svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | dev.pugscode.org/
Set by putter on 11 February 2007.
Limbic_Region salutations audreyt - still hospitalized? 00:00
audreyt yeah. 00:01
going to get today's test results in a couple hours
to see if I can be discharged. about 50% chance I think 00:02
Limbic_Region keeps you in his prayers 00:03
audreyt thank-you :)
00:04 cognominal joined
Limbic_Region I also sent you a private /msg too 00:04
00:05 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
[M]erk TimToady, I think that S05 assumes that the reader is already familiar with perl5 regex. This sort of defeats the purpose of having a specification. 00:10
00:15 lumi joined
moritz one could argue that pcre are a quasi standard ;) 00:18
but I agree that it's not optimal
00:20 rafl joined 00:23 polettix joined 00:24 nekokak joined 00:28 silug joined 00:49 neonse left
audreyt so. not quite ready to be discharged 00:59
probably going to be discharged in two days
I'm getting better but they're not confident enough to let me roam the streets...
audreyt happily goes back to sleep &
01:00 _Merk_ joined 01:11 bsb joined 01:18 justatheory joined 01:19 _Merk_ is now known as [M]erk, weinig|bbl is now known as weinig 01:38 araujo joined 01:44 mjk joined 01:48 weinig is now known as weinig|away 02:01 xdg_ joined 02:50 Limbic_Region joined 03:04 dduncan joined 03:19 MegaRevolt joined 03:20 jisom joined 03:55 Aankhen`` is now known as Aankhen` 03:57 Aankhen` is now known as Aankhen`` 03:58 Aankhen`` joined 04:05 araujo joined 04:33 ashleyb joined 04:41 CardinalNumber joined 04:59 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun 05:01 araujo joined 05:03 amnesiac joined
gaal p6 Range also has two kinds of endpoints, doesn't it. Inclusive or exclusive... 05:17
tene Yes. 05:18
?eval 1..6
?eval 1..^6
05:18 evalbot_r15305 is now known as evalbot_r15306
evalbot_r15306 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) 05:18
(1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
tene ?eval 5.5 ~~ 1..^6 05:19
evalbot_r15306 Bool::False
05:20 chromo joined 05:23 Aankhen`` joined 05:24 jamhed joined 05:31 [particle] joined
gaal so it's represented by more than "data Ord a => Range a = MkRange a a" 05:37
audreyt moose 05:38
we don't have Range yet
gaal more like MkRange { r_start :: a, r_end :: a, r_startInc :: Bool, r_endInc :: Bool }
I know :)
moose :)
audreyt also either end can be Inf 05:39
as in *
gaal no matter the type of the other end?
audreyt aye
when both end is *, it always matches
I guess that's a DeRange
tene ?eval 5.5 ~~ 1..*
audreyt that's a ulimit test... 05:40
evalbot_r15306 (no output)
audreyt good. ulimit works
tene Will it always be?
gaal hehe
audreyt nope.
tene Just checking.
audreyt I should blog, maybe
gaal how deranged.
audreyt or I should attack MO
gaal i should go to work :(
audreyt oi :/ 05:41
tene the ulimit settings in evalbot don't protect against "fork while fork", though.
audreyt I should have no work to do for a month :)))
gaal moose!
audreyt tene: fork happily is Unsafe
gaal tene: but fork's unsafe
hee, audreyt's still the fastest moose in the moose
tene ?eval fork
evalbot_r15306 0ā¤32358
gaal uh-oh
tene evalbot doesn't complain about forking.
audreyt uh oh. 05:42
gaal fixed.
should async also be unsafe?
audreyt no.
async is in-process microthread
gaal yy
committed. 05:43
audreyt gaal++
svnbot6 r15307 | gaal++ | * mark fork as unsafe. tene++ for noticing.
gaal tene++
work&
06:04 brad__ joined
brad__ hi 06:05
audreyt brad__: greetings! 06:06
brad__ audrey, i have always wanted to meet you 06:07
i hope you are feeling better
not often i get to meet a luminary
i am a perl6 lurker and pugs player-wither
sometimes commenting on your blog as "grumpy" 06:08
audreyt well, this particular one is more flickry than luminary at the moment
oh hi!
