmkolbe well I have to get back to writing for a conference deadline, thanks for answering my questions 01:56
diakopter colomon: I figured sorear's assent to add the analogous method in niecza was enough consensus 01:57
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colomon diakopter: and no one seems to be saying "No, no!"... 01:58
will be a few, I've not updated Rakudo in a couple of weeks.
*few minutes
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sorear TimToady: the main problem with deferring stuff to CHECK time is that it reduces the benefit of precompiling the setting 02:00
I'll see what things are like after non-bootstrap gets a bit further 02:01
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diakopter sorear: I'm definitely going to need help writing that for niecza's Test.pm6 02:09
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dalek kudo/nom: eff089b | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/Test.pm:
Add diakopter++'s eval_dies_with_error.
 02:11
colomon There you are.
diakopter whee! 02:12
colomon: thanks 02:15
colomon no problem, hope it works okay! ;) 02:16
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TimToady colomon: I thought you ported sets from niecza to rakudo at one point, or am I confabulating? 03:06
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sorear niecza definitely has working sets 03:13
I remember the pain of getting all those extra operators to work in the setting
TimToady indeed, using them in rosettacode.org/wiki/Set_consolidation#Perl_6
but I was pretty sure rakudo had 'em too, and they seem to have evaporated 03:14
pmichaud maybe try b: ?
b: say Set
p6eval b 922500: OUTPUT«Set()␤»
pmichaud looks like they existed in Beijing
I have to run some errands at the moment, but I'll be happy to port them 03:15
diakopter Set is there, but I couldn't find the intersection or union operators
pmichaud if nobody else beats me to it :)
I suggest stealing from niecza if possible :)
afk for a bit
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moritz \o 06:25
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sorear o/ 06:39
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tadzik o/ 07:26
sorear o/ 07:27
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dalek ecza/non-bootstrap: ba74410 | sorear++ | lib/ (2 files):
Op.pm6 translation, part 2
 08:15
ecza/non-bootstrap: 7aa4b5e | sorear++ | lib/ (6 files):
Use new array munging helpers whereever possible in the kernel
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sergot hi o/ 08:40
sorear o/
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sorear what's really remarkable here is that in the code I've converted so far, the blowup factor has only been on the order of 50% 08:46
I was expecting it to more like triple the size
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dalek ecza/non-bootstrap: a315a5c | sorear++ | lib/Op.cs:
Op, part 3
 09:12
sorear sleep&
GlitchMr Just wondering, is hash key order preserved in Perl 6? 09:16
ok, it doesn't look like it preserves 09:17
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GlitchMr perl6: 1, 2 XXX 3, 4 09:25
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "XX"␤ expecting operator␤ at /tmp/Up9OlShodJ line 1, column 7␤»
..rakudo eff089, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: ( no output )
GlitchMr nr: print (1, 2 XXX 3, 4).perl
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«(1, 3, 1, 4, 2, 3, 2, 4).list»
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«((ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),)).list»
GlitchMr perl6: @a = 1, 2, 3; @a»++; print (@a).perl 09:27
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected " ="␤ expecting "::"␤ Variable "@a" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤ at /tmp/26P58UzCrd line 1, column 3␤»
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable @a is not declared␤at /tmp/T0SLkdESvg:1␤»
..niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Variable @a is not predeclared at /tmp/MIukkvMkOx line 1:␤------> <BOL>⏏@a = 1, 2, 3; @a»++; print (@a).perl␤␤Variable @a is not predeclared at /tmp/MIukkvMkOx line 1:␤------> @a = 1, 2, 3; ⏏…
GlitchMr perl6: my @a = 1, 2, 3; @a»++; print (@a).perl
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«[2, 3, 4].list»
..pugs: OUTPUT«\(1, 2, 3)»
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«Array.new(2, 3, 4)»
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GlitchMr As for mutable grammars: paste.uk.to/ad5489c4 09:30
They are very flexible :). 09:31
... except I've noticed problem with my function
For 0! it returns 0 :(
sub postfix:<!> { [*] 1 .. $^a or 1 } 09:33
This should fix it. 09:34
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jnthn ohhai o/ 09:59
r: say Set 10:02
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«Set()␤»
jnthn I think we have the set type, but not the unicode-y operators
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Woodi hallo 10:47
jnthn o/ Woodi 10:48
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Woodi mdmkolbe: classes and roles are near the same, roles are kind of primitive classes. difference is that roles are addition to inheritance hierarchy. if you have Figure -> Square | Circle hierarchy and want to add Logging functionality in pure OO you should add it to superclass and pollute all hierarchy. with roles/interfaces you just plug-in when it is needed. so for me it is mainly for keeping classes small, clean, reusable, etc, etc... 10:52
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jnthn Well, I tend to see roles as more the unit of resuse 10:53
Classes are probably still the unit of responsibility.
(As in, SRP.)
Woodi reuse of roles or classes ? 10:54
jnthn Woodi: I tend to think of roles as the way to factor re-usable concepts, and classes gather them together into an object that covers a responsibility. 10:56
Consider how the Perl 6 metamodel is factored. 10:57
We have roles like Naming, MROBasedMethodDispatch, C3MRO, AttributeContainer
All of these cover concepts, but aren't any use in and of themselves.
By contrast, the classes - like ClassHOW - compose various roles and add the extra bits needed in order to satisfy the responsibility (in this case, ClassHOW is responsible for implementing the semantics of Perl 6 classes). 10:58
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jnthn Now, you *can* re-use ClassHOW. That's what GrammarHOW does, by inheriting from it. But inheritance is only a tool for behavior specialization, so it's only applicable to a fairly restricted range of re-use possibilities. 11:00
For more re-use, we then turn to composition...so it's not really so surprising to find that roles, our tool for re-use, are compositional in nature. 11:01
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moritz back 11:16
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jnthn good afty, moritz o/ 11:19
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Woodi jnthn: I mean roles and classes are the same on syntactic lvl so it realy seems you can not have roles. and it is small twist becouse interfaces in Java comes first and they come near without implementation so "code re-use" seems strange on first look :) anyway I need to learn better responsibility vs behaviour... 11:25
colomon TimToady: I didn't port sets to rakudo, someone else (maybe moritz++?) did. 11:29
tadzik I did, I think
jnthn thinks it was tadzik++
tadzik git blames me 11:30
moritz and I think the reason for not having the set operators was that having non-Latin-1 characters inside the setting slowed things down considerably
jnthn Suddenly QRegex!
moritz but I think that now, after qbootstrap, that's not a problem anymore
jnthn Right, it really shouldn't be now.
tadzik fwiw, I didn't port them for no reason. Just didn't :) 11:31
or I can't recall any blockers
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moritz r: role A [$] { }; class B { }; class C is B { }; say A[C] ~~ A[B] 12:07
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«True␤»
moritz r: role A [$] { }; class B { }; class C is B { }; say A[B] ~~ A[C]
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«False␤»
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GlitchMr I have proposal which shouldn't be ever implemented. 12:33
tadzik then for whom is that proposal? 12:34
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GlitchMr sub query $query {} # if doesn't require parenthesis, so why sub would need... 12:34
(but seriously, I think that parenthesis are good) 12:35
moritz r: sub query { }; say query # look, no parens :-)
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
arnsholt moritz: Oooh, does that mean the role parameter bug is fixed? 12:37
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moritz arnsholt: no, that's a different one 12:49
r: class A { }; role R { }; say (A.new but R) ~~ (A.new but R) 12:50
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«False␤»
moritz r: class A { }; role R { }; say (A.new but R) ~~ (A but R)
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«False␤»
moritz that's the one
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arnsholt Oh well =) 13:10
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arnsholt jnthn: OOC, how hard d'you think it'd be to fix the (A.new but R) !~ (A.new but R) bug? 13:17
jnthn arnsholt: We don't cache the mixins we produce at all at the moment. 13:19
arnsholt: It's probably not too hard.
