»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | Rakudo Star Released!
Set by diakopter on 6 September 2010.
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sorear good * #perl6 06:09
I think this is the first time I've been out all day and nobody's said anything interesting
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moritz_ good morning 06:16
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sorear TimToady: ping 07:44
I'm not quite following cursor_force 07:53
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masak greetz, #perl6 08:59
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masak liked chromatic's www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2010/10/...ivery.html 09:08
moritz_ next week's rakudo release coincides with my wife's birthday 09:10
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frettled masak: ooh, thanks for the link. chromatic++ 09:12
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masak "Netcraft confirms: #perl6 is dying"? it's eerily quiet around here. am I on the wrong side of a netsplit? 09:44
toebu grin
moritz_ we just need more masaks in here :-) 09:47
frettled masak: perhaps we remain stunned by the language barrier evidenced the other day!
masak frettled: it goes further back than that... 09:52
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muixirt is looking at mfollett.com/finalized-perl-6-talk-slides 09:56
moritz_ somehow those slides don't work for me
is there somewhere a simple .pdf version, or a plain mpeg video or so? 09:57
frettled masak: oh. I've been too busy to notice. :(
daxim works for me
it's just slideshare/embedded
moritz_ slideshare usually also doesn't work for me 09:58
javascript from a dozen different domains
masak frettled: there's almost been more action on p6l than on #perl6... and the conversation on p6l has been very non-bikesheddy. kind of a mirror universe. 09:59
moritz_ I guess that adblock plus or ghostery kills one of them, and the rest is not robust
muixirt rakudo: my $foo = 11; say ("\$foo is an " ~ $foo.WHAT)
p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«$foo is an Int()␤»
frettled masak: Yes, I noticed that there has been a bit of a flurry regarding threads and such. Even intelligent conversation.
muixirt slide 16 says it is Any 10:00
btw is that a new behavior of rakudo?
moritz_ no
masak frettled: nod. I regret that alester didn't manage to recruit anyone from this channel to be a contact person re threads, though. 10:01
moritz_ .WHAT always gives you the type of the object, not of the container
frettled masak: I was nearly tempted, but I don't think my current combination of work and personal life makes me a good coordinator. :( 10:02
muixirt moritz_: and the object in this case is?
masak frettled: nodnod. everyone has to make such choices.
moritz_ muixirt: 11
masak but Perl 6 is taken forward by very busy people. it's those who know to prioritize, and get important things done :) 10:03
frettled masak: :)
I hope that I get my messes cleared out within a few months, so that I can get going on things like this again!
moritz_ thinks that other issues than threads are more pressing atm 10:04
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masak moritz_: please elaborate. 10:04
moritz_ masak: on the spec side: determining (in)finiteness of sequences/lists. IO. 10:05
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moritz_ on the implementation side: speed. Robustness. 10:06
masak I agree that all those are more *important*, indeed.
and that threads are correspondingly the Wrong things to focus on if they thereby detract from those areas.
but I'm not sure they are. 10:07
s/are/do/
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moritz_ masak: I'm not saying it's wrong to focus on threads; I'm just saying that for me other areas are more pressing, thus *I* will not focus on threads 10:07
daxim en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_comprehension perl6 example?
moritz_ additionally I don't have much experience with threads, so I'd not be of much use 10:08
masak same here. 10:09
I'd be happy to try them out once there's something there.
I have some experience in breaking things I don't understand :P
moritz_ :-)
masak by the way, could someone help me find out where to get information about the new NPW 2010? the one's to be held in November? 10:10
all I find is the old NPW 2010 page, and other information about the canceled meeting. 10:11
moritz_ is there no contact information on the old page?
masak not that I can see. npw2010.fsfi.is/ 10:12
but I believe I might have their email address somewhere...
daxim Jonas Brømsø Nielsen <jonasbn ÄT gmail.com> 10:13
masak oh, indeed. he stepped up as organizer, no?
daxim++
masak emails jonasbn 10:14
daxim right; this is from the act mauling list
moritz_ rakudo: say ([[1, 2], 3] >>*>> 0 >>+>> 42).perl 10:16
p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«[[42, 42], 42]␤»
moritz_ \o/
I've just used this pattern in Mathematica
my goal was to replace the values of a nested data structure by the mean of these values, while preserving the structure 10:17
masak nice. 10:18
moritz_ (this is a crude way to simulate laser injection locking of grouped pulses; the mechansim is slow enough to average over fast pulse trains) 10:19
masak rakudo: say ([[1, 2], 3] <<+>> [4, [5, 6]]).perl 10:21
p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«[[5, 6], [8, 9]]␤» 10:22
masak heh :)
moritz_ this is cool and a bit scary
masak rakudo: say ([[1, 2], 3] >>+<< [4, [5, 6]]).perl
p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«Sorry, sides are of uneven length and not dwimmy.␤ in 'hyper' at line 184:CORE.setting␤ in <anon> at line 209:CORE.setting␤ in 'hyper' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say ([[1, 2], 3] <<~>> [4, [5, 6]]).perl
p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«[["14", "24"], ["35", "36"]]␤»
masak I'm thinking whether this error message is LTA.
the sides are in fact not of 'uneven length'.
