»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! ! temporary logs at colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6
Set by moritz on 29 April 2013.
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adu hey 01:18
I got "ERROR: Permission to perl6/nqp.git denied to andydude"
sorear? anyone?
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_sri moritz: irc logs are down :( 01:32
adu how do I get commit rights to nqp? 01:39
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sorear _sri: server's dead, moritz is in the process of acquiring a replacement 01:47
_sri: all code is safe and at most a day of logs are lost
_sri ah, thanks
sorear am I allowed to give out nqp commit bits? 01:48
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adu sorear: someone does 01:56
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pmichaud TimToady: When you get a chance, your opinion on github.com/perl6/specs/issues/35 would be most welcome. Thanks! 03:38
sorear pmichaud: did adu ever get an nqp commit bit, and what are the rules for handing them out? 03:49
pmichaud sorear: checking 03:50
(others are of course welcome to comment on spec issue #35 as well :)
in general we have a fairly open commitbit policy for nqp and nqp-rx, so I'm fine with granting adu a commitbit 03:53
I don't know the github nick, though, so perhaps someone else can add the bit...? 03:54
I'm afk again... bbt 03:56
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sorear pmichaud: i've done it, anyway 04:10
.tell adu andydude can now commit to nqp
yoleaux sorear: I'll pass your message to adu.
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FROGGS morning 06:18
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FROGGS what I was thinking last night: what if we had our own irc-client, which downloads the irclog if you have a gap and have these nice links to the synopsis like moritz's irclog has? 06:24
might be just a plugin for an existing (most used) client though
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tadzik which reminds me 06:28
FROGGS of what? 06:29
sorear FROGGS: that's the project that I was trying to use to learn p6
FROGGS ahh, cool
sorear: did it got somewhere?
tadzik I had this Perl 6 bot that was turning S02:24 into URLs here, on channel 06:30
I put it somewhere and I don't remember where
FROGGS hmm
there was a gist
just 30 lines or so
tadzik: gist.github.com/tadzik/5325542
tadzik gist.github.com/tadzik/5325542 18 :)
yeah, tanks :)
FROGGS browser history++ 06:31
tadzik I'll put it on feather
sorear FROGGS: no, I came to the conclusion that trying to write an IRC client is completely insane and noone should ever do it 06:34
tadzik :)
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FROGGS hehe 06:36
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JamesTaylor Can anyone tell me whether there is an Ubuntu PPA for keeping up with the latest Rakudo? 06:43
(I prefer to let the package manager handle updates where possible rather than doing a manual install, let alone a compile from source.)
I found this: 06:44
launchpad.net/~dexter/+archive/rakudo-pkg
but it seems rather out of date.
This is Piotr Roszatycki's PPA. Does anyone know how to contact him to see if he plans to update it at all? 06:45
FROGGS JamesTaylor: if you click on his name, these is a link "log in for email information" 06:49
but it is two and a half years since he uploaded that package 06:50
JamesTaylor Yes :( 06:52
I was just trying to fight my way past all the javascript and captcha requirements in order to get an account and then read his email address, but I'm thinking it isn't worth pulling my pants down like that. I think I'll just wait and try to discover another way to get latest Rakudo into my package manager. 06:54
FROGGS hmmm, I am currently reading the package building howto... 06:58
JamesTaylor: launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rakudo 07:00
there is a 2013.03
moritz \o 07:01
FROGGS moin moritz
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tadzik JamesTaylor: I know him in person, will contact him :) 07:25
daxim lists.perlportal.com/sympa/arc/november/2009-09/ # I loled
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tadzik JamesTaylor: or I can just give you his email 07:25
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JamesTaylor That would be great, thanks. 07:43
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moritz masak: #masakism is logged again, the logs just aren't availble in real time :/ 08:29
jnthn morning o/ 08:35
dalek ecs: 2a92e08 | (Brent Laabs)++ | S32-setting-library/IO.pod:
add IO::Spec, add IO::Path methods cleanup and resolve
 08:36
moritz \o jnthn
labster good morning
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FROGGS morning labster, jnthn 09:09
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labster r: &say.WHAT; our $*PERL is Cool?? True!! our $PERL is Cool 09:22
camelia rakudo 3252c3: ( no output )
tadzik :D
labster++
jnthn hehe :) 09:24
.oO( that's the REAL reason we changed ? : to ?? !! )
labster r: #`{ jnthn: } "sad" but True; 09:31
camelia rakudo 3252c3: ( no output )
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mathw hehe 09:32
morning all \o/ o/ \o 09:33
jnthn o/ mathw
labster /\o/\ mathw 09:36
FROGGS hey hey mathw 09:41
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kresike hello all you happy perl6 people 09:43
FROGGS hi kresike
mathw hello! 09:47
tadzik hello!
mathw: how is your t430 that arrived on time because the sender is not a total dick? :| 09:48
mathw tadzik: It's very nice. Unfortunately Fedora 18 is a bit... umm... broken 09:53
broken in ways I didn't notice on my previous laptop!
I actually had to switch to ubuntu, and we'll see how long that lasts before I throw the laptop out of the window 09:54
kresike FROGGS, o/
tadzik mathw: I'm running ubuntu everywhere these days, it's not that bad 09:55
but I don't even try unity and all those things
mathw I've decided to give it a chance
FROGGS eval: my $x = "abc"; say chop $x; say $x
O.o
mathw although I wasn't very happy when I found out that they don't have a haskell-platform package in 13.04
tadzik I'm just installing xubuntu and then ignoring xfce anyway :)
FROGGS p5eval: help 09:56
p5eval FROGGS: help
tadzik hehehe
mathw the reason why? Because there's no platform release yet which uses GHC 7.6. Which makes me wonder why did they upgrade the compiler and thus break the haskell dev experience?
FROGGS -.-
p5eval: my $x = "abc"; say chop $x; say $x
p5eval FROGGS: cab1
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FROGGS p5eval: my $x = "abc"; chop $x; say $x 09:57
p5eval FROGGS: ab1
FROGGS ahh, I see
mathw chop returns the chopped character?
err
FROGGS p5eval: my $x = "abc"; printf("%s %s\n", chop $x; $x) 09:58
p5eval FROGGS: ERROR: syntax error at (eval 7) line 1, at EOFsyntax error at (eval 7) line 3, near "$x)"
mathw no, I'm still not getting that
FROGGS p5eval: my $x = "abc"; printf("%s %s\n", chop $x, $x)
p5eval FROGGS: c ab1
mathw where's the 1 coming from?
kresike FROGGS, where's that 1 coming from ?
FROGGS chop returns the chopped one, ya
1 is because the statement is true
r: my $x = "abc"; printf("%s %s\n", chop $x, $x)
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤ in sub chop at src/gen/CORE.setting:2522␤ in block at /tmp/0iNKPwtRhG:1␤␤»
FROGGS r: my $x = "abc"; printf("%s %s\n", chop($x), $x)
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«ab abc␤» 09:59
FROGGS and rakudos chop returnes the opposite :/
FROGGS will read spec now
jnthn In Perl 6 we tend to lean towards immutability. 10:01
$a.=chop; # to mutate 10:02
mathw and a nice thing it is too 10:07
(says the Haskell programmer)
jnthn finds code that mutates less tends to be easier to refactor 10:10
And/or reuse, evolve, extend, etc.
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mathw finds that too 10:14
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mathw is writing real proper unit tests using a real proper mocking framework and loving it 10:19
jnthn is generally happier when he can find a factoring that spares him the need for a mocking framework, but that isn't always an option 10:22
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mathw Especially since I'm retrofitting a system I didn't write 10:34
Fortunately it was fairly easy to persuade it to take all its external dependencies in an easily-mockable way 10:35
jnthn Yeah, that's one of the cases where it tends to be needed.