brad__ i was wondering what happened to you
then again after your rash of insane output, i was assuming burnout
which is fair 06:09
audreyt I thought so too
but burnout usually recover within a few weeks
brad__ hopefully pugs will be fun again soon
no more politicking
audreyt and this time my nonmotivation and fatigue gradually worsened
so I'm glad it has a much simpler explanation 06:10
and I'm on my way to recovery
brad__ awesome, we need you if only for your kick-ass presentations
but your code is nice too!
audreyt well, it's a pity that the onset happened on the night before my google.tw talk :/
but we'll schedule another talk next month probably :)
brad__ cool 06:11
how far out of sync do you think pugs has become with the state-of-the synopses?
audreyt I wondered if grumpY! works at yahoo (hence the Y!) for quite a while
brad__ yes i am old-time yahoo.
i wrote a bunch of the early parts of the site 06:12
audreyt aha. still @yahoo?
brad__ 11 years+ now
yes still there
audreyt cool!
brad__ larry built my house
audreyt I heard that the early parts were all perl
brad__ yes!
and i still root for perl there
audreyt :D
so, re out of sync. ~3months
brad__ when we were trying to find a replacement for our internal server-side lang, i chaired to mod_perl side
i lost to php, its been downhill ever since 06:13
audreyt well I was told that parts of Yahoo is still in mod_perl...
but php is "canonical"
brad__ yes and yes, they still provide some support to mod_perl, but they'll likely kill that over time
too bad too
but its water under the bridge
they intentionally wanted an idiot language 06:14
and they got one in php
06:14 BooK_ joined
audreyt re politicking, yeah it took most of the fun away from me when I was in .br 06:14
renewed my resolve to ignore all politics this time around
brad__ and the reddit postings must not help
i am sure you have seen
tene explain "intentionally wanted an idiot language"?
audreyt no, I had not 06:15
brad__ programming.reddit.com/info/157m0/comments
lambdabot Title: Perl 6 and Parrot: Things I Probably Shouldn't Say But No One Else Seems To ...
audreyt nor do I actually want to
brad__ tene - a motivation to get a tool that had some power but not as complex as perl
which i will rewrite as wanting an idiot language
my own editorial there
at least with php4 i can say you can feel your iq drop as you use it 06:16
06:16 CardinalNumber joined
brad__ in any case audrey, i credit you with leading me to haskell 06:17
if perl6 never pans out i will get something out of this
i am in no danger of being in your realm of expertise of course
room has gone silent...was it my cologne? 06:18
tene The room is often silent.
audreyt well, hopefully not anymore :)
brad__: do you prefer the nick "brad" or "bjc"?
(when committing to pugs)
brad__ audrey - let me commit to this. i will read the pugs code and try to understand it, then i will humbly take a commit bit for something harmless 06:19
it is important for you to understand how far you are ahead of the rest of us 06:20
audreyt an invitation is on its way to your inbox regardless... :)
brad__ which one?! you can send to [email@hidden.address]
oh boy, i put an email address in a irc log
game over for me
audreyt done 06:21
brad__ i will promise you that i will crack open the pugs code again
audreyt woot!
brad__ my kids grant me three hours a night for me stuff
audreyt are you not also bjc @ yahoo?
brad__ i gave up that email because of too much spam, i also gave up [email@hidden.address] years agao too (i had it before yahoo mail existed, when yahoo used @yahoo.com) 06:22
audreyt (I sent an invitation there, too, with nick "bjc". the b7j0c one I sent an invitation too with nick "brad".)
gotcha.
brad__ thanks audrey! i will not waste the opportunity
audreyt wow, such politeness :) 06:23
brad__ well i legitimately think you are a genius. so i am giving deference
audreyt re the reddit post. after 3mo of rest I can honestly say I have no hard feeling wrt chromatic anymore... he sometimes unintentionally exaggerates things for effect (such as the parrot's release frequency), but overall he is cool. 06:24
brad__ i sensed that, i think some people just like a little drama 06:25
audreyt aye. so it's all fine now
please test that svn works by adding yourself to AUTHORS and commit -- our new invite.pugscode.org system havn't seen much use, unlike the old one 06:26
and welcome aboard :)
brad__ thanks!
hey, i thought you would be a shoe-in to use darcs
audreyt there is also darcs.pugscode.org. 06:27
brad__ i tried it out of haskell-snobbery and am sold on it
audreyt read-only at the moment, though
but people do use it all the time to track our commits
brad__ i am interested in what os you use, out of curiosity
audreyt (as seen in http logs)
freebsd for a long, long time.