(well, they are both of length 3, which is not an even number, but...) :) 10:23
moritz_ what could we say instead? 10:24
masak good question.
printing out the contents of the sub-arrays might be a Bad Idea for big arrays.
moritz_ "the structures on both sides of non-dwimmy hyperop are not congruent"
masak I like that better. 10:25
masak submits rakudobug
moritz_++
moritz_ left: 1 element
right: 2 elements
at nesting level 2
masak excellent.
yes!
lunch & 10:26
moritz_ has no idea how hard the nesting level will be to obtain 10:27
flussence wouldn't the code that prints the error know where it went wrong? 10:28
moritz_ rakudo: say ~((1, 2, 3, 4) <<+>> (1, *, 5, 6)) 10:29
p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«Can't take numeric value for object of type Whatever␤ in 'Any::Numeric' at line 1379:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<+>' at line 7257:CORE.setting␤ in <anon> at line 211:CORE.setting␤ in 'hyper' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say ~((1, 2, 3, 4) >>~<< (1, *, 5, 6))
p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«11 2Whatever()<0xfa8ae48> 35 46␤»
moritz_ flussence: the code for hyper is spread out over half a dozen multis, and there are three die()s in there concerning non-equal length 10:31
flussence oh, hm. 10:33
moritz_ but that would be nice project to work on 10:34
maybe another challenge?
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moritz_ (one could even track the indexes that lead to the mismatch, and then say (left)[1]<foo>[3] has length 3, (right)[1]<foo>[3] has length 2) 10:37
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moritz_ but that's probably too slow, and too much effort 10:37
pythonian4000 moritz_, or anyone who knows: How would I obtain an accurate and up-to-date count of the number of users in a channel within Bot::BasicBot? 10:40
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masak moritz_: yes -- challenge. I think that's a really good idea. 11:23
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moritz_ pythonian4000: if there's no method for it, you might need to fall back to POE::Component::IRC::State 11:46
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tadzik oh hai 11:48
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masak hi tadzik! 11:49
tadzik how's it going in the internetz?
moritz_ tubey 11:50
masak we got some 1s stuck in a bend of one of the tubes earlier today.
moritz_ good thing we know about forward error correction 11:51
masak forward error correction isn't just a truck that you dump stuff on. 11:52
moritz_ right; it's more like a protective cladding for stuff that you dump on a truck 11:53
takadonet morning all
masak takadonet: \o 11:55
takadonet masak: how are u? 11:57
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masak takadonet: fine, thanks. a slight bit out of the Perl 6 world, but fighting to get back in the game. 12:00
takadonet: and u? 12:01
takadonet masak: Having trouble with some objects in Perl 6 but otherwise doing great 12:02
masak any way we can assist?
moritz_: if you want at some point, I'd like to discuss .new, .clone, and object invariants. 12:03
takadonet I know the answer.... just cannot remember how to do. Normally I avoid asking the same question in the channel 12:04
i have only about 15 mins then really work will begin
masak takadonet: if I followed such a rule (only asking once), you'd hear a lot less of me :P
takadonet s/really/real
hehe
ok.
Object has an attribute Str $.start_pos is rw; 12:05
I want to make my own accessor since I want to have a post and/or pre process to ensure that it meets a certain criteria 12:06
masak takadonet: making your own accessor that does pre/post-processing is (at the point Rakudo is today) incompatible with having the accessors act like they do per default. :/ 12:07
moritz_ then you should declare it as private, not public and rw
takadonet ahhh 12:08
masak you can, however, make a set_start_pos or whatever and make it work like you want.
takadonet see that is my workaround but I'm getting tired of having lots of workarounds
moritz_ then implement 'is rw' on methods 12:09
and submit patch to [email@hidden.address]
takadonet every few months I tried to do the 'right way'
moritz_ (or bribe another developer to do it for you :-)
masak takadonet: I feel with you. 12:10
takadonet: just remember that it's frustration like yours that brings the project forward. takadonet++
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masak (along with the obvious things, like the devs implementing stuff) 12:10
takadonet i know 12:11
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takadonet good thing is that I have a strong base that I'm copying 12:11
masak bioperl? 12:14
takadonet yes
masak \o/
takadonet a few weeks ago I got a Hmmer file parse grammar and parsing done in about 3 hours 12:15
well the header part anyway
masak cool!
takadonet I tried to parse the Pfam full database for a few key value pairs in each header.... well it did not get to far :( 12:17
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moritz_ needs more speed? 12:18
or is memory consumption the problem? 12:19
masak takadonet: two years ago, you wouldn't have gotten off the ground. that's some measure of progress...
takadonet speed
masak: I know a year ago we did not even have line numbers for the stace trace! 12:20
masak shudders
jnthn++
moritz_ speaking of which: one of my next projects is to classify error messages by missing information
I noticed that some errors include line number, but not file name
rakudo: my $x; my $x
p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol $x at line 22, near ""␤» 12:21
moritz_ this one for example
flussence ouch, reminds me of trying to debug JS framework errors in IE6...
