»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
TimToady the basic problem is that P5 is too closely attached to its stack model; this is also the problem with XS 00:08
well, one of the problems
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cognominal if everything could be implemented using the perl5 engine, there would be no point inventing/using another engine for Perl 6. 00:15
mhasch sjn: ... and funnily stated, too: "line noise visually encapsulated into a small pill that's easy to swallow"
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cognominal but hard to digest? 00:16
mhasch probably easily enough digested, but lacking juice :-) 00:17
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TimToady one of those "unneeded dietary supplements" kind of things 00:23
mostly harmless
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[Coke] grabs the latest NQP which is QAST enabled. 00:55
nqp docs/bootstrapping.pod is for nqp-rx, not npq. 00:56
pmichaud indeed. 00:57
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[Coke] is docs/QASTMAP killable? 01:01
pmichaud probably need to ask jnthn++ for that
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[Coke] if I'm using QAST, is there a "use" statement I need to include 01:23
?
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[Coke] pmichaud: feather.perl6.nl/~coke/foo.nqp 01:27
nqp foo.nqp -e "eek"
Unable to obtain ast from NQPMatch
if I add "make" as i suspect is needed, I get a NPMCA 01:30
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[Coke] I assume I need to wrap it in QAST::Stmts somehow. 01:41
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sirrobert How can I delete a method from a class at runtime? (opposite of .^add_method) 02:39
I tried del_method delete_method rem_method remove_method
really I want to *replace* a method, but I can't use add_method if one already exists 02:40
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sorear as far as I know, you can't 02:48
the default class system takes advantage of the append-only nature of classes for optimization
sirrobert ok, hmmm 02:49
I am trying to add to a grammar during runtime
sorear if you want to radically change the accepted methods at runtime you probably should be using a fallback instead
sirrobert know of another way I can do that?
sorear why do you need to delete methods to add to a grammar?
sirrobert (that is, I can add_method to add a new token... but I need to be able to rewrite TOP to recognize the new token
or, rewrite some token, anyway
benabik Why not just use inheritance?
sirrobert hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 02:50
(trying to think of how that would be structured in this context)
so every time a new rule is added (maybe a few dozen times), just create a new grammar, inherit from the current "head" grammar
sorear sirrobert: 1. STD uses inheritance to dynamically alter the grammar 2. this is what protoregexes are for!
benabik sorear++
sirrobert hmmmmmm protoregexes...
I'm out of my depth on this. I want to be in my depth on it by Wednesday =) 02:51
any example code I can read about that?
mostly I just need syntax help
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sirrobert reading an advent calendar entry about ... protoregexes, maybe? =) 02:52
colomon sirrobert: maybe. :) 02:53
sirrobert: github.com/perl6/std/blob/master/STD.pm6 has examples, but the advent calendar might be a more sensible place to start.
(as std is crazy complex)
sirrobert colomon: heh ok 02:54
bookmarking it though
p6 has a learning curve similar to vim's 02:55
that's not a bad thing, but it's a thing =)
now that I'm good at vim, I'm very good at it... but when I wasn't ... I wasn't
colomon sirrobert: rumor had it you're doing p6 stuff for $work, can you talk about it? 02:56
sirrobert a bit =)
anything in particular you want to know
(and yes, I am)
colomon Just the basics, all I know I've already said, and I'm curious.
sirrobert well,
we started a company a bit over a year ago 02:57
colomon is planning on starting a p6 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_10303-21 parser soon for $work, biggest hurdle at the moment is figuring out what to name the github repo / p6 module.
sirrobert (we = me and my CTO/co-founder)
we did R&D for a year (had a govt grant)
colomon oo, nice
sirrobert my partner had done a PhD dissertation and got his degree for the invention we're commercializing 02:58
but it was written in crazy shell scripts and stuff... a university research environment
so we ported it to ruby
(for the grant), and made it all conceptually solid and what not
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sirrobert then, after doing some marketing research (meaning talking to prospective customers and such) 02:59
we ... re-wrote everything from the ground up
more powerful, broader concept. bigger platform (in the "Big Data" space)
"advanced analytics" type stuff
anyway
now we're using a LISP and P6
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colomon quite a combination! 03:00
sirrobert we're having fun =)
it was cool though that our LOC dropped amazingly
like ...
50%+ reduction
colomon that's always nice!
sirrobert heh nod 03:01
it turns out the LISP we're using is great for certain stuff
but it's expressiveness is ...
well, let me put it this way
(sorry for the sketchy lack of details... more forthcoming, but I have to be a little secretive right now... we're in preliminary sales =)
So, LISP trades semantic complexity for syntactic simplicity 03:02
I realized that P6 does the reverse
so when we wanted to represent real-world concepts (in a way that's accessible to end users), P6 is GREAT for modelling that 03:03
LISP is great for modeling more "idealized" concepts
(no one wants a LISP API)
sorear colomon: ISO-10303-21::Parser
sirrobert anyway, I've really had almost no trouble with P6
sorear colomon: don't worry too much about squatting on valuable namespace, we have :auth<cpan:COLOMON> for that 03:04
sirrobert the hardest thing is the lack of docs... there's so much syntax
colomon sirrobert++
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colomon sorear: that's a very... dry name. 03:04
sirrobert oh, and DBI/ORM would be nice ;)
but really docs. We can write a DBI or ORM easily, if we can figure out what features are currently available. 03:05
colomon sorear: the other is my overall idea is a small set of ISO-10303-21 (ugh) tools, not just a parser.
sirrobert colomon: anyway, I'm happy to tell you more if you have any particular questions 03:06
colomon *other... thing? ... I think I meant to say.
sirrobert if I can =)
colomon sirrobert: nah, I'll let you get back to work. But I'm very glad you're doing that, and wish you the best of luck.
sirrobert thanks =)
colomon sorear: btw, I'm anticipating the ISO-10303-21 might be good for profiling ... I have huge ISO-10303-21 files to throw at the parser. Though I suppose they're most not things I can redistribute. 03:07
afk # bedtime 03:08
cognominal p6: say 'a,a' ~~ / 'a' % ',' / 03:15
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix / instead␤at /tmp/rq1q_9CORF:1␤»
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter % (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/NAW2KKBFn7 line 1:␤------> say 'a,a' ~~ / 'a' %⏏ ',' /␤␤Unable to parse regex; couldn't find final '/' at /tmp/NAW2KKBFn7 li…
cognominal hum
p6: say 'a,a' ~~ / 'a' %* ',' / 03:23
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter % (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/dmUV9rd1NG line 1:␤------> say 'a,a' ~~ / 'a' %⏏* ',' /␤␤Unable to parse regex; couldn't find final '/' at /tmp/dmUV9rd1NG l…
..rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix / instead␤at /tmp/x1Q9PBGP0c:1␤»
cognominal p6: say 'a,a' ~~ / 'a'* % ',' /
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(3) text(a,a) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤» 03:24
..rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«｢a,a｣␤␤»
sorear o/ cognominal
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Circlepuller std: 0.say; 04:02
p6eval std 2f65afc: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 40m␤»
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Circlepuller std: -4.abs.Str.say; 04:02
p6eval std 2f65afc: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
Circlepuller lol
rakudo: <A B C>.length.say; 04:04
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«No such method 'length' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤ in block at /tmp/RZyHpFd069:1␤␤»
Circlepuller o
rakudo: <A B C>.*.say; 04:05
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/tpPoiReW5f:1␤»
Circlepuller interesting
sorear o/ Circlepuller, I have not yet said hi to you 04:06
Circlepuller 'ello
sorear std: say "ok 00:00 41m"
p6eval std 2f65afc: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
sorear Circlepuller: what are you trying to do? 04:07
Circlepuller just toy around 04:08
sorear r: <A B C>>>.say 04:09
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«C␤A␤B␤»
sorear b: <A B C>>>.say
p6eval b 922500: OUTPUT«A␤B␤C␤»
sorear b: <A B C>>>.say
p6eval b 922500: OUTPUT«A␤B␤C␤»
sorear pugs: <A B C>>>.say
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«B␤C␤A␤»
sorear pugs: <A B C>>>.say
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«B␤C␤A␤»
sorear pugs: <A B C>>>.say
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«B␤C␤A␤»
sorear pugs: <A B C>>>.say
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«B␤C␤A␤»
sorear wasn't there a vesion that did it randomly?