Shouldn't need any C work, just NQP stuff 13:20
arnsholt Cool. I might try to look into it when I get some tuits 13:23
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jnthn Go for it. I'm gonna be on alternation LTM and pre-comp fixes for the a bit. 13:25
arnsholt Spiffy. LTM are pre-compilation are definitely cooler than mixin bugs =) 13:30
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TimToady nr: sub postfix:<!> { [*] 1 .. $^a }; say 0! 14:36
p6eval rakudo eff089, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«1␤»
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TimToady GlitchMr: where do you get the idea that it returns 0? 14:36
GlitchMr Weird..., 14:37
Possibly because I had old version of Niecza
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TimToady could be 14:38
GlitchMr I've updated it and it works correctly
I had two months old version of Niecza
TimToady I don't remember when niecza implemented nullary defaults 14:39
nr: my $a; $a *= 42; say $a
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«42␤»
..niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1262 (warn @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 296 (Any.Numeric @ 8) ␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/i3lpZCWKpW line 1 (mainlin…
TimToady there's another spot that could use some work 14:40
same notion though
moritz two months can be a lot of time in p6 land :-) 14:41
TimToady I think that's about the half life of my brain cells nowadays...
nr: my $a; $a min= 42; say $a 14:42
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«42␤»
TimToady nr: my $a; $a max= 42; say $a 14:43
p6eval rakudo eff089, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«42␤»
TimToady nr: my $a; $a &&= 42; say $a 14:44
p6eval rakudo eff089, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
moritz hey, people actually use 'nr' and 'rn' :-)
tadzik it would seem so :)
TimToady nr: say [&&]() 14:45
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤This macro cannot be used as a function at /tmp/0cuR56ROwa line 1 (EOF):␤------> say [&&]()⏏<EOL>␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1401 (die @ 5) ␤ at…
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady arguably, if [&&] returns true, so should &&= 42
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TimToady nr: my $a; $a &= 42; say $a 14:46
moritz nr: say True && 42
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«all(all(), 42)␤»
..niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
rakudo eff089, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«42␤»
TimToady nr: say so all() 14:47
p6eval rakudo eff089, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady &= 42 can just return all(42) there, I'd think
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moritz r: say all(all(), 42) ~~ 42 14:49
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«all(all(), True)␤»
moritz r: say so all(all(), 42) ~~ 42
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«True␤»
moritz though it seems they are equivalent
TimToady nr: my $a; $a ^= 42; say $a 14:50
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«one(one(), 42)␤»
TimToady probably repeated ^= cannot be the same as [^] 14:51
nr: my $a; $a ^= 42; $a ^= "oops"; say $a 14:52
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«one(one(one(), 42), oops)␤»
TimToady nr: my $a; $a ^= 42; $a ^= "oops"; $a ^= "true again?"; say $a
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«one(one(one(one(), 42), oops), true again?)␤»
TimToady nr: my $a; $a ^= 42; $a ^= "oops"; $a ^= "true again?"; say so $a 14:53
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«(timeout)Stacktrace:␤␤ at (wrapper managed-to-native) object.__icall_wrapper_mono_object_isinst (object,intptr) <0xffffffff>␤ at Niecza.Kernel.UnboxAny<T> (Niecza.P6any) <0x0002b>␤ at Niecza.CtxJunctionBool.Get (Niecza.Variable) <0x000f7>␤ at Niecza.Ctx…
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady ooh, kaboomy!
14:54 crab2313 left, xinming_ left
zby_home hi there - is this a help channel? 14:55
TimToady only for Perl 6, not for Perl 5
tadzik hello zby_home
TimToady unless you're thinking about jumping off a bridge, in which case, yes, it is :)
14:56 crab2313 joined
zby_home nopaste.snit.ch/143026 14:56
tadzik r: class A { }; say A.new.^name.perl 14:57
zby_home I can call WHAT from outside but not from inside?
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«"A"␤»
TimToady WHAT is not a real method, it's just a macro
tadzik zby_home: consider using that ^
zby_home aha
thanks
tadzik although someone will probably smack me for suggesting an evil thing :)
TimToady self.WHAT oughta work there 14:58
I don't see why you need an extra .new 14:59
zby_home "Non-declarative sigil is missing its name" this was for replacing it with "method ref { $.^name.perl }"
TimToady use self.^name 15:00
zby_home "method ref { self.WHAT.perl }" worked!
moritz hm, interesting
TimToady nobody's bothered to define the $.WHAT form of the macro
moritz currently $thing.name does all the 'is "name" the name of a macro-ish method?' checking 15:01
but $.name does not
I guess it should. Should it?
TimToady waffles 15:02
moritz pancakes
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TimToady wonders how "waffles" came to mean that 15:02
moritz maybe there was a culture where people exchanged meaningless gossip while eating waffles? 15:03
sounds certainly like a nice culture. I love waffles :-)
TimToady not apparently related to waffle the flat edible, probably from obsolete 'waff', to yelp 15:05
unless people used to yelp when they saw a waffle...
according to the AmHer
.[*-1,*-2] = .[*-2,*-1] 15:06
nr: my $_ = [<w a f f l e>]; .[*-1,*-2].=reverse; .say 15:09
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol $_␤at /tmp/pr8gGwj_X7:1␤»
..niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Useless redeclaration of variable $_ (see line 0) at /tmp/xyLWlzD_2Y line 1:␤------> my $_ ⏏= [<w a f f l e>]; .[*-1,*-2].=reverse; ␤␤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method reverse in type Parcel␤ at /tm…
TimToady r: $_ = [<w a f f l e>]; .[*-1,*-2].=reverse; .say
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«w a f f e l␤»
15:10 cognominal_ left
TimToady a nieczabug, perhaps, unless someone can argue that rakudo is wrong to make it work :) 15:11
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TimToady n: $_ = [<w a f f l e>]; .[*-1,*-2].=reverse; .say 15:12
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method reverse in type Parcel␤ at /tmp/usOFskbmTX line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3911 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3912 (module-CORE @ 558) ␤ at /h…
TimToady n: $_ = [<w a f f l e>]; .[*-1,*-2] = .[*-1,*-2].reverse; .say
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method reverse in type Parcel␤ at /tmp/7XVWKtBmVS line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3911 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3912 (module-CORE @ 558) ␤ at /h…
tadzik can anyone peek at gist.github.com/2858778 ?
for some reason an exception is rethrown there
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TimToady nice prompt :) 15:13
tadzik why, thank you :)
moritz: have a second? 15:14
diakopter TimToady: there were wafflemakers at Texas A&M's cafeteria that you flipped back and forth, rotating them 180 and back. 15:15
tadzik it's the existence of CATCH block that rethrows it
even if it's empty
TimToady an empty catch block needs a default to catch everything 15:16
it's the action of succeeding a case that marks the exception as caught 15:17
dropping out the bottom will always rethrow 15:18
tadzik hmm 15:19
jnthn Yes, wrap it in a default { ... }
$.WHAT - the things people thing of... :) 15:20
*think
tadzik yeah, default fixes that
was it always this way in Rakudo?
TimToady if it wasn't, it was a bug
jnthn tadzik: Not always, but it's been for quite a while now.
tadzik understood
I don't CATCH enough exception I guess :)
TimToady it's always been specced this way
well, except before it was specced at all... 15:21
jnthn Yeah, Rakudo had a rather handwavey implementation of exceptions a while back :)
diakopter TimToady: in a WhateverCode of a sequence generator, is the current list index available as a variable? 15:22
TimToady no
jnthn You could potentially use a state var to track it
TimToady this usually means you shouldn't be using ...
diakopter wonders how to make an efficient lazy list of the factorials
flussence r: say |.push: .pop, .pop given 'waffle'.comb # handy thing, that pipe. 15:23
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«waffel␤»
TimToady factorial doesn't need absolute index
only relative, which ... already provides
diakopter how might factorials look 15:25
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jnthn 1, 1, *+* ... * 15:26
oh wait
that's...grr
:)
TimToady yeah, me too
at least I have the excuse that it's morning
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jnthn Morning is a relative concept :) 15:27
diakopter decides to get waffles from the local greasy spoon
15:27 brrt left
TimToady nr: my @fact = [\*] 1..*; say @fact[10] 15:27
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«39916800␤» 15:28
TimToady diakopter: that's what you're loking for
jnthn r: say (1, { $_ * ($_ + 1) }, ... *)[^10]
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Comma found before apparent series operator; please remove comma (or put parens␤ around the ... listop, or use 'fail' instead of ...) at line 2, near " ... *)[^1"␤»
15:28 cognominal_ left
jnthn r: say (1, { $_ * ($_ + 1) } ... *)[^10] 15:28
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«1 2 6 42 1806 3263442 10650056950806 113423713055421844361000442 12864938683278671740537145998360961546653259485195806 165506647324519964198468195444439180017513152706377497841851388766535868639572406808911988131737645185442␤»
jnthn oh, dang
15:28 spaceships left
jnthn shouldn't do anything hard on a weekend :) 15:28
TimToady wonders what the verb "loke" would mean... 15:29
anyhoo, ... is one of those attractive hammers that makes things look like a nail 15:30
in this case a triangle reduction works much better
jnthn Aye, it's very nice.