"line 77"... WHICH line 77?!
(nasty experience, still fresh in my memory...) 12:23
moritz_ this one is caused by PCT or NQP-RX or so
so harder for me to tackle
rakudo: my &foo; sub foo { }; 12:24
p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Can not re-declare sub &foo without declaring it multi at line 22, near ";"␤»
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masak rakudo: my &foo; multi foo { } 12:42
p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Multiple declarations of lexical '&foo'␤␤»
masak but you said...? :/
moritz_ :-)
flussence "multi sub foo"?
masak flussence: same thing.
flussence oh. 12:43
masak submits LTA rakudobug
frettled rakudo: sub foo { }; my &foo; multi foo { };
p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol &foo at line 22, near "; multi fo"␤»
frettled (muah)
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frettled is not surprised. 12:43
moritz_ std: sub foo { }; my &foo; multi foo { };
p6eval std 263c207: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Illegal redeclaration of routine 'foo' (see line 1) at /tmp/eYYEDdOiOv line 1:␤------> sub foo { }; my &foo⏏; multi foo { };␤Illegal redeclaration of routine 'foo' (see line 1) at /tmp/eYYEDdOiOv line 1:␤------> sub foo { };
..my…
masak std: my &foo; multi foo { } 12:44
p6eval std 263c207: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Illegal redeclaration of routine 'foo' (see line 1) at /tmp/Iat7pgWOxe line 1:␤------> my &foo; multi foo⏏ { }␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
masak std: my &foo; sub foo { }
p6eval std 263c207: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Illegal redeclaration of routine 'foo' (see line 1) at /tmp/E76bK6Rz4s line 1:␤------> my &foo; sub foo⏏ { }␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
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x3nU pastebin.com/x36xgs6K 13:19
wonder what that means
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masak error is on this line: github.com/mberends/MiniDBI/blob/ma...l.pm6#L343 13:21
github++
seems the assignment goes awry for some reason.
and &mysql_real_connect is a native sub. 13:22
x3nU: I note that $result is never used subsequently in &connect. maybe try to remove the assignment? 13:23
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x3nU strange, i deleted that line and i still get *exactly* the same error 13:34
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x3nU then i put some random crap like "sj9q0wjdssa90sadk90dsa" to that line 13:34
and still same error
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x3nU what am i doing wrong? ;f 13:34
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masak not recompiling your .pir files, perhaps? 13:36
x3nU geez i don't have time for playing with that ;d maybe saturday ;d 13:37
bbl 13:38
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masak mberends and I discussed the need for a .pir file not to be preferred when the timestamp on their corresponding .pm file is newer. 13:39
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dalek kudo: 661a0c8 | KodiB++ | README:
[README] Mention docs/running.pod.
 13:49
kudo: 46b2c5a | KodiB++ | docs/running.pod:
[running.pod] Mention the REPL.
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takadonet what does: "get_attr_str() not implemented in class 'Sub' mean? 14:19
plobsing takadonet: it likely means you tried to use a parrot sub (does rakudo wrap them?) as an object 14:21
masak golf and p6eval, that's the ticket. 14:22
takadonet plobsing: I'm not even using a parrot sub....
i know masak
plobsing get_attr_str is the vtable method used to look up object properties
masak we can help you to the extent that you golf and eval :) 14:23
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plobsing takadonet: it's a parrot leak somewhere, that's the short answer 14:23
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takadonet plobsing: thanks 14:23
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moritz_ a typical way to get such a leak is through introspection, or trying to access things from symbol or method tables 14:29
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takadonet moritz_: looks like itwill be the method tables 14:32
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moritz_ if I could turn all that rakudo specific knowledge into generic Perl 6 knowledge... :-) 14:33
masak moritz_: start using another implementation :) 14:34
plobsing suspects other implementations will also have occasional problems with underlying systems poking through 14:36
moritz_ masak: hm, I should start porting simple scripts to niecza, and bug sorear++ when something goes wrong
masak moritz_: ooh! I want to do that too! \o/ 14:37
let's spur each other somehow.
