'-Ofun: xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6'
Set by rafl_ on 5 November 2005.
buu Heh, that's silly. 00:00
?eval my @x = (0...);
evalbot_7917 pugs: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
buu =[
Stupid nonlazy pugz0r
mugwump ?eval my $x = [0...];
evalbot_7917 pugs: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
mugwump ?eval my $x = (0...);
evalbot_7917 pugs: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
mugwump :/
geoffb Lazy is implemented in the P5 backend, not in the Haskell backend (yet) 00:03
(Probably JS works too, knowing iblech)
buu P5 back end? 00:36
wolverian pugs -h, see the -C argument 00:37
SoHaN anyone alive to help me run perl scripts in windows xp? 06:33
obra SoHaN: you want #perlhelp or maybe #perl
SoHaN ok thanks :) 06:37
obra zkaia
mischan
svnbot6 r7918 | Darren_Duncan++ | r771@Darren-Duncans-Computer: darrenduncan | 2005-11-09 22:55:47 -0800 06:58
r7918 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : updated Rosetta-Incubator collection version to 6.0.0 from 0.0.1, following Pugs' example; fixed bugs in Locale::KeyedText SYNOPSIS; removed 'use 5.008001' and 'use utf8' pragmas from Makefile.PL
r7919 | Ovid++ | Added "Managing instance data" to cookbook. Needs much 07:34
r7919 | Ovid++ | more work (as does all of the cookbook)
gaal has anyone been working on "leave"? 08:50
svnbot6 r7920 | Darren_Duncan++ | r773@Darren-Duncans-Computer: darrenduncan | 2005-11-10 02:31:48 -0800 10:35
r7920 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : added new file /docs/Copying which outlines my copyright related intentions for Rosetta
cognominal_ ?eval rx |a| 11:59
evalbot_7920 {rule}
cognominal_ ?eval rx|a| 12:00
evalbot_7920 {rule}
cognominal_ ?eval ref rx|a|
evalbot_7920 ::Pugs::Internals::VRule
cognominal_ ?eval my $a. ref \$a
evalbot_7920 Error: unexpected "." expecting word character, "::", trait, "=", ".=", ":=", "::=", ";" or end of input
cognominal_ ?eval my $a; say ref \$a
evalbot_7920 Scalar bool::true
gaal ?eval given <a b> { when {.join eq "ab"} { say "closure smartmatch" } } 12:22
evalbot_7920 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&when"
gaal ?eval given <a b> { when -> {.join eq "ab"} { say "closure smartmatch" } }
evalbot_7920 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&when"
svnbot6 r7921 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props. 12:54
r7921 | iblech++ | * examples/cookbook/13classes-objects-and-ties/13-03managing-instance-data.p6:
r7921 | iblech++ | Fixed the declaration of &length --
r7921 | iblech++ | multi method length ($self: $new_length) {...}
r7921 | iblech++ | multi method length ($self:) {...return length...}
r7921 | iblech++ | # These declaration do *not* allow lvalue access, i.e.
r7921 | iblech++ | $foo.length = 42; # is invalid.
r7921 | iblech++ | Instead, you've to use Proxy.
wolverian what's wrong with 'has'? :) 12:59
Limbic_Region anyone know what's up with use.perl journals ??? 13:24
kolibrie I get connection refused 13:34
xinming maybe sys-admin happened to type reboot. :-) 13:40
Limbic_Region oh, I can connect - but the link to journals returns the main page and if you attempt to go to a specific users journal it is completely blank 13:48
oh wait, now I can't connect at all
xinming It seems that the system is down, for maintance? 13:50
Limbic_Region dunno 13:54
Limbic_Region doesn't know where pudge hangs out online
broquaint #perl on irc.perl.org, but he's not about atm. 14:00
Limbic_Region oh, well it looks like the site is undergoing changes 14:08
I have just now been able to get to the journals but not by normal paths
gaal could someone explain the deal with the Proxy, eg. in the last commit? Why isn't `has $.length` sufficient? 15:55
eric256 backlogs 15:56
it just says that the way they defined it you can't use it as an lvalue
i dunno why they defined it like that though. ;) 15:57
looks like the example has just been slowly mutated. probably adding some checks to it would make it make more sense. 15:58
do those cook book examples make directly to the original book? 15:59
gaal when is Proxy actually to be used at all?
eric256 when you want an lvalue that you can verify the value you are setting
int this case you might not want to allow negative lengths ;) or require length to be an Int and not a Float
wolverian eh 16:00
I thought: has $.foo where { ... }; worked
maybe I remember wrong
gaal Int $.length; can help with the int requirement, although last i heard that'd do a coercion and not raise an error. 16:01
eric256 where can impose restrictions i think. but what if the object held a string and changing the length should affect the string? the you would need a proxy
gaal but: okay, i think i get it. :-)
eric256 the whole lvalue vrs getter/setter holy war aside
gaal I in general like to leave holy wars aside. 16:02
wolverian there is no holy war. only a bad perl5 implementation.
eric256 TIMTOWTDI
wolverian there is definitly a war over lvalues, getters setters, and a single getter/setter of the same name. ;)
wolverian meh. not in perl6 and C#. 16:03
eric256 has heard it argued that objects should never have properties...though i never understood that.
wolverian both use lvalue properties.
eric256 using and having them doesn't mean there isn't a raging debate about weather they should have them or should use them. me though, the more options the better 16:04
wolverian anyone who uses .getFoo .setFoo in perl6 will be ridiculed. I hope. 16:05
it just doesn't make any sense when the language so strongly recommends .foo
svnbot6 r7922 | iblech++ | examples/cookbook/13classes-objects-and-ties/13-03managing-instance-data.p6:
r7922 | iblech++ | Clarified my XXX comment.