zby_home nopaste.snit.ch/143032 15:31
jnthn r: my @fact = [\*] 1..*; say @fact[100]
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«9425947759838359420851623124482936749562312794702543768327889353416977599316221476503087861591808346911623490003549599583369706302603264000000000000000000000000␤»
zby_home I need to dynamically load a class and then check if it isa another class
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TimToady zby_home: could be an XY problem 15:32
zby_home it is for a Catalyst like dispatcher 15:33
it loads classes under MyApp/Controller
and checks if they are subclasses of something - just to be sure that I can dispatch there
jnthn ::($c) is what you need for an indirect lookup. And don't do string .isa
.isa(A) is fine, or just smartmatch against the superclass. 15:34
r: my $c = 'Test'; require $c; say 'alive'
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«alive␤»
jnthn Yeah, that bit works.
zby_home hmm ::($c).isa( 'A' ); worked for me 15:35
but not with isa ( A ) 15:36
jnthn Well, is A in scope? 15:37
zby_home P is A
I require P so it should load A 15:38
I don't know if that means A is in scope
but it fails as if it was not
jnthn It isn't; you should explicitly use the thing that contains A.
zby_home but with that string isa it worked
jnthn As type names need to exist at compile time.
Otherwise, they'll be considered list ops.
zby_home aha
OK
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TimToady nr: gist.github.com/2847343 15:40
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'push'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Any:U \$self, *@values, Mu *%_)␤␤ in method push at src/gen/CORE.setting:1169␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/GPAAh6hTnH:6␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:5045␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4940…
..niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«[[1, 2], [], [3, 4]]␤[[1, 3], [], [2, 4]]␤[[1, 4], [], [2, 3]]␤[[2, 3], [], [1, 4]]␤[[2, 4], [], [1, 3]]␤[[3, 4], [], [1, 2]]␤»
15:41 ponbiki left
TimToady afk & 15:41
jnthn Yes, that one probably needs me to fix the phasers/recursion issue.
15:55 tokuhiro_ left
cognominal___ hi, what is the rational of outlawed nqp:: opcode? 15:59
tadzik they're too Parrot-specific 16:00
jnthn cognominal___: See discussion here for details but - the ones we outlawed are too close to how Parrot works.
cognominal___ I don't understand, that means rakudo will be always parrot specific? 16:01
moritz no 16:02
it means we'll have to have backend-specific code
or find better abstractions
jnthn Many of the cases we have at the moment mean "we didn't 6model-ize something yet" 16:04
PAST => QAST will remove a bunch of 'em, for example.
cognominal___ ok, thx for the explanation
diakopter likes how my ubuntu vm restarts in like 5 seconds
cognominal___ diakopter, just installed it in a virtualbox and I was amazed 16:05
tadzik huh, what 16:06
diakopter vmware player on windows and vmware fusion on mac are my fav
cognominal___ tried to install smartos but did not figure out to see a virtual nic.
diakopter goes to figure out eval_dies_with_error for niecza
GlitchMr How can I specify any numeric type in static typing 16:15
By that I mean, Int, Rat, Num and Complex 16:16
(and probably other numeric types)
16:17 mucker left
GlitchMr ok, found it 16:18
I've to use "Real" type
jnthn Note that Complex is not in Real. If you want to accept that too, use Numeric 16:21
16:22 lazyking left
GlitchMr nr: print (-> (Numeric $x) { $x })(5) 16:24
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method Capture in type Int␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/dG7JICrkpW line 0 (ANON @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/dG7JICrkpW line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3911 (ANON @ 3) ␤ …
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 1 in sub-signature␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/vd5Gwsvus3:1␤␤»
GlitchMr What am I doing wrong?
jnthn Parents 16:25
er
parens
GlitchMr Oh wait, -> is not for functions
jnthn It is
But you do not put the signature in parens
r: print (-> Numeric $x { $x })(5)
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«5»
moritz if you do, it is parsed as a subsignature
jnthn Right.
moritz that's why rakudo's error message says "in sub-signature" 16:26
[Coke] ZOMGWTFBBQ. 16:27
jnthn [Coke]: Hope the weather is better where you are for a BBQ than it is here :P 16:28
dalek ecza: 2a30970 | diakopter++ | lib/Test.pm6:
analogous eval_dies_with_error for niecza
 16:29
moritz diakopter: I hope you're not putting stuff in roast that uses eval_dies_with_error 16:30
GlitchMr Why not? 16:31
moritz because there's a much more general throws_like being developed in S32-exceptions/misc.t that can also handle typed exceptions properly 16:32
GlitchMr Also, does anybody ever uses those "review" links?
moritz yes
GlitchMr (oh wait) 16:33
Whatever
diakopter moritz: this works in niecza too?
16:33 JimmyZ_ left
moritz diakopter: probably not 16:33
diakopter I needed something that works in niecza too 16:34
GlitchMr nr: print 5 + now
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«Instant:1338654905.306785»
..niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot use value like Instant as a number␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 295 (Any.Numeric @ 6) ␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/KgbNVolrrJ line 1 (mainline @ 3)…
moritz then match againt "$!" in the tests for now
introducing an inferior standard when a better one is emerging is harmful
GlitchMr Why I cannot do this in Niecza? Not implemented?
dalek ast: 30363b2 | moritz++ | S05-mass/rx.t:
avoid &say in case of a test failre (to not confuse test harness)
 16:35
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diakopter moritz: ok, feel free to remove the eval_dies_with_error in Test.pm 16:35
this just slows me down considerably for closing tickets 16:36
and means tons of duplicated code
in roast
moritz diakopter: the proper way is not to check exception messages, but to throw typed exceptions, and check the type
GlitchMr niecza: use Threads; Thread.new(42); # Shouldn't crash whole interpreter
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object␤ at Niecza.Frame.MakeChild (Niecza.Frame outer, Niecza.SubInfo info, Niecza.P6any sub) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at Niecza.Kernel.GetInferi… 16:37
moritz everything else is technical debt
diakopter moritz: that's a very narrow view
moritz (and yes, that's much slower to implement, I know)
diakopter: but from long experience with roast and several implementations
dalek ecza: 014fec3 | diakopter++ | lib/Test.pm6:
remove eval_dies_with_error
GlitchMr Weird, it caused "Program stopping working" in Windows 16:38
diakopter moritz: ok, feel free to remove the eval_dies_with_error in rakudo's Test.pm (that colomon added for me)
moritz: I guess I'll give up on closing these RT tickets then, becaues it's too hard
because someone will have to make all these exceptions for niecza and rakudo before these tickets can be closed 16:39
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diakopter I am complaining about this; adding tests to compare against $! is just as much technical debt as using a new (could be TEMPORARY) function in Test.pm 16:41
and even more technical debt, I'm arguing, because they're even harder to find in the test suite to replace once the new standard is used, if ever 16:42
using a function in Test.pm makes them all easy to find at once
jnthn diakopter: But some folks (especially moritz++) *has* been adding a load of these typed exceptions in Rakudo and taking care of designing them into a nice structure. 16:43
diakopter: I think it's even documented somewhere how to do it. 16:44
There's probably into the 100s of 'em by now.
diakopter I knew about this. that doesn't factor into what I'm saying. once they're implemented in niecza too, I think they can be used in roast 16:45
jnthn That makes no sense. If we worked like that, roast would only be allowed to contain tests that Rakudo and Niecza could both pass :)
diakopter that's not what I was saying.
jnthn Shouldn't leave Pugs out either ;) 16:46
diakopter the RT tickets address LTA error messages, not exceptions.
so the corresponding tests should be about the error messages, not exceptions.
so I'm arguing that I should be able to compare against the text of an error message in roast, that's all, and I wanted a function in Test to do that. 16:47
I wanted to be able to test them in niecza too.