Circlepuller r: <A B A B B C C C>.uniq.say; 04:11
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«A B C␤»
Circlepuller r: <A B A B B C C C>.uniq>>.say;
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«C␤A␤B␤»
Circlepuller r: <A B A B B C C C>.uniq>>>>.say;
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing << or >>␤at /tmp/C2lchSKmsP:1␤»
Circlepuller interesting
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moritz \o 05:30
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sorear is A.A.Alexeev a #perl6er? 05:56
felher good morning #perl6 :) 05:58
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sorear good morning felher 06:02
masak morning, #perl6 06:04
sorear o/ masak !
dalek osystem: 6ca5f0c | (Alexandr A Alexeev)++ | META.list:
added XML::Parser::Tiny
 06:06
osystem: 708e6f5 | GlitchMr++ | META.list:
Merge pull request #9 from afiskon/patch-1

added XML::Parser::Tiny
felher o/ masak :) 06:07
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tadzik g'morning 06:17
masak tadziku! \o/ 06:18
sorear tadzik!!!!!
tadzik masak! sorear! \o/ 06:24
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masak rn: say (class {}).^name 07:49
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«ANON␤»
..rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«<anon>␤»
masak rn: say (class {}) === (class {})
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«False␤»
..rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak o.O
Rakudo! really, "True"?
r: say (class { has $.x }) === (class {}) 07:50
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak r: say (class { method foo {} }) === (class {})
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak r: say Rat === (class {})
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak submits rakudobug 07:51
Circlepuller r: "\x032,4TEST".say 07:53
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«2,4TEST␤»
Circlepuller aww
r: "\aTEST".say
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized backslash sequence: '\a' at line 2, near "TEST\".say"␤»
Circlepuller r: printf "%c", <7 ''> 07:55
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«»
Circlepuller r: printf "%c", <7 ''>
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«»
Circlepuller heh
r: printf "%c", <7 ''>
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«»
masak Circlepuller: arguments like <7 ''> don't flatten in Perl 6. 07:58
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Circlepuller interesting 07:59
still works
FROGGS what is <7 '' > suppose to mean? 08:00
tadzik r: <7 '' >.perl.say
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«("7", "''")␤»
tadzik this :)
FROGGS ya
masak n: say <7 ''>.perl
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«(val("7"), "''")␤»
masak Niecza gets closer, though.
n: say val("7").^name 08:01
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«IntStr␤»
FROGGS its sometimes hard to recognize this stuff... but I guess I get used to it some day ;o)
masak you will :)
Timbus whats the main reason for val's behaviour? like keeping whitespace around a number 08:02
is there a case where you want.. that? i mean ive written a modest bit of perl and never wanted that 08:03
masak Timbus: not sure what you mean.
Timbus: why do you put in whitespace in the argument to val() in the first place? :)
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Timbus i belieeb that it's mentioned explicitly in the spec 08:04
masak "In any case, use of such an intuited value as a string will reproduce the original string including any leading or trailing whitespace" 08:05
you belieeb correctly.
it seems to be a case of retaining the original string as-is.
like, val() provides you with two views of the object: the intended (often numeric) value, and the original string. 08:06
Timbus im just wondering if this is more an internal feature
better question: when do you use val 08:07
that might be my real question 08:08
masak ah.
it was created due to a need for such an internal feature, yes.
one use you've already seen: <1 2 3> turns into val("1") etc. 08:09
the other use is in MAIN argument parsing.
Timbus ooh that one makes sense
masak yes, because everything comes in as strings, but not everything is intended as strings. 08:11
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tadzik masak: did you see feather.perl6.nl/~sergot/modules/? 08:26
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jnthn tadzik: ooh :) 08:29
tadzik jnthn: did you see feather.perl6.nl/~sergot/modules/? {_
:)
it's the "Have you seen this dog" situation
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masak tadzik: I saw it. it's nice. 08:33
need real icons instead of the solid-color circles. I might be able to contribute.
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tadzik yeah, the solid circles are LTA 08:34
jnthn I didn't mind the circles fwiw :)
FROGGS__ I like the github icon font very much....
maybe this is an option too?
tadzik instead of circles? :) 08:35
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FROGGS__ making a font having all symbols and icons for the site included 08:36
its scalable, so it looks pretty when you zoom in
tadzik hm 08:37
no idea if we have manpower for that
masak FROGGS__: fortawesome.github.com/Font-Awesome/ 08:38
I used that in one of my YAPC talks.
FROGGS__ its cool, isnt it? 08:39
I like it when it changes color like the text nearby when hovering over a link
masak jnthn: no, the circles don't blend in. something a little more shibui is needed there.
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jnthn Well, they're not a prettiness optimum, but given the page without them or the page with them, I'd take the extra information even if it's not as pretty as we'd like just yet :) 08:49
FROGGS__ using that font-awesome shouldnt be that hard... 08:50
its repo is on github, right? I can send a pull request these days 08:51
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tadzik yes 08:59
sergot/modules.perl6.org I think
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masak sirrobert: protoregexes. for a long time, I thought they were this fairly magical thing in grammars. but they're quite easy. 09:16
sirrobert: they're a nice way to make an open set of alternative ways to parse the same thing.
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masak sirrobert: like, consider "term". it is a protoregex in the Perl 6 grammar. if you specified "term" as a single rule, it would one big honking alternation of things that can be terms in Perl 6. 09:17
sirrobert: but with protoregexes, you say "proto token term {*}", and then you can specify all the alternatives individually after that. 09:19
like, "token term:value", and "token term:colonpair".
and it's an open-ended set, so inheriting grammars can easily add to that.
sergot hi! o/
masak sergocie! \o/ 09:20
tadzik oh hi
sergot \o/
masak and the LTM treats each of these alternatives as part of one big alternation, and builds efficient NFAs based on that.
jnthn The NFAs look very much like the NFAs an alternation gives too :) 09:21
masak well, because protoregexes are essentially alternations lifted to the rule level. 09:23
there's a shudder-inducingly nice strange consistency there between proto methods and proto regexes.
it's just that a "method call" to a rule involves matching text using the LTM. 09:24
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jnthn
.oO( it was shudder-incuding 'cus I had to redo multi dispatch... )
 09:26
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masak jnthn: you had to redo multi dispatch because of LTM? 09:27
jnthn masak: I had to redo multiple dispatch because the meaning of proto changed to look more like what proto means in regexes
masak: It hadn't used to be so strangely consistent.
That was one of the (many) changes that happened in the nom branch 09:28
masak right. 09:30
I hardly remember what proto usedta mean by now. but I remember liking the change.
jnthn Most people like it overall, I think. Only the change of meaning of .+ and .* was not always liked. 09:31
masak oh, right. 09:34
yes, they seem to have gotten less useful after that.
jnthn Well, depending on what you want.
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Moukeddar o/ perl6 09:38
is masak traveling or something ?
masak no, I'm here. 09:39
just busy.
