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Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
00:00 snearch left
bacek_at_work seen moritz 00:06
aloha moritz was last seen in #perl6 2 hours 28 mins ago saying "hugme: add Siddhant to perl6".
bacek_at_work phenny, tell moritz nqp t/nqp/60-bigint.t is failing on my box. Debian Linux/i386. 00:07
phenny bacek_at_work: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
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colomon japhb: as far as I know, no. I was busy working on getting panda to work, and I don't think I took the time to properly golf and report it. 00:19
colomon now feels guilty 00:28
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dalek p/new_getprop: 242f6e5 | bacek++ | / (6 files):
Update to new version of getprop op
 01:10
p/new_getprop: aef7cd8 | bacek++ | src/stage0/ (7 files):
Reboostrap to use new getprop op
bacek_at_work phenny, tell moritz feel free to merge nqp new_getprop branch if it works for you :) 01:11
phenny bacek_at_work: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
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sorear re-reads S09. 01:34
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sorear std: 4:map 01:41
p6eval std 292f669: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 109m␤»
sorear ponders how best to implement the my @ary[4:map(*%4)] syntax 01:42
at issue is that :map will try to modify the "4", and fail because 4 isn't a call 01:43
my @ary[$x + $y :map(*%4)] needs to, somehow, avoid passing :map to &infix:<+>
sorear skips over the compact struct stuff since jnthn++ is worrying about selecting semantics for that 01:44
TimToady ponders whether my @ary[:map(*%4) $x + $y] might improve matters 01:46
benabik Is the map supposed to apply to the postfix:<[ ]> ?
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TimToady it supposed to apply to each attempt at subscripting 01:46
benabik oh. declarative.
TimToady we could just pull the :map back out of whatever is on top, if we keep the original syntax 01:47
sorear TimToady: I don't think that will even parse
TimToady that's the point
it's available
sorear TimToady: yeah, the issue is finding a good factoring of "deferring the adverb" 01:48
TimToady well, it used to have a hardwired % for modular subscripting, but we generalized it... 01:49
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sorear does my @foo[*;*] declare a rectangular or jagged array? 01:49
what happens if you try to put a multidimensional array in iteratey context? 01:50
TimToady jagged
well, we could return ((),()) and let the context decide
otoh, [*] returns the top level 01:51
so flat wouldn't be terrible
or [**] is flat, and .list defaults to [*] 01:52
anybody's guess how these things are really going to be used, but APL is a data point
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TimToady my gut feel is that you if you can force flat/shaped then the default wants to be finessed with parcels 01:57
if explicit slicing is going in the PDL direction, then [*] might return ([],[],[]) 01:58
and those subarrays might actually be the subarrays if the top level is declared * 01:59
well, whenever the sub-bits are really Arrays
to go PDLish, we want to maintain transparency through the slice to the original as much as possible 02:01
but that's not an FPish view, since the only reason for such is to do cool things with mutability
so possibly available under some declarative regime, and not otherwise 02:02
sorear Slicing returns something that acts like a multi-D array, right? 02:05
What would .keys do with a multi-d array?
TimToady depends on what .values does :)
if .values is flat, .keys would be (0,0), (0,1), etc 02:06
sorear Would the return value actually be a multidimensional array, responding to .shape .[0;1;2] etc? 02:07
What is the relationship between multidimensional arrays and lists of (parcels of (parcels))?
TimToady you'd at least like to be able to reconstitute your array from the keys and values, so something that doesn't lose too much info 02:08
sorear wonders if there should be a way to declare that lists of user-defined indexes are recursive, not just recursively enumerable
my @foo[1..*]; @foo[0] # this would hang in a naive implementation 02:09
my @foo[1,1,*+*, ... *]; @foo[4] # this would hang a smart one; maybe there is a less-contrived example
TimToady that's contrary to the spirit of S09, which doesn't use [] to declare non-zero-based
my @foo[list] is okay though 02:10
sorear sorry, tr/[]/{}/
TimToady oops
mee tooo
I believe there's a requirement for monotonicity
or could be 02:11
sorear what if the keys are not integers?
TimToady you still need to be able to determine when you've overshot
sorear gets to S09:601
I thought @array[] was the same as @array 02:12
how eagerly is storage supposed to be allocated for multidimensional non-jagged arrays?