eric256 see wolverian you have the makings of a relegious warrior on the topic yet! 16:06
wolverian I've just been coding java lately (university course)
it might not make me religious, but it sure as hell makes me disgruntled.
gaal hey, what does Code<> and Code<$> mean? 16:07
Context: L<S04/"Smart matching">
code with arity zero and one respectively?
wolverian the <>s are probably signatures, although they should be Code\() or Code:() nowadays 16:08
I think.
gaal okay, asking the list.
wolverian gaal++ 16:09
svnbot6 r7923 | kane++ | r132@coke: kane | 2005-11-10 17:19:19 +0100 16:21
r7923 | kane++ | * document what .jib files are
r7924 | gaal++ | t/statements/given.t: add tests CODE matcherands
gaal (I'm looking into when CODE in .hs now) 16:22
eric256 sweet ;) 16:23
hmmm does that mean that $obj ~~ { .test; .whatever} automaticaly topicalizes the lhs for that block? an obfu given $obj { .test; .whatever } ;) 16:25
gaal :) 16:30
no, just calls code($_) automatically if the code wants it. 16:31
hey liz6
liz6 hey gaal
seen autrijus
jabbot liz6: autrijus was seen 22 hours 31 minutes 13 seconds ago
liz6 hmm...
eric256 that might be a record for autrijus
liz6 this could have been when autri was still in helsinki... 16:33
gaal he popped by to say hello from .tw
liz6 ah, ok
good to know autri is back...
back to $work I'm afraid... ;-) 16:34
eric256 $work ~~ 'evil' ;)
gaal App !Exp !(Maybe Exp) ![Exp] keeps confusing me
the maybe is the invocant, yes?
eric256 wonders if we could have > and 5 and << 10) 16:35
but i guess if (5 < $x < 10) is pretty cool
gaal is it ok to to call a regular sub with a NOthing invocant and one arg?
ok to import Pugs.Prim.Code into Pugs.Prim.Match or is that a layering violation? 16:41
eric256 stares at gaal for moment. lol 16:44
gaal eric256: it is perfectly natural behavior, i assure you, to procastinate about writing English by writing Haskell. 16:45
hey, is ghci still useful? 16:59
or rather: hey, hasn't ghci become useless?
wolverian why was autrijus in helsinki, btw? 17:04
and why didn't I meet him? :)
gaal connection. 17:07
i think
wolverian ah, okay. 17:10
eric256 and he doesn't like you!!! ;) j/k 17:11
gaal anyone know a quick way to find the topic? 17:20
$_ in .hs, not the channel topic :)
oh, silly me, readVar "$_"
sweet, sweet words: Looks like 2 tests of 49 passed unexpectedly 17:27
svnbot6 r7925 | gaal++ | * when CODE: 17:33
r7925 | gaal++ | * given { when &sub { ... } } works for 0- and 1-arity subs.
r7925 | gaal++ | * still TODO: when { bare closure }, as this requires parser tweaking.
r7925 | gaal++ | * tests.
eric256 did you just fix the smart match operator? 17:37
gaal partly. 17:38
working on another part.
$moose ~~ &somesub now works. this does *not* topicalize $moose at all, in fact it's ignored completely. 17:39
if somesub wants an arg, $_ will be it. 17:40
theorbtwo Blink... I thought topicalizing and setting $_ were the same thing.
?eval $_='foo'; 'bar' ~~ sub {say $_} 17:41
evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
theorbtwo Huh?
gaal it doesn't set $_. it calls somesub with the current $_, which in a given block, happens to be the other matcherand. 17:42
hmm! 17:43
geoffb oh, theorbtwo, dia turned out to work Just Fine for me . . . autrijus' suggestion of SQL::Translator looked cool, but output quite a mess. 17:44
Um, so, thanks theorbtwo . :-)
theorbtwo Welcome. 17:46
gaal ?eval sub x { say $^val } "moose" ~~ $x 17:47
evalbot_7925 Error: Undeclared variable: "$x"
gaal ?eval sub x { say $^val } "moose" ~~ &x
evalbot_7925 Error: Undeclared variable: "$^val"
gaal ?eval sub x ($val) { say $val } "moose" ~~ &x
evalbot_7925 perl6 bool::true
gaal ?eval $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val } "moose" ~~ &x 17:48
evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
gaal where's THAT coming from?
sub x ($val) { say $val } given 42 { when &x { say "again" } }
?eval sub x ($val) { say $val } given 42 { when &x { say "again" } } 17:49
evalbot_7925 42 again bool::true
gaal obviously readVar wasn't enough :/
eric256 why not? that last test was perfect 17:59
gaal yes, but the straight smartmatch, which ought also work, by right, does not
?eval $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val } "moose" ~~ &x 18:00
evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
eric256 ?eval $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val }; "moose" ~~ &x
evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
gaal and I'm puzzled about that VStr "perl6". Where'd it come from?
eric256 scratches his head. lol. that is interesting
wolverian ?eval say $_ 18:01
evalbot_7925 perl6 bool::true
wolverian there you go :)
eric256 lol.
dada ?eval say
evalbot_7925 bool::true
wolverian ?eval $_
evalbot_7925 \"perl6"
eric256 ?eval $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val }; given 42 { "moose" ~~ &x; }
evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
wolverian ?eval my $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val }; given 42 { "moose" ~~ &x; } 18:02
evalbot_7925 42 bool::true
eric256 ?eval sub x ($val) { say $val }; given 42 { say $_; "moose" ~~ &x; }
evalbot_7925 42 42 bool::true
eric256 can't find assignment of perl6 to $_ anywhere in source...odd
dada isn't it @ARGV[0] or some such? 18:03
err, $0 maybe
gaal ?eval $?PROGRAM_NAME
evalbot_7925 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?PROGRAM_NAME"
gaal ?eval $*PROGRAM_NAME
evalbot_7925 \undef
eric256 grep perl6 -r * turns up nothing looking like an assignment of perl6.
