»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
timotimo i don't see what i did differently from colomon's initial posting 00:03
colomon ?
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timotimo i have my @a; for (1 .. SCALE) { @a.push: $_ } 00:04
it doesn't show the ridiculous difference in performance between before and after jnthn's for sink fix in my graphs: t.h8.lv/p6bench/for_push_sink.html 00:05
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colomon timotimo: why doesn't it go out to the 16384 column? 00:06
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timotimo colomon: there's a number called "enough time" or something in the benchmark framework 00:09
it will double the scale until the test takes longer than enough time 00:10
augustus So I read that work on the JVM has made a lot of progress. Does it do enough to be worth playing with? Are there any instructions on how to set it up? 00:12
yoleaux 7 Jul 2013 04:01Z <raiph> augustus: example of grammar dynamically building grammar: rosettacode.org/wiki/Parse_EBNF#Perl_6
colomon timotimo: I can't tell you exactly what is going on, but something is really, really wrong with that graph.
timotimo augustus: it's fun to play with. our module installer doesn't work with it (to my knowledge), but it doesn't lack many features and it's got nice performance in many cases 00:13
startup time is horrible, though
but you can play with threads on it ;)
colomon On my Mac, pushing 8192 values one by one takes 1 second total under the latest jakudo.
that's not counting startup time
6.6s with startup time 00:14
so that's
r: 8192 / 6.6
camelia rakudo 117beb: ( no output )
colomon r: say 8192 / 6.6
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«1241.212121␤»
colomon 1241 iterations per second
augustus timotimo: So is it part of Rakudo, or is it a separate download/build? I'm just unsure how to get started.
colomon or 8192 per second not counting startup time 00:15
unless you're doing timings on a raspberry pi, I greatly doubt my system is actually 10x faster than yours
timotimo you get the same repo, and then you use ConfigureJVM.pl in nqp/ and in / and then you get a "perl6" binary (shell script actually) that you can just run after you "make install" 00:16
so basically you git clone github.com/rakudo/rakudo and inside you clone github.com/perl6/nqp and inside nqp you ConfigureJVM.pl, make, make install and in rakudo you ConfigureJVM.pl --with-nqp=nqp/install/nqp, make, make install
that's all. you do need at least java7 to do it, though
i have an idea why it may be wrong actually 00:17
augustus timotimo: Ok, that sounds pretty easy then. Once built, I can just run my scripts like nothing's different?
timotimo yes, indeed
well, that's the idea anyway
augustus :)
timotimo if you have trouble, you're probably running into some bug and should report that here, but so far things have been going great
be sure to try the async sub :3 00:18
augustus ok cool. Do you have any idea whether anybody else is looking into running in a servlet environment? eventually I want to go that direction
timotimo i don't know of any such plans. if you experiment with that, i'd be interested to read your blog posts ;) 00:20
augustus In general, how much work is involved "thunking" between p6 and java?
I would assume that I would make simple wrapper classes in java that call into simplified perl code since java obv won't understand p6 objects 00:21
timotimo i can link you to code for both directions, hold on 00:22
augustus cool 00:23
timotimo huh, where is the evalserver at 00:25
ah, in nqp
github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/c154ef8d...erver.java - this is how you execute nqp-based code from java 00:26
augustus ok lemme take a look 00:27
timotimo github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/5cab...reading.pm - this is how you use java classes from inside perl6
(the latter will get a layer of sugar coating at one point)
augustus is it hooking up stdin and stdout to sockets, or is the socket part a superflous part of this example? 00:29
timotimo the socket is to connect with the evalclient 00:30
it's to get a spectest run through in less than 2 days ;)
the startup time really is dreadful
augustus just trying to understand the overall architecture here. the nqp interpreter is being fired up in another thread, and then connected to with a socket? 00:31
in this example, where is the perl6 code that's being fed in?
hmm, it's being fed in as an arg? 00:32
timotimo it's being fed in via the socket
evalclient receives the code to be executed as a filename as well as the secret token
it connects to the evalserver (the java code you have in front of you) and that in turn runs the code and then sends the output back to the eval client 00:33
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timotimo in fact, the evalclient seems to send over the args or something 00:33
else if (cmdStrings[1].equals("run")) { <- here begins the interesting part 00:34
augustus I think i'm getting it, you pass in the name of the class that you want to run the main function of
yeah I see the Ops.invokeMain, trying to see where Ops gets initialized 00:35
hmm must be static function
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timotimo wait, class? main function of? 00:36
are we talking about the same thing
?
augustus well the "usage" indicates you provide a main class as I read it
via the --app
"Usage: %s [-bind-stdin] -cookie <name-for-access-token-file> -app <main-class>\n" 00:37
timotimo oh?
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timotimo that's weird. but i don't know java and haven't properly looked at that code yet 00:37
augustus on a cursory reading it appears that it's searching for <main-class> and then running that, and compalins if it doesn't have an entry point?
timotimo but that's not the interesting part anyway ;) 00:38
and you're right, this Ops.invokemain comes from a class full of static methods
augustus I see it setting up a compilation unit, but I can't tell if it is feeding it some code to compile or not 00:39
timotimo colomon: t.h8.lv/p6bench/for_push_sink.html <- you were right. i forced it to not keep the stuff around, so that it properly syncs 00:40
colomon that's crazy better, eh?
timotimo yes! :) 00:41
much better asymptotical behavior
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augustus aha, I think I'm starting to get it. There's the startup command, which is what I was looking at, and then after startup, you send individual commands in the form of "run some-stuff ..." 00:43
so the actual code getting run is what gets parsed out from the socket in argv
and then passed in to invokeMain
snoopy colomon: CSS::Grammar failures should be fixed - was misusing Buf
colomon snoopy++ 00:44
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augustus timotimo: can you pass JAVA_HOME to ConfigureJVM.pl? It seems to be using /usr/bin/java which is too old 00:51
timotimo sorry, no clue :( 00:55
augustus a quick examination of the source says no. probably a good idea to add that, as lots of java people have lots of different java versions installed.
I can probably start a new shell, put the right java at the front of the path 00:57
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augustus This may be a dumb question, but is the JVM restricted to NQP, or is it full perl6? I'm still a little hazy on how much functionality is in NQP. 01:07
timotimo rakudo is implemented in nqp. both work on jvm 01:09
augustus ahh, ok. You boostrapped nqp, and that allowed full Rakudo. So I'm actually running Rakudo on JVM. Somehow I thought Rakudo was like the compiler. Is the perl6 code getting turned into byte code? 01:11
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timotimo yes, it is 01:13
you can generate your perl6 code into .jar files
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timotimo you'll still need the runtime, which isn't small, and it seems like no matter wether or not you have any possibility at all to run eval from your script, you'll have to carry around the grammar and compiler 01:14
augustus Ok, cool. So Rakudo is like the implementation of the runtime?
just trying to understand which piece is the compiler, although in perl6 land that may be a fuzzy distinction because of eval capabilities? 01:15
timotimo well, a part of the runtime functionality comes from nqp, a part comes from rakudo
rakudo is "the compiler" + core setting ("standard library" if you will) and runtime stuff ("open this file", ...)
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timotimo rakudo: my $foo := nqp::list(); nqp::push($foo, 1); say nqp::atpos($foo, 0); 01:17
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«1␤»
timotimo as you can see, you still have nqp stuff available in your rakudo-based perl6 code
so it's kind of intermingled
augustus At some point I'd have to see a diagram I think. I get the gist of most of it, but I feel some distinctions are eluding me. ATM I don't think those dinstinctions are important (to me) 01:18
timotimo i don't think they are, no
augustus Ok, just got Hello World to run! Thanks for your help! 01:20
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augustus hey, where the code says my \JVMThread, in p6, the \ no longer means reference right? Does it mean opaque or something similar? 01:23
timotimo it means something like "no container for this", but i'm not sure about the specifics
i interpret it as "pass this thing as raw as possible, don't make a container, i'll be careful with it" 01:24
augustus k. I'm gonna try and see if I can do a simple hello world by calling System.out.println. That would probably be a good example. 01:25
timotimo if you get a \ argument, you can use things like nqp::iscont to figure out if there's a container, for instance
PerlJam I thought the important thing about \foo was that it didn't accidentally provide a context (like $foo provides and item context) 01:26
s/and/an/
timotimo perhaps
augustus also, := (with the colon) is creating an alias, kind of like a reference in C++? 01:27
timotimo that's comparable, yes 01:28
its most common use case for me is preventing assignment to a list (on the left) to eagerly slurp up something that i want to be lazy
r: say "begin"; my @lazy := 1..*; say "alive"; my @a = 1..*; say "never reached";
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«begin␤alive␤never reached␤»
timotimo er, sorry :) 01:29
r: say "begin"; my @lazy := 1..*; say "alive"; my @a = 1...*; say "never reached";
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«begin␤alive␤never reached␤»
timotimo ... that's ... embarassing
r: say "begin"; my @lazy := 1..*; say "alive"; my @a = for 1..* { $_ }; say "never reached";
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Word 'for' interpreted as a listop; please use 'do for' to introduce the statement control word␤at /tmp/4WfYfvI7E9:1␤------> @lazy := 1..*; say "alive"; my @a = for⏏ 1..* { $_ }; say "never reached";␤Unexpected blo…
PerlJam augustus: re \foo, see S06:1257
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#line_1257
timotimo well, you get the idea.
