6.2.10 released! xrl.us/hxnb | geoffb's column (/. ed): xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6 | www.geeksunite.net
Set by integral on 25 October 2005.
gaal putter: except that we do have it working :) (well, not without some hack) 00:30
but i'm not here. zzZZZ &
01:14 stevan__ is now known as stevan
stevan any Bostonians around? In particular MIT people? 02:06
I am trying to find out information about the MIT Little Languages workshop this year 02:07
putter: if you backlog,.. IIRC that is your neck of the woods,.. maybe you know something :) 02:09
ingy stevan: putter == MIT iirc
stevan putter: If it is happening, and I go, we should meet up
ingy: yeah I think you are right,.. I know he is in Mass 02:10
ingy he went to MIT
stevan ah
ingy at least he had an mit email addy once
Mitchell Charity. Know him from his many contributions to Inline 02:11
well never met him physicallt
y
stevan wonders how many people ingy *doesn't* know :) 02:12
buu ME! 02:56
dduncan ?eval @foo = [2,3]; @bar [10,20]; @foo >>+<< @bar 05:05
?eval 1
whence goes evalbot? 05:08
QtPlatypus I think it was lost in the last netsplit. 05:13
06:31 peterson_ is now known as dhpeterson
dduncan ?eval 1 07:28
evalbot_7755 1
dduncan ?eval kick it
evalbot_7755 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&kick"
dduncan evalbot came back, but svnbot didn't alas 08:01
well, nightey night
10:39 ods15_ is now known as ods15
r0nny_ yo 13:33
anyone alive ?
xinming yes.
r0nny_ any new comments on the SixPanUtils ideas ? 13:35
xinming r0nny_: Maybe, I am the worng person for you. :-P 13:37
r0nny_ hmm
maybe
anyone else any comment ? 13:41
xinming r0nny_: what that is plesae? 13:42
r0nny_ sixpan.perl6.nl/sixpan/index.cgi?SixPanUtils
basically cpan utils for perl6
oh - and the module build utils 13:43
xinming r0nny_: hmm, can we have a option to install module into ~/.perl/perl6/modules such kind of dir? 13:45
r0nny_ read - its allready there ..
Juerd: got some time ? 13:48
hmm - seems to be away 13:49
well - im going now - latter 13:50
xinming r0nny_: hmm, can module be install into a specified dir?
r0nny_ xinming: should be easy to manage latter in the process - initial versions might be a bit unflexible about such stuff 13:52
first is to manage globla install, then add user-hope install wich basically should make it flexible enough to install anywhere
global ;P 13:53
xinming how about multi versions of modules? just like can 1.0 co-exist with 2.0 ?
r0nny_ im not sure about this
casue it might create name-collisions 13:54
xinming hmm, perl 6 can choose modules for you if you specify, so,I wanna the module can be co-exist. So that, some module upgrade won't break the whole program which need the module. 13:55
rafl_ Some debian users in here? I've got some parrot packages for you that should be tested.
xinming perl6/modules/module-name/versions/module_files.
r0nny_ xinming: well - how do i tell it wich version to use ? 13:57
xinming rafl_: I am using debian, I'll be glad to be the "laboratory animal"
rafl_ xinming: Great. Uploading it..
xinming r0nny_: hmm, in perl 6, if you just specify the name of the module, choose the latest, if with version number is specified, then, choose that one... 13:58
r0nny_ hmm
then it should be no problem
rafl_ xinming: perlcabal.org/~rafl/debian/ 13:59
r0nny_ how does perl manage if u use 2 different modules, and each of them uses a different incombatible version of the same module
xinming r0nny_: hmm, why I wish to install to a specified location, is because, we might wish to be the project on a different partition, which is filled of projects, and you need `ln -s` all the modules to a project lib dir, maybe, lib/CPAN sometimes 14:01
rafl_: hold on plz
eric256_ juerd: ping
xinming r0nny_: and the modules has a working version specified for the needed module... 14:02
r0nny_: and prefer to choose the latest if not found.
hmm, Just guess. :-P 14:03
parrot_0.3.0-1_i386.deb
Is this one I should try?
rafl_ parrot-dev and parrot-doc as well. 14:04
xinming s/this one/this the one/
ok
rafl_ It's not really 0.3.0, btw. It's a current svn snapshot.