TimToady it's possible we should have a different method for {} shape 02:13
sorear s/supposed/expected/ # of course impls can cheat on this if they have a *compelling* reason
TimToady I'm assuming it would be allocated asap if that is likely to run faster
sorear my @huge[ ||(2 xx 128) ]; # DIHWIDT? 02:14
TimToady a sparse impl can of course default elsewise
my @huge[...] is SparseArray
at least that's how we originally envisioned swapping out the Array for something else 02:15
in this case 'is' is not derivation
sorear at S09:628, does "unallocated elements" have a precise meaning? if my impl preallocates everything it can, should it hide this?
TimToady 'is' is possibly too overloaded for specifying impl of the container 02:16
sorear wonders how to implement S09:694 02:17
doesn't :724 need ||? 02:18
TimToady unallocated is only meaningful for arrays of container types that can represent Nil
a preallocated native array doesn't have nullable pointers, of course
sorear is Nil an attribute of the container? 02:19
TimToady hmm, I didn't write the *{foo} bit
Nil meaning the absense of a container, if representable, or if preallocated, some bit that says "I'm not officially here" 02:20
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sorear How is this related to the notion of CORE::Nil as a type and a type object? 02:20
TimToady only in the sense that = Nil might well set one of these values back to that state 02:21
but it might well be putting 0 into a pointer
or setting a bit in the container
"I
"I'm not here, use the default for the array"
I think :724 is intending the * and ** to take on some of the aspects of | and || 02:22
maybe it was intended as a special form 02:23
ah, that bit was all pmichaud++ 02:24
I think that workover of S09 was when I was suffering from severe anemia and didn't realize it; so I have little memory of it 02:25
sorear wanders back 02:33
TimToady: does @foo[1, ||@bar] mean anything? 02:34
I think || needs to be an immediate child of a semilist to do anything useful
TimToady uh, I'd read that as @foo[1; @bar[0]; @bar[1]... 02:35
sorear I'd write thaat as @foo[1; ||@bar] 02:36
I'm ignoring PDL stuff for now
TimToady is fine for readonly semantics in the FP style 02:37
or do you mean something else?
sorear TimToady: what are you saying the difference between @foo[1; ||@bar] and @foo[1, ||@bar] is?
TimToady I guess we have 'is PDL' as explicit right now
none; just assuming the || takes it back to ; level 02:38
sorear Can you elaborate on that?
TimToady it will supply a missing ; if we dwim it 02:39
we can require the ; for now if that's easier
sorear Currently || is just a prefix operator
TimToady but it must work a meta-level to a list
sorear Are you suggesting making it a terminator instead, with special handling in the semilist production?
TimToady well, I guess it's a normal operator if ; is a normal operator :) 02:40
sorear What should happen when iterating a multidimensional hash? 02:41
TimToady same thing, only different :) # sorry, mind wandering... 02:42
but as much like Arrays as possible 02:43
and as much like flat Hashes as possible too
or somewhere in the muddle^Wmiddle
so if .values is flat, .keys are composite subscripts that could be looked up again with {||$key} 02:44
probably, Hash subscripts declared with shape {Stuff; 0..*; Nonsense} would really be HoAoH 02:46
sorear I think I have a mostly clear mental model now, except for the Nil bits 02:50
thanks 02:51
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TimToady just trying to keep a bit of a P5ish flavor on those array types that can support missing containers, but I wouldn't worry about it too hard; it's possibly something that can't be portably supported 02:52
sorear it's more the semantic model of '$foo = Nil' that I don't get 02:53
TimToady it just means container.reset-to-default-value, which for a normal containers default to Any 02:57
but for something like a KeySet, would presumably default to False, or a KeyBag to 0
Nil means "there's the absense of a value here"
which assignment takes to mean something like "delete whatever's there" 02:58
benabik '$f = Nil':p6 ~~ 'undef $f':p5 ??
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sorear TimToady: what happens with 'my @foo; @foo[0] = 5; @foo[1] := @foo[0]; @foo[1] = Nil' ? 02:58
TimToady I'd think they both to the same container, which has the value Any 02:59
to me that's more like, assuming a native ptr type: my ptr @foo; @foo[0].assign(5); @foo[1] = @foo[0]; @foo[1].reset 03:02
where ptr is pointing to scalar containers
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TimToady eventually we invent pointer types as natives, on some level :) 03:03
sorear Is .reset different from .STORE(Nil)?
