»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | Rakudo Star Released!
Set by diakopter on 6 September 2010.
dalek ecza/mm: 1230f2e | sorear++ | / (5 files):
[mm] Implement compilation of settings
 00:01
ecza/mm: 8b3c3db | sorear++ | src/ (3 files):
[mm] Implement compilation of modules which use settings
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sorear good * #perl6 03:08
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sorear \o/ niecza/mm can now run setting-using code "hello, world".say 03:30
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ash_ sorear: i was thinking about see if it was possible to somehow keep all the fires that make up core.pm as their individual files instead of just concatenating them together, then compiling each file individually into a pir, then compile each of the pir's into pbc's and finally using pbc_merge 03:43
sorear ash_: it's a cute idea, but it won't work. The setting has to be a single parrot Sub 03:47
ash_ why?
could there not be a setting's module that you can append to later on? like how you can always say GLOBAL:: 03:48
sorear ash_: because set_outer only takes one argument
ash_: the setting is NOT a module, this is a crucial point
the setting is a Sub which user code is inside of
ash_ so, your saying all of the initialization that happens in core.pm needs to happen lexically outside of the user code? 03:49
sorear yes
Something can be done, I'm sure, but you'll need a much bigger hammer than pbc_merge 03:50
probably, a custom LexPad instance will be required
ash_ ya, sounds like it
sorear talk to pmichaud FIRST
ash_ doesn't everything get added to GLOBAL? from core.pm? 03:51
sorear NO!
ash_ ah
sorear read S02:2590 03:52
ash_: the REPL can extend a single lexical scope
you should study it 03:53
also, get pmichaud to commit to accepting your idea before you write the patch; I forgot this step the last time I implemented core splitting
ash_ oh, that reminds me of a repl bug, you might have more ideas about it than me, in a repl do: my $*a; <enter> then: say $*a;
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ash_ so, if you do: use SETTING_MODE; # that's in rakudo already to specify the start of SETTING, could you make that comp_unit append to a special LexPad that was the SETTING scope LexPad? does that sound reasonable? 03:59
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araujo ideone.com/HloeA 04:07
I guess, '+ [ 1 ] [ 3 ] => [ 1 3 ] , + [ 2 ] 4 => [ 2 4 ]' ... those operations make sense, though I wonder if it either makes sense for '+ 2 [ 4 ]' to return the index sum or a list with 2 added to each element ... :/ 04:09
sorear ash_: "reasonable" is a rather high bar to shoot for
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ash_ well, i'd start with reasonable then move to practical 04:11
what is that written in? the ideone.com thing
oh, it says at the top, erlang, nm
araujo ash_, hehe, it is a small language i write 04:12
I just pick erlan as the syntax highlight
:P
ash_ oh, got ya
sorear ash_: start with working, then move to reasonable 04:13
ash_ sorear: just making sure the idea sounds good, if the idea doesn't make sense, then i need to think more
sorear ash_: it doesn't make less sense than what we already have, that would be hard 04:14
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araujo even though I got quicksort working, I still can't find a name for this .... -_- ... so if anyone has an idea, let me know 04:14
ash_ araujo: which this? 04:16
araujo ash_, oh, the language 04:18
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tadzik good morning 04:37
sorear hello tadzik 04:38
diakopter anyone know offhand where's the new place to put botnix paths 04:39
aka dalek 04:40
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diakopter aka Infinoid hilite 04:40
sorear diakopter: dalek-conf.json in mu 04:41
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diakopter sorear: thanks 04:41
sorear dalek git pulls once an hour and reloads config from the repo
diakopter ok. i'm in no hurry, but I'm adding sprixel -3.0
that's a negative sign, btw 04:42
sigh. but I don't want to clone all of mu... oh well. 04:43
diakopter whiner
sorear it's smaller than a svn checkout of just one revision
diakopter but I can svn checkout just that file 04:44
well, at least just that file's dir
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diakopter wait, by 'git clone mu' did I just download *all* revisions/diffs of mu? 04:48
tadzik yep
(tip: it's not that big)
sorear That includes stuff which has been deleted, like every version of Pugs itself and every version of the testsuite 04:49
diakopter yeah
sorear wonders how well github's rw-svn would work for mu
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dalek : a0dc5ad | diakopter++ | misc/dalek-conf.json:
add sprixel negative three point oh to dalek-conf.json
 04:57
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cbk rakudo: my @input =<2 4 6 8 10>; say "DATA SET: "~@input; say "Max: "~@input.max; say "Min: "~@input.min; 05:06
p6eval rakudo 607ec4: OUTPUT«DATA SET: 2 4 6 8 10␤Max: 8␤Min: 10␤»
nymacro nasty 05:07
rakudo: my @input = <2 4 6 8 10>; say "DATA SET: "~@input; say "Max: "~[max]@input; say "Min: "~[min]@input;
p6eval rakudo 607ec4: OUTPUT«DATA SET: 2 4 6 8 10␤Max: 8␤Min: 10␤»
cbk ?? 05:08
i don't think 10 is the smallest number in the set...
nymacro Yeah, seems like something has been broken 05:09
nymacro points at moritz_
hmm
cbk rakudo: my @input =<2 4 6 8 10>; say "DATA SET Sorted: "~@input.sort; 05:10
p6eval rakudo 607ec4: OUTPUT«DATA SET Sorted: 10 2 4 6 8␤»
nymacro rakudo: my @input = 0..5; say "DATA SET: "~@input; say "Max: "~@input.max; say "Min: "~@input.min; 05:11
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p6eval rakudo 607ec4: OUTPUT«DATA SET: 0 1 2 3 4 5␤Max: 5␤Min: 0␤» 05:11
sorear stefan@stefans:~/rel/niecza$ ./niecza_eval -L SAFE -e 'say "Hello, world"'
Hello, world
plobsing rakudo: my @input = < 2 4 6 8 10>.map(+*); say "Max: ", @input.max; say "Min: ", @input.min
p6eval rakudo 607ec4: OUTPUT«Max: 10␤Min: 2␤» 05:12
plobsing nymacro: you have a list of strings. 10 is the min by string comparison
nymacro plobsing, oh, true :) 05:13
cbk so putting in .map(+*) means what?
nymacro I had a misunderstanding of < > I guess
plobsing +$x => num-context($x)
+* => -> { +$_ } 05:14
TimToady see S02:3373, which rakudo doesn't implement yet 05:15
plobsing s/->//
dalek ecza/mm: 7facc7e | sorear++ | / (3 files):
[mm] implement loopback pointer generation
ecza/mm: d298d03 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
[mm] Start a new setting; fix package vars
ecza/mm: 9bec6d1 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
[mm] implement .HOW (thus .^isa and ~~)
TimToady <2 4 6 8 10> is *supposed* to return a list of integers 05:17
nymacro thanks for the clarification :>
cbk ok I was going crazy for a bit. I was thinking I had bad install of rakudo* I even tried removing and reinstalling it... :) 05:18
Thanks
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dalek osystem: ba2533f | moritz++ | projects.list:
add cache-memcached by cosimo++
 06:25
moritz_ phenny: tell cosimo perl6-cache-memcached added. You also have commit access to perl6/ecosystem on github now, so you can do it yourself next time
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when cosimo is around.
moritz_ good morning 06:28
tadzik good morning moritz_
sorear good morning
sorear wonders if he can do anything useful with ecosystem 06:29
dalek ecza/mm: c0b5aee | sorear++ | src/CSharpBackend.pm:
[mm] Implement conditional generation of spads
 06:31
ecza/mm: 8497b08 | sorear++ | src/CSharpBackend.pm:
[mm] implement non-cloned variables
tadzik bah, my cronjob on feather doesn't work for some reason 06:34
dalek osystem: c035df0 | tadzik++ | projects.list:
Added xxx-pm6
 06:36
moritz_ tadzik: I see you changed the format of projects.list; that brakes modules.perl6.org updating 06:42
tadzik oh
where is the repo? 06:43
moritz_ perl6 account
github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/ 06:44
tadzik yeah, I'm on it
moritz_ ++tadzik 06:45
tadzik hey, don't increment me too early! :)
moritz_ pre-increment for pre-karma 06:46
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tadzik moritz_: I made build-project-list.pl run, waiting for some results 07:02
moritz_ sh update-modules.perl6.org 07:05
malformed JSON string, neither array, object, number, string or atom, at character offset 0 ["ABC git://github.com..."] at /usr/share/perl5/JSON.pm line 154
ah, you didn't commit yet 07:06
I thought you committed, and waited for results from modules.perl6.org
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Ronnin21 www.rhinosgirls.com 07:18
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tadzik senses spam, still is tempted to click 07:26
moritz_: it ended with Wide character in syswrite at /usr/lib/perl5/5.12/File/Slurp.pm line 330. 07:27
wait, syswrite in File::Slurp? :/ 07:28
ah, write_file 07:29
moritz_ which means you need an encode_utf8 before it
tadzik rerunning. I never got my head around this encoding and decoding 07:31
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moritz_ perlgeek.de/en/article/encodings-and-unicode if you want to try :-) 07:34
tadzik Undefined subroutine &main::encode_utf8. Damn, couldn't it tell me before updating all this stuff? :( 07:37
moritz_ use Encode qw(encode_utf8) 07:38
tadzik what package is... right
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tadzik index.html and proto.json files generated 07:46
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dalek href="https://modules.perl6.org:">modules.perl6.org: 3b1e8d7 | tadzik++ | web/build-project-list.pl:
Fixed for non-JSON projects.list
 07:49
tadzik moritz_: lolipushed
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sorear suprisingly, the new metamodel seems to be much more frugal with MSIL 08:12
a --gen-app hello world program is only 207KB 08:13
was 300-350 before
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dalek ecza/mm: 912935b | sorear++ | src/C (3 files):
[mm] implement numeric lexical access
 08:39
ecza/mm: c5ed79f | sorear++ | / (5 files):
[mm] bring rest of SAFE setting over
ecza/mm: f5ecfd8 | sorear++ | / (5 files):
[mm] Fixes for CORE & binding to package vars
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bbkr rakudo: my @t="a",8; say [xx]@t #curious 09:34
p6eval rakudo 607ec4: ( no output )
bbkr hmm
rakudo: my @t="a",8; say [x]@t #curious
p6eval rakudo 607ec4: OUTPUT«aaaaaaaa␤»
bbkr \o/
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dalek kudo: 0bf6cbe | moritz++ | README:
update README about spectest repo

Closes RT #78084		 09:40
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masak oh hai, #perl6! 09:48
tadzik oh hai masask 09:52
sorear hello masak 09:54
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sorear masak: niecza/mm is finally to the point where I can compile and run 'use Test;' 10:02
masak sorear: wow, great news!
sorear++
sorear: what's the '/mm' part stand for? 10:03
sorear meta-model 10:04
masak ah, 'course.
sorear I don't really have a better name for it
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masak neither do I. 10:08
sorear standalone executables are about 40% smaller now btw 10:11
dalek ecza/mm: 465e4b7 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
[mm] Link GLOBAL/PROCESS to $*FOO
 10:13
ecza/mm: ba6543f | sorear++ | src/ (5 files):
[mm] Implement use statements
ecza/mm: 88fb2a5 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
[mm] implement sub classes, start sorting tests
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ggoebel sorear++ 10:15
karma sorear
aloha sorear has karma of 28.