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mathw What this is really letting me do is verifying that the components which glue various other components together coordinate things properly 10:51
So when it gets an input of this sort of value, does it attempt to invoke this operation over here, and then this one over here, and then this one with the response from the first one, and so forth 10:52
Or, does it explode and leave a mess on the floor?
masak either solution has its appeal :P 10:53
mathw Not when you're trying to crunch a giant data set into a suitable format to send off to a government department. They tend to prefer the non-messy outcome :) 11:00
Boring I know, but it's the government
jnthn forms The Floor Is To Damn Clean party 11:01
mathw I think I'll have some lunch now 11:03
While jnthn writes his manifesto
&
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pmichaud good morning, #perl6 11:30
jnthn o/, pmichaud
FROGGS hi pmichaud
pmichaud jnthn: TimToady's answer to spec #35 makes me think that we don't get the "easy" solution for Nil in Match objects. :-) 11:34
i.e., we should explicitly bind slots to Nil so that :exists responds properly. 11:36
(with ?-quantifiers)
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, I saw that and realized...eek. 11:37
pmichaud oh, I don't think it'll be too hard.
jnthn pmichaud: So, 'tis a bit more work. But I hope not so bad.
pmichaud it just means that we keep the failed match objects in the cstack
jnthn pmichaud: I just hope it doesn't slow down CAPHASH and MATCH.
pmichaud and that failed match objects always return Nil
cognominal nqp: gist.github.com/cognominal/5488167
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Method 'ast' not found for invocant of class 'String'␤current instr.: 'TOP' pc 608 ((file unknown):173676329) (/tmp/Oq8Q7j94td:7)␤»
pmichaud I think it'll be just as fast; perhaps even a little faster
jnthn pmichaud: OK. They typically show up as hot paths in profiles of parsing. 11:38
cognominal hi everyone.
jnthn pmichaud: I've done what I can to improve things.
pmichaud: Well, I've done the immediate things I could think of ;)
pmichaud yeah, I still have some ideas for improvement. I think we still need to look at string encodings and make sure we're not overly copying stuff.
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cognominal in the giest I just pasted, I forgot some wiring in my actions but which? 11:39
pmichaud and having a fast substr-compare still might be a useful option
jnthn cognominal: missing @make@ in TOP
cognominal oops
thx
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, I need to fiddle the JVM version to use regionMatches or whatever it's called.
pmichaud: I did a pretty direct port out of "I want this to work so faithful translation first is preferable" :) 11:40
pmichaud jnthn: yeah.
unless speed is a huge issue, I'm thinking we want QAST::Compiler to have a lot more in common among the vms 11:41
especially the regex compiler
(and yes, speed is a huge issue)
i.e., refactor it to use generic nqp ops instead of vm-specific ones
(and define nqp ops as needed to enable that to happen)
I'm afk for a bit... have to fetch the tea-stained paper from the oven. :-P 11:42
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pmichaud (from backscroll) we really might want to start publishing our own .deb packages :-/ 11:46
FROGGS I'd do it if I had help on creating deb packages properly 11:49
cognominal jnthn, indeed the make is missing, but the problem I hit so far is that <EXPR>.ast is a string :(
FROGGS cognominal: what about givin it a sigil? 11:50
cognominal arf
FROGGS :P
cognominal I need a walk
thx
FROGGS you'Re welcome
arnsholt pmichaud: Any idea how complicated that'd be to set up? 11:51
nwc10 perl 6 - diving people to walks and naps since, well, quite a while.
er, driving
that would be funnier.
cognominal I don't ever write a string as <EXPR>. I wish the compiler could know that
nwc10 pmichaud: I wrote a latin 1 vs UTF-8 string compare routine for Perl 5 for some reason 11:52
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nwc10 not sure if that's the sort of thing you're thinking of. The use case was eq/ne/cmp etc between two strings of different encodings, to avoid the need to transcode 11:52
also, return value was not just -1/0/-1 but -2/-1/0/1/2 so that it could also report things like "LHS is the initial substring of RHS" 11:54
pmichaud nwc10: that's sort of it, yes. we already transcode our strings to a fixed-width encoding
nwc10 not sure we've needed that, but it was free to return that info
yes, fixed width for the win
pmichaud right now we incur a cost for comparing substrings
nwc10 but I suspect that it's potentially the same thing - avoid transcoding at O(length) when you can find something at O(much earlier)
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pmichaud e.g., if we have a really long string (e.g. program source) and we need to find out if the string at position N is "if", we currently do 11:55
$S0 = substr source, N, 2
if $S0 == "if" ...
which means that we do a _lot_ of substr operations in Parrot 11:56
better would be
$I0 = strposcmp source, "if", N
which does the comparison without having to first create the substring to compare to
nwc10 did you miss a 2 from that?
pmichaud perhaps 11:57
or the 2 could be deduced from the "if"
nwc10 oh, sorry, I misread the 2 as pos, not len
PEB(my)KAC
pmichaud and since string objects in Parrot act somewhat like gc-ables.... there's a lot of churn we should probably avoid 11:58
jnthn nwc10: If you code standing up, that can't happen so easily, btw. ;)
(provided you move the chair to not be behind you, of course...) 11:59
pmichaud if you keep the chair in front of you, then it becomes CEBPAK
nwc10 and lots of substrings means lots of garbage? 12:00
pmichaud well, lots of string headers
I guess that would qualify as garbage. I'm not exactly sure how Parrot handles those these days
at any rate, we should be able to improve the substr compare a fair bit. 12:01
mathw \o/ 12:02
nwc10 that would be \o/ 12:03
mathw I noticed a huge speedup last time I compiled Rakudo, but that was because I'd just got a new laptop with a Core i7 in it
pmichaud whether that translates to a speed improvement... I dunno. I did some preliminary work here on a substr compare and was a little disappointed in it
jnthn may try it on the JVM port to see what happen
I know each new string is a GCable object. OTOH, JVMs do clever things like inlining and EA 12:04
pmichaud oooh, oooh 12:05
I might be able to get the string comparison to handle case-insensitivity, too.
jnthn :)
pmichaud looks up details on regionMatches in java for comparison. 12:06
jnthn iirc there's a case insensitive form also 12:07
pmichaud there is
I think I'll put that in as well
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pmichaud afk, kids to school 12:19
nwc10 jnthn: presumably inlining and Escape Analysis is still work that the compiler (or JIT) needs to do 12:25
so if it's easy enough for NQP or Rakudo to generate better code directly, that is a runtime win
(Albeit trading runtime for jnthn/Pm-time)
jnthn nwc10: For sure, and also optimizations take time to kick in 12:28
It optimizes over time as it better understands the hot spots
masak pmichaud++ # CEBPAK 12:30
tangentstorm computer exists between problem and keyboard? 12:35
nwc10 *chair* 12:37
see about 40 minutes ago
tangentstorm oh right. duh :) 12:38
FROGGS .oO( computer exists between chair and keyboard? ) 12:46
pmichaud if you sit on the keyboard, it's KEBPAC :-)
FROGGS xccccccccccccccccccccccccccc>a'q9 # 12:47
tangentstorm this is why they invented en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHRDLU 12:48
pmichaud notes that kebpac.org and kebpac.com are both available. 12:49
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Util HEAD (54a9a07) of NQP is broken for me, even with a fresh build: 13:36
`git clone git://github.com/perl6/nqp.git && cd nqp && perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot && make`
Sometimes this fails here:
/Users/bruce/NQP_temp_crashing_head/nqp/install/bin/parrot -L. -X. --library=src/vm/parrot/stage0 src/vm/parrot/stage0/nqp.pbc --target=pir --output=src/stage1/gen/NQPHLL.pir --module-path=src/stage1 --setting-path=src/stage1 --no-regex-lib src/stage1/gen/NQPHLL.nqp
timotimo r: my @a = 1, 2, 3; my @b = 1, 0, 1; (@a Z/ @b).perl.say;
Util parrot(39640,0x7fff7e8f7180) malloc: *** error for object 0x7fd1d91aaf60: incorrect checksum for freed object - object was probably modified after being freed.