TimToady though that's problemantic on a JVM, of course
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TimToady I imagine it's the same 03:04
since @foo[1] = $x might have a Nil bound to $x
sorear After 'my $x; my $y; $x = Nil; $y = Any; oracle($x,$y)' can &oracle tell the difference between its arguments?
TimToady I don't believe so, at the language level 03:05
sorear What happens when assigning Nil to aggregates? There are bits in the spec about @foo.defined changing
TimToady if an impl differentiates a real Any there from a 0 pointer, a sufficiently advance magic could tell the difference, but I don't think Perl 6 differentiates
(if we do defaults right) 03:06
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TimToady I suppose there's an argument that if the outermost container of @foo is really a $foo-ish thing with a default of an instantiated array, then = Nil can't undefine the default 03:08
much like @foo[1] = Nil can't undefine @foo[1] if @foo defaults its subcomponents to 0 03:09
but it can also be argued that the implicit scalar holding @foo has no default of Array, and = Nil really throws away the array if it's there
in that mindset, @foo can become undefined 03:10
so I can argue it both ways :)
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TimToady dinner & 03:17
sorear I've always imagined the implicity scalar holding @foo as a read-only thing, like how sub foo($x) { $x = Nil } doesn't do anything relevant
TimToady I daresay that's more amenable to optimiztion 03:19
but it kinda means @foo := @bar is illegal
(by default)
which seems a bit wrongish
sorear niecza allows that because it's modifying the lexpad, not the implicit scalar 03:20
but I'll let you eat :)
TimToady family here, so TimToady is in line for the microwave :) 03:21
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sorear TimToady: what would you say about my @foo[4,:map(*%4)] ? 07:24
TimToady: that has the advantage of *no* special syntax -> makes Array.new(shape => ...) work better 07:25
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sorear fglock1 08:38
!
fglock sorear: o/ 08:39
got some nice progress in perlito5 internals; most of it can be ported back (or forward) to perlito6 08:41
js compiled size was reduced to 420k; recompiles itself in ~11s 08:48
no progress in packaging for cpan 08:49
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sorear -> sleep 09:09
fglock g'night 09:10
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bacek phenny, tell jnthn Do you have any unspoken feelings to nqp's Makefiles? Or I can make them less tedious? 10:05
phenny bacek: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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jnthn phenny: tell bacek plesae don't change Makefile for now, I have a bunch of re-org of it in a branch, and I don't want to have to re-do that. 11:56
phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when bacek is around.
jnthn: 04 Mar 07:14Z <bacek> tell jnthn Any objections on merging nqp's kill_props_vtables branch?
jnthn: 10:05Z <bacek> tell jnthn Do you have any unspoken feelings to nqp's Makefiles? Or I can make them less tedious?
jnthn phenny: tell bacek kill_props_vtables branch should be fine 11:57
phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when bacek is around.
jnthn phenny: tell bacek oh, I see moritz++ already sorted stuff out wrt that branch :) 11:58
phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when bacek is around.
dalek kudo/nom: bc677b4 | jonathan++ | src/ (3 files):
Add storage space in Block for phasers, plus some methods for adding/grabbing them.
kudo/nom: 753fbc5 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
Start to break some parts of create_code_object out in to separate Perl6::World methods.
kudo/nom: 428f954 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
Toss now-unused $slot variables.
kudo/nom: a9209d1 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
Replace some pir:: with nqp::.
kudo/nom: 05464d4 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
Split the final setup of a code object out; create_code_object becomes a helper method that just delegates to the methods implemetning the various steps.
kudo/nom: c5e9349 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Swtich routines over to creating code object and putting it in $*DECLARAND before we go parsing the body.
kudo/nom: 060b8ea | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Similar refactor for methods and regexes.
colomon yow!
jnthn o/ from GPW 11:59
moritz \o
phenny moritz: 00:07Z <bacek_at_work> tell moritz nqp t/nqp/60-bigint.t is failing on my box. Debian Linux/i386.
moritz: 01:11Z <bacek_at_work> tell moritz feel free to merge nqp new_getprop branch if it works for you :)
tadzik \o
jnthn got wifi to work at last :)
colomon o/ 12:00
masak o/
I m hving keybord problem. ome key don't ork.