gaal yeah 18:04
eric256 its magic!
dada perl6 has a strong ego :-)
gaal anymoose, i'll ignore that for now and work on the bare closure thing :) 18:05
eric256 oddly say $_ on feather doesn't print perl6 18:06
could it actauly be evalbot's doing?
gaal not impossible! :)
but it's also the unmodifiability of this that's weird 18:07
?eval $_
evalbot_7925 \"perl6"
gaal aaaahhh it isn't the smart match that's failing at all is it? it's the $_ being read only
and me being thick.
xinming wonders if there is a way to list all attributes for an instance
eric256 yea. lol 18:08
gaal yes, $obj.perl
eric256 sorry thought you were on that track already
xinming oops. forgot the .perl method. :-)
gaal ?eval class Foo; has $.paws; Foo.new(paws=>4).perl
evalbot_7925 "Foo.new((\"paws\" => 4),);"
xinming loves perl more and more... :-P 18:09
cognominal_ ?eval my ($perl6, $needed, $possible); given $perl6 { when $needed { 'dynamic' } when $possible { 'static' } }
evalbot_7925 "dynamic"
cognominal_ :)
gaal ?eval { $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val } "moose" ~~ &x}
evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
eric256 ?eval { my $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val } "moose" ~~ &x} 18:10
evalbot_7925 42 bool::true
xinming Perl 6 rules the world.
eric256 no my so your still attatcking that weird $_ ;)
dada ?eval { $_ = 42; }
evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
gaal well, whatever, i'll just ignore this for now :) 18:11
xinming ?eval $_ is rw { $_ = 42 };
evalbot_7925 undef
gaal ruleCondPart can use some teasing apart
xinming ?eval { $_ is rw = 42 };
evalbot_7925 undef
eric256 anyone else try this localy? i can't reproduce except on eval bot
?eval eval { $_ } 18:12
evalbot_7925 "SubBlock(<anon>)"
cognominal_ hum, I wonder why it returned "dynamic"
gaal eric256: maybe look at the source for evalbot, i bet it does some sub { } wrapping a la mod_perl
xinming eric256: in interactive shell, It seems that $_ is rw by default.
dada ?eval my $x; $x;
evalbot_7925 \undef
dada ?eval my $x; ?$x;
evalbot_7925 bool::false
dada ?eval my $x, $y; $x ~~ $y; 18:13
evalbot_7925 Error: unexpected "," expecting word character, "::", trait, "=", ".=", ":=", "::=", ";" or end of input
dada ?eval my $x; my $y; $x ~~ $y;
evalbot_7925 bool::true
dada cognominal_: that's why, I suppose
eric256 gaal... i have been looking at evalbot but i can't find where it could be doing that, unless eval bot is running different source code than whats in the repository 18:16
cognominal it reutrned dynamic because all your vars are undef, so the first one matches ($perl = undef) ~~ ($dynamic = undef) == true 18:17
gaal hey, anyone know if there's a good reason why ruleGivenConstruct has 18:18
topic <- ruleCondPart
? that looks like just some sneaky convenience
because, well, the topic part in a given declaration is just an expression
cognominal_ dada: indeed 18:20
eric256 are you wondering why its not ruleExp (or whatever that is without looking at the source)
gaal or something like that, yes. i'm now adding blocks as an alternative to ruleCondPart, and am a little wary if it's used hackily by other thigns 18:21
eric256 are blocks acceptable in conditions? 18:22
if { } {} else {} seems wierd
gaal well, "moose" ~~ { .is_blue } uses ruleCondPart...
eric256 plus don't you want to add blocks to the when construct not given? maybe /me should look at source before speaking more though
ahh 18:23
gaal i do, i do
but i see ruleCondPart is used in all sorts of place.
places
maybe i'll add a rule just for when.
i think this oughta be made to work too though:
when -> ($x) { $x } {...} 18:24
confusing, yes :/
eric256 yes... trying to make $x =:= $_ ?
gaal oh, never mind the content of the block :) 18:25
i meant putting in a pointy for a closure for a when clause.
eric256 got confused and thought you did 18:47
given -> ($x) {$x} { ... }
which makes nooo sense. lol
yes pointy closurs on when blocks would be cool 18:48
gaal unfortunately just sticking either ruleBlock or ruleBlockLiteral to the alternatives in ruleCondPart doesn't make it work :-) 18:56
oh, the things that amuse me 19:08
the recent commit message showed up in the rss feed
but &sub changed to āŠ‚
hm, which my current font doesn't display. 19:09
that's a subset symbol.
something that amuses me less is that i'd forgoten some bread in the oven for 20 minutes at high heat :( 19:10
eric256 lol 19:11
gaal of course remembering the bread also reminded me i was hungry!
