»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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araujo looks in 01:21
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sorear araujo \o/ 01:30
good * #perl6
araujo sorear, /o/
hehe 01:31
shachaf sorear: Hello.
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TimToady sorear: if you haven't, see discussion from irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-02-14#i_5149103 and following 03:46
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TimToady (the gist has been revised a couple times since then, however) 03:47
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sorear is REALLY an existing concept? 03:52
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TimToady no 04:09
see the further discussion of "delegate" and such 04:10
though it might possibly be a pointer in the object header that is already there
we're basically trying to suss out the bits and pointer of something SV-esque 04:11
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TimToady of course, this meaning of "delegate" could also just be composition for simple types, depending on VM support for this and that 04:19
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sorear TimToady: I don't like this "intrinsic truth" thing - niecza only has one concept of truthiness atm 04:50
I'm only looking at the gist currently 04:51
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sorear less charitably, niecza has a lot riding on .Bool being the only real truth. :D 04:54
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sorear TimToady: what do you mean by OK and Nil being *roles*?! and how is it possible for a role to be "in" Any? 04:57
o/ retupmoca
retupmoca \o
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TimToady sorear: please read the backlog on that; they aren't really roles 05:16
I'm just trying to talk about low-level concepts in terms of high-level concepts that don't quite fit 05:18
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TimToady sorear: so, if you don't have a low-level concept of "true", how do you tell if the result of .Bool is true or not? :) 05:23
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moritz \o 06:06
sorear o/ moritz 06:08
I am not going to understand this proposal until I've had a chance to talk to jnthn, I think 06:09
moritz phenny: tell jnthn that on the bs branch, t/hll/01-language.t segfaults here in default_type_check -- want a backtrace or anything? 06:14
phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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TimToady perl6: for [1..5] X [0..2] -> $a, $b { say "A $a B $b" } 07:07
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«A 1 0 B 1 1␤A 1 2 B 2 0␤A 2 1 B 2 2␤A 3 0 B 3 1␤A 3 2 B 4 0␤A 4 1 B 4 2␤A 5 0 B 5 1␤A 5 2 B ␤»
..niecza v14-42-g1d02da9: OUTPUT«A 1 2 3 4 5 B 0 1 2␤»
..rakudo bd5adb: OUTPUT«A 1 B 0␤A 1 B 1␤A 1 B 2␤A 2 B 0␤A 2 B 1␤A 2 B 2␤A 3 B 0␤A 3 B 1␤A 3 B 2␤A 4 B 0␤A 4 B 1␤A 4 B 2␤A 5 B 0␤A 5 B 1␤A 5 B 2␤»
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TimToady only niecza++ gets that right 07:08
unfortunately, rosettacode.org/wiki/Knapsack_probl...ded#Perl_6 depends on rakudo's incorrect behavior 07:09
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TimToady perl6: for 1..5 X 0..2 -> $a, $b { say "A $a B $b" } 07:13
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«A 1 0 B 1 1␤A 1 2 B 2 0␤A 2 1 B 2 2␤A 3 0 B 3 1␤A 3 2 B 4 0␤A 4 1 B 4 2␤A 5 0 B 5 1␤A 5 2 B ␤»
..rakudo bd5adb, niecza v14-42-g1d02da9: OUTPUT«A 1 B 0␤A 1 B 1␤A 1 B 2␤A 2 B 0␤A 2 B 1␤A 2 B 2␤A 3 B 0␤A 3 B 1␤A 3 B 2␤A 4 B 0␤A 4 B 1␤A 4 B 2␤A 5 B 0␤A 5 B 1␤A 5 B 2␤»
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TimToady pugs appears to be assuming a lol that it shouldn't, but both rakudo++ and niecza++ get that one right 07:14
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sorear fwiw, what you're seeing at :07 is what I call the major design flaw with **@foo 07:21
well, "most major". I could live with it in 6.0 if nobody has a good fix, it's not blocker-level by any means 07:22
...wait, we had this discussion already, wrt removing the Any/list fallback
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sorear heh. over on #p5p we see... a guy ranting about Perl 5.16 removing a feature. Which has been officially deprecated since 1998. 07:25
moritz oh. Which one? 07:28
sorear defined(@array) 07:29
moritz oh
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zihan hi 08:47
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moritz nom: say 'foo'.split('+')[0] 09:26
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«foo␤»
moritz nom: say 'foo'.split('+', 2)[0]
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«foo␤»
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moritz has several things to discuss with jnthn++, and really wishes for a higher bandwidth medium than IRC 09:29
masak sort of like a Perl workshop or something. 09:32
good antenoon, #perl6. 09:33
moritz oh right, and we two coming up \o/
I've decided not to tackle <*foo> right now. But I think it's worth attacking sink context.
masak ++moritz 09:39
moritz I just don't know if it's within my reach 09:40
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dalek kudo/nom: a94a530 | moritz++ | src/core/Backtrace.pm:
make backtraces a bit more awesome
 09:42
jnthn morning, #perl6 09:43
phenny jnthn: 06:14Z <moritz> tell jnthn that on the bs branch, t/hll/01-language.t segfaults here in default_type_check -- want a backtrace or anything?