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ggoebel perl6: 'karma sorear++'.say 10:16
p6eval pugs, rakudo 607ec4: OUTPUT«karma sorear++␤»
sorear buubot: karma sorear
buubot sorear: sorear has karma of 1051
masak buubot: karma masak
buubot masak: masak has karma of 846
ggoebel masak++ 10:17
masak buubot: karma au
buubot masak: au has karma of 25
ggoebel au++
masak au++
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sorear out 10:22
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tadzik buubot: karma tadzik 10:40
buubot tadzik: tadzik has karma of 80
tadzik nice
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jnthn Afternoon, 6ies. 10:48
nymacro evening good sir
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araujo wonders what would be a proper value to return from '+ 1 [ 2 ]' 11:11
tadzik std: + 1 [ 2 ] 11:12
p6eval std : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/VxYFv2X0qi line 1:␤------> + 1 [⏏ 2 ]␤ expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 116m␤»
tadzik me neither
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nymacro pastebin.com/DJ8sTdjm -- 540 characters alright for a Perl 6 blackjack? 11:19
pastebin.com/0sbqjAQD is ungolfed; maybe there is someway better I can do something though :> 11:21
asking only for the curiosity of someone's boredom (if such a boredom exists)
daxim I played two games, then it said Winner: -Inf and returned to the rakudo prompt 11:22
is it supposed to run forever?
nymacro nope
-Inf is no winner
tadzik you can ommit "use v6;" :)
nymacro it isn't the most verbal -- I'm trying to use a lot of shortcuts in P6, many of them normally wouldn't be used
tadzik if {} else {} can be changed to ?? !! :) 11:23
moritz_ sub pc(@a) -> you can use rotate() instead
daxim ♠♣♥♦ try whether these work, it's both shorter and more readable
moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; say @a.rotate(-1)
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«312␤»
tadzik @d=@d.pick(*) → @d.=pick(*)
or maybe even @d.=pick:*; 11:24
nymacro oh, awesome
tadzik std: @d.=pick:*;
p6eval std : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable @d is not predeclared at /tmp/kqsdyjzZRL line 1:␤------> @d⏏.=pick:*;␤Confused at /tmp/kqsdyjzZRL line 1:␤------> @d.=pick:⏏*;␤ expecting any of:␤ coloncircumfix␤ signature␤Parse failed␤FAILED
..00:01 11…
tadzik std: my @d; @d.=pick:*;
p6eval std : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/zYWCqubBt9 line 1:␤------> my @d; @d.=pick:⏏*;␤ expecting any of:␤ coloncircumfix␤ signature␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 117m␤»
tadzik nah, () is neede
moritz_ -> [$s, $r] { %values{$r} or $r } can be written as { %values{.[0]} or .[0] } 11:25
tadzik also, you can omit many parentheses
nymacro yeah, there were lots of precedence cases which I wasn't sure about
tadzik std: my @a; my @b; @aX@b 11:26
p6eval std : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable @aX is not predeclared at /tmp/WaWLxqlVgD line 1:␤------> my @a; my @b; @aX⏏@b␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/WaWLxqlVgD line 1:␤------> my @a; my @b; @aX⏏@b␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ bracketed infix␤ 11:27
..infi…
tadzik almost
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tadzik rakudo: my @a = [;]; @a[1][0] = 5; @a.perl.say 11:27
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«[[0], [5]]␤»
tadzik so, you can change [],[] to [;] :)
also, things like $_ ~ '' → $_ ~'' or even $_~'' 11:28
nymacro -> {%v{.[0]} or .[0]} it doesn't seem to like 11:29
tadzik say ~$_ can be just .say?
nymacro oh, should be .[1]
heh
still though; doesn't like
std: my @a = [1, 2, 3]; say @a; say ~@a; @a.say; 11:30
p6eval std : OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
nymacro rakudo: my @a = [1, 2, 3]; say @a; say ~@a; @a.say;
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤1 2 3␤1 2 3␤»
nymacro must be something to do with the scalar which doesn't put the space between when printing 11:31
tadzik what do you mean?
nymacro when i had say ~$_; it would print the array with no spaces between some of the elements 11:32
diamonds kinghearts 7
like that
tadzik hmm
how does the $_.perl.say look?
nymacro [["clubs", 7], ["diamonds", 2]] 11:33
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tadzik rakudo: say ~[["clubs", 7], ["diamonds", 2]] 11:33
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«clubs 7 diamonds 2␤»
tadzik weird then 11:34
nymacro rakudo: say [["clubs", 7], ["diamonds", 2]];
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«clubs 7 diamonds 2␤»
nymacro hmmm.
that is werid
I'm guessing it is to do with $_
and being "scalar"
heh, just got dealt 3 aces.. any(any(any(3, 13), any(13)), any(any(13), any())) 11:36
it doesn't quite like that 11:37
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nymacro but cheers guys! :) 11:42
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tadzik :) 11:43
nymacro it is down to 518 chars -- a few things can still be tweaked a little. But it is a pretty solid improvement ^^ 11:46
nymacro hi fives #perl6 11:47
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moritz_ high sixes in response :-) 11:48
nymacro ;) 11:49
tadzik nymacro: mind showing the new code? 11:50
nymacro git.nymacro.com/?p=h.git;a=blob_pla...p6;hb=HEAD 11:51
will need to change page to UTF-8 though
tadzik yeah
why are things like any(11) printed? 11:52
nymacro only when you have an ace
since the way it is implemented ace's value is 1|11 11:53
tadzik mhm
nymacro eg: any(6, 16) ♥ ace ♠ 5 11:54
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nymacro only problem is when it gets like this: any(16) ♥ king ♥ ace ♠ 5 11:55
I'm not absolutely sure; but I would assume that it should just be 16-- since there is only one possibility 11:57
I'm playing with fire; I'm not sure of the exact mechanics of it
masak nymacro: a junction with only one element does not de-promote itself to a non-junction. 12:00
I guess it could though, in the cases of 'any' and 'all'.
hm, and 'one', I think.
nymacro cheers :) 12:01
masonkramer are functions with typed formal parameters guaranteed to receive that type of parameter? foo ( Int $a, Badger %b ) - is %b guaranteed to be a Badger?
moritz_ masonkramer: %b would be an Associative[Badger] 12:02
or a subtype thereof
jnthn Furthermore, it would have to have declared itself as holding baders. 12:03
masonkramer NominalType[ValueType] ?
jnthn *badgers
pmichaud goo morning, #perl6
jnthn Not really in that sense of nominal.
pmichaud: eww, sticky!
masonkramer hehe
moritz_ hands pmichaud a 'd'
nymacro morgen
pmichaud badgers? BADGERS?! WE DON"T NEED NO STINKIN BADGERS!
pmichaud notices that his 'd' key is a little stuck.
jnthn
.oO( mushroom mushroom... )
 12:04
moritz_ masonkramer: it's just that 'my Int $a' and 'my Int %a' mean different things
my Int $a: $a can only hold values that ~~ Int
jnthn Associative is a parametric role.
pmichaud they both declare containers that hold Int :-)
moritz_ my Int %a: all(%a) ~~ Int
jnthn The one that means you can, using some key, get a value of whatever type ti's parameterized with.
tadzik nymacro: golfed down to 505 12:05
masak jnthn: aaaah snake!
nymacro tadzik, nice! This is by changing unneeded parentheses & using ternary instead of if?
[Coke] pmichaud: must be all that goo.
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[Coke] masak, jnthn: *thwap* 12:05
tadzik nymacro: suprisingly, changing if-else to ternary breaks stuff
nymacro: declaring hash as :key(value) is the biggest thing probably 12:06
nymacro ahhk, it wasn't just me
tadzik plus changing {$^a + $^b} to *+*
nymacro oh?
tadzik yep :)
masonkramer Thanks guys
nymacro whatever will consume arguments sequentially? 12:07
tadzik it generates a closure, taking 2 arguments
hold on, one more character and I'm below 500
nymacro ^^
pmichaud [Coke]: I am wondering if younger fingers are to blame, yes.
tadzik this ternary is annoying me
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pmichaud Bool.pick ?? "annoying" !! "still annoying" 12:09
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nymacro oh also tadzik! I got a redundant for loop. The first for loop can be moved to the second :) 12:14
tadzik nymacro: the last if-else can be a while, I think 12:15
nymacro yeah, it should be; at the moment is will sit if you press anything apart from 'h' :P 12:16
tadzik no, it can't
oh, maybe it can
yeah, got it 12:17
491 so far
nymacro nice :) 12:18
tadzik it'd be easier if I understood the code
nymacro you still got my un-golfed version?
tadzik and I think the arrow->block notation is just a sugar over something, so that can be golved too I think
nymacro git.nymacro.com/?p=h.git;a=blob_pla...p6;hb=HEAD
tadzik yep 12:19
nymacro ahhk :)
tadzik but what if the block takes 2 args and you're using only the second one?
nymacro yeah, I'm only using the second 12:20
since cards are [suit, rank], and we don't care what suit something is 12:21
as it doesn't change their face value
tadzik so, is there a way to do such thing w/o an arrow notation? 12:23
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moritz_ just bind to $_, and use .[1] 12:23
nymacro the .[1] notation probably is supposed to work; but it didn't
tadzik Unsupported use of do...while; in Perl 6 please use repeat...while at line 1, near ";\n" 12:24
nymacro moritz_, wouldn't $_ get set in the closure if it is passed something without a signature?
tadzik that's not golf-friendly :(
nymacro -> [$s, $r] { %values{$r} or $r } to -> { %values{.[1]} or .[1] } 12:25
moritz_ rakudo: for [1, 2], ['a', 'b'] { say .[1] }
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«2␤b␤»
tadzik worksforme
nymacro oh? Maybe I messed it up when I tried it earlier. Hm
oh, -> $_ { %values{.[1]} or .[1] } works 12:26
tadzik bah, I broke something and I dunno when 12:27
moritz_ nymacro: then it must some weird interaction with context
tadzik yeah, I'm getting more and more cards every hit
nymacro map(-> $_ { %values{.[1]} or .[1] }, @c) works, but map(-> { %values{.[1]} or .[1] }, @c) does not 12:28
tadzik or is that desirable?
nymacro tadzik, well, you should be getting 1 extra card every hit -- doing this until you sit or bust
moritz_ nymacro: you need to remove the initial arrow
tadzik oh, ok then
nymacro oh :)
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tadzik hmm 12:29
moritz_ -> always introduces a signature, so -> { ... } is explicitly expecting no argument
tadzik nymacro: gist.github.com/600888 does it work as it should?
moritz_ whereas { ... } has a $_ = OUTER::$_
tadzik 480 chars
moritz_ or so
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nymacro moritz_, ahh, thanks. I haven't read much of the synopses; lots of things I'm probably using falsely 12:31
Juerd I find -> confusing when it doesn't look infixish
e.g. for @foos -> $foo { ... } is clear, but foo(-> { ... }) is not.
tadzik same here 12:32
Juerd I don't really understand why it's preferred, instead of sub (...) { ... } 12:33
nymacro well; normally that is probably preferred. But we're golfing! :)
tadzik whitespace-sensitiveness is killing us anyway
or not 12:34
Juerd I continue to see -> much more often than unnamed "sub" in much of the p6 code out there
Can't be a golf thing.
moritz_ Juerd: which code "out there" are you talkinga about? modules?
evalbot lines on IRC are almost always golfed too 12:35
Juerd Things I see here, including blog posts and perhaps rosetta
tadzik alright, my ideas are gone at 480 characters
nymacro I'm at 491 characters at the moment
tadzik ' or ' => || 12:36
I still feel like the main loop can be golfed down
masak trippy. twitter.com/lloyda2/status/25779102812
nymacro tadzik, this is my first attempt at golf. I'm flailing in the dark with most things 12:37
pmichaud '->' is different 'sub' in that the latter is a Routine, while the former is a Block 12:38
tadzik nymacro: I think that it shouldn't just add cards forever, it should stop when the overall value is over 21
nymacro that is what mine does
tadzik well, mine does not :) 12:39
nymacro if pv($_) > 21 { say $_ ~ ' is over 21'; last }
is the check for bust
tadzik queen ♥ king ♥ king ♣ 6 ♥ 6 ♣ queen ♦ 8 ♥ 10 ♥ jack ♣ king ♦ 2 ♣ 7 ♣ queen ♠ queen ♣ 9 ♥ ace ♣ 5 ♠ 5 ♣ jack ♠ 8 ♣
(h) hit (s) sit?