Other times, it fails here: (it also fails here if you run `make` after that first failure)
/Users/bruce/NQP_temp_commit/nqp/install/bin/parrot -L. -X. --library=src/vm/parrot/stage0 src/vm/parrot/stage0/nqp.pbc --target=pir --output=src/stage1/QAST.pir --module-path=src/stage1 --setting-path=src/stage1 --no-regex-lib src/stage1/QAST.nqp
Invalid dependencies table index encountered (index 8718)
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 13:37
Util jnthn: ^^^ Your commits
Looks like 176fa67 was last successful, 1d92734 was first failure.
timotimo why is my thing timing out? it gives "divide by zero" without the .perl.say
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timotimo i suppose there's no good way to do this in a short form 13:39
Util r: my @a = 1, 2, 3; my @b = 1, 0, 1; my @c = (@a Z/ @b); @c.say; 13:40
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«Divide by zero␤ in sub infix:<div> at src/gen/CORE.setting:3324␤ in sub infix:<div> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2975␤ in method floor at src/gen/CORE.setting:8652␤ in method Str at src/gen/CORE.setting:8670␤ in method Str at src/gen/CORE.setting:876␤ in method St…
Util timotimo: Using an intermediate var (@c) allows the failure to happen before .perl tries to get involved. 13:41
timotimo i've settled on this form now for my "production code": for ($self.ships, $other.ships) Z (@dpot-other, @dpot-self) -> $count, $dpot { $quick-rounds min= $count / $dpot if $dpot > 0; } 13:42
i think it still looks plenty readable.
jnthn Util: I'm assuming you're building a branch?
oh, hang on 13:43
that one went into master
Util jnthn: No, master
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Util That `git clone...` is the exact command that I used. 13:43
timotimo jnthn: pretty usable rakudo on JVM by end of next month; what do you reckon? 13:44
jnthn Util: Yeah, I see now...sorry, multiple distractions here :) 13:45
Util: I'll have a closer look a bit later
arnsholt jnthn: Speaking of Rakudo on JVM, I think NativeCall for JVM should be doable within a reasonable timeframe. It turns out I'm going to YAPC::NA, so I plan on spending my time on NativeCall stuff 13:46
Er, hackathon time, that is
Util jnthn: Thanks! I will commit my RT#117731 is-prime fix after NQP HEAD builds correctly again.
pmichaud timotimo: I think our official position is that we're not making any predictions about when rakudo on JVM might be available/usable. 13:48
timotimo hehe. i was looking for an unofficial prediction :)
nwc10 "not this week" 13:49
pmichaud s/I think our/Our/
"we're not making any preductions" includes "unofficial predictions" :-)
*predictions
mathw ready by Christmas?
pmichaud likes "preductions", though -- sounds like the reverse of "induction" :) 13:50
mathw: we're not making any predictions. :)
nwc10 I'm sticking to "not this week"
mathw heh
nwc10 I think that that has a good chance of being correct 13:51
mathw I thought the standard prediction for all Perl 6 projects was Christmas
nwc10 "not next week either" seems pretty safe
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jnthn will go with "not this week" :P 13:51
mathw "not this week" does seem pretty safe
jnthn It's actually quite easy for me to achieve that too ;)
mathw wish my boss would accept that kind of timescale
pmichaud given that jnthn++ is working on it, though, "not this week" isn't even a safe prediction. :)
arnsholt pmichaud: Apparently there's something called co-induction. Probably not the same as preduction though 13:52
jnthn pmichaud: Well, I've got distractions coming up, though.
Gotta make a (literally) flying visit to Finland soon.
pmichaud nqp HEAD is broken? 13:53
(reading backscroll)
jnthn "works for me"
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pmichaud I'll try it here. 13:53
jnthn thanks
jnthn digs back into $dayjob thing
Will have some tuits later
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mathw flying? Are you travelling by catapult? 13:57
dalek p: afbc772 | pmichaud++ | t/qregex/ (2 files):
Fix up incomplete quantified captures commit 54a9a07.
 14:00
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pmichaud Util: nqp builds okay for me on my box. I'm guessing there's a GC or pointer problem somewhere that your system is exposing. 14:02
timotimo what are the current LHF in rakudo and nqp on parrot or jvm? anything in particular i could pay some attention to today? 14:03
Util pmichaud: I will try on my Linux box. Failure was on OS X Mountain Lion. 14:04
nwc10 Util: 4 is sometimes prime on OS X (and FreeBSD), which seems to be down to the GC 14:06
so that's a known seen on OS X, not on Linux, problem
pmichaud I think Util is seeing a build failure on his box.
nwc10 aha.
that's a lot more "fun" :-(
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Util Yes, I have fixed the prime problem, but was doing a test against HEAD before pushing the fix. 14:10
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FROGGS jnthn: if I have an <EXPR> which matched $x, how do I bind to it in the actions? 14:13
sub bind_op tells me, that it can't bind to this lhs
jnthn FROGGS: Well, that means the case analysis failed I guess... 14:16
FROGGS: Can you give me a little more context? 14:17
FROGGS hmmm, or I passed the wrong args
oaky
jnthn The set of things we can bind to is constrained 'cus binding is a fairly low level operation.
It's not like assignment where you can throw pretty much what you like on the LHS and provided it somehow produces a container-y thingy you're good. 14:18
FROGGS I have token term:sym<chop> { <sym> » <?before \s*> <.ws> <EXPR('q=')>? }
so I thought I could do: bind_op($/, $<EXPR>[0].ast, $chopped_var, '$') # $chopped_var is QAST::Var.new(...
btw, P5's chop modifies the arg in place 14:19
jnthn That sounds like an odd way to implement it to me... I'd have expected chop to be a built-in that takes a container, does the choperation, then assigns the result into the container.
FROGGS how do I "take container" ? 14:20
jnthn like sub prefix:<chop>($x is rw) { $x = low-level-chop-thingy($x) } # or so
FROGGS a*
jnthn But however you write such things...I dunno what you're writing your Perl 5 setting/built-ins in... :) 14:21
FROGGS well, basically at the same level where Perl6::Actions is
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FROGGS the problem with things like chop is, that I think it really needs to be a term 14:22
because you can do: my @array = "a", "b", chop "abc", "def" 14:23
chop will only take "abc" as an arg
or I have to turn it all around and make the perl 5 subroutine prototypes work first >.< 14:24
jnthn A prefix at the right precedene will get it right, no? 14:25
FROGGS hmmm, this could work for the zero/one-scalar-argument case, yeah 14:27
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FROGGS jnthn: so, lets say I make my own core/terms.pm, so like rakudo I'd create a setting.pir and bootstrap is somehow? 14:41
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FROGGS has no idea about bootstrapping yet 14:41
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FROGGS gtg home, will read backlog... 14:42
but thanks already! :o)
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jnthn FROGGS: having pondered it a bit, it occurs to me that the best way may be to have a CORE5.setting that has the Perl 6 setting as its outer setting and maybe try using that. Then you can override/replace all the things you need to, and gradually work towards independence. 15:00
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masak evening, #perl6! \o 15:56
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masak it is now exactly 24 hours before #masakism begins. things are heating up on the channel. excited. 16:00
I'll post a few reminders tomorrow, for people who aren't on the channel yet.
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isBEKaml OHHAI, I just looked at rakudo.org - was there no 2013.03 star release? 16:01
how about this month? 16:02
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timotimo there was no such release. 16:04
isBEKaml :( 16:05
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isBEKaml BTW - we have package build scripts available for slackware. It's a little slow getting things up live here, I'll try to keep things as close to release versions as possible. slackbuilds.org/result/?search=nqp&sv=14.0 16:09
I've deferred R* for now.
kresike bye folks 16:10
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isBEKaml o/ kresike 16:10
I mean, the package script for R* in slackbuilds. 16:11
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[Coke] there is no guarantee of monthly star releases. 16:22
(as opposed to the compiler, which we're pretty solid on.)
isBEKaml Is there anything that makes it so? I mean, if it can be released by non-committers, maybe I can take it up until someone comes along? 16:25
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gtodd isBEKaml: I am still learning how to make a release :-| 16:47
isBEKaml gtodd: hmm, would you be willing to take this up if it falls down to you? (even on a semi-permanent basis) :) 16:48
gtodd isbechamel: in the future I will help ... I almost was ready to step up but my git learning curve ... the 9 pull requests and my parrot problems were "blockers" :-) 16:49
isBEKaml: well I am more of project manager/bureaucrat and I'm more at ease in perl5 (and even there barely) from a oldster scripting sysadmin perspective 16:51
isBEKaml gtodd: heh. :) I was just throwing that out there.
gtodd but sure ... just don't ask me to talk about compiler theory or resolve disputes with any kind of technical merit :-P
isBEKaml keeps isbechamel in mind. :) 16:52
gtodd hmm
strange that I typed that?!? Must be lunchtime in my TZ
or past
isBEKaml cutting releases don't require deep technical chops. Just some commands to type in and out pops release packages. :) 16:53
gtodd yeah that's why I would volunteer
isBEKaml gtodd: no worries.
