»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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lue I noticed in S03 -- Multiplicative Precedence that numeric bitwise and thru numeric shift right seemingly randomly list those infixes as infix:['op'] instead of infix:<op> . Any reason as to why? (In particular, why not infix:«op»?) 00:11
geekosaur less confusing? 00:18
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geekosaur also I think at one point (and still?) code was intended to be?) generated from the spec or vice versa and guillemots didn't work in some/all implementations 00:22
lue Probably not anymore, considering it's the first I've heard mention of spec from code (or vice versa). In any case, I think in cases where <> can't be used ( e.g. the +> op ), «» would look better. But that's just me. 00:24
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grondilu why STD.pm is called so? Why not Perl6.pm? 02:43
geekosaur because it's not actually a perl 6 implementation, just a parser test for the standard
or a validator if you prefer 02:44
grondilu ok
geekosaur (I think if you search the specs you'll find that dialects are perfectly acceptable; STD.pm defines the standard dialect which is IIRC named STD) 02:45
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tewk gist.github.com/d9edb0871e19d2f915b5 03:01
Cannot look up attributes in a type object in method send at src/gen/CORE.setting:8084
I'm trying to teach myself perl6. I don't understand the above error message. 03:02
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skids tewk: In Perl6 each class has its own undefined value, which is the class itself. If you try to access an attribute in one of these, that is the error you get. 03:36
r: class A { has $.a }; my A $defined_a .= new(); $defined_a.say; my A $undefined_a; $undefined_a.a.say;
p6eval rakudo c3f565: OUTPUT«A.new(a => Any)␤Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤ in method a at src/gen/CORE.setting:1847␤ in block at /tmp/BvgehAewPV:1␤␤»
skids So the "Type Object" in the above that the error message is talking about is the class A, which is being used as the undefined value for the uninitialized variable $undefined_a 03:38
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tewk skids: that makes sense. 03:42
my new method isn't initializing the $!conn attribute. 03:43
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tewk IO::Socket::INET .get is returning a binary string. How do I convert that to a string or number? 04:35
sorear .decode(ENCODING) 04:43
tewk No such method 'decode' for invocant of type 'Str' 04:55
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sorear then it's not a binary string 05:04
binary strings have type 'Buf' 05:05
doy i think there's a recent open rakudobug about socket reads returning binary data as Str 05:07
tewk doy: Yeah I saw that, I thought there might be a work around. 05:08
I essentially want to get the numeric value of the binary string or 'Str' or whatever it is. 05:09
I'm really liking perl6. is 05:10
getrange: 1 3
niecza faster than rakudo?
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skids r: my $a = "\x2567"; $a.encode("utf16").say # If we don't insert a BOM, rfc says big-endian encoding should be used, but Wikipedia notes that M$ has managed to make that a bad assumption. 05:18
p6eval rakudo c3f565: OUTPUT«Buf:0x<67 25>␤»
skids Hmm also 'For Internet protocols, IANA has approved "UTF-16", "UTF-16BE", and "UTF-16LE"' (case insensitive), so is there any good reason for Perl6 to buck that? 05:22
doy r: my $a = "\x2567"; $a.encode("UTF-16").say 05:24
p6eval rakudo c3f565: OUTPUT«encoding 'utf-16' not found␤ in method encode at src/gen/CORE.setting:4556␤ in block at /tmp/uiCASzRq9A:1␤␤»
tewk github.com/supernovus/perl6-http-easy/issues/6 contains a workaround 05:26
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skids anyone got rakudo on a be machine? Interested to know what .encode("utf16") does there. 05:27
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skids r: my $a = "\x2567"; $a.encode("binary").decode.say 05:31
p6eval rakudo c3f565: OUTPUT«Lossy conversion to single byte encoding␤ in method encode at src/gen/CORE.setting:4556␤ in block at /tmp/1XP32B4xgK:1␤␤»
skids not a good workaround.
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lue r: my $a = "\x2567"; $a.encode("iso-8859-1").decode.say 05:45
p6eval rakudo c3f565: OUTPUT«Lossy conversion to single byte encoding␤ in method encode at src/gen/CORE.setting:4556␤ in block at /tmp/JPq_J9M2oq:1␤␤»
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lue erm, the table of precedences in S03 lists the feed operators as sequencers (one step above terminators), but their description is in the terminator section. Is this a mistake? 05:56
skids r: Buf.new(0xe2,0x8d,0x85).decode.say; Buf.new(0xc3,0xa2,0xc2,0x8d).decode.say; # Typing a U+2345 into a telnet session connected to IO::Socket::INET yields the latter. 06:09
p6eval rakudo c3f565: OUTPUT«⍅␤â␤»
FROGGS_ there is a new rakudo branch (froggs_multibyte), which fixes a bug when it comes to unicode chars 06:10
moritz is it mergable? 06:11
good morning :-)
FROGGS_ I'd say yes, but it would be awesome if you take a look first
morning ;o)
tests are in roast in same branchname
gtg to airport, yee ya later 06:16
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isBEKaml hello, #perl6! 07:10
Slightly OT: This made news on reddit - www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/16h8...ng_perl_5/ 07:11
I found his talk amusing, it'd be interesting to see what comes out of moe. :) 07:13
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grondilu rn: my @a = map { 1/$^k }, 1 .. *; # isn't that supposed to be lazy and thus not time out? 07:46
p6eval niecza v24-17-gd343a2a: OUTPUT«(timeout)Potential difficulties:␤ @a is declared but not used at /tmp/OE7HXdB9xi line 1:␤------> my ⏏@a = map { 1/$^k }, 1 .. *; # isn't tha␤␤» 07:47
..rakudo c3f565: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
quester phenny: tell masak Thank you for submitting the macro call with $_ bug (#116370). Later I tried checking whether any of the existing bugs that mention "quasi" were related and my brain exploded. Now that I look at it again, I doubt if any of them are really related.