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jnthn Dang, irssi hung, lost all my windows. :( 09:43
Granted it'd been running for six months straight or something... 09:44
apejens 10:44 Irssi uptime: 468d 22h 57m 8s
sorear morning, jnthn
sorear wonders if jnthn has used /upgrade 09:45
jnthn sorear: no
moritz apejens: cool
jnthn apejens: wow. :)
apejens only thing as stable around here must be the box it runs on :p
jnthn figures he should get stuff ready for this week's Stockholm trip. 09:46
moritz jnthn: I've noticed that string interpolation generates code that boxes the literal chunks, and calls infix:<~> on them and the variables 09:47
jnthn: wouldn't it be more efficient to deal with native strings, and emit concat calls directly? 09:48
jnthn moritz: huh, the literal chunks should be coming from the constant table...
moritz: Though yeah, we could just embed them as STRING* literals. 09:49
moritz jnthn: should I add that as an optimizer ROADMAP item, maybe?
jnthn moritz: You could even make an argument for code-genning it as a join
moritz ah yes, that's even more efficient, probably 09:50
jnthn moritz: I'd be more inclined to just code-gen it faster in the first place ;-)
moritz jnthn: second question, I've been thinking about object hashes 09:54
the obvious approach would be have a role, just like for typed hashes, and mix it into Hash
but that doesn't scale well; if you want both typed keys and values, you're in trouble
so I think we need a better general approach - have you possibly though of something already? 09:55
masak reads what S09 has to say on the topic
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moritz masak: iirc it just states the expected behavior, not how it's supposed to be done 09:55
ie you write my %h{Any}, and then can use Any keys 09:56
without stringification, that is
I've prototyped that functionality in gist.github.com/1826725 but that seems to be the easiest part of it 09:57
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masak ooh 09:57
yes, that seems to be what S09 says. 09:58
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jnthn moritz: I think we should be able to do more efficiently then needing two hashes (one for keys, one for values), fwiw. Parrot's Hash PMC has a set_key_type method, for example. That in turn winds up calling VTABLE_hashvalue. 10:13
moritz: Beyond that it's mostly wiring that up to .WHICH. 10:15
moritz: Is your prototype relying on ObjAt stringification? 10:17
moritz jnthn: yes. ObjAt boxes a string right now, so unboxing that would also work
jnthn Ah, so in this view of things object hashes just call .WHICH on their argument. 10:18
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moritz isn't aware of alternative views that would work, and DWIS on value types 10:20
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jnthn moritz: I guess another override of the role TypedHash that introduces a %!keys would do it 10:26
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masak given a shaped array of hashes @AoH, I should be able to do @AoH[*; 'key2'] = @AoH[*; 'key1'], and it assigns the value of 'key1' to the value of 'key2' of every hash in the array, right? 10:38
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masak I just got asked the corresponding question from a colleague, but in Perl 5. the best I could give him was either 'for my $hash_ref (@AoH) { $hash_ref->{key2} = $hash_ref->{key1} }' or '$_->{key2} = $_->{key1} for @AoH'. 10:39
moritz can you really do hash indexing in .[]?
masak checks S09 again
moritz I don't trust S09 too much here, because it's never been implemented 10:40
masak I don't find it in S09. 10:42
I agree it's not immediate that it should work.
but that's why I said "shaped array of hashes", because I figgered the compiler or the runtime would need to know that @AoH has a "array of hashes" structure. 10:43
jnthn moritz: I'm quickly playing with something while packing.
masak .oO( repeat while .pack { ... } ) 10:44
jnthn My train is an hour later than I'd first thought :) 10:45
masak :)
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dalek kudo/sink: 4d0f65c | moritz++ | / (3 files):
Add a stub Perl6::Sinker to add &sink annotations

This is blatantly stolen from Perl6::Optimizer, and currently just walks the tree and does nothing else		 10:51
moritz nom: say do { if 1 { 2 } } 10:54
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«2␤»
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jnthn moritz: gist.github.com/1835111 11:11
moritz \o/ 11:12
jnthn Let's see if I busted any spectests.
moritz meh, a working PAST dumper would be helpful for the sink stuff 11:14
I'm trying to come up with a list of things that don't need &sink 11:15
and at the same time I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to add :nosink annotations in Perl6::Actions for the less obvious stuff
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dalek kudo/nom: e89eb10 | jnthn++ | src/core/Hash.pm:
First cut of getting moritz++'s object hash prototype work integrated into Hash itself.
 11:25
kudo/nom: b7a852a | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Wire up the my %h{SomeType} syntax.
jnthn moritz: May well be.
moritz: It'd perhaps have to be a <nosink> annotation now, but figuring out what we want there means we can put it more neatly into QAST. 11:26
moritz nods 11:28
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jnthn 2 ** Rat/FatRat/Rational cleanup 11:34
Is that ROADMAP item done now?