:)
nymacro haha ^^
tadzik yeah, it should be
I guess I broke b()
nymacro I've just been making incremental changes and testing to ensure I don't break it
pmichaud nymacro: did you see the version I did for calculating cards and values? 12:40
nymacro nope
pmichaud looks
www.pmichaud.com/2009/pres/oscon-pe...lide5.html
the last line shows an easy way to calculate the value of a hand 12:41
masak my %points = @deck Z @( (2..10, 10, 10, 10, 11) >>xx>> 4 ); 12:43
why is the casting needed?
nymacro pmichaud, interesting
pmichaud might've been needed to avoid a rakudo bug
(this was 2009, after all)
masak anyway, pmichaud++
I've seen it many times before, but each time I get happy seeing it. :) 12:44
tadzik now I copied your b() nymacro and it still returns 0 for me. Weird
nymacro tadzik, did you break anything in your loop?
tadzik nymacro: the loop itself works. But even bare 'say b($_)' prints 0
moritz_ rakudo: say(2, 3, 3, 4) Z ((1, 2) >>xx>> 4)).perl
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near ").perl"␤»
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tadzik weird 12:45
masak rakudo: my @suits = <♣ ♢ ♡ ♠>; my @ranks = 2..10, <J Q K A>; my @deck = @ranks X~ @suits; my %points = @deck Z @( (2..10, 10, 10, 10, 11) >>xx>> 4 ); say %points.perl
moritz_ rakudo: say (2, 3, 3, 4 Z ((1, 2) >>xx>> 4)).perl
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«{"2♣" => 2, "2♢" => 2, "2♡" => 2, "2♠" => 2, "3♣" => 3, "3♢" => 3, "3♡" => 3, "3♠" => 3, "4♣" => 4, "4♢" => 4, "4♡" => 4, "4♠" => 4, "5♣" => 5, "5♢" => 5, "5♡" => 5, "5♠" => 5, "6♣" => 6, "6♢" => 6, "6♡" => 6, "6♠" => 6, "7♣" => 7, "7♢" => 7, "7♡" => 7, "7♠" => 7, "8♣" => 8,
.."8♢" =…
rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«(2, 1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 4, 1)␤»
masak rakudo: my @suits = <♣ ♢ ♡ ♠>; my @ranks = 2..10, <J Q K A>; my @deck = @ranks X~ @suits; my %points = @deck Z ( (2..10, 10, 10, 10, 11) >>xx>> 4 ); say %points.perl
moritz_ rakudo: say (2, 3, 3, 4 Z=> ((1, 2) >>xx>> 4)).perl
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«{"2♣" => 2, "2♢" => 2, "2♡" => 2, "2♠" => 2, "3♣" => 3, "3♢" => 3, "3♡" => 3, "3♠" => 3, "4♣" => 4, "4♢" => 4, "4♡" => 4, "4♠" => 4, "5♣" => 5, "5♢" => 5, "5♡" => 5, "5♠" => 5, "6♣" => 6, "6♢" => 6, "6♡" => 6, "6♠" => 6, "7♣" => 7, "7♢" => 7, "7♡" => 7, "7♠" => 7, "8♣" => 8,
.."8♢" =…
rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«(2 => 1, 3 => 1, 3 => 1, 4 => 1)␤»
masak seems the casting is not needed (anymore).
moritz_ rakudo: say (2, 3, 3, 4 Z=> (1, 2 Xxx 4)).perl
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«(2 => 1, 3 => 1, 3 => 1, 4 => 1)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (2, 3, 3, 4 Z=> ((1, 2) Xxx 4)).perl 12:46
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«(2 => 1, 3 => 1, 3 => 1, 4 => 1)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (2, 3, 3, 4 Z=> ((1, 2) Xxx 2)).perl 12:47
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«(2 => 1, 3 => 1, 3 => 2, 4 => 2)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (2, 3, 3, 4 Z=> (1, 2 Xxx 2)).perl
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«(2 => 1, 3 => 1, 3 => 2, 4 => 2)␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say (<a a b b c c d d> Z=> ((1,2) Xxx 2).perl
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say (<a a b b c c d d> Z=> ((1,2) Xxx 2)).perl
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«("a" => 1, "a" => 1, "b" => 2, "b" => 2)␤»
moritz_ Xxx is a bit shorter than >>xx>> :-)
pmichaud yes, but it didn't give the correct results 12:48
moritz_ (and new too)
pmichaud I lost my c's and d's
moritz_ try Xxx 4
pmichaud rakudo: say (<a a b b c c d d> Z=> ((1,2) Xxx 4)).perl
nymacro pmichaud, actually; does your code handle ace as also a value of 1?
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«("a" => 1, "a" => 1, "b" => 1, "b" => 1, "c" => 2, "c" => 2, "d" => 2, "d" => 2)␤»
nymacro it doesn't seem to
masak just wait until the social media find out that Perl 6 has an Xxx operator! 12:49
pmichaud nymacro: no, but it can easily handle ace as 1 by changing the "11" to "11|1"
moritz_ masak: :-)
nymacro :)
pmichaud rakudo: say (<a a b b c c d d> Z=> ((1,2,3,4) Xxx 2)).perl
masak pmichaud: that way lies only grief, if you ask me.
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«(timeout)("a" => 1, "a" => 1, "b" => 2, "b" => 2, "c" => 3, "c" => 3, "d" => 4, "d" => 4)␤»
masak (using junctions that way)
nymacro I won't use this stuff though; I'm not quite sure what >>xx>> does :) 12:50
pmichaud masak: I agree -- I was just following what nymacro already had for value of ace
masak nod
pmichaud it's fine as long as you're only asking for possible point totals
masak guess so.
pmichaud but one oes get into trouble with things like if $points > 21 { ... } 12:51
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moritz_ note that this is a good example of why junctions shouldn't be abused as sets 12:51
right
pmichaud *does
moritz_ it wants to be all($points) > 21
but wins if any($points) == 21 12:52
s:firstline/wants/wants to abort/
pmichaud and I'm not sure the all() junction works out, anyway 12:53
rakudo: say all(13|24) > 21;
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«all(any(Bool::False, Bool::True))␤»
moritz_ pmichaud: it would need to be a pure all() junction
which is why it's a problem :-) 12:54
and $points should really be a set or list, not a junction
pmichaud right.
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nymacro My code seems to break if I try to change face cards to single letters 12:57
as to why; I'm confused
my @r=2..10,<ja qu ki ac>;my %v=ja=>10,qu=>10,ki=>10,ac=>1|11; workds 13:00
but my @r=2..10,<j q k a>;my %v=j=>10,q=>10,k=>10,a=>1|11; does not.
pmichaud maybe a space after the 'q'
so it doesn't think it's a q() construct.
nymacro oh
nope 13:01
still does not work
pmichaud maybe quotes around the q
nymacro ahh, works now :)
I'll need to look up the exact syntax of q 13:02
pmichaud quotes shouldn't be needed there... but rakudo's predictor isn't as good as STD's.
moritz_ std: q=> 3
p6eval std : OUTPUT«ok 00:01 115m␤»
moritz_ rakudo: q=> 3
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: ( no output )
moritz_ rakudo: say (q=> 3).perl
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«"q" => 3␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (q => 3).perl 13:03
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«"q" => 3␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (q=>3).perl
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«"q" => 3␤»
nymacro rakudo: say (a=>1,q=>3).perl;
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«("a" => 1, "q" => 3)␤»
moritz_ confused
pmichaud rakudo: say (j=>10,q=>10,k=>10).perl;
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«("j" => 10, Bool::False)␤»
moritz_ oh
only if another = is present 13:04
moritz_ submits rakudobug
masak indeed. moritz_++
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pmichaud std: say (j=>10,q=>10,k=>10).perl 13:05
p6eval std : OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
pmichaud well, that's still valid syntax I guess -- would need to see the parse
std: say (j=>10,q=>10,k==10).perl
p6eval std : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'k' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:02 118m␤»
pmichaud right, looks fine to me. 13:06
nymacro just a precedence thing? 13:07
pmichaud mainly, yes.
=> is supposed to autoquote its lhs... but rakudo doesn't always get that right
moritz_ thinks it's more about LTM than precedence
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moritz_ submitted as [perl #78096] 13:09
nymacro tadzik, got to 455 characters
moritz_, at least something productive has come of this endeavour :)
tadzik oh nice
nymacro tadzik, but this is changin queen to q etc.
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tadzik ah 13:10
nymacro so yours is probably still superior; albeit buggy 13:11
moritz_
.oO( it's easy to give the wrong answer in O(1), and with few characters)
 13:13
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pmichaud rakudo: my @deck = comb('23456789TJQKA') X~ comb('CDHS'); say @deck.perl; 13:14
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &comb␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/0xksiKgSWu␤»
masak oh, you wanted the *correct* answer! what are you, some kind of purist? :) 13:15
pmichaud oh
rakudo: my @deck = '23456789TJQKA'.comb X~ 'CDHS'.comb; say @deck.perl;
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«["2C", "2D", "2H", "2S", "3C", "3D", "3H", "3S", "4C", "4D", "4H", "4S", "5C", "5D", "5H", "5S", "6C", "6D", "6H", "6S", "7C", "7D", "7H", "7S", "8C", "8D", "8H", "8S", "9C", "9D", "9H", "9S", "TC", "TD", "TH", "TS", "JC", "JD", "JH", "JS", "QC", "QD", "QH", "QS", "KC", "KD",
.."KH",…
pmichaud &comb appears to be missing, for any masak++ that wants to file another rakudobug :-) 13:16
masak files another rakudobug
pmichaud our List multi comb ( Regex $matcher, Str $input, Int $limit = Inf ) 13:17
(from S32-str)
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masak by the way, I relish the thought of getting karma from being referred to as a concept. :) 13:17
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pmichaud I think of it more as a type object, or placeholder :-) 13:18
masak $^masak
pmichaud right, but it needs the ++ sigil :)
masak or Musak :P
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moritz_ you know that sigils go up front? 13:19
so it's a ++masak :-)
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pmichaud en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzak # :-) 13:19
masak seems to spend a surprising amount of time on brand awareness lately
not sure where this'll lead...
tadzik nymacro: I still don't know what's broken :) 13:20
pmichaud afk for a short while 13:21
nymacro :)
tadzik Maybe I'll take your new code and golf it, if it works
ah, whatever :)
golfed: ah, * :)
TiMBuS rakudo: my @deck = 2..9,<T J Q K A> X~ <C D H S>; say @deck.perl; 13:22
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«["2C", "2D", "2H", "2S", "3C", "3D", "3H", "3S", "4C", "4D", "4H", "4S", "5C", "5D", "5H", "5S", "6C", "6D", "6H", "6S", "7C", "7D", "7H", "7S", "8C", "8D", "8H", "8S", "9C", "9D", "9H", "9S", "TC", "TD", "TH", "TS", "JC", "JD", "JH", "JS", "QC", "QD", "QH", "QS", "KC", "KD",
.."KH",…
tadzik rakudo: say "ah, {*.WHAT}
nymacro tadzik, git.nymacro.com/?p=h.git;a=blob_pla...p6;hb=HEAD
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say \"ah, {"␤»
tadzik rakudo: say "ah, {*.WHAT}"
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«ah, Whatever()␤»
masak :)
rakudo: say "ah, ", *.WHAT.perl.lc, '!" 13:23
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say \"ah, \""␤»
masak erg
rakudo: say "ah, ", *.WHAT.perl.lc, '!'