cognominal_ ?eval my (Num $i, Int $j); 19:23
evalbot_7925 Error: unexpected "N" expecting variable name, "undef" or ")"
cognominal_ ?eval my Num $i
evalbot_7925 undef
cognominal_ ?eval my Int $j
evalbot_7925 undef
cognominal_ ?eval my Num ( $i, $j); 19:24
evalbot_7925 undef
cognominal_ ?eval my int ( $i, $j);
evalbot_7925 undef
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; my @b = @a[1,2]; say @b 19:27
evalbot_7925 bool::true
cognominal_ ?eval say @a
evalbot_7925 Error: Undeclared variable: "@a" 19:28
cognominal_ hum, I guest I got splicing wrong
?eval my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; my @b = $a[1,2]; say @b 19:30
evalbot_7925 Error: Undeclared variable: "$a"
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; my @b = @a[[1,2]]; say @b 19:31
evalbot_7925 Error: unexpected "[" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, ";" or end of input
dada ?eval my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; my @b = @a[1,2]; @b 19:47
evalbot_7925 [undef, undef]
dada ?eval my @a = (33, 44, 55); my @b = @a[1,2]; @b
evalbot_7925 [44, 55]
dada yup 19:48
?eval my @a = [33, 44, 55]; my @b = @a[0]; @b
evalbot_7925 [33, 44, 55]
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33. 444. 66]; say length @a 20:42
evalbot_7925 Error: unexpected "[" expecting expression
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 444, 66]; say length @a
evalbot_7925 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&length"
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 444, 66]; my $a = @a; say $a 20:43
evalbot_7925 33 444 66 bool::true
obra seen autrijus
jabbot obra: autrijus was seen 1 days 2 hours 42 minutes 52 seconds ago
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 444, 66]; my $a = @a; say ref $a
evalbot_7925 Array bool::true
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; my @b = @a.[1,2]; say @b 20:44
evalbot_7925 bool::true
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; say @a[0]
evalbot_7925 334455 bool::true
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; say @a.[0] 20:45
evalbot_7925 334455 bool::true
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; @a.[0] 20:46
evalbot_7925 [33, 44, 55]
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = ( 33, 44, 55); @a.[0] 20:47
evalbot_7925 \33
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = ( 33, 44, 55); @a[0]
evalbot_7925 \33
Juerd Please use a real pugs :) 21:00
dada ?eval my @a = [33, 444, 66]; elems @a 21:11
evalbot_7925 1
dada cognominal_: elems, not length 21:12
cognominal_ yea, I badly need to reread the synopses... 21:13
azuroth or "+@a" I think 21:15
gaal @a in scalar context, in general. 21:31
wolverian gaal, numeric context.
gaal ?eval my @a = <a b c>; my $x = @a; $x 21:32
evalbot_7925 ["a", "b", "c"]
gaal ahem.
?eval my @a = <a b c>; my $x = scalar @a; $x # i wonder what this button does 21:33
evalbot_7925 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&scalar"
azuroth in string context it's like .join(" ") I think
gaal heh. i suppose a string context would concatenate?
heh again. 21:34
well, i'm off to read some more TaPL then zzzZZs. see ya & 21:35
azuroth night
r0nny_ re 21:55
fglock hi all 21:57
Juerd ? my @a = <a b c>; my $x = item @a; $x 22:09
eh
?eval my @a = <a b c>; my $x = item @a; $x
evalbot_7925 ["a", "b", "c"]
sili what's item 22:10
Juerd scalar context was renamed to item context, mostly to avoid confusion between scalar context and Scalar context.
eric256 ?eval my @a = <a b c>; @a;
evalbot_7925 ["a", "b", "c"]
eric256 why would there be confusion between scalar and Scalar ?? :) 22:11
and what does item context do to an array? not .pick which was my first guess
theorbtwo Refify, I assume.
eric256 ?eval my @a = <a b c>; scalar @a' 22:12
evalbot_7925 Error: unexpected "'" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, ":", ",", postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
eric256 ?eval my @a = <a b c>; scalar @a;
evalbot_7925 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&scalar"
eric256 ?eval my @a = <a b c>; ~@a;
evalbot_7925 "a b c"
Juerd eric256: Arrays and hashes return, in item context, a reference to themselves.
eric256: This is sometimes called "autoreferencing", which isn't actually very true. 22:13
eric256 are there words for ~, +, ? ...juerd yes that makes sense i think. just not dwim the first tiem, but from then on
Juerd There is a word for ?, not for ~ or +.
The word is "true". It's a bad, bad word, but english lacks a negation of "not".
eric256 true? instead of bool? 22:14
Juerd bool is already the name of a type.
theorbtwo In conversation, boolify, stringify, and nummify.
eric256 not is the negation of not.;) its not not cold outside
Juerd eric256: Dutch has the word "wel", which negates "niet" (not)
theorbtwo indeed.
eric256 hmmm. true "1" == true "0" 22:15
theorbtwo if (indeed $obj) {...}
Juerd theorbtwo: Has been suggested, iirc.
theorbtwo I'm not at all surprised.
eric256 lacks the brain power to even figure out what a negation of not would be
Juerd theorbtwo: I like it a lot better than "true", which I find misleading and looking like a sign of desperation.
theorbtwo BTW, somebody was looking for you on slashnet/#perlmonks earlier.
liz6 how abou "aye"
eric256 i am not suprised, i am indeed suprised, i am true surprised. hmmm
Juerd liz6: "aye" works well as a term, but not as a prefix thing, I think. Just like "true". 22:16
theorbtwo I don't see why it needs a stringy name at all.
...and I'd /much/ rather see true and false be names for the cannonical true and false values.
Juerd theorbtwo: Because it's a logical operator as well as a type caster.
theorbtwo: And we have high precedence and low precedence forms for those things.
eric256 yes if (?$test) {} reads easier than if (true $test)....maybe not easier. but harder to misunderstand 22:17
Juerd theorbtwo: The low precedence ones are words.
theorbtwo Sorry, they were looking for Juke, not Juerd -- I have a bad memory for names.
Hmm.
Juerd eric256: In boolean context, it is completely redundant and I would advise against using it.
eric256 Juerd can you provide an example of the difference between + and ? in this thinking. i'm finding all this hard to wrap my head around
liz6 how about "ack" ? 22:18
Juerd liz6: Tricky.
eric256 when is ? if not in bool context?