augustus I think so :) 01:30
PerlJam timotimo: p6 is far lazier than you give it credit for ;) 01:31
timotimo :)
augustus so I see stuff like \JVM."method/methodname()" so I'm guessing that's how I run a java method. Any idea how I would access System.out, which is a static object? 01:32
timotimo no :(
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augustus I'm not sure where to look for the logic that is parsing out 'method/methodname' to understand the syntax. It must be different for static functions. I tried accessing a static method of System rather than accessing out, but no dice. 01:55
timotimo that's JVM internal i believe 02:00
augustus hmm that never occurred to me lol 02:03
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augustus also even though everything is static, I need to create a new object. I see now that I have a TypeObject, but I probably need a JavaObjectWrapper to call functions 02:04
* I probably need to create a new object. just guessing here 02:05
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raiph augustus: aiui: nqp is a relatively small p6 subset (lang, compiler and runtime) 02:18
not a strict subset, but pretty close
rakudo is a full p6 (compiler and runtime) that is written in itself as far as possible and in nqp for most of the rest 02:19
augustus raiph: unless I'm bootstrapping a new environment, I get the impression that I shouldn't have to use NQP directly
raiph right
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raiph NQP is playing the role of C in perl5 02:20
augustus right now I'm just trying to get a feel for how big of a challenge it will be to make some servlets (or similar) in perl6 and run them in Tomcat for example
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raiph (one key advantage is that if you know P6, it's a lot easier to become a guts hacker) 02:21
augustus yes, that seems nice
raiph i think you're way early
diakopter .. Larry's giving the SotO
.. and they're not streaming it 02:22
........ and theyre not even recording it
!!
raiph that's bizarre
diakopter well, I haven't seen a recording of it for 7 years 02:23
augustus raiph: it seems like most of the hard bits are in place, but we're not to a point of having docs so if there's nobody online when I'm here, I'm left to dig around and guess and check ;)
raiph augustus: yes. it's more extreme than usual too
cuz it's not even yet caught up with parrot 02:24
colomon .tell jnthn … if gather / take on long lists is a problem, is it also affecting lines()?
yoleaux colomon: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
raiph augustus: and jnthn and sorear are the main guys to ask questions
and sorear has been away for a while
and jnthn is going away for a week 02:25
timotimo diakopter: why isn't it like at a concert where every person holds up their phone and records? 02:26
augustus well I'm certainly just fiddling around at this point
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augustus well thanks everyone for the help, but it's closing time in these parts 02:27
timotimo good night! :)
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raiph good night 02:28
diakopter: are you at oscon, or just in touch with folk in the room? 02:38
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lizmat good *, #perl6! 05:51
jnthn: spectesting the var-traits branch, it seems to have broken "is dynamic" 05:52
or alternately, "is dynamic" was a noop before, breaks now, and the tests in t/spec/S02-names/caller.t were bogus / are bogus now 05:53
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lizmat also: "is TypeObject", e.g. as in "my %h is KeyBag", previously probably a noop, now breaks 05:58
we seem to have an unspecced mention of "is context" in "t/spec/S03-binding/scalars.t", that previously appeared to pass 06:02
"will start" now bombs, rather than being a noop 06:04
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lizmat I guess this is generally for "will (phaser)" 06:05
"is readonly" apparently is not specced as a variable trait, but is spectested as such in t/spec/S06-traits/is-readonly.t, and now bombs 06:09
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lizmat same applies for "is rw" 06:13
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lizmat This concludes my testing on the "var-traits" branch 06:14
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lizmat spectesting fixes for "is rw", "is readonly" 06:26
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vishal_ hii 06:36
whats new in perl . 06:37
.6
lizmat hi vishal_ , when was the last time you checked ?
vishal_ hi lizmat ...its my first time .... 06:38
lizmat have you checked perl.org ? 06:39
perl6.org rather
if you're well versed in Perl 5, you might find perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6 an interesting read 06:40
vishal_ honestly speaking .. no
i chcked from other sites
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vishal_ ok i 'll get through it . 06:41
FROGGS vishal_: this might be a start too: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6
vishal_ is it good to stick to perl .. and not to go after many languages .... 06:42
just in regard to future prospect .
FROGGS good question
lizmat as we say in dutch: "We of WC-Duck recommend WC-Duck" 06:43
FROGGS IMO you always benefit the more languages you know
dalek kudo/var-traits: c428a37 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Add "is readonly" and "is rw" traits on variables
 06:44
lizmat that was LHF
vishal_ guys i have started git too as a part of project ... @ rakudo
the link u share contains info. of git ..... 06:45
lizmat vishal_: you mean the link in the messages from dalek?
those are simply references to changes to Perl 6 just made 06:46
FROGGS vishal_: so a dev can review the commits of another, and everybody knows what's going on
vishal_ yes.. 06:48
dalek kudo/var-traits: 7b901bd | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Add stubs for "is dynamic" and "is context", so at least they don't bomb like before
 06:51
kudo/var-traits: c73fd26 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Add "is TypeObject" and "of TypeObject" traits
 06:58
kudo/var-traits: 17f6fe0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Some code cosmetics and comments in variable traits
 07:02
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lizmat breakfast& 07:28
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hoelzro r: @*ARGS=('foo', '--type=value', 'bar') sub MAIN(*@args, *%kwargs) { say @args; say %kwargs; } 07:37
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/zxdbCGbrsp:1␤------> @*ARGS=('foo', '--type=value', 'bar') ⏏sub MAIN(*@args, *%kwargs) { say @args; ␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix…
hoelzro =(
so, I think I found another bug with MAIN
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lizmat std: my $a will leave 42 07:49
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing block at /tmp/0Lp963n3G8 line 1:␤------> my $a will leave ⏏42␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 42m␤»
dalek kudo/var-traits: f4b2ce4 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Stub phaser traits: alas, dispatch is not yet successful
 07:51
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lizmat Is there a difference between "my Int $a", "my $a is Int" and "my $a of Int" ? 07:54
JimmyZ I think Syn said it 07:55
GlitchMr lizmat: Only 'my Int $a' works. 07:56
lizmat well, currently, yes 07:57
GlitchMr Two others are syntax errors.
std: my $a is Int
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
GlitchMr Or not
timotimo hehe :)
GlitchMr n: my $a is Int 07:58
camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Trait name not available on variables at /tmp/HnYyj0a4bo line 1 (EOF):␤------> my $a is Int⏏<EOL>␤␤Potential difficulties:␤ $a is declared but not used at /tmp/HnYyj0a4bo line 1:␤------> my ⏏[3…
JimmyZ lizmat: search Container in S02
timotimo can === cause "cannot look up attributes in a type object"?
GlitchMr In Rakudo is/of means nothing.
For simple scalar variables.
In Niecza, it's an error.
STD doesn't notice.
timotimo r: class FooThing { has $.col; }; FooThing.new() === FooThing.new();
camelia rakudo 117beb: ( no output )
GlitchMr "is" means the scalar itself is implemented by a class. 07:59
lizmat ok, so "my Int $a" and "my $a of Int" is the same 08:00
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timotimo r: class FooThing { has @.foo; }; FooThing.new.foo.push(1) 08:00
camelia rakudo 117beb: ( no output )
GlitchMr No
timotimo ... huh
GlitchMr Actually, let me check
lizmat JimmyZ++ 08:01
timotimo tries to modernize Druid 08:02
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GlitchMr Actually, yes 08:03
Sorry for confusion
JimmyZ r: my Hash[Array] %book; 08:04
camelia rakudo 117beb: ( no output )
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dalek kudo/var-traits: fca7ef6 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Make variable "is" trait a stub again, it is not the same as "of"
 08:09
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timotimo apparently there once was a "defined" 08:09
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timotimo what's the modern equivalent? blah.defined, right? 08:09
GlitchMr defined 08:10
Or method
timotimo # Looks like you failed 24 tests of 30
GlitchMr rn: my Int $variable; say defined $variable; say $variable.defined;
camelia rakudo 117beb, niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«False␤False␤» 08:11
GlitchMr std: my Int $variable; say defined $variable; say $variable.defined;
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 43m␤»
timotimo r: my Int $var; say !defined $var;
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«True␤»
timotimo huh?
GlitchMr $var contains (Int), the class itself.