gtodd put me down for june :)
isBEKaml gtodd: erm, I'm not actually sure that's all set in stone. I'm waiting for core committers to speak up. :)
gtodd hah np :-) 16:54
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gtodd toys with the idea of a perl conference 16:54
as in trying to set one up ... 16:55
hmm maybe I'll start simple with a perl BarCamp
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pmichaud I may be able to cut a star release today. 16:57
gtodd pmichaud: where does one twiddle things so at the top level the star release defaults to grabbing parrot-5.3.0 ? 16:59
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gtodd when using --gen-parrot or --gen-nqp 17:01
isBEKaml gtodd: I believe that would be: perl Configure --gen-parrot=RELEASE_5_3_0 # usually --gen-parrot=BRANCH_NAME 17:03
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gtodd yeah I'm doing that and it works 17:04
just wondering how to make 5_3_0 the default
FROGGS there is a tools/build/PARROT_REVISION or so 17:06
isBEKaml pmichaud: awesome :-)
gtodd so it's a rakudo not a rakudo star issue 17:07
FROGGS: great
FROGGS and a tools/build/NQP_REVISION in the rakudo repo
isBEKaml gtodd: that would be in the star repo to generate a makefile.
pmichaud NONONONO 17:08
don't change the rakudo or NQP revision for star, that's the wrong approach.
isBEKaml pmichaud: I believe gtodd was asking about how to make a default versions in order to build a star package. 17:09
pmichaud isBEKaml: yes, and FROGGS was suggesting changing PARROT_REVISION and NQP_REVISION, which would be the wrong way to do it. 17:10
the way to adjust star and rakudo versions is described in step 2 of the star release guide :-/
isBEKaml pmichaud: ah, yeah - I pointed them towards the star repo. 17:11
FROGGS I just said where there version are in, I actually dont know what he's up to, just grabbed a single line and answered
isBEKaml gtodd: it's in tools/star/Makefile in star repo.
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isBEKaml gtodd: also, read the release guide in the same folder. 17:12
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isBEKaml pmichaud: what do you think about an informal group of volunteers stepping up to cut star releases every month? 17:13
gtodd pmichaud: :-) I'm just reading the docs/release_guide.pod for rakudo 17:14
pmichaud isBEKaml: that's the way it's supposed to work, yes. Same as Rakudo releases :)
gtodd when I volunteered it was for rakudo !! :-|
j/k 17:15
isBEKaml gtodd: that's for rakudo compiler release. Star has its own release guide outlined in star repo: github.com/rakudo/star
pmichaud: heh - by informal, I meant non-committers. :) (though it was just one compiler release done by a non-committer) 17:16
pmichaud isBEKaml: the commiters for star are already separate from the commiters for the compiler, and star doesn't require a CLA. 17:17
gtodd FROGGS: was trying to simulate a release following the docs/release_guide.pod ... got everything to work but the pull requests and updating the parrot version
isBEKaml: thanks
isBEKaml: so the star repo is separate from rakudo repo or .... 17:18
pmichaud isBEKaml: so short answer to your question is -- anyone that wants a star commitbit can get one.
isBEKaml pmichaud: great, sign me up! :) 17:19
pmichaud: I can step in when no one comes forward.
gtodd isBEKaml: I'm hoping the rakudo and parrot parts of the star release are just clones of the rakudo repot :-)
pmichaud gtodd: they are not. 17:20
gtodd: star releases are built from parrot and rakudo *tarballs*
not from the repos.
i.e., star releases are created directly from rakudo and parrot *releases*
isBEKaml gtodd: star releases are always after compiler releases. so releasing star is just about pulling in recently released tarballs of rakudo, parrot + some more p6 modules.
gtodd good :-) 17:21
gtodd: I don't want my rakudo/parrot pains to go to waste
pmichaud so far p6 modules tend to come from git repos, yes, because many of the modules don't have a published release cycle
gtodd right
but star != "core modules" for some eventual completed perl6 release 17:23
pmichaud ..."completed perl6 release" ? 17:34
tadzik we have like 60 of those ;)
also, there are like 3 "core"
<insert moritz's post> 17:35
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masak moritz' blog is down, too? :( 17:36
isBEKaml pmichaud: I see three new issues filed last month for star. Were they fixed since?
pmichaud masak: all of perlgeek.de, iiuc 17:37
isBEKaml: I don't know if they were fixed or not. I suspect "not".
isBEKaml tadzik: R* issue #19's in your ground. :-)
tadzik uh-oh :) 17:38
aw 17:39
hm
tests pass according to feather.perl6.nl/~sergot/modules/
I'll verify locally and resolve this 17:40
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isBEKaml okay, great 17:51
tadzik thanks for reminding me 17:52
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isBEKaml np :) Now that leaves #18 and #20. 17:53
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gtodd pmichaud: I don't know .... perl-6.0.0 17:59
pmichaud gtodd: "Perl 6.0.0" refers to a specification, not an implementation or release. 18:01
tadzik like C99 or C++11
when you think of C99, the joke of "not yet implemented after over 10 years" gets a new meaning :)
gtodd oops meant rakudo :) 18:02
I thought I understood that rakudo star was rakudo and what perl5 would consider core modules
pmichaud "rakudo star", yes. 18:03
"rakudo compiler" is something else.
there can be more than one end-user-level distribution.
there's not one that is considered to be the official Perl 6 release.
just like there's not an "official Linux distribution"
isBEKaml tadzik: I think part of the reason perl6 got the reputation it did was due to expectations of a single official implementation like perl5. No amount of words on our part convinces the hivemind. :) 18:04
pmichaud yeah, the perl5 hivemind seems to be strongly bound to the notion of "one official compiler and distribution"
isBEKaml tadzik: in fact, when I first stepped in here, I confused parrot with perl6.
pmichaud there's also a binding to "one CPAN", too :) 18:05
isBEKaml yeah, that too. "Will it replace CPAN? NooOOOOO!" :)
gtodd so for some rakudo-star release (1.0) it will conform testably to perl 6 spec and include rakudo compiler and a set of finalized tested released modules (aka the * star part) but that for now those modules are just pulled in from github or whereever 18:06
pmichaud in the main, yes.
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pmichaud although it might be called something other than "star" at that point. "Star" was intended to be the first of a series of distributions, each with potentially different targets. 18:07
masak it's hard to top "star" ;) 18:08
TimToady
.oO(Query, Star, Plus, DotDot...)
isBEKaml So That's A Release. 18:10
gtodd :-D
masak isBEKaml++ 18:11
TimToady we could start down the Actually Apposite, Becomingly Beautiful, Charmingly Chipper route...
gtodd or pick a movie 18:12
and use characters
TimToady nobody wants the Jar Jar release...
masak .oO( this was actually the apposite of what I expected... ) :P
gtodd heh 18:13
geekosaur en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_classification
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TimToady Oh, Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me etc.? 18:13
gtodd well the movie would need lots of characters ... it could not be Hiroshima mon amour ...
Guest66708 Is there enough scope in the periodic table?
TimToady periodically
Periodic acid, my favorite chemical... 18:14
geekosaur plus extensions
gtodd what about unicode character names ... 18:15
masak .oO( Rakudo co-Star )
it's a dual release!
TimToady Acetylene, Butane, Caffeine, Dextromethorphan ... *
gtodd hah 18:16
Guest66708 Methane, Ethane, Propane....? 18:17
gtodd apparently this is how some towns were named in western Canada ... so rail conductors could have something alphabetical
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TimToady Guest66708: too ane-al 18:18
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gtodd assuming those molecules were chosen to sort alphabetically 18:18
TimToady organic chemistry has to be good for something... 18:19
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isBEKaml Guest66708: all of them would burst in flames at the slightest provocation. 18:19
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TimToady Caffeine? 18:19
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TimToady
.oO(maybe this explains spontaneous combustion...)