Juerd liz6: But my liking "indeed" much clouds judgement.
theorbtwo Thanks.
liz6 3 letters more! ;-)
cognominal_ what is the syntax of the arithmetic if?
eric256 indeed it is
Juerd You'll only be using this in the RHS of assignment anyway! :) 22:19
eric256 cognomials...you mean trinary? my $x = $test ?? 1 !! 2;
cognominal_ I thought it was $a ?? $b :: $c
theorbtwo eric256: my $knowntime = ?$time;
cognominal_ ok
eric256 :: became !!... which makes a certian kind of sense
cognominal_ thx eric256
Juerd cognominal_: No, :: is now !!, to better correspond to ? and !, which are "true" and "not"
cognominal_: And to make parsing stuff with classes much easier. 22:20
cognominal_: The RHS of ?? is what is done when the expression is true, the RHS of !! is what is done when it is not.
(Oh god, that actually argues for "true")
theorbtwo So it does...
liz6 wonders whether intelligent design is at work here... 22:21
Juerd Hahaha
Do note the lcfirst :) 22:22
liz6 ;-)
theorbtwo would never have thought he'd "yey" Dover, PA of all places. 22:23
Juerd "Om de rest van de updates te installeren, moet u LiveUpdate nogmaals uitvoeren."
WTF?
Prutsers. 22:24
theorbtwo wonders if babelfish does Dutch.
Juerd Het zij ze vergeven omdat ik vandaag bij Symantec heerlijke jus d'orange heb gekregen, maar anders was ik nu toch wel zo vreselijk verontwaardigd!
theorbtwo (Yes.)
Juerd wonders if Babelfish makes sense of this :) 22:26
theorbtwo More or less, except for "Prusters".
And jus d'orange, which I assume is actually french.
Juerd Perhaps because it's prutsers, not prusters.
theorbtwo They them forgive because I have today got d'orange at Symantec delicious gravy, but I had been differently incensed now nevertheless this way terribly! 22:27
Juerd It's French, yes. It means: orange juice.
liz6 jus d'orange => OJ
Juerd That translation's funny.
theorbtwo Doesn't get either, Juerd. 22:28
Juerd can't even come up with a correct translation of prutser :)
liz6? :)
liz6 yes?
Juerd Do you happen to know a translation for prutser? 22:29
liz6 ah,
tinkerer according to the dictionary 22:30
Juerd Oh, that's a good one.
liz6 but that doesn't convey the negative connotations, I think...
Juerd Oh, then I've always read it wrong :)
3: an unskilled person who tries to fix or mend [syn: {tinkerer}]
That does sound negative
Though it doesn't necessarily have to do with fixing or mending. Here, it's about creating. 22:31
liz6 tinkering charlatans?
Juerd Hehe
In this case, yea :)
Esp. considering the bar with free drinks :) 22:32
eric256 why does Symantec have delicious gravy? 22:33
Juerd No, orange juice
But the Dutch word "jus" (which is actually the French word "jus") doesn't quite mean the same as the French word "jus". 22:34
If that makes any sense at all.
"jus" in Dutch means gravy, except in French or drink context, then it means juice :)
eric256 sure. lol. jus translated to gravy then? but was meant in the frenche joice way?
lol 22:35
eric256 still has no idea what the translation meant
you were mad at them, but then you got free orange juice so now you aren't as mad?
Juerd Sort of :) 22:36
liz6 except he got the OJ before he got mad, right?
Juerd Yes 22:37
So I actually didn't get mad :)
Juerd so feels sorry for eric256's brain right now :)
Eh, s/so feels/{ $/.split.reverse.cat }/ 22:38
Make that s/cat/join/
theorbtwo Does join with no non-invocant parameter join with ' '?
Juerd Yes. 22:39
Or, well, it should.
theorbtwo nods.
Juerd I'm not entirely sure it's blessed.
If split defaults to ' ', then join should too.
theorbtwo nods.
Though split doesn't exactly default to ' ', more like rx:p5/\s+/. 22:40
Juerd That is irrelevant.
We can't join on a regex meaningfully :) 22:41
See also the p6l thread "lists in string context"
theorbtwo nodsnods.
eric256 split defaults to \s+ magic, join defailts to '' not ' ' 22:42
?eval "hello".split.join
evalbot_7925 "hello"
eric256 ?eval "hello world".split.join
evalbot_7925 "helloworld"
Juerd Then join is wrong. 22:43
eric256 hehehe. i had that exact conversation with someone else the other day. ;) /me agrees
~@a and @a.join should come out the same. relativly
Juerd Indeed.
And cat should be &join.assuming(sep => '') 22:44
eric256 considers making a bot to track eachs days most popular word. ;)
theorbtwo suspects "the" and "and" will be front-runners.
eric256 theorbtwo what a buz killer ;)
Juerd There was a bot in one of Dutch channels I was in that would keep such statistics per user. 22:45
It turned out that the arrogant people indeed did use "ik" (I) much more often than others :)
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = <a b>; my $rx = rx| @a|; say "a" ~~ $rx
evalbot_7925 *** Cannot parse PGE: :w:: @a *** Error: end of file bool::true
Juerd was one of them, unfortunately.
theorbtwo lols at Juerd. 22:46
Juerd Oh, 8 minutes until food supply closes
brb
cognominal_ pugs> my @a = <a b>; my $rx = rx| @a|; say "a" ~~ $rx 22:47
PackFile_unpack: Bytecode not valid for this interpreter: fingerprint mismatch
Parrot VM: Can't unpack packfile /usr/lib/parrot/runtime/library/PGE.pbc.
problem on feather apparently 22:48
eric256 yea
cognominal_ pugs> my @a = <a b>; my $rx = rx| @a|;
oops
eric256 rafl broke it and i havn't seen him lately
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = <a b>; my $rx = rx| @a|;
evalbot_7925 \{rule}
cognominal_ how come the bot behaves differently? 22:49
rafl eric256: Here I am.
eric256 differently than what? than feather? because whoever runs the bot runs there own build of pugs for some reason.
cognominal_ ok
eric256 rafl....PGE linkage/whatever borked 22:50
rafl eric256: Yes. I don't know why, though. Will investigate tomorrow.
eric256 evil debian packages!! ;)
rafl Eval broken parrot portability! 22:51
theorbtwo rafl: When parrot breaks compatability, under normal debianish rules, you should make a parrot(++$n) package. 22:52
I think...