phenny quester: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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tadzik "I had the feeling that in the long run (...) Perl 5 was a dead end". -- moritz++ august this year 08:39
moritz: you predicted all this, didn't yuo :)
(the discussion in perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=987033)
moritz tadzik: I didn't predict the Scala part :-) 08:41
tadzik details, details :) 08:43
nwc10 of course Perl 5's a dead end. What is Perl 6 all about? :-)
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moritz nwc10: many people in the Perl 5 community believe otherwise (or don't care to admit it, or whatever) 08:52
or they think that Perl 6 is an even deader end than Perl 5 :-)
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nwc10 I suspect that many people don't think. Or, more accurately, don't think through the implications of what they want. 08:54
And, I am going to stick hard on "many". Given the sampling I've had from various smart constructive productive people who should know better. 08:55
moritz to be honest, I didn't recognize Perl 5 as a dead end before I got involved with Perl 6 08:57
but then I knew little about programming languages back then
Su-Shee well there is "dead end" in technical terms and "dead end" in terms of usage.. 08:58
moritz I mean in the technical evolution 08:59
nwc10 Su-Shee: yes, thanks. Forgot that. COBOL usage is just fine
Su-Shee moritz: yes, that's what the slides are about.. just mentioning it that there are two discussion in the perl world... 09:00
nwc10: I have no idea how dead-endish cobol is in technical terms..
moritz Su-Shee: though in the (very) long run, technical dead-end implies usage dead-end too
nwc10 and if you believe the figures Tiobe pull from somewhere warm, dark and smelly, C is the most $something programming language again
despite the fact that the new C11 standard is mostly "that bit of C99 we said is mandatory, but no-one implemented. Well, it's optional now" 09:01
Su-Shee moritz: I agree.
moritz well, Tiobe's methodology is just crap
nwc10 I don't know either, but I doubt that the language has changed in years
moritz basically they search for "$language programming" on google, and count the results
nwc10 moritz: warm, dary and smelly. :-)
Su-Shee moritz: just now I'm writing some install docs for python, perl and ruby.. with python and ruby for example things like the csv and json module are part of "core" - with perl I still have to install such common stuff
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nwc10 moritz: No, I think that's what they *claim* they do. Real science can be replicated. They can't. blog.timbunce.org/2008/04/12/tiobe-...tatistics/ 09:02
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Su-Shee nwc10: I don't care for TIOBE; I go look for myself, especially when it comes to judging "tech" in europe. the typical anglosaxon discussion about "but there are plenty of perl jobs!" drives me crazy... 09:03
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jnthn morning o/ 09:03
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moritz \o jnthn 09:03
nwc10 Su-Shee: depends where you are. There seem to be plenty of Perl jobs in Vienna and in London
and that massive sucking noise from Amsterdam
Su-Shee nwc10: that is ONE company.
nwc10 jnthn: it won't last :-)
Su-Shee ONE
nwc10: also, London is part of the anglosaxon world :)
nwc10 Su-Shee: I'm well aware that it's one company
but, that ONE company actually causes problems for the other firms in Amsterdam that use Perl, as they can't recruit. So give up. 09:04
Su-Shee nwc10: here - roughly speaking - it's split between tons of java jobs (really tons), pleny of PHP, plenty of c/c++ (though no domain perl has ever been in), and the startuppy stuff rails/node/sometimes python 09:05
jnthn nwc10: ...the morning? :)
nwc10: Good thing is, there's a new one each day :)
nwc10 jnthn: yes. Afternoon is already sneaking up from behind, ready to mug it 09:06
Su-Shee though perl jobs on jobs.perl.org tripled in 2012.. a whopping 6 instead of 2. ;)
DrEeevil haha, I know that One Company :)
nwc10 Su-Shee: and in two years time the startuppy stuff will be on something differently trendy?
Su-Shee DrEeevil: by now, we all have friends and relatives there ;)
DrEeevil hehe
Su-Shee nwc10: as long as it's web based..
DrEeevil Su-Shee: I've considered letting them absorb me, but I'm too lazy for that
Su-Shee nwc10: another thing I'm looking at: which language is used as a "binding" for tools, apps, libs - that has been perl, now it's python usally. or what languages are used to be embedded? (lua, js). or what languages are books written in by language-independent subjects? (python)... 09:08
nwc10 I suspect it's not "anglosaxon world" I suspec that it's clustered.
Cambridge has few to zero Perl jobs
Su-Shee nwc10: or, the broad range of tools to use in everyday tech companies.. how many of those are perl-based? nagios certainly. spamassassin. and then it gets fewer and fewer... 09:09
nwc10: doesn't cambridge count more as a typical university-influenced city?
nwc10 and who isn't writing them?
Su-Shee nwc10: "me", so to speak.
nwc10: thought the question is: would I write it in perl - having one eye on career and reputation and such - would you? 09:10
nwc10 I would. But also, I have a reputation. I'm not typical.
DrEeevil Su-Shee: if the problem fits perl well ... why use something else? 09:11
Su-Shee DrEeevil: because I wonder how many people choose a perl tool these days.. if you already have 3/4 of your toolchain and devops stuff and whatnot in e.g. ruby.. 09:14
nwc10: it was an example ;)
DrEeevil Su-Shee: less and less, but for text processing it's still about the easiest and fastest 09:15
ruby ... bah ...
don't write shell in ruby, please. it only makes people sad.
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Su-Shee it's a very nice language. 09:16
I've written some code in r, perl, python and ruby and js over the last weeks and the ruby stuff usally is not just shorter than perl but also very readable. ;)
(unless it's R, but that's specifically made for my stuff.. :) 09:17
DrEeevil no, it's not nice
especially once you try to rely on the ecosystem (dare I say gem ?)
Su-Shee DrEeevil: so, what is not nice about _the language_? 09:18
DrEeevil Su-Shee: back read it wards! is brain not like order
Su-Shee DrEeevil: ?! 09:19
DrEeevil it is exactly how I would not write :)
maybe I'm not japanese enough ...
Su-Shee yeah because %hash.keys is UTTERLY different from hash.keys .. ;)
DrEeevil 5.times( ...)
*stab*
Su-Shee what? it even reads out loud properly?! 09:20
DrEeevil also most of the ruby I've had to read was written by people that found php too difficult
"asdfgh".times() does what?