 18:20
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isBEKaml and refuelling in rapid succession. 18:20
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TimToady Aspirin, Botox, Cloriform, Digitalis... 18:24
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TimToady Addled, Befuddled, Confused, Drunk... 18:26
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colomon isBEKaml++ 18:29
isBEKaml colomon: what did I do? :)
geekosaur aspergillus, botrytis, cladosporium, dendryphiella, ... 18:33
colomon isBEKaml: on rereading, apparently you just managed to confuse me in the backlog. ;)
colomon 's latest build for $work has 4485 test failures. That's a new record level of bad for colomon's code. 18:34
isBEKaml colomon: okay, that's a new one for me. :)
diakopter well, it's better than zero failures and zero successes, sort of 18:35
colomon diakopter: I had 2020 successes, should I ship it?
diakopter does it work? ;)
colomon diakopter: 4485 failures suggests NO.
diakopter I dunno. sometimes tests cover completely useless things or are wrong 18:36
colomon as does actually trying it.
isBEKaml if those tests are autogenerated, I'd say some not-so-insignificant portion of those tests are useless. :) 18:37
colomon isBEKaml: alas, those tests are laboriously generated by hand. In C++. :(
isBEKaml colomon: ah, sucks. :( But hey, it's so great that you were able to generate 6k+ tests by hand! 18:38
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colomon isBEKaml: it's taken me ten years... 18:39
oh, found my bug! \o/
passed i, j as the degrees of my B-Spline curve, when actually those were loop indices (as one would expect). 18:40
isBEKaml colomon: 10 years to build a trade, 10 years to gain expertise and so it goes... ossum! 18:41
colomon I thought it was 7 years? 18:42
isBEKaml mumbles something about norvig...
colomon I've been doing "this" for 19 years now. First started working on these libraries 14 years ago. Just took me a few years to start adding tests... :) 18:43
ah, crap. with the stupid bug fixed, my test suite now gets a segmentation fault. :\ 18:45
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isBEKaml colomon: wow, that's a long time. C++ is scary land for me. :) 18:50
colomon isBEKaml: let's say it should be obvious why I don't hang out in C++ land in my spare time.... 18:51
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isBEKaml colomon: yeah, right. 18:53
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TimToady Arsenic, Botulin, Curare, Digitalis... 18:57
colomon hurmph. two ecosystem modules failing now that were not failing a week ago. 19:00
isBEKaml 3 cycles of poison/darkness followed by flowery dawn? :)
FROGGS .oO( Adenine, Aadodine, Lidestolinine, Asporanine )
TimToady if Digitalis is not your poison of choice, pick your own poison... 19:02
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isBEKaml Arquebus, Blunderbuss, Carronade, Drill Purpose, Elephant, Falconet... choose your gun carefully. 19:14
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[Coke] gtodd: I'm stuck in backscroll, but the 9 pull requests were not true blockers. It's ok to cut a release with pending pull requests. 19:21
... and I'm back. 19:23
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TimToady LA Times: "Would an antimatter apple fall upward from the earth?" 19:36
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TimToady No, actually, it would be blown off, along with about a third of the earth... 19:36
masak .oO( I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. ) 19:37
[Coke] masak: I can. they they that anti-gravity is also involved. 19:38
*think
masak because anti-gravity is totally a thing.
TimToady you find antigravity repellant? 19:39
[Coke] it's the sort of thing the media lepton. 19:40
masak *groan* 19:42
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TimToady flips the boson bit 19:42
lizmat and all was silent 19:48
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geekosaur higgses nervously 19:51
PerlJam #perl6 never fails to make me smile at least once a day :-) 19:52
TimToady well, maybe it would only blow LA away
TimToady isn't particuler...
but in this case, LA would be a good city to be from 19:53
lizmat S06:344 "(To construct pseudo-named arguments that come in via C<@_> as in Perl 5, the p5-to-p6 translator will define and use the ugly C<< p5=> >> operator instead of Perl 6's C<< => >> Pair constructor.)"
sorear to be fair there is serious research being done on this...
TimToady researches being from LA all the time 19:54
sorear general relativity predicts that matter and antimatter are affected identically by gravitational fields, but this has never been tested...
lizmat TimToady: is that still something that may happen?
fwiw, p5=> seems to be NYI at the moment
masak I thought p5=> was gone long ago.
TimToady it was originally specced, but we realized the translator could just write it on the fly
jnthn lizmat: It says that the translator will define it. 19:55
geekosaur me too
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lizmat ack, so the wording in S06:344 is still correct and not outdated 19:55
pmichaud back again 19:56
TimToady except insofar as it assumes there is a translator :)
pmichaud actually, gone again.
jnthn No no, it says there *will* be one ;)
pmichaud brb
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lizmat so the wording is correct 19:57
who's to tell what will ever be?
masak until there is one, it's correct :P
TimToady you never know until someone actually tries to drop the apple
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sorear antimatter apples are very hard to come by. if you can do it with a single antihydrogen atom, that would work much better 19:59
TimToady all you have to do is figure out whether it hits the floor or the ceiling, assuming you can start it without velocity 20:01
Util I *have* a translator! It just isn't very *complete* yet :)
TimToady but it says "The translator", so there must be only one. 20:02
lizmat util: does it do p5=> or will it?
Util and my tuit crop is growing.
labster that LA Times article was too strange fermi.
Util labster: looking...
geekosaur The envisioned translator... 20:03
Util labster: I see my notes from last year (in my not-yet-committed code slush; Util--) to implement a "$need_p5_arrow" flag, which will cause the "p5=>" sub to be included in the output. 20:05
So, I know that I do plan to do that, and that I had an idea of how when I wrote the note :) 20:06
It does not do it yet.
github.com/Util/Blue_Tiger 20:07
labster Util: la\t hits me, not lizmat now, sorry. 20:08
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Util Doh! I misread the feed. Sorry! 20:09
lizmat: ^^^ All the above was for you. 20:10
lizmat Util: thank you
dalek p/rak-jvm-support: 6d8b63d | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
Use constants for argless instructions.

Should cut down a bit on memory usage and be a little faster.		 20:11
lizmat fwiw, I'm just trying to grok all Synopses before embarking on actually writing stuff
Util lizmat: Admirable! Also helpful: rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Perl_6 20:12
lizmat Util: am aware of that :-) 20:13
grondilu Do boolean operator keep their laziness when used with the reduce metaoperator? Like when I write: [&&] @aVeryLongArrayOfBooleans ? 20:14
TimToady only in the sense that the list is lazy 20:15
flussence r: say [&&] False, False, False ... *
TimToady however, the bits of the list have to be evaluated to see what produces the list
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
flussence n: say [&&] False, False, False ... *
TimToady e.g. there's no thunking there
camelia niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤This macro cannot be used as a function at /tmp/4qCL411wH_ line 1 (EOF):␤------> say [&&] False, False, False ... *⏏<EOL>␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting …
grondilu But if it has like 1000 terms? Will it evaluate all of them even if only one would suffice?
TimToady again, it depends on what you mean by "evaluate" 20:16
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TimToady [&&] foo() # has to call foo, but foo might return a lazy list 20:16
and it should short circuit your False list above 20:17
grondilu I'm planning on running something like [&&] map &expensiveFunction, @longarray
I guss that's a bad idea. 20:18
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TimToady n: say [?&] False xx *; 20:18
camelia niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 20:19
TimToady r: say [?&] False xx *;
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
TimToady r: say [&&] False xx *;
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
TimToady that last one ought work 20:20
r: say [||] True xx *;
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
TimToady so should that
grondilu ok, so it's NYI? 20:21
TimToady NYIC anyway
20:22 Targen left
pmichaud not sure how to get [||] to know that it's to short circuit... unless we define &infix:<[||]> directly. 20:22
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grondilu would that be acceptable? 20:22
lizmat rn: module C { sub a is export { say "a" } }; import C "a"; a
camelia niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Action method statement_control:import not yet implemented at /tmp/OaLaKqNWl9 line 1:␤------> a is export { say "a" } }; import C "a"⏏; a␤␤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method statement_level in …
..rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Error while importing from 'C': no EXPORT sub, but you provided positional argument in the 'use' statement␤»
pmichaud er, prefix:<[||]> 20:23
lizmat assumes import NYI
pmichaud rn: module C { sub a is export { say "a" } }; import C; a 20:24
camelia niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Action method statement_control:import not yet implemented at /tmp/Eb3bzRnjD1 line 1:␤------> sub a is export { say "a" } }; import C⏏; a␤␤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method statement_level in …
..rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«a␤»
FROGGS lizmat: positionals there NYI
pmichaud look like just that part of 'import' is NYI
lizmat ack, thanks
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jnthn Util: Think I may have found the NQP build issue. 20:25
Util jnthn: Great! I failed to reproduce it on Linux. 20:27
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jnthn Util: I'm a little surprised it worked anywhere... 20:28
Util: If it's what I think it is, anyway...
TimToady rosettacode.org/wiki/9_billion_name...ger#Perl_6 is definitely a stress test of large integers
jnthn TimToady: How does Rakudo do on it? 20:29
TimToady not as well
mostly chews up memory faster
jnthn Hm...
Wonder if that's due to big integer library stuff, or other stuff 20:30
TimToady dunno, mono's problems seemed to have nothing to do with slinging arrays of Int around, more like just the storage for the Ints themselves, which are many, and large. 20:31
dalek p: cde4d6d | jnthn++ | src/vm/parrot/6model/serialization.c:
Fix a version check thinko.