And make them conflict if they cannot be done asside each-other.
OTOH, I think Parrot is sufficently betaish to ignore that and go with the "you get to keep both pieces" policy. 22:53
rafl theorbtwo: Err. I'll simply fix parrot and update the package.
theorbtwo: Who to conflicting parrot packages?
theorbtwo Umm? 22:56
Juerd re
eric256 that made as much sense as juerds rumbling about orange juice
$last.subst("rumbling", "rambling"); 22:57
Juerd There and back in 10 minutes.
Wow.
Hm, does English lack positive words altogether? 22:58
"back", the direction, does it have an opposite?
I hope you like RPN or yodaspeak.
rafl forward?
eric256 forward? ;)
Juerd Hm, I guess :) 22:59
Though you wouldn't use that to describe a route?
eric256 or front if you mean a side. indeed, some positive words have we.
if you are on a route you would be assumed to be going forward
you might say "continue down that street" 23:00
Juerd "forward" feels like the translation of "vooruit", not exactly that of "heen"
eric256 considers says "bless you" to juerd 23:01
Juerd It's Dutch, not a scandinavian language.
liz6 "there and back"
Juerd liz6: I started with that, but "there" doesn't quite cover uses of "heen" in Dutch. "heenreis"... 23:02
liz6 I think it does.
Juerd "terugreis" can be translated using "back"
liz6 hmmm... wonder what the Dutch translation of "The Hobbit" was...
Juerd Hehe :)
Some things should be left untranslated :) 23:03
And can be.
eric256 hmmm i wonder if you could teach a language by reading a book, then slowly translating portions of sentences and reread...repeat until entire book is in new language..... ;)
Odin-LAP Juerd: "Should"?
Juerd Odin-LAP: Your sentence incomplete. 23:04
Odin-LAP Juerd: Dunno. Tolkien said he liked the Icelandic translation better than the original texts. ;)
(Of the Lord of the Rings, though, not the Hobbit...)
eric256: There is a method based on that...
Juerd Original authors shouldn't be taken too seriously. 23:05
Odin-LAP eric256: Should be based on relatively easier texts, though.
Juerd (\lwall, perhaps)
Odin-LAP Says who?
Juerd Does your IRC client not show that?
Odin-LAP Take nothing seriously. Turn everything into a joke. 23:06
Juerd I guess that makes judging what is said rather than who says it easier, but it completely destroys the social aspect.
Odin-LAP I'd suggest that the context is more important than the person. 23:07
Juerd If you'd suggest that, I'd agree.
theorbtwo English lacks the concept of a fully positive answer to a negitive question.
Or, rather, a short way of saying "I reject the premise of this question".
"Did you stop having sex with little children?" 23:08
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: What language has that?
Juerd Well, it has "Yes, it does!"
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: "I never did."
theorbtwo Odin: Say that in one word.
Juerd But that doesn't quite count, because the "it does" part holds the actual boolean value, not the "yes".
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Why should I have to? Because you're obsessed with byte counts? :>
Juerd Odin-LAP: Think of a positive for "not" where "not" is the negative form.
That can be used in the same way: "I will not do that" 23:09
"I will <...> do that"
Odin-LAP Juerd: I *know* what you're talking about. I just don't think it's actually needed.
Juerd Odin-LAP: It's not needed. Otherwise English would have died already.
But it does kind of suck when in a programming language based on English, you need a negation of "not".
Odin-LAP That's like arguing chinese is useless, because they often have to combine words to transmit even simple ideas.
That, however, is an entirely different matter. :p 23:10
Juerd No, stating that a language lacks a certain feature is not at all like arguing that a language is useless.
liz6 how about "way"
theorbtwo "way"?
liz6 (as opposed to "no way"
Juerd my $is_cool = way $cool; 23:11
Could work.
theorbtwo my $has_time = way $time?
Juerd waaaay time!
liz6 I was thinking Wayne's World here...
Odin-LAP Juerd: Stating that a language's prominent feature is "unworkable", which was my implication, *is*. :)
liz6 they always had "way" as the negation of "no way"
theorbtwo "no way" isn't really the right concept that we're trying to negate, though. 23:12
Anyway, they often used "yes way", IIRC.
Odin-LAP That explanation might be digging a bit to deep into pop culture?
liz6 perhaps...
Juerd liz6: Again lack of negative for "no", so they just leave it out :)
Odin-LAP s/to/too/; # AGH!
Juerd liz6: We also do not have a good negative for "geen", but we can at least use an article (een) or number (een, comfortably) to make up for that :) 23:13
theorbtwo geen == kein?
Juerd theorbtwo: German for "geen" is "kein", indeed.
theorbtwo English is doing the same thing there, but many words don't need an article in many positions. 23:14
Juerd "no way", "a way" doesn't feel like a negation pair
While "geen weg", "een weg" does. But this is probably only because English isn't my native language. 23:15
(Translating "no way" literally makes little sense, though :))
theorbtwo Is there a way to get what we want from here? No, there is no way.
Odin-LAP That 'no' isn't the same as the word 'no' you use to answer a question.
:p
Juerd Odin-LAP: Exactly^WIndeed. 23:16
theorbtwo German has actual different words for it -- kein and nein. (I suspect Dutch does too.)
Juerd theorbtwo: Yes: geen and nee ("neen" too)
Odin-LAP Icelandic, too.
:)
rafl theorbtwo: Oh, you're german? Will you be at the next german perl workshop? :-)
theorbtwo No, I'm American. I took German in high school. (And didn't do very well.) 23:17
I also lived in Germany for two years.
Juerd Icelandic has all the neat features that Dutch and German have, because it hasn't devolved into shit, like English has.
theorbtwo likes English.