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masak niecza: say "OH HAI world!" 14:37
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moritz_ niecza: class A { submethod BUILD { say "OH HAI" } }; say A.new 14:37
p6eval niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«OH HAI world!␤»
niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Action method routine_declarator__S_submethod not yet implemented at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Niecza/Actions.pm line 54.␤Check failed␤»
moritz_ submethod NYI
niecza: class A { method Str { say "OH HAI" } }; say A.new
takadonet well looks like when I call that method in conjunction with is(....) it fails....
p6eval niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤Bool::True␤» 14:38
takadonet however every method call before that works...
masak sorear: could you pls add submethods? kthxbai
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takadonet masak: real men don't use submethods :P 14:38
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moritz_ niecza: class A { method Numeric { 42 } } }; say A.new + 23 14:38
p6eval niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/NFgtAkvkHX line 1:␤------> class A { method Numeric { 42 } } ⏏}; say A.new + 23␤ expecting statement modifier loop␤Parse failed␤»
masak takadonet: that's news to me.
moritz_ niecza: class A { method Numeric { 42 } }; say A.new + 23
p6eval niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.IndexOutOfRangeException: Array index is out of range.␤ at SAFE.G408infix_58_60_43_62C (Niecza.Frame th) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at Niecza.Kernel.RunCore (Niecza.Frame cur) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at line 0 (SAFE
..infix:<+> @ 9…
masak confusedly wonders whether he should start submitting nieczabugs 14:39
moritz_ sorear: see above :-)
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Smokz Hello 14:55
masak hi! 14:56
Smokz Hi!
masak hello 14:57
Smokz So what is this really
masak an excellent question!
this is really an experiment in human endurance.
Smokz Haha 14:58
Well
Let me tell you how I got here
masak how long can we make people wait before we make a release? :)
moritz_ but we already made a release
masak moritz_: I keep forgetting.
moritz_ which gives the whole thing a funny paint :-)
Smokz A
I read an article 14:59
masak \o/
Smokz "How to become a hacker" from some well-known guy
masak nice.
Smokz And here I am
moritz_ so, what do you want to hack on?
Smokz He mentioned Perl
Well 15:00
masak many of us here are hackers, and we'll happily share all our secrets with you. problem: it will take 10 years.
and there's no way to speed up the process.
Smokz I'm really new to this I know nothing about hacking really
But I want to get a hold of it
masak yay! 15:01
moritz_ Smokz: then I'd recommend you start by buying a book, and read it from front to cover
and try out the things you've learned along the way
I can recommend "Learning Perl" by Randal L. Schwartz et. al.
masak perhaps also "Modern Perl" by chromatic. 15:02
moritz_ (though it's about Perl 5, and we're discussing Perl 6 here)
Smokz What book would that be? The author of the article claimed that the best hackers were self-learned.
masak Smokz: self-learning does not preclude books.
Smokz: see www.perl.org/learn.html
Smokz True that (when I think about it)
I will do that in a moment
but first
From what I read I understood that perl is a programmer-language? 15:03
masak yes.
a really good one, too.
(in my opinion) 15:04
Smokz So for example how do you translate "Hi" into perl-ian? I get a feeling it's not that type of language.
moritz_ rakudo: say "Hi' 15:05
rakudo: say "Hi"
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say \"Hi'"␤»
rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Hi␤»
Smokz Cool!
slavik1 rakudo: print "Hi!"
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Hi!»
slavik1 :)
moritz_ Smokz: it's not a language like English or German - it's a set of instructions, glued by grammar rules
rakudo: print (1..10).join(', ') 15:06
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10»
slavik1 rakudo: say join ', ' 1..10
masak rakudo: my $name = "Smokz"; say "hi $name!"
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say join '"␤»
rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«hi Smokz!␤»
Smokz So in what way does it help a hacker, this perl language?
slavik1 rakudo: say join ', ', 1..10
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10␤»
slavik1 ok, that still works, good. :)
masak Smokz: so, imagine you're a hacker and want the computer to do things for you. Perl is a language to express to the computer what you want done. 15:07
Smokz: not only that, it's a language that supports both small, quick scripts and large applications.
slavik1 host is list.join(delim) interpreted versus join(delim, list) ? or are they the same once 'compiled'?
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slavik1 I hope that question makes sense 15:07
masak slavik1: it does. and I think the answer is "no". 15:08
moritz_ slavik1: internally, the sub form is re-dispatched to the method form
masak slavik1: because of the different argument order.
moritz_ slavik1: but that's done at run time, not at compile time
masak right. they dispatch, they are not "the same".
Smokz I see, this is far more complex than I thought, but still interesting. And how do I write to you only masak?
masak Smokz: here on IRC? you do "/msg masak ..."
slavik1 I see, is there an efficiency difference?
masak slavik1: one extra call in the case of the 'join' sub. 15:09
moritz_ slavik1: naturally the sub form is slower, because it's one more call
slavik1 so basically, the perl5 form is faster
moritz_ no
perl 5 form = sub form 15:10
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moritz_ but the semantic difference is more important, for objects that might not be built-in lists or ranges 15:13
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mfollett What's the upper bounds on a number that I can reasonably expect the modulo operator to work? 15:15
moritz_ rakudo: say +^-1 15:16
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say +^0
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«-1␤»
moritz_ forgot the C trick to get MAX_INT 15:17
colomon mfollett: 2^31, ie a bit over 2 billion
flussence rakudo: say (2**33) % 5 15:18
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«2␤»
flussence goes off the rails with 2**34 though
colomon rakudo;
moritz_ might depend on your platform (32 vs. 64 bit)
colomon rakudo: say (2**33).WHAT
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
x3nU why there is limit? ;f
mfollett colomon: Thanks, STL-PM is having a Perl 6 golfing match and someone ran into % and %% return improper values and I didn't know if that was a bug or just out of spec.
moritz_ x3nU: because bigint NYI 15:19
colomon spec says it's unlimited, but as moritz_ says, we only have machine native Ints so far.