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«ah, whatever!␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say (*).elems; # curious 13:26
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«_block124␤»
pmichaud I didn't expect _that_.
seems to me that * in parens shouldn't curry. 13:27
jnthn rakudo: say *.elems
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«_block124␤»
pmichaud I do expect *.elems to curry, yes.
jnthn pmichaud: I suspect it does curry for the same reason * * (* - *) curries 13:28
pmichaud jnthn: that's actually different
jnthn (that is, in the implementation)
(not in the spec)
pmichaud (* - *) is a WhateverCode
not the same as (*)
jnthn I agree, it's just from what I remember of the impl I could see how the two may just get confused.
pmichaud I suspect it's an issue with things being promoted out of the circumfix:<( )> 13:29
jnthn Right.
pmichaud rakudo: my $x = *; say $x.elems; # what I was really interested in
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«1␤» 13:30
jnthn :-)
pmichaud following the ",*" discussion, I'm wondering if that should be Inf
jnthn At least the = doesn't curry ;-)
pmichaud and: my $x = *; say $x[1000].WHAT; # should this also produce a Whatever?
moritz_ pmichaud: I'd expect ,Inf to append a single Inf numeric literal 13:31
whereas * is more magic
pmichaud moritz_: that's not what I meant
I'm wondering if Whatever.elems should return Inf instead of 1
moritz_ ah
moritz_ has no idea 13:32
pmichaud i.e., if the term "*" treated like a list actually acts like "Whatever xx Inf"
especially since we don't have an easy way to write * xx Inf :-P
best we can do is: my $x = *; $x xx Inf
13:33 bluescreen left
pmichaud (unless we fix the parens issue, which I'm not sure is spec) 13:33
masak haven't seen anything about that. 13:34
shouldn't parens mostly be semantically transparent?
pmichaud yes, but *.xyz is a syntactic construct
masak fair enuf.
moritz_ cosimo: my.opera.com/cstrep/blog/2010/09/24...e-to-utf-8 accidentally turns some parens into a smile (search for 'use Encode') 13:35
tadzik nymacro: 444 and works :) 13:39
nymacro nice :)
masak tries to avoid that kind of automatic substitution in blog post
don't like it in Word-like programs either.
feels like the wrong kind of "intelligence".
tadzik even shorter if Winner and results is in one line
moritz_ masak: same here; it's always the first thing I switch off, if possible
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daxim I really dislike the ahinea article, it rubs me all the wrong way 13:43
masak moritz_: one especially bad case of such substitution made a little icon of the ';' at the end of (autogenerated) HTML entities and any subsequent ')'. resulting in a broken entity and a winking smiley. 13:44
tadzik nymacro: gist.github.com/601011 441 and I'm out of ideas :)
nymacro nice 13:45
tadzik star today?
moritz_ tadzik: my @d = map { ... }, ...; @d.=pick(*) 13:46
tadzik: can be condensed to my @d = map(....).pick(*)
tadzik right
moritz_ saves 2 strokes :-)
tadzik 438 here 13:47
so even 3 :)
moritz_ $_~' is over 21' could be "$_ is over 21"
1 saved
tadzik :) 13:48
moritz_ .&b is shorter than b($_)
tadzik oh, I didn't know that one :)
moritz_ rakudo: sub u($x) { uc $x }; for <a b c> { .&u.say } 13:49
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«A␤B␤C␤»
gottreu is this for rosetta code, or are we just practicing our putts?
tadzik I just got another one
say b($_); say ~$_ → say b($_),"\n$_";
pmichaud rakudo: for <a b c> { .uc.say }
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«A␤B␤C␤»
pmichaud still shorter -- don't need the u() :-P
moritz_ slaps pmichaud, just a little bit 13:50
tadzik so 424
how does .&b work? 13:51
it's an idiom for b($_) specifically?
moritz_ it's actually $_.$coderef 13:52
jnthn oh wow, neat idiom :-)
That's...disgusting. I love it. :-)
moritz_ and exploits that methods are really just subs with invocant as first parameter 13:53
but the invocant isn't really special
pmichaud jnthn: TimToady had the same reaction, iirc :) 13:55
13:55 tadzik left
pmichaud but it does mean that where we had once wanted "fallback methods" we don't really need them. 13:56
for example, sub prime($x) { ... }; if $y.&prime { ... }
masak exactly. 13:57
pmichaud or, more likely: sub prime($x) { ... }; .say if .&prime for @list; # or something like that
masak since I became aware of that idiom, I've been using it all over.
it's a real freedom to be able to method-ize subs like that. 13:58
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moritz_ pmichaud: I think the real reason for fallback methods were non-lifted, overloaded operators 13:59
pmichaud moritz_: .prime was the poster candidate for fallback methods. 14:03
masak someone on reddit suggests that we put gil.di.uminho.pt/users/smash/rakudo-bench.html on the rakudo.org status page. 14:04
pmichaud do we have a way of generating those and keeping them up to date?
if no, then I say don't do it until we do :) 14:05
masak good point.
moritz_ speaking of the status page, we should remove that spectest graph
pmichaud +1 14:07
moritz_ pmichaud: it seems the last version of R* checked out a copy of the spectets via svn 14:08
it would be great to avoid that in this release
pmichaud I can bundle a copy of the tests, like we do for the compiler distribution. 14:09
moritz_ +1
masak +1 14:10
PerlJam good morning #perl6
14:10 mavrc left
moritz_ morning' 6Jam 14:10
PerlJam anything new or exciting happen while I haven't been paying too close attention the last week or so? 14:11
oh! When's the R* release?
moritz_ today 14:12
jnthn decommutes
PerlJam ah
moritz_ rakudo: .so.say for 0, 1
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤Bool::True␤» 14:13
masak PerlJam: 'series operator' is now called 'sequence operator'
moritz_ warn 1 # note the line number
rakudo: warn 1 # note the line number
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«1 in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/1bpRq0Vi2f␤»
moritz_ (amd file name)
rakudo: 1 + Any # a non-setting line number 14:14
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/CRq42b2jaH␤»
masak PerlJam: also, we're all crazy about the new idiom $some-obj.&some-sub()
PerlJam masak: good to note. I'll probably continue to mistakenly say "series op" for a while though :)
masak PerlJam: oh, me too. 14:15
PerlJam masak: you could have stopped at "we're all crazy" ;-)
masak PerlJam: I've recently been looking at this old blog post, where I quote you saying to me "clearly, you're insane" :P strangelyconsistent.org/blog/the-ta...edy-on-irc
(I did deserve it, that time) 14:16
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PerlJam We all have some measure of insanity otherwise we wouldn't believe in Perl 6. The trick is to foster the "good insanity" (aka genius) while eschewing the "bad insanity" 14:19
nymacro this is true; I don't know anyone worth knowing who isn't at least slightly insane 14:20
masak lately I haven't been able to connect the gears turning in my brain to actual changes in my existing Perl 6 code. may or may not be related to actually getting more $WORK done lately. 14:22
moritz_ straw poll: who has met a normal person?
PerlJam normal to what surface? :) 14:25
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masak PerlJam: *groan* 14:29
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mathw normal by what standard? 14:30
moritz_ ISO-1337-1 :-) 14:31
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masak moritz_: I take your point fully, but I'm not sure "normal" is such an abstract, non-instantiable concept far enough outside of certain circles... say, geekdom, or academia. 14:33
gottreu DSM-IV-TR ?
14:34 patspam left
masak might be we're simply blessed with the relative absence of normal people 'round here :P 14:34
PerlJam depends.
moritz_ masak: hmm. My mother is a psychologist, and she is often asked "am I normal?". It made me think about possible answers 14:35
14:35 mavrc left
PerlJam If we start with the premise that TimToady it normal ... it's the rest of the world that's insane. 14:35
s/it/is/
oops, s:2nd/it/is/ actually
masak moritz_: I agree that it's more of a fuzzy ideal. the question is more whether it's something a person consciously/unconsciously strives for or not.
Camelia "super cute". twitter.com/dcbaok/status/25789177100 14:36
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PerlJam squeak has a mascot? 14:36
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masak PerlJam: www.squeak.org/ 14:37
looks like a cat.
PerlJam yes, I'm looking at it
moritz_ I guess many people would answer "no" to the question whether they are "normal", and be shocked when asked if they are abnormal :-)
masak oh wait. it's a mouse!
PerlJam and it does look like a cat rather than a mouse to me too
masak (of course, duh)
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masak moritz_: every time I hear the word "abnormal", I think of Young Frankenstein... :) 14:38
moritz_ :-) 14:39
masak www.imdb.com/title/tt0072431/quotes?qt0504329
whoa -- someone on github read ".pick and .roll" as ".rick and .roll" -- how did we ever miss that? :P 14:42
moritz_ didn't, but doesn't particular care about that meme
14:43 mavrc joined
masak nod. I'm not sure I grok that meme, actually. 14:43
moritz_ it's something I only saw at xkcd, and occasionally parrotted by others 14:44
nymacro never gonna give you up...
masak reads up using knowyourmeme.com/memes/rickroll 14:46
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moritz_ somehow that still fails to fascinate me 14:49
nymacro yeah, it was never truly funny 14:51
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masak watch out for the False Memes in our midst. 14:53
moritz_ wolf meme in sheep's skin? 14:56
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masak rakudo: sub wolf { say "om nom nom" }; sub sheep { say "baah!"; callsame }; &wolf.wrap(&sheep); wolf() 14:59
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«baah!␤om nom nom␤» 15:00
masak rakudo: sub wolf { say "om nom nom" }; sub sheep { say "baah!"; callsame }; say (&wolf.wrap(&sheep)).WHAT 15:01
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
masak Int? o.O
rakudo: sub wolf { say "om nom nom" }; sub sheep { say "baah!"; callsame }; say (&wolf.wrap(&sheep))
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«2␤»
masak consults ze spec
moritz_ isn't it callnext() ?
masak there's no callnext 15:02
moritz_ hm
nextsame
masak there's callsame, nextsame, callwith and nextwith
if it's last, it doesn't really matter, does it?
except maybe in how the call stack looks along the way.
TimToady and lastcall
15:03 daxim joined
moritz_ ... to brooklyn? 15:03
TimToady rakudo: say 42.so
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
TimToady rakudo: say 42.not
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«Method 'not' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/M6CA84i5kB␤»
TimToady wanted .=not for a rosettacode... 15:04
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masak S06:2685 says "The call to C<.wrap> returns a unique handle that has a C<restore> method that will undo the wrapping" 15:04
colomon .=not ?
masak hence, it cannot be an Int.
masak submits rakudobug
moritz_ TimToady: patching it in right now... it'll just take hours to complete the spectest run :-)
masak don't we have a TODO RT ticket for .not already? 15:05
TimToady oh, well, then, we can't fix it yet
colomon ah, .not
moritz_ masak: I think we had one, and I closed it over-eagerly
masak huh.
moritz_ masak: it covered .so and .not, and I implemented .so
masak huh.
colomon is still very slow on the uptake this morning 15:06
masak doesn't sound like you, moritz_.
