Summer of Perl | 6.2.12 released! | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org
Set by ingy on 4 July 2006.
nothingmuch ponders tagging www.flickr.com/photos/clkao/185926028/ as "may offend" 00:04
awesome! www.flickr.com/photos/clkao/185928599/
00:13 Khisanth joined
svnbot6 r11386 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed infinite loop parsing invalid expression 00:14
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TimToady perl5/Sub-Multi/inc seems to be both under svn and clobbered by "perl Makefile.PL". 00:19
anybody know what's going on there?
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obra TimToady: if there's a .author directory in inc/ it's blown away at runtime 00:19
likely the .author inside shouldn't be versioned
audreyt fixed.
dinner &
TimToady thanks
btw, still blowing up on my smokes after upgrade to Task::Smokes 00:20
svnbot6 r11387 | audreyt++ | * TimToady noted Sub::Multi clobberness.
TimToady next step is blow the whole thing away and re svn up I guess... 00:21
actually, now that I look at it, it's pulling in files from 5.8.6! That can't be right... 00:24
sanug ping pmichaud 00:29
svnbot6 r11388 | fglock++ | v6 - clear other warnings when reporting syntax errors 00:35
TimToady It took me half an hour to upgrade Test::Smoke to 5.8.8. Gah...we've got to do better on this... 00:54
my cpanp was stuck in 5.8.6 land for some reason, so I had to learn cpan shell syntax all over again. 00:55
we need to translate these things to Perl 6 so we can translate them to JavaScript and run 'em under Firefox. :) 00:56
we just need a refactoring translator that's smart enough to remove stupid shell prompts and replace them with nice buttons. :) 00:59
maybe 6PAN should just be an svn repostory. :) 01:00
s/st/sit/
TreyHarris TimToady: I feel your pain. I've been fighting for the past several hours because too many dist packagers don't make allowances for the possibility that I might want to install somewhere other than /usr or /usr/local 01:01
(or wherever perl itself is installed)
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TreyHarris so where does the most up to date S29 draft live now? 01:07
is it docs/Perl6/Spec/Functions.pod in the repository? 01:09
TimToady *nod* 01:11
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bennymack maybe 6PAN should jusit be an svn repostory. :) 01:18
huuh?
TreyHarris s/sit/st/; s:2nd/st/sit/; 01:20
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xdg FYI: Strawberry Perl Alpha 1 for Win32 is available at vanillaperl.com. It should make experiments with v6.pm even easier than Vanilla Perl. 01:35
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xdg Also Perl::Dist::Builder is up on CPAN. While hacky and poorly documented, it can be used to create custom variations with other bundled modules. 01:36
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ajs_home TreyHarris: latest S29 is now docs/Perl6/Spec/Functions.pod in pugs, yes. 03:49
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TreyHarris ajs_home: thanks. so what were you thinking about for system (run, whatever) as far as its return behavior? that success will be booleanized true is a given. but are you thinking it will return an int with a different boolean role, or an object you can call into for exit status, signal, maybe output & error, etc.? 04:24
ajs_home It will almost certainly return a Conc::Proc::Status object, just like wait 04:25
Getting that to do the right thing in boolean context should be trivial enough 04:26
TreyHarris a Conc::Proc::Status will numify to the old wait return value, I assume 04:29
ajs_home I specifically wrote wait to try to match both the Perl 5 programmer's expectations and S17, so it should serve as a good model for anything that needs to think about an external process's status.
TreyHarris: Correct
That's stated in the section for wait, but in an unfortunately obscure way. I'll fix that. 04:30
TreyHarris is there a draft S17 somewhere?
ajs_home There is... 04:32
I'm hard pressed to recall where, and I have the bookmark at work
audreyt docs/Perl6/Spec/Concurrency.pod
ajs_home heh, oh right :)
svnbot6 r11389 | ajs++ | Make it clear that wait needs a numifyable return value 04:33
TreyHarris interesting. what would happen under "Co-Routines" in Concurrency.pod if you wrote: "for all(@list) -> $x { produce $x }" ? 04:40
audreyt evaluation order of junctions and hyperops are undefined. 04:41
(intentionally)
TreyHarris audreyt: right, but I thought C<for all(@list)> would ordinarily cause parallel execution. would the presence of a produce inside suppress that behavior, and just cause the order to no longer be defined? 04:43
audreyt actually, it _can_ cause parallel execution
but the semantic is the same as if it's randomized and run separately sequentually. 04:44
ajs_home It might do the same thing in the general sense as "for(@foo) { fork || return }", which is probably not what you wanted. 04:45
Best to combine straighforward looping with produce in order to be sure of the results. 04:46
A warning might be in order....
TreyHarris the same issue would present with produce as return 04:47
ajs_home Yes, I was simplifying for demonstration purposes.
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ajs_home The fact that produce sets up a co-routine is beside the point I think... combining it with process creation is probably more volatile than you wanted to deal with in a sane world. 04:48
This is all off the top of my head, having only skimmed the co-routine docs. 04:49
TreyHarris yes, but parallelization has always been more the domain of ninjas than pirates. i still hold out hope that P6 can bring it to pirates too 04:50
dduncan seen obra 04:53
jabbot dduncan: obra was seen 4 hours 33 minutes 20 seconds ago
dduncan for those of you going to OSCON 2006, for whatever reason, I will now probably be joining you ... following obra's suggestion yesterday, I have just registered for the hallway track, aka exhibit hall only 04:54
so I look forward to meeting you in person and/or working together at whatever available opportunities
the main hurdles I have yet to overcome is to find 1-3 people to share a lodging with, and getting things in order at home so my $job can get along without me for that time 04:56
if you, or anyone you know is looking for room-mates, please let me know
and yes, I saw the terse room-sharing wiki
but wanted to ask closer to the community first
s/looking for/is willing to accommodate more/ 04:57
Red Lion is preferred as it is near by, but I can take other options
clkao smokes -BPerl5
audreyt ooh! 04:58
clkao test::harness hates everything
audreyt dduncan++ # prospect of joining the OSCONathon
dduncan audreyt, I seem to recall you specifically asked if I was going ... 04:59
I don't suppose you have space in your hotel room that I could share?
sanug audreyt: Need help with properties in svn - can you help?
audreyt dduncan: sadly not.