So it isn't defined.
timotimo right. 08:12
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timotimo i was confused because i thought i had been getting an error from that syntax 08:12
but that turns out not to be the case
GlitchMr rn: say (9/7).new(7, 3)
camelia rakudo 117beb, niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«2.333333␤»
GlitchMr Interesting. I guess it's because instances of objects also have .new. 08:13
timotimo an excellent way to not get the changes you expect is to forget make, but then use -Iblib/lib
arnsholt timotimo: I do that with alarming frequency =) 08:14
GlitchMr rn: say Date.new.new.new.new.new('2011-11-11') 08:15
camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Undeclared name:␤ 'Date' used at line 1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1502 (die @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 36) ␤ at /home/p…
..rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«2011-11-11␤»
timotimo aaaah, i get what caused the error 08:17
it looked like ok defined foo, "some message"
apparently the code at one point hoped for "defined" to not grab the "some message" as well 08:18
r: use Test; my Int $a; ok !defined $a, "everything is okay"; 08:19
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling proto of 'defined' will never work with argument types (Int, Str) (lines 1, 1)␤ Expected: :(Mu )␤»
GlitchMr The issue is that Perl 6 doesn't have prototypes (of course, you can use prefix:<defined>, but I don't think any builtin function does that).
timotimo right
GlitchMr Well, Perl 5 prototypes.
timotimo yes 08:21
moritz we had 'defined' as a prefix, and it was confusing as hell
timotimo "result: PASS" 08:23
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dalek kudo/sized-arrays: cecbc1b | Arcterus++ | src/ (2 files):
Sized arrays now work for attributes
 08:27
kudo/sized-arrays: 0ca221e | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Merge pull request #185 from Arcterus/sized-arrays

Sized arrays now work for attributes
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timotimo jnthn: good day :) 08:30
FROGGS hi timotimo 08:31
hi all
JimmyZ hi 08:32
FROGGS hi JimmyZ
JimmyZ: what are your plan atm?
timotimo heyo froggs 08:33
JimmyZ FROGGS: waiting for bootstarp? I guess
*bootstrap
FROGGS yeah
that would be awesome
JimmyZ the most blockers now are not that LHF 08:34
FROGGS jnthn: if you can tell me something I could prepare/do for that to make it easier for you, please tell me :o)
I mean, there are still some ops missing (the ones without tests), but dont think they are immediately needed 08:36
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timotimo oh wow! 08:53
the text display for druid appears to be working again!
the computer players like to build high, high towers it seems
jnthn FROGGS: Well, one next step is getting the MAST nodes file to compile, and after that getting QAST -> MAST compiler also building on Moar 08:58
yoleaux 02:24Z <colomon> jnthn: … if gather / take on long lists is a problem, is it also affecting lines()?
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FROGGS jnthn: I'll look into that 09:01
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jnthn yayz, vacation tomorrow 09:05
lizmat: I suspect we'd find trait stuff missing all over teh place :)
FROGGS :o)
jnthn *suspected
lizmat: I think is context and is dynamic may be "synonyms" (one is the old word for the other) 09:07
timotimo well, there you have it: github.com/timo/druid/ 09:08
jnthn lizmat: Are all the var traits spec'd?
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lizmat jnthn: is context then probably is the older one, right? 09:23
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jnthn lizmat: If it's not in spec, then I guess so... 09:23
lizmat is context is not in the spec 09:24
jnthn lizmat: Yeah, just searched and found the same...
is dynamic is there
And oes what I recall is context doing
lizmat also, with regards to "of TypeObject"
jnthn So I think "is dynamic" is the current name for that
lizmat wouldn't that be as simple as doing TypeObject.new into the value of the variable ?
jnthn Note .new 09:25
*not
It's also about setting the constraint I guess
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jnthn Needs .set_of or so, and then I guess set the value and perhaps default too. 09:25
my $x of Int; should come out working like my Int $x; 09:26
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lizmat I think we just established earlier todat that "my Int $x of Foo" is specced and not the same as my Foo $x; 09:28
jnthn does wonder a little if is and of should be handled specially inside the Actions...
my Int $x of Foo should probably be an error.
std: my Int $x of Foo;
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Invalid type name at /tmp/ZaBXEa5klx line 1:␤------> my Int $x of ⏏Foo;␤ expecting typename␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 42m␤»
jnthn std: my Int $x of Num;
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Extra 'of' type; already declared as type Int at /tmp/FFqQAwo39x line 1:␤------> my Int $x of Num⏏;␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 42m␤»
jnthn Like that.
They're saying the same thing. 09:29
dalek kudo/var-traits: 624a6e7 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
"is context" is old for "is dynamic", so we don't need it
jnthn The other interesting one is "is"
JimmyZ std: Class Foo {}; my Int $x of Foo;
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/bgM9RJxqSV line 1:␤------> Class ⏏Foo {}; my Int $x of Foo;␤ expecting any of:␤ feed_separator␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infixed function␤ statement modifier loop␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00
..43…
timotimo that depends on what your definition of 'is' is, jnthn 09:30
jnthn my int32 @x of Buf # probably wants to work...
darnit
my int32 @x is Buf # probably wants to work...
Which is like
lizmat S02:487
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#line_487
jnthn my @x is Buf of int32; # though I guess that may parse differently...
Yes, the spec seems to be agreeing with what I just said :) 09:31
of means "what can we store in this container type"
is means "what type of container is it"
timotimo: It is what it is... :P 09:32
lizmat of course
.oO( what a nice name for a variable trait: "of course" )
jnthn Anyway, I'm open to "is Type" and "of Type" being treated specially in Actions rather than being actual trait dispatches... 09:33
moritz until somebody creates a class rw { } :-) 09:34
jnthn :P
yeah
I'm fine with trying to figure out how to really implement them as traits too
But if we do that, there will certainly be an ordering dependency. 09:35
my $x is readonly is SomeOtherThing; # oops, set readonly too early
That may work out depending how we do it, I guess...
jnthn guesses he should be wary of cheating, since cheating normally gets caught... :) 09:36
lizmat why would order matter here, I mean they work on the same containerdescriptor?
or do you mean the readonly will stop further changes to the variable? 09:37
jnthn I guess it works in that case in so far as we can migrate the container descriptor to the new container type
The tricky one really is "is" 09:38
Because it's not tweaking, it's an entire replacement
lizmat ok 09:41
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lizmat what's this syntax about ? "@$+arrayref" 09:46
with "my $arrayref is dynamic = list(1,2,3);" before it
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jnthn o.O 09:47
I have NO idea!!
lizmat test was being marked for "is dynamic", but was in fact testing @$+ syntax 09:48
jnthn std: my $arrayref is dynamic = list(1,2,3); say @$+arrayref
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at /tmp/CYosDEEgBl line 1:␤------> $arrayref is dynamic = list(1,2,3); say ⏏@$+arrayref␤Use of uninitialized value $first in string eq at STD.pm line 66215.␤Use of uninitializ…
lizmat that's the error I get
jnthn lizmat: I wonder if it's meant to be @$*arrayref, which is what would make sense given the "is dynamic"...
lizmat ah, ok, maybe a leftover from the "is context" days 09:49
jnthn perhaps
lizmat std: my $arrayref is dynamic = list(1,2,3); say @$*arrayref
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 45m␤»
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lizmat tests pass if I change to @$*, so I assume that is what we want to test 09:52
jnthn :) 09:54
lizmat last test in t/spec/S04-statements/lift.t still fails 09:55
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lizmat this in conjunction with "lift" 09:55
maybe "is context" *was* already working as it should?
jnthn We don't implement lift, so I'd be very surprised if that test works... :) 09:56
lizmat std: my $a is context
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
lizmat std: my $a is foo
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
lizmat I guess the "eval_dies_ok" was failing for the wrong reason, and the change now but the breakage outside of the eval 09:57
I'll put a skip around it
shall I create a branch for these test fixes? 09:58
jnthn lizmat: To merge when var-traits merges? Sounds sane.
lizmat the only blocker I really see at the moment is "will leave BLOCK" not finding the trait mod
and thus dieing (whereas it was silently failing before) 09:59
jnthn Why can't we add a trait mod for it?
lizmat multi trait_mod:<will>(Variable:D $v, Block:D :$begin ) {
is what I have so far
it won't find it
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jnthn That needs to be a required named arg 09:59
As they are optional by default 10:00
:$leave! should do it
lizmat grrr
lemme check
pmurias jnthn: in nqp is it possible to declare a contextual without binding any value to it? (for testing purposes)
that is avid my $*FOO binding a NQPMu to $*FOO? 10:01
jnthn pmurias: Well, what are you expecting it to have?
lizmat so, wrt to "will": I guess we need to create a closure with $_ being aliased to the variable, and add that to the appropriate phaser
jnthn pmurias: You can always := nqp::null() I guess
lizmat: I was trying to work out how to do those. It's really tricky.
lizmat: Because of course there are gonna be *many* variables. 10:02
lizmat: Oh, maybe it's OK though...'cus the block is in the right place....
hmmm
lizmat: The problem is how to get the variable passed into the block as its topic I guess.
lizmat if you need better optimization, create a single phaser
yes, that's one of the things I don't see right now 10:03
the second one is adding the phaser: or is that as easy as doing Block.add_phaser?
jnthn There's probably a decent solution, I just don't immediately have it.