GlitchMr perlcabal.org/syn/S29.html#Obsolete_Functions
%() function?
moritz diakopter: my point is that even smart-matching against "$!" is technical debt, and making it easier to write technical debt isn't progress 16:49
diakopter jnthn: I can't test against the exceptions in niecza, so I need to compare against error message text. I don't want to write two tests, one for rakudo and one for niecza, one testing the exception and one checking error message text.
16:49 snearch joined
diakopter moritz: I fully disagree. if the technical debt needs to be written, making it easier to write is TOTALLY better. 16:50
jnthn diakopter: Then write it in the way that is the emerging standard for doing these things (the typed exceptions) and Niecza will come to pass it once it implements the typed exceptions.
moritz diakopter: but it doesn't need to be written
GlitchMr Isn't that function called infix:<%> now?
diakopter moritz: why not? these tickets don't need closed? We don't need to compare against the text of error messages?
moritz diakopter: the tests can be written to use typed exceptions, and then niecza doesn't pass them.
GlitchMr And I don't think that Perl 5 had %() function 16:51
jnthn diakopter: The LTA tickets aren't usually so much about the wording as the failure mode.
diakopter: Most of them really are that stuff fails in the wrong way/for the wrong reason
A typed exception is a much better way to assess whether the failure mode was correct. 16:52
Imagine one day we localize things so the errors are in $other-language. Tests looking at the typed exceptions will be fine. Ones that looked at exact wording, less so.
diakopter as I said twice already, feel free to revert colomon's commit from last night 16:55
I already reverted it in niecza
jnthn: I wasn't arguing that it wasn't technical debt (which it seems you are trying to convince me of). 16:59
jnthn: I am reacting confusedly to moritz's conflicting suggestions to compare against $! in roast, and catch typed exceptions in roast. 17:00
first comparing against $! is okay, and then it's not.
moritz diakopter: ok, my first reaction was wrong. Comparing against $! isn't good. 17:01
diakopter: sorry for the confusion
diakopter the entire rest of my argument was based on that
obviously.
moritz yes, sorry about that 17:02
dalek kudo/nom: 5d36100 | moritz++ | lib/Test.pm:
remove eval_dies_with_error

the proper way are typed exceptions; a helper function for those is currently being developed in t/spec/S32-exceptions/misc.t
  (and will later be moved to Test.pm or Test::Util
GlitchMr nr: print (1, 2, 3).bytes
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«10»
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«5»
GlitchMr ... what?
moritz nr: say (1, 2, 3).Str 17:03
p6eval rakudo eff089, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
moritz nr: say (1, 2, 3).Str.bytes
p6eval rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«5␤»
..niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«10␤»
moritz nr: say (1, 2, 3).Str.chars 17:04
p6eval rakudo eff089, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«5␤»
GlitchMr UTF-16?
moritz seems like
GlitchMr Why we have bytes anyways?
It doesn't make sense with normal strings. 17:05
jnthn wonders if .bytes even makes sense without an argument to specify the encoding.
GlitchMr It could be UTF-8, UTF-16, UTF-32, ISO-8859-1, anything
jnthn Otherwise the result is meaningless
moritz well, there's some spec on that
GlitchMr It has to we converted into some encoding first
flussence "assume utf8" seems like a sane default to me
17:05 fgomez left
moritz the default is $?ENCODING or so, and efault to UTF-8 17:05
jnthn ah, ok 17:06
GlitchMr nr: print $?ENCODING
p6eval niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1262 (warn @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 268 (Mu.Str @ 15) ␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting…
..rakudo eff089: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $?ENCODING is not declared␤at /tmp/gTqd6l4hUQ:1␤»
GlitchMr $?ENCODING what?
moritz GlitchMr: didn't say it was implemented :-)
GlitchMr irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-12-23#i_4870398 17:09
Also, what is that ++ thing?
Which appears when new commit is made 17:10
diakopter it is karma
17:10 sivoais joined
diakopter it is a joke about some people's beliefs that there is a global measurement of goodwill for each person 17:11
GlitchMr I wonder how karma for Notepad increased just because of Notepad++ text editor :P?
jnthn You should see how much karma C gets thanks to C++ ;)
GlitchMr And how karma for C increased because of C++?
jnthn Well, after C++ arrived we all realized, "gee, comparatively, C wasn't bad!" 17:12
GlitchMr Read: C++ was worse?
jnthn imho :)
17:12 GlitchMr left, GlitchMr joined
GlitchMr ... 17:12
stupid keyboard shortcuts to part channel
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jnthn heh, I thought you'd got offended because I prefer C to C++ :P 17:13
GlitchMr Well, in C you can know what is:
a = b + c * d
But in C++, you know nothing.
17:13 brrt joined
GlitchMr Well, you know nothing too if this would be written in Python or Perl. 17:14
(except that Perl 5 wouldn't accept bareword before = sign)
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moritz re .bytes 17:15
lichtkind im currently reading the new camel
moritz I also think it's bad
because it belongs to Buf, not Str
or phrased differently
lichtkind it hink some bits from the glossary there might me "inspire" to some glossary phrases here
GlitchMr Converting to Buf is too magical 17:16
(but that could be fine for Perl)
moritz I don't believe in strings that coexists in different Unicode layers
GlitchMr In Node.js for example, you have to convert string into any encoding to get its length in bytes.
sergot karma C
aloha C has karma of 713.
GlitchMr It makes sense.
moritz IMHO it makes much more sense to have separate types for Buf, Codepoints and Graphs
GlitchMr karma Notepad
aloha Notepad has karma of 18.
tadzik ;)
GlitchMr But what about C-- language? 17:17
tadzik tricky bastards. Naming things just for karma!
GlitchMr karma C
aloha C has karma of 713.
GlitchMr ok...
moritz C--
karma C
aloha C has karma of 712.
tadzik maybe C-- is invented by night's watch just to balance C++ karma level
GlitchMr Except C-- is very lowlevel
sergot it seems that we often talk about C++ :)
moritz tadzik: tricky bastards, naming things just for karma of *another* language :-)
GlitchMr It's higher level than assembler, but lower than C
www.cminusminus.org/ 17:18
tadzik ;) 17:19
diakopter jnthn: maybe you saw in the backlog; compiling CORE was looping for me using the altnfa branch
jnthn diakopter: Oh...that's weird 17:20
I wonder if I pushed stuff wrong somehow...it looped for me in nom, but the couple of patches in altnfa got it a bit further. 17:21
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jnthn hmmm...it was second patch done in github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commits/altnfa that fixed the looping 17:21
diakopter wonders what other custom PMCs will be sped up a lot once pmichaud figures out how to get qrpa as fast as it was built-in to parrot 17:22
17:23 fgomez joined
jnthn away for a bit 17:25
diakopter oh. I didn't switch branches for rakudo 17:31
well, I'm not going to be very helpful with that, since I can't push to rakudo 17:34
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sorear TimToady: GlitchMr: niecza added nullary defaults last week. ;) 17:36
good * #perl6
GlitchMr Makes sense 17:37
sergot sorear: o/
17:38 Chillance joined
sorear TimToady: strange, I'm pretty sure ($x,$y).=reverse USED to work in niecza 17:38
GlitchMr: yes, + handling time values is NYI in Niecza 17:40
GlitchMr: iirc colomon has claimed that 17:41
GlitchMr Operator overloading?
sorear moritz: Why can't throws_like be used on an implementation without typed exceptions? 17:43
moritz sorear: because its main point is checking stuff that only typed exceptions have (type of the exception, return value from methods on the exception) 17:45
sorear: you can use it of course, but it doesn't make much sense
sorear moritz: ignore previous message, I have now seen the debate resolution 17:46
moritz sorear: if I identify the stable parts of the exceptions stuff, how willing are you to implement it in niecza?
sorear moritz: is the Rakudo core of typed exception support mature enough to steal en masse when I have tuits? 17:47
yes
afk
GlitchMr perl: print [\[+]] 2, 3, 4, 5 17:48
perl6: print [\[+]] 2, 3, 4, 5
p6eval rakudo 5d3610, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«25914» 17:49
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "2"␤ expecting operator, ":" or ","␤ at /tmp/aL0IymMBaM line 1, column 14␤»
17:49 spaceships left
GlitchMr niecza> [\[*]] 1 .. 10 17:49
1 2 6 24 120 720 5040 40320 362880 3628800
That looks awesome!