sanug: sure
sanug I have read about them in a book just now 05:00
I would like to setup the html and jpg files in perl6_compilation properly
Could you review my current properties and explain what I need to do so I will remember in the future
dduncan as far as dates ... I figured that if I arrived late monday and left early saturday, that should fit all the important stuff in for tues-fri 05:01
sanug Also could you send me you defaults as you set them up in your svn config file
dduncan bus travel will take about 11-12 hours each way from home
sanug 2nd you s/you/your/
dduncan unless I can find a carpool
but that's not a concern to carry on here 05:02
sanug audreyt: Also please explain what you do to review the properties and what you look for...
dduncan anyway, if someone knows of a space to stay, let me know ... meanwhile, I'll ask those few on the roomsharing wiki 05:03
audreyt sanug: I use the "pl" command
svk pl *
(same as svn I believe)
to list props
then I see you have both mime-type and svn:mime-type
sanug Do you like svk better than svn?
audreyt the mime-type one is bogus
well, seeing I'm svk's #2 committer... 05:04
...yes :)
sanug What is best method to acquire svk?
audreyt svk.elixus.org has links to .pkg
sanug I use OS X 10.4
dduncan as do I
in my experience, the way of getting the svk package was a bit indirect ... 05:05
I'm not sure a current one is linked on the svk homepage ... will look ...
sanug Assume that clkao herein is Chia-Liang Kao
svnbot6 r11390 | audreyt++ | * remove the mime-type prop 05:07
dduncan sanug, the OS X packages I have been using of svk were by Michael Brouwer [email@hidden.address] 05:08
not sure if that specifically was linked on the svk homepage, or whether I found it by Google or an IRC link
clkao just click download and there's the same macosx package on openfoundry 05:09
why get rid of the mietypes 05:10
?
audreyt I'm seeing application/octet-stream for some .jpg files
changing it
clkao: sanug had it as mime-type and also svn:mime-type
so I removed the first variant
clkao sodes
audreyt sanug: this is what I'm doing:
svk ps svn:mime-type image/jpeg *.jpg
sanug Please say how incorrect modes were detected and removed
audreyt I detect it with 05:11
svk pg svn:mime-type *.jpg
(again, should be same with svn)
sanug Now the html files are they setup properly
dduncan clkao, yes, the downloads section seems to have it 05:12
sanug They were not opening properly in browser
svnbot6 r11391 | audreyt++ | * change jpg files to image/jpeg
dduncan I just recall going somewhere else once ... maybe it was for a special version for 10.3
no matter
audreyt sanug: they look correct.
sanug We setup svn when I downloaded pugs - does switch to svk require any addition? 05:14
audreyt yes. it involves 05:19
mv pugs pugs-old-svn
svk co svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
lambdabot Title: "Revision 11391: /"
audreyt hit <enter> multiple times
and then wait a long, long time.
preferably do it before a meal, or before sleep 05:20
but, you can full revision history of Pugs, and so can find any file's content in any timepoint, even without network.
well, unless that timepoint is in the future, in which case you need an additional "sleep" command and then "svk pull". 05:21
after you get the checkout, "svk ci" is the same; instead of "svn up" you say "svk pull"
otherwise it's identical. except suddenly it feels much faster.
sanug So this co does a mirror the first time 05:22
audreyt aye.
sanug I see that the html files - some of them have extra carriage returns in the properties:
Properties on 'perl6_compilation/Perl_6_Compilation_Overview.html': 05:23
PHEME.html : text/html; charset=UTF-8
svn:mime-type : text/html; charset=UTF-8
Properties on 'perl6_compilation/Perl_6_on_Haskell_is_Pugs.html':
PHEME.html : text/html; charset=UTF-8
svn:mime-type : text/html; charset=UTF-8
the second file has PHEME.html property even though it is a Perl_6_on_Haskell_is_Pugs.html'
Perhaps this is in just my version?
ivanfrey Why is ranlib not working any more. 05:24
sanug There also seems to be 2 carriage returns after that propert and the correct svn:mime-type
audreyt that is svn bug 05:25
I mean, feature.
svk doesn't display 2 carriage returns
sanug Do you see PHEME.html as property?
audreyt yes and I've just pd'ed it
svk pd PHEME.html *html 05:26
sanug Good all gone...
svnbot6 r11392 | audreyt++ | * remove PHEME.html property
sanug Language_AddressBook.html STILL opens up the text file though - I just checked out the recent update in r11392 05:27
ajs_home Because of a very long discussion in late 2005 around Time, I'm going to mostly punt time in S29. But if anyone cares, I'm moving time down one namespace hop from Time::Local to Time, and pushing off any documentationn on the use of a Time object to an external document.
audreyt ajs_home: oh, btw. 05:28
ajs_home yes?
audreyt ajs_home: I wonder if it actually makes some sense to list only the core (as in, have no qualified form) functions in Functions.pod
and move everything else to docs/Perl6/API/*
sanug audreyt: PHEME_Parrot_based_Scheme.html opens up correctly as an image-map file.
audreyt as in Math.pod
sanug: good
ajs_home: may make it more manageable in the long run 05:29
esp. with the new P6AST, there's a lot of API on core objects that we need to list
and Functions.pod is already too long
(see also the doc layout for builtin prelude of all other OO languages)
and the Functions.pod can just say 05:30
ajs_home I would tend to agree... however it sort of breaks the stride of the original purpose of sectioning the Ap/Sy documents the way Larry did, doesn't it?
audreyt use Math :EXPORT;
which imports from Math and then reexport 05:31
ajs_home: I think it ceased to make sense a while ago.
nothingmuch en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingy_dƶt_Net
=)
ajs_home Plus EVERYTHING is prefixed in S29... we haven't yet defined which things are auto-use/exported.
audreyt (which is why in copying it to docs/perl6/ I removed the numbering)
ajs_home: esp. for the API, layout it out in Perl6/API/ I think provides more room for edits 05:32
as in, hierarchical
ajs_home Ok, let me continue as I am for a bit, and then at some point, I'll take on the brain surgurey that that suggests.