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jnthn stockholm ^ 12:04
& even
masak safe journey. 12:08
moritz jnthn: well, we have Rat and FatRat, but in theory Rational should be a parametric role, and it isn't yet (but I consider that a rather low priority goal right now) 12:25
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masak I'm vaguely bothered by the word "OKness". feels like we could do better. 12:27
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moritz that's... my smallest concern with that proposal :-) 13:13
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masak sure, naming isn't a big deal, and nothing to get stuck on. 13:16
but they are often an indication that a concept is missing, or has been overlooked.
to me, "OKness" seems an unwieldy version of a word that we haven't discovered yet. 13:17
dalek ast: 1b362ee | moritz++ | S09-hashes/objecthash.t:
initial object hash tests
 13:26
kudo/nom: fd74491 | moritz++ | / (2 files):
test object hashes; remove them from the roadmap
 13:27
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masak moritz++ 13:34
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dalek kudo/nom: e238121 | moritz++ | src/core/Hash.pm:
make Hash.push aware of non-Str keys
 13:48
ast: 38ed6b6 | moritz++ | S09-hashes/objecthash.t:
Hash.push + typed hashes
moritz so, writing tests does find bugs :-) 13:49
turns out that Hash.push allows creation of arrays as elements in the case that a hash is both typed and key-typed
if it's just typed, it is correctly prevented 13:50
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JimmyZ can't understands why 0.5 dies ok, but 0.9 lives ok 13:55
moritz JimmyZ: because 0.5 already has a value 13:56
JimmyZ: so Hash.push turns it into an array [$old_value, $new_value]
JimmyZ: but the type constraint on the hash forbids the creation of an array 13:57
JimmyZ moritz: thanks, just see the old value in the top 14:00
masak nom: sub balanced { return if (my $c += $_ eq "[" ?? 1 !! -1) < 0 for $^s.comb; return !$c }; .say if .&balanced for map { .fmt("%06b").trans("01" => "[]") }, ^64 14:05
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«[[[]]]␤[[][]]␤[[]][]␤[][[]]␤[][][]␤» 14:06
JimmyZ it's give me an impression that typed hash is slower than untyped hash
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JimmyZ *giving 14:07
moritz JimmyZ: how did you arrive at that conclusion? did you benchmark the two?
masak nom: sub balanced { return if (my $c += $_ eq "[" ?? 1 !! -1) < 0 for $^s.comb; return !$c }; .say when &balanced for map { .fmt("%06b").trans("01" => "[]") }, ^(2 ** 6) 14:08
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«[[[]]]␤[[][]]␤[[]][]␤[][[]]␤[][][]␤»
JimmyZ moritz: same pir ops, but typed hash uses more 14:09
moritz JimmyZ: that's not a good way to judge performance. Not at all.
JimmyZ moritz: just an impression, hehe 14:10
moritz but you are right, they are slower 14:12
6.6s (no types) vs 8.5 (just value types) vs 12s (both values and keys typed) 14:13
JimmyZ moritz: yes, pmc hash object is the killer, from bacek++'s gist 14:14
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masak nom: sub balanced { all((my $c += $_ eq "[" ?? 1 !! -1) < 0 for $^s.comb) && !$c }; .say when &balanced for (^(2 ** 6))».fmt("%06b")».trans("01" => "[]") 14:26
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol $c␤at /tmp/f7OZkWSnoP:1␤»
masak huh. 14:27
moritz nom: my $x = $_ for 1..2
p6eval nom bd5adb: ( no output )
masak hehe, I just did that locally :P 14:28
moritz but why all()?
masak yeah, that's a bad choice.
shoulda gone with [&&]
all() doesn't guarantee me order, and I want that here. 14:29
nom: say all(my $c for ()) 14:30
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol $c␤at /tmp/ihiTsgEUHA:1␤»
masak nom: all(my $c for ())
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol $c␤at /tmp/XLWPyMzIwp:1␤»
masak that's the shortest I can make it.
masak submits rakudobug
nom: sub balanced { ([&&] ((my $c += $_ eq "[" ?? 1 !! -1) < 0 for $^s.comb)) && !$c }; .say when &balanced for (^(2 ** 6))».fmt("%06b")».trans("01" => "[]") 14:31
p6eval nom bd5adb: ( no output )
moritz nom: sub balanced($c) { my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[', ?? 1, -1}; @c[*-1] == 0 && not grep * < 0, [\+] @c }; say balanced '[]'
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak too many [\+] 14:32
moritz nom: sub balanced($c) { my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[', ?? 1, -1}; @c[*-1] == 0 && not grep * < 0, @c }; say balanced '[]'
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak and 'not grep' better written 'none' :)
moritz nom: my $c = '[[][]]'; my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1, -1 }; say @c 14:33
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Found ?? but no !! at line 1, near ", -1 }; sa"␤»
moritz nom: my $c = '[[][]]'; my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1 !! -1 }; say @c
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«1 2 1 2 1 0␤»
masak yeah, huh, how did the above even compile?
that seems to be yet another bug.
moritz nom: sub balanced($c) { my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1, -1}; @c[*-1] == 0 && not grep * < 0, @c }; say balanced '[]'
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Found ?? but no !! at line 1, near ", -1}; @c["␤»
moritz which "above"?
masak oh ', ??'