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mathw_ hello!! 09:41
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masak mathw_! \o/ 09:42
mathw hi masak
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tadzik hello mathw 09:44
jnthn hi, mathw
mathw hello awesome people 09:45
especially awesome Sir jnthn of the Debugger.
jnthn mathw: You tried it?
mathw it made colours :) 09:51
I only tried it a little bit 09:52
jnthn :)
mathw but it's so good to know it's there
jnthn After I first demo'd it at YAPC, somebody told me afterwards they thought I had to be faking the demos. :D 09:53
tadzik :) 09:55
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FROGGS__ jnthn: its just to good to be true 10:07
but I already tried it ;o)
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GlitchMr gist.github.com/e5ac91f3edb75a4d4891 10:19
I was bored.
FROGGS whats that 􏿽xBB􏿽xF6􏿽xAB for? 10:23
GlitchMr We have robots.txt, so why not humans.txt?
(ok, this is too silly to be on actual site) 10:24
huf FROGGS: unicode art for the butterfly, see also topic 10:29
GlitchMr perl6: gist.github.com/e5ac91f3edb75a4d4891 10:31
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Confused at /tmp/9q4XfcY5MO line 1:␤------> https⏏://gist.github.com/e5ac91f3edb75a4d4891␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'https' used at line 1␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/v0PHLoUe6a:1␤»
GlitchMr huh?
I accidentally made it private? 10:32
gist.github.com/3608429 10:33
perl6: gist.github.com/3608429
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«This site owes its existence to␤* Carl Mäsak (design, content, constructive bikeshedding)␤* Carlin Bingham (pedantic bug fixing)␤* Daniel Ruoso (content, design fixes)␤* Daniel Wright (perl6.org domain)␤* Herbert Breunung (minor content)␤* Larry Wall (Perl, Perl 6,…
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«This site owes its existence to␤* Carl Mäsak (design, content, constructive bikeshedding)␤* Carlin Bingham (pedantic bug fixing)␤* Daniel Ruoso (content, design fixes)␤* Daniel Wright (perl6.org domain)␤* Herbert Breunung (minor content)␤* Larry Wall (Perl,…
GlitchMr Good :)
FROGGS huf: thanks 10:34
GlitchMr But I don't like this Camelia
It uses ISO-8859-1 characters 10:35
But that's probably a feature
huf hmm? 10:37
it's in utf8
GlitchMr But can be written in ISO-8859-1
huf so?
so can the letter P 10:38
FROGGS or the letters [GlitchMr]
GlitchMr I guess that >>o<< is in utf8 too
(well, technically it is)
huf are you talking about the charset or the encoding here? 10:39
i dont see how the word "technically" enters into this\
GlitchMr encoding, charset, whatever 10:40
huf there's no case where those two things can be whatevered\ 10:41
>>o<< is absolutely in utf8.
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GlitchMr Or perhaps >>o"<< as Camelia alterantive 10:42
Or perhaps >>`o`<< 10:43
huf here, o: is the accepted substitute for ö
but that's not very visually appealing
Timbus >>(ºдಠ)<< 10:46
catch the butterfly! `` (ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ` »ö« 10:52
(ノ；ﾟДﾟ)ノ»ö« ᴾᵁᵀ ᴹᴱ ᴰᴼᵂᴺ 10:53
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GlitchMr Timbus: I'm not sure if this is feature, but $ev.what contains \r at end 10:54
Timbus rrreally? 10:55
odd i never noticed that
masak doesn't sound like a feature... 11:01
Timbus not sure where the \r is coming from then 11:03
perl -e 'print "test\r\n"' | perl6 -e 'say get.perl'
GlitchMr IRC server sends \r\n
But Perl 6 only chomps \n
Probably because it's UNIX or something
Timbus but 11:04
GlitchMr Hmmm... but yeah, it's weird
Timbus or is the shell eating the \r
GlitchMr glitchmr@feather ~/SixtySixBot> cat factoids 11:05
{ "future" : "The future is already here \u00e2\u0080\u0094 it's just not very evenly distributed.\r" }
Possibly...
Also, binary data in JSON :P
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GlitchMr gist.github.com/3608585 11:05
Just wondering, how can I initialize variable basing on other variable?
I've 11:06
has $.file;
has %!content = try { from-json slurp $.file } // {};
But %!content tries to read $.file, so it doesn't work
hoelzro GlitchMr: maybe initialize %!content in BUILD?
GlitchMr Not really 11:08
$.file is Any in BUILD for some reason 11:09
oh, it's submethod, not method
Timbus it's initialized after build
or is that a lie 11:10
GlitchMr gist.github.com/3608610
Timbus yeah 11:11
GlitchMr Am I doing something wrongly?
Timbus you're making the same mistakes i made. 11:12
GlitchMr When Perl 6 is making OOP easier, overloading .new is still complicated ;) 11:14
FROGGS dont you have to access attributes from inside the class with exclamation mark instead of dot?
GlitchMr Exclamation mark is for private attributes
Timbus i think the solution was a custom new
or, grab '$file' in build as a parameter and use that instead of $.file 11:15
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FROGGS IMO you just use the dot when declaring the attrib 11:15
do you wanna pass $.file to new() ? 11:16
GlitchMr Yes
11:16 MayDaniel left
GlitchMr Also, gist.github.com/3608623 11:16
11:17 xinming joined
GlitchMr (by the way, prefix thing is worst hax ever) 11:17
Timbus lol, oh i see 11:18
yeah i wouldn't rely on that
FROGGS try that: gist.github.com/3608624
fiddled around with this stuff this weekend 11:20
GlitchMr Works
FROGGS cool
try using the dot instead of !
shoudnt work 11:21
GlitchMr 13:21:40 @GlitchMr | 66, add camelia »ö«
13:21:44 @GlitchMr | 66, camelia
13:21:44 SixtySixBot | GlitchMr: »ö«
Good 11:22
Timbus looks at FROGGS gist
uh..
hm
something about that feels wrong but im not savvy enough to pick it 11:23
FROGGS about what exactly?
GlitchMr { "future" : "The future is already here \u00e2\u0080\u0094 it's just not very evenly distributed.\r", "camelia" : "\u00c2\u00bb\u00c3\u00b6\u00c2\u00ab\r" }
Except I still have weird \r
FROGGS whats your $*OS ? 11:24
11:25 tokuhiro_ joined
GlitchMr It's feather dev server 11:25
But it reports "linux"
FROGGS k
I was thinking you might use macos
GlitchMr Would Perl 6 even compile on Classic Mac OS ;)? 11:26
daxim people still use classic?
FROGGS well, I guess
GlitchMr I'm not sure, but today Perl 6 is used on two platforms - Unix-like and Windows 11:28
Timbus FROGGS, i think what I don't like is the 'new' method. you can just remove it and use .new(file => $filename)
FROGGS my guess was that say using os specific line endings, and print will not
Timbus which is far more perl6ish
FROGGS Timbus: but what if I dont want named params? 11:29
like DateTime.new
give it something, and according to its type it does some magic or not
GlitchMr But perhaps in future Perl 6 will support platforms like VMS or Android ;)
(ok, Android is sort of Unix, I know)
FROGGS I believe Android is already supported somehow 11:30
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GlitchMr Without Debootstrap? 11:30
FROGGS no idea
GlitchMr But, I guess it's possible 11:31
I already have Perl 5 on my Android phone
FROGGS cool, is there a howto to do that? 11:32
I thought the Android support got stuck in 2008 11:33
GlitchMr code.google.com/p/perldroid/wiki/Compiling5160 11:34
I've Perl on unrooted phone BTW ;) 11:36
FROGGS cool cool cool
I always wanted to do that
porting my games to my phone ;o)
GlitchMr I also have bash, vim, busybox and mc :) 11:39
FROGGS mc++
*g*
thats always the first thing I install on my boxes
so you are able to use cpan on it?