audreyt okay! 05:35
ajs_home++
sanug audreyt: I moved directories around as you suggested and started svk, can I still do svn pe on moved directory and update Language_AddressBook.html so it has property 05:37
svnbot6 r11393 | ajs++ | Cleaned up word and added docs for time/localtime/gmtime -- in 2005 there was a big discussion about time that I want to avoid for now....
sanug svn pe svn:mime-type Language_AddressBook.html
audreyt: Or should it be svn ps svn:mime-type 'text/html; charset=UTF-8' Language_AddressBook.html 05:39
svnbot6 r11394 | ajs++ | Corrected sprintf signature 05:40
audreyt sure, you can
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svnbot6 r11395 | sanug++ | Updated svn:mime-type properties using this command so that each html file would open up in a browser instead of showing the image map to the user: svn ps svn:mime-type 'text/html; charset=UTF-8' *.html 05:46
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sanug audreyt: HTML files now all properly set up. Thanks for lesson in svk, svn - switching to svk. 05:50
audreyt yay. :)
I need to sleep now. bbiab tomorrow :) 05:51
obra audreyt: I'm hoping to leave the house between 9 and 10 tomorrow
so that yuval gets f00d before he has to fl33
ajs_home must go sleep as well. night all 05:56
audreyt obra: ok 05:57
nothingmuch night guys, i'm also off to bed 05:58
clkao audreyt: should fix -c with v6. the first time (compiling) it doesn't exec, just check. the second time it does run the program 06:04
audreyt clkao: okay, sounds like a great idea! :) 06:05
(it's just the body of v6.pm)
sorry, really gotta sleep.
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gaal greetings from Tel-Aviv! 08:52
miyagawa gaal: hi 09:04
gaal hey :) 09:06
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clkao miyagawa! 09:10
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gaal clkao: isn't it like, very early where you are? 09:19
miyagawa clkao: still in boston? 09:20
clkao miyagawa: in london now 09:22
gaal: it's already 10am
miyagawa great. so everyone's back home now
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clkao is kind of homeless 09:29
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nnunley clkao: Awww. 09:35
miyagawa, gaal: Hey. 09:36
miyagawa nnunley: I just blogged about Algorithm::RabinKarp (in japanese) blog.bulknews.net/mt/archives/002057.html 09:37
lambdabot Title: "Rabin Karp ć‚¢ćƒ«ć‚“ćƒŖć‚ŗōæ½xE3ōæ½x83 ć§ć‚³ćƒ¼ćƒ‰é‡č¤‡ć®ę¤œå‡ŗ: blog.bulknews.net"
nnunley Typo in the module name in that post. 09:39
miyagawa fixing 09:40
xerox Japanese...
miyagawa xerox: babelfish it :) 09:41
nnunley: hm, where's the typo?
nnunley Last line, cpan Algorithm::RabinKarpe 09:42
miyagawa mk
fixed.
gaal nnunley: heya! I didn't get a chance to use the data gathered yet. but now that the hackathon's over maybe it's time :) 09:43
nnunley grins.
Golf time.
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nnunley Audrey: I've extracted possible prerequisite module containing all the calls to the P(ugs|erl6)::Internals namespace. Had two issues: 1. There's two namespaces for Internals. Should there be? 2. there's an *::Internals::eval ... all the other evals have a suffix of the evaluator to be used. Is this intentional? 09:46
gaal: I still have to improve the dup collation code.
gaal nnunley: cool, I'll be happy to try it out when you do 09:48
what's in Perl6::Internals? Can't see anything that uses that namespace 09:49
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gaal As for the evals, maybe I'm not understanding the question, but the idea is that eval is a fontend because in usermode you say "eval 'str' :lang<foo>" 09:50
nnunley Pugs::Internals::eval is a direct hook to the Haskell runtime. 09:53
gaal ahh, you're asking should that be renamed to eval_perl6?
nnunley I'm assuming that everything in the Internals is primative, and is supposed to be supplied by the perl6 runtime.
Right.
For consistency. 09:54
gaal probably it should. fixing.
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nnunley gaal: Look at src/perl6/INTERNALS.txt 09:54
That's the map of all functions called from the Prelude in the Internals namespace. 09:55
gaal yes, fixing that too :) 09:57
nnunley Cool. 10:04
svnbot6 r11396 | gaal++ | * Rename Pugs::Internals::eval to Pugs::Internals::eval_perl6 10:05
r11396 | gaal++ | for consistency, as advised by nnunley++
gaal Looking again I wasn't sure about the Perl6:: issue, looks wrong to me but I'm not familiar with that code. 10:06
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gaal bbiab & 10:07
nnunley k
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Limbic_Region audreyt ping 12:33
Limbic_Region is playing catchup as he was (and still is) under the weather 12:35
did someone already point out that the p6 summary has links to discussions from 3 years ago
?
Limbic_Region knew something was fishy when he saw Dan S. in the summary 12:36
nnunley There's a bit of a backlog. ;)
Limbic_Region I wasn't sure if it was a mistake, a joke, or a test to see who was paying attention
nnunley It does look like a mistake. 12:40
the p6-(internals|porters) stuff is from 2003. The p6-language summary is from 2006. 12:42
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nnunley Right month, though. 12:42
Limbic_Region rafl ping 12:43
ivanfrey I have forgotten how to run the command ranlib. What options am I supposed to pass it.
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marcus_ if you run the parrot test suite backwards, it says 'ONE RUNTIME TO RULE THEM ALL, AND IN THE DARKNESS BIND THEM' 12:55
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Limbic_Region fglock - thanks for the starter example - I have been under the weather for several days now (and still am) but I should get to it sometime this week 13:32
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fglock Limbic_Region: ok! 13:49
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fglock cofee & 13:51
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ivanfrey In the INSTALL file this address " wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj/?Perl%206%20and%20Parrot" doesn't work 14:01
ajs_ Looks like the site is down... might be transient 14:07
nothingmuch audreyt: wakey wakey 14:08
ivanfrey I get errors about libHSpugs-HsSyck-0.1.a and libHSpugs-fps-0.7.a not having a table of contents. I run ranlib on them, but the make process just recreates the archives.