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flussence 2**34 % 5 works on my 64-bit box 15:19
mfollett colomon: So that'll change in the future? 15:20
flussence weird that **33 works on 32-bit though...
colomon and while in theory the answer depends on whether you have 32 or 64 bit ints, in practice things start getting wonky when you go over 32-bit Ints.
mfollett: oh yes
moritz_ flussence: then 2**63 % 5 will too, probably
mfollett colomon: good to know, thanks
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colomon acutally, 2**63 % 5 probably will not work, I reckon. 15:21
rakudo: say ((2**63) / 5).WHAT 15:23
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
colomon pugs: say 2**63
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«9223372036854775808␤»
colomon yeah, see, if you do 2**63 / 5, Rakudo will return a Num even on a 64-bit platform, I believe. and that Num will lose the last 4 or 5 digits' worth of accuracy 15:24
sad but true
moritz_ accidentally installed a 32bit linux on his laptop :/ 15:25
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colomon verifies locally that ((2**63) / 5).WHAT is Num even on a 64-bit Rakudo. 15:26
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x3nU is Buf broken in 2010.09 and 2010.08 16:40
or was in 2010.07? ;d 16:41
i mean
rakudo: my $bytes = Buf.new([108,111,108]); say $bytes[0];
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«108 111 108␤»
x3nU in 2010.07 it would print 108
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moritz_ rakudo: my $bytes = Buf.new(108,111,108); say $bytes[0]; 16:42
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«108␤»
moritz_ constructor API changed
x3nU thanks :) 16:43
masak during the summer I changed it first one way, then the other way.
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masak today's realization while teaching Perl 5: making sigils invariant and the disappearance of 'wantarray' are two aspects of the same bigger change in the language. 16:49
moritz_ blogged about that some time ago 16:50
huf sigils and wantarray?
can i have a link to that blogpost?
masak moritz_: yes, URL? :) 16:52
takadonet I might submit it to reddit :P
masak so, turns out that our newfound friend Smokz was an aspiring blackhat. since he obviously didn't know what he was doing, I decided to be polite to him, and give him subtle signals that I didn't approve of such a carreer choice. 16:54
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masak nom & 17:02
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flussence Re what masak just said: surely that guy would've seen www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#what_is since he claims to have got here via there... *sigh* 17:22
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moritz_ phenny: tell masak about perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/immutabl...ntext.html 17:31
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
dalek rixel: d77d522 | diakopter++ | sprixel/ (4 files):
add TopLoader.pl6, the beginnings of the perlesque libraries written in perlesque.
 17:33
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CGUser538 hello 17:41
takadonet CGUser538: hey
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sorear good * #perl6 18:28
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takadonet sorear: yo 18:33
x3nU is there way to push to Buf? 18:34
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masak ahojte! 19:01
phenny masak: 17:31Z <moritz_> tell masak about perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/immutabl...ntext.html
masak moritz_: thank you.
takadonet masak: www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/dr8z...d_context/ 19:03
hopefully more people will see it :)
masak \o/ takadonet++
takadonet the topic should only be for the r/perl 19:05
masak x3nU: you should be able to .push to Buf. if you can't, please submit a rakudobug or delegate the submission of a rakudobug to someone :)
moritz_ rakudo: my $x = Buf.new(1, 2, 3); $x.push: 4; say $x.perl 19:07
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Method 'push' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/P69DJa1ior␤»
moritz_ rakudo: my $x = Buf.new(1, 2, 3); say $x.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Buf()␤» 19:08
moritz_ WTBH?
sorear moritz_: kurila has immutabile sigils, fwiw 19:09
moritz_: also, calls in tail position do not have a compile time known context 19:11
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isBEKaml OHHAI, #perl6! 19:16
takadonet isBEKaml: hey
isBEKaml (accidentally installed obsd :P )
haven't tried setting up rakudo yet on this machine. I, uhm, find it very minimal - so touring the countryside. ;) 19:18
masak isBEKaml: \o/
isBEKaml yo masak!