GlitchMr Well, pure Perl modules work 11:40
FROGGS great
of course it wont compile xs stuff
GlitchMr Well, if you would install C compiler... possibly
FROGGS but I have to find a way to load libs somehow
GlitchMr Not that I have space for that on my device
Every executable is on /data partition 11:41
I want this to work without rooting, so I cannot make ext2 partition on SD card or anything like that
But if you have rooted phone, I guess you can try making ext2 partition on SD card or something 11:42
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FROGGS hmmm, I'll give it a try and let you know... 11:44
GlitchMr dl.dropbox.com/u/63913412/SC20120903-134346.png 11:45
tadzik Perl 5 runs natively on my phone, but it's 5.8.6 or something
GlitchMr I also found this screenshot on my Dropbox: dl.dropbox.com/u/63913412/android.png 11:46
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cognominal r: my $rxa = /a/; my $rx = / $rxa /; say 'match' if 'a' ~~ $rx; say $<rxa> 12:04
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«match␤Any()␤»
cognominal By similarity with grammars, I would expect $<rxa> to return 'a'. Am I wrong? 12:05
jnthn Yes 12:06
You need to explicitly capture it
cognominal ok, that's fine by me.
I wanted to be sure that was intended behavior 12:07
Sep 03 05:24:53 <sorear>o/ cognominal 12:14
\o sorear and every one
moritz o/ 12:24
moritz at his first day at $new_work 12:25
brrt \o moritz
what kind of $new_work
probably not construction, but thats just me guessing 12:26
moritz perl 5 programming
pmichaud ...people still use that? ;-) 12:27
masak those Perl 5 people are desperate. they put big fives on their conf shirts just so that people will take notice. 12:28
moritz: have the appropriate amount of new work ;) 12:29
moritz masak: takk :-) 12:30
masak sings New Work, New Work 12:32
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TimToady funny to call it jet *lag* when it makes you wake up several hours early... 13:10
13:11 Cofyc left
jnthn heh :) 13:14
FROGGS TimToady: I call them Aaron or David when I wake up hours earlier ;o) 13:18
but, hey, just 16 years to go -.-
13:20 jaldhar joined 13:29 FROGGS left, FROGGS__ left 13:34 fhelmberger left 13:37 bbkr joined
bbkr perl6 -e '-1' # should this code work as in p5 ? in latest star it breaks because it thinks −1 is an option. 13:39
with "Option -e needs a value, but is followed by an option" error
moritz bbkr: that's an error, please submit a bug report for it 13:40
masak bbkr++
bbkr reports 13:41
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jnthn stockholm & 13:45
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masak sometimes the simplest path to solving a problem is to translate it to a different model, solve it there, and translate back. 14:05
14:06 whiteknight joined
masak I wish there were more tools in modern programming languages for doing this three-step thing. 14:06
flussence
.oO( /usr/bin/schwartz )
 14:08
masak yes, the Schwartzian transform is a good example of this. there are many more. 14:09
TimToady transform Perl 5 design to Perl 6 design, fix Perl 6, backport to Perl 5 14:10
flussence :D
masak ;)
14:11 sisar joined, felher joined
sisar o/ #perl6 ! 14:11
masak sisar! \o/
estrai hi, I heard some rumors about plans to put Perl6 on JVM, is there any truth in that, if yes is there a space that has more details?
masak for example, if I want to add an index before the first heading of an HTML document, created out of all the headings in that document... I'd much rather solve the text matching/rewriting problem as a tree rewriting problem.
estrai: interesting, you're the second person to ask in less than 48 hours. is there some source of information about this that we don't know about? 14:12
bbkr std: q…say # is this STD bug (should be interpreted as .say on empty quoted string) or Rakudo bug (because it accepts this syntax)?
p6eval std 2f65afc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Couldn't find terminator … at /tmp/AcvWJzAI7G line 1 (EOF):␤------> do bug (because it accepts this syntax)?⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 40m␤»
masak estrai: (yes, there are plans to make Rakudo target multiple VMs.)
bbkr r: q...say
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«␤»
masak std: q...say 14:13
p6eval std 2f65afc: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 40m␤»
bbkr estrai \o/
estrai masak: my source is someone who went to YAPC
masak bbkr: I see no conflict there between STD and Rakudo.
flussence looks like q..\ .say to me.
masak estrai: ok. yes, that was discussed at YAPC::Europe.
flussence: it is. 14:14
flussence r: q․.․.say 14:15
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«.␤»
bbkr nvm, my stupid IRC client changed 3x dot to tripple dot char :)
.u ... 14:16
phenny U+0020 SPACE ( )
U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK (!)
U+0022 QUOTATION MARK (") [...]
masak bbkr: maybe switch to a less stupid IRC client? 14:19
daxim loldium 14:21
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estrai masak: is there any other information available, ie conclusion of the discussions / anyone working on JVM implementation? 14:28
masak estrai: well, here's what's going on. Rakudo has needed to be prepared for other VMs. part of that has been removing (Parrot-specific) PIR from the project. if I'm not mistaken, the last big bit was removed with the last branch, toqast, on Rakudo. 14:29
there's a corresponding toqast branch in nqp (on which Rakudo is built) that also needs to land. 14:30
but these are just the last refactors in a long line of refactors leading up to being positioned for VM independence.
I'm less clear what needs to be done now, beyond "port nqp to another VM". 14:31
[Coke] Didn't toqast in nqp just land this weekend?
masak oh, maybe.
14:31 FROGGS__ joined
masak has been distracted lately :) 14:31
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gfldex Merge latest master into toqast. jnthn authored 2 days ago 14:32
[Coke] does dislike that artifact of git merging. 14:33
"but I'm IN maste... oh." 14:34
flussence merges should go one direction, rebases for the other
estrai that's really nice, thanks alot for the info 14:35
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moritz eeks, the code I'm inheriting doesn't use whitespace after a comma 14:40
timotimo huh,is that a problem? 14:41
colomon timotimo: for legibility, yes.
moritz timotimo: only if I want to read the code, or write new code that follows the same "style" 14:42
colomon anyone have a clue why token reverse_solidus { '\' } is a Malformed regex ?
timotimo i inherited some c++ code where all code was put into the class definitions inside the header file ... only benefit i saw from it was that the makefile is really simple.
14:43 integral left
colomon oh, '\' is an exception to the norm? 14:43
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timotimo wouldn't it be fairly straightforward to have an automated program fix the comma issue? 14:43
moritz colomon: because the \ escapes the '
colomon moritz++
moritz timotimo: separate class definition doesn't work if you use templates 14:44
timotimo yeah, but the code hardly does use templates at all
as in: declares three different template classes in one file, but uses the same convention for all other files as well
well, i shall not rant about other peoples' code too much. my own code is far from perfect as well :) 14:45
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masak idly wonders if work has been done to automatically derive a grammar from a sufficiently well-specified class hierarchy with .Str methods 14:58
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timotimo do i misunderstand something here? wouldn't that require .Str to be essentially a reversible function? 15:00
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timotimo i would understand if you meant a .FromStr method or something like that 15:01
arnsholt masak: What are you thinking of?
This may or may not be related to my academic speciality =) 15:02
masak arnsholt: having, say, an XML grammar be deduced from the class hierarchy of Element, Attribute, ProcessingInstruction, etc, and the way they can contain each other and serialize into XML. 15:08
arnsholt: that is, directly using the fact that XML parsing and XML serialization are (or should be) inverse operations. 15:09
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colomon is off on a new project for $work: github.com/colomon/perl6-ISO_10303-21 15:29
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masak hm, STEP? 15:33
oh, product manufacturing information.