That second bit is easy enough, in theory
lizmat let's start by adding the phaser 10:04
I can fiddle with the rest next week
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jnthn OK. I suspect it shall be non-trivial... 10:04
lizmat adding the phaser?
jnthn No, the other bit :)
lizmat $ perl6 -e 'my $a will leave { .say }=42' 10:05
===SORRY!===
Cannot call 'trait_mod:<will>'; none of these signatures match:
:(Variable:D $v, Block:D :leave(:$leave)!)
jnthn odd 10:07
r: class A { has $!x will build { 42 } }
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot call 'trait_mod:<will>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Attribute $attr, Block :build(:$build)!)␤at /tmp/013PAOuwQz:1␤------> ␤»
jnthn d'oh, that one doesn't work either... 10:08
lizmat: Does trying Code instead of Block help?
lizmat lemme check
jnthn If so then (a) fine, maybe, and (b) something may have bitrat
lizmat nope, same error, differen list of candidates 10:13
s/Block/Code/
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lizmat maybe it fails on the Variable:D match ? 10:13
jnthn That'd be odd given the other traits work with that 10:14
lizmat: Maybe take the second constraint off and see what you get passed?
lizmat was just thinking that, checking
dalek kudo/sized-arrays: 1a8914a | Arcterus++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
Allow different values for attribute sizes
 10:18
kudo/sized-arrays: 37246ac | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
Merge pull request #186 from Arcterus/sized-arrays

Allow different values for attribute sizes
lizmat jnthn: even without constraint, it is not finding the traitmod 10:19
jnthn lizmat: ohh 10:20
lizmat is Perls/Actions, line 3634 correct ? 10:21
Perl6
jnthn yeah, that's what I was just looking at
It calls it as trait_mod:<will>($declarand, $block, :leave) for example
So that's why the dispatch fails 10:22
lizmat it should be :leave($block) ?
jnthn Good question... :) 10:28
timotimo shouldn't it be :$leave?
or that, yeha
jnthn Well, the correct signature is
multi trait_mod:<will>(Attribute:D $attr, $block, :$build!) { ... }
for example
timotimo "will build"? 10:29
jnthn We could change the way we dispatch to trait_mod:sym<will> if the spec doesn't say one way or the other, I guess...
timotimo: yes, it exists :)
timotimo reads spec 10:30
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timotimo cannot be found with google >_> 10:30
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lizmat jnthn: apparently, doing .set_of on the ContainerDescriptor, is not enough to make it "stick" like specifying it with a type object as prefix 10:38
aka: my Int $x, works, my $x of Int doesn't quite
jnthn lizmat: "stick"? 10:39
lizmat $ perl6 -e 'my $x of Int = 42'
Type check failed in assignment to '$x'; expected 'Int' but got 'Int'
jnthn lizmat: Missing nqp::decont somewhere, maybe
lizmat trying
indeed, missing decont 10:44
10:46 colomon left
timotimo àu contâiner 10:46
jnthn :P 10:47
dalek kudo/var-traits: 9057f2d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Make "will phaser {]' parameter mandatory
kudo/var-traits: 68ece49 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Make sure we decont the "of" so that it works, suggested by jnthn++
timotimo oh god no mismatching braces
jnthn omg...the world will end! 10:48
lizmat oops
what now?
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jnthn "will phaser {]' 10:49
mismatched brackets AND quotes :P
lizmat what can I say, I like to break things :-)
jnthn ;-) 10:50
lizmat and occasionally forget to press the shift key :-)
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lizmat hmmm….. "of" still has another problem: 10:58
$ perl6 -e 'my %h of Int'
===SORRY!===
Can not get attribute '$!descriptor' declared in class 'Scalar' with this object
jnthn What's your of impl look like? 10:59
lizmat nqp::getattr($v.var, $v.VAR.WHAT, '$!descriptor').set_of(nqp::decont($of));
jnthn huh...
lizmat I guess it needs to check for "meta" containers as hashes and arrays ?
jnthn um, did you mean $v.var.VAR.WHAT? 11:00
But yeah, probably...
lizmat the line was really cat-licensed from your "is default: implementation
.oO( oops, I did it again)
jnthn I can't get everything right :P 11:01
But yeah, is default will be wrong also then :) 11:02
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lizmat seems to work for single containers 11:03
$ perl6 -e 'my $a is default(42); say $a'
42
but indeed equally wrong for meta-containers: 11:04
$ perl6 -e 'my @a is default(42)'
===SORRY!===
Can not get attribute '$!descriptor' declared in class 'Scalar' with this object
jnthn Right.
lizmat will do some tests 11:05
dalek kudo-js: 3acc37a | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime/ctx.js:
Stop silently ignoring failed lookups and binds.
 11:06
kudo-js: 0fa2ec8 | (Pawel Murias)++ | / (3 files):
Implement qastnode. Marke lexicals that are not explicitly bound to anything in the Ctx so that contextual lookup works correctly.

Pass test 34-rxcodeblock.t
jnthn pmurias++
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lizmat is default with $v.var.VAR.WHAT gives: 11:16
$ perl6 -e 'my @a is default(42)'
This type does not support elems
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lizmat r: my @a:=42 # LTA error message ? 11:24
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding; expected 'Positional' but got 'Int'␤ in block at /tmp/QqFNGBXo9Y:1␤␤»
timotimo r: my @old = "hello".comb; push @old, ' ' xx (15 - +@old); say @old; 11:26
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«h e l l o ␤»
timotimo clears up "RAKUDO: " naggings from druid 11:27
rakudo surely has come a long way those four years
r: my $subname = "foobar"; say "sub foobar" ~~ / 'sub ' $subname / 11:28
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«｢sub foobar｣␤␤»
dalek kudo/var-traits: 5204a3f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Added additional dereference, as suggested by jnthn++

It doesn't break anything new, and makes some other errors messags more sane.		 11:29
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FROGGS nqp: say(nqp::objprimspec(42)) 11:31
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«0␤»
FROGGS nqp-jvm: say(nqp::objprimspec(42))
camelia nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«1␤»
lizmat jnthn: looks like MetaModel::ArrayType only has a "array_type" attribute 11:32
jnthn lizmat: ? 11:33
lizmat: Why are you looking at that?
lizmat well, to get "my @a is Int" to work
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jnthn Ah 11:33
lizmat well, to get "my @a of Int" rather
jnthn That's something completely different :)
lizmat sorry, I meant "my @a of Int"
$ perl6 -e 'my @a of Int; say @a[0]' 11:34
(Any)
r: my Int @a; say @a[0] 11:35
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
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jnthn Yeah, best I can suggest is looking at how %container_info gets populated when it sets that stuff up 11:35
lizmat ok, will do 11:36
fwiw: I'm completely blocked on "will phaser {}" 11:37
but I think we can merge the branch 11:38
and unfudge some passing TODO's, and changes some "todo"s into "skip"s
jnthn You managed to fix the trait signatures, though? 11:39
lizmat you mean: $ perl6 -e 'my $a will leave { .say }' 11:41
===SORRY!===
Cannot call 'trait_mod:<will>'; none of these signatures match:
no
:-(
jnthn What did you change it to?
lizmat back to Block, as Code or no constraint did not fix the problem
jnthn oh, you didn't do the 3-arg way I said?
lizmat did I miss something ? 11:42
you mean in Actions?