Limbic_Region for anyone interested - perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=503589 is a p6 related post on combinatorials and lazy evaluation and what not 14:05
first p6 specific post I have seen in a while
*hint hint*
xinming rafl_: hmm, Do I have to upgrade to sid? :-( 14:06
rafl_ xinming: I don't know. They're at least built against sid. 14:07
xinming rafl_: I can't install it on testing.
got the dependency problem. 14:08
rafl_ xinming: What does it complain about?
xinming dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of parrot:
parrot depends on libicu34; however:
parrot depends on libstdc++6 (>= 4.0.2-3); however:
Version of libstdc++6 on system is 4.0.2-2.
and, If I try to apt-get install libcstdc++6 or the needed module, I will also get the dependency problem 14:09
rafl_ Yes. Nevermind then..
xinming rafl_ parrot-dev and parrot-doc as well. 14:10
xinming s/this one/this the one/
oops...
root@HomePc:/home/xinming# apt-get install -f
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Correcting dependencies... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
libicu34
The following packages will be REMOVED:
parrot
The following NEW packages will be installed:
libicu34
after I `dpkg -i parrot*`, that's what apt-get install -f will show 14:11
anyone here can tell me where to find the url for autrijus' journal? 14:17
Jooon somewhere here use.perl.org/~autrijus/journal 14:18
xinming Jooon: thanks.
Limbic_Region there used to be a link on the pugs homepage
but now it links to planet pugs
xinming Limbic_Region: No, It is removed...
Limbic_Region errr
xinming yes.
Limbic_Region planet perl6 14:19
xinming wonders what autrijus do these days.
Limbic_Region: But, I have problem to access there.
Limbic_Region err - pugs even # I was right the first time
confusing - the link implies pugs but the page says planet perl six 14:20
xinming - you using planetsix.perl-foundation.org/ ?
xinming planet.pugscode.org/
Limbic_Region that just forwards to the URL I provided 14:21
xinming I can access planetsix.perl-foundation.org/
But, can't access planet.pugscode.org
Limbic_Region so you are getting to where you wanted to go
it is a phantom URL anyway
xinming The Great FireWall in China blocks too many sites. :-/ 14:22
Limbic_Region xinming - I don't understand, you are getting to the right place so why not cut out the middle man?
xinming Limbic_Region: hmm, If I use planet.pugscode.org, I will get the documents contains no data, But If I use planetsix.perl-foundation,org It will opened correctly. 14:25
rewriting the world, What does rewriting here mean? rewrite most grammars of perl 6?
rafl_ autrijus: ping 14:28
Juerd r0nny_: ? 14:31
eric256_: pong
eric256_ hey. is there a timelimit on cron jobs? make smoke, seems to die after 5 minutes, i wasn't sure if the smoke was broken or the server just shut it down 14:32
Juerd There is no time limit
eric256_ okay. /me scans error log
Juerd Which means that if you're not careful, the processes will overlap
eric256_ i only run the smoke every 6 hours 14:33
Juerd ok
eric256_ should be okay.. might goto 12 dunno
hehe it took too long and the pugs rebuild swiped the pugs executable out form under it 14:35
any ideas?
Limbic_Region xinming - as I said before planet.pugscode.org redirects to planetsix so there is NO content at planet.pugscode.org 14:36
forget that link and just go directly to planetsix
xinming - rewriting the world is meant to mean changing the world
xinming Limbic_Region: Ok. 14:37
r0nny_ re 14:41
eric256_ Juerd...for now i'm creating a pugs-smoke checkout that will build and smoke every 6 hours and just keep it seperate
r0nny_ Juerd: wanted to have a short talk about the development steps for the build sys and package manager 14:42
since it will be a bigger project and i hace no clue where to start since im used to think c++ 14:47
well - i will write the basic steps i think will be good to the wiki 14:49
sixpan.perl6.nl/sixpan/index.cgi?Si...opmentPlan <- please edit 14:56
rafl_ wonders why pugs needs a parrot src dir to build. 15:19
Shouldn't it be enough to have the headers?
eric256_ svn check 15:20
is svn bot feeling okay today?
hehe. he isn't even present... thats a crime! ;)
rafl_ eric256_: I don't think so..