:)
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Su-Shee DrEeevil: oh so now it's the language's fault if people write shitty code in it? didn't we have that exact same argument about perl? ;) 09:21
DrEeevil: but whatever..
DrEeevil Su-Shee: well, the grammar trips me up, and then it's bad code too 09:22
at least perl tends to remove the bad coders because things just get unmaintainable :)
FROGGS[mobile] the question is more: can you write good code in it 09:23
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DrEeevil FROGGS[mobile]: in theory yes, but like java you won't be able to use any thirdparty libs and so on 09:24
FROGGS[mobile] you cant write beautiful and readable code in php for example
DrEeevil which then makes it a very frustrating exercise
FROGGS[mobile] thats a point then 09:25
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FROGGS[mobile] but its the ppls fault if they write ugly stuff when it can be better 09:26
DrEeevil hrm. most people learn by example
so if you never see "good" code, how do you end up figuring out what it is?
FROGGS[mobile] you dont want to see what my collegue is doing :o)
tadzik yeah, and then they go to #perl and say "what's wrong with my «open F, $user_input»"
FROGGS[mobile] hmm 09:27
tadzik "people write bad code in it" is not an argument for anything
imho
DrEeevil tadzik: I've seen people use perl because "bash can't do string manipulation" 09:28
FROGGS[mobile] DrEeevil: I believe you can imagine how it can look like by looking at the syntax
isBEKaml I'd say it's not the language's fault that people write bad code in it. That feels like ranting to the wall, IMHO.
DrEeevil so they just called perl to do $1 --blah $2 $3
tadzik DrEeevil: I sometimes use Perl beacuse I can't write a loop in bash :>
DrEeevil tadzik: ugh. uhm. bad boy ;) but at least you don't use ruby for bash loops
tadzik I never remember the syntax
isBEKaml tadzik: heck, I don't remember the syntax for anything. :) 09:29
tadzik: I can't even (...)
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tadzik bash is weird 09:29
FROGGS[mobile] well, that might be the language's fault
tadzik I usually refuse to call bash a programming language :) 09:30
DrEeevil it's very useful glue :)
moritz bash is primary a shell, only secondary a programming language
arnsholt Shell script is evil. I write programs in shell only very reluctantly
DrEeevil arnsholt: if everyone thought like that we'd have a lot less silly code around 09:32
nwc10 DrEeevil: the (frustrating) hosting company that ex-employer used (politics) wrote shell scripts that used perl as a better sed
DrEeevil nwc10: that's not so bad ...
nwc10 I should add that I approved of this foot in the door, and hoped that they'd end up using Perl for more 09:33
DrEeevil it's better than cronjobs written in php 09:36
FROGGS[mobile] we haz them ó.ò 09:37
I replaced a few with perl5 jobs, but not all yet 09:38
DrEeevil FROGGS[mobile]: do you need an angry german-yelling admin/devops person to clean up? ;)
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FROGGS[mobile] well, thats me, I'm all-in-one 09:43
our admins are really just windows and network admins 09:44
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dalek ast: 055cb13 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | S04-declarations/my.t:
check for anonymous &, too.
 09:56
bbkr__ good morning perl6 09:58
jnthn o/ bbkr__ 09:59
tadzik hi bbkr__
dalek ast: 60bc178 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | S04-declarations/my.t:
remove warnings (use of Any in string context)
 10:01
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pmurias hi 10:15
jnthn: is the way you are supposed to use,get and release memory different in how JVM expects you too and nqp-jvm does different? 10:17
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pmurias jnthn: that's what chromatic claims in his blog post 10:17
arnsholt I asked about thata while back. It seems noone's entirely sure what he's thinking of, ATM 10:20
nwc10 that was my impression too 10:21
arnsholt irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-01-10#i_6316569
jnthn Uh, talking about how *the developer* releases memory on the JVM is a weird thing to do given that it has automatic memory management.
And when you do .CREATE on a P6opaque, you create a single, perfectly normal, JVM object.
Which uses fields (yes, JVM level fields) for storing attributes. 10:22
Including "has num $!x;" mapping down to a double field.
nwc10 crazy talk. It will never catch on. 10:23
jnthn About the only thing you could possibly complain about being unusual is that it creates that instance through the reflection interface. That, too, is something that can be optimized away to a normal "new" op if needed.
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jnthn So, in summary, chromatic is - one again - talking bullshit about my work. 10:24
*once
arnsholt Oh, well. Development is proceeding nicely, which is good 10:25
And at the present speed, I may have to try to submit a Java talk after all =D 10:26
The call for speakers opens february 1st
nwc10 development would accelerate if more people played with it
arnsholt Yeah, it's on my todo-heap
tadzik arnsholt: call for what speakers?
arnsholt tadzik: JavaZone
Big Norwegian Java conference =) 10:27
tadzik will they show a new movie? :)
arnsholt I sure hope so =D
At any rate, it might be amusing to submit a Perl talk to a Java conference 10:28
jnthn arnsholt: When is the conference
?
nwc10 jz13.java.no/ -- 11-12th September, 2013 10:30
jnthn Oh, that's ages in the future!
nwc10 what matters more is when the call for papers closes
arnsholt I'm not sure, unfortunately 10:33
AFAICT, the website only says that it opens on the 1st of february
timotimo ah, but of course nqp-jvm is written in nqp, too 10:40
arnsholt Sure. The idea is to sell it as a "new JVM language" talk 10:41
And hope that the sheer unexpectedness of seeing Perl and JVM in the same sentence gets them to accept the talk ^_^ 10:42
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jnthn :D 10:44
It's very possible the NativeCall stuff could be ported by then also :)
arnsholt Yeah, I'd kind of like it to be 10:45
'Cause then the talk goes from "mildly interesting" to "has awesome features"
nwc10 which native is native? Java? Or C? 10:46
arnsholt NativeCall is C-interop
moritz we'll have a SemiNativeCall for calling Java then? :-)
arnsholt Hehe
au maybe we can call it Lingo or something :)
hoelzro has anyone had a chance to try the pygments highlighter I wrote? 10:47
I was hoping for a little more feedback at this point =/
arnsholt So, in nqp-jvm-prep, it wants src/*.java to compile to bin/*.class, and uses 3rdparty/bcel/bcel-5.2.jar as the only external dependency?