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masak isBEKaml: how's life? 19:21
isBEKaml masak: pretty tight on work end until the last few weeks, petered out now. So, I can get back to Rakudo! \o/
masak \o/ 19:22
isBEKaml masak: how's things at your end?
masak isBEKaml: fine. just had a yummy evening meal. time for some hacking :)
isBEKaml masak: that's great! I'll be on leave from work this month end, time comes for full time lookey-pokey hacking! :) 19:23
jnthn Evening, all. 19:24
isBEKaml hi jnthn!
masak jnthn! \o/
jnthn o/ masak, isBEKaml 19:26
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isBEKaml jnthn: I was watching your talk live a couple of days ago. Any chance the slides will be available online? 19:27
I'd like to look over them again and if possible, watch the recorded video too. 19:28
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jnthn isBEKaml: The slides for the signatures one are pretty similar to the ones from YAPC::Europe, and are on my site's talks page 19:28
isBEKaml: I'll get both up soon. 19:29
I've mostly been exhausted since returning from France.
isBEKaml jnthn++ (rest first, hacks l8r)
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isBEKaml to those that have been to the conference, how was France? Anyone wound up saying "rue" for "streets" and the other way round? ;) 19:32
x3nU wtf? i don't get it, 2009.10 windows: 19:33
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x3nU 09* 19:33
>C:\Users\xenu>perl6 -e "my $x = Buf.new(1, 2, 3); $x.push: 4; say $x.perl;"
Method 'push' not found for invocant of class '' in main program body at line 1
2009.09 linux:
19:34 zby_home___ left
x3nU [root@462 ~]# perl6 -e "my $x = Buf.new(1, 2, 3); $x.push: 4; say $x.perl" 19:34
===SORRY!===
Malformed my at line 1, near "= Buf.new("
2009.08 linux:
19:34 zby_home joined
x3nU [xenu@sundance ~]$ perl6 -e "my $x = Buf.new(1, 2, 3); $x.push: 4; say $x.perl" 19:34
isBEKaml x3nU: you got those from 2009?
x3nU ===SORRY!===
Malformed my at line 1, near "= Buf.new("
2010* sorry
;f
sorear hello masak
masak hello sorear
isBEKaml $x.push: 4 is valid usage? I don't know - I'm just guessing.. 19:35
x3nU it's respectively: 2010.09 win32, 2010.09 linux, 2010.08 linux
isBEKaml: i copied that from
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x3nU oh wait 19:36
jnthn isBEKaml: I'd rue making such a mistake...
x3nU facepalms
isBEKaml rakudo: my $x = Buf.new(1,2,3); $x.push: 4; $x.perl.say;
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Method 'push' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/oJ1KP5kMN8␤»
isBEKaml jnthn: ejjjactly!
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jnthn isBEKaml: Overall, the conference was good, the beer event at the conference allowed me to drink free Hoegarden, and I had some really nice food. Only downside was that the venue was in a crappy part of the city that's basically a building site at the moment. 19:39
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isBEKaml jnthn: I was afraid you'd say good cheese, good wine. :D 19:40
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isBEKaml jnthn: to the downside, but hey - you got a good deal of walking to shake off those calories! 19:40
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sorear jnthn: Have you seen TimToady lately? diakopter is getting concerned 19:43
jnthn sorear: I haven't, but I've barely been on #perl6 myself of late.
sorear: Oh, isn't he en-route to YAPC::Asia at the moment?
sorear Oh, I meant IRL. I thought you went to the same place 19:44
masak: How would I go about creating a bug queue for Niecza?
jnthn No, no, France != Japan. :-)
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jnthn Japan = metro runs perfectly. France = metro doesn't run due to strikes. 19:44
masak sorear: technically, the RT queue is for Perl 6, not just Rakudo.
jnthn ;-)
moritz_ sorear: github.com/sorear/niecza/issues
like this?
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sorear neat 19:46
jnthn sorear: Give masak++ that URL in order to receive your 1024 bug reports. ;-) 19:47
masak cackles 19:48
moritz_ niecza: class A { has $.x = 3 }; say A.new.x
p6eval niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object␤ at Niecza.Kernel.Assign (Niecza.Frame th, Niecza.Variable lhs, Niecza.Variable rhs) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at SAFE.G476infix_58_60_61_62C (Niecza.Frame th)
..[0x00…
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moritz_ opened the first 3 tickets 19:52
masak moritz_++
sorear This should be a bit more managable than my TODO lists of doom :) 19:53
masak been there, done that.
sorear I think TODO lists only really work well for single people
jnthn Married people never have time to do anything on them. 19:54
masak even those that are engaged are endangered. 19:55
moritz_ evolutionary speaking, singles are endangered :-) 19:56
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isBEKaml I see a battle of wits... ;) 19:57
or is that a battle at wit's end? :P
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colomon seems to me like my to-do lists always were a disaster even when I was single. 20:02
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masak my TODO lists have a tendency to revolt against me. I'm single. 20:03
takadonet what is an easy way to grab all the attribute of an object? 20:04
isBEKaml $obj.^attributes ? (I may be wrong, though)
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isBEKaml rakudo: class A { has $.x; has $.y }; A.^attributes.perl.say; 20:05
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Method 'attributes' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in 'Mu::attribs' at line 1216:CORE.setting␤ in 'Mu::perl' at line 1225:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
jnthn .^attributes works, you just can't .perl it at the moment
isBEKaml rakudo: class A { has $.x; has $.y }; A.^attributes.say;
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«$!x$!y␤»
jnthn Somebody should really fix our meta-model...
isBEKaml jnthn: that error message doesn't say anything to me, TBH. The first line is enough to throw me off track. 20:07
jnthn It shouldn't happen.
dukeleto rakudo: class A { has $.x; has $.y }; say ~A.^attributes; 20:10
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«$!x $!y␤»
dukeleto darn.
jnthn It's because .perl introspects attributes and the meta-class of Attribute doesn't know how to talk about its attributes.