15:20 rafl_ is now known as rafl 15:21 eric256_ is now known as eric256
nothingmuch we should add a new pugs logo 15:26
www.axis-of-aevil.net/archives/2005...fcare.html
Limbic_Region chuckles 15:27
rafl How to check if program foo is in path in perl5? Does a nice idiom or module exist? 15:28
Limbic_Region define path 15:31
rafl $ENV{PATH}
Limbic_Region check to see if which has been ported in the PPT
it has 15:32
search.cpan.org/~cwest/ppt-0.14/
see which
search.cpan.org/~cwest/ppt-0.14/bin/which
rafl - does that do what you want or do you need something else? 15:34
sili ppt makes me sad. 15:36
Juerd r0nny_: Sorry, I'm not interested in the packaging thing enough 15:37
Limbic_Region because?
sili because you reusing the code that was written isn't really possible
since each tool is its own script, basically
Juerd r0nny_: Please discuss your ideas with the people who do care (rafl, kane) 15:38
sili and ``... isn't pretty
r0nny_ Juerd: ok
rafl r0nny_: I am. There's already some kind of prototype.
r0nny_ rafl: where ?
eric256 sili...port ppt to p6 and base them on a nice module ;)
r0nny_ want to take a look
sili eric256: i wish i had the time
rafl r0nny_: On my disk. Let me finish a quick hack and I'll upload it.
Juerd rafl: Wow, you're quick 15:39
Limbic_Region sili - ok but making it available inside a perl module wasn't a goal of the project
theorbtwo I could have sworn there was a core module for PATH and friends, but I don't see it...
15:39 brother_ is now known as brother
sili Limbic_Region: maybe not, but it would have been so benefitial 15:40
rafl Juerd: Well, kane wrote most of it. I only fixed the parts which required some deeper Debian knowledge.
r0nny_ it required debian knowdegde ?
well - need to go away for some time 15:41
rafl Yes. It uses the .deb format from Debian and currently also the debian tools for that (dpkg, dpkg-deb) because there no perl equivalents for them yet.
r0nny_ rafl: omg - hope u get a rid of needing to use .deb soon ;P 15:42
rafl r0nny_: Why?
r0nny_: It's really mature, flexible and does what we want.
r0nny_ well - i will discuss about this issue when im back 15:43
theorbtwo Ah, File::Spec->path is what I was thinking.
rafl r0nny_: Of course, preferably in the Wiki.
theorbtwo Using .deb sounds completely reasonable to me.
rafl To kane and me as well. 15:44
Limbic_Region theorbtwo - does File::Spec->path tell you if a file exists in the path?
if not, I found a module that does
Env::Path has a whence method which will tell you if a file exists in the $ENV{PATH}
rafl Limbic_Region: I solved it in another way which doesn't require a module. 15:45
Limbic_Region: I hope which is something we can assume to be there everywhere..
But I don't think so.. ;-)
Limbic_Region which can't be assumed to be everywhere
Win32 for instance 15:46
rafl Limbic_Region: OK then. How does windows solve that?
theorbtwo Windows? Solve something? You must be joking...
rafl Limbic_Region: Can you take a look at my recent commit to Makefile.PL and make it portable?
Limbic_Region rafl - 1 question at a time
rafl - windows solves this by erroring out when it isn't in the path 15:47
theorbtwo L~R, File::Spec->path only tells you what $ENV{PATH} is; it doesn't search for things in it.
Limbic_Region AFAIK, native windows doesn't provide the ability to tell you where in the path - only if it is in the path
theorbtwo I seem to recall that there is something in inc:: that's supposed to do that, but I think I remember that only because it was buggy.
Limbic_Region if you want to know the location portably (Win32 and *nix) then use the "whence" method in Env::Path
second question, WRT Makefile.PL - I am not doing any Pugs hacking anymore but my last comment should help solve the problem 15:48
rafl goes home. 15:49
xinming ?eval class A { has @.a; sub BUILD { @a = ( "a", "", '' )} }; ?A.new.a[0]; 15:52
evalbot_7757 Error: Undeclared variable: "@a"
xinming ....
Limbic_Region rafl - I think your change to Makefile.PL is b0rk 15:53
oh, you went home
hrmm
anyone who is listening and has an opinion - feel free to speak up 15:54
apparently knowing the location of a file in $ENV{PATH} is required for something to work correctly
the way to do this on Win32/*nix is to use Env::Path - which probably won't work on Mac, VMS, etc 15:55
not that I think Parrot works on VMS yet
anyway - copy/pasting the code from the module is fairly easy as it is compact which wouldn't require adding the module
but it still won't be 100% portable 15:56
the code could be adapted to combine the search routine and File::Spec which would be portable
theorbtwo Sounds like a plan, Limbic.