tadzik hoelzro: I'll try it on some of my code once I get back home 10:48
jnthn arnsholt: yeah
hoelzro \o/
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jnthn hoelzro: Linky? 10:48
arnsholt Hmm. That shouldn't be too hard to hack into the Makefile
hoelzro jnthn: bitbucket.org/hoelzro/pygments-main 10:49
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jnthn arnsholt: Go for it, the current build story is le suck, as nwc10++ found out ;) 10:49
hoelzro I sent a link out 2 weeks ago to perl6-users and on perl.reddit.com
timotimo hoelzro: any tips on how to try it out successfully?
nwc10 arnsholt: right now it's also hardcoding a call to `javac`, which I supplied as a shell scrip wrapping gcj
but those seemed to be the only fun bits
hoelzro timotimo: just download it and run python2 pygmentize -l perl6 $perl6_file
nwc10 oh, and you need a *really* new nqp. newer than Rakudo defaults to 10:50
timotimo sounds good :)
tadzik hoelzro: is it in this py-pan, so you can pip install it?
hoelzro tadzik: I'm not familiar with python module installation (last I tried I started to cry blood), but it's not officially released yet if that's what you're asking 10:51
I want people to try it before I ask upstream to merge it
timotimo pip can take a hg:// for installation
hoelzro oh, neat 10:52
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tadzik kewl 10:52
hoelzro does pip suck less than easy_install?
easy_install is a bit of an oxymoron, in my experience.
timotimo jnthn: i asked a java-savvy friend how to best do the java building in nqp-jvm. he suggests sbt (scala build tool), because it doesn't need any configuration files or commandline args whatsoever 10:53
tadzik I think pip is sort of a cpanm of python 10:54
timotimo hoelzro: it sucks a bit less, but it doesn't handle binaries well. (actual binaries, that is. not python scripts with a #!)
hoelzro I see
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timotimo so for almost all projects you want to install, pip is good. it can even uninstall packages! 10:55
hoelzro: the way $*W is highlighted is strange. the $ and W are dark red, the * in the middle is bright red and underlined 10:56
hoelzro interesting...can you paste the script you're highlighting? 10:57
I'd like to collect a body of examples for regression testing
I have a neat little suite of scripts to check for regressions
timotimo it's just rakudo/src/Perl6/Actions.pm
jnthn Good news: 10:58
timotimo it can probably be very easily golfed
jnthn On 04:58 PM, December 19, 2012 UTC, you have submitted a reclassification request to Trend Micro. We have processed your request and below is the result.
URL hxxp://rakudo.org
New Safety Rating (originally rated as "Dangerous" by Trend Micro)
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jnthn Safe 10:58
hoelzro interesting...
timotimo hoelzro: $<colonpair> has got a problem, too. the $ and colonpair are dark red, the < is like the * in $*W and the > is white 10:59
jnthn So now the RT ticket about rakudo.org being blacklisted can be closed :)
arnsholt jnthn: Is compiling the Java code from the Makefile a must-have, or is ant an alternative as well?
hoelzro how odd...I thought I tested that!
timotimo other than that the highlighting seems pretty perfect
nwc10 is there a regression test for it? :-)
hoelzro \o/
timotimo (and now it turns out i've been checking out the branch *without* your work on it :P) 11:00
hoelzro ? 11:01
jnthn arnsholt: Makefile is probably what most people who build Rakudo today will expect/be ready for, I guess.
arnsholt Yeah, and there's other stuff depending on the Makefile
jnthn arnsholt: I'm not sure that telling people "please go install this other build tool" will help adoption...
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arnsholt There is that, but it's complaining about ant would be kind of like complaining about make for building C libs 11:02
The thing is that doing it via the Makefile is likely to be brittle
timotimo can't the makefile just call ant? 11:03
arnsholt That was my idea
timotimo ah, ok
arnsholt Have a build.xml that compiles src/ to bin/ and then "bin: ; ant" in the Makefile
jnthn ant doesn't come with a JVM install, though?
arnsholt No, in that sense it's third-party
jnthn Is ant easily installable? 11:04
arnsholt It's possible to do in the Makefile, but then you'd have to communicate the dependency graph between Java files in the Makefile to get the code to compile properly I think
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arnsholt Yeah, ant is pretty straightforward 11:04
For Unixen it's in the package manager, but Windows as well isn't too hard IIRC 11:06
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nwc10 which means you're assuming local root. Which is reasonable. But not 100% 11:07
the machine I built it on, I'm not root
arnsholt If you don't have root you'll have to install it to $HOME, yeah
nwc10 the clincher here seems to be "dependency graph between Java files"
arnsholt Yeah 11:08
With ant you can just say "compile all the Java files in src/ to bin/"
Which cuts down on drudgery
nwc10 so, making it easy for the Makefile to use a locally installed ant if necessary feels like the trade off to shoot for 11:09
arnsholt FWIW, installing Ant as non-root is a matter of downloading and unzipping, adding a directory to $PATH and adding an envvar (assuming you have a working Java) 11:11
tadzik my experience with javac is that when you tell it to compile a .java file, it automagically compiles all the deps as well 11:12
arnsholt I thought javac was supposed to do that, but I get lots of errors about symbols it can't find 11:13
Might be because of packages
jnthn Can't you feed an entire list of .java files to javac?
arnsholt Yeah, I can
But then I'd scavenge the list of files with `find src -name \*.java` which isn't terribly Windows-friendly 11:14
jnthn dir src\*.java /b/s :) 11:16
tadzik use perl -MFile::Find :P 11:17
nwc10 which would work on VMS too 11:18
jnthn :)
nwc10 OK, except for the command line quoting being different again
tadzik just harcode it and add a commit-hook :P 11:19
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arnsholt Yeah, looks like javac doesn't autoresolve across packages 11:27
javac -cp 3rdparty/bcel/bcel-5.2.jar -d bin src/org/perl6/nqp/{sixmodel{,/reprs},runtime}/*.java does the trick 11:28
jnthn oooh!