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gaal nothingmuch: moosey moosey 14:24
clkao nothingmuch: i can't send my smoke output. server saz invalid format 14:25
ajs_ Oh great... -Barry- is trolling the Perl 6 Wikipedia page now... I live in hell. 14:26
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gaal ajs: did the bit arrived untoggled? 14:26
ajs gaal: I was able to create an account, and check in, if that's what you're asking 14:27
gaal yup. welcome aboard :)
ajs thanks. Felt good to be able to check in where others would actually read it ;)
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gaal ah, you already checked in? haven 14:28
't blacklogged yet.
ajs Yeah, I checked in my batch of updates, and then did a few small things last night 14:29
Heh, just panicked when I updated my at-work copy of the tree and saw all of the examples being deleted ;)
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gaal heh, something similar happened to me when I ran 'svk sw' on a wifiless train and watched in horror as CapInternals.hs was D'ed. Happily another sw revived it :) 14:31
svnbot6 r11397 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule 0.10 - added Pugs::Runtime::Common.pm
r11397 | fglock++ | - testing on the svn dir works, but it fails all tests in a clean installation
r11397 | fglock++ | (it looks like a Makefile.PL problem)
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ajs Does MMD dispatch on named parameters? If I have "multi foo(Int $x){...}" and "multi foo(Int $y)", is "foo :$y" going to do what I expect? 14:36
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fglock gaal: where is the current definition of the AST? 14:43
svnbot6 r11398 | fglock++ | v6 - emitter uses Pugs::Runtime::Common
clkao fglock: do we want the smoke output 14:45
i can't upload it for some reason. and i have a full output of the failed compile etc 14:46
fglock clkao: it would be good to have it for comparison with later versions 14:48
clkao not sure where to put them though.
mm feather
i had to kill two tests i remember. one is the operator/listquote 14:50
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clkao that seems also infinite loop when compiling 14:51
TimToady clkao: I had to upgrade to latest Task::Smoke to get it to upload my smokes. It was pulling something from 5.8.6 sitelib instead of 5.8.8... 14:53
same error as you're getting, so probably same problem.
fglock clkao: ok - I'm looking operators/listquote.t
clkao TimToady: ah. 14:54
TimToady ajs: that is specced to not be required in 6.0.0.
clkao it'd be nice if the smoke system also captures stderr 14:55
ajs Ok, I'll try to not rely on it in Functions
clkao but see feather.perl6.nl/~clkao/ for the smoke output and the result
lambdabot Title: "Index of /~clkao"
clkao the output is more interesting because you can find things not compiled yet.
TimToady what we do require in 6.0.0 is that if you have proto ($x) then both variants must use $x (which would be a collision).
so all the infix builtins will have proto of ($x,$y), for example 14:56
at least the numeric ones...
ajs Right 14:57
TimToady now if you have multi (; :$x) vs multi (; :$y), then it probably can differentiate them, but on the basis of weeding out completely unacceptable candidates in the first pass, not on the basis of trying to bind to a positional arg. 14:58
to MMD those look like multi () with extra constraints 14:59
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ajs Oh, that might be useful for run() then... 14:59
clkao fglock: also, it seems 08-test now requires 400M ram to finish
TimToady one other factoid is that proto not only limits what you can use for the name, it forces rewrite of the call. 15:00
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TimToady so if you have proto($x,$y), then foo(:$y,$:x) gets rewritten to positional. 15:00
(just for any recognized args)
in other words, proto allows us to recognize some subset of named args as positionals at compile time. 15:01
ajs Hmm... ok, lots to digest. 15:02
TimToady (but only within the scope of the proto declaration, so different callers can have different protos)
ivanfrey Does pugs require Perl 5.8.8 or is 5.8.6 good enough?
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ivanfrey In light of TimToady's comment about Task::Smoke. 15:03
TimToady it's possible that the smoke mechanism now requires 5.8.8, though likely it's just a change to the smoker modules.
I did not attempt to install new Task::Smoke on 5.8.6. 15:04
since I try to run my machines on the latest and greatest.
15:04 snowstalker left
TimToady aka bleeding edge 15:04
but we need people who will do the other thing too... 15:05
fglock 35% !!! 15:06
clkao fglock: well, i'd say 2% 15:07
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clkao because many tests aren't compiled at all, so the total test count is wrong 15:07
so look at v6-smoke.output and fix them ;)
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fglock is postfix:{'<','>'} disallowed after circumfix:{'(',')'} ? I'm trying to parse '(1 | 3)<3' 15:16
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TimToady that's a syntax error. 15:18
you must have a space before infix:{'<'}
otherwise it will always be taken as the postfix. 15:19
fglock is t/operators/listquote.t wrong?
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TimToady yes, it's wrong. 15:21
that should parsefail.
fglock ok - thanks! 15:22
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nothingmuch gaal: moosy 15:23
clkao: i don't know iblech's code very well
it wants an HTML report
i don't know how it could be invalid
except for if compression is involved 15:24
fglock bbiab & 15:26
svnbot6 r11399 | fglock++ | v6 - Expression.pm - added comments confirming '<' parsing behaviour 15:28
r11399 | fglock++ | - note: a parsing error on '<' currently causes an infinite loop
gaal nothingmuch: why does the lopsided picture of you possibly be tagged as "may offend"? 15:29
nothingmuch because it's very very ugly ;-) 15:30
gaal haha
nothingmuch odes *not* photograph well
clkao you know Nosing!
gaal fglock: src/Pugs/AST/CapInternals.hs - but not finished yet :)
nothingmuch nossing!
gaal look for 'data Exp', 'data Stmt', etc, but please note that Exp is no longer necessarily the root of an AST 15:31
fglock: though a compilation unit, it looks like, desugars to something like:
COMPUNIT := module MMMMooo { our $se; sub elk {...} }; 15:32
so at present we have data CompUnit's ast field be an Exp representing that binding.