Does it properly handle extensions under win32?
xinming how to test if a value is undefined? 15:57
Limbic_Region theorbtwo - if File::Spec is providing the file names and paths then it doesn't matter
xinming just if $a { true } else { false } ?
Limbic_Region the question is then who is going to adapt the search code ;-)
xinming - defined
?eval my $foo; say "undefined" if ! defined $foo; 15:58
evalbot_7758 undefined bool::true
Limbic_Region xinming - undefined didn't change behavior from p5 to p6
theorbtwo It looks like no, from a quick read of the source (it is, indeed, quite short). 15:59
Limbic_Region theorbtwo - so that means you are volunteering right ;-)
theorbtwo What I meant is that if you're looking for a command called "foo" under win32, you really want foo.{exe,com,bat,cmd,pif}.
Limbic_Region theorbtwo - that isn't needed for this specific problem 16:00
and besides - the whence routine allows for patterns not just exact file names 16:01
chomp(my $parrot_config = `which parrot-config.imc 2>/dev/null`);
that's the line that needs to be made portable
theorbtwo Hm.
OK. 16:02
Sounds like Env::Path can do that.
Limbic_Region and that is certainly doable by combining File::Spec and Env::Path
theorbtwo - it could if you didn't care about OSes other than Win32 and *nix
but I think we do
theorbtwo Oh, right -- the path might not be in $ENV{PATH}. 16:04
Limbic_Region notes the time and heads for lunch
theorbtwo Have a good one.
Limbic_Region actually - I think Perl makes $ENV{PATH} portable - that's not the problem
the problem is searching in $ENV{PATH}
delimiters and extensions and what not
Luna hola
Limbic_Region salutations 16:05
theorbtwo - if you read the source for Env::Path - it is doing some / and \ conversions prior to searching - that needs to be extended beyond Win32
and *nix
in any acct - I am off for lunch 16:06
rafl Limbic_Region: b0rked in which way? 16:10
xinming ?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; $1; 16:12
evalbot_7758 \MkMatch {matchOk = True, matchFrom = 0, matchTo = 0, matchStr = "", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = {}}
xinming ?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; $1 ?? "true".say !! "false".say ;
evalbot_7758 true bool::true
xinming Is this the right behaviour?
rafl I don't think so. 16:14
xinming It seems, that it returned a null string with `but true` 16:15
eval? my $a; $a = "abc" ?? "bcd" !! $a = "false"; 16:19
?eval my $a; $a = "abc" ?? "bcd" !! $a = "false";
evalbot_7758 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "bcd"
xinming how about this? 16:20
nothingmuch do roles have no instance data? 16:24
xinming: ?? !! is lvalue
xinming ?eval my $a; my $b; $a = "abc" ?? "bcd" !! $b = "false"; 16:25
evalbot_7758 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "bcd"
xinming Do we have to write this using if statement?
nothingmuch: ??
nothingmuch ?eval my $x = 0; my $y; my $z; $x ?? $y !! $z = "foo"; $y.perl ~ " " ~ $z.perl
evalbot_7758 "\\undef \\\"foo\""
nothingmuch ?eval my $x = 1; my $y; my $z; $x ?? $y !! $z = "foo"; $y.perl ~ " " ~ $z.perl 16:26
evalbot_7758 "\\\"foo\" \\undef"
nothingmuch what you wantes is probably !! ($a = "foo")
xinming thanks. :-) 16:28
nothingmuch what were you trying to do, btw? 16:30
?eval my $x = 1; my $y; my $z; $x ?? $y !! $z = "foo"; ($y, $z)
evalbot_7758 (\"foo", \undef)
nothingmuch that's simpler ;-)
xinming nothingmuch: hmm, I want to try if we can assign a value using $x ?? true !! false statement instead of if. ;-) 16:32
theorbtwo Except the $y is being used in void context for some reason...
nothingmuch yes, you can
theorbtwo ?eval my ($x, $y); $x = $y ?? 'true' !! 'false'; $x
evalbot_7758 \"false"
theorbtwo ?eval my ($x, $y)=1; $x = $y ?? 'true' !! 'false'; $x
evalbot_7758 \"false"
xinming theorbtwo: hmm, I don't mean this.