TimToady the .not was .so.so
masak :)
moritz_ masak: if you knew me a bit better in real life, you wouldn't say that :-)
ss/real life/meatspace/ # #perl6 is real too 15:07
masak was just going to point that out. :)
TimToady s/meatspace/carnisphere/
moritz_ :-)
masak moritz_: the only thing I'm surprised at when we meet is that you have a German accent. you don't have that on IRC :)
TimToady or may "somasphere" would be less root-mixy
masak likes "somasphere" 15:08
very Huxley.
moritz_ TimToady: "somasphere" makes me think of the drug... right
masak: :-)
masak: next time I'll try harder to dig out my scottish accent :-)
masak och aye!
moritz_ just a wee bit of accent with rolled rrrrs, and mis-pronounced vowels 15:10
t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/instants-and-durations.t sometimes fails for me 15:11
dalek kudo: bd836a4 | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
give TimToday++ his Mu.not
 15:13
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mfollett Which synopsis is .so covered in? 15:18
moritz_ probably S02
or S32/$something
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colomon moritz_: why the grammar change for .not? 15:21
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mfollett moritz_: thanks 15:21
moritz_ colomon: ho, I didn't mean to commit that. Thanks for telling me
moritz-- # git commit -a without checking git diff first 15:22
colomon review++
masak colomon++
moritz_ as you might guess, I have experimented with parsing ss/// 15:24
parsing it is easy; doing something with it in a non-convoluted manner is not
dalek kudo: 6241883 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
Revert accidental grammar change from bd836a4a

moritz--, and colomon++ for noticing		 15:25
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masak here's a thing I didn't know before today about RSS and Atom feeds: most blogs don't keep a full history around in them, but only the last 10 or 20 entries. 15:43
while the remark might *sound* off-topic, recall that I'm currently writing a static blog generator in Perl 6. :P
moritz_ btw there's a concepttual problem with RSS, and a good reason to prefer Atom 15:45
it's that RSS has no way to declare the mime type of the content
masak good news: I'm going with Atom already.
moritz_ so the client has to guess if it's HTML or text
good
masak I have heard something similar at some point.
the only thing that seems to keep RSS in business is inertia and cargo-culting. 15:46
moritz_ is guilty of both
15:46 LionMadeOfLions left
moritz_ decommute& 15:47
szbalint masak++ # I don't want to rant about how RSS is broken and why, but it annoys me greatly.
masak no need to rant, I think. just use Atom.
szbalint moritz_: I ran into the mime type issue when refactoring the IronMan feed. 15:48
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jnthn masak: ooc, is there still an unwrap method spec'd? 15:57
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daxim Atom is able to older entries in a seperate feed, donchaknow 15:57
jnthn doesn't recall restore method on handles at all from when he last worked on wrap stuff, which was, granted, a year or so ago.
masak jnthn: don't know. but (as I wrote in the RT ticket), there's a .restore method spec'd on the handle returned from .wrap
jnthn: which IMO makes more sense than a generic .unwrap method 15:58
jnthn Well, the .unwrap method took the handle.
masak checks the spec
jnthn But yeah, if you have the handle it probably does make some more sense.
daxim RFC 5005
jnthn Maybe a spec twiddle. :-)
daxim this is for you, moritz_
masak jnthn: there's only a fossil left in S32/Callable 15:59
I say ditch .unwrap completely, and let the user keep the handle if she wants to unwrap later.
16:00 mkramer left
jnthn wfm 16:00
Having both feels a bit surplus to requirements.
masak also, the greater safety of handles and .restore kinda makes .unwrap feel like a reckless alternative. 16:01
.unwrap is a steamroller to .restore's origami :) 16:02
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jnthn masak: I don't think there was ever a handleless .unwrap that assumed "just do the last wrapper" but maybe there was. :-) 16:04
If there was, it's certainliy the way to fragility though.
masak oh, ok. maybe I'm imagining that, then. 16:05
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masak anyway, .restore seems sufficient. 16:05
PerlJam What about having an .unwrap with .restore's semantics (i.e., rename .restore to .unwrap)? 16:06
the wrap/unwrap dichotomy seems better than wrap/restore to me
masak wfm 16:07
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masak though the natural objection would probably be that it's not the handle that's being .unrap'd 16:07
s/unrap/unwrap/
PerlJam true
what type is the handle? 16:09
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masak Int, apparently :P 16:10
PerlJam and what else can you do with a handle besides .restore/
?
masak no idea. 16:11
nothing comes to mind.
.unrestore, perhaps... :) 16:12
or should that be, .rewrap?
s/,//
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masak see you at #phasers. nom & 16:22
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PerlJam If the do property of Routines was an array where only the "top" item was actually executed, then we wouldn't need .wrap or .restore and I think callsame, callwith, nextsame, nextwith would just work 16:30
er ... that's not right.
but something like that could be made to work perhaps 16:31
moritz_ then Routine.wrap and .unwrap would just delegate to .shift and .unshift on the array 16:33
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jnthn PerlJam: I did in 6model play with exactly that. 16:41
Every invokable thingy had a think to invoke + a candidate list.
*thing
Not sure if it'll stick or not. 16:42
(Quite possibly not, but it's an interesting idea to play with.)
sjohnson yo jnthn how goes it today
jnthn sjohnson: I'm a little sleepy but otherwise fine. :-)
You?
sjohnson good just obsessing about crpytography 16:43
my new obsession
:)
TimToady rakudo: False || die "oops" # can't believe this still doesn't short circuit...
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«oops␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/p2LvF9It1g␤»
TimToady er... 16:45
rakudo: True || die "oops"
jnthn wtf
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: ( no output )
moritz_ :-)
TimToady nevermind
jnthn :-)
moritz_ I think it's // that doesn't short circuit
TimToady is a space case this morning
jnthn hands TimToady++ another cup of coffee
moritz_ rakudo: 1 // say("foohoo")
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: ( no output )
jnthn I'm pretty sure // does
moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 1; $x //= say("foohoo")
jnthn It's the //= form that I think we have bovva with.
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«foohoo␤» 16:46
moritz_ right
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moritz_ rakudo: my $x = hash <Jan Feb Mar> Z 1..12; say $x.perl 16:53
p6eval rakudo 0bf6cb: OUTPUT«{"Jan" => 1, "Feb" => 2, "Mar" => 3}␤»
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dalek rixel: f40e10c | diakopter++ | sprixel/src/compiler/ (2 files):
bit of cleanup
 17:14
ash_ jnthn: do you why you'd get a P6Invocation on accident? or what to do with a P6Invocation? 17:17
> class A { method b { 1 } }; A.can('b');
===SORRY!===
get_string() not implemented in class 'P6Invocation'
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jnthn ash_: Generally, invoke it or iterate with it. 17:19
I'm not sure that A.can('b') can return the method.
Though it probably wants to return something that can invoke the first candidate in the result set.
ash_ should that throw an error or something then?
jnthn Well, it shouldn't do whatever it's doing there...
moritz_ jnthn: why can't it return the same object that .^methods.grep($some_test) would return? 17:20
jnthn That'd return a list.
However, it'd probably not give you any deferal semantics.
ash_ rakudo: class A { method b { 1 } }; say A.^methods.grep: { $_ eq 'b' }
moritz_ then slap a .[0] on
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«b␤» 17:21
moritz_ rakudo: class A { method b { 1 } }; say A.^methods.grep('b').[0].WHAT
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«Method()␤»
jnthn moritz_: That is tempting.
But it may mean folks don't get deferal.
moritz_ deferal? 17:22
jnthn nextsame and friends.
They rely on there being a dispatcher providing the candidate list.
moritz_ hm, right
jnthn Just grepping out a bunch of method objects and then invoking the first one does not make the rest of them the candidate list.
In fact, doing a sub-ish invocation of a method object is probably never going to give you working deferal. 17:23
moritz_ right
jnthn Because it totally bypasses running the method dispatcher.
ash_ does that mean .^methods is doing something wrong too? or that .can needs to be smarter?
jnthn ash_: No, .^methods is fine
Well, we could choose that .can ain't all that smart either.
"If you want to do a method dispatch, well, do one dammit." 17:24
moritz_ more to the point, I'd love to .can to return something that can do deferal, and internally wrap the candidate list
jnthn Well, yeah
P6invocation is basically a curried method dispatchrer.
moritz_ it's not always that easy
ash_ well
also
rakudo: say "Str".can('split')
works
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«split␤»
jnthn e.g. invoking it is not *really* invoking the first thing in the list.
It's invoking a method dispatcher, which in turn runs the first thing in the list. 17:25
ash_ it only gives the P6Invocation when you use a class you make (i think)
jnthn Oh, I know what's going on...
It provides .Str but probably not a get_string v-table.
ash_ rakudo: my $a = "Str".can('say'); $a.()
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 1␤ in 'Mu::say' at line 1228:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/jRv4l9olVw␤»
jnthn ash_: Needs an invocant passing still. 17:26
moritz_ right; lonely .say misses its invcant!
ash_ rakudo: my $a = "Str".can('say'); $a.assuming("Str"); $a.();
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 1␤ in 'Mu::say' at line 1228:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/iBT46ukbj2␤»
diakopter rakudo: my $a = "Str".can('say'); $a.($a)
ash_ hmmm
jnthn
.oO( I wonder if we're actually going to need a v-table of curried dispatchers... )
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«say␤»
jnthn All this curry talk is making me hungry. 17:27
dalek rixel: cf36d17 | diakopter++ | sprixel/src/compiler/ (2 files):
rename temporarily; stupid TortoiseGit (or git) not handling Windows case-insensitive filenames.
rixel: ae54de5 | diakopter++ | sprixel/src/compiler/Env (2 files):
rename it back
ash_ lol
jnthn diakopter: Heh, glad it wasn't just me who coudln't find a better way... :-) 17:28
ash_ curry is great, i like thai green curry, but there aren't any restaurants near by with it :-(
jnthn Aww.
diakopter jnthn: you use TortoiseGit?
jnthn diakopter: No, command line git
diakopter oh
jnthn diakopter: But when faced with the same problem, I ended up doing the same.
e.g. I think it's an underlying git on Windows thing rather than Tortoise's fault. 17:29
diakopter yeah
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ash_ jnthn: so you know why some methods don't work with .can? just curios, i filed a bug report for it too 17:32
i tried tracking it down, but it was a bit beyond me
jnthn Well, the error you saw is probably that get_string ain't implemented in P6invocation 17:34
(in src/pmc/
The deeper problem is that it's a PMC rather than a real Perl 6 object.
It's harder to do too much about at the moment. 17:35
ash_ rakudo: say 'foo'.can('split'); # works though, is that not also a P6Invocation?