moritz nom: sub balanced($c) { my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1 !! -1}; @c[*-1] == 0 && not grep * < 0, @c }; say balanced '[]'
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak nevermind. 14:34
nom: sub balanced($c) { my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1 !! -1}; @c[*-1] == 0 && none(@c) < 0 }; say balanced '[]'
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«none(False, False)␤»
masak nom: sub balanced($c) { my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1 !! -1}; @c[*-1] == 0 && so none(@c) < 0 }; say balanced '[]'
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak \o/
moritz nom: sub balanced($c) { my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1 !! -1}; @c[*-1] == 0 && not grep * < 0, @c }; say $_, balanced $_ for '[[][]]', '][', ['
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/L0yD9O0N9k:1␤»
moritz nom: sub balanced($c) { my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1 !! -1}; @c[*-1] == 0 && not grep * < 0, @c }; say $_, balanced $_ for '[[][]]', '][', '[' 14:35
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«[[][]]True␤][False␤[False␤»
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moritz masak: you can replace '&& so none' with '?& none' I think 14:35
nom: sub balanced($c) { my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1 !! -1}; @c[*-1] == 0 ?& none(@c) < 0 }; say balanced '[]' 14:36
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«False␤»
moritz sucks at this
masak :) 14:37
moritz nom: sub balanced($c) { my @c = [\+] $c.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1 !! -1}; @c[*-1] == 0 ?& (none(@c) < 0) }; say balanced '[]'
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«True␤»
moritz precedence. You must be aware of it.
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masak :) 14:37
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moritz it's a bit sad that @c must be checked for two conditions, so we can't use it anonymously 14:39
masak nom: subset NonNegative of Positional where { none(@^l) < 0 }; subset LastZero of Positional where { @^l[*-1] == 0 }; sub balanced { ([\+] $^s.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1 !! -1 }) ~~ NonNegative && LastZero }; say balanced '[]' 14:42
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«Positional()␤»
masak augh.
nom: subset NonNegative of Positional where { none(@^l) < 0 }; subset LastZero of Positional where { @^l[*-1] == 0 }; sub balanced { ([\+] $^s.comb.map: { $_ eq '[' ?? 1 !! -1 }) ~~ NonNegative & LastZero }; say balanced '[]'
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$v'; expected 'Mu' but got 'NonNegative'␤ in sub balanced at /tmp/dybF1FYbfQ:1␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/dybF1FYbfQ:1␤␤»
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masak o.O 14:43
there... is no '$v'.
moritz nom: say 5.rand for 1..10; 14:48
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«0.589615948633782␤2.73160865109944␤1.31823730208515␤1.8823077592376␤1.39960468810878␤2.44574718286451␤1.20200606364206␤2.38582855111002␤3.67438593525735␤1.49030266708337␤»
lumi___ nom: subset Foo of Int where { * }; say Foo
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«Foo()␤»
lumi___ nom: subset Foo of Positional where { * }; say Foo
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«Positional()␤» 14:49
lumi___ That's kind of weird
moritz nom: role A { }; subset Foo of A where True; say Foo;
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«A()␤»
moritz seems subsets of roles aren't OK
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masak they don't identify themselves well. 14:51
moritz nom: gist.github.com/1836329
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«[][][][][[]]␤»
moritz nom: gist.github.com/1836329
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«[[[]]][][][]␤»
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moritz masak: I guess they aren't uniformly distributed, but IMHO it's a nice solution 14:52
masak was just gonna say :)
moritz nom: say 0.rand
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«0␤»
masak nice, but I can almost guarantee that they aren't uniformly distributed.
I've been toying with the idea of a binary decision tree during the day. 14:53
that idea might fly if there's a way to generate the weights of the tree without first generating all strings.
and that seems plausible.
moritz I'd like to see an indication that they aren't uniformely distributed
let's try to do the math for $c == 2, so a total string of length 4 14:54
we have [][] and [[]] as possible solutions 14:55
so once we've generated the '[', the probabilities for '[' and ']' should be equal
masak running a simulation for $c == 4.
moritz and... they are not
they are 1/3 vs. 2/3 in my code
masak "[][][][]" is about 8 times as common as "[[[[]]]]". 14:56
I like this problem, it's elusive ;)
moritz should ']' and '[' be equally probable as long as both are allowed? 14:57
masak no.
the first char is always '['.
the second, in the case of '[][][]'-length strings, is '[' with prob 2/5 and ']" with prob 3/5. 14:58
s/"/'/
moritz that's what my code does, curiously
masak oops, sorry. i got the probabiliries reversed just there. 14:59
'[' is 3/5, ']' is 2/5.
moritz indeed. 15:00
masak nom: gist.github.com/1836395
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«[][][][[][]]␤»
moritz there are 5 distinct ways to write them with $c == 3, right?
masak factored out some repetition :)
moritz: right.
because oeis.org/A000108 15:01
moritz masak: ah yes, I've thought of that too (but didn't do it)
masak not sure it was worth it. 15:02
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moritz masak: maybe the closed form for the number of total strings can be used to construct the probabilities 15:17
for each step, that is
masak the closed form for the total number of strings will be equal to the denominator in the first choice, yes. 15:18
it doesn't immediately indicate what the numerators are, or how to make subsequent choices. 15:19
moritz well, I thought that maybe one can find paths in pascal's triangle that represent the numerators of the probabilities, or something 15:20
masak ooh 15:21
moritz but it's really just a rather handwavy idea 15:23
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masak it gave me a lot of new ideas :) 15:24
ok, I'm now convinced that the probabilities can be calculated *a priori*. 15:28
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moritz what do you mean by "a priori"? 15:29
masak "without precalculating all the strings of that length" 15:30
moritz ok 15:31
masak the probabilities can be derived from the geometry of a Pascal-like triangle.