javac: file not found: src\org\perl6\nqp\{sixmodel{,\reprs},runtime}\*.java 11:29
Dang!
arnsholt I assume that kind of quoting doesn't work on Windows? =)
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arnsholt is overly familiar with bash 11:29
(Which is why I refuse to program in it unless I can't avoid it)
jnthn: Is there some documentation I can read about the Windows make? 11:30
So I at least can try to make my Makefile hacks compatible 11:31
jnthn msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd9y37ha.aspx
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isBEKaml arnsholt++ # hacking with ants. :P 11:31
tadzik: javac doesn't compile in all dependencies, it looks into the classpath you provide and if none of those files were compiled, compiles them. Maybe, since you talk of dependency management, you're looking for maven? :) 11:32
tadzik: maven.apache.org 11:33
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arnsholt Yeah, I'm not sure how feasible it is to replace the opcode emitting to something else 14:48
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tadzik ah well, it may be emiting code while running it, or whatnot 14:50
pmurias just writing a new parser seems saner 14:51
tadzik didn't TimToady++ write one during PRS?
arnsholt Yeah, I think STD_P5 is a more viable approach 14:52
pmurias there is Perlito5
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rurban tadzik: I want to rewrite the parser and keep it compatible. Larry also 14:56
PerlJam you want to rewrite Larry and keep him compatible?
tadzik may be hard to rewrite Larry in his runtime 14:57
rurban I'll try Ian Piumarta's peg/leg for parsing
I think it will be better and cleaner. (And faster of course) 14:58
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tadzik oh, that looks interesting 14:58
I wish I knew about this before I stared my uni project in lex and yacc 14:59
rurban look for potion (why the lucky stiff's project) 15:00
github.com/fogus/potion
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arnsholt Doing it in lex and yacc you're going to run into a lot of the same problems that plague perl, really 15:04
The lexer is lex-based I think
Can't remember if yacc is involved as well, but it might be
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rurban Did you guys also see Stevan Little's moe (perl5 in scala)? 15:09
Su-Shee rurban: yes \o/ the slides and the repo are making the rounds. :)
PerlJam saw it this morning, in fact. 15:10
rurban I'll have something more realistic and better some time soon.
PerlJam better how? 15:12
rurban smaller, faster, less insanity 15:13
no XS, only FFI. everything is an object (as in parrot) and typed. immutable strings. gc, auto-threaded 15:14
Jitted for intel
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PerlJam sounds awesome. 15:15
Su-Shee rurban: BETTER AND more REALISTIC? that's.. gimme gimme gimme? :)
timotimo rurban: your project is for perl5 compatibility, too, right?
rurban better is easy. more realistic than scala and jvm is also easy. 15:16
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PerlJam tentatively believes in rurban's dream. 15:16
rurban yes, codename p2
Su-Shee rurban: are you going to name it "country AND western Perl"? ;)
timotimo it's that easy?
rurban p2 - a modern perl
PerlJam timotimo: it's just *THAT* easy!
rurban floats and regex are hard
timotimo sounds like something out of a steve jobs keynote
Su-Shee rurban: I remember vaguely having read your name in context of FFI support some time ago already... 15:17
rurban I'll just steal from the best
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PerlJam rurban: That's the way to do it. (After looking at the moe repo, I wondered why stevan didn't steal more) 15:17
rurban But a nqp backend could also be possible
github.com/rurban/potion/blob/mast...TERNALS.md 15:18
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bluescreen10 rurban: how soon? any repo to have a sneak peak? 15:43
dalek p-jvm-prep: 488ad0f | (Jonathan Stafford)++ | / (4 files):
fixes documentation of nqp::sha1

Fixes documentation of nqp::sha1 (it's a serialization context opcode, not a string opcode), and reorganizes its test code.
p-jvm-prep: f76ad1b | (Jonathan Stafford)++ | / (4 files):
implements nqp::exit
p-jvm-prep: 5208842 | (Jonathan Stafford)++ | / (4 files):
implements nqp::sleep
p-jvm-prep: fa69397 | (Jonathan Stafford)++ | / (6 files):
Merge remote-tracking branch 'upstream/master'
p-jvm-prep: e2419b4 | jonathan++ | / (6 files):
Merge pull request #6 from thecabinet/master

cleanup of nqp::sha1; implement nqp::exit and nqp::sleep
rurban a month or so. perl examples/benchmarks/fib.pl 28 0.439s parrot examples/benchmarks/fib.pir 28 1.746s potion examples/benchmarks/fib.pn 28 0.013s 15:44
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rurban jvm not yet 15:44
moritz what's potion? 15:45
rurban github.com/rurban/potion/
A fast little language
dalek p-jvm-prep: 3be0d3b | jnthn++ | docs/LHF.md:
arnsholt++ did this task.
rurban by some famous ex-ruby guy
PerlJam apparently something why did before he dropped off the face of the universe
rurban felix is also good, but needs ocaml for bootstrapping 15:46
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bluescreen10 rurban: and you trying to add p5 syntax and semantics to it? 15:46
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rurban yes 15:47
plus more
[Coke] p: say 9426 / 24593
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«0.3832797950636359939820274061724881063717␤»
rurban types (str, int, num as objects), dlcall (ffi)
bluescreen10 rurban: that's an interesting experiment
rurban and threads and a GC 15:48
PerlJam rurban: beware the "pre-announcement"
rurban DESTROY methods run at scope exit
it will under ofun.pm
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rurban it will be ... 15:48
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[Coke] pugs'll be back to 38% tomorrow or so, I think. 15:50
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Su-Shee [Coke]: you're reactivating pugs? :) 15:55
[Coke] Su-Shee: it's been on life support for a while. it runs a little under 40% of the number of spec tests that rakudo does at this point. 15:56
PerlJam Su-Shee: he's keeping pugs on life-support
Su-Shee oha :)
[Coke] Su-Shee: see github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/b...pass_rates
making it easy for someone who speaks haskell to fix things up. 15:57
(and, to be fair, au++ is doing all the hard work on the haskell side. I just fudged a lot of tests and automated a test suite run.) 15:58
[Coke] thinks both he and au think they got the easy job on that one.
au that's the best kind of division :) 15:59
PerlJam thinks both [Coke] and au are correct. ;) 16:00
[Coke] agreed!
au: I tried to get it running on my laptop, no love with the macport ghc. 16:02
Might I have better luck with www.haskell.org/platform/ ?
au very probably.
also try "cabal install regex-pcre-builtin-0.94.4.4.8.31 Pugs" to get the UTF8 build 16:03
[Coke] will try that when he's off $work network. Danke. 16:04
au glad to help :)
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au have a good localtime hackers \o & 16:05
PerlJam au: you too!