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Limbic_Region can someone nopaste me their third-party/installed/packages.conf file? 15:35
svnbot6 r11400 | ajs++ | Took a stab at run and runinstead as proposed by Larry. Suggested :bg mode as well, but that might not make sense 15:42
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gaal wow, that was longer than expected 15:58
(p6-c post on testing) 15:59
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nothingmuch ee/w 26 16:10
svnbot6 r11401 | lwall++ | more tests for < postfix vs list policy 16:12
ivanfrey what's the pugs mailing list? I'm trying to subscribe to the perl6-compiler list and I'm having trouble there. 16:13
gaal ivanfrey: there's no official pugs list, but p6-c is the closest, I suppose. what trouble are you seeing there? 16:16
fglock gaal: thanks 16:20
?eval ( {1=>2,}|{3=>4,} )<3> 16:22
TimToady you killed it! 16:23
ivanfrey gaal: maybe the mailto subscribe link is wrong I'm getting back an undeliverable mail.
gaal ivanfrey: [email@hidden.address] I believe. 16:24
TimToady in the larrybot it gives undef. should probably be undef|4, methinks
16:25 ryanus left
fglock larrybot: thanks :) 16:25
gaal undef? junction? why? 16:26
svnbot6 r11402 | ajs++ | Fleshed out OS section with chroot, getlogin and kill -- kill suggests an OS::Signal class with string or integer initializers
fglock gaal: it's an operation on a junction of pairs; it returns a junction of values 16:30
TimToady subscripting should carry through junctions just like any other normal operator. It's only boolean context that forces resolution
gaal ooh, sorry, I didn't see the pipe in the expression. 16:31
TimToady "pipe", he sez. mutter, mutter...
svnbot6 r11403 | ajs++ | Corrected signature of method style kill
gaal I didn't see the elognated quantum particle either... 16:32
buu TimToady: Mind a quick question? Do you prefer lexical variable filehandles, eg $filehandle, or FILEHANDLES? 16:33
fglock gaal: it's not vertically elongated - it's horizontally compressed 16:34
gaal a compressed quantum particle? jeepers!
TimToady given that Perl 6 doesn't have the latter, I think you can guess my opinion.
svnbot6 r11404 | ajs++ | Concurrency.pod suggests a zero-argument method variant of kill. Document that here.
theorbtwo Are we considering a method with no noninvocant arguments to have zero-arguments (and arity zero) now? 16:36
16:36 yango joined
theorbtwo ?eval (method bar () {42}).arity; 16:37
ajs Don't read my checkin comment as anything so sweeping. I may have used the wrong terminology.
But, I would think that that would be the case. 16:38
nothingmuch see you at stevan's house 16:40
theorbtwo OK.
stevan looks around for nothingmuch, but cant seem to find him
kolibrie looks around for stevan's house, but can't seem to see it 16:41
stevan kolibrie: its behind all those buildings,.. to your left
kolibrie stevan: oh, right, okay. 16:42
s/right/left/ 16:44
PerlJam good morroow perl6 people 16:45
kolibrie good morrow, PerlJam 16:46
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stephanepayrard_ where is the repository for the synopsis? 16:53
svnbot6 r11405 | fglock++ | v6 - implemented ' enum day <Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat>; ' 16:54
gaal stephanepayrard_: svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk 16:55
lambdabot Title: "Revision 10067: /doc/trunk"
gaal but RO
stephanepayrard_ thx
gaal wow, fglock++!
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svnbot6 r11406 | fglock++ | v6 - enum importing: ' enum bool <False True>; say True; say bool::False; ' 17:24
fglock t/oo/enums.t - "Segmentation fault" :( 17:26
17:30 kudra joined
kudra hi 17:31
fglock hi!
Limbic_Region kudra - if you didn't notice, audreyt didn't set a very good example for the p6 summary 17:32
some of the lists that were summarized were from 3 years ago
kudra That is my fault.
Limbic_Region oh 17:33
kudra I am not sure precisely how they ended up among the feb 2006 in a chronological list
but next time I will be sure to check the date of every post.
audrey can, at most, be blamed for not catching my mistakes ;) 17:34
rgs good job anyway !
Limbic_Region yes
kind of hard to complain about volunteer work
rgs for people like me that don't have time to read p6-all
Limbic_Region especially from someone who already does soooo much
Limbic_Region was only teasing anyway 17:35
kudra well, I prefer suggestions to complaints, but that didn't sound like a complaint anyway.
but I was already informed of my error by email
I just thought I'd stop by to see if there were other suggestions.
rgs I have one 17:36
be sure to include keywords
so summaries are greppable
for example dont say "S29", but "S29 about this and that" 17:37
kudra Okay. 17:38
I made an effort to come up with descriptive titles early on, but I think that didn't go so well toward the end.
Limbic_Region did I read that the summary will also cover discussions here and/or on #parrot?
rgs this will even help you in the end, to track what was written 17:39
(speaking as a former summarizer)
kudra rgs: My biggest problem is that I don't know anything about what I'm writing about ;)
Limbic: after August, yes.
rgs not a problem, because you'll learn :)
Limbic_Region gotcha
kudra I was not warned of this occupational hazard.
rgs I began to summarize P5P without knowing anything about the P5 internals, and look at me, I'm pumpking now. 17:40
TimToady that's okay, it's also perfectly fine to say "this degenerated into a bunch of technobabble I couldn't be bothered to follow." :)
PerlJam rgs: pumpkingship is your pennance ? :)
kudra Limbic: right now I just can't devote any more time to it.
TimToady just pace yourself.
don't let other people put requirements on you that don't fit. 17:41
Limbic_Region kudra - no worries, I am very appreciative of your initiave
Limbic_Region can't speel
fglock started writing a compiler before knowing the syntax
kudra one a week seems reasonable. Now I know how long it will take me, so I will try to work on it on my commute instead of saving it for Saturday/Sunday.
TimToady hey, I started designing a language without knowing the syntax. :)
still don't, in fact... 17:42
kudra it's hard to know syntax that doesn't exist yet.
PerlJam kudra++ in any case for summarizing :)
TimToady in fact, I'm thinking about making listop<foo> illegal.
SamB that reminds me of english, except for the design part...
TimToady basically, if you want to put a postfix right after a listop, you're required to say listop()<foo> 17:43
kudra well, thanks for the suggestions.