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jnthn < jnthn> multi trait_mod:<will>(Attribute:D $attr, $block, :$build!) { 11:42
Or Variable and :$leave! in your case.
lizmat missed that :-(
will do now 11:43
jnthn ah :)
lizmat with regards to adding the phaser, I assume some call to Block.add_phaser () ? 11:46
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lizmat for the block typy things ? 11:46
jnthn Yeah
You need to add it to the scope where the variable is being declared
Which *should* be something like $var.block.add_phaser('LEAVE', $block) or so 11:47
lizmat and how do I look up that scope? &?BLOCK ?
okidoki, will try
jnthn No, it's meant to be supplied by the Variable instance you get
I never tried it, but I put in code that should do it.
lizmat will see
signature dispatches now 11:48
jnthn yay
FROGGS jnthn: in nqp/parrot, smo_id is short for six model object... ?
dalek kudo/var-traits: a593d80 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Correct signature for "will phaser {}" dispatches, suggested by jnthn++
 11:49
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jnthn FROGGS: type ID 11:49
FROGGS: Parrot gives all dynpmcs a unique ID
FROGGS: So really any mention of it means "is this a 6model object"
11:49 jaldhar joined
FROGGS k 11:49
jnthn FROGGS: Over on JVM, eveyrthing is one...on Parrot we have a frothy mix :)
FROGGS yeah, right 11:50
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lizmat working almost: $ perl6 -e 'my $a will leave { say $a }' 11:54
===SORRY!===
Variable '$a' is not declared
$ perl6 -e 'my $a will leave { say "Goodbye" }' 11:55
Goodbye
I guess the first can be fixed by having $_ aliased to the variable
jnthn The first looks...tricky 11:57
std: my $a will leave { say $a }
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 44m␤»
jnthn Hm 11:58
Wonder how STD does it
We register variables a little too late, it seems...
lizmat maybe the mod_trait should pre-register the variable? 12:00
traiit_mod
.oO( shouldn't get up at 6:30 )
 12:01
jnthn No, I suspect it goes deeper than that :/ 12:03
lizmat I guess aliasing the variable to $_ will have the same probem? 12:10
problem 12:11
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jnthn There's a rather tricky compile time (when the trait applies) / runtime boundary issue here. 12:12
I'll have to think for a bit how to solve it.
It may need some kind of custom op...
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lizmat well, some of these now work 12:12
which is a hell of a lot more than before
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lizmat and the syntax doesn't bomb anymore 12:13
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jnthn aye 12:13
dalek kudo/var-traits: 4856368 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
First sort of functional phasers implementation with "will" variable trait
 12:14
lizmat $ perl6 -e 'my $a will leave { say "Goodbye" }'
Goodbye
$ perl6 -e 'my $a will pre { say "Hello" }' 12:16
Hello
moritz \o/
lizmat moritz! 12:17
moritz lizmat!
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dalek ast: 2d48e36 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S0 (3 files):
Fix tests relating to "is context", which apparently now is "is dynamic"
 12:20
moritz and...
features!
lizmat need to have some new things for next months changelog!
jnthn Aye :) 12:21
We Blob/Buf and related improvements also for this one :) 12:22
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lizmat S04:1457, shouldn't that be "will first" ? 12:25
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html#line_1457
lizmat there is no START phaser, is there ? 12:26
gfldex r: say Array ~~ Positional; subset Foo of Int|Str; sub s(Foo @foos){}; my Foo @a = 1, 'a'; s(@a);
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«True␤Constraint type check failed for parameter '@foos'␤ in sub s at /tmp/TNqMfsEC9x:1␤ in block at /tmp/TNqMfsEC9x:1␤␤»
gfldex huh? 12:27
r: say Array ~~ Positional; subset Foo of Int|Str; sub s(Foo @foos){}; my @a = 1, 'a'; s(@a);
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«True␤Nominal type check failed for parameter '@foos'; expected Positional but got Array instead␤ in sub s at /tmp/80tIdRmhAN:1␤ in block at /tmp/80tIdRmhAN:1␤␤»
12:27 dmol left
lizmat Int|Str maybe coerced into an Array? 12:27
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gfldex What i want to do is to have a typed list of Int|Str. jnthn told me to have it as a subset. However, I fail to convince rakudo to accept it as a type constrain in a signature. 12:28
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gfldex is there any spec test on subsets as type constrain in a signature? 12:29
gfldex goes have a look himself
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lizmat apparently "is start" seems reserved for state variables 12:33
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moritz gfldex: any reason not use Cool instead of Int|Str? 12:33
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moritz I mean, what about Rat, Num and all other similar types? 12:33
gfldex it's just some random types
moritz r: subset Foo of Cool where Int|Str; sub f(Foo) { }; f(42); f([]) 12:34
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter ''␤ in sub f at /tmp/KQQeYm92q9:1␤ in block at /tmp/KQQeYm92q9:1␤␤»
gfldex I actually have something reasonable (i hope) where it doesnt work. Little big that stuff for golfing.
moritz gfldex: 'subset Foo of Int|Str' doesn't do what you want. 'subset Foo of <common base typ> where <contraint>' is what you need 12:35
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gfldex r: gist.github.com/gfldex/6088554 12:40
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '@nodes'; expected Positional but got Array instead␤ in sub html at /tmp/K5pRZNM9QU:11␤ in block at /tmp/K5pRZNM9QU:15␤␤»
gfldex moritz: doesn't work for me either. Could you have a look at my gist? 12:41
dalek kudo/var-traits: 5622d4a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Add provisional "will start" state variable trait
 12:42
timotimo that doesn't do what you want to; it'd only work if you have my HTML-nodes @foo and pass that
moritz gfldex: the problem is that what you pass in is just a plain Array
gfldex: not an Array[HTML-nodes]
so, best not to use typed arrays at all for now
lizmat moritz? isn't that not eating our own dogfood? 12:43
pmurias jnthn: would it be ok if I refactored out the code that serializes the sc into a seperate method?
jnthn: that would allow me to monkey patch my serialization "caching" hack in without copy&paste 12:44
jnthn pmurias: sounds ok to me
lizmat jnthn: the Variable.$.block attribute: is that intend for "will start" ? 12:45
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jnthn If you're going to use typed arrays, you simply have to pass an array declared with a type in the first place. 12:45
It doesn't enforce it by checking all the elements of a (potentially lazy) thing, but by the declared type.
lizmat: It's intended to let you get at the block where the variable is being declared. 12:46
lizmat ah, ok
timotimo r: my Int @foo := gather { take 1; take 2; take 3; take "oh god no!" }; say @foo[^2]; say "alive!"; say @foo[^10]; say "hopefully not alive?"
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding; expected 'Positional' but got 'List'␤ in block at /tmp/0kHkC7NbQ_:1␤␤»
gfldex jnthn: so a slurpy types array will never work in perl6?
timotimo hmm.
gfldex: i once proposed to have rakudo throw an error, but people warned me it might have ecosystem fallout 12:47
r: sub foo(Int *@a) { say @a }; foo(1, 2, 3);
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '@a'; expected Positional but got Array instead␤ in sub foo at /tmp/fIpfy_LAsw:1␤ in block at /tmp/fIpfy_LAsw:1␤␤»
timotimo right. i wanted to replace that with a specific error message
github.com/timo/rakudo/compare/fai...urpy_early 12:48
gfldex i would welcome such an error message 12:51
timotimo sign the petition ;)
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moritz gfldex: lists in general have the problem that they can be infinite, so you aren't allow to reify them to check the types of the contents 12:51
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moritz either we need to find a good solution, or forbid typed arrays (except for primitive types) 12:52
timotimo native arrays can't be infinite? 12:53
pmurias what's the idiomatic way of returning two values from a method in nqp?
[$first,$second]? and my $ret = ...;$first = $ret[0];$second = $ret[1] on the caller side? 12:54
gfldex moritz: infinite lists come from a generator function with a gather/take. Would it not be possible to have a proper return type on the function and take check for that type? 12:56
JimmyZ my ($1, $2) = $ret?
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FROGGS JimmyZ: not in nqp 12:57
jnthn pmurias: That's about as good as you get 12:58
timotimo gfldex: not really a generator function per se; sometimes it's not even a block 13:00
moritz gfldex: infinite lists also come from the series operator, .map on inifinte ranges etc.
gfldex: and in some of these cases the error message would come from inside a core function, not from use-space code
that would be very, very weird
pmurias hopes when he actually gets to use full Perl 6 he won't be stuck in using the NQP subset ;)
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FROGGS are these tests supposed to fail? t/spec/S03-operators/set.rakudo.parrot and t/spec/S06-other/main-usage.rakudo.parrot? 13:20
lizmat not sure 13:22
FROGGS hmmm, main-usage passes when I run it separately
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lizmat could it be that these are awaiting the var-traits branch merge ? 13:22
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gfldex r: subset Foo of Cool where Int|Str; my Foo @a; say @a ~~ Foo; 13:23
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«False␤»
gfldex bug?
FROGGS lizmat: dunno about the set fails, but if it works when running directly it cant be because of newly added stuff 13:24
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colomon gfldex: no, @a is an Array, not a Foo 13:25
moritz gfldex: why would it be a bug?
gfldex if i tell it to be a Foo with my Foo @a; I assume it would be a Foo 13:26
dalek p: 1541771 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
fixed nqp::objprimspec
FROGGS r: say my Int @a ~~ Int
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«False␤»
FROGGS r: say my Int @a ~~ Array
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«True␤»
FROGGS r: say my Int @a ~~ Array # <---- an array where there elements are Ints
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«True␤»
dalek kudo/var-traits: 367739f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Make "my $a will foo" die with a more awesome error message
 13:27
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lizmat $ perl6 -e 'my $a will foo {}' 13:27
===SORRY!===
You can not 'will foo' on a variable
FROGGS .oO( "You shall not want foo on a variable!" ) 13:28
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jnthn lizmat: Hm, that looks unlike the normal trait mod dispatch errors? 13:28
lizmat $ perl6 -e 'my $a will foo {}'
===SORRY!===
Cannot call 'trait_mod:<will>'; none of these signatures match:
:(Attribute $attr, Block :build(:$build)!)