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«split␤»
ash_ i guess my confusion is why do some class methods work and other not?
moritz_ maybe it's related to classes defined in PIR vs. Perl 6? 17:38
rakudo: say Cool.new.can('Num')
p6eval rakudo 624188: ( no output )
moritz_ rakudo: say Cool.can('Num') 17:39
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«Num␤»
moritz_ or type object vs. instance?
rakudo: class A { method b() { } }; say A.new.can('b')
p6eval rakudo 624188: ( no output )
ash_ rakudo: class A { method b { 1 } }; say A.new.can('b');
p6eval rakudo 624188: ( no output )
ash_ lol
oops
rakudo: class A { method b { 1 } }; my $a = A.new; say $a.can('b').($a); 17:40
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«1␤»
ash_ rakudo: class A { method b { 1 } }; my $a = A.new; say $a.can('b')
p6eval rakudo 624188: ( no output )
ash_ hmm
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sorear good * #perl6! 18:07
colomon o/ 18:08
moritz_ \ö
colomon moritz_: what's that on your head?
moritz_ colomon: bear ears :-) 18:09
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dalek rixel: 8b0285b | diakopter++ | sprixel/ (3 files):
delete old Messages.Designer.cs
 18:33
rixel: e6cc675 | diakopter++ | sprixel/codegen/RunSharp/Properties/Messages.Designer.cs:
re-add Messages.Designer.cs
rixel: 4bf7cb2 | diakopter++ | sprixel/sprixel.csproj:
fixup .csproj
sorear \o/ test.pl runs to completeion
18:33 risou left, risou joined
mberends diakopter: nice to see you're playing with Sprixel again :) 18:34
jnthn: halp pleas
sorear hi mberends!
mberends hi sorear! you're very busy too!
18:39 masak joined 18:40 timbunce left 18:43 mavrc left 18:44 tadzik joined, rindolf joined
rindolf Hi all. Does anyone have any comments about perl-begin.org/learn/perl6/ ? 18:44
18:46 masak left, mavrc joined
tadzik I'd sneak some "Perl 6 is not Perl 5" somewhere in the last part 18:46
flussence s/\.\././ ? 18:47
18:47 masak joined
tadzik also, perl6.org/documentation has now pretty nice content, and a bit friendlier to, so it's a nice place to link to 18:47
18:47 masak left
flussence (two dots at the end of a sentence sticks out to me like a sore thumb, I've never understood why) 18:47
apart from that, it looks well-written 18:48
diakopter rakudo: sub a(Int, Str; Int) { }; 18:50
rindolf flussence: where do you see that? 18:51
diakopter moritz_: ^^ :)
flussence rindolf: middle of the second-to-last section thing
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
flussence ...did someone raise the timeout on p6eval recently? that one took a while. 18:52
diakopter does not know
rindolf flussence: oh, that's due to the <q> tag.
flussence: let me get rid of it.
flussence Ah, that looks more sense-making now. 18:54
jnthn mberends: oh hai 18:56
How can I halp?
tadzik Star today? 18:57
(tonight?)
rindolf flussence: fixed.
jnthn #phasers in a few mins.
moritz_ rindolf: s/displace/replace/ maybe? 18:58
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rindolf moritz_: why? 18:58
moritz_: displace as in succeed
moritz_: en.wiktionary.org/wiki/displace - see meaning #2. 18:59
moritz_ rindolf: ah, for me as a physicist I mostly know "displace" as "spatially move"
rindolf: having read about it, I agree it's ok 19:00
rindolf moritz_: ok.
19:01 ash_ joined, justatheory left
pmichaud Star tonight 19:02
19:02 justatheory joined
flussence yay! 19:02
pmichaud afk for about 30 mins 19:03
moritz_ #phasers now!
19:04 zby_home_ left 19:06 stkowski left
masak now now now 19:06
moritz_ .say for now, now now 19:09
rakudo: .say for now, now, now
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«Instant:2010-09-28T18:46:23.603417Z␤Instant:2010-09-28T18:46:23.855916Z␤Instant:2010-09-28T18:46:23.987443Z␤»
masak a reflection on the fleeting instants in our lives. 19:10
jnthn no no 19:13
now.^methods # this is reflection
;-)
masak :P 19:15
sorear I wonder how dalek will cope with the 51 patch fast forward merge I just fed it. 19:18
flussence braces for impact
dalek ecza/master: e7f4146 | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
[mm] Reimplement the $/ hack
 19:19
ecza/master: 6878346 | sorear++ | src/ (3 files):
[mm] Implement ltm data storing
ecza/master: d75ad08 | sorear++ | / (6 files):
[mm] Fix static $*foo cases, compiler driver
mberends jnthn: in 6model/dotnet/compiler/DNST2CSharp.pm:114 there is a var whose data type I cannot figure out by code inspection. Could you suggest where to look in a MethodCall object to figure out what its return type is? 19:20
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jnthn mberends: looking 19:20
mberends: ew. 19:22
19:22 tomaw_ joined
jnthn mberends: Laziness bytes. 19:23
*bites
...
mberends: What really should happen is that DNSTMethodCall gets a type atribute
mberends: And that this gets set when it's constructed.
masak .oO( unless it nybbles... ) 19:24
mberends jnthn: Many of the other var types went away without too much effort, but this one does byte :(
19:24 jaldhar left
jnthn mberends: Yes, it will I'm afraid. 19:24
mberends: Would it help you if I eliminated it in the dotnet version?
19:25 ash_ left
mberends jnthn: probably, but I don't have a suggestion for what you should write to do that. I could eliminate a few more vars by backporting from the java code. 19:25
jnthn mberends: Oh, I suspect I can probably kill 'em off. 19:26
mberends: It was more a "I want progress NOW!" thing than a "long term we don't need to note what type we expect" thing.
mberends: That is, it's all stuff that I'd need to do when eventually generating IL rather than C#. 19:27
mberends jnthn: yes 19:28
19:32 ash_ joined
dalek odel: 842f415 | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/DNST.pm:
Add a type attribute to DNST::MethodCall.
 19:34
mberends jnthn++
jnthn I didn't do anything yet. :P
mberends just bought a Lego Mindstorms set on eBay :) 19:35
tadzik :D
masak mberends: \o/
jnthn mberends: Yay! 19:36
mberends masak: you're not allowed to play with it next week!
masak mberends: understood. :)
ash_ mberends: if you like robotics and want something a bit more involved look up the Ardunio, but if your not thats good too, i just like robotics :P
dalek ecza/master: e417169 | sorear++ | src/ (6 files):
Remove a lot of bits of the old metamodel
 19:37
mberends ash_: this one is for $kid, but dad will probably play too ;)
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mberends scans eBay for Arduino stuff ;) ash_++ 19:43
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ash_ mberends: if you don't see anything thing there, checkout sparkfun.com or www.ardunio.cc for them, they just came out with 2 new boards, and btw their software works on Windows, OS X, and linux, its one of the few microcontrollers that doesn't need a special programmer too, which is nice 19:45
www.arduino.cc/ it helps if you spell it right
masak ooh, this is interesting -- the "leave" semantics of the statement-ending 'when' construct in Perl 5 being defended: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1735497
mberends ash_: yes, I do like these things too. I think the 'Evil Genius' book was on sale in Maplin in the UK. No special programmer is a nice indeed. 19:48
s/a nice/nice/ 19:50
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ash_ the new ones are nifty, the have a special USB hub on them so you can program the arduino board to show up as any USB device, it can show up as a keyboard or mouse or an interface card. This also means no special drives for them anymore since its not using FTDI anymore, which is an added bonus of being able to plug it in just about anywhere and work 19:50
sorear contemplates portability
niecza on java. mmm. 19:51
ash_ if you like .net more than C with a splash of C++ (arduino's are written in a language called Wiring, its a superset of C) there is also the Netduino, which is kinda a clone of the Arduino but targets .NET netduino.com/ 19:53
dalek odel: 3be093e | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/DNST2CSharp.pm:
If we have a supplied type, emit it in place of var for DNST::MethodCall nodes. Means we can do the transition away from var in stages.
 19:54
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dalek odel: 02d64c8 | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
Some initial tentative var-elimination for DNST::MethodCall nodes.
 19:54
sorear jnthn: Why are you transitioning away from var? 19:55
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mberends sorear: it's easier to keep the java translation in sync with C# that way. 19:56
Grimnir_ Funny observation (not by me, and I'm not sure it's totally true, but quite funny): the tmtowtdi paradigm can make Perl people write Python code, if that's what is the best for the task (or they might just do it anyway, cause there is more than one way to do it). On the other hand it seems Python people would never write Perl code. 19:57
jnthn sorear: Because it's less headache for me to eliminate it than it is for mberends ;-)
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jnthn (since I wrote this pile of scary in the first place :-)) 19:57
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masak Grimnir_: I find there's quite a lot of empty politics/PR in the respective stances of Perl and Python, with "there's more than one way to do it", and "there should be one obvious way to do it". 19:58
jnthn sorear: Also I'd have needed to do it anyway
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jnthn sorear: Since I want to make IL at some point and the assembler won't type-infer for me. ;-) 19:59
masak Grimnir_: in the end, it comes down to being pragmatic and being able to let your code evolve in pace with its requirements.
Grimnir_: that said, the two stances do capture something about the ambient "spirit" of the two communities. but it's much less clear-cut and black-and-white than the slogans themselves make it seem.
Grimnir_ masak: of course. it's never as black and white as it seems :) 20:00
masak I love that about reality. :)
dalek odel: a40c29f | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
Much, much more var elimination.
jnthn mberends: Those get things a LONG way.
mberends ash_: which model of the Arduino would you recommend buying? arduino.cc/en/Main/Hardware spoils us with choice :)
Grimnir_ I started thinking about Perl6, when I read the "perl periodic table" (or what it's called), that maybe it's quite difficult for newcomers to learn, or it's easy because you can do the same things in so many ways? 20:01
I'm not sure. but it does seem that Python is a good language to use as a starting language
moritz_ if you don't prefer explicit scoping, yes
masak Grimnir_: Python evolved out of ABC, a language designed specifically for education. 20:02
Grimnir_ masak: it's not that I insist on the difference, and I actually like that there are those different ways of seeing programming and programming languages. it's just interesting, that there is that difference :)
masak: ah, that makes sense
masak Grimnir_: I agree that it's interesting.
Grimnir_: if it were up to me, there would be less senseless tribalism and more cultural exchange across the language community borders. 20:03
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jnthn mberends: There's one nasty still. 20:03
mberends: Under elsif $op.pasttype eq 'nqpop' {
Grimnir_ a professor and some other people at computer science here made a python library for doing concurrent programming. his focus was that he wanted to make something, that is simple enough for scientists - who aren't programmers or computer scientists - to use without making ugly race conditions, and being able to do a lot of the programming with a gui tool. they actually kind of succeeded, and it was still only a beta release. quite impressive 20:04
(they used python, I forgot to say that)
jnthn I think we're gonna need a op -> return type hash there.
Grimnir_ masak: is there a lot of tribalism?
ash_ mberends: that mostly depends on how you want to use it, the Arduino Uno (which like 2 days ago replaced the Arduino Duemilanove, they are really similar, one just uses FTDI the other uses USB), is great for most things if you want an affordable prototyping board. I have a Mega mainly because I didn't mind the slightly higher price with the added number of pins. most of the other boards are special purpose depending on if you want size (small like the pro),
integrated wireless socket (the Fio has a socket for a XBee radio chip) the LilyPad is flexible and designed for putting into close or fabric (my friend had one in a costume)
Grimnir_ I know a guy, who is not a programmer or developer or anything, but he likes to program stuff sometimes, and he really likes Python 20:05
masak Grimnir_: yes, I think there is. not so much here on #perl6, but lots in the social media, and in people I meet in the somasphere.