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colomon masak: CAD files 15:37
masak aha. 15:38
MikeFair I'd like to do something like: say("$/") in a rule to find out what got passed into it. What can I do inside the regex to make that happen? I read somewhere that $/ isn't valid in the middle of the match and my attempts have so far yielded nothing but an empty string (despite that there is a match string it is operatng on). I'm just having a really hard time getting this expression right (and it seems like it should be so
easy!)
colomon masak: and by far the most ridiculously over-wrote CAD specification I've seen. basically it's thousands of pages of class definitions without ever stopping to tell you how the classes are intended to be used. 15:39
moritz { say "$/" }
should work inside a rule
that shows how much has been matched until that point
colomon masak: my current goal is a tool to help me reverse engineer STEP files.
MikeFair: have you looked into the grammar debugger? 15:40
MikeFair moritz: Yeah I thought that was it, that's yielding blank for me (this is also parrot's compiler toolkit, so it's NQP)
moritz MikeFair: well, works in rakudo :-)
MikeFair moritz: :) 15:41
moritz parrot's NQP is pretty old by now
masak r: "fafafa blob" ~~ / ([f.]+) { say $/ } \s* blob /; say ?$/ 15:42
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«｢fafafa｣␤ 0 => ｢fafafa｣␤␤True␤»
15:42 ponbiki joined
MikeFair colomon: yes, there's also some --trace options, but I can't seem to figure out what those are either 15:42
15:42 BlueT_ joined
colomon MikeFair: yeah, I'm sure the debugger doesn't work in NQP. 15:43
dalek d: 0c2b471 | larry++ | viv:
allow variables for /$start ~ $stop <thing>/
 15:46
d: 6b2f25b | larry++ | CursorBase.pmc:
support <hexdigit>
d: e191c3c | larry++ | STD_P5.pm6:
more cclass and tr cleanup; parse \xffabc right
masak it's nice to see development on STD_P5.pm6. TimToady++ 15:48
15:52 am0c joined
MikeFair goes about doing what it takes to upgrade nqp! :) 15:55
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arnsholt masak: Right. Well, if all you have are the Str methods, you're sort of into run-time properties of code without running it land 16:00
(And the associated theorem whose name I keep forgetting)
masak *nod*
yeah, I think I'm looking for something more static-analyzingly than that.
16:01 brrt left
arnsholt An active research field in NLP is inducing a grammar for a language solely from running text, but that's different =) 16:02
skids r: sub f (::T $g) { for ($g) -> T $h { } }; f("blah"); 16:04
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$h'; expected T but got Str instead␤ in sub f at /tmp/nyEXnQAEAB:1␤ in block at /tmp/nyEXnQAEAB:1␤␤»
masak superstitious parentheses around $g... 16:06
...but weird error. T should contain Str, no? 16:07
r: sub f (::T $g) { say T.^name }; f("blah")
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«Str␤»
masak r: sub f (::T $g) { for $g -> T $h {} }; f("blah")
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$h'; expected T but got Str instead␤ in sub f at /tmp/QgoutP45wf:1␤ in block at /tmp/QgoutP45wf:1␤␤»
masak weyrd.
skids I do manage to run into some of the weirder ones, yes. :-) 16:08
masak r: sub f (::T $g) { say $g ~~ Str; say $g ~~ T; say Str ~~ T }; f("blah") 16:11
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«True␤True␤True␤»
masak r: sub f (::T $g) { for $g -> $h { say Str ~~ T } }; f("blah")
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«True␤»
skids it only happens in the for signature, every other place it works. 16:12
masak r: sub f (::T $g) { for $g -> $h where { say Str ~~ T } {} }; f("blah")
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak curious.
skids: mind if I submit a rakudobug?
skids please, thank you
masak submits rakudobug
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arnsholt masak: Rice's theorem 16:25
That's the name =) 16:26
masak oh, right. 16:30
"It's undecidable whether a function has a certain property." 16:31
dalek ast: 1312772 | larry++ | S32-list/sort.t:
can't use placeholders in a hash subscript
 16:34
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arnsholt That's the one. For some values of function and property I'm unable to make out from the Wikipedia article 16:41
masak the value of function is "partial function", which means that the domain is too big so the function doesn't map all its values. 16:43
the value of property is "all non-trivial properties". where trivial is defined as "holds for all partial computable functions, or for none". I don't know exactly what that means. 16:44
but that makes it sound like the trivial properties aren't very interesting, and so all the interesting properties fall victim to Rice.
&
arnsholt Yeah, that's as far as I got 16:48
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MikeFair I didn't read it, but that definition of trivial makes it sound like sometest() returns true for either every partial computable function, or no function at all 17:17
dalek d: e3d3982 | larry++ | / (2 files):
correctly parse currently defined exceptions
 17:18
MikeFair or more specifically no partial computable function
meaning the non-trivial properties will be true in some functions and not true in others 17:20
at least that's my read of the sentence 17:22
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diakopter phenny: ask TimToady what results when you request a value of a key that doesn't exist in a hash that stores native ints? 17:37
phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
17:39 rindolf joined
rindolf Hi all. 17:39
diakopter o/
rindolf diakopter: what's up? 17:50
I watched the "Perl 6 Benchmarks/Optimization" talk by pmichaud on YouTube. It was nice. 17:51
Pretty impressive work on optimisations.
GlitchMr Can I do something like: 17:52
my $content = slurp('file') || 'File not found'
?
So, if exception will happen, use placeholder value
dalek ast: 5397065 | larry++ | S10-packages/basic.t:
prefer 'can' over [can]

  (since [can] looks like it might be a character class)		 17:53
ast: e6ba01a | larry++ | S (8 files):
remove sigils from | and \
GlitchMr > try {slurp('a')}.perl 17:54
X::AdHoc.new(payload => "Unable to open filehandle from path 'a'")
X::AdHoc?
I guess that more detailed errors are NYI
17:55 whiteknight left 18:00 fglock joined
pmichaud ...what's with all of the "Perl 6 is out" tweets, I wonder? 18:00
twitter.com/bufferzone/statuses/242...6144470016 # example
leont blame reddit
18:00 yves__ left
leont No, it was HN 18:00
diakopter oh dear 18:01
GlitchMr what
It isn't out
diakopter not in the sense they think, I'm sure 18:02
GlitchMr But why they suddenly started to say "Perl 6 is out" 18:03
2012.08 is just like 2012.07
It's still incomplete
Except more complete
pmichaud yeah, that is what is a little weird... why *this release* to start saying "oh, Perl 6 is out!"
diakopter news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4469513 18:04
GlitchMr "a useful and usable distribution of Perl 6"
But that was always there
huh?
pmichaud anyway, I think I'm actually happy with the tweets. Maybe it'll start to counteract the "Perl 6 is vaporware" meme :-)
twitter.com/mrmarksteadman/statuses...0288011264 # another one :-) 18:05
GlitchMr "The title of this submission is in fact totally wrong. Rakudo has quarterly releases. Perl 6 is not finished."
Aren't they monthly?
leont Star is quarterly, right? 18:06
pmichaud it's monthly now 18:07
we'll go back to quarterly in 2013, likely.
18:07 yves__ joined
daxim to catch up for the lack of releases during some rewrite? 18:07
leont hopes someone will package it for ubuntu/debian, or makes it easy to build that debian package 18:08
pmichaud it's already packaged 18:09
we time releases based on development momentum 18:10
right now there are a lot of improvements occurring monthly, so we release monthly. If there's less improvement taking place, we'll release quarterly.