:(Variable:D $v, $block, @*huh)
:(Variable:D $v, $block, :begin(:$begin)!)
plus long list is what you would normally get on "will foo". I found that LTA 13:29
gfldex r: subset Foo of Cool where Int|Str; sub s(Foo @f){}; my Foo @a; s(@a); # why does that fails?
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter '@f'␤ in sub s at /tmp/Emyw_2MsdA:1␤ in block at /tmp/Emyw_2MsdA:1␤␤»
jnthn Yes, but hiding the list of options is LTA too...
dalek p: ff5be6e | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/parrot/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
Factor out the serialization into a seperate method for easier overriding.
lizmat ah, ok, in that sense
jnthn lizmat: Some combination of the two may we nice. 13:30
lizmat yes, indeed
jnthn lizmat: Like, we provide some context to say it was about the variable decl.
gfldex std: subset Foo of Cool where Int|Str; sub s(Foo @f){}; my Foo @a; s(@a); 13:32
camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ @f is declared but not used at /tmp/_ME8z3xAGZ line 1:␤------> et Foo of Cool where Int|Str; sub s(Foo ⏏@f){}; my Foo @a; s(@a);␤ok 00:00 46m␤»
lizmat so, how do I get to the dispatcher object so that I can call dispatchees on it?
jnthn You should find that it's throwing a typed exception on dispatch failure 13:33
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jnthn I suggest looking specifically for that exception type and it should contain the stuff you need 13:33
lizmat yes, but my error message is *before* we have an exception 13:34
jnthn huh?
lizmat multi trait_mod:<will>(Variable:D $v, $block, |c ) {
die "You can not 'will {c.hash.keys}' on a variable";
jnthn oh...
I thought you were doing it higher up, in World or so... 13:35
Well, &trait_mod:<will>.candidates would get you the list
lizmat okidoki
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lizmat seems lower in this case is better, so the error message can be more to the point, no? 13:36
jnthn Well, maybe, but otoh we may be able to do better with a generaler solution 13:38
r: sub foo() is barf { }
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot call 'trait_mod:<is>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U $child, Mu:U $parent)␤:(Mu:U $type, :rw(:$rw)!)␤:(Mu:U $type, :nativesize(:$nativesize)!)␤:(Mu:U $type, :unsigned(:$unsigned)!)␤:(Mu:U $type, :hidden(:$hidden)!)␤:(M… 13:39
lizmat ok, will look at that as well, but later
jnthn Well, what I'm saying is that a solution that improves all of these may be possible
Plus it could include a nice indication of where the error is.
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dalek kudo/var-traits: cbc2ce3 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Temporary more/less LTA error message for 'my $a will foo'
 13:42
lizmat ok, going off for some cycling & dinner
jnthn ok :)
lizmat jnthn: if I don't chat with you before you go, have a NICE holiday! 13:43
jnthn lizmat: I'll be about this evening, I suspect...but thanks! :)
lizmat the branch can be merged, as far as I'm concerned
later! &
[Coke] needs more coffee, some motivation, and perhaps a bottle of scotch. 13:45
colomon jnthn: I haven't let it run fully yet, but jakudo seems to be completely outperforming parrakudo on my big task from yesterday. (That is, I've let jakudo complete it in 11 minutes, and shut the parrakudo run off after a couple of hours.) 13:48
jnthn colomon: wow
[Coke] O_o 13:49
colomon btw, jnthn did you see timotimo's push benchmark from yesterday? massive, massive improvements. :) 13:50
jnthn yes :)
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colomon my son is showing me a map he drew from my tree (I am the Cheshire Cat, you see) to where he parked his X-wing. 13:52
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FROGGS *g* 13:55
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pmurias jnthn: if I want to add a role to a class at runtime I should call HOW.add_role and then HOW.compose? 14:02
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jnthn pmurias: To a class, rather than mixing into an object? I guess somehing like that, then, yes 14:09
r: class A { }; role R { }; augment class A does R { }; say A ~~ R
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤augment not allowed without 'use MONKEY_TYPING'␤at /tmp/nHglhLFwNe:1␤------> { }; role R { }; augment class A does R ⏏{ }; say A ~~ R␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤ generic role␤»…
jnthn r: use MONKEY_TYPING; class A { }; role R { }; augment class A does R { }; say A ~~ R 14:10
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«True␤»
jnthn That's what's going on in this case.
pmurias is there a sensible reason why mixing stuff into nqp::getcomp('QAST') gets ignored? 14:11
the name returned by .HOW.name doesn't change and methods aren't added?
jnthn You can't mix in to a type object; maybe that's the issue? 14:12
pmurias pastie.org/8177996 14:13
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pmurias jnthn: aha 14:14
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grondilu How is the javascript backend going? 14:24
pmurias jnthn: add_role/compose creates an ambigious dispatch exceptions from the multimethod
grondilu: I'm working on grammars atm, it's passing a part of nqp tests, it can't still bootstrap itself 14:25
moritz how does the performance feel, compared to nqp-on-parrot? 14:26
pmurias I'm not running anything besides tests on it right now, so I only feel the startup 14:27
which is dominated by the compilation speed 14:28
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pmurias moritz: but the performance right now should be pretty horrible as I'm doing things like emitting nqp.op.add_i(a,b) instead of a+b 14:30
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jnthn r: say 141.base(16) 14:32
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«8D␤»
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[Coke] :D 14:39
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timotimo returns from a lengthy reading session in the shade of his balcony 14:43
pmurias jnthn: is it possible to remove a method using the metamodel?
jnthn pmurias: Not really
pmurias: Though method_table gives you back the real hash
pmurias: So if you remove the key from it you are manipulating the real table used to compute method caches, I guess :) 14:44
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jnthn It's a weird thing to want to do :) 14:44
pmurias I want to override a method 14:45
but removing the method using the method_table and add_method should work
needless to say it's not very elegant 14:46
jnthn Why can't you do it the normal way, using inheritance or something?
Why change the thing nqp::getcomp returns, when you could just nqp::bindcomp an updated thing?
pmurias hmm, I should try that 14:47
jnthn r: say 149.base(16) 14:53
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«95␤»
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dalek kudo-js: 0ba95ba | (Pawel Murias)++ | / (4 files):
Mix in a role with the single serialization "hack", instead of using a custom NQP branch.

Update the nqp submodule. Update the serialization format version to 6.		 15:25
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dalek kudo-js: f89475e | (Pawel Murias)++ | run_tests:
Add passing test 69,71,73 to run_tests.
 15:29
pmurias jnthn: we should propably delete the cached_serialization branch
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jnthn pmurias: sure...if it's never getting merged, etc. 15:34
pmurias: You have a commit bit to do it, yes? :)
pmurias it seems to be still visible on github 15:38
I did git push origin --delete cached-serialization
should I use the github "Delete branch" button?
FROGGS git push origin :cached-serialization 15:39
jnthn What FROGGS said. It's a weird syntax, but actaully a degenerate case of the more general refspec syntax. 15:41
Same thing that lets you do git push origin HEAD~2:master to push all but the last two commits, for example.
benabik --delete should do the same thing.
jnthn Oh? :) 15:42
benabik: How new is that, ooc?
pmurias 1.7.0
the github ui just seems to have a bug and hasn't noticed the branch is deleted yet 15:43
dalek kudo-js: 44fee2f | (Pawel Murias)++ | run (2 files):
Implement nqp::atpos_i, pass test 74.
 15:47
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[Coke] pmurias++ 15:55
15:58 Shozan is now known as SHODAN
[Coke] OH NOES ITS SHODAN 16:01
... I wonder if I still have a machine I can play that game on. hurm.
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SHODAN B-b-b-e quiet, insect! 16:01
timotimo [Coke]: i recently managed quite well with dosbox and the mouseview patch; even got it at a pretty high resolution :) 16:02
"recently" is one or two years ago
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SHODAN yep works in dosbox 16:03
and if anyone is interested, you can help with sf.net/projects/abysmal :) 16:04
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FROGGS what are you talking about? 16:19
timotimo shodan is the antagonist of critically acclaimed first-person action role playing game System Shock 16:22
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timotimo oh, huh 16:31
r: my @a = <a b c d e f g>; for @a -> $a, $b?, $c?, $d? -> $_ is copy { $_ //= ''; say "$a $b $c $d" }; 16:32
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing block␤at /tmp/rO8LiRozjG:1␤------> c d e f g>; for @a -> $a, $b?, $c?, $d? ⏏-> $_ is copy { $_ //= ''; say "$a $b $c␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ parameterized block␤ …
timotimo r: my @a = <a b c d e f g>; for @a -> $a, $b?, $c?, $d? { for $a, $b, $c, $d -> $_ is copy { $_ //= ''; say "$a $b $c $d" } }
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«a b c d␤a b c d␤a b c d␤a b c d␤use of uninitialized value of type Mu in string context in block at /tmp/HYiTzpfkew:1␤␤e f g ␤use of uninitialized value of type Mu in string context in block at /tmp/HYiTzpfkew:1␤␤e f g ␤use of uninitialized value of type Mu in …
timotimo that's not the error i was getting. hold on.