moritz I think so, but I'm not sure how the exact rules for deriving those numbers are
but there are interesting recursion properties in there 15:32
for example if you construct a string of length 6, the probabilities after '[[]' and after '[][' are the same as for constructing a string of length 4 after '[' has been given
masak I've basically worked it out now.
just need to write something up. 15:33
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moritz maybe it even makes sense to build them up from the end 15:34
masak by symmetry it makes no difference... :) 15:35
the algorithm I have in sight can do it from either end.
moritz the probability table, not the strings :-)
masak oh, I've left the idea of building a probability table. 15:36
I just calculate the probabilities on demand.
moritz I'm still in the process of trying to understand the probabilities
so I want to build a table to understand how they are calculated
and once I understood them, I can find closed forms to calculate them as I go along 15:37
but you're two steps ahead of me here :-)
masak here's how I started down the current path: I imagined a "[" as a leftwards diagonal arrow, and a "]" as a rightwards diagonal arrow.
so each string forms a path.
it's significant that the paths diverge and converge. 15:38
and all of them form a triangular kind of graph.
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moritz aye 15:39
I was thinking of a function a(n, i), where n is the number characters to go, and i the number of already used '[' minus the number of already used ']' 15:42
so a(n, 0) = c(2n), where c are the catalan numbers
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moritz and a(n, i) tells me how many options I have left at that point 15:43
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moritz and I know that a(n, n/2) == 1 15:44
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moritz and a(n-1, 1) is also c(2n) 15:45
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moritz but that alone isn't enough 15:46
moritz waits for more enlightenment from masak++
masak enlightenment coming up.
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moritz ah, and of course a(n, k) = a(n-1, k) + a(n-1, k+1) 15:47
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moritz erm no 15:47
a(n, k) = a(n-1, k-1) = a(n-1, k+1) 15:48
which shows the bit-like-Pascal-triangle-but-not-quite relation
sisar since nqp is a subset of perl6, is it 'feature'-frozen? i mean, if you continue to add more and more specs of p6, what prevents it from becoming a full-fleged compiler itself?
its possible i'm might have a completly wrong picture here, so please correct me
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moritz sisar: nqp is a tool. It's not feature frozen, but we only enhance it if we see it as the path of least resistance to get something done 15:50
sisar: also nqp should stay fast, so it won't implement stuff that is hard to do on top of parrot (or whatever platforms it will run on in the future)
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sisar so speed and 'path of least resistance' mark the line between what goes into nqp ? no other considerations ? 15:53
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sisar ah, if something is required for bootstrapping, then it might also be needed in nqp 15:54
mean implemented in nqp
masak nom: my $L = 4; sub p($x, $y) { $y && $x + $y < $L ?? p($x + 1, $y) + p($x, $y - 1) !! 1 }; my ($x, $y) = 0, $L; while $x < $L { if $L - ($x + $y) == 0 { print "["; $y-- } elsif $y == 0 { print "]"; $x++ } else { my ($d, $r) = p($y - 1, $x), p($y - 1, $x + 1); if ($d + $r).rand < $d { print "["; $y-- } else { print "]"; $x++ } } }
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«[][[][]]»
masak presto.
uniform distribution in a box. 15:55
ladies and gentlemen, we have arrived.
moritz sisar: one could argue that "required for bootstrapping" is part of "least resistance"
JimmyZ nom: my Int %hash{int}; %hash{1} = 2; 15:56
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Shaped variable declarations are not yet implemented at line 1, near "; %hash{1}"␤»
TimToady re balanced brackets: irclog.perlgeek.de/search.pl?channe...q=Quincunx
sisar moritz: i agree
masak TimToady: oh, right. I had forgotten you had mentioned that. 15:57
moritz masak: your p() is a bit like my a(), and has the same recurrence
masak TimToady: to what extent is my solution above similar to the one you arrived on, with the table?
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masak moritz: 'p' is for 'number of choice points' (from here on and downstream) 15:58
moritz masak: and note that p() recurses, so that can be equivalently written as a table
masak I have a feeling it has a closed form too.
moritz (so that it doesn't have to be recomupted)
wait, it's not the same recurrence 16:04
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moritz masak: so, $y is the number of [' to be still printed, and $x is the number of ]'s already printed? 16:09
then it does map to my recurrence, with n == $x + $y and k = $L + $x - $y, I think 16:10
moritz too confused
masak nod.
it's possible that there's a much better coordinate system for that algorithm. 16:11
moritz I like mine because it doesn't have to carry $L around
masak well, you need $L in some form.
to get uniformity.
TimToady in diamond quincunx terms, you can turn it 45° and run the x and y as choice of left or right, and the limit is the size of the square 16:12
moritz masak: yes, in my case n starts out as $L
erm no, that's not right
2 * $L 16:13
but then the mapping isn't right
GRRRRR
moritz too distracted
masak :)
I feel we have gotten somewhere today, though.
moritz well, you have, mostly :-)
masak I can't find a closed form for &p, but if I do, I'll consider this problem solved.