 20:32
jnthn Util: Hopefully ^ helps
TimToady is trying to see if checkpointing and restoring the Int data makes it get any further, but saving/restoring a gigabyte of Int data takes a while...
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TimToady nothing else I tried helped the GC problem; replacing shift with pop or with explicitly copy-down, using => lists instead of arrays, etc. Always blows up at about N=10200 or so 20:36
nap &
Util jnthn: Trying it... 20:42
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pmichaud nqp build failed for me.. realcleaning and trying again 20:43
can someone remind me what 'iffy', 'diffy', 'pure', etc. mean in STD.pm6 ?
jnthn pmichaud: If you continue to have problems, try removing ModuleLoader.pbc the parrot/runtime/ install directory 20:44
pmichaud (and then I will add the meanings to STD.pm6 so I don't have to ask again :)
jnthn pmichaud: iffy means it produces a boolean result or something that makes sense in a boolean context
pmichaud: diffy means it returns a different kind of thing that it takes
grondilu rn: my $n = 3; say "foo" ~~ / . ** $n /; # trying to use a variable as a quantifier 20:45
jnthn They idea is to catch mis-uses of meta-ops
camelia niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Unsupported use of atom ** $n as separator; nowadays please use atom+ % $n at /tmp/sc4h8mm_X4 line 1:␤------> my $n = 3; say "foo" ~~ / . ** $n⏏ /; # trying to use a variable as a qua␤␤｢f｣␤␤»
..rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Quantifier quantifies nothing␤at /tmp/MDqPEObKRl:1␤------> my $n = 3; say "foo" ~~ / . ** ⏏$n /; # trying to use a variable as a q␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-i…
grondilu rn: my $n = 3; say "foo" ~~ / . ** {$n} /; # trying to use a variable as a quantifier
camelia niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«｢foo｣␤␤»
..rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Quantifier quantifies nothing␤at /tmp/4WFKba9dpx:1␤------> my $n = 3; say "foo" ~~ / . ** ⏏{$n} /; # trying to use a variable as a␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-i…
dalek osystem: c8c85fe | (Timothy Totten)++ | META.list:
Added DateTime::Format and DateTime::Math
pmichaud grondilu: ** {$n} is correct, and NYI in rakudo iirc.
timotimo can't seem to figure out how exactly to build jvm nqp (and then try rakudo jvm) 20:47
i've checked out jvm-rak-support and jvm-support
lizmat just notices that "perl6 -e '1 while 1' claims to use 2 threads on OS X, with CPU more or less evenly divided between 2 cores 20:48
tadzik on jvm?
lizmat nope, parrot
timotimo there seems to be no makefile target for jvm
jnthn timotimo: There's nothing really interesting to try yet, but perl ConfigureJVM.pl --prefix=..\install-jvm && make install in NQP directory, then perl ConfigureJVM.pl && make in Rakudo
pmichaud I wonder if reduction can use the iffy flag to determine short-circuiting behavior. 20:49
diakopter lizmat: weird..
jnthn pmichaud: Doesn't immediately sound iffy... 20:50
;)
20:50 mavcunha left
pmichaud oh, I could create slurpy forms of &infix:<||> and &infix:<&&> 20:50
jnthn: build failed again... trying 'git clean -xdf' this time. 20:51
tadzik lizmat: bad probing by htop? 20:52
or something
lizmat not sure… the same with perl5 shows only 1 thread in use 20:53
jnthn pmichaud: Where did it fail?
pmichaud jnthn: let me report after this build
jnthn Right at the end building P5Regex?
pmichaud (the failed build has scrolled out of my buffer)
jnthn pmichaud: OK, did you try the ModuleLoader.pbc thing? 20:54
timotimo ah, like that :)
pmichaud I just went with the clean -xdf
timotimo jnthn: anything i could try to improve to help you out a bit?
jnthn timotimo: We're probably missing some of the bigint ops still (not many, mind) on JVM, and also the nqp::mkdir and friends are NYI on JVM 20:55
pmichaud jnthn: build succeeded this time. 20:56
jnthn pmichaud: ah, ok 20:57
Util jnthn: Build succeeded here, too. Thanks! 21:02
jnthn phew :)
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donaldh_ jnthn: How are the nqp ops bound in jvm? 21:09
21:09 PerlJam is now known as PerlJam-away 21:10 PerlJam-away is now known as PerlJam
timotimo running on src/gen/CORE.setting seems to foreverloop or something? 21:10
jnthn timotimo: Did you ConfigureJVM.pl ?
donaldh_: 'cus the JVM build doesn't try to do CORE.setting yet...
timotimo oh, not on rakudo
PerlJam is building the nqp-jvm for the first time. 21:11
jnthn donaldh_: The mappings are made in src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp
donaldh_: Are you working on anything particular at the moment?
donaldh_ just figuring out how to add ops.
Was going to add some missing ops.
jnthn OK, nice :) 21:12
djanatyn masak: hey! I'm interested in the perl6 workshop tomorrow but wasn't sure what time 16:00Z was. 21:13
when does it start, in EST?
masak djanatyn: everytimezone.com/#2013-5-1,240,6bj 21:14
PerlJam djanatyn: do you mean EDT?
(or the EST that is not in the continental united states?)
masak djanatyn: looks like 12:00 pm.
djanatyn hmm!
Util Hmmm. I am a member of the organization (github.com/perl6?tab=members), but I cannot commit to NQP (github.com/perl6/nqp). 21:15
djanatyn I may not be able to attend :\
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masak djanatyn: ok. too bad. :/ 21:15
jnthn Util: What's your github id? 21:16
Util jnthn: "Util"
[Coke] timezone rant. say "eastern" instead, then you don't have to worry about DST.
Util: that shows a clear lack of imagination!
jnthn Util: Try again
[Coke] at least my freenode nick has some gratuituous punctuation.
djanatyn ...actually. this seems interesting enough and relevant enough to my life that I might consider skipping school for this
I'm already using perl at my job all the time. what kind of stuff are you going to cover? 21:17
and are you going to cover perl6 specific stuff?
21:17 fhelmberger left
djanatyn I see the stuff you listed, but what specifically? 21:17
PerlJam djanatyn: it's a surprise! :)
lizmat S06:830 says: " doit :$when,1,2,3; # always a named arg of :when<now>" 21:20
shouldn't that be: " doit :$when,1,2,3; # always a named arg ( when => $when )" or something like that 21:21
dalek p: 16fa719 | util++ | src/vm/parrot/ops/nqp_bigint.ops:
Fix bigint_is_prime via intermediate int result (RT #117731)
 21:22
lizmat argh, should have read the spec better, please ignore
Util Coke: Heh
jnthn: Worked. Thanks!
FROGGS lizmat: :o) 21:23
jnthn: so I made a Perl5::Setting (.pm), and compiled like ./perl6 --setting=CORE ..., is that so far what you meant? 21:24
jnthn: it compiles, and its mainline gets executed when I load it via load_module from my EXPORT sub of Perl5.pm 21:25
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jnthn FROGGS: Well, --setting=CORE is the default ;) 21:26
FROGGS I'm not sure how to export/import the newly declared subs though
okay, I take it as a "yes" :o)
jnthn FROGGS: Oh, there's a load_setting 21:27
FROGGS ohh, yeah, must have missed that
jnthn: so I can just create a plain Perl 6 script, add a sub and a you_are_here, and use that as a setting? 21:28
jnthn FROGGS: Yeah. That's all that the restricted does for example 21:29
FROGGS: Oh but...hmmm
FROGGS O.o
jnthn Trouble is that if you make it the setting... 21:30
...then you can't see lexicals in the otuer scope of the v5 block. 21:31
Hmm, how on earth do we get this right.
FROGGS hmmm, bad
jnthn TimToady: Thoughts? ;)
FROGGS I'd be fine for the moment if I just could add subs for example 21:32
21:32 bluescreen10 left
timotimo i'm having trouble installing nqp for jvm properly :| 21:32
jnthn FROGGS: Well, if you just write a normal module and load_module that, then they'll hid any Perl 6 setting ones.
FROGGS: Just thanks to lexical scoping.