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isBEKaml From what you say, it's like looking from both ends of the tube at once. 20:11
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jnthn That's fine, you just have to tie the tube in a knot. 20:12
isBEKaml darn, I knew I should have said pipe!
dukeleto Moebius Meta-Model? 20:15
jnthn 6model # follow the 6 from the top into the loop at the bottom...you can go around forever... :-) 20:16
masak isBEKaml: if you're looking into the tube, you're standing in the way, and the zeroes and ones shuttling through it won't get through. :)
jnthn: aaaah nooooo NO CARRIER 20:17
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isBEKaml well, you never get anywhere with mobius model. you just wind up in the same place you started. :D 20:17
jnthn masak: Don't see 6model out loud in Swedish either. :P
masak jnthn: too few 'l's, but I see what you mean :) 20:18
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jnthn masak: I'm a little surprised that I only realized that a week or so ago... 20:18
masak now that you mentioned it, so am I :P
isBEKaml masak: well, the bits know how to work around blocks. They have survived so far. :P
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masak mfollett++ # twitter.com/mfollett/status/27373676129 20:32
and twitter.com/michaelschade/status/27373895044 \o/
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jnthn mfollett++ 20:33
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sorear is disturbed by the tight coupling between Cursor and STD on the $*HIGHFOO globals 20:34
masak sorear: that sounds bad, but could you linger a bit on why it's bad? 20:35
sorear masak: because it isn't at all clear whether this is supposed to be a public API 20:36
the part of STD which generates "Expecting any of ..." error fragments depends on an undocumented extension to the regex engine 20:37
masak :S
sorear I'm probably going to implement it in niecza, but after TimToady++ gets back from YAPC::Asia I'll have to find out what to do about this
dalek ecza/master: b6f56c0 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
Implement minimal matching
frettled Oh, YAPC::Asia is now, and I've missed it completely. 20:47
Abigail tried to lure me. 20:48
jnthn frettled: Worth going to if you get chance.
I'd love to go again.
frettled I'll have to learn to cross my konnichi-was and wakarimasens ;) 20:49
jnthn nah, just learn "nama biru" 20:50
masak can guess what that means
jnthn ...oh, best add "onegeishimasu" for politeness :-)
masak "biru" looks like a sound loan.
sorear hasn't learned nama yet 20:51
jnthn sorear: draught
masak om nama nama rama.
jnthn Well, I think it literally means "fresh" or something
But implication is from the tap, not from a bottle.
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sorear interesting 20:52
jnthn Yes, nama biru tends to be. :-)
sorear most modifiers like that end in /[na|no|i]$/ unless they're loans of an entire phrase
frettled jnthn: I think I may need to learn a different phrase, as I really don't like beer. 20:54
molecules rakduo: say 'result is ' ~ { undef // 5 }; 20:55
sorear rakUDo
jnthn There Is No undef
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jnthn also that :-) 20:55
frettled But I think a rakduo would be nice. 20:56
masak there is no rakduo.
diakopter thinks of adding that to p6eval
jnthn rakudo: say 'result is ' ~ { undef // 5 };
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of undef as a value; in Perl 6 please use something more specific:␤ Mu (the "most undefined" type object),␤ an undefined type object such as Int,␤ Nil as an empty list,␤ *.notdef as a matcher or method,␤ Any:U as a type constraint␤
.. or fail() as a failur…
moritz_ rakudo: say fail().perl
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: ( no output )
sorear wonders when to tell p6* about niecza
molecules rakudo: say 'result is ' ~ { Mu // 5 };
frettled ooh, awesome error message!
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«result is _block125␤»
cotto !seen pmichaud 20:57
masak rakudo: say ('r', <a k u d>.roll(4), 'o').join for ^10
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«rkukao␤rudado␤rkduko␤rudkko␤rukkko␤rdukko␤rddako␤rdakko␤rauuuo␤rakdko␤»
masak oh wait. that's what pick's good at.
rakudo: say ('r', <a k u d>.pick(4), 'o').join for ^10
molecules Does // exist in Perl 6?