finally decided I can't hack all layers of computing
so I'm on darwin/osx now
brad__ hmm, i am on freebsd6.2 now 06:28
audreyt which is like freebsd except it doesn't prompt me to learn obscure computing knowledge that often
offby1 yeah, just getting my wireless card working on FreeBSD 6.2 was a challenge
brad__ really? i have an ANCIENT laptop and wpa_supplicant did the trick!
with a netgear card 06:29
audreyt and I had to hack snd_ich to unbreak the sound card that's broken during a _point release_
etc, etc. :)
brad__ hmmm, yeah multimedia has never been a bsd strong suit
but then again my UI of choice is gnu screen
so my needs are modest
audreyt ditto.
offby1 brad__: I have no idea what wpa_supplicant is.
brad__ screen over dwm! 06:30
audreyt oh and darwin runs OmniGraffle :)
offby1 I naĆÆvely expected it to just work when I plugged it in. Silly me
brad__ offby1 - in debian and freebsd you have to do some twiddling for wireless. ubuntu is what you want if you want wireless out of the box
there are good reasons for this
ubuntu will use binary blobs
debian won't 06:31
freebsd will
but they don't care that much about laptops (yet)
tene And yet they will all run Perl6!
brad__ that they will
audreyt wonders about writing device drivers with perl6
brad__ in any case, my UI is designed to be a console done with xft fonts. that is all i want 06:32
i REALLY use elinks as my browser
audreyt elinks > w3m because... ?
(w3m is my browser of choice.)
offby1 brad__: I had been using ubuntu for just that reason. Foolishly upgraded to feisty, and ... wireless stopped working :-(
brad__ elinks is just a weee bit easier to customize
and also, it had lua scripting
audreyt ah. Lua.
very important that. 06:33
brad__ but that was before i discovered PRIVOXY
now i do not need lua scripting
PRIVOXY FTW
pcre-enabled net proxy!
06:34 rfordinal joined, CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
brad__ also elinks has numbered links 06:34
numbered links are important in a text browser
crucial imo
in any case i still beat the drum of having parrot be the vm of firefox 06:35
because i hate js
but it will never happen 06:36
tamarin FTW :(
06:37 d4rk_hun7er joined, d4rk_hun7er left
brad__ okay audrey - created a passcode at pugscode. what now? 06:38
tene brad__: add yourself to AUTHORS and commit
audreyt re tamarin FTW. yes definitely.
also JS2/ECMA4 is really, really not bad. 06:39
I can't bring myself to hate it at all :)
brad__ i know the next js is not bad, but i hate being denied choice 06:40
why must there be only one client language?
audreyt well as long as we target tarmarin
it's just another vm
brad__ yes but is js a viable compile target?
audreyt oh definitely.
brad__ i wonder
we'll see
audreyt it may be that tamarin bytecode is easiest to target 06:41
but in any case we need to get 6.28.0 out of the door... an object model bridge can only exist when _both_ sides exist
brad__ hopefully, actually the world does not give a poop what i think, the web platform is settled
audreyt which reminds me. I should get hacking :)
(bbiab) 06:42
gaal audreyt: how much newVal changes should go into 6.28.0?
audreyt gaal: all of it
brad__ okay with that i will let you sign off, i got my fandom in for the night, i met audrey. audrey i will check out the pugs tree and get reading
gaal need to revisit much of Parser.*
audreyt gaal: though I'm still not sure about the VPure/VMut/VExt variance typing
I intend to get
gaal oh?
audreyt vv('some string').reverse
working using MO today
yeah. it's better to carry the P/STM/IO type annotation directly within the Val type 06:43
then we only have the Val type.
(for now.)
since we're optimizing for consistency not for speed
brad__ bye everyone, thanks for putting up with me
audreyt the intrinsics and undefs can just be normal Val for now
brad__: see you soon!