*hide
timotimo oh, it goes *there* 21:33
jnthn
.oO( trouble solved :) )
FROGGS jnthn: so I should create a Cool.pm, Str.pm, ... ? did you say that? 21:34
donaldh_ jnthn: looks like the missing bigint ops are isprime_I, rand_I, gcd_I and lcm_I 21:35
jnthn: does that sound about right?
timotimo you probably already know this problem by heart: src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/rakudo/Ops.java:3: error: package org.perl6.nqp.runtime does not exist
jnthn donaldh_: Yeah, that's about the obscurity and number of them I expected :) 21:36
donaldh_ :-)
jnthn timotimo: Well, it sounds like a classpath fail
timotimo: Where did you put your install? 21:37
timotimo do i have to do classpath trickery?
i just ran make install and hoped for the best
jnthn timotimo: No, the makefile shoudl get it right
timotimo: OK, did you configure with a prefix?
timotimo no
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Typhoon22 hi all 21:39
masak hi Typhoon22
Typhoon22 I'm hoping someone can help me. I'm looking to generate a very large random integer, but it keeps doing the old xE23 thing to me. Is there a way of stopping it doing that? 21:40
pmichaud how large? 21:41
diakopter upgrade to Perl 6 ?
pmichaud r: say (0..9).roll(100); # a 100-digit random integer 21:42
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«9 9 5 9 7 8 0 1 1 5 1 4 0 6 3 3 7 7 7 3 8 7 3 4 7 0 2 4 2 1 9 0 8 5 5 0 7 9 6 2 1 6 7 5 5 9 8 9 5 1 8 7 7 4 3 1 5 9 9 9 2 3 3 4 4 7 5 0 4 0 4 1 6 7 0 9 6 4 3 9 7 8 7 6 2 0 0 4 5 8 8 7 2 3 1 8 0 5 0 5␤»
pmichaud r: print (0..9).roll(100); # a 100-digit random integer
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«2874874875021328861505657957474821514782531811776084480000528910206017208658418297682123019994178528»
timotimo but that's a string, isn't it? :)
pmichaud r: print +~((0..9).roll(100)); # a 100-digit random integer
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: trailing characters after number in '5⏏ 1 4 9 3 8 4 5 7 5 8 3 4 9 4 4 6 2 0 6 8 3 4 2 5 2 2 2 1 8 0 7 9 9 5 6 6 2 8 1 3 6 1 4 4 1 8 7 8 2 8 7 0 0 7 6 3 4 0 4 8 9 1 1 1 8 0 5 7 5 1 7 1 5 2 9 2 5 2 4 2 5 7 9 8 1 8 9 0 2 2 8 5 9 6 8 7 …
timotimo whoops :) 21:43
there's spaces
pmichaud oh, yes, it stringified the list
timotimo r: print +(((0..9).roll(100)).join(""));
jnthn r: print +((0..9).roll(100).join)
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«1581934263200259864379092752875476669207704210833990120466170180820935906087771344886225698200819599»
rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«4592856314580255810152662371117371268000750369902254543935195663626171831007026289757157179124029519»
timotimo :)
jnthn r: print +((0..9).roll(1000).join)
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«5429381130182691876088490715404010035662469725835108744098526792206139947937095189449091677241232419378142486944906237912440110087217000741316626779763553951013603350045411279235852124843012625476810402837828370411306624344561937223717098640340821851357039878250307…
pmichaud that's not a string :-)
jnthn r: print +((0..9).roll(1000).join).is-prime
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«No such method 'is-prime' for invocant of type 'Str'␤ in block at /tmp/lH2VAUO1Tl:1␤␤»
jnthn um.
pmichaud method precedence 21:44
timotimo more braces
jnthn oh
duh :)
timotimo jnthn: so i will need to set the prefix manually for nqp in configurejvm.pl?
pmichaud r: print (+(0..9).roll(1000).join).WHAT
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Int in string context in block at /tmp/sDIi9k5SpJ:1␤␤»
PerlJam That's one of those things that tends to continually trip me up with Perl 6.
pmichaud r: print (+(0..9).roll(1000).join).is-prime
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«False»
pmichaud darn.
should I keep trying until I find one? 21:45
Typhoon22 thanks guys. Also picked up that i didn't need to make my own "dice roller" there :)
jnthn pmichaud: No, hack on lists ;)
pmichaud r: print (+(0..9).roll(1000).join).is-prime
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«False»
pmichaud r: print (+(0..9).roll(1000).join).is-prime
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«False»
pmichaud r: print (+(0..9).roll(1000).join).is-prime
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«False»
pmichaud *sigh*
funny thing is, when it says "True" I'll have no idea what the number was :-P
lizmat r: print (+(0..9).roll(1000).join).is-prime
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«False»
lizmat too bad, I was feeling lucky 21:46
PerlJam r: print (+(0..9).roll(1000).join).is-prime # this one will be prime
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«False»
FROGGS r: print (+(0..9).roll(1000).join).is-prime
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«False»
pmichaud our new game: "The Prime Lottery"
FROGGS :/
pmichaud "Lottery of Primes"
"Primal Lottery"
Typhoon22 I'm trying to prove that any sufficiently large integer has a 99+% probability (or 0.999999...) chance of have a 3 in it
pmichaud Typhoon22: you mean a digit '3' ? 21:47
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Typhoon22 yes 21:47
jnthn timotimo: The thing that I know works is if you make sure you give the ConfigureJVM.pl in NQP a --prefix=../install-jvm
FROGGS well, not in binary representation :o)
jnthn timotimo: Where that install-jvm directory is inside your Rakudo directory 21:48
pmichaud isn't that just a matter of taking 0.1 ** $n with $n being large enough to get your epsilon as small as you like?
lizmat night #perl6
FROGGS gnight lizmat
jnthn 'night, lizmat
21:48 tgt left
Typhoon22 pmichaud: I don't know...my maths isn't great 21:49
pmichaud easier is to ask "what's the probability of a large integer that doesn't have a 3 in it"
21:49 supernovus left
pmichaud for a 1 digit integer, the probability is .9 21:49
for a 2 digit integer, the probability is .81 (.9 x .9)
for a n digit integer, the probability is .9 ** $n
donaldh_ timotimo: jnthn: I just did ln -s ../nqp/install install-jvm 21:50
FROGGS and the opposite is .1 ** $n
pmichaud the opposite would be (1 - .9 ** $n)
donaldh_ timotimo: in rakudo obv.
Typhoon22 pmichaud: is that true though? if n is 100, then there are 18 numbers with a 3 in
pmichaud did you mean if $n == 2 ? 21:51
colomon r: say +(1..100).grep(/3/)
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«19␤»
pmichaud those are 2-digit integers
21:51 spider-mario left
pmichaud so $n == 2 21:52
so there are 81 integers without a 3
meaning there are 19 with a 3
Typhoon22 pmichaud: oh sorry, i see what you mean
FROGGS r: say 1 - .9 ** 100
pmichaud i.e., ( 1 - 0.9 ** 2) == .19
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«0.999973438601112␤»
Typhoon22 pmichaud: this is why I wanted to script it :)
colomon pmichaud: luckily rakudo agrees with you there. ;)
FROGGS >99% already
pmichaud so, for a 100-digit integer, the probability is (1 - .9 ** 100) that there will be at least one 3 in it 21:53
== 99.997343 %
Typhoon22 cool :) 21:54
pmichaud increase $n until you get the probability you want :-)
Typhoon22 thats pretty sweet guys, thanks very much
saved me a headache or 6 21:55
FROGGS .oO( or 3? )
pmichaud FROGGS: probably.
Typhoon22 not sure, what is the P value of me having, or not having a headache after trying to define the P of an integer with a 3 in it? 21:56
:)
pmichaud in my experience, there's no value to having a headache. :-P
Typhoon22 but there is great value in having a P? ;)
PerlJam Typhoon22: only if your bladder is full
Typhoon22 haha! 21:57
tadzik :D 21:58
Typhoon22 thanks for your time and help guys, I must be off. its appreciated 22:00
timotimo jnthn: install-jvm works very well
22:00 Typhoon22 left
masak 'night, #perl6 22:02
jnthn 'night, masak 22:03
timotimo jnthn: there's no rakudo tests to be run as of yet, right?
jnthn timotimo: No, it doesn't actually build a CORE.setting yet. 22:04
timotimo right
22:04 xinming left
jnthn timotimo: Getting it to build the whole thing will be a heck of a job, but we'll take it a bit at a time :) 22:04
timotimo i'll have to create a JAST for things like mkdir?