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«raukdo␤rudkao␤ruadko␤raukdo␤ruakdo␤rukado␤rukado␤rdukao␤rdkauo␤rdukao␤»
masak molecules: sure.
frettled guess where P5 got it from :)
jnthn yes
Note you wanted parens there, not { ... } 20:58
moritz_ masak: people usually get the 'ra' right :-)
jnthn rakudo: say 'result is ' ~ ( Mu // 5 )
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«result is 5␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say ('ra', <k u d>.pick(*), 'o').join for ^10
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«raukdo␤rakduo␤rakudo␤rakudo␤radkuo␤radkuo␤raukdo␤raukdo␤rakduo␤radkuo␤»
masak thinks "radkuo" sounds pretty rad 20:59
jnthn raukdo must smoke a lot.
molecules @masak, @sorear, @jnthn (and anyone else I missed)Thanks for the feedback everyone.
sorear can't we just call it らくど
masak molecules: anytime.
diakopter raduko must dump alot
sorear molecules: twitter much? ;)
diakopter wait, I don't see raduko on there.
molecules @sorear not at all 21:00
sorear Then I wonder where this '@sorear' is coming from
molecules The only chatting I've really done is here, unless you count comments on StackOverflow
masak sorear: prefixing with @ could be seen as a honorific, implying op-ness.
molecules That's what people use for comments on stackoverflow. That is it here? 21:01
diakopter no
molecules That's what people use for comments on stackoverflow. What is it here?
frettled molecules: they probably got it from Twitter.
sorear foo: and foo, are commonly seen, but there's no one official way
frettled Here, we just use the nick, our clients take care of highlighting automagically.
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sorear TIMTOWDI 21:01
molecules sorear: frettled: Thus? Thanks 21:02
frettled for instance, yes!
(and no problem)
sorear @molecules It doesn't really matter, I was just amused 21:03
molecules sorear: Thanks for helping me avoid future embarassment
masak molecules++ # welcome to the team! here's your badge. 21:05
molecules masak: Thanks. What's the badge? Sorry about my irc illiteracy. :-) 21:06
frettled masak: why not a pope card? :) 21:07
masak molecules: the badges look like this. modules.perl6.org/
molecules: you get a courtesy "newcomer badge", self-expiring in 7 days.
frettled: I'm fresh out of pope cards. I've had an unprecedented number of pope visits lately. 21:08
molecules masak: Thanks.
masak also, the newcomer badge looks much better than those on that page. I never professed to being able to draw well :) 21:09
Util New RC solution: rosettacode.org/wiki/Polynomial_lon...ion#Perl_6
21:11 envi joined
masak Util: pretty. 21:11
diakopter www.yahoo.com down? 21:12
masak diakopter: not just you. downforeveryoneorjustme.com/yahoo.com 21:13
diakopter masak: :)
finance. and mail. seem to work tho
masak molecules: out of curiosity: what brings you here this fine evening?
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molecules I was frustrated with perl 5.8.8 not having the defined-or operator and was thinking about writing a module like Perl6::defined_or. However, I wanted to be sure I knew how it worked in Perl 6. 21:17
I was also just looking at Using Perl 6 and noticed that // doesn't show up.
masak molecules: arguably, it should be in there. 21:18
rakudo: my $a; $a //= 42; say $a
molecules Table 3.1 has a list of "example" operators. Do we want to include an appendix with all of the operators?
p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«42␤»
frettled molecules: I'm using the defined-or operator as an argument for converting to Perl 5.12.x at work (or at the very least, 5.10.1). 21:19
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molecules frettled: Good luck. I tried arguing for upgrading, but now that you mention it, I should bring up niceties like defined-or. 21:21
frettled Thanks, and good luck to you, too.
One of my other arguments is version parity across our installed system base. 21:22
masak bring up niceties like 'say', 'given/when', and smartmatching, too.
molecules Definitely. I guess I need to actually demo them to be persuasive.
frettled Most of our client-side servers run Debian Lenny, which has 5.10.0 (sigh), but several backend servers use Slackware with 5.8.x (argh). That means I either have to cripple my code to work in all places, or use different code. Gnarly. 21:23
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frettled The problem, as I see it, is that $boss still codes Perl 4, but in Perl 5, with the exception of learning how to do elementary Perl 5 OO (Y2K-style) a couple of years ago. 21:24
It's an uphill battle, then, to argue for new features, which he doesn't comprehend the need for.
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frettled Trying to work with Perl _6_ under those conditions is rather funny. :D 21:25
molecules frettled: Borrow one of his 100-line programs and whittle it down to 25 lines using new features. :)
frettled I value my sanity. 21:26
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frettled …what's left of it 21:26
masak mwhahaha
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gfldex frettled: your boss doesnt deserve you 21:36
diakopter wonders if gfldex is frettled's boss 21:37
frettled *ROFL*
diakopter :)
gfldex " which 21:38
he doesn't comprehend the need for."
if i would be his boss i would know a way to solve his problems
frettled heh 21:39
diakopter (my jest was suggesting gfldex was being humorously sarcastic)
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