__sri and while you are at it update the one in homebrew ;)
leont pmichaud: there where are the .debs? 18:11
pmichaud launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rakudo 18:12
leont Those are ancient and older :-/
pmichaud oh, you want up-to-date .debs :) 18:13
leont (well, maybe the current+1 isn't ancient, but it sure isn't current either)
pmichaud ubuntu's speed is a lot slower than ours :)
we've talked about publishing our own .debs, yes.
it's a bit tricky, though, because we'd have to publish parrot .debs also
__sri suddenly feels less bad about homebrew only being a month behind 18:14
GlitchMr Well, Ubuntu is supposed to be stable 18:15
So it includes outdated Perl 6
pmichaud and outdated parrot :)
GlitchMr Ubuntu also includes Perl 5.14.2. Not that it matters, it's still supported.
Perhaps I could make ppa with up-to-date Rakudo, but I don't know 18:16
leont Yeah, I'd love a ppa
My laptop would not be a good place to compile this sort of stuff 18:17
GlitchMr Then I will try learning how to make ppa and make one :)
frettled When $perl6_implementation is sufficiently stable that spec details don't change significantly within three years, you'll notice that it won't matter much if Ubuntu or Debian are two or three years behind :)
pmichaud 18:05 <GlitchMr> "The title of this submission is in fact totally wrong. Rakudo has quarterly releases. Perl 6 is not finished."
where did you see that?
I'd like to respond with "The title of this submission is in fact totally wrong. Perl 5 has yearly releases. Perl 5 is not finished." 18:18
GlitchMr pmichaud: 20:04:14 diakopter | news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4469513
frettled So right now, I think it would actually be better if these OS distributions did not confuse matters by including even Parrot, but then again, they have had similar issues with e.g. the packaging monstrosity that is ImageMagick earlier.
pmichaud: and thank heavens that neither are finished!
That would be a very, very sad day. 18:19
A language is finished the day it lays down to die.
TimToady rn: $/ = 42; 18:20
phenny TimToady: 17:37Z <diakopter> ask TimToady what results when you request a value of a key that doesn't exist in a hash that stores native ints?
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Unsupported use of $/ variable as input record separator; in Perl 6 please use the filehandle's :irs attribute at /tmp/ciDvp64RYk line 1:␤------> $/⏏ = 42;␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..rakudo 962b9b: ( no output )
TimToady rn: $/ := 42;
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: ( no output )
..rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand side␤at /tmp/ETDtUr1cLN:1␤»
geekosaur stable = dead, just as in biology
TimToady rn: ($/) = 42;
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: ( no output )
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤ at /tmp/23UDmnSYaT line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4138 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4139 (module-CORE @ 571) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib…
frettled geekosaur: no, that's completely unlike biology :)
TimToady r and n still have very different ideas of what $/ is 18:21
frettled TimToady: which one is closest to having the right idea?
TimToady not sure 18:22
diakopter: you get a fail (note that failures are allowed to violate return type constraints) 18:23
GlitchMr ok, I'm generating GPG key for PPA 18:24
colomon r: say "this, is, a, test" ~~ / [\w+]+ % ',' /; 18:25
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«｢this｣␤␤»
colomon r: say "this, is, a, test" ~~ m:s/ [\w+]+ % ',' /; 18:26
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«｢this｣␤␤»
colomon n: say "this, is, a, test" ~~ m:s/ [\w+]+ % ',' /;
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(17) text(this, is, a, test) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
diakopter TimToady: so for a hash that's trying to conserve space, the implementation needs to return the value and also mark a success flag, so the language can return the fail as appropriate?
colomon rn: say "this, is, a, test" ~~ m:s/ [\w+] [',' [\w+]]* / 18:28
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«｢this, is, a, test｣␤␤»
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(17) text(this, is, a, test) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
moritz sirrobert: you complained lack of docs earlier. Anything in particular that interests you?
pmichaud r: $/ := 42; # seems to me this should be allowed by rakudo 18:29
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand side␤at /tmp/_mmJdyRgJX:1␤»
pmichaud I don't know why Rakudo disallows that.
18:30 daxim left
moritz pmichaud: it's probably more a case of not actively allowing it 18:31
(just guessing)
sergot++ # feather.perl6.nl/~sergot/modules/
pmichaud the error message implies it doesn't know what to do there 18:32
GlitchMr oh wait, I don't need GPG key 18:33
moritz aye
GlitchMr or I need
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pmichaud I totally cannot find where that exception (X::Bind) is being generated/thrown, either. :-( 18:35
(the downside to typed exceptions)
moritz $ ack -w Bind src/Perl6/ 18:36
pmichaud oh, it's ['X', 'Bind'] 18:37
I was looking for X::Bind
moritz that was from a time before we supported 'X::Bind'
pmichaud silly me.
sorear good * #perl6
moritz I can change those for better greppability
pmichaud I wonder if the thrown exception should also display its type, too. 18:38
moritz I've been wondering that too
pmichaud I.e., "(X::Bind) Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand-side" instead of making me grep for the exception message to figure out the exception type
moritz maybe as doc.perl6.org/type/X::Bind
pmichaud could be that too. 18:39
masak sorear! \o/
pmichaud files rakudobug. 18:40
filed. 18:41
lunchtime.
masak pmichaud++
18:43 s1n left, mtk left, s1n joined, telex left 18:44 telex joined 18:50 FROGGS_ joined 18:52 mtk joined
sorear o/ FROGGS_ 18:53
pmichaud heh... on the other hand, anyone that actually follows the links in the "Perl 6 is released" tweets will land on the rakudo.org page, which is a long sequence of "Rakudo Star 2012.nn released" postings. :-P 18:54
leont It's not bad PR 18:56
pmichaud agreed; I'm happy for the PR... it's just a little weird. :)
FROGGS_ hi sorear
pmichaud okay, I'm afk for robotics meeting -- bbl 18:57
dalek ast: 89f0409 | larry++ | S (23 files):
warning suppression, mostly "not used"
 18:58
tipdbmp If I have the: sub flatten(|@array) { ... } # how do I access my elements? Using @array[0, 1, ..., etc] or with the @_[0, 1, ..., etc.]? 19:02
r: sub flatten(|@array) { say for @array } flatten(1 .. 4); 19:03
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«Obsolete use of | or \ with sigil on param @array␤===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/Ai1RcTPy0x:1␤»
tipdbmp r: sub flatten(|@array) { say for @_ } flatten(1 .. 4); 19:04
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«Obsolete use of | or \ with sigil on param @array␤===SORRY!===␤Placeholder variable '@_' cannot override existing signature␤at /tmp/WBOW3UJAUa:1␤»
TimToady semi required after }
and |@array is wrong now
just use |capture or some such
19:05 araujo left
pmichaud or even just @array 19:06
TimToady and you need .say rather than say
tipdbmp right
pmichaud r: sub flatten(@array) { .say for @array); flatten(1..4);
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near "); flatten"␤»
pmichaud r: sub flatten(@array) { .say for @array }; flatten(1..4);
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤»
tipdbmp r: sub flatten(@array) { .say for @array }; my ($a, $b) = 1, 2; flatten($a, $b); 19:07
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '@array'; expected Positional but got Int instead␤ in sub flatten at /tmp/9MZ0A_Ojvg:1␤ in block at /tmp/9MZ0A_Ojvg:1␤␤»
tipdbmp r: sub flatten(@array) { .say for @array }; my ($a, $b) = 1, 2; flatten(($a, $b)); 19:08