TimToady otherwise we have the counterintuitive result that listop <foo> binds tighter than listop<foo>
long term commitments are hard, so just try to look for things that are burnouty and avoid 'em occasionally. 17:45
(speaking as the one volunteer in the community who is never, ever allowed to burn out. :)
kudra I think with what I'm working on it will be busy until September, then settle down to a reasonable rate. 17:47
kolibrie kudra: you did a great job 17:48
PerlJam TimToady: People are always talking about -Ofun here and I don't think I've seen anyone ask you if you're having fun, so ... Are you having fun?
kolibrie that is most important
TimToady from time to time. :)
though I still hate writing speeches... 17:49
svnbot6 r11407 | fglock++ | v6 - enums.t passes 2/58
Limbic_Region oh, can someone nopaste me their third-party/installed/packages.conf file?
s/someone/anyone/
PerlJam TimToady: Get Damian or Audrey to ghostwrite them for you ;-) 17:50
kolibrie Limbic_Region: audreyt just told me to delete mine, when I had a build error that mentioned it
Limbic_Region kolibrie - what platform are you on?
kolibrie but maybe that was specific to my build
Limbic_Region: debian 17:51
Limbic_Region ok - anyone running ghc 6.2.4 on Win32 that works?
Limbic_Region blames rafl
TimToady Unfortunately (or rather, fortunately) neither Damian nor Audrey thinks like me...
Limbic_Region the only way I can get it to build is by copying the gcc-lib from my ghc directory to the pugs directory 17:52
this has to do with a change rafl made to the build process to use utils/runcompiler instead of ghc
PerlJam TimToady: Ah, then the meta problem is to find (or create) someone that thinks like you. How much do your children think like you? :)
TimToady they is all crazy different from me. 17:53
PerlJam TimToady: Also, I've noticed TimToady-ish tendencies in pmichaud on occassion. But that's probably only superficial as seen through his/your writings.
TimToady well, $.commute(), alas. 17:54
paying for a family is also not always fun... 17:55
$job &
Limbic_Region ok - so does anyone on Win32 (regardless of ghc version) have pugs compiling? 17:56
kudra bye everyone. 17:57
kolibrie kudra: bye
mj41_ r11097 - Successfully built!
r11211 - Could not find module `Data.ByteString':.... Build failed: 256 at util\build_pugs.pl line 126.
Limbic_Region mj41 - ok, so you are having the same problem I am 17:58
there is a work-around
ugly hack of copying the gcc-lib dir from your ghc root to the pugs root dir 17:59
but I want to figure out why that is necessary - but can't seem to ping rafl
who audreyt says is responsible for the change
mj41_ r11211 to r11392 - 70 attempts - still same problem :-( 18:00
Limbic_Region yeah, it is because build_util.pl was changed to use util/runcompiler.exe instead of ghc.exe 18:01
18:02 buubot joined
Limbic_Region is wondering if setting a env var might fix it 18:03
svnbot6 r11408 | fglock++ | v6 - parser: added 'cmp', 'does', 'but'
18:07 buubot joined
Limbic_Region mj41_ I think I am getting somewehre 18:09
somewhere even
18:11 buubot joined 18:13 buubot joined 18:19 iblechbot joined
Limbic_Region nope - dead end 18:20
18:27 lollan joined
Limbic_Region mj41_ does your nmake realclean also fail? 18:30
svnbot6 r11409 | fglock++ | v6 - added prefix:<->
r11409 | fglock++ | - added file Pugs/Runtime/Perl6Prelude.pm
r11409 | fglock++ | -- written in perl 6
r11409 | fglock++ | -- implements enum bool <False True>; true()
r11410 | rootmj++ | * PaP6 ( Parrot and Perl 6 ) testing
r11410 | rootmj++ | ** "svn up *-src dir (svn co first time), recursive copy to *-temp, configure, make, make smoke" test loop
r11410 | rootmj++ | ** redirect output to *-results
r11410 | rootmj++ | ** plus win32 watchdog
r11410 | rootmj++ | ** no warranty and no free time to work on it now
Limbic_Region wow
mj41_ does your nmake realclean also fail
and if yes, perhaps the reason why nmake is failing is because some file that needs to be deleted isn't 18:31
Limbic_Region is grasping at straws
Jedai My Win32 pugs is compiling
r11332 18:32
Limbic_Region Jedai - what version of GHC?
Jedai ghc 6.4.2 18:33
mj41_ i am compiling with PaP6 ... svn up without any modifications
Limbic_Region ok - and you don't have a gcc-lib dir in your pugs root directory right?
Jedai no 18:34
Limbic_Region Jedai?
Jedai I don't have gcc-lib
I use mingw and nmake
Limbic_Region ok - so what's different
how exactly do you use mingw?
Jedai I don't know if there is anything in pugs that use mingw though 18:35
Limbic_Region oh, so you aren't specially using mingw in the pugs build process - it's just there
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Jedai Yes I said taht thinking of Parrot (which use mingw) 18:36
that
My compilation use runcompiler.exe and not ghc as you said
svnbot6 r11411 | ajs++ | Added getpw. OS::PW and PW::PWEnt are tentative names.
r11412 | fglock++ | v6 - added 'use Perl6Prelude' to compiled code
Jedai I don't know what's the difference... o_O 18:37
Limbic_Region would you mind doing a 'set' from the command line and nopasting me your env variables
removing of course any that aren't appropriate to share
pasteling "Jedai" at 86.205.173.169 pasted "env win32" (36 lines, 1.4K) at sial.org/pbot/18296 18:38
Limbic_Region ok - now can you nopaste me the results of Perl Makefile.PL 18:40
er s/Perl/perl/
18:41 b_jonas joined
pasteling "Jedai" at 86.205.173.169 pasted "perl Makefile.PL" (88 lines, 3.3K) at sial.org/pbot/18297 18:42
Limbic_Region does a little dance as he thinks he figured out the problem
Jedai What was it ? 18:43
Limbic_Region don't know for sure - but I got the behavior to change when I switched around %PATH 18:44
svnbot6 r11413 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed default package name
Limbic_Region don't yet know if it actually fixes anything
Jedai I'm using ActivePerl build 817 18:45
mj41_ ActiveState perl? and nmake from cmd.exe (no from msys)?
Jedai from Visual Studio Express (free) 18:46
Limbic_Region hrm - while "different", not fixed 18:47
Jedai it's the latest version, 8.00.50727.42 (I copy it from VS to my Path because having VS on the path disturb ActivePerl Config)
Limbic_Region continues to thrash around hoping something works
18:51 r0nny joined
Limbic_Region ok, I don't know how, but I fixed it 18:54
which is the worst kind of fix
Jedai That's always better than no fix at all ?? 18:55
Limbic_Region oh, no, it is still b0rk
or rather - I figured out how I "fixed it"
a batch file I use to automate some things had included the workaround of copying gcc-lib back into pugs 18:56
so back to square one - I cry uncle
Jedai What's the content of this gcc-lib ?