nothingmuch oh, that's what you're checking
theorbtwo ?eval my ($x, $y)=(0,1); $x = $y ?? 'true' !! 'false'; $x
evalbot_7758 \"true"
nothingmuch ?eval my ($x, $y) = 1; ($x, $y) 16:33
evalbot_7758 (\1, \undef)
nothingmuch that's expected
xinming ?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1..Inf; ($x, $y);
evalbot_7758 (\1.0, \2.0)
xinming ?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1..Inf by 3; ($x, $y);
evalbot_7758 Error: unexpected "b" expecting term postfix, operator, "does", "but", "is", "^..^", "cmp", "<=>", "^..", "..^", "..", ";" or end of input
xinming hmm...
bbl 16:34
can we make a step?
Just like, 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21 such kind of list? 16:35
?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1..Inf :by(3); ($x, $y); 16:36
evalbot_7758 Error: unexpected ":" expecting term postfix, operator, "does", "but", "is", "^..^", "cmp", "<=>", "^..", "..^", "..", ";" or end of input
theorbtwo wonders why it lists "operator" and several individual operators, and why he doesn't remember those ^..^ smiliey things. 16:37
ajs_ In S03 under new operators: The .. binary range operator has variants with ^ on either end to indicate exclusion of that endpoint from the range. 16:44
So 1^..^3 would be (2)
xinming amazing... 16:46
?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1^..^Inf; ($x, $y); 16:47
evalbot_7758 (\2.0, \3.0)
xinming ?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1..^Inf; ($x, $y);
evalbot_7758 (\1.0, \2.0)
xinming ?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1..^..^..Inf; ($x, $y);
evalbot_7758 Error: unexpected "^" expecting term
nothingmuch xinming: err, what are you trying to do? 16:50
xinming nothingmuch: I wish I will be able to get a step for 1..Inf 16:51
Just like It will auto generate 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, ... Inf
nothingmuch ( grep { ($_ - 11) % 4 == 0 } .. Inf ))[1 .. 10) 16:56
?eval( grep { ($_ - 11) % 4 == 0 } .. Inf ))[1 .. 10]
evalbot_7758 Error: unexpected ")" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
nothingmuch ?eval (grep { ($_ - 11) % 4 == 0 } .. Inf )[1 .. 10]
evalbot_7758 Error: cannot cast from VCode (MkCode {isMulti = False, subName = "<anon>", subType = SubBlock, subEnv = Just (MkEnv {envContext = CxtItem (mkType "Any"), envLValue = False, envLexical = MkPad (padToList [("$?1",[(<ref>,<ref>)]),("$_",[(<ref>,<ref>)]),("$code",[(<ref>,<ref>)]),("$lang",[(<ref>,<ref>)]),("&?BLOCK_EXIT",[(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>)]),("&break",[(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>)]),("&c
nothingmuch eep, i'm drunk
?eval grep { ($_ - 1) % 4 == 0 } ... Inf
evalbot_7758 Error: unexpected "I" expecting operator, ":", ",", term postfix, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
nothingmuch ?eval grep { ($_ - 1) % 4 == 0 } 1 .. Inf
?eval (grep { ($_ - 1) % 4 == 0 } 1 .. Inf)[0 .. 10] 16:57
i think i fried it
xinming you are drunk...
nothingmuch is grep lazy?
evalbot_7758 (no output)
nothingmuch ?eval (grep { ($_ - 1) % 4 == 0 } 1 .. 1000)[0 .. 10]
(not spec grep, current prelude grep)
evalbot_7758 (no output) 16:58
[1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41]
nothingmuch will do a haskell version with fold 16:59
no, that doesn't work out well 17:01
Limbic_Region rafl - b0rk in that it isn't portable 17:07
rafl Limbic_Region: Yes, indeed. It only works on UNIX platforms. How to do that better? 17:08
Limbic_Region you can immediately improve the portability by using 'whence' from Env::Path
that will cover *nix and Win32
the problem is supporting other platforms 17:09
to do that - you have to combine code from 2 modules - File::Spec and Env::Path
that is what I was discussing right before going to lunch
the code from Env::Path is quite small so modification shouldn't be that difficult 17:10
and theorbtwo was just about to volunteer 17:11
svnbot6 r7756 | eric256++ | Add doc links for several tests in /t/operators 17:12
r7757 | eric256++ | Fixed typo in last commit
r7758 | rafl++ | r18808@ata: rafl | 2005-10-28 17:44:31 +0200
r7758 | rafl++ | * debian/control: Build-Depend on parrot-dev for parrot embedding.