Except... I don't need second pair of []
dalek blets: 2da7d78 | GlitchMr++ | docs/tablet-4-operators.txt:
Fix metaprogramming link in chapter 4
 17:52
GlitchMr karma GlitchMr
aloha GlitchMr has karma of 2.
moritz sorear: you'll be able to steal the classes roles verbatim, but the throwing locations are scattered throughout the code base in rakudo 17:53
GlitchMr perl6: note "HUGE SUCCESS" 17:55
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&note"␤ at /tmp/vJVY9LUQvh line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
..rakudo 5d3610, niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«HUGE SUCCESS␤»
GlitchMr :)
17:55 Guest1193 left 18:04 crab2313 left 18:05 brrt left, crab2313 joined
diakopter moritz: do you expect to convert all the eval_dies_ok to throws_like? 18:21
(eventually)
18:22 brrt joined
diakopter and dies_ok 18:22
colomon sorear: I didn't so much "claim" it as say "Why didn't I do that months ago!" But I'm game to do it when I get the chance, if no one else does it first. 18:27
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mdmkolbe Historical/design question: Does p6 have a "_" operator? Was "_" ever considered for the "whatever operator" (parallels Haskell and Prologs "_" (except dual), also has "fill in the blank" mnemonic)? Is there a reason "*" was chosen instead? 18:32
jnthn I think long, long ago it was to be the string concatenation operator. 18:33
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jnthn But it was probably rather too ugly... :) 18:34
18:34 brrt left
mdmkolbe was the "whatever" operator conceived of before or after moving away from "_" as string concat? 18:37
jnthn After, I think. 18:39
I think it's * in the sense that * is often used as a wildcard.
geekosaur * is certainly a more Perlish wildcard 18:43
jnthn Yes, more people come to Perl having seen shells and SQL than come to Perl having seen Haskell and Prolog, I suspect. :) 18:45
geekosaur (I have a vague recollection that _ *was* briefly considered, but * has the Perlish connotation already from regexes)
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dalek p/altnfa: 1764d47 | jnthn++ | src/QRegex/NFA.nqp:
Ensure <.alpha> contributes to longest prefix.
 19:43
moritz
.oO( it would be mildly interesting to come up with a list of Unicode characters that were never considered for special meaning in Perl 6 in any way )
 19:49
diakopter moritz: I had a question above 19:50
pmichaud jnthn: ping
moritz diakopter: no
pmichaud jnthn: using the word "alpha" to key the nfa builder is almost certainly wrong. It needs to be tied to the alpha() method itself. 19:51
<alpha>, <alnum>, etc. are built-in methods, not reserved words. 19:52
s/built-in/default/
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, I don't see a good way to do that right off though. 19:53
pmichaud: I agree it should end up that way.
pmichaud I'm guessing some sort of init method that attaches an NFA to NQPCursorRole.alpha -- same as we do for the other compiled regexes 19:54
jnthn pmichaud: I'm struggling a bit with a few things here...
pmichaud: Having made <.alpha> be declarative, suddenly we're in big trouble with everything.
pmichaud: Because we don't implement longest literal prefix.
pmichaud jnthn: right 19:55
jnthn pmichaud: So it seems it's managing to see "proto " and then say "oh, term:sym<name> will do!"
pmichaud the nfa runner needs a way to keep track of longest literal prefix to break ties 19:56
where longest literal prefix is measured by exact character matches
as opposed to the charclass matches
at least, that was my guess at the approach to take at the time
jnthn pmichaud: Any suggestions exaclty how to carry that information? 19:57
pmichaud well, it has to be carried in the list of active states, I think
i.e., each state indicates how many literal characters it's seen
jnthn Yeah...so it'd need to be a foursome rather than a threesome.
pmichaud ummmmm, hmmm
(thinking)
states, not edges 19:58
I haven't thought it through yet
jnthn oh..
dalek blets: 7ba8dab | GlitchMr++ | docs/appendix-f-faq.txt:
Perl 6 is usable right now.
 20:00
pmichaud when traversing an edge representing a literal char, we increase the literal prefix count. if we traverse an edge that isn't a literal char, we either zero the count or leave it alone from then on
(not sure which)
anyway, something like that
jnthn We'd need to poision the count at at some point
\w* 'foo'
or 20:01
'a' \w* 'foo'
The 'foo' should never contribute.
pmichaud well, what about
'a' \w* [ 'foo' | 'food' ]
does it still not contribute? 20:02
GlitchMr It works like /a\w*(?:food|foo)/ in Perl 5 :).
jnthn It contributes to the declarative prefix.
(the 'foo' that is)
Just not to the longest literal prefix 20:03
GlitchMr Or food?
pmichaud okay
jnthn Well, that's my understanding...
:)
pmichaud so, when traversing a non-literal match, there's a flag or something that indicates "don't increase the literal length" after this point
jnthn We could use a signed.
And you negative it
pmichaud yes, a signed would do just fine
jnthn oh dang...no minus zero
pmichaud or, start negative and then make it positive when reaching the end 20:04
(easier to sort)
jnthn *nod*
pmichaud can also offset by one
jnthn OK. I probably won't try this tonight, but will give it a go tomorrow.
pmichaud to avoid the "no minus zero" effect
the count doesn't have to be exactly right -- it just has to compare correctly to counts made for the other paths
jnthn In the event you have time, feel free to task steal if you now exactly how you want it to look :)
Hmm, good point. 20:05
s/now/know
jnthn will ponder it some more too
pmichaud i.e., 'aa' has to sort before 'a', so counts of 3 and 2 work just as well as 2 and 1
jnthn Yes
Seems implementing this can't be avoided any longer.
pmichaud I'm still chasing down the dynpmc thingy. 20:06
jnthn OK. :)
I can prolly figure this out.
pmichaud when I build qrpa as a dynpmc in parrot, I get something as fast as rpa
jnthn Oh.
Wait, as a dynpmc *in Parrot*?
20:07 kaare_ left
jnthn Or as a built-in PMC in Parrot? 20:07
GlitchMr tablets.perl6.org/appendix-e-exciting.html
pmichaud in the parrot repo, a standalone dynpmc with no other p6 stuff attached
jnthn thought dynpmcs were dynpmcs...
GlitchMr I'm not sure, is lack of code after chomp($result = <>); intentional?
pmichaud as opposed to what I have in the qrpa branch, where the dynamic qrpa is part of the perl6_group
jnthn pmichaud: Bizzare.
pmichaud right
araujo hello
pmichaud here's the full story
jnthn Have you compared the compile/link flags?
pmichaud I'm comparing them now.
GlitchMr (oh wait, it's part of prompt())
I haven't noticed
lol
pmichaud my first version of qrpa was built as part of the perl6_group -- it's slower than rpa 20:08
I then added a qrpa class directly to parrot, it's same speed or faster than rpa
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araujo anybody knows a web page with the explanation of available modules/methods? 20:09
pmichaud I then made a qrpa class in parrot's src/dynpmc class and that lives in its own group. It's same speed or faster than rpa
nwc10 oh, jnthn just said what I was going to say - compile and link flags
diakopter pmichaud: I wonder how many other custom pmcs you can speed up once you figure this out
jnthn o/ nwc10
dalek blets: 63eee41 | GlitchMr++ | docs/appendix-e-exciting.txt:
<> doesn't always mean read from STDIN in Perl 5, so you cannot use it for prompts
pmichaud I then made a qrpa_group in the rakudo repo (containing just the qrpa class), it's slower than rpa 20:10
jnthn araujo: Built-in ones, or just modules generally? If the latter see modules.perl6.org/
pmichaud which means that something about building qrpa_group using rakudo's makefile or environment is causing it to be slower than when it's built from the src/dynpmc directory and parrot's makefile or environment
nwc10 have you tried copying the Parrot rpa code and renaming it as something, firstly in the parrot repository, and then in rakudo's? To see if the copy is slower in Rakudo's?