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rurban haskell ghc got much faster recently I heard. Are there benchmarks against parrot/rakudo? 16:09
[Coke] pugs has historically been pretty fast in the subset of perl6 it provides. pretty sure there are no recent benchmarksl. 16:10
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dalek ast: dee9fde | (Timo Paulssen)++ | S06-traits/is-copy.t:
test for RT #74430: index and is copy interaction
 16:28
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timotimo feels nice to close old bugs without having to change anything in the code, but something's lacking :| 16:39
(my rakudo-internal-knowledge is, for instance)
FROGGS timotimo: well, you learn the internals by looking/checking these tickets
timotimo well, in this case i didn't even see the internals, i just wrote a test because the problem had already been fixed ;) 16:40
usually the code to reproduce the bugs are in the ticket, too (which is great!), so i don't even have to hunt
is the code itself the best (only?) place for learning how QAST works?
FROGGS ya, I mean you learn about the traits and how they should work and how it is in real life... 16:41
timotimo :D
jnthn timotimo: github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/d...t.markdown is not complete, but a start
timotimo (idly thinking about the rakudo internals tour screencast - wether or not creating a tiny language that emits QAST would be a good idea or silly/inappropriate-for-the-format)
ah, i went straight for QAST::Want, and that's one of the few undocumented ones. just my luck! :D 16:42
but thanks very much! seems like a good start indeed.
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[Coke] wonders what version of pugs the evalbot is running. 16:54
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timotimo didn't it use to say that at the beginning of the result? 16:55
pugs: say "hello coke"
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«hello coke␤»
timotimo apparently not!
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[Coke] r: say "eek" 16:56
p6eval rakudo c3f565: OUTPUT«eek␤»
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FROGGS okay, so whats our plan for today? 17:10
jnthn Mine is finish $dayjob tasks, cook some mushroom/bacon pasta stuff, nom it, then hack Perl 6 things :) 17:11
FROGGS "nom it", I see a connection there
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jnthn ;) 17:11
Su-Shee I see more of a bacon connection.. ;)
skids I have always suspected "nom" did not actually stand for "new object model" 17:13
timotimo it was all a ruse! 17:14
TimToady well, it's perfectly okay for something to mean more than one thing at once
FROGGS --> de.webfail.com/dd0c76cf3a4
TimToady Just because I'm tired when I yawn doesn't mean you're not boring... :) 17:15
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[Coke] p: say 9475 / 24593 17:18
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«0.3852722319359167242711340625381206034237␤»
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nwc10 TimToady: do you remember which bugtracker the IDs such as NETaa13369 are? eg at this line perl5.git.perl.org/perl.git/blob/pe...anges#l661 17:22
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TimToady probably ClearCase 17:30
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TimToady the NET is for NetLabs 17:31
[Coke] has horrible CC flashbacks.
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nwc10 TimToady: aha. thanks. So, all internal? 17:38
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TimToady yeah 17:41
nwc10 ah OK. thanks. 17:42
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TimToady data probably scrapped by Seagate Software or Veritas long ago 17:42
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diakopter nqp-jvm could use a make clean 18:17
jnthn Indeed. Go for it. :)
(can make it portable same way the mkdir is)
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diakopter dalek lost my push to nqp-jvm 18:40
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diakopter jnthn: are you going to rename nqp-jvm-prep to nqp-jvm? 18:46
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jeffreykegler Is there a Perl 6 spec for the format of its abstract syntax tress? 18:49
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jeffreykegler I'd be interesting in the concrete ones too, but I read that there is no such thing in Perl 6 18:49
* tress -> trees
diakopter see the classes here: github.com/perl6/nqp/tree/master/src/QAST 18:50
jeffreykegler diakopter: thanks 18:51
nwc10 that's an answer for "Rakudo", not for "Perl 6". Because (you're right), it's not specified as part of Perl 6
jeffreykegler diakoper read me right, I was interesting in anything Perl6-centric 18:52
* interesting -> interested 18:53
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TimToady our intent was to let the various implementations negotiate that, but mostly only rakudo has been negotiating lately... 19:02
jeffreykegler TimToady: as usual I am here trying to borrow ideas 19:04
I want to see how the Perl 6 folks are doing it
OO and all that
My idea is that my parser could get a start on the work of the semantics 19:05
Not finish it just start 19:06
The advantage is the "head start" could be coded in C and/or XS
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nwc10 thought that niecza was still on speaking terms 19:06
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TimToady sure, but sorear++ is interested in many things, not just ASTs :) 19:11
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jnthn back from dinner 19:16
diakopter: no
The repo description is still in sync with intent: "Preparatory work for NQP and Rakudo on JVM. Temporary repo; will be incorporated into NQP eventually" :) 19:17
diakopter oh; missed that 19:18
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dalek rl6-roast-data: 1617365 | coke++ | / (4 files):
today (automated commit)
 19:18
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Ulti I wish you guys hadn't spoken about perl golfing... I've spent a whole day trying to get the best golf for nCk ;___; 19:46
jnthn
.oO( ...the hole day... )
 19:48
Ulti lol 19:49
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nwc10 good news - he's here all week 19:50
huf i thought he was jnthn
Ulti I really don't understand how the top golfers do it, unless they get around having to write 'print'
huf say? 19:51
Ulti I'm also hoping perl6 is a lot less golfable than perl5, I think the olde perl golf is probably what gives Perl the bad rap to the outside world
huf its all perl 5.8 on codegolf.com
huf hmm, it might count, but i think the insane amount of cargo culted broken perl4 code is more responsible
PerlJam you're both wrong. :) 19:52
huf :)
Ulti yeah I imagine perl4 is still wandering around in production some place (scary)
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PerlJam Ulti: there's an old node on perlmonks (I think) that explains how the best golfers do it. 19:53
nwc10 I've heard specific rumours of at least one place still using some Perl 4. Can't confirm it though
Ulti I'm in the top 30% for this golf at least... yay
PerlJam: I dont think I want to get too pro otherwise it will bleed into my every day programming :) 19:55
I'd rather do some perl6 and write cleaner perl :D
nwc10 me too
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jnthn grumbles about the API for SCs... 20:10
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jnthn Guess I should actually take a moment to design it. 20:11
(It...evolved...) 20:12
nwc10 a bad workman blames his tools. A bad programmer blames evolution? :-)
jnthn Something like :) 20:13
nwc10 sure, it isn't intelligent design, but look on the bright side. At least it's not flying spaghetti monster code.