TimToady you can start both x and y at the length of a side of the square, and just decrement randomly till both are 0
masak TimToady: making sure never to cross the diagonal. 16:14
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TimToady right 16:14
masak and "randomly" still needs to be weighted in a certain way to make the results come out uniform.
and that's what I do above. 16:15
TimToady yes, Aron figured that out last year, and wrote it down, but I don't think it got online
masak yes, it did.
TimToady okay
masak irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-07-31#i_4196730
TimToady I believe he figured it out from the back end 16:16
masak irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-07-31#i_4198360
my insight today was that the probability of a given choice is proportional to the number of possible paths downstream of the current choice point. 16:17
er, downstream of following that choice. 16:18
yes, Aron's solution looks like it has the same thinking behind it. 16:19
TimToady that was how Aron thought of it :)
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masak now I'm a bit annoyed that my calculate-the-probabilities solution reduces to Aron's DP solution :P 16:29
TimToady now you know how I feel every time I invent something independently and then someone claims it was derived from such and such in the literature that I never read :) 16:31
masak curse you, connectedness of everything! :P
skids damn math. why does it have to be so universal? 16:33
TimToady masak: careful, the connectedness of everything might be listening...
masak sucks up a bit to the connectedness of everything, just in case 16:35
maybe someone in here can help me find the closed formula? 16:36
[Coke] listens to TimToady give a talk about how he drinks Pepsi. The horror.
geekosaur the connectedness of everything may be listening, but if it were competent the world wouldnt be such a mess :p 16:37
TimToady non-messes are boring 16:38
masak it has two parameters, so it's a sequence of sequences. the first sequence is 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1..., the second is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5..., the third is 1, 4, 8, 13..., and each new sequence starts with 1, and then each term is the sum of the previous one (in the current sequence) and the next one (in the previous sequence). 16:39
oeis.org says that the formula for the third one is C($n + 1, 2) + $n - 1, but it has no clue about that fourth one. 16:41
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masak isBEKaml! \o/ 16:42
isBEKaml \masak/ 16:43
skids nom: class A { multi method postcircumfix:<( )> (::T $s: $c) { T.say; $c.WHAT.say; }}; my $a = A.(4); # specs on this are strange, why the unflattening capture OOC? 16:44
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«A()␤Capture()␤»
isBEKaml masak: you saw my pugs msg? Do you intend to bring it back alive?
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masak this one? irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-02-14#i_5149217 16:46
it'd be fun to dig into Pugs, yes. I think it'd be good for everyone if the project were actively developed again. 16:47
isBEKaml masak: yeah. it was quite easy to set it up once I had cabal installed.
skids pugs served to remind other implementations how far they had to go WRT laziness :-) 16:48
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masak isBEKaml: cabal was already installed for me on feather. I installed all the dependencies. everything built fine until I suddenly got a compile error in the second-last step. 16:49
isBEKaml skids: lazy bum on the beach, working his ass off! (pugs) :D
masak: that was what prompted me to send out that msg. :) 16:50
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isBEKaml masak: I didn't upgrade GHC since 7.4 with all parallel processing bells and whistles don't make much sense on an ancient machine. 16:51
masak isBEKaml: right. moritz got it to run on 7.4.1, though.
no idea how he did it, both [Coke] and I get the error. :/ 16:52
isBEKaml masak: oh, peek into his .cabal tree? :) 16:55
masak TimToady: should I expect something like '@AoH[*]<key2> = @AoH[*]<key1>;' to work in Perl 6? can it be sugared into '@AoH[*, "key2"] = @AoH[*, "key1"];'?
isBEKaml: it was identical to [Coke], IIUC.
er, to [Coke]'s.
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masak decommutes 16:57
TimToady masak: I think as currently defined you'd have to write it with hypers: @AoH[*]»<key2> = @AoH[*]»<key1>
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TimToady for the record, OKness is the third or fourth word I've had there...most candidates are too long or too overloaded or too confusing 17:10
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TimToady #phasers in 7? 17:22
hemi22189 hi
TimToady howdy 17:23
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isBEKaml nom: my $x = 42 but False; say "Foo!" unless $x; say "bar" if $x; 17:27
p6eval nom bd5adb: OUTPUT«bar␤»
isBEKaml ^^ is that right?
geekosaur I think that's a known issue 17:28
isBEKaml jnthn++ said he fixed it in his #phasers report. Got me curious. 17:29
benabik Fixed in d4d4a2
isBEKaml so nom not built yet. I see.
benabik p6eval just needs to be updated.
moritz I could imagine that the rakudo builds start to fail due to memory requirements
no 17:30
it says it couldn't find nqp::div_In 17:31
which implies that NQP is too old
but I did bump NQP_REVISION, didn't I?
has anybody else trouble building latest nom with --gen-parrot / --gen-nqp? 17:32
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TimToady trying, didn't require a reConf with I said make 17:33
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moritz well, the last NQP bump was 2 days ago 17:35
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TimToady colomon: #phasers? 17:36
trying a hilite... 17:37
colomon ooo, right!@
!
benabik NQP_REVISION seems to be correct.
TimToady tadzik: #phasers? 17:39
[Coke]: #phasers?