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
pmichaud r: sub flatten(*@array) { .say for @array }; my ($a, $b) = 1, 2; flatten($a, $b); 19:09
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
19:09 ivan`` is now known as ^ivan``
tipdbmp r: sub flatte(*@array) { .say for @array }; my @a = 1 .. 4; flatten(@a); 19:10
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&flatten' called (line 1)␤»
tipdbmp r: sub flatten(*@array) { .say for @array }; my @a = 1 .. 4; flatten(@a);
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤»
masak .oO( flattening won't get you anywhere... ) 19:16
19:17 nodmonkey left
dalek d: 9f91d53 | larry++ | / (3 files):
oops, that should be xdigit, not hexdigit
 19:33
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tipdbmp r: sub flatten($a, $b, $c) { say $a, $b, $c } my @a = 1 .. 3; flatten(|@a); 20:00
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/fL9tMJpeL_:1␤»
tipdbmp r: sub flatten($a, $b, $c) { say $a, $b, $c } my @a = 1 .. 3; flatten(@a); 20:01
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/FtQom_Fi_P:1␤»
diakopter add a semicolon after the }
tipdbmp r: sub flatten($a, $b, $c) { say $a, $b, $c; } my @a = 1 .. 3; flatten(@a);
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/64p2atdSSG:1␤»
diakopter *after, not before
tipdbmp r: sub flatten($a, $b, $c) { say $a, $b, $c }; my @a = 1 .. 3; flatten(@a); 20:02
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'flatten' will never work with argument types (Positional) (line 1)␤ Expected: :($a, $b, $c)␤»
tipdbmp r: sub flatten($a, $b, $c) { say $a, $b, $c }; my @a = 1 .. 3; flatten(|@a);
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«123␤»
tipdbmp tnx
r: sub flatten($a, $b, $c) { say $a, $b, $c }; flatten(|1 .. 3); 20:04
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&prefix:<|>' called (line 1)␤»
tipdbmp r: sub flatten($a, $b, $c) { say $a, $b, $c }; flatten(|(1 .. 3));
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«123␤»
diakopter n: sub flatten($a, $b, $c) { say $a, $b, $c }; flatten(|(1 .. 3));
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method Capture in type Range␤ at /tmp/mbgNOO8jQI line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4138 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4139 (module-CORE @ 571) ␤ at /ho…
20:05 MayDaniel joined 20:07 SamuraiJack left
diakopter I didn't see a Perl 6 Report in the last few days: blogs.perl.org/users/perl_6_reports/ 20:09
sorear that's been commented yesterday 20:12
diakopter ok
FROGGS_ hey, my name is on that page \o/
now I'm famous ;o) 20:13
20:15 sisar left 20:33 leont left 20:34 leont joined 20:41 marmay left 20:44 Chillance joined 21:02 snearch left
jnthn evening o/ 21:07
mathw oh hai jnthn
FROGGS_ r: my $thing = ( sub( $a ){ ... } ); $thing.(7) 21:10
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $a is not declared␤at /tmp/ZXLAojGplz:1␤»
FROGGS_ how can I declare a?
jnthn you need a space after the word sub 21:11
FROGGS_ r: my $thing = ( sub ( $a ){ ... } ); $thing.(7)
p6eval rakudo 962b9b: ( no output )
FROGGS_ ohh
nice
thanks
jnthn Otherwise it interprets it as a function call 21:12
FROGGS_ I see
masak jnthn! \o/ 21:16
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lizmat from doc.perl6.org: 21:42
infix orelse
Returns the first undefined argument, or else the last argument. Short-circuits
s/undefined/defined ???
sorear lizmat: that sounds like the documentation for "infix andthen" 21:44
maybe they got swapped
lizmat copy/paste error, I would think 21:45
Same as infix //, except with looser precedence.
(for infix orelse)
sorear that's the correct definition of infix orelse 21:46
lizmat so, for clarity: infix orelse returns first *defined* argument, right? 21:47
diakopter I don't know whether it must check the last one for definedness.. sorear? 21:48
lizmat not according to the doc: or else the last argument 21:49
diakopter right, I agree with you it implies you don't have to check the last one 21:50
masak the point of 'orelse' (just as with '||' and 'or' and '//') is that it thunks.
if that's what you're asking.
diakopter huh? 21:51
masak S03's definition is like this:
Returns the first argument that evaluates successfully (that is,
if the result is defined). Otherwise returns the result of the
right argument.
sorear diakopter: you're right that when passing N arguments to orelse, you only need N-1 definedness checks
lizmat so the doc is incorrect
sorear diakopter: but that's material for _Implementing Perl 6_, not the userdocs
lizmat has a patch ready to push with s/undefined/defined 21:53
diakopter I disagree; someone who hasn't learned about vivifying might be misled
lizmat infix //
Defined-or operator. Returns the first defined operand. Short-circuits.
infix orelse 21:54
Same as infix //, except with looser precedence.
Returns the first undefined argument, or else the last argument. Short-circuits.
TimToady note that 'andthen' and 'orelse' have complementary topicalizing behavior as well, that is supposed to make it easy to write backtrackcing engines using lazy lists like STD does
*tracking
lizmat so the doc is correct for infix orelse ? 21:55
TimToady haven't looked
lizmat "Returns the first undefined argument, or else the last argument. Short-circuits."
is what it says now at the bottom of doc.perl6.org/language/operators 21:56
TimToady that much is true
21:56 stepnem left
TimToady but it also sets $! to the undefined left side when evaluating the right side 21:56
lizmat so "infix orelse" is *not* the same as "infix //"
TimToady it has additional behavior 21:57
so does 'andthen'
lizmat as infix // returns the first *DEFINED* operator, and infix orelse returns the first *UNDEFINED* operator
according to the doc
TimToady 'orelse' is not the same as p5's 'dor'
21:57 average_drifter left 21:58 average_drifter joined
lizmat but infix // is the same as p5's // ? 21:59
masak .oO( d'or! )
TimToady yes
(except for where p6 defined definedness differently)
refs are always true in p5, and that's not so in p6
21:59 cognominal left, cognominal_ joined
sorear npr: while 1 -> $x { last given 5 }; say $_ 22:00
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Cannot bind to non-existing variable: "$x"␤ at /tmp/Gp1kADXx7H line 1, column 1␤»
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $x is declared but not used at /tmp/7iTOHxH4Gq line 1:␤------> while 1 -> ⏏$x { last given 5 }; say $_␤␤Any()␤»
..rakudo 962b9b: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
sorear npr: (sub () { my $x; $_ = 2; while 1 -> $x { last given 5 }; say $_ })()
p6eval rakudo 962b9b, pugs: OUTPUT«2␤»
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $x is declared but not used at /tmp/YYdxZsjm7S line 1:␤------> (sub () { my $x; $_ = 2; while 1 -> ⏏$x { last given 5 }; say $_ })()␤␤2␤»
sorear huh
lizmat is there a difference between "infix orelse" and "infix andthen" ? 22:01
diakopter rn: my $x; say 1 orelse $x # TimToady, so this is wrong?
sorear npr: (sub () { my $x; $_ = 2; while 1 -> $x { 5 ~~ last }; say $_ })()
p6eval rakudo 962b9b, niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«1␤»
rakudo 962b9b, pugs: OUTPUT«2␤»
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $x is declared but not used at /tmp/Eoia9I_LRg line 1:␤------> (sub () { my $x; $_ = 2; while 1 -> ⏏$x { 5 ~~ last }; say $_ })()␤␤2␤»
lizmat there is not according to the doc on docs.perl6.org
sorear lizmat: orelse and andthen are opposites
lizmat then the documentation is incorrect, as they *both* currently state: 22:02
sorear npr: (sub () { my $x; $_ = 2; while 1 -> $x { $_ = 5; last }; say $_ })() #OK
diakopter TimToady: lizmat is asking about a possible typo in the documentation. "undefined" instead of "defined"
p6eval rakudo 962b9b, niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b, pugs: OUTPUT«5␤»
sorear wtf, why isn't this breaking!?
lizmat "Returns the first undefined argument, otherwise the last argument. Short-circuits."