Limbic_Region mj41_ are you subscribed to p6.compiler?
Jedai - ld.exe and friends 18:57
Jedai - in your ghc root directory, you should have a gcc-lib directory
Jedai It might be that my mingw provide all of that stuff 18:58
I have it in my %PATH%
Limbic_Region as do I
Jedai strange :( 18:59
Limbic_Region re-arranging my PATH to mirror yours produced different results - but still b0rk
not having the first clue as to how this stuff works doesn't really help much
Limbic_Region gives up for the day
Jedai Maybe you should try with a fresh svn checkout ? 19:00
(Well if you didn't already tried it...)
Limbic_Region Jedai - any time I have any hiccups I do a nmake realclean; svn up; perl Makefile.PL; nmake 19:03
I am not the only one this is affecting btw
Jedai but if nmake realclean is broken... (mine is)
Limbic_Region but everyone else (but you) who had it working on Win32 indicated a different version of GHC
Jedai - AFAICT, it is only broke at the very end while wiping out Makefile.PL 19:04
err Makefile that is
though, that was one of my earlier suspicions - something isn't being deleted that should be 19:05
the easy fix is to sit back and wait
eventually, audreyt will want to release a new version 19:06
Limbic_Region will time his restatement of the failure accordingly
till then - I just stick gcc-lib in Pugs 19:07
Jedai it seems my doesn't use config.yml anymore 19:08
Was it superceded by anything ? 19:09
Limbic_Region: as long as you can "fix" it like that I guess that's ok. :)
just noticed this line : Setup.exe: gcc-lib\ld.exe: runProcess: does not exist (No such file or directory) 19:11
Guess my build has broken bits (but I get my pugs in the end and it works so I can hack on it)
Limbic_Region interesting 19:12
Jedai this was r11413 19:13
Limbic_Region clean build or incremental? 19:15
Jedai this one was clean
(almost since ghc ran out of memory in the middle... didn't read my config.yml apparently)
Limbic_Region oh, yeah - heap problems 19:16
Jedai ?eval method bar () {42}; 19:17
I get arity = 2 for this method, is this normal ? 19:18
Limbic_Region wouldn't think so but he is likely not the right person to be asking
Limbic_Region wanders off hoping that rafl will ping him tomorrow 19:19
Jedai Well method signature seems to be broken (or rather TODO I guess ?) anyway
19:22 ludan joined 19:29 myavuzselim joined 19:37 rindolf joined
rindolf Hi all. 19:37
ingy: here?
19:42 b_jonas left 19:43 jkanter joined 19:46 Daveman joined
ingy hi rindolf 19:51
rindolf ingy: hi. 19:52
ingy: I saw your pictures in nothingmuch' Flickr Moose stream.
ingy: you're not too fat.
ingy: in fact, I'm probably as fat as you are.
ingy: did you lose weight? 19:53
19:53 jkanter is now known as jikanter
Daveman rofl 19:54
rindolf www.flickr.com/photos/nuffin/tags/moose/ 19:55
lambdabot Title: "Flickr: nothingmuch's photos tagged with moose"
rindolf www.flickr.com/photos/nuffin/179250879/ # She's pretty cute. 19:56
lambdabot Title: "DSC_3407.jpg on Flickr - Photo Sharing!"
rindolf OK, Firefox 1.5's text editor when editing bidi text is FUBAR. Guess I'll have to use Konqi. 19:59
DILLIGAD == Do I look like I give a damn. I found it amusing. 20:00
en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hebraic_proverbs/Errata 20:02
en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=...did=224844 # Funny how many people don't know the wikipedia ettiquette. 20:03
There was also something like that with the tchrist entry, that got fixed by someone else. 20:04
20:04 weinig|away is now known as weinig 20:07 SageLT joined 20:16 bpphillips left
svnbot6 r11414 | Sage++ | Parser now has rough handling for multiple lines in a quoted yaml scalar block. \nRegexs in quotes in a split now translate (split('\s+', $foo) -> split(/\s+/, $foo)). \nSplit on a space now translates to .words (but doesn't handle a third arguement, split(/ /, $foo, 3) just drops the 3 at this point). 20:24
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svnbot6 r11415 | daxim++ | naming docs/notes/context_coer[cs]ion.pod to something more reasonable 20:51
r11416 | Sage++ | Updating to reflect completed translations. 20:54
fglock sent Pugs-Compiler-Rule-0.10 to cpan 21:00
nothingmuch returns with great dramatic effect 21:01
ajs Should I expect that :$foo always expands to :foo<$foo>, or only in captures?
In other words, if I "return(:$foo, :$bar)" do I return a list of two pairs? 21:02
audreyt it is in a capture.
so you make a named return 21:03
if it's used as a list instead of being bound to
then it becomes two Pair objects
compare
ajs Nice. Thanks
audreyt sub f { return(:$foo, :$bar) }
my ($foo, $bar) := f(); 21:04
with
my ($foo, $bar) = f();
note however there is a way to unambiguously return two pairs instead of named returns
and it's perhaps surprising:
fglock audreyt: did you see the new Pugs::Runtime::Perl6Prelude.pm ?
audreyt return (:$foo, :$bar);
fglock: no... not yet
clkao fglock: oh? did you talk to nnunley?
fglock clkao: no 21:05
audreyt fglock: btw, what do you think about making dirname-distname agree
svk mv perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Perl6/ perl5/v6-alpha/
clkao summon nnunley
audreyt nnunley: *summon*
fglock audreyt: sure - split into 2 modules, even
mm - no, it's easier to maintain in one place 21:06
audreyt fglock: may make sense to bundle them until we have a second backend for v6.pm to dispatch to
nnunley Yes?
audreyt which = some time in the future I'm sure
nnunley audreyt: You rang?
audreyt (but not in the forseeable months)
clkao use should reuse the src/perl6/Prelude.pm 21:07
audreyt nnunley: clkao summoned you; I'll bbiab :)
clkao audreyt: second backend - i think we should hook up a revised emitter in perl6, and self-bootstrap
nnunley glances across his flat.