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TimToady just did a fairly heavy revision of rosettacode.org/wiki/Knapsack_probl...ded#Perl_6 to make it work under niecza 18:21
niecza doesn't like:
has ($.foo, $.bar); 18:22
it doesn't seem to do $object."$methname"() yet
and it blew up for mysterious reasons on the printf
there's an interesting indentation idiom on the for ... X ... X ... -> $p, $i, $g 18:23
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colomon TimToady: I've seen niecza blow up on printfs as well, that was one of the issues I ran into during the panda port. 18:26
[Coke] sorry about phasers. it was lunch time here. 18:29
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colomon niecza: class Blah is Array { method Str { ~self[0]; }; }; say Blah.new([10, 12, 14]) 18:36
p6eval niecza v14-42-g1d02da9: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to List.new, used 1 of 2 positionals␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (List.new @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/BKNyZ3K7fj line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3773 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /ho…
colomon niecza: class Blah is Array { method Str { ~self[0]; }; }; say Blah.new(Array{ [10, 12, 14] }) 18:37
p6eval niecza v14-42-g1d02da9: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to List.new, used 1 of 2 positionals␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (List.new @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/w6Jxmrw2ej line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3773 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /ho…
colomon niecza: class Blah is Array { method Str { ~self[0]; }; }; say Blah.new()
p6eval niecza v14-42-g1d02da9: OUTPUT«␤»
colomon niecza: class Blah is Array { method Str { ~self[0]; }; }; my $a = Blah.new(); $a[0] = 10; say ~$a; 18:41
p6eval niecza v14-42-g1d02da9: OUTPUT«10␤»
colomon niecza: class Blah is Array { method Str { ~self[0]; }; }; my $a = Blah.new(); $a[0] = 10; $a[1] = 11; say ~$a; 18:42
p6eval niecza v14-42-g1d02da9: OUTPUT«10␤»
colomon niecza: class Blah is Array { method Str { ~self[0]; }; }; my $a = Blah.new(); $a[] = 1..10; say ~$a;
p6eval niecza v14-42-g1d02da9: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: No value for parameter 'index' in 'postcircumfix:<[ ]>'␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (postcircumfix:<[ ]> @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/xVFbuk8Nwy line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3773 (ANON @…
colomon niecza: class Blah is Array { method Str { ~self[0]; }; }; my $a = Blah.new(); $a[0..9] = 1..10; say ~$a;
p6eval niecza v14-42-g1d02da9: OUTPUT«1␤»
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moritz nom: .say if 0 but True 18:45
p6eval nom e23812: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
moritz nom: my %foo{Int} = 3; say %foo.keys[0].WHAT
p6eval nom e23812: OUTPUT«Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤ in method STORE at src/gen/CORE.setting:5529␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/1rIUWs9ZAq:1␤␤»
moritz nom: my %foo{Int}; %foo{2} = 3; say %foo.keys[0].WHAT 18:46
p6eval nom e23812: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
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skids nom: my grammar G { token foo { <?{ fail("other") }> }}; my $s = "a" ~~ m/<?{fail "local"}>/; $s.perl.say; $s = "a" ~~ m/<G::foo>/; $s.perl.say; 18:57
p6eval nom e23812: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤Can not get non-existent attribute '$!pos' on class 'Cursor'␤ in regex <anon> at /tmp/iqQkhFtT8E:1␤ in method ll-match at src/gen/CORE.setting:3522␤ in method match at src/gen/CORE.setting:3570␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/iqQkhFtT8E:1␤␤»
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moritz that error message sucks 18:59
but I think it's wrong to use fail there
skids Works for the local case, just unusual it doesn't work for the imported grammar. According to TimToady++ , the actual interwork of fail and backtracking is still TBD. 19:01
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skids my grammar G { token foo { <?{ fail("other") }> }}; my $s = G.parse("a", :rule<foo>); $s.perl.say; #also works fine with .parse 19:05
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dalek kudo/nom: f9fcb24 | moritz++ | src/core/Hash.pm:
hide Hash.STORE from backtraces
 19:14
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TimToady in looking at some of the style changes I tend to apply to other folk's RC entries, I see something that puzzles me 19:27
it's when people value DRY above clarity
it most often shows up when people do everything in their power to avoid using the same declarator on multiple lines, preferring instead to declare a list of things, and then assign a list of initializers to that 19:28
this is often quite unclear
whereas the vertical lining up of similar constructs, while a technical violation of DRY, should be encouraged when clarity is enhanced 19:29
Perl 6 gives more ways to factor things out, and hence more ways to avoid visual parallelism 19:30
colomon examples? I"m having a hard time visualizing either approach....
TimToady but avoiding visual parallelism is often the path to more gobbledygooky code
colomon (please) 19:31
TimToady well, first understand I'm not just picking on one person here, but here's the latest example 19:32
compare rosettacode.org/mw/index.php?title=...299#Perl_6
flussence perl6: say [] + [], [] + {}, {} + [] 19:33
p6eval rakudo f9fcb2, niecza v14-42-g1d02da9: OUTPUT«000␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«00␤»
TimToady to rosettacode.org/mw/index.php?title=...333#Perl_6
flussence 00␤?
pugs: say [] + []
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«0␤»
TimToady the diff is at rosettacode.org/mw/index.php?title=...did=132299
flussence pugs: say ([] + {}).WHAT, ({} + []).WHAT 19:34
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«NumNum␤»
flussence perl6: say ([] + []), ([] + {}), ({} + []) # oh, probably a precedence thing...
p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo f9fcb2, niecza v14-42-g1d02da9: OUTPUT«000␤»
colomon TimToady: you're talking about initializing $panacea, etc and $max_val etc? 19:36
TimToady things like: my ($max_val, @solutions, %max_items) = 0; 19:37
colomon you'd prefer it with three mys, yes?