22:03 mucker left
sorear lizmat: you were right all along, there is a typo in the description of 'orelse'. diakopter and TimToady are making orthogonal points 22:03
lizmat ack
pushing fix
dalek c: 8759962 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | lib/operators.pod:
Fixed copy/paste error in infix orelse documentation
diakopter sorear: what orthogonal point am I making?
sorear diakopter wants to make explicit the fact that 'orelse' doesn't call .defined on its rightmost argument
diakopter that was before the last 4 messages 22:04
sorear TimToady wants to make explicit the fact that 'orelse' topicalizes $!
lizmat should these types of info not be part of the docs?
sorear rpn: Int orelse say $! 22:05
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&orelse"␤ at /tmp/Gocg0GMqW7 line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
..rakudo 962b9b, niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
sorear would appear that the $! topicalization is not currently implemented by anyone
TimToady nobody actually implements that part yet
sorear should we document stuff that isn't implemented? 22:06
lizmat perhaps not… :-)
diakopter if not, which implementations would have to implement it to qualify
masak 'night, #perl6
TimToady it's not actually as important as having 'andthen' topicalize $_, I think, since one is usually more interested in adding successful constraints than unsuccessful ones 22:07
lizmat 'night masak, and 'night #perl6
TimToady if STD is any indication, failure just implies backtracking, and you're not usually interested in why it failed
in regex terms, || doesn't usually care why the left side didn't match
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TimToady if you look at the P5 output of STD, there are more than 1000 instances of 'my $C=shift;', generally used to pass in the last candidate (or candidates, if it's a lazy list) 22:10
those are what are supposed to be replaced by the topicilization of 'andthen' 22:11
*cal
those are candidate cursors in the case of STD, but they can be any backtracking choice points 22:12
that's how we're trying to get P6 close to the notion of logic programming 22:13
it's most of what you need to write a unification engine, I think
just need something resembling junction processing to handle all the threading through binding unbound parameter slots 22:16
diakopter TimToady: does Perl 6 throw an exception if an array or hash is modified by another thread while being iterated? or what? 22:18
TimToady we're looking at a single-owner mechanism that might catch that, and perhaps implement rw/readonly params as well 22:20
it would imply every write operation has to check ownership though
but reads would be free for the non-owner 22:21
one could implement an exclusive iterator that claims ownership under that view
diakopter ok, multiple can iterate
oh
TimToady but we'd rather push things toward immutable semantics by default
and some things will always just be erroneous, I suspect 22:22
diakopter "we're looking at"..?
TimToady talked about it at YAPC::EU 22:23
or maybe it was in Perl, don't remmeber
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diakopter so.. describe what you're leaning towards 22:25
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diakopter iterators take read locks and a writer waits for a write lock? 22:26
iterators take read locks and a writer fails on writing?
a 2nd iterator blocks until the first is done? 22:27
I guess I need "a single-owner mechanism that might catch that, and perhaps implement rw/readonly params" explained more 22:29
TimToady well, for scalar access, it's simply the owner can write, and anyone else can read (assuming these operations are fast and appear to be atomic) 22:32
there is more than one model of composite behavior however 22:33
you can have transactionally protected iterators that have "snapshot" semantics 22:34
diakopter a lock-free, wait-free, non-blocking hash implementation I saw does that for iteration
er, redundant 22:35
TimToady or you can just say "it's erroneous to modify something that people are iterating through, if that results in inconsistent data"
22:35 rindolf left
diakopter where inconsistent data would mean not seeing one of the keys available at the start of the iteration, or seeing a key twice 22:36
TimToady under the single-owner model, you'd handle the transactions by having the transaction manager be the owner for enough of the time to direct traffic
diakopter if the hash implementation can handle it, can concurrent iterations/writes be allowed? 22:37
TimToady or just violating some constraint
"all these things need to add up to 42" 22:38
presumably
diakopter ok; I'll assume the same for the array 22:39
TimToady but Perl's hash semantics don't guarantee that
(currently)
one could also set up some kind of generational hash, where an iterator knows which generation it's iteerating and ignores new values 22:41
and deleted values don't get GC'd until nobody is interested in that generation anymore
leont A lock-free hash? I'm not sure it'd be possible, but would more strongly doubt it's performance 22:42
TimToady but there are external things that look Associative that we may have difficult enforcing transcational support for
leont No common architecture has stuff instructions like DWCAS that are necessary to do interesting things in a sane yet lock-free way 22:43
TimToady so I'm not sure Associative should imly that by default
and some of these things may be hard on some VMs
diakopter this looks interesting: www.cs.rice.edu/~javaplt/javadoc/co...shMap.html 22:44
TimToady but I do like the owner model, if only because it resembles a capabilities model rather than a prohibitions model
diakopter ^ public domain 22:45
leont doesn't like the owner model, TBH
TimToady dislikes the idea of using proxies to prevent writing 22:46
when most processing involves reading rather than writing
writes violate immutability, so writes should bear the overhead, not reads 22:47
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TimToady it's also nicely transitive; if you aren't the owner, you can't give away ownership either 22:48
leont diakopter: that link is interesting 22:49
TimToady so if we use such a model for parameters, a readonly parameter that you pass down to another routine is still readonly without any extra effort
diakopter leont: it depends a lot on the semantics of Java's volatile, so I don't know how easy it would be to mimic in another standalone VM 22:50
also there isn't a way to store ints or floats as values to the keys; only references
leont It's fairly easy to do C++11, and fairly easy but generally unportable to do in C on most architectures
TimToady diakopter: an implementation using that might restrict keys to boxed values, I suppose 22:51
leont Can't comment on specific VMs though
diakopter the reason is it depends on sentinels and boxed values as another form of marker 22:52
sentinels for both keys and values
TimToady my %foo{int} would be forbidden, but my %foo{Int} okay
diakopter aww
leont: I'm interested in reading about how to do Java 'volatile' in C - do you have some links? 22:54
TimToady and the owner model accounts for the large majority of bindings being readonly without regard to whether the caller has ownership 22:55
leont diakopter: it's essentially using volatiles too, but you only use atomic operations
22:56 xinming left
diakopter leont: ok; thx 22:56
TimToady and the default for a readonly binding is to do nothing (other than making sure things are set up that the caller has a different id from the callee)
leont And sometimes memory barriers too
e.g.: gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.1.1/gc...ltins.html
TimToady and multiple writers can still be handled with proxies that send requests to the actual owner for serialization 22:58
diakopter should one try to abstract the atomic operations at the processor level or for particular compilers
22:58 xinming joined
leont C++11 did just that: en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/atomic/atomic :-) 22:59
diakopter right, but what should one do in C
processor or compiler
leont You could do the same, though small differences get annoying. GCC's functions are type-overloaded, MSVC's aren't for example 23:00
TimToady C was never a portable language, merely ubiquitous...
diakopter I wonder if they all support writing 8 bytes on 32-bit
leont Then again, most of the time you want compare-and-swap on either a pointer or an integer
I wouldn't assume any architecture can write more than its wordsize atomically 23:03
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diakopter decommute from the lonely office & 23:11
23:17 Guest8767 joined 23:18 Guest8767 is now known as Stefler
Stefler hi 23:18
23:19 integral joined, integral left, integral joined
dalek rl6-roast-data: 87320dc | coke++ | p (2 files):
today
 23:23
rl6-roast-data: dc124df | coke++ | / (4 files):
today
rl6-roast-data: 1684404 | coke++ | p (2 files):
today
rl6-roast-data: f94fc20 | coke++ | p (2 files):
today
rl6-roast-data: d2f35c5 | coke++ | / (4 files):
today
rl6-roast-data: fca7b5f | coke++ | p (2 files):
today
sorear Stefler: hi 23:26
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