clkao nnunley: fglock is wokring on pugs::runtime::perl6prelude
21:09 nxu7 joined
nnunley fglock: Ok. I have a stub implementation of the Internals that need to be present in order to compile Prelude.pm in perl6. 21:09
There were some namespace issues (Pugs vs Perl6)
But other than that, there weren't many things that couldn't be hoisted into the perl5 backend. 21:10
fglock nnunley: the Prelude can export the subs, so the actual namespace doesn't make much difference
nnunley True. 21:11
fglock: Have you seen perl6/INTERNALS.txt? That is the list of functions that the old Prelude expects to be exported. 21:12
fglock how about packaging the Prelude and Test.pm into a cpan package that would be common to all implementations
nnunley: my Perl6Prelude is mostly a placeholder - it would be nice to reuse Prelude.pm 21:14
nnunley nods. 21:15
clkao fglock: can you see why 08test is takin 400M ram? 21:18
svnbot6 r11417 | daxim++ | explain use of "(history of this directory)" in openfoundry.org browsable VCS
fglock otoh, the prelude is a bit low level, and implementation-dependent
clkao there are many bits implementation-indepedent, i think the idea is to have those shared and define a list of required things to be implemented by backend 21:19
fglock clkao: compiling it with non-backtracking rules will fix that - but PCR is not ready for the transition yet (missing a few functions)
clkao: each character in the source code requires creating a closure :( 21:20
clkao *nod*
nnunley Ieeee. 21:21
clkao fglock: did you get a chance to look at the failed compile smoke output?
subroutine/multidimensional_arglists is also infinite loop 21:22
fglock yes - that's why I started implementing enum - it's the test with more failures :)
clkao ;) 21:23
fglock TimToady fixed the listquote test 21:24
some subs in Prelude.pm are already implemented - like eval, caller 21:30
nnunley fglock: There's the multi eval, and then there's Pugs::Internals::eval_perl6 (which was eval in the INTERNALS doc when I wrote it) 21:33
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nnunley fglock: But you're right. Things that are implemented in the Prelude should be trimmed from that list. 21:36
fglock having a common Prelude is a good idea - nothingmuch was working on an idea for using a base Prelude and additional implementation-specific ones 21:40
the base Prelude would "depend on itself", so the implementation-specific Prelude would be used to break circularity 21:41
svnbot6 r11418 | lwall++ | hash subscript no longer allowed directly after listop.
fglock nnunley: where is INTERNALS.txt ? 21:44
nnunley src/perl6/INTERNALS.txt 21:45
fglock: I can also commit my stub implementation. I was going to inject it into the Runtime directory of Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 21:46
fglock nnunley: how about merging into Runtime::Perl6.pm (or Perl6Prelude.pm, if it is v6) ? 21:48
just create new 'package' sections 21:49
nnunley Yeap. 21:53
fglock nnunley: thanks! 21:54
we can rule a common rule for internal namespaces with audreyt later 21:55
s/rule rule/rule/ whatever
21:57 b_jonas joined
fglock clkao: how about bundling Test.pmc with v6 in cpan? 21:57
clkao sure 21:59
fglock clkao: I already submitted the changes I've made to PCR - if you are ok with Data::Bind in cpan we could do a new v6 release 22:03
s/we/you/ :) 22:07
svnbot6 r11419 | fglock++ | v6 - updated MANIFEST; ChangeLog
clkao fglock: surething 22:09
nnunley fglock: Hrm. What I have causes a parsefail. Do you want me to commit anyway? 22:10
fglock nnunley: does it fail the v6 t/* ? 22:12
clkao fglock: did you fix the hash test? 22:14
Jedai Did someone manage to get Devel::Caller 0.10 to pass the tests on win32 ? 22:16
fglock clkao: I implemented some of the syntax, but it's not complete yet
nnunley fglock: Hrm. Doesn't much like me using 'caller' as a function name. 22:17
Ok. I've commented out the offending line.
fglock Jedai: I'm reinstalling - current is 0.11 22:18
nnunley: we can put 'caller' in the identifier mangling list if necessary
22:19 prefiks left
nnunley fglock: Committed. 22:20
The signatures and documentation for the arguments are a bit lacking.
fglock nnunley: thanks!
nnunley Hrm. Current Prelude dies with a parse failure on 'class Control::Basic' 22:21
fglock Jedai: Devel::Caller 0.11 installed fine with vanilla-perl on windows XP
svnbot6 r11422 | nnunley++ | Importing stubs implementations of internal functions required by /src/perl6/Prelude.pm
fglock nnunley: given/when is not implemented yet in the parser 22:22
nnunley nods. 22:24
fglock ' eval("sleep($seconds)", lang<perl5>) ' is compiled at runtime - is there an option in perl 6 to precompile? 22:26
Jedai fglock: Thanks it works fine here too
On ActivePerl build 817 with mingw and nmake
TimToady BEGIN {...} 22:27
fglock TimToady: the sentence is: sub sleep($seconds) { eval("sleep($seconds)", lang<perl5>); } 22:28
we need something like: sub sleep($seconds) { BEGIN { eval("sleep($seconds)", lang<perl5>) } } 22:29
nnunley Or macro notation for the backend... 22:30
fglock or intercept the calls in the emitter, which we've been doing so far 22:31
is macros the way to go? 22:32
TimToady or are you just wanting to inline Perl 5 code?
fglock TimToady: yes
TimToady: that's Prelude code for v6.pm 22:34
clkao in the js prelude, it's using special javascript_inline 22:38
fglock TimToady: can we use :P5 like in regexes? ' :P5 { sleep $seconds } ' 22:39
svnbot6 r11423 | clkao++ | Data::Bind 0.27. 22:42
r11424 | fglock++ | v6 - Perl6Prelude.pm s/lang<perl5>/:lang<perl5>/ 22:45
r11425 | clkao++ | Sub::Multi 0.001_2
nnunley Doh. 22:46
fglock clkao: can it be Sub::Multi 0.002 ? cpan doesn't install _x versions easily 22:47
clkao orz 22:48
fglock home & 22:52
22:53 fglock left 23:04 froh-doh joined
ivanfrey Pr 23:19
svnbot6 r11426 | lwall++ | Discouraging constructs that look like subscripts but aren't. 23:24
23:50 frederico joined

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