Odin-LAP English is a nice language.
theorbtwo I also note that we're talking English here, and not German, Dutch, Icelandic, or Chinese.
Juerd theorbtwo: You just explained why. You're American :) 23:18
Odin-LAP Sollen wir Deutsch sprechen, dann?
theorbtwo English is an /amazingly/ successful language.
Bissen.
Juerd theorbtwo: Maybe you're not talking about those other languages (though I'd swear you were), but we certainly are!
SamB Juerd: maybe you are confused with the related tongue known as "gibberish"
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Ja, aber warum?
theorbtwo Odin: Wait... I think I answered that incorrectly, based on a bad guess of "Sollen". 23:19
Juerd Deutsch saugt! # und woerdliche uebersetzungen auch!
theorbtwo We may be talking /about/ Germanic languages, but we're doing it /in/ English.
Odin-LAP Anyhow. English is a nice language. It has next to no grammar, a smattering of basic words, and a vocabulary that no single species can master. *grin*
Actually, English *is* a germanic language. 23:20
Juerd theorbtwo: My brane inserted "is" there.
buu Juerd: You have a 'brane' ?
Juerd buu: In Perl channels, yes.
buu This is fascinating. Please tell more.
Juerd It's slang.
For an almost equally pronounced word. 23:21
liz6 wonders whether eliza is pretending to be buu
Juerd Hehe.
What makes you say this is fascinating, Please tell more?
... :)
theorbtwo I hear often that English is a horrible languge, and I can believe it. Clearly, however, it got something right, as it's hugely popular.
Juerd theorbtwo: Oh, it does. 23:22
theorbtwo: In the Microsoft way.
theorbtwo When Russians send packages to the Arab-speaking world, what do they label the boxes in?
Juerd theorbtwo: English or French, usually.
Though I've received packages labelled in only Russian. They take at least a week longer. 23:23
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: It's nothing to do with the language as such.
theorbtwo: It's pure politics.
Same reason as French dominated in Europe a while back.
Juerd Odin-LAP: That's the long version of "In the Microsoft way." :)
Odin-LAP (Why do you think it's "lingua france" and not "english language"? ;)
BAH!
s/france/franca/
Juerd Which in turn is latin... 23:24
Which used to be the lingua franca.
I
Odin-LAP Juerd: Indeed. Which is a further, humourous twist.
Juerd I guess it's hard to start a trend and name it yourself.
theorbtwo Odin: I think linguistics has /something/ to do with it. /Largely/ politics, sure. 23:25
Juerd theorbtwo: It's not excedingly hard and computers were first produced by americans, using ASCII. That too has helped English spread much.
theorbtwo Another reason is that alphebetically, it's least-common-denominator of modern latin-derived langauges, of which there are a lot. 23:26
Juerd I think that largely has to do with ASCII. 23:28
Odin-LAP The only reason for that is that they actually dropped letters out when printing arrived.
Moreover, several loanwords are *properly* typeset with accents, which has receded lately, in substantial part due to ASCII.
('th' used to have a seperate letter in English, just like in Icelandic.) 23:29
And if you want to get started on orthography ... :>
theorbtwo I'm quite glad of the phenominom, whatever the causes. 23:30
...and I don't see it changing any time soon, either. 23:31
English, for example, isn't beginning to take on lots of loan-words from any purticular source.
Juerd I consider it likely than in a few hundred years, Chinese, or some simplified derivative, will be the lingua franca. 23:32
theorbtwo: No, it takes them from any language that has roughly the same alphabet. I'm not sure if this is a good thing.
theorbtwo I think it probably is. 23:33
If English were taking on a lot of Chinese loan-words, I'd say that'd be a pretty clear sign that Chinese was winning.
Odin-LAP *blink*
Juerd theorbtwo: Eh. 23:34
Odin-LAP You *do* realise that approximately half the modern english vocabulary is derived from latin, directly or indirectly?
Juerd Odin-LAP: And that in turn from Greek.
Which is all to often ignored.
theorbtwo Yes, Odin. If it were taking them on /now/, it'd be a different matter.
Odin-LAP Juerd: In some cases, yes. Not as many as most assume.
theorbtwo But I see lots of English in Chinese, and other languages. In non-latin languages, it's even more noticable, because they stick out like sore thumbs. 23:35
Juerd Odin-LAP: I was taught there was a greek language that existed before what we know as Ancient Greek, that was mostly the basis for Latin.
Odin-LAP Juerd: Huh. I see. 23:36
theorbtwo When English took on a load of outside words, it was certianly /not/ the lingua-franca.
Juerd theorbtwo: Which is this clearly defined period in which English took on a load of outside words? 23:37
theorbtwo: The language has always done that (if a language can actively do anything, that is)
theorbtwo: It takes from whatever is current at the moment of taking. Which is no surprise, of course. 23:38
theorbtwo If Chinese were to become the linga franca, it'd take those external words and make them Chinese, as English does.
Juerd I wouldn't
I'm one of the people who think the English influence for non-English languages is already too broad. 23:39
The French are very extreme in this idea, and tend to reject any use of English.
theorbtwo Yes, they do.
Juerd I'm more flexible, but I do think existing Dutch words should be used when there are any.
theorbtwo As a concequence, you don't see many non-french people speaking french.
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: O_o
Juerd theorbtwo: Huh?
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Are you really that ignorant, or..? 23:40
theorbtwo Possibly I am.
Juerd theorbtwo: Can I have a copy of that encyclopaedia? :)
theorbtwo Ahh, but Encyclopedia now has the status of a full English word.
Odin-LAP French is believed to be the second most widespread second language after English.
It's a loanword. 23:41
theorbtwo No it's not.
Odin-LAP Yes, it is.
theorbtwo It /was/ a loanword.