(will this tell you anything you don't already know?)
araujo jnthn, mm.. well, both .. thanks, I check that out
pmichaud nwc10: copying Parrot's rpa code is.... painful. 20:11
nwc10 OK. :-(
don't do that then :-)
pmichaud it could be done, but I'm fairly sure it must have something to do with compile or link options that rakudo is using
araujo jnthn, I was searching for built-in ones ...
pmichaud diakopter: yeah, I'm wondering if finding this fix will improve all of our dynpmcs and dynops
diakopter: I'm at least hoping that might be the case. :-)
moritz fwiw if parrot split some of its option variables for the makefiles, it's likely that we've missed it 20:12
pmichaud afk a moment 20:13
dalek blets: 6ce7dc6 | GlitchMr++ | docs/appendix-d-delta.txt:
`=` for checking equation is mistake, `==` should be used.
 20:14
sorear jnthn: fwiw, niecza does literal length sorting statically 20:15
jnthn sorear: Statically?
sorear: I think I need more precision...when exactly does it do it?
20:16 alvis left
jnthn At the point the DFA is constructed? 20:16
sorear Yes
jnthn OK
sorear Given (<a> | <b> | <c>)
a, b, and c's NFA's are asked for their literal length, and things are permuted accordingly
At NFA execution time, the all tiebreakers have been folded into "the first equally long alternative wins" 20:17
GlitchMr perl: print '1' cmp 2
perl6: print '1' cmp 2
lol
p6eval rakudo 5d3610: OUTPUT«Increase»
..pugs: OUTPUT«-1»
..niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«Decrease»
GlitchMr I still do it
20:19 alvis joined
jnthn sorear: Interesting. I'm a little worried that the current NFA executer may accidentally disorder things due to the way it handles epsilon edges. 20:20
oh, but that...shouldn't be an issue.
Wait, can't this be done by associating these tie-breaks with the fate? 20:21
jnthn kinda suspects so 20:22
sorear++
Thanks for help.
I think I see a way to do this now.
pmichaud 20:16 <sorear> a, b, and c's NFA's are asked for their literal length, and things are permuted accordingly 20:23
I'm a little confused by this statement. What if one of them has multiple literal lengths?
jnthn Oh.
pmichaud: You thinking "longest applicable literal length"? 20:24
Like, it's just just about having the longest literal prefix, it has to have been on the match path?
s/just just/not just/ 20:25
Hm. That shoots down what I was pondering... :)
pmichaud it has to be the longest literal prefix on the match path chosen
jnthn Right.
pmichaud (there can be more than one match path)
jnthn *nod*
Suddenly it seems less static... 20:26
sorear The understanding that I had was that if it could depend on match paths, it wasn't a literal prefix.
token foo { abc | def } # foo has a literal length of 0 any way it matches
moritz s/0/3/ ?
sorear no, 0
moritz uhm, why? 20:27
abc and def both look pretty literally to me
sorear but the alternation destroys the literalism
diakopter token bar { ab | abc } # has a literal prefix length of 2
jnthn diakopter: I don't think any of us are arguing quite for that... 20:28
sorear diakopter: not in niecza or std, but if you left-factor it to token bar { ab c? } then yes
diakopter ah, sorry; /me is quiet again :)
jnthn iiuc, sorear is saying "the token has to start with a literal string, nothing fancier"
20:29 mtk left
nwc10 assumes it's things like the perl6 equivalent of /(a|w+)ab/ 20:29
or maybe /a(aa|\w+)ab/
jnthn And Pm and I understood it more as "you run the NFA and see what point the match path does something non-literal"
pmichaud token a { abc | def }
token b { ghi } 20:30
<a> <b> { say 'one' } | ab \w+ { say 'two'} /
nwc10 where you might initially be able to take both sides of the alternation, but a later match failure ends up with ony one side being valid
pmichaud I would think that 'abcghi' would result in 'one' and not 'two'
20:30 GlitchMr left
pmichaud / <a> <b> { say 'one' } | ab \w+ { say 'two'} / 20:30
sorear jnthn: attaching any kind of data to NFA match paths is a good way to turn a constant time algorithm into an exponential time algorithm.
jnthn: I am very very reluctant to do anything of the sort. 20:31
pmichaud i.e., the literal match of <a> against 'abc' means it's longer than the 'ab' match of the second half
jnthn sorear: I can't see how adding what Pm and I discussed to QRegex's NFA runner would do anything of the sort.
pmichaud which would mean that the literal match length of <a> isn't zero. 20:32
sorear jnthn: How do you decide whether a literal edge is on the "eventual match path"?
jnthn pmichaud: Well, the whole <a> <b> would both count iiuc
moritz pmichaud: when I compile dynpmcs with parrot's and rakudo's Makefile, sort the options and throw away all of the include paths and make a diff, there are only three differing lines (more)
pmichaud jnthn: right, I agree. My point is that 'abc' | 'def' can't have a literal length of zero
moritz pmichaud: rakudo has -DDISABLE_GC_DEBUG=1 and -DNDEBUG
pmichaud: parrot has -g 20:33
pmichaud moritz: noted
moritz oh, but I forgot to pass --optimize to parrot's configure.pl
so maybe the interesting part got omitted
pmichaud: I'll try again :-)
pmichaud yes, you have to have --optimize for the Parrot Configure.pl. Otherwise everything is slow slow slow
nwc10 pmichaud is probably in the easiest position to go for the real brute force - eyeball compare the generated assembly for the PMC code in Parrot, vs in Rakudo 20:34
sorear pmichaud: (abcghi) I agree this behavior is less than ideal, but it is a cost I am willing to bear to avoid an exponential blowup in the state space. 20:35
pmichaud nwc10: I hadn't gotten to that stage yet. I'm going to look at compile options first. If I can't get that to illustrate the difference, I'm going to set up easy-to-build branches of both parrot and rakudo with the pieces I've done and let people hack on it (eyeballs)
jnthn sorear: With a parallel NFA, all of the paths are being explored in parallel; if you're propagating the information as you follow the states then it that is tracing the match path.
s/it that/that/ 20:36
sorear jnthn: parallel NFAs are only efficient because identical states can be coalesced
pmichaud sorear: I'm more concerned with what the specification requires than what's "ideal" :-)
if the specification says that 'abc' | 'def' doesn't contribute to longest literal match, that's fine with me. :)
jnthn Right, but the spec doesn't, so far as I can see. 20:37
pmichaud but that's not the way I've understood it to date.
besides, a protoregex is really just a form of alternation, and clearly *it* ought to have some contribution to longest literal match, iiuc
sorear pmichaud: I would rather change the specification than force users to deal with slow compilers forever.
pmichaud: I am looking forward to seeing the sub-exponential literal algorithm that jnthn++ claims to have. 20:38
diakopter Longest literal prefix: food\w* beats foo\w* by 1 position
jnthn sorear: I only claimed that the addition would not change the order of the algorithm that is presently being used.
sorear in niecza, protoegexes do not contribute to literal prefixes. 20:39
pmichaud sorear: whatever TimToady++ declares to be the correct answer, I'm going to go with that. 20:40
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sorear Yes. 20:40
diakopter irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-06-16#i_2442589
pmichaud if we declare that 'abc' [ 'def' | 'de' ] always has a longest literal prefix of 3 and not (5|6), then let's spec it and go that way. 20:41
diakopter sorearwhat about ab[d|e] ?
04:18TimToadythat's 2
jnthn How does <term> know to pick the multi-declarator parse path for 'proto' rather than term:sym<name>?
sorear: ^
moritz pmichaud: erm yes, the -O2 doesn't get propagated to rakudo's Makefile
jnthn sorear: Is it just the "last declaration" rule?
pmichaud moritz: okay, that's likely it. moritz++ 20:42
moritz and the reason is pretty simple
jnthn er, I mean, earliest declaration wins...
pmichaud based on the log that diakopter++ posts, abc | def is indeed prefix zero
sorear token term:multi_declarator { <?before 'multi'|'proto'|'only'> <multi_declarator> }
pmichaud i.e., doesn't contribute to longest literal match. That might make things simpler
sorear oh,hmm
moritz it doesn't appear in any variable in the Makefile
pmichaud where does it appear in Parrot's makefile, ooc? 20:43
moritz parrot's makefile simply adds an -O2 to everything
pmichaud: in all rules separately
pmichaud ...Configure.pl adds it directly? ugh
it must be in the template somewhere
sorear jnthn: as far as I can tell it IS just the last-declaration rule o.O will have to ask TimToadty
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jnthn sorear: Well, my whole understanding of "longest literal prefix" came from "this must be why we get it wrong in Rakudo"... :) 20:44
I...really do not want to believe that one is declaration order.
pmichaud moritz: aha, here it is!