brad__ good night! 06:44
gaal bye
I don't see quite how it goes
audreyt I'll code instead :)
easier that way :)
gaal haskell+++
hehe, I didn't even mean to put an extra + there
"haskell" ++ repeat '+' or something 06:45
tene Or perhaps you were endorsing something called haskell+ 06:46
gaal +++. Is that preendorsing or postendorsing? 06:48
++++ 06:49
06:50 mjk joined 07:03 ashelyb_ joined 07:06 devogon joined 07:28 czth_ joined 07:39 marmic joined 07:51 Khisanth joined 08:07 CardinalNumber joined 08:13 iblechbot joined 08:24 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun, spinclad joined 08:27 drrho joined
svnbot6 r15308 | gaal++ | * improve decode-utf-chunks.t to make the TAP telling. 08:33
gaal could anyone run a 15308 pugs against t/xx-uncategorized/decode-utf-chunks.t and see if they get those weird backslashes too? 08:35
"ok 2 - chunk \#0"
audreyt it's not weird 08:36
TAP protocol mandates it
otherwise it's comment like
gaal ahhhh
audreyt #SKIP
gaal right, right
audreyt so just drop the # from the tests
gaal haha, i was thinking it's a pugsbug
yeah
fixed.
audreyt k
svnbot6 r15309 | gaal++ | * declutter TAP output by dropping the "#" 08:37
gaal this runs very slow on a 'make fast' pugs 08:38
making a non-fast pugs...
gaal considers renaming 'make fast' to 'make soon' 08:39
08:45 dduncan left
audreyt gaal: do it :) 08:49
gaal done. we should also have "cheap" and "good" targets maybe. 08:53
svnbot6 r15310 | gaal++ | * Makefile.PL ~~ s/fast/soon/, as this target builds a slow pugs. 08:54
Juerd make tuits
gaal make love 08:55
audreyt not war? 08:56
"make test, not war"
so vv('foo') is close to working
jisom don't you want a battle hardened pugs?
audreyt but then I discovered my attention span, though much improved, is still not normal 08:57
audreyt faints into unconsciousness for a bit &
gaal make sweet-dreams
actually "make fast" builds a shipworthy pugs 08:58
that doesn't shift as the ship heels etc.
I don't have any good comparison points, but isn't >20sec slow for t/xx-uncategorized/decode-utf 09:14
-chunks.t ?
09:52 chris2 joined 10:11 jisom joined 10:14 elmex joined 10:18 pfarmer joined 10:37 ruoso joined 10:47 VanilleBert joined
wolverian Juerd, I see feather has bitlbee installed. how does one use it? :) 10:56
Juerd, it's not in inetd.conf afaics..
Juerd Preferrably not at all, if I were you. It's a huge privacy hazard. 10:57
But see man bitlbee
wolverian oh. it is?
Juerd Run it with -D
wolverian is it because of bitlbee itself, or the method it is used on feather? I was just setting up it on my own server, too.
Juerd Sure - people on instant messaging will assume you're in for intimate personal talk, while feather is hardly secure.
wolverian ah. true enough. 10:58
hrm, well. irssi does something it doesn't like and the connection fails, anyway. 11:02
and on my server, from inetd, it just refuses the connection. sigh :) 11:03
I love daemons without logging..
11:19 pdcawley joined
svnbot6 r15311 | fglock++ | kp6 - added Code.pm 12:00
12:14 CardinalNumber joined 12:15 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun 12:34 xdg joined
avar What are some of the posix regexp implementations? glibc, ..? 12:52
avar ot:)
-/w 5 12:54
eek
moritz POSIX defines regexes?
avar yep 12:55
moritz in this channel I learn more than in 13 years school ;)
13:08 shay_ joined 13:11 buetow joined 13:14 rindolf joined 13:18 renormalist joined 13:19 Ziggy6 left
moritz TimToady: will there be a "Programming Perl 6" book? 13:20
13:21 Ziggy6 joined
pdcawley would be surprised if there weren't. 13:23
13:27 shay_ is now known as shay 13:55 smash joined 13:59 CardinalNumber joined 14:04 lumi_ joined 14:14 Limbic_Region joined 14:18 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
xdg moritz: I think TimToady needs to finish the language spec first. :-) 14:22
Though, really, I assume a compilation of all the synopses, etc. will be the base of any such book.