Grimnir_ I have found out that I so much more like a language like perl, because it's fun just to program. I get so much more out of programming some simple tasks in perl than php for instance
and I like humor elements too. I just learned about the yadda yadda operator. I like stuff like that :) 20:06
sorear I wonder how much sense find_lex_p_ic_ic would make in a Parrot context 20:07
masak in Perl 6, we don't believe that having fun and being useful are mutually exclusive. :)
mberends ash_: I have similar preferences. Thanks for the tips. They all seem affordable too. Arduino++
sorear that's the main thing niecza uses
ash_ the more i program, the more i like functional style languages, personally. perl gives me enough of that while still not being completely foreign (like lisp or haskell i just haven't learned to understand their syntax)
Grimnir_ masak: exactly :)
ash_: yes, good point
I haven't tried lisp or haskell, but I have tried SML. it was nice, but you kind of loose the grip on it, if you don't use it 20:08
ash_ mberends: if your really into the electrical stuff, you can just by the chip and build the board yourself, my friend does that, he made about 10 for a lab he works in because they keep blowing them up :P its really cheap if you do it that way (like $15 for each)
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ash_ sorry for causing so much noise in #perl6 20:12
masak rindolf: re perl-begin.org/learn/perl6/ -- from the perspective of someone who does believe that Perl 6 is "still" Perl, you don't make an extremely strong case for that viewpoint. :)
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masak I would also like to take the opportunity and apologise for causing so much noise on #perl6 :P 20:12
Grimnir_ it doesn't bother me. I'm used to people talking about strange stuff on irc channels :) 20:13
mfollett Grimnir_: I really like the Perl6 Periodic Table of Operators but I probably wouldn't show that to someone just learning the language, there is a lot of information there and that could be daunting for some. I kind of think you learn those things as you need them or as you want to and then you look at the table after you've learned enough that it can be a useful reference. 20:14
rindolf masak: I didn't try to make a case for the viewpoint that Perl 6 is still Perl. 20:15
masak: a few years back, I would have probably written something much worse.
masak rindolf: I understand that. if you're interested, I or someone else here can try to make the point on the page better than it's made now. 20:16
the other parts of the page do make a good job at striving to be objective. 20:17
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masak yay! valid atom feed! \o/ validator.w3.org/feed/check.cgi?url.../feed.atom 20:23
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sbp /topic I for one salute our new git-based overlords! 20:26
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masak moritz_: you mentioned wanting to update the Planet Perl 6 aggregator feed. now strangelyconsistent.org/blog/feed.atom is available for that. 20:27
moritz_ [Coke]: see above
masak: it's more "telling [Coke] what to do" than actually doing things :-) 20:28
masak oh. convenient :) 20:29
sbp rakudo: my @pascal := do [1], -> @p { [0, @p Z+ @p, 0] } ... *; say @pascal[^10].perl;
masak [Coke]++
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«([1], [1, 1], [1, 2, 1], [1, 3, 3, 1], [1, 4, 6, 4, 1], [1, 5, 10, 10, 5, 1], [1, 6, 15, 20, 15, 6, 1], [1, 7, 21, 35, 35, 21, 7, 1], [1, 8, 28, 56, 70, 56, 28, 8, 1], [1, 9, 36, 84, 126, 126, 84, 36, 9, 1])␤»
ash_ if you were doing prototype based inheritane wold you need a different HOW ? 20:30
masak tries the feed in his own feed reader to make sure 's all OK
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masak wow, it works seamlessly! \o/ 20:35
sjohnson any C experts here for an OT question? 20:36
（　｀ー´）
masak might this be the first Atom feed in history served by Perl 6? strangelyconsistent.org/blog/feed.atom
moritz_ might be :-)
ash_ sjohnson: might as well ask and see
jnthn masak: Looks good in ffx's built in reader.
masak \o/
sjohnson C question: if i have int getLength(char str[]) { }... is str a pointer or an array?
masak looks good in Google Reader, too. 20:37
ash_ and array
sjohnson a noobie like me would assume str[] == array, but it is not so according to gcc.
ash_ an*
masak sjohnson: an array.
sjohnson people in #c say pointer
and gcc seems to be agreeing with them
masak sjohnson: but it might be presented as a pointer, because the distinction is slight.
sjohnson str++; // pointer arithmatic works (confused face)
ash_ don't confuse array's and pointers, they are not strictly the same thing in C
masak nod, but sometimes it explains things to think of them as very similar. 20:38
sjohnson ash_: that's exactly my problem. i'm trying not to confuse them... yet pointer arith in that function works, where as if i do char[] pig = "happy pig"; pig++; in main(), it breaks
flussence shouldn't that be "char pig[]"? 20:39
gfldex sjohnson: an array is a pointer that got mem allocated by the compiler (for you)
sjohnson flussence: yes
sorry typo
flussence k
masak sjohnson: the relationship between array and pointer is basically has-a. an array has a pointer, which it sometimes exposes and confuses with itself.
sjohnson: specifically, the pointer that the array has is to the first of its consecutively allocated elements. 20:40
sjohnson confusing stuff!
masak sjohnson: thus, the equivalence a[i] == a + i holds.
er. I got the not-altogether right. 20:41
the rhs should be de-ref'd also.
sorear sjohnson: an array can be used as a pointer. When this happens, you get a pointer to the first element 20:42
But the resulting pointer is a value - it can't be modified
masak finds and likes www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/dk1r...ns_perl_6/
dukeleto #parrotsketch is happening now if anybody is interested 20:43
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sjohnson heres the pastebin for anyone else who wants to add anything. i wont clog up anymore of teh chan bandwidth 20:45
www.pastie.org/1187376
:-)
gfldex sjohnson: did you understood the difference? 20:47
sjohnson i still don't
what masak said about the array having a pointer might explain it tho, but im still not sure.
gfldex "mammy moose" is a peace of memory on your data segment 20:48
masak sjohnson: fwiw, I liked sorear's explanation better :)
sorear sjohnson: IMHO gcc is wrong to accept line 9
gfldex that peace of memory is a constant
incrementing pigger would not cause much problem (in the given case) 20:49
sjohnson maybe calling testFunc(chararray) will always pass a pointer in C?
sorear sjohnson: when you say "char[] foo" as a parameter, the internal pointer is a variable, but that variable-ness is an implementation detail and shouldn't be leaking out like that
gfldex but what would pigger-- do?
sjohnson oh sorry that was sorear who said it. thought it was masak. oops
sorear sjohnson: yes, arrays in C are always passed by reference. (Remember, the PDP-7 had 4kb of programmer-accessible RAM)
sjohnson gfldex: the code wont do anything, just commented where gcc would fail 20:50
oh, man i'm blind today. -- would just push the pointer backwards i would guess
masak aye. 20:51
sjohnson thanks for the help guys
sorear sjohnson: when you say char[] foo = "bar" at the top level, some memory is allocated at a fixed address, say 0x124, and the compiler remembers "foo = 0x124 (char[4])" 20:53
sjohnson: foo++ doesn't make sense because foo is a constant
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sjohnson ya that makes sense 20:55
i got a lot to learn
.oO(maybe i'll stick to Perl)
ahh, here it is in K&R C 2nd ed 20:57
"When an array name is passed to a function, what is passed is the location of the initial element. Within the called function, this argument is a local variable, and so an array name parameter is a pointer, that is, a variable containing an address."
i should have RTFM'd first, but i thought it would take me forever to find the page saying that. oops
sorear sjohnson: find a copy of the SVID-x86 20:58
it's about 15 pages and has all the useful low-level details like that
sjohnson i wonder why it didnt warn me that i didnt write char *str... when i wrote: char str[]. maybe they're interchangeable
thanks for the tip 20:59
sorear it's the binary compatibility spec for C compilers on UNIX
sjohnson googles for it
sorear (System V Interface Description)
sjohnson thanks for the info. well, next time i wont ask any more C questions here until i read all of my copy of K&R C 21:00
masak sjohnson: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_V_Inte...Definition 21:01
sjohnson just as i thought, "As formal parameters in a function definition, char s[]; and char *s; are equivalent;"
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sjohnson sorry if i wasted anyones time. *hugs K&R C book* 21:01
sjohnson bookmarks masaks URLK 21:02
masak sjohnson: no, it was quite informative. thanks for bringing it up.
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sjohnson "#perl6... you learn something new every day" -- today's slogan 21:03
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sjohnson sorear: about line 9 being wrong, according to K&R C book it's okay to do so 21:05
since it is a pointer, can do pointer arithmetic and such
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masak sjohnson: it's only a pointer after you've passed it to a function. 21:08
s/a pointer/a modifiable pointer/ 21:09
sjohnson: the original array is a constant pointer.
or has-a, depending how you view it.
sjohnson well, the array is not a pointer. if you want to make a pointer from the constant array, you can do char *pointer = &pigger[0];, then do pointer++; 21:10
says in K&R C you cannot do pointer arithmatic on arrays because they aren't pointers. is what your are saying the same thing said another way? 21:11
masak char *pointer = pigger; /* should work */ 21:12
sjohnson: arrays aren't pointers. arrays are arrays. :)
sjohnson i tried that, but it won't work 21:13
says incomaptible type
well, i get a warning
i shouldn't say it wont work
masak sjohnson: in some situations (such as when they're being passed by reference through a function signature) they act like pointers (to the first element in the array).
sjohnson as difficult as this stuff is, it's still interesting
masak tries locally
sjohnson waits patiently :) 21:14
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sjohnson i shouldn't say difficult actually... just lower-level than perl 21:17
K&R C 2nd Ed -- "The answers are here" should have been its subtitle
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masak sjohnson: works fine here. gist.github.com/601801 21:19
sjohnson hmm 21:20
i wonder why im getting warnings
now i'm not. thanks for double checkin 21:21
must have done something else foolish
im glad it works
cause i thought it should work
:)
thats always a nice feeling
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masak A12 says that 'next' and 'last' should default to (what is now called) 'nextsame' and 'lastcall', respecitvely? is that still the case in current Perl 6? 21:29
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masak by the way, my new blog is being statically generated by 200 lines of Perl 6 code (with Markdown conversion outsourced to 1.5kLOC Perl 5 code) 21:35
sjohnson masak i see what i did wrong for the warning. i did char ptr* = &array; 21:41
masak sjohnson: good. now explain to me why that is wrong. :)
sjohnson cause array already is the address for the first element 21:42
and doesnt need the &
would be my guess
masak exactly.
sjohnson++
sjohnson :)
sjohnson being a pointer, of course
;) 21:43
alright, back to perl6 mode for me
too much low level thinking for one day
silug i hate asking a stupid question, but is there a replacement for hex() in perl 6? 21:44
flussence fmt? 21:45
sbp masak: source for the blog generator?
flussence reads perldoc -f hex again
sjohnson sprintf with %H?
flussence rakudo: say '0xAF'.Int
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«175␤» 21:46
flussence rakudo: say :16<AF>
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«175␤»
masak sbp: hm, it's not on github or anything like that yet.
sbp: basically, what I have now is the specific solution that works for me. the next step is to generalize it while keeping it working. 21:47
silug flussence: neat. thanks.
sbp examples of Perl 6 in the wild might be helpful for learners, even if the code isn't generalised. it's probably a good example of idioms that many programmers will be using commonly, and it's designed specifically as a piece of working code rather than testing or showcode 21:48
masak true.
sbp an annotated version of at least pieces of it might make a good post, too?
masak in that vein, here's a gist. gist.github.com/601864 -- enjoy.
sbp thanks!
masak I'm making my first post as we speak. might highlight some parts of the code just for fun :) 21:49
look at the sub 'html_escape', for example -- isn't that exquisite?
even with the rakudobug workaround, it's short and to the point. 21:50
sbp yeah, I really like that one
is this following piece approved perl6 stylewise?