Odin-LAP Doesn't matter how long it's been used.
theorbtwo No, it doesn't.
Odin-LAP A loanword is still a loanword a thousand years later.
Juerd theorbtwo: Is that American culture, to loan something and never return it, and then call it yours? :)
And call it yours *because* you never stopped using it? :)
Odin-LAP (Although English doesn't *have* those, since it's not that old, I speak languages that do. :) 23:42
Juerd Odin-LAP: Like Icelandic? :)
Odin-LAP Yes.
Like Icelandic.
Juerd Why doesn't this surprise me... :)
theorbtwo It's an English word. Schoolchildren aren't taught that it's a Latin word that they can use in conversation anyway.
Juerd theorbtwo: That's to prevent brane overload. 23:43
theorbtwo: Not because it's true.
Odin-LAP (Really. They can pretty much time the appearance of certain christianity-related words; that's maybe 900 years back, maybe more.)
theorbtwo Ah, but it is true.
Juerd Teaching is an art of lying in a way that people will not kill you for.
theorbtwo What is it about the word that makes it anything but English?
Odin-LAP Oh, but if you're hung on "encyclopedia", let me get at an even better example.
"Knife" is not an english word. 23:44
It's a loanword.
*manic-grin*
theorbtwo Similarly, Beef is a perfectly valid English word, even though it's based on the French, and appeared around the time of the Norman invasion.
Odin-LAP (So are "husband", "wife", "window", and several other common words.)
theorbtwo No, those are English words. 23:45
We stole them, made them our own.
Odin-LAP In the sense that english uses them, yes.
Juerd Does this make regexes Perl?
theorbtwo Yes. 23:46
Juerd Does it make animals cows?
theorbtwo No.
eric256 did any language realy just randomly make up its own words? i've always been of the understanding that every langauge known today evolved from some other language
Juerd Okay. Keep feeding this new neural net.
theorbtwo I am me, and not the food I have been eating for the past 25 years.
Juerd theorbtwo: The food is digested and no longer in your body. 23:47
eric256 wonders if now is the time to shout out "sure you are pig!"
Odin-LAP eric256: Yes, but there's a difference between that and nicking words from other languages. Not to say that it's wrong, in any sense, but linguistically quite distinct.
Juerd Otherwise you'd be a hell of a lot heavier.
Now, English actually did get a lot heavier.
Khisanth some of it might be though
Juerd The words are still there. Usually in their original forms too.
theorbtwo More or less.
ResumƩ kept it's terminal accent, but the plural is ResumƩs, not RƩsumƩs as it would be in French. 23:48
(Please, correct me if my French is wrong.)
Juerd I haven't seen it spelled with any accent in English yet. 23:49
But the accent on the first e is there in French in both the singular and the plural 23:50
What is your point?
And even if you destroy someone else's property, it doesn't become yours.
theorbtwo My point is that I think most English-speakers don't think they have inserted a French word into the middle of their sentance, but instead have used a slightly abnormal English word.
Juerd Even if you mutate another language's word, it doesn't become English. 23:51
eric256 Odin-LAP...realy? whats the difference between evolving the use of existing words, and evolving the user of existing words? ;)
theorbtwo It's not like the French can't have it too.
Juerd theorbtwo: That failure of "most English-speakers" doesn't change facts.
theorbtwo We made a copy. This is our copy, they still have theirs.
I fail to see where facts enter this discussion. 23:52
Juerd
.oO( copy, break, spread, sell, profit! )
s/sell/support/ ;)
theorbtwo BTW, where do you get the "knife" example from? 23:53
Juerd TBH, "knife" was in Old English
theorbtwo www.m-w.com/dictionary/Knife
Juerd Which is derived from the same branch of Germanic languages that Icelandic stems from.
eric256 hey. americans are muts, why shouldn't our language be too! 23:54
Juerd eric256: Oh, it can be nuts.
I don't mind.
theorbtwo The word may be in other languages as well as English, but it is beyond doubt an English word.
Odin-LAP eric256: The distinction is quite simple. The predecessor language usually has earlier, older versions of words. If it does not - the word is a loanword - then that's nice to know, since it means you don't have to go hunting for the word's prior version. That's all. It's just a linguistic convenience.
eric256 thinks linguist are crazy...but then he thinks most people are crazy, 23:55
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Merriam-Webster actually supports my point. :>
theorbtwo How do you figure? 23:56
Juerd "Etymology" followed by ancient languages is a clear sign...
theorbtwo Yes. That a long time ago, somebody took a copy from it out of some other language, and since it's become a perfectly normal English word. 23:57
Juerd No offense, but English itself is a loanword ;)
theorbtwo I think I understand now.
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: You're misunderstanding what the whole question is about.
eric256 every ones always picking on us poor english folk.
Juerd theorbtwo: There is no negative connotation with "loanword". 23:58
theorbtwo: There's nothing to be offended about.
(over?)
Odin-LAP A word's being a loanword doesn't mean it's less valid.
eric256 Juerd easy for you to say, its not your language they are picking on!!
lol
Odin-LAP (Unless you're a crazed purist, which in the case of English would be sheer insanity.)
theorbtwo In America we have a saying, or at least I do -- "Everybody's got to be from somewhere".
SamB Juerd: maybe you don't know what etymology means
Juerd eric256: In a way, it is too.
SamB: I find that highly unlikely. 23:59
Maybe you don't know me very well :)
eric256 i like when people ask me where i'm from. i tell them i'm a mutt. little oh this little oh that. probably not more than 20% of any one thing ;)
theorbtwo I'm an American. This is far more important then where my ancestors were from before they were American -- Russian, German, Scotch, Irish, Sweedish, a little of this, a little of that.
SamB Juerd: it does not mean "what language a word is from"
Juerd theorbtwo: That's because of some unfortunate history with "native" americans.

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