masak attempts to think of a joke about "unintelligent designer" that doesn't come across as a giant insult, but fails
phenny masak: 07:46Z <quester> tell masak Thank you for submitting the macro call with $_ bug (#116370). Later I tried checking whether any of the existing bugs that mention "quasi" were related and my brain exploded. Now that I look at it again, I doubt if any of them are really related.
jnthn It's also not spread over a bunch of places, so it's not hard to sort it out.
.oO( The fact it isn't spread all over the place is probably a sign of at least something being right... :) )
 20:14
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nwc10 masak: I had a hard enough time figuring out that response. There must be a better one, but it eluded me 20:14
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masak 'night, #perl6 20:28
FROGGS gnight
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[Coke] nwc10++ # latest perl5 status report. 20:46
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dalek p: 7c8021d | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
Replace a couple of pir op uses with nqp ops.

Just some assorted ones where we already have the NQP op defined.		 21:14
p: 4e51b4c | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
Add an nqp:: op API for working with SCs.

It replaces a rather non-uniform mix of v-table calls, method calls and pirops. Probably there are a few more needed, but this covers the majority.
p: aa64ea7 | jnthn++ | src/stage0/ (9 files):
Update bootstrap so we can use the SC ops in NQP.
p: ff51c75 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
Start using the nqp:: ops for SC handling.
p: 9815308 | jnthn++ | t/serialization/0 (3 files):
Start updating SC tests to use new ops.
Rotwang1 is there working LWP::Simple for rakudo 2012.12 somewhere on the internetz? 21:16
tadzik I think moritz++'s version is the one closest to working 21:17
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tadzik not sure where it lives now though 21:18
japhb_ [Coke] or nwc10 : Link to perl5 status report in question?
nwc10 I assume that he means this: news.perlfoundation.org/2013/01/imp...rt-12.html 21:20
japhb_ Thank you! 21:21
Rotwang1 tadzik: it is nowhere to be found, I'll just use sockets then
[; 21:22
tadzik :P 21:23
moritz: ping-o
or maybe the stock one just works with rakudo fresh enough
Rotwang1: thing is, sockets were mostly broken recently
Parrot changing API and this sort of crap
Rotwang1 ok 21:24
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Rotwang1 so is there anything I can use to fetch data from a webserver? 21:24
PerlJam Is that really the interesting part that must be in Perl 6? 21:25
tadzik well, does LWP::Simple not work for you?
PerlJam: everything is interesting in Perl 6 :) 21:26
Rotwang1 tadzik: no it doesn't
tadzik Rotwang1: how fresh is your rakudo?
PerlJam If it were me, I'd usually just use curl or something to get the data I wanted and Perl 6 would then manipulate it in various ways.
Rotwang1 2012.12 with parrot 4.10
tadzik "RT #116288: $socket.read($bytes) now retruns $bytes btyes, if available" commit is from Wed Jan 9 21:27
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tadzik so you either have to go bleeding-edge-ish, or just use Perl as a glue and use curl like PerlJam says :) 21:27
Rotwang1 tadzik: what does panda use? 21:28
tadzik Rotwang1: oh, it uses Parrot's LWP::UserAgent via pir
Rotwang1 ok
dalek p-jvm-prep: 7cc3f08 | jnthn++ | lib/QAST/JASTCompiler.nqp:
Compile QAST::WVal.

Note that there's no SC support yet so it doesn't actually work when run. However, since compiling attribute access depends on it, it was obscuring the many other things that need work in nqp-mo.pm.
tadzik Rotwang1: github.com/tadzik/panda/blob/maste...tem.pm#L12 21:29
may be good enough for your purposes
timotimo i don't really get why this function has to be PIR :| 21:31
tadzik I should maybe release it as a module :P
timotimo: well, couple of reasons 21:32
1) wget isn't available everywhere
2) LWP::Simple has quite a lot of dependencies
3) LWP::Simple is broken more often than I feel comfortable with
4) Panda runs only on Rakudo-on-Parrot anyway
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Rotwang1 why "Panda runs only on Rakudo-on-Parrot"? 21:33
tadzik because Niecza doesn't support typed exceptions, to which Panda moved some time ago 21:34
and I didn't try any other implementation than those 2
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timotimo i may have miscommunicated my confusion. why exactly is it PIR code, rather than perl6 code? 21:35
is LWP::UserAgent written in raw PIR? who would do such a thing?
Rotwang1 isn't that the point of having man
tadzik timotimo: it's a Parrot module, yes
Rotwang1 crap
PerlJam welcome to the wonderful world of bleeding-edge software
tadzik not a Perl 6 module
timotimo all right 21:36
Rotwang1 isn't that the point of having many perl6 implementations, that you should actually abstract from how is it implemented?
tadzik so it's either written in raw PIR... or worse
[Coke] one of the points of parrot is provide libs that can be shared across multiple languages.
tadzik Rotwang1: it is. But I think it was the best possible choice given the circumstances
Rotwang1: if panda actually ran on anything other than Rakudo, I would figure out something else
Rotwang1 tadzik: ok
tadzik like falling back to Perl 5 :> 21:37
no, that wouldn't be to smart
thing is, I can't quite rely on LWP::Simple currently
feather.perl6.nl/~sergot/modules/mo...lient.html has some new branch which looks promising, but I don't think it's there yet 21:38
Rotwang1 I'll use curl for now then 21:39
tadzik supernovus writes good stuff, so I hope HTTP::Client 2.0 will be there sooner than later :)
and I'll happily move my code to it
oh, Rotwang1 21:40
did you see github.com/azawawi/perl6-net-curl/?