.c$(O) : # suffix rule (limited support) $(CC) $(CFLAGS) @optimize@ $(CC_WARN) -I$(@D) -Isrc/ @cc_o_out@$@ -c $<
moritz oh, @optimize@ 20:45
pmichaud I just need to add @optimize@ to Rakudo's Makefile.in, I bet.
moritz silly me, I was looking in the generated Makefile, not in Makefile.in
and *there* it's expanded already
pmichaud I'm surprised they didn't put it into $(CFLAGS)
anyway
moritz though $(CFLAGS) isn't expanded in there
pmichaud trying that now 20:46
that also explains why I wasn't getting -g on the dynpmcs either 20:48
pmichaud@kiwi:~/p6/rakudo-qrpa$ install/bin/parrot_config optimize
-O2 -g
seems weird to have "-g" in the "optimize" flag, though. :-P
jnthn What's -g? :)
pmichaud include debugging symbols for gdb
jnthn hah :)
pmichaud -g Produce debugging information in the operating system's native 20:49
format (stabs, COFF, XCOFF, or DWARF 2). GDB can work with this
debugging information.
jnthn In MSVC there's a funny situation where you can't have a debugging symbols AND optimize the build in certain ways.
Maybe that's why they are grouped together.
nwc10 HP-UX on PA RISC turns out to be even *more* fun
pmichaud GCC allows you to use -g with -O.
nwc10 64 bit is fine
pmichaud Nevertheless it proves possible to debug optimized output. This
makes it reasonable to use the optimizer for programs that might
have bugs.
nwc10 32 bit, you can use -O and -g with C code 20:50
but *not* with pre-processed C code
crab2313 should all tests in parrot get passed? except the skipped.
benabik crab2313: Yes, a test in parrot should pass or be TODOed 20:51
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crab2313 benabik: but there are two tests on my machine didn't pass. 20:52
pmichaud pmichaud@kiwi:~/p6/rakudo-qrpa$ install/bin/parrot z2.pir rpa[$I0] = 0.656108856201172
qrpa[$I0] = 0.585737943649292
\o/ 20:53
moritz++
moritz \o/
pmichaud moritz++
nwc10 win!
jnthn Whoa!
We even *beat* Parrot's rpa
pmichaud++
pmichaud could be a big win, since all of the nqp+rakudo C code has apparently been compiled unoptimized
that includes 6model
diakopter maybe that 1 less pos comparison makes a difference
jnthn pmichaud: Wait...the NQP code too?!
benabik crab2313: Then there may be a bug. Can you nopaste your platform and the failures? 20:54
pmichaud unless we included the @optimize@ flag into the Makefile
20:54 birdwindupbird left
pmichaud which I doubt, since I stole the Makefile from Rakudo 20:54
dalek p: 23b8c3e | moritz++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
[build] include @optimize@ in CCFLAGS
pmichaud patches coming up
jnthn pmichaud: Wow :)
Er, patch come up ;)
pmichaud oh, looks like moritz++ is beating me to it
moritz I can patch rakudo too, just want to wait for the build to finish to be sure 20:56
pmichaud moritz: I'll let you make the patches, yes. 20:57
nwc10 and then there will be comparison benchmarks?
pmichaud sure, we can compare against 2012.05 20:58
or against whatever was in place this morning
nwc10 either is interesting. actually, both. :-)
and a pony.
crab2313 benabik: gist.github.com/2859940 20:59
sorear colomon: I want a second opinion before closing #129 NOTABUG
dalek kudo/nom: 8b4208b | moritz++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
[build] reuse @optimize@ flags from parrot
 21:00
kudo/nom: acf9038 | moritz++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
bump to an optimize NQP revision
benabik crab2313: Those are both IPv6 tests. Perhaps that is not enabled in your kernel? 21:01
moritz note that parrot also uses @optimize@ in the linker flags
pmichaud I didn't find that 21:02
moritz LD_SHARE_FLAGS = -shared -O2 -L/usr/local/lib -fstack-protector -fPIC
pmichaud ah, that's already in @ld_share_flags@ then
moritz ok 21:03
crab2313 benabik: Yes, IPv6 is disabled in my kernel.
pmichaud config/gen/makefiles/root.in:129:LD_SHARE_FLAGS = @ld_share_flags@
benabik crab2313: Then those are expected failures, and parrot should run just fine modulo any attempts to use IPv6
pmichaud ack -a '@optimize@' only reports the config/gen/makefiles/root.in line 21:04
afk for a bit
crab2313 benabik: Thanks.
moritz wonders why config/gen/ contains non-generated files
benabik crab2313: No problem. :-) If you need any further help, I tend to be here and there's #parrot on irc.perl.org
diakopter sees how long it takes rakudo's setting to compile with the new optimize 21:06
pmichaud parrot's config/gen/ contains the sources for generating things, not the things generated 21:07
afk for a bit for real this time
colomon sorear: NOTABUG was my first response. But I haven't sat down and thought on it again, I'm just going on vague memories from implementing it. 21:09
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diakopter yeah, that speeds up the CORE compilation 6% 21:14
jnthn Not Bad. 21:15
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diakopter ymmv 21:16
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crab2313 oh, I think it is 75% 21:25
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araujo what is the '&code' parameter type?? isn't that something like: { $_+ $_} ? 21:32
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jnthn & just means "Callable" 21:33
&code is equivalent to Callable $code in terms of what it accepts
However, there's another benefit to writing &code
You can call the thing with code(...) syntax
araujo mm I see 21:35
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lichtkind good night 22:02
22:02 lichtkind left
pmichaud looks like I saved 13 seconds (304 - 291) in the spectest after @optimize@ 22:15
jnthn \o/ 22:16
pmichaud CORE.setting goes from 146.4 sec to 137.5 (6.1%) 22:17
so, nothing hugely spectacular but still a nice win
we should get more win for list-related things after the other changes I have planned :)
jnthn \o/ 22:18
jnthn hopes we can get more parsing win soon too
pmichaud I'll also look at the $!target stuff soon 22:19
jnthn yay
I'll continue my alternation/LTM efforts tomorrow :)
My brane can only take so long at that stuff in one sitting :)
diakopter jnthn, the mental nfa runner 22:20
pmichaud did you catch the log that diakopter pointed out earlier? Based on that, I read that each regex has exactly one longest literal match
jnthn Yeah, it still bothers me I started to be able to run NFAs in my head by reading the sequences of digits. :P
pmichaud as sorear++ described
jnthn pmichaud: Yes, the key line in it was when TimToady++ very clearly indicated he did not want it to be data driven.
pmichaud okay, good.
as long as we're all in agreement :)
afk, car repair 22:21
TimToady is not sure he agrees with himself...
jnthn uh-oh :P
TimToady but will think about it s'more
zby_home nopaste.snit.ch/143054 - I am trying to have a class method here
the one without parameters seems to work
but the other one taking a hash does not
22:22 icwiener left
tadzik zby_home: well, you're not passing it a hash 22:22
Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2
zby_home true - in my code I was actually calling it in this way: ::P.a( a => 'a' ); 22:23
but this results in the same error
tadzik I guess a => 'a' results in a named parameter 22:24
zby_home ach
sorry
tadzik you either need to pass a hash explicitely { a => 'a' }, or declare a slurpy hash in the param list
sub foo (*%slurpy) { say %slurpy.perl }; foo(bar => 'baz')
rn: sub foo (*%slurpy) { say %slurpy.perl }; foo(bar => 'baz')
p6eval rakudo acf903: OUTPUT«("bar" => "baz").hash␤»
..niecza v18-2-gea3d97a: OUTPUT«{"bar" => "baz"}.hash␤»
tadzik r: sub foo (%hash) { say %hash.perl }; foo({bar => 'baz'}) 22:25
p6eval rakudo acf903: OUTPUT«("bar" => "baz").hash␤»
tadzik that should do it
TimToady I think I'm okay with ignoring [a|b] for longest literal, since you could write it as separate rules if you want the other thing, and the idea is to recognize specific literal tokens, not tricksy patterns that try to do too much 22:28
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sorear TimToady: in STD, how does the term know to parse 'proto ...' using term:declarator? 22:29
jnthn TimToady: proto token foo { * }; token foo:sym<bar> { <sym> } # does <sym> count as longest literal when dispatching to <foo>?
sorear TimToady: jnthn and I are worried that it might only be declaration order 22:30
jnthn I don't mean when calculating a longest literal for another thing that calls <foo>. I mean the actual <foo> dispatch itself.