r7758 | rafl++ | * Makefile.PL: Some fixes for parrot header detection.
rafl Limbic_Region: Commiting another possibility.. 17:13
Limbic_Region sees what it takes to hack Env::Path's whence and File::Spec to make it work universally 17:15
svnbot6 r7759 | rafl++ | r18815@ata: rafl | 2005-10-28 19:24:35 +0200 17:24
r7759 | rafl++ | * Make pugs detection a bit more portable.
r7759 | rafl++ | * Embed parrot in the debian package as default.
Limbic_Region rafl - I figured out how to make it portable without using Env::Path at all 17:32
and without invoking a shell 17:33
perlbot nopaste
perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: sial.org/pbot/<channel>
pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "Fix the `which` portability issue" (15 lines, 304B) at sial.org/pbot/13992 17:34
Limbic_Region Do you want me to update Makefile.PL or are you going to?
rafl Please do it.
Limbic_Region ok
I just need to know what to do if it isn't found in the PATH? 17:36
nevermind - I see an or die later on that should handle it 17:39
checking in now 17:41
hmm - this is taking a while
svnbot6 r7760 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: Prelude::JS::Proxy: Unbreak PIL2JS (forgot a +$var to :$var change). 17:42
Limbic_Region grrr - update failed
Limbic_Region tries again
rafl - your attempt was also b0rk 17:45
PATH delimiter is not portable either - : on *nix and ; on Win32
I have checked in something that should be portable
please verify it actually works (I don't have Parrot on this machine)
actually - I think it is still b0rk but not because of the parrot-config.imc thing 17:47
svnbot6 r7761 | Limbic_Region++ | Made `which parrot-config.imc` portable
Limbic_Region (-d $base and -e "$base/parrot-config.imc") isn't portable either 17:48
that needs fixing too
that whole section is non-portable
Limbic_Region goes to work
svnbot6 r7762 | Limbic_Region++ | Corrected many more portability issues with parrot-config.imc 17:52
Limbic_Region but still not all of them
eric256 "10 */6 * * * " in crontab should run every y6 hours at 10 after the hour right?
Limbic_Region the more I look the more problems there are - is it because no one is running Pugs AND Parrot on anything other than *nix? 17:53
eric256 - huh? 17:57
svnbot6 r7763 | Limbic_Region++ | Corrected copy/paste error in adding portability
Limbic_Region there are more unix only style paths in the PUGS_EMBED section but I am not sure why so I am not touching them WRT portability - anyone know what is going on? 18:00
eric256 wants to smack PerlMouse 18:10
webmind evening 18:54
r0nny_ re 19:04
eric256 yea automated feather smoke worked ;)
r0nny_ rafl: ping?
rafl: ping2? 19:16
rafl: rofl - i had read how xactly deb files are made - dey definitive dont fit sixpan well - since all it needs is a tarball (preferable bz2 compressed) 19:31
Limbic_Region eric256 - why do you want to smake PerlMouse? 19:32
eric256 smack...and i dunno. i think the wording he uses just grates on my nerves. 19:38
haven't you ever had someone you just didn't like and couldn't point to a reason. ;)
theorbtwo wonders who this perlmouse person is. 19:40
Limbic_Region eric256 - I had my own run in with PerlMouse
eric256 hehe. just someone on perlmonks.
Limbic_Region PerlMouse ended up being right but for the wrong reason 19:41
which kinda made the burn worse
fwiw - lazy evaluation also has the benefit of memory consumption
s/memory/efficient memory/
eric256 i don't mind being wrong. i don't mind being proven wrong, or argueing about right and wrong. with me it is more a tone issue, i need to focus on remembering that most people (including myself) arn't good at conveying emotions well in text.
Limbic_Region well, PerlMouse never made their case - japhy ended up doing it 19:42
eric256 a guy on pm awhile back ticked me off, and i decided to private message him about it, turned out english wasn't his first language and he had no idea that his tone held negative connotations.