... that's not the output i expect at all! 16:33
jnthn timotimo: Did you mean to put that say outside of the inner loop? 16:35
timotimo what i got was Nominal type check failed for parameter 'lhs'; expected Any but got Mu instead
for the //=
er, yes i totally did. thanks!
it can be quite hard to do these one-liners properly in just an irc client 16:36
r: my @a = <a b c d e f g>; for @a -> $a, $b?, $c?, $d? { for $a, $b, $c, $d -> $_ is copy { $_ //= ''; print "$_ " }; print "\n" }
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«a b c d ␤e f g Nominal type check failed for parameter 'lhs'; expected Any but got Mu instead␤ in sub METAOP_TEST_ASSIGN:<//> at src/gen/CORE.setting:14713␤ in block at /tmp/XRK1XOPx2R:1␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:6542␤ in method reify at src/gen…
timotimo is that an "is copy" bug?
jnthn r: my $x = Mu; say $x // 42 16:37
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«42␤»
jnthn r: my $x = Mu; $x //= 42; say $x
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter 'lhs'; expected Any but got Mu instead␤ in sub METAOP_TEST_ASSIGN:<//> at src/gen/CORE.setting:14713␤ in block at /tmp/own174feeY:1␤␤»
jnthn There's the bug
timotimo ah, pointy blocks have Mu instead of Any as their type, right? 16:38
jnthn Right
timotimo so in reality, metaop_test_assign should really just be able to handle undefined values of mu?
jnthn It's od though, 'cus
sub METAOP_ASSIGN(\op) { -> Mu \a, Mu \b { a = op.( a // op.(), b) }
}
oh, test assign!
yes, should be Mu 16:39
timotimo i can make a spectest and patch later
jnthn Should take Mu \lhs
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timotimo r: say " four".subst(" ", " ").perl 16:44
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«" four"␤»
timotimo r: say " eight".subst(" ", " ").perl
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«" eight"␤»
timotimo huh. weird.
jnthn Want :g?
timotimo nope, but what i did want was min instead of max :)
timotimo is writing a short perl script to arrange words and numbers in columns of 20 and "compensate" for too long columns in the next column 16:45
not really working though
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PerlJam timotimo: use formats ;) 16:45
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timotimo i was going to, but that would have been fiddly with compensation, too 16:47
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[Coke] Did damian implement formats for six, or only five? 17:00
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[Coke] hopefully will be easier with sprintf fixes in the pipeline. 17:03
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colomon pipeline? 17:14
[Coke] ... or are you done now? ;) 17:15
pmichaud_ good afternoon, #perl6 17:16
jnthn o/ pmichaud 17:17
[Coke] pmichaud: hio!
timotimo huh.
$=pod<dictionary>[0].content[0] works, but BEGIN { $=pod<dictionary>[0].content[0] } doesn't; do i have to use a later-but-still-compile-time phaser if i want to access pod because it's composed when parsing is finished? 17:18
jnthn timotimo: Did you try CHECK?
timotimo i will now 17:19
i wasn't sure if check was compile time, but now i remember (impossible dispatches are check-time errors after all!)
colomon [Coke]: I'm not done done, but most of the basic functionality is there. The only issues I'm really aware of is returning unwanted zeros at the end with %g and not handling NQP bigints properly. 17:20
timotimo postcircumfix:<{ }> not defined for type Array :(
oh, maybe i shouldn't use curlies?
nope :( 17:21
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timotimo d'oh i think the error was coming from somewhere else. should have used --ll-exception to be sure 17:27
dalek rl6-roast-data: dfdf4ee | coke++ | / (5 files):
today (automated commit)
 17:44
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[Coke] getting IO-Socket-INET failures on rakudo.pvm - "took too long" 17:46
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lizmat [Coke]: wrt to IO-Socket-INET failures: I put in those checks 18:46
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lizmat that test is hanging 7 x 20 seconds on certain actions: this smells of a timeout / buffering issue that needs to be worked out before we can really start to use sockets in rakudo 18:47
[Coke] ok. they're failing.
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lizmat I put in 20 or so checks: each gets 5 seconds to complete. If it takes more than 5 seconds, it's a fail 18:47
all of the failing tests take exactly 20 seconds to run 18:48
like the issues we found yesterday with push and sink context, there is something really wrong there! 18:49
pmichaud o/
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lizmat [Coke] am I correct in seeing that the IO-Socket-INET errors don't occur on rakudo.jvm ? 18:59
if so, is that because they pass, or because they aren't run?
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jnthn Aren't run; there are no sockets yet on JVM 19:05
timotimo i don't think we have sockets on rakudo.jvm yet
TimToady lizmat: yes, START is gone; START was renamed to statement_prefix:once 19:14
lizmat but "is start" as a variable trait, is still supposed to be there, right ?
TimToady because it's not really a phaser that changes time of execution, just whether it executes
I don't know what it would mean
state $x = 0; is really just: once my $x = 0; 19:15
lizmat sorry, I meant "will start"
TimToady there is no "start" time
lizmat so S04:1457 is obsolete / bogus ? 19:16
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html#line_1457
TimToady it's just in the line of normal execution, only it just does it once
lizmat as is S04:1480 ?
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html#line_1480
TimToady yes, obsolete
didn't see that when I made the START -> once transition, because it wasn't uppercase :) 19:17
dalek kudo/var-traits: 4c5a6c0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
Make variable trait "is TypeObject" fail with a better message for now
TimToady START was badly named anyway... 19:18
lizmat well, it was a start :-) 19:20
.oO( feelings of dëjà vu )
I'm about to merge the var-traits branch 19:24
after that, "is default" should work on typed scalars
and "will phaser {}" will sort of work as well
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dalek ast: 2baf5cf | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-types/key (2 files):
Hopefully correctly change "is KeyXxxx" to "of KeyXxxx", tests pass
 19:36
moritz fwiw I can confirm that the last two tests of t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t time out on parakudo 19:41
dalek ast: a9ee8a3 | moritz++ | S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.sh:
[sockets] report timeout when the server was actually killed
 19:46
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moritz r: say Buf.new().elems 19:47
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«0␤»
dalek ast: c009fef | moritz++ | S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.pl:
[sockets] do not hardcode length of buffer
 19:50
moritz all of this is just prettifying things, not actually fixing anything :(
dalek ast: e23388c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-types/key (2 files):
Fudge keyset/keybag tests: the tests were for "is KeyBag/Set" after all
Heuristic branch merge: pushed 20 commits to rakudo/nom by lizmat 19:51
moritz r: say Buf.new() eqv Buf.new(); 19:52
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«True␤»
moritz lizmat, jnthn: the socket tests on parakudo hang here: say $binary eqv $recv ?? 'OK-7' !! 'NOK-7'; 19:54
it's not the sockets that timeout, but the eqv
jnthn wtf! 19:55
Does Buf eqv somehow have crazy bad performance?
lizmat and the watchdog makes it show up as 20 second timouts? 19:56
moritz lizmat: correct
lizmat is glad she added the timeout tests :-)
moritz I just did
my Buf $b1 = slurp('README', :bin);
my Buf $b2 = slurp('README', :bin);
say $b1 eqv $b2;
jnthn [&&] $a.list Z== $b.list
moritz and it exceeds my patience, nearly
jnthn: I guess I wrote that code, once :/ 19:57
jnthn It's cute ;)
timotimo cute code, but probably abysmal performance :D
does [&&] know how to short-circuit?
moritz ok, 39s for comparing two Buf copies of the README
jnthn timotimo: I sure hope so... 19:58
moritz timotimo: I think so, but they actually are the same
timotimo oh, right.
moritz $ wc -c README
5052 README
so, the sockets test (4096 bytes) will probably take just as long
timotimo r: [&&] (True xx 100, False, True xx 10000); say time - CHECK time 19:59
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«2␤»
timotimo yeah, that seems good
or maybe that didn't flatten.
jnthn r: my $b = ('a' x 10000).encode; my $n = now; $b.list; say now - $n 20:01
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«0.80859796␤»
moritz ok, eq is much faster than eqv
timotimo is it also correct?
moritz and eq just compares stringification of .list
timotimo ah, that's how
moritz so quite some potential for optimization still 20:02
jnthn $a.list eq $b.list is not exactly fast either :)
moritz aye
I'll do the coward's patch (change eqv to use eq), which will get the tests passing
timotimo hey
how about you eqv the .list's of both?