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TimToady yes, that's what is in the other solution 19:38
there's another use of indirect method calls to avoid write two parallel "next ifs", which is a similar DRY over clarity, in my opinion
*writing
colomon I'm with you 100% on my ($max_val, @solutions, %max_items) = 0; 19:39
mikemol !define DRY
TimToady Don't Repeat Yourself
colomon I'm a big fan of DRY, but I don't consider saying "my" three times instead of one to count. :) 19:40
flussence non-sequitur code between an infix and its args (though this is just my opinion :) = bad stuff
TimToady I'm mostly just trying to understand how people think, when they don't think like I do. :)
mikemol FWOW, I don't like the my "($max_val, @solutions, %max_items) = 0;" line, because it's a lot for a newcomer to chew over in a single line. 19:41
TimToady I know Perl, and I had to read it three times.
it's not just newcomers :) 19:42
mikemol What does it mean to assign 0 to an array and to a dict? Individually, they'd be quick to understand, but having them that close in context makes it trickier for me to grok them that way.
TimToady after it uses up the 0, all that is left to assign to the others is ()
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mikemol Ok, now *that* completely flew past me on reading. 19:43
I read it more like the 0 being applied to each of the vars declared in the (...)
TimToady but I'd like to know why some people prefer to write it that way 19:44
mikemol Ok, so (...) is a bad way to describe it, as that probably has its own semantic meaning...
TimToady mikemol: that's how I read it the first time, and realized it couldn't be true :)
it parses the (...) as a signature, but if it looks like a Perl 5 list assignment, it trying to keep those semantics, making the array and hash implicitly slurpy 19:46
*tries
but this is not terribly obvious to people not coming from Perl 5
colomon "indirect method calls to avoid write two parallel "next ifs"" -- finally looked at this code, it's nearly completely insane IMO. But hey, TMTOWTDI... 19:47
TimToady I think it's just treating DRY as a supreme principle, but that's just a guess
mikemol Honestly, it looks like something I might write, if I understood Perl 6 well enough. Thing is, I'd do it that way because I *deplore* tedium in code, which leats to a lot of utility methods so I can reach DRY. 19:48
TimToady good rhetoricians know that repeating yourself is essential to effective communication
at some point, adding indirection is more obfuscatory than not 19:49
mikemol Looking at the code, it wouldn't be so obfuscatory if $c were a more descriptive variable name. Even giving it the name $method would help be expository. 19:50
skids Well, to play devil's advocate, it is more extendible. One could just add an element to add another criteria. 19:51
mikemol Which reminds me...
TimToady sure, and if I had five of them stacked up, I might start to consider such a solution
colomon is sure he has done many worse things in his own p6 code....
mikemol The go-to task for demonstrating too many ways to do something: rosettacode.org/wiki/FizzBuzz#Perl_6 19:52
TimToady heh
mikemol Well, the P6 example not so much. Others, somewhat.
Also, that page is hell on my server. I need to get caching implemented around the syntax highlighter.
jnthn evening, #perl6 20:03
colomon o/
[Coke] blah! 20:07
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moritz just a quick reminder, the day after tomorrow is the deadline for the prisoner's dilemma mini challenge 20:09
[Coke] blah blah!
moritz blah blah blah? 20:13
jnthn Blah! Blaaah blah blah! 20:15
.oO( conversation here is pretty straightforward here some days... 0
...er. :)
jnthn gets a build of Rakudo and NQP and ponders a little hacking 20:16
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dalek p/bs: b0cca57 | jonathan++ | src/guts/multi_dispatch.c:
Get multi-dispatcher able to work with the new NQPRoutine (but leave the original DispatcherSub PMC hanlding in for now too).
 21:06
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freeu4 i install rakudo-start , but after tun ./perl6 give error PARROT VM: Could not load bytecode Could not load oplib `nqp_ops' 21:36
masak freeu4: did you do 'make install'? 21:38
freeu4 masak: yes,
masak then the binary in ./install/bin/perl6 should work.
freeu4 i run ./install/bin/perk6 21:39
and ./install/bin/nqp
but give error
jnthn freeu4: What platform?
freeu4 linux ,kubuntu ,
jnthn Hm. Nothing unusual then.
freeu4 jnthn: linux,kubuntu 21:40
after first run perl6 , give error about libparrot.so.3.11.0 ,i add ./install/lib to my lib system 21:43
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masak you shouldn't need to add anything, I think. 22:07
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[Coke] do you have an older version installed somehwere? 22:10
(nevermind, 3.11 parrot is the latest one we use.)
Did you remove the build directory?
I remember an old parrot bug where installed parrot depended on parrot source dir. 22:11
flussence rakudo keeps working after a `make clean`, last time I tried it
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masak 'night, #perl6 23:19
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