22:04 xilo left
timotimo oh, actually individual bytecodes? 22:05
jnthn timotimo: No 22:06
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jnthn timotimo: You write a method in the Ops.java somewhere under src/vm/jvm/runtime/ in the NQP repo 22:06
timotimo ah, there!
i looked at Ops.nqp and wondered :)
jnthn timotimo: Then you write it up in src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp
timotimo but that makes more sense.
jnthn Try and add things in the same order as Operations.nqp for Parrot has them. 22:07
(They already are roughly like that)
timotimo will try 22:08
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donaldh_ timotimo: I'm working on the missing bigint ops just now 22:13
timotimo cool. i'd like to try chmod/mkdir/... 22:15
how do i figure out what to return from the operations? 22:16
jnthn nqp: say(nqp::mkdir('foo')) 22:17
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Error while compiling block : Error while compiling op call (source text: "nqp::mkdir('foo')"): Error while compiling op mkdir (source text: "nqp::mkdir('foo')"): The 'mkdir' op expects two operands␤current instr.: '' pc 48819 (src/stage2/QAST.pir:17874) (src/stage2/QAST.nqp…
jnthn two?!
pmichaud mode
jnthn oh
nqp: say(nqp::mkdir('foo', 42))
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«get_string() not implemented in class 'OS'␤current instr.: '' pc 768 (src/stage2/gen/NQPCORE.setting.pir:355) (src/stage2/NQPCORE.setting:665)␤»
pmichaud looks like nqp::mkdir is returning the OS PMC 22:18
jnthn yeah
pmichaud probably not what is wanted.
jnthn Any opinions on what it should do?
It throws an exception on failure.
timotimo er, chmod won't even be covered by java, will it? because it's not portable
pmichaud I'm not sure every operation we can think of belongs in the nqp:: space, fwiw. 22:19
timotimo er, did i make that mkdir operation?
pmichaud at some point we have to delegate to some object that provides vm-specific wrappers.
timotimo yes. yes, i did.
m(
pmichaud well, maybe not "have to", but "may want to" 22:20
jnthn I'm not sure they have sensible return values, tbh. 22:21
Can always hand back some true value (1 or so) for now 22:22
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pmichaud the chmod(2) call returns an int 22:22
as does mkdir(2)
they're just success or failure
0==success, -1==failure 22:23
or, have the return value be undefined, such that if you nqp::say() it then you get what you deserve. 22:24
timotimo thank you :) 22:26
do i return that as an int or long?
jnthn timotimo: long 22:27
timotimo: $RT_INT actually means a long
timotimo where would i see a $RT_INT? 22:28
jnthn timotimo: Compiler.nqp, when you're setting up the nqp::mkdir mapping to the thing you're currently writing.
timotimo i'll have to implement chmod based on setReadable, setWritable, set Executable, and i don't see how to set the last tribit with these functions
jnthn tri harder! 22:29
:P
timotimo we have java7, right? 22:30
donaldh_ timotimo: yes, you can use Files.setPosixFilePemissions
timotimo awesome 22:31
donaldh_ timotimo: nqp is already using java.nio.file.Files
timotimo i just saw that 22:32
jnthn Yes, we use invokedynamic which is also a 7 thing
pmichaud I'm thinking of bumping NQP_REVISION to get the is-prime fix and also the ?-quantifier changes... any objections? 22:35
Util++
FROGGS jnthn: just load_module (with/without do_import) doesnt change anything :/ 22:37
it still has a chop(Cool $s), even if I changed that in the Cool.pm I use 22:38
timotimo am i allowed to let exceptions fall through? i don't think so.
how about SecurityException? everything seems to throw that, but i'm not sure if nqpjvm will ever use that?
FROGGS any Ideas? otherwise I'll push to a branch tomorrow, so I can actually show something
22:40 sqirrel left
timotimo why do i have to turn a number into Set<PosixFilePermission> manually? >_> 22:41
at least they have a predefined order that i am apparently allowed to (ab)used
donaldh_ any suggestions for a test for bigint op nqp::rand_I 22:44
diakopter distribution? 22:45
FROGGS gnight kids
22:45 skids joined
diakopter donaldh_: that was a joke. :D 22:46
donaldh_: besides, shouldn't it have a parameter of "don't use more than X GB of digits"?
donaldh_ :) 22:48
timotimo 001 would be an octal constant in java, right? as would be everything starting with 0? 22:49
dalek p: b48b5c3 | pmichaud++ | / (3 files):
P6regex: Switch ?-quantifier to be an item quantifier instead of a list quantifier.

In other words, using ? on a capturing expression no longer produces a list of captures; it's a single capture (or Nil/nonexistent).		 22:53
timotimo will nqp::rmdir delete non-empty directories? 22:56
pmichaud timotimo: I'd say "no" 22:57
timotimo great 22:58
flussence rn: (10**99..^10**100).pick # doing that stuff an hour back with string chopping is overcomplicating things a bit :)
camelia rakudo 3252c3, niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: ( no output )
flussence rn: (10**99..^10**100).pick.say
camelia rakudo 3252c3: OUTPUT«6752295153169153509922671300960545348742173743365110070500796432299543392463137830008313642569861450␤» 22:59
..niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«1218647838142289889416382768101925168105292040720840385452195544876573862678845162548699273043353198␤»
timotimo so, i've got mkdir, rmdir, chmod now. what's the best way to test if they work?
unfudge some tests perhaps?
22:59 berekuk left
flussence timotimo: you could take a look at what sort of edge cases coreutils tests for... 23:00
(assuming it does) 23:01
timotimo hm, i've implemented them in Ops.java, but i bet i'll have to add them somewhere else, too.
23:01 Targen left
timotimo ah, compiler.nqp of course 23:01
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timotimo huh, there is no mkdir in nio? 23:21
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donaldh_ I'm worried that testing nqp::rand_I will randomly fail :-( 23:24
23:24 berekuk left
donaldh_ timotimo, just use java.io.File 23:26
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donaldh_ sleep 23:28
23:28 donaldh_ left 23:31 pecastro joined
grondilu my @a = <foo bar>; say "foo" ~~ / @a /; 23:32
rn: my @a = <foo bar>; say "foo" ~~ / @a /;
camelia rakudo 3252c3, niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«｢foo｣␤␤»
grondilu Is this ^ optimized in any way? 23:34
.oO(I doubt it is)
 23:35
timotimo java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: org.perl6.nqp.runtime.Ops.mkdir(Ljava/lang/String;J)J - not sure what i did wrong (or where the L and J came from) 23:37
jnthn Those are rine 23:40
uh, fine
Does your Compiler.nqp entry have a :tc named arg?
That means "pass a final parameter which is the current ThreadContext object"
Oh, no, it doesn't 23:41
But maybe your method has a ThreadContext arg?
If so remove it (unless you need it)
Or if you're really confused now just paste me the line you added in Compiler.nqp and the signature of the thing you added in Ops :)
23:42 [particle] joined
timotimo i removed :tc, becaues i don't take a ThreadContext arg 23:42
QAST::OperationsJAST.map_classlib_core_op('mkdir', $TYPE_OPS, 'mkdir', [$RT_STR, $RT_INT], $RT_INT);
23:42 Targen joined
timotimo oh, i think i see what went wrong 23:42
i used int instead of long
wow, what did i do 23:43
wow, i botched the permissions something fierce 23:44
jnthn yeah, int instead of long would do it. 23:46
timotimo 0123 is syntax for an octal value in java, right? 23:47
jnthn Um, not sure :)
hm, en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Java_Programming/Literals says so
timotimo i'm confused as to why my permissions are not being set correctly. i call nqp::mkdir("foo", 0b777); and it ends up being rwxrwxr-x 23:48
geekosaur that's consiustent with a umask of 002
timotimo and that's my umask! 23:49
thanks for the hint!
lue timotimo: I didn't know 777 was a binary number
timotimo lue: right. i meant to type 0o777
which is what i have in the code :)
lue OK, just checking :)
timotimo i actually did write 0b777 first, but it bailed out with "Confused" or something. 23:50
jnthn Time for some sleep...should have a few tuits tomorrow &
geekosaur figured that had to be a typo since it would either be a compile error or something *really* messed up
timotimo okay, mkdir, rmdir and chmod seem to somewhat work. 23:52
i'll commit&push :)
i commit'd! :) 23:53
dalek p/rak-jvm-support: 13cd383 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/vm/jvm/ (2 files):
implement nqp::mkdir, rmdir and chmod.
23:59 [particle] left

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