$infile.get;
1 until $infile.get eq '---';
I presume it's just discarding stuff until --- 21:51
masak right.
up to and including.
I've been thinking of other ways to write that idiom.
the '1 while' way is actually a bit p5-centric. I chose it this time for some reason. 21:52
I also tend to like `repeat until $infile.get eq '---' {}` 21:53
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sbp hmm, I think I prefer that 21:53
masak or `* until $infile.get eq '---';`
sbp the {} makes the noop more obvious 21:54
masak aye.
sbp noop until $infile.get eq '---'... :-)
finished skimming it, anyway
thanks for posting that!
masak++
have a kudon. the SI unit of kudos, I tink
masak :)
thanks for skimming it! I feel kudo'd :) 21:55
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sbp what was the 'if "_site/$html_filename".IO ~~ :e' commented section for, by the way? 21:57
flussence wow... that's a lot of stuff in not a lot of lines! masak++
sbp: skips generating files where the output's newer than the input, I guess 21:58
masak sbp: it's a failed attempt to only generate target files from the source files that were changed.
sbp ah, yes! makes sense now
masak aye. what flussence said.
for some reason that I haven't had time investigating, it didn't quite work. 21:59
I tend not to commit commented-out code, but this isn't committed code :P
flussence that's odd, irssi didn't highlight that line :/
sbp why did you use the [<] there rather than a nested < between the two?
flussence he'd have to write .IO.modified out twice that way. 22:00
sbp hmm. I guess somehow the IO.modified call is being applied to both the args before the < is... right
flussence
.oO( I think I'm starting to learn this language! )
masak aye.
sbp simple case of me no understand the "»", apparently
hehe
masak sbp: the » is basically a 'map' here. 22:01
sbp ah. so it's creating a new list each time? 22:02
array, sorry
masak maybe an example'll help.
rakudo: my @a = <oh hi there>; .say for @a>>.ucfirst 22:03
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«Oh␤Hi␤There␤»
sbp this seems to provide a good adjunct to your "all good, well-established features, which find daily use in Perl 6 programs" paragraph. what the commentators are missing is that these features which seem to just be there to golf all programs into incomprehensible oblivion have actually been huffmanised with a lot of care and eye to practicality 22:04
the IO.modified being a good example 22:05
masak which paragraph is that?
sbp the one starting "I think these reactions" in strangelyconsistent.org/blog/idiomatic-perl-6 22:06
masak ah. didn't remember writing that :) 22:10
but I agree 100% with the sentiment.
the featureset that I'm used to -- say, most of the features in Rakudo -- feel *very* well engineered. 22:11
silug flussence: fwiw, :16<> doesn't seem to work on a string.
but prepending 0x and using .Int works fine, even if it is a little ugly. :) 22:12
masak I mean, I'm learning Perl 5 piece by piece, and apart from speed, memory usage and stability, there are many places where I wish that Perl 5 was more like Perl 6.
flussence that's because the <>s *are* string quote operators - use :16($string)
silug oh, duh
see, like i said, stupid question
masak or :16«$string» -- should work too, for the same reason qq interpolates. 22:13
flussence q = <, qq = «?
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silug yeah, i can't seem to retain that (yet) 22:14
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hudnix For some reason I just wanted to write something like "has $.attribute = somefunc($^a)" and likewise for other attributes and have it automatically generate the right .new() function for that. Anyone have any thoughts on that idea? 22:15
flussence would *.&somefunc work there? 22:16
jnthn What could the $^a be?
You can call a function on the RHS of the = there and it automatically closures it up and does it once per instnace. 22:17
hudnix the first parameter to the automatically generated new funtion;
sure, but how to pass a parameter to the RHS without writing a .new()? 22:18
sbp rakudo: my @pascal := [1], -> @p { [0, @p Z+ @p, 0] } ... *; say @pascal[^10].perl 22:19
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«([1], [1, 1], [1, 2, 1], [1, 3, 3, 1], [1, 4, 6, 4, 1], [1, 5, 10, 10, 5, 1], [1, 6, 15, 20, 15, 6, 1], [1, 7, 21, 35, 35, 21, 7, 1], [1, 8, 28, 56, 70, 56, 28, 8, 1], [1, 9, 36, 84, 126, 126, 84, 36, 9, 1])␤»
sbp ah, bug #77462 was fixed
jnthn hudnix: Ah, I see what you mean. Hm. 22:20
hudnix Just a thought inspired by an excess of laziness :) 22:21
jnthn rakudo: class Foo { has $.x = .say }; Foo.new(x => 42)
(curious :-))
p6eval rakudo 624188: ( no output )
jnthn Aw 22:22
masak :)
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flussence rakudo: class A { has $.a; has $.b = $.a.chars }; say A.new(a=>"abcd").b 22:25
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«4␤»
masak rakudo: class A { has $.b = $.a.chars; has $.a }; say A.new(a=>"abcd").b 22:26
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«Method 'chars' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/sxuPU5SB3G␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/sxuPU5SB3G␤»
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hudnix class A {has $.a = $^b + 1;has $.b = $^a }; say A.new(1,2).a # was kind of what I was thinking of 22:29
rakudo: class A {has $.a = $^b + 1;has $.b = $^a }; say A.new(1,2).a # was kind of what I was thinking of
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in type()␤ in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/tqkPXiH0Dh␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/tqkPXiH0Dh␤»
masak that doesn't rhyme well with how the ^ twigil works in other situations.
masak submits rakudobug
rakudo: class A { has $.a = $^b }; A.new 22:30
p6eval rakudo 624188: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in isa_pmc()␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/wzoXcvg6DL␤»
masak rakudo: class A { $^b }; A.new
p6eval rakudo 624188: ( no output )
masak yay, I freaking BLOGGED! strangelyconsistent.org/blog/dog-fo...rl6-flavor 22:38
[Coke] moritz_: please be more specific? 22:39
hudnix wow, very nice.
masak [Coke]: could you please add my feed to Planet Perl 6?
[Coke]: strangelyconsistent.org/blog/feed.atom 22:40
and the post has already shown up in my Google Reader! \o/
I can't believe it all just works.
[Coke] masak: you want it to replace your use.perl one? 22:41
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jnthn masak: nice 22:41
masak [Coke]: whatever's easiest for you.
rjbs masak: Yay!
masak [Coke]: since I can't blog from the old one, I don't really care.
22:42 envi left
masak jnthn++ for suggesting the blog post title :) 22:42
[Coke] masak: changed.
masak \o/
[Coke] msg chromatic planetsix points to your use.perl URL. Do you have a different one you'd like plugged in? 22:43
phenny, tell chromatic planetsix points to your use.perl URL. Do you have a different one you'd like plugged in?
phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when chromatic is around.
mfollett masak++
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[Coke] phenny, tell allison planetsix points to your use.perl URL. Do you have a different one you'd like plugged in? 22:44
phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when allison is around.
[Coke] phenny, tell luqui planetsix points to your use.perl URL. Do you have a different one you'd like plugged in?
phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when luqui is around.
[Coke] phenny, tell obra planetsix points to your use.perl URL. Do you have a different one you'd like plugged in?
phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when obra is around.
[Coke] phenny, tell pmichaud planetsix points to your use.perl URL. Do you have a different one you'd like plugged in?
phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
[Coke] phenny, tell stevan planetsix points to your use.perl URL. Do you have a different one you'd like plugged in? 22:45
phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when stevan is around.
[Coke] phenny: tell moritz_ that robert disabled your 5-to-6 feed as it was borking planetsix.
phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
[Coke] phenny: tell jnthn that robert disabled your 5-to-6 feed as it was borking planetsix.
phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
[Coke] phenny, tell jnthn whoops! I mean, planetsix points to your use.perl URL. Do you have a different one you'd like plugged in? 22:46
phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
masak [Coke]: I'll try really really hard not to bork planetsix. so far my Atom feed seems very well-behaved.
[Coke] can someone pass that along to Herbert Breunung also?
masak phenny: tell lichtkind planetsix points to your use.perl URL. Do you have a different one you'd like plugged in? 22:47
phenny masak: I'll pass that on when lichtkind is around.
masak [Coke]: done.
jnthn [Coke]: 5-6 feed? 22:48
phenny jnthn: 22:45Z <[Coke]> tell jnthn that robert disabled your 5-to-6 feed as it was borking planetsix.
jnthn: 22:46Z <[Coke]> tell jnthn whoops! I mean, planetsix points to your use.perl URL. Do you have a different one you'd like plugged in?
masak jnthn: [Coke] mis-copipasted a message to moritz_ to you.
22:48 thundergnat joined
sjohnson niggers and bitches. 22:48
oops
paste buffer accident
diakopter sigh.
masak sjohnson: now *that* is off-topic.
sjohnson i sincerely apologize for that
masak :(
rjbs Clearly meant for #perl5
masak *lol* 22:49
sjohnson damn rap lyrics.
diakopter apology accepted, captain needa
flussence has absent-mindedly pasted hundreds of KB of random text into search engines to date...
jnthn [Coke]: Just toss the use.perl.org one.
[Coke]: It's already aggregating from my current blog too. 22:50
[Coke]: Not sure why it was added rather than replacing my existing one.
masak wait, did diakopter just strangle sjohnson?
sjohnson masak++ # funny way to make light of it
masak ...telekinetically?
flussence (thankfully irssi stopped me last time I accidentally middle clicked on this window)
[Coke] jnthn: done 22:51
jnthn [Coke]++ # thanks!
sjohnson probably a sign i should stop using the computer for a while :)
[Coke] cues up some eminem.
jnthn Or listem to some wholesome heavy metal instead. :P 22:52
sjohnson maybe rap lyrics to influence people! 22:53
concerned parents were right 22:54
thundergnat 'lo #perl6
masak y0 thundergnat 22:55
thundergnat Is R* still on track for today?
22:56 miso_soup joined
jnthn löwenbräu++ 22:56
And now I sleep. Night all o/
sjohnson cya! 22:57
thundergnat (backlogs) Ooo! tadzik and nymacro, perl6 golf. Let me take a whack at it. 22:58
[Coke] last i heard, R* was on track, pmichaud is at least temporarily delayed by errands. 23:00
sjohnson cover your eyes when you backlog near my parts ;) 23:01
diakopter once upon a time some of us had access to an irclog memory hole
thundergnat sjohnson: I'll studiously avoid your parts, never fear. 23:03
sjohnson （　｀ー´） 23:04
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dalek odel: cffcdc8 | mberends++ | java/ (6 files):
[java] eliminate many (mis)uses of the C# var data type
 23:07
mberends ^^ just too late for jnthn++ to review 23:09
thundergnat tadzik: golfed your 441 gist.github.com/601011 down to 355 gist.github.com/601953 23:18
mostly got rid of intermediate variables. 23:19
diakopter '(h) hit (s) sit' could be '(s)(h)it'
erm
'(h)(s)it'
thundergnat heh
I didn't change any of the prompts, but you have a point. 23:20
The winning condition check is pretty fragile too. 23:21
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masak 'night, #perl6. 23:33
thundergnat night masak
23:33 masak left
thundergnat whittled it down to 350 gist.github.com/601953 23:34
23:37 cdarroch left 23:48 stkowski left 23:51 ggoebel joined 23:55 masonkramer left, ashleydev left, masonkramer joined, ashleydev joined

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