Limbic_Region I had shown that while I was right, I wasn't as right as I could have been 19:43
fwiw - never under-estimate the cost of compiling regular expressions un-necessarily
theorbtwo Though for longer-running programs that tends to get amoritized out. 19:44
Oh. Unless I'm forgetting how often regexes get compiled, which is quite possible. 19:45
Limbic_Region theorbtwo - not when they are in a loop that IS the body of a long running program
eric256 is still waiting for theorbtwo to help cross reference tests. ;) i'm doing a couple test files a day but its time consuming ;) 19:46
Limbic_Region I followed the general rule - when there is a performance problem fix the algorithm and don't spend as much time on shaving individual ops
PerlJam Limbic_Region: you were just guilty of a lapse in critical thinking. You had tunnel vision. No big deal; it happens.
Limbic_Region in this case, the shaving outweighed changing the algorithm
and doing both outweighed either combined ;-) 19:47
theorbtwo Rules of thumb are useful things, but don't forget about the rest of your fingers!
r0nny_ rafl: ping agin 19:52
Limbic_Region so does anyone have any insight into the non-portability of the EMBED_PUGS stuff in Makefile.PL ? 19:53
I helped rafl out earlier with a specific issue and found that there was a whole lot of non-portable code
I started fixing it and then took a step back and wondered why it was that way (and stopped)
theorbtwo - fwiw, Env::Path was entirely unnecessary 19:54
20:51 buu is now known as o 20:52 o is now known as buu
meppl gute nacht 22:16
nothingmuch good night
meppl ;) 22:17
Juerd ja, goede nacht
meppl ;)
nothingmuch goes to play violent computer games 22:30
rafl r0nny_: pong 23:07
r0nny_ re 23:30
rafl: ping?
rafl r0nny_: pong, again. 23:32
r0nny_ rafl: took a look at the wiki ? 23:33
os - i see 23:34
i know a tar file could contain the same scripts 23:35
rafl The tools to extract/install debs and especially to extract meta data etc already exist.
It doesn't matter if it's a tarball or an ar achive. 23:36
r0nny_ its an ar archive of multiple tarballs
theorbtwo And a magic file.
However, like rafl said, it doesn't matter. 23:37
That's nice to know if you need to deal with things on a low level, or without the proper tools.
rafl A deb can contain arbitrary data, btw. Not only binary packages. You can also put a src package in with the according scripts to build it when installing.
theorbtwo Most of the time, you don't.
r0nny_ well - cpan is about source installs - i dont see the need of all the stuff deb brings in 23:38
rafl Most src packages on cpan only contain pure perl stuff. Let's say 80%. Why build packages that must be built to contain the same files afterwards?
theorbtwo It brings in a well-defined set of metadata, with years of careful evolution. 23:39
r0nny_ well if u just install source modules - just make it copy
but i think perl6 will have binary modules 23:40
where a build process is usefull
rafl It is, for 10% of all packages. Let's optimize for the default case and provide src pkg's for the rest. 23:41
theorbtwo I think this is a really bad place to try the 90/10 game. 23:42
r0nny_ i want to compile all perl modules i install
with specieal optinations just for my system
rafl r0nny_: Feel free to do. I don't want to.
r0nny_: Yeah.. --omg-optimized ;-)
theorbtwo r0nny_: I bet you use gentoo, too. 23:43
rafl theorbtwo: I didn't say we won't support src packages. I think it should be the default to provide binary packages for pure perl stuff and fall back to src packages when it's needed.
theorbtwo Compiling perl modules with special optimizitaions just for you system doesn't make any freaking sense.
r0nny_ rafl: i just want to ensure the tools dont get to debinaish, casue the debian from shouce stuff feels horrible
eh source 23:44
theorbtwo r0nny_: The second half of that sentance made no sense to me.
rafl r0nny_: Debian is optimized for binary packages. We only adopt the package format.
r0nny_ even the package fromat is optimized for binary ...
they put stuff like archs in
theorbtwo There are two completely different formats in deb -- one for binaries and one for source.
rafl r0nny_: It isn't. 23:45
theorbtwo Source ones aren't .deb at all -- they are .tar.gz, patch.gz, and .dsc.
rafl r0nny_: Architecure is just one kind of meta information in the package. Evaluating and using it is left to the package management.
OK, I'll go to bed now. Let's discuss tomorrow or in the wiki. Bye!
r0nny_ ok 23:46
n8 then 23:47
need to sleep. too
theorbtwo "nate then"?
r0nny_ night !
theorbtwo Damn l33t idiots... 23:48

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