Yes, also what sorear++ asked :)
TimToady <sym> should be considered literal, methinks
jnthn That's what got me thinking longest literal was transitive. 22:31
sorear jnthn: I have been operating under the assumption that the answer to that is yes
jnthn Or...something.
TimToady it's usually the literal token, so yes
jnthn Well, it desugars to a literal; once anything that cares gets its hands on it the desugaring from <sym> to a literal woulda happened. In Rakudo at least. 22:32
sorear: "yes" is the answering I'm hoping for too
sorear the STD-relevant case is token term:id { \w+ }; token term:declarator { <declarator> }; token declarator { ['only'|'multi'|'proto'] }
declarator, in the niecza/new-STD model, has a prefix length of 0 22:33
so there's no prefix reason to prefer term:id over term:declarator of vice versa
*or vice
jnthn *literal* prefix, yes?
sorear yes, literal prefix
TimToady that might have been written when STD was doing it the other way
jnthn Well, declarator is only one such example
TimToady *all* of STD was written when it was the other way :) 22:34
jnthn We don't tie-break very accurately on declaration order at the moment. And so as soon as I fixed <ident> to do declarative prefix properly...boom, loads of stuff ended up in term:sym<name>. 22:35
(In Rakudo, that is.)
TimToady or maybe there's some distinction between an alternation that occurs first vs one that occurs after other literal charas
but STD would certainly have treated those as three separate fates with literal lengtsh of 4 or 5 22:36
the situation of trying to parse several keywords with the same code is a little different than a keywords that goes all dendritic halfway through 22:38
or to put it a different way, an alternation that starts a token rule could be hoisted up into the outer alternation for purposes of LTM, but not alternations that occur further on in the match 22:41
sergot good night ! o/ 22:42
22:42 sergot left
tadzik good knight sergot 22:42
TimToady otherwise we're in the situation that literal longest tokens must *always* be alternated under a proto, which seems a bit non-Perly 22:43
I think this approach is still subject to static analysis, while preserving a bit more Least Astonishment for things like ['only'|'multi'|'proto'] 22:45
so I guess I don't entirely agree with myself after all 22:46
jnthn Well, the other thing is 22:47
token term:package_declarator { <package_declarator> }
That probably also wants us to hoist literal prefixes.
TimToady I kinda think it's what people will expect when the alternation is the first thing 22:48
jnthn Yeah but...then don't you lose the staticness of it? 22:49
TimToady and I also have the suspicion that if we have to rely on declaration order, the terrorists will have won
jnthn Because which longest literal prefix matches is data-dependant...
I think that's the underlying tension here. 22:50
TimToady not really, you just have n literals that happen to map to the same rule
jnthn So...that rules' longest literal prefix is just the @all_possible_literal_prefixes.max(*.char) ? 22:51
TimToady as long as we stay away from quantifiers and downstream alternations, there's no exponential blowup
jnthn Ah...so...limitedly data dependent somehow?
TimToady only, multi, and proto participate as three separate LTMs, with 4, 5, and 5 length 22:52
at the point a new language is derived and the new lexer is generated, those are effectively static
should probably allow an initial <?before 'only'|'multi'|'proto'> as a form of initial [] too 22:53
I think we can have our cake and eat it too, mostly, without too much pain, as long as we limit it to initial alternations 22:55
either that or we need some kind syntactic relief via <sym> for matching multiple keywords 22:56
but the initial alternation seems amenable to analysis, and we already have that syntax
it's really no different from transitive alternation if the keywords is matched by a sub-proto 22:58
jnthn *nod*
TimToady *are
this feels rightest to me at the moment
so now I've probably made everyone unhappy :) 22:59
pmichaud I'm not unhappy, but perhaps that's because I haven't read the backscroll yet :-) 23:00
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pmichaud (I'm actually certain that reading bs won't change my level of happiness.) 23:02
TimToady pictures pmichaud++ reading bounded serialization :) 23:03
diakopter pictured something else
pmichaud lately I think there's just too much bs on #perl6 :)
TimToady a college degree?
jnthn
.oO( reading src/6model/serialization.c could be described that way... )
sorear TimToady: I think that idea can be made to work 23:04
TimToady I agree that calulating the cross-product of downstream branches is potentially explosive, which I actually ran into several times in early STD development... 23:05
*calc
this seems like about the right balance of torment for the implementors vs the users 23:06
pmichaud
.oO( ... there's been a balance? )
jnthn
.oO( what be this new policy? )
TimToady that I'll actually tell you the places where we choose to also torment the users, instead of just Not Mentioning It? 23:07
jnthn :)
TimToady usually we call that DIHWIDT 23:08
tadzik huh 23:09
TimToady which means "We can't be bothered to tell you how stupid you, the user, are." 23:10
tadzik I get ===SORRY!=== No object at index 66 when running make test on precompiled WebNano6
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jnthn :/ 23:10
tadzik but when I added a few BEGIN say "foo"; around, it started working
jnthn tadzik: Around...what?
tadzik seems that non-deterministic compilation strikes again in this particular case
jnthn In the thing doing the sue statement?
*use
Or in the module being pre-compiled? 23:11
tadzik oh, it was just a coincidence
jnthn: I've been adding those around use statements
but there's no correlation, not much
it's mostly random-ish
jnthn Bother.
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jnthn oh, dang 23:21
er, ww
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itz #perl6++ # 10 years late ok but it will kick ruby and java's arses 23:45
timotimo ruby and java will not be around any more 23:46
gfldex i'm quite sure oracle will be able to sue you over copyrighted java patents 23:49
pmichaud I'm sure they'll be able to lose, also. :-)
jnthn was most happy with the copyright judgement 23:50
pmichaud same here
jnthn I wish it had been a slightly broader opinion, but still...it was very well written. 23:51
itz the coder judge seemed to help!
jnthn Yeah!
pmichaud the judge was smart to keep the opinion narrow 23:52
jnthn pmichaud: More likely to stand on appeal?
pmichaud less invitation to appeal
jnthn suspects Oracle will appeal anyway
pmichaud oh yes, oracle says they're going to appeal
jnthn: obtw, I'm going ahead and putting qrpa in to nqp now 23:53
*into
jnthn Do the appeals court get to say whether they even care to hear an appeal? Or are they obligated to hear it?
pmichaud appeals court can deny appeal, yes. 23:54
jnthn I know the supreme can just say "no" and let it stand.
Ah. So it may be that it's stopped right there.
Unless Oracle really want to go all the way to the supreme court...
pmichaud I'm expecting they'll hear an appeal, but that oracle will lose on appeal also.
diakopter was it a federal or state case?
pmichaud I think the supreme court will be unlikely to hear any appeal on this one.
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itz sun++ # letting the GPL genii out of the bottle 23:55
pmichaud diakopter: federal court
copyright is always in federal court
itz oracle-- # bad larry 23:56
jnthn Are patents always federal also?
itz perl++ # good larry
pmichaud jnthn: I don't know about patents.... it would make sense, though.
jnthn +1 on QRPA in nqp
diakopter um. 23:57
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diakopter CORE parse in 78 seconds on windows; almost twice as fast as in the linux vm on the same machine. very unexpected. 23:58
jnthn huh...
That's odd.
diakopter jnthn: how long does the first stage of CORE take on yours 23:59
jnthn 60 seconds
diakopter nice
jnthn Probably a bit less now
I didn't time it since the optimize stuff

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