I didn't know we have such thing :)
timotimo seen azawawi 21:42
aloha azawawi was last seen in #perl6 21 days 6 hours ago saying "jnthn previously suggested adding a web API for perl6-debug... once that's there, i will be more than happy to integrate it.".
timotimo oh, he's the one who worked on that web based perl6 editor, isn't that right?
Rotwang1 tadzik: looks like what I need, thanks 21:43
I hope it works
tadzik feather.perl6.nl/~sergot/modules/ indicates that smoketests pass for it
last update 2012-12-13 though
sergot: *poke* :) 21:44
Rotwang1 I like how examples are in c
timotimo tadzik: there is only one test file and that tests if use The::Module works 21:45
tadzik heh
bah
timotimo Rotwang1: it seems like those examples were taken from curl itself and partially translated to perl6
(https.p6, for instance)
Rotwang1 indeed
timotimo masak: hey, looking at rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=77272 right now. rakudo now shows line number and file like you wished (although it's at the very end of the output". is that good enough for you or would you prefer the position info in front or something? 21:54
(although the position indicator seems a bit off. it shows ------> and then nothing, although the line does have some content (doesn't even show BOL or EOL)
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[Coke] rakudo: class A is NoSuchType {} 22:03
p6eval rakudo c3f565: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot call 'trait_mod:<is>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U $child, Mu:U $parent)␤:(Attribute:D $attr, :rw(:$rw)!)␤:(Attribute:D $attr, :readonly(:$readonly)!)␤:(Attribute:D $attr, :box_target(:$box_target)!)␤:(Routine:D $r, …
timotimo it doesn't show up in p6eval, because it's like 100 lines before it gets to the line/file 22:04
jnthn 100? :)
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dalek p: fb2b87e | jnthn++ | src/how/NQPAttribute.pm:
Toss some dead code.
 22:54
p: caa866f | jnthn++ | src/how/ (5 files):
Various cleanups and simplifications in MOP code.
p: 8319c39 | jnthn++ | src/how/NQPModuleHOW.pm:
Eliminate a now-unrequired hack.
p: 4084b68 | jnthn++ | src/how/ (4 files):
A further round of MOP code simplifications.

We've relied in various places on methods that Parrot's PMCs provide, but that it's not reasonable to expect a ground-up 6model runtime to offer. In general, the only things that define internal methods are the KnowHOW and KnowHOWAttribute, from which everything else is built. By keeping the MOP simpler, it means we can keep the runtime leaner and write more of NQP in NQP. This isn't the entire set of changes we need, but many of them.
jnthn For the curious: every object-y thing in nqp-jvm is a 6model object of some kind.
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japhb_ jnthn++ # I've been wondering which of the ways to push/count elements/etc in NQP was the "official"/"best" way, and which ones were historical. Thanks for clearing that up! 23:17
jnthn japhb_: Please note that the answer in MOP code is not automatically the answer in normal code.
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japhb_ *sigh*, you would have to say that, wouldn't you? 23:18
japhb-- # Assuming simplicity where reality is involved 23:19
jnthn japhb_: Well, NQP doesn't try to have all the conveniences that full Perl 6 does, but the NQP MOP code is a level below that.
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jnthn That said, the ones in the MOP are probably the lowest level and probably the most efficient :) 23:20
japhb_ Sure, but I wondered whether '@foo[+@foo] := ', [email@hidden.address] or 'nqp::push(@foo,)' was most efficient ... and I would really hope the way that the MOP does it is in fact the most efficient. ;-)
... and there we go. :-) 23:21
jnthn The @foo[+@foo] thing is a huge hack from the days when NQP did some funky things with regard to auto-viv.
There's never a reason to do it these days.
japhb_ excellent
It felt very PHP-ish
jnthn I've one more round of MOP simplification to do (but not tonight) with regard to hash iteration. 23:23
Then it'll mostly be a case of chugging through my heavily commented out version of it. 23:25
It's nice how much I can uncomment already...
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japhb_ was just discussing the progress today with a few people very interested in seeing Perl 6 on JVM. They asked "Is this just being thought about, or in design, or what?" It felt really good to say "Oh no, multiple commits a day, actually." 23:28
jnthn Yeah, it's going fairly smoothly so far. Touch wood. 23:29
japhb_ knocks on his forehead 23:30
jnthn The thing that's gonna be a pain in the butt to crank out is the deserialization code.
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diakopter what, parsing in java isn't super-fun? 23:32
jnthn heh 23:33
It's a binary format. I don't have to parse :D
No, it's just keeping all the fixups straight.
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jnthn With a level of indirection less than I have to play with on the Parrot impl. 23:34
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japhb_
.oO( If any programming problem can be solved with another layer of indirection, what happens when you remove a layer? )
 23:35
jnthn That's why I'm not looking forward to it :P
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timotimo removing a layer is totally a programming problem, so ... :) 23:40
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huf maybe there's always a fixed number of layers, and when you remove one from somewhere, it gets added somewhere else 23:42
timotimo that doesn't seem right. i only seem to see examples of layers being added, almost never removed 23:44
huf somewhere, there must be a pile of very simple, very performant code
they sing a hymn to praise creation
but nobody is there to hack on them, because we're all busy adding layers
timotimo heh. 23:45
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colomon 's Chrome keeps on ramping up to 100% CPU usage and staying there. :( 23:48
Any programming problem can be created by removing a layer of indirection? 23:49
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jnthn :) 23:51
OK, time for some rest here
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jnthn & 23:52
japhb_ o/ 23:53
huf: That very simple, very performant code is running in a Forth somewhere. ;-) 23:54
sorear colomon: have you played with the chrome task manager/
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