14:23 IllvilJa joined 14:37 vel joined 14:53 elmex joined 15:32 ruoso joined 15:33 thepler joined 16:22 CardinalNumber joined 16:43 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun, MegaRevolt left 16:46 diakopter joined 16:49 iblechbot joined, elmex joined 17:00 theorbtwo joined 17:15 silug joined
Khisanth pokes Someone at 85.197.228.236 17:28
17:31 rindolf joined 17:40 ashleyb joined 17:41 lumi joined 17:43 nipra joined
svnbot6 r15312 | gaal++ | * very broken UTF-8 caused a crash. added a test and fixed the crash. 17:44
r15312 | gaal++ | (Note: please do not add the usual svn props to pathological-8bit.dat)
18:09 seano joined 18:13 ashleyb joined 18:18 dec_ joined
cj moritz: the prototype for the Programming Perl 6 book is the Perl6 Apocalypses: dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/apocalypse.html 18:35
lambdabot Title: Perl6 Apocalypses - perl6
cj right, that.
18:39 pdcawley joined
ingy seen audreyt 18:43
jabbot ingy: audreyt was seen 9 hours 46 minutes 41 seconds ago
18:47 justatheory joined 19:00 weinig|away is now known as weinig 19:25 ashleyb joined 19:31 jisom joined 19:33 jisom left, jisom joined 19:35 Limbic_Region joined 19:42 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
qmole 3 20:00
20:03 larsen_ joined 20:09 upd_ joined 20:16 CardinalNumber joined 20:33 IllvilJa joined 20:34 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
ingy qmole: I think you want #python ;) 20:55
(if you insist on discussing the Holy Hand Grenade) 20:56
20:58 buetow joined
ingy hi buetow 20:58
buetow hi
20:59 dduncan joined 21:12 drupek12 joined 21:21 avarab joined 21:28 mrossetti joined, mrossetti left 21:36 avarab is now known as avar 21:41 upd_ is now known as upd 21:45 Caelum joined 21:58 Limbic_Region joined 22:01 justatheory joined 22:18 putter joined 22:20 larsen_ joined 22:24 dec_ is now known as dec 22:27 Psyche^ joined, justatheory joined 22:35 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner 22:42 polettix joined 22:51 Khisanth joined 23:00 rashakil joined 23:14 CardinalNumber joined 23:16 ashelyb_ joined 23:21 dduncan left 23:28 dduncan joined
putter TimToady: is there a spec way to select p6 dialect within a p5 re? perhaps (?p6) (?p6:...) ? Don't ever need (?-p6) ;) 23:29
(?5) (?5:...) 23:30
err, no. (?6) (?6:...)
moritz putter: uhm, from p5 I don't know such a construct, so why should it exist in p5-regexes in p6? 23:31
putter: I thought they were mainly for backwards compatibility and convenience...
putter: and if you need more advanced features you can fall back to p6 rules 23:32
putter symmetry? it's a backward compatible mod of p5 re syntax.
if you have flavor x and y, and you can embed x in y, it's just asking for headaches to be unable to embed y in x. 23:33
re "mod of p5", no pun intended. really. 23:37
23:37 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
moritz ;) 23:37
23:38 ashleyb joined, araujo joined
moritz well, I'd say that both points are valid and that it's just a matter of taste/convenience which one to choose 23:38
(of course this beeing perl I know what the answer will be ;)) 23:39
putter lol
23:39 justatheory joined
moritz putter: and beeing (becoming...) a physicist I appreciate symmetries as well ;) 23:43
putter Basically why I'm here. Perl's eschewing of the otherwise pervasive "no, you may NOT have that power, because it {can't be compiled efficiently, can't be type checked, is ugly, is likely to be abused, confuses newbies, etc, etc, etc}". 23:45
Hmm. General eschewing. I still think not being able to define methods on ARRAY,HASH,etc, was... well, closed off one rich direction for language evolution. 23:48
23:48 Aankhen`` joined
tene putter: explain more? 23:48
moritz putter: can you at least inherit from {ARRAY,HASH,etc}? 23:49
putter there were p5 patches to permit {package HASH;sub foo{} } {}->foo; it was (perhaps correctly) thought this would cost more in bugs and confusion than it was worth. 23:50
wolverian I think it's a pretty universal sentiment that tie() was not the right solution either :) 23:52
moritz but still a clean interface allowing just that would be cool ;)
putter basically it might have permitted rubyesque "everything is an object" style.
23:52 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
putter moritz: re "inherit from ARRAY, HASH", I don't believe so. I believe you have to use tiearray,etc, and annoying tie games. 23:54
23:54 TimToady_ joined
putter :) 23:55
moritz well, time for bed ;) 23:59
TimToady_ putter: I certainly wouldn't stop anyone from adding a (?p6:...) to p5... :)

Powered by Cro and the RakuĀ® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!