moritz and let somebody else do the Real Work[tm]
dalek ast: 9bdb8f9 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02- (2 files):
Unfudge now passing tests after merge of var-traits branch
 20:03
moritz timotimo: probably slower than eq
timotimo OK
timotimo imagines one could do something like memcmp by exposing a nqp op for buf equality
jnthn moritz: I'm doing a better eqv patch here 20:04
The README buf comp is 14s here o.O 20:05
jnthn builds the improvement
moritz jnthn: great, then I can abort my slow-as-hell spectest here :-)
lizmat that should take up to 2 minutes off the spectest, if run in parallel probably around 1 minute 20:06
wallclock 20:07
moritz because the inet tests don't time out anymore? 20:08
lizmat indeed… in parallel test, the IO-Socket-INET was always the last to finish
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lizmat about 1 minute *after* all the other tests finished 20:08
TimToady: I wonder whether .push shouldn't have a ":bind" adverb, to bind the values to the list, rather than copying 20:10
consequently, I think .classify and .categorize should have the same :bind adverb and pass that through to .push 20:11
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lizmat TimToady: does that make sense? 20:11
also, I think KeyBag might want to have a .classify and .categorize as well 20:12
if you're just interested in counts
r: my $x is readonly=5 # is this supposed to work? 20:15
camelia rakudo 117beb: ( no output )
lizmat r: my $x is readonly=5; say $x # is this supposed to work?
camelia rakudo 117beb: OUTPUT«5␤»
timotimo lizmat: i believe so (i read it in an RT somewhere)
"is readonly" shoud allow assignment exactly once
jnthn Around 14 times faster
moritz \o/
timotimo ... it's a start ;) 20:16
jnthn It'll deal with the spectest fallout at least.
moritz though 1s for comparing 4k of buffer two ways still isn't too great
jnthn yeah
lizmat is looking forward to spectest that! 20:17
moritz push! push! push!
fwiw the speedup from my patch was only a factor 8
jnthn oh, I was spectsting rather than pushing :P 20:19
timotimo what speaks against doing it as a nqp op? at least for the native buffer objects it should be ridiculously fast with just a memcmp
jnthn timotimo: Nothing other than not got time for that righ tnow 20:20
timotimo cool. i could try it some time then :)
moritz
.oO( push or it didn't happen )
lizmat
.oO( it's not like it's a 6.1kg baby )
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moritz anybody want to spectest gist.github.com/moritz/6092037 for me? 20:37
moritz -> sleep 20:38
lizmat will do, moritz, and gnight!
…. building 20:40
dalek kudo/nom: 35818f8 | jnthn++ | src/core/Buf.pm:
Optimize Buf.eqv a bit.
 20:41
lizmat will spectest that in a few minutes :-) 20:51
lizmat wishes for a phaser to be executed after a thunk has executed 20:52
would be a nice way to solve the "my $x is readonly=5" problem
jnthn: would you object if I changed the "rw" attribute in ContainerDescriptor to "readonly" and switch the meaning around? 20:55
jnthn lizmat: We used to have it that way around and changed it.
lizmat and the reason was? 20:56
jnthn lizmat: Turns out readonly being the default tends to be righter in more cases.
lizmat: Certainly we've had a bunch less bugs this way around...
lizmat couldn't you set the default to 1? 20:57
jnthn What problem would swapping it around solve? 20:58
lizmat currently, this doesn't work:"my $x is readonly=5"
because $x is readonly before the 5 is assigned
jnthn Right.
The solution to that is probably to treat initializers differently to normal assignments. 20:59
lizmat but wouldn't that cause a lot of overhead?
my idea was:
jnthn Depends how you do it, but the parser already distinguishes the two
lizmat ContainerDescriptor.readonly: possible values: 0 = rw, 1 = readonly, >1 readonly, but allow N-1 assignments 21:00
jnthn That won't work
lizmat then in rakudo_scalar_store update the readonly in the descriptor when needed 21:01
jnthn You need one assignment per incarnation of the variable, not one i the lifetime of the program.
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lizmat ah, ok 21:01
good point
lizmat scratches that idea
jnthn I think it wants to be something related to the initializer, though. 21:02
lizmat moritz: spectest is clean gist.github.com/moritz/6092037
jnthn We already know that has to be special.
In fact, we already do specail things there for state vars.
lizmat ok, will check the parser for initializations, and state vars in particular
now buiilding / spectesting jnthn's Buf optimization 21:03
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pmurias pmichaud: ping 21:05
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lizmat jnthn/moritz: alas, no improvement in t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t, still 7 failures because of timeout after 20 seconds 21:19
jnthn wtf 21:20
FROGGS gnight o/ 21:21
lizmat wish I had better news
gnight FROGGS!
I assume moritz' patch was unrelated?
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grondilu While trying to rebootstrap panda: 21:29
==> Testing File::Tools
t/01-file-find.t ...... Failed 1/10 subtests
lizmat jnthn: wrt to "my $x is readonly=5", I guess some magic would need to be added at Actions, around line 1792, right ?
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lizmat $past := assign_op($/, $past, $<initializer>[0].ast); 21:30
jnthn lizmat: yeah
lizmat: We already have an nqp::assignunchecked op, which skips the rw check and the type check...
lizmat aha, ok
jnthn lizmat: But we kinda want the type check still...
The idea is that the optimizer will rewrite assignments it proves are safe at some point in the future, though. 21:31
grondilu ran PERL6LIB=lib perl6 t/01-file-find.t
not ok 10 - found one of two files due to X::IO::Dir
# got: '2'
# expected: '1'
# Looks like you failed 1 tests of 10
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lizmat so line 4680, change 'p6store' to 'assignunchecked' depending on a condition ? 21:33
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jnthn Maybe something like it...suspect it may involve a little more than that. 21:40
lizmat I think we're going about this the wrong way
I think the "is readonly" trait needs to be applied after initialization 21:41
*not* doing things unchecked
otherwise, "my $a=42; my $b is readonly := $a" will still not create a readonly container
so I'm wondering something in the form of a .whence? 21:42
grondilu tadzik: in t/01-file-find.t the last test finds two files instead of one expected. Yet in t/dir1 there are indeed two files named file.bar. One in t/dir1/ and the other in t/dir1/another_dir/. 21:44
jnthn lizmat: WHENCE is closer...
lizmat: I think you're confusing things by talking about trait application as if it were a runtime thing, which it's not.
However, the single assignment *is* a runtime thing. 21:45
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lizmat but each .WHENCE only gets executed once, no? 21:47
and then gets nulliified
the readonly trait needs to be applied after the first assignment? 21:48
and the .WHENCE is basically just a closure, no?
I know it was made to prevent auto-vivification, but this feels like a good re-purpose of that functionality 21:49
this approach would not add any overhead to the current low level scalar_store code 21:50
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lizmat for all other assignment 21:50
s
jnthn WHENCE is currently quite high overhead, though. 21:51
lizmat if (!PMC_IS_NULL(scalar->whence)) { ?
or the Parrot_pcc_invoke_from_sig_object(interp, scalar->whence, cappy); ? 21:52
the thing is, most other approaches would add overhead to *all* assignments
jnthn The latter
A p6storeevenifro wouldn't... :) 21:53
lizmat well, it would only be done once
but would that also solve the case for binding?
my $a is readonly := $b ?
jnthn Hm. I'd tended to see "is readonly" being about the container... 21:54
Which you replace when binding...
otoh, we make sure type checks are enforced on binding
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jnthn That said, we can catch such cases statically... 21:55
lizmat so you're saying we can't have a "read only" and a "rw" view on the same container
I mean, if we can't use "is readonly" with binding 21:56
then we lose all use for "is readonly"
because if we can only use that for right values, then we might as well die with a message "please bind to the right value" 21:57
aka my $x := 42
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lizmat the more I think about it, the more it doesn't make sense to have "is readonly" on variables 22:04
either you alias it to a literal, which makes it read-only 22:05
or you alias it to another container, and get the same .rw status whether you want it or not
add to that the fact that "is readonly" is not specced for variables 22:06
grondilu is confused by what lizmat says
lizmat it is specced for subs and parameters
afaik, but not for variables
grondilu indeed
oh ok 22:07
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jnthn Well, seems we're now looking at lang design, not impl :) 22:07
lizmat well, remove implementation rather than change lang design 22:08
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lizmat anyways, I'm gonna sleep over it, been a long. long day 22:08
I shouldn't get up at 6:30 and then go on until after midnight
so I'm going to catch some shuteye 22:09
jnthn: have fun in Switzerland! Come back safe!
sleep&
jnthn Will try to do so ;-) 22:10
'night
jnthn figures he should catch a few hours of rest sometime soon, given his early flight... :)
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census hey! 22:14
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jnthn vacation; bbiaweek & 22:21
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