:/
nwc10 \o/ 12:01
tadzik keys don't ork? orka
masak nd thi i my *portble* keybord, the one I lug round becue the one on my lptop doen't ork properly...
there' ome ort of itutionl irony in there, I'm ure. 12:02
jnthn An awfuly awkard situation. 12:03
tadzik afully akard 12:04
jnthn It must be pin in the 12:05
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nwc10 how come the perl6 hackathon seems to be at the back of this talk, not in the other room? 12:06
tadzik I think it's not yet, the hackathon 12:07
masak no, it hn't trted yet 12:08
moritz nwc10: the hackathon officially starts in 20 minutes 12:10
jnthn So we're hacking unofficially in the back of another room for now. 12:11
colomon unofficial hacking! on noez! 12:12
*oh
jnthn Barely legal commits! 12:13
masak Brely uble keybord... 12:14
jnthn At least I know he can't here an assassin...
*hire
moritz perl6: say <good fast cheap>.pick: 2 12:15
p6eval rakudo 42695e: OUTPUT«good fast␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«cheapgood␤»
..niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«fast cheap␤»
masak ell, Ctrl+V till ork, it' jut not lo going.
er, /not// 12:16
masak demonstrates: "assassin..."
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masak keyboard functionality restored. (GPW organizers)++ 12:55
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moritz bedivere++ in particular 13:04
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masak ah, yes. bedivere++ 13:06
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masak TimToady: was there ever a REDO phaser? 13:14
or would UNDO cover more or less the same ground? 13:15
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masak I guess the need for REDO isn't as big, because a redo is always triggered explicitly in the code, whereas NEXT and LAST might activate implicitly by normal loop control. 13:19
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timotimo when i do ./perl6 doesnotexist.pl, the perl6 process just eats memory until it's OOM'd. what's going on there? 13:27
this is rakudo. 13:28
moritz timotimo: probably a failure in the exception handling
jnthn Probably.
There was a patch to that recently.
timotimo i just pulled the latest nom from git
jnthn So that patch musta been a bit off
timotimo may be
moritz I'm testing reverting that patch now 13:32
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dalek p: 3332c0a | moritz++ | src/HLL/Compiler.pm:
Revert "Merge pull request #30 from sergot/master"

This reverts commit 990347106f770bec366eb27a27cbabfceb85589a, reversing changes made to d44ab2eba183738e8d58079901479e5393bed7db.
This actually didn't produce nicer error messages, just looped infinitely.		 13:36
kudo/nom: 192c8f5 | moritz++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
bump NQP to improve error messages
 13:37
moritz timotimo++ # fixed 13:38
timotimo thanks
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masak how do I compare a returned value against Nil in src/Perl6/Actions.pm ? 13:50
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dalek kudo/macros3: fc713e3 | masak++ | src/ (2 files):
check whether an AST comes from a quasi or not
 13:56
masak moritz: the test you added now passes.
dalek ast: 40ea90b | masak++ | S06-macros/macros-d1.t:
[S06-macros/macros-d1.t] unfudged for Rakudo
 13:58
moritz masak: \o/ 13:59
masak \o/
I want to make one more commit. then I want to run a full spectest.
but in principle, we're ready to merge macros3.
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[Coke] MACROSS 3! 14:02
masak well...
I have gifted bug-finders in the same room. 14:03
nwc10 read that as maros3, and wondered why we need 2 more
masak they found a problem with my branch :)
jnthn mwaha
nqp::istype($thingy, $*W.find_symbol(['Nil']))
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masak danke. 14:07
moritz nom: say Nil.WHAT 14:08
p6eval rakudo 192c8f: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
masak nom: say Nil.HOW.WHAT 14:11
p6eval rakudo 192c8f: OUTPUT«Method 'gist' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW'␤ in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:6168␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/009gPae7oF:1␤␤»
masak aww 14:12
nom: say Nil.HOW.^name
jnthn :P
p6eval rakudo 192c8f: OUTPUT«Method 'dispatch:<.^>' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/xiN_OGT3SC:1␤␤»
masak nom: say Nil.HOW.name
p6eval rakudo 192c8f: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 1 passed, 2 (or more) expected␤ in any name at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:58␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/8qL935oVK_:1␤␤»
masak oh right.
not what I wanted.
moritz it's Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW :-)
masak d'oh :)
moritz it says so in the error message, you know :-)
masak :)
how do I get a list of methods of Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW? 14:13
jnthn masak: With difficulty at the moment, since you'd get back a list of Parrot subs. 14:14
Which won't tend to do the right thing.
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tadzik jnthn: gist.github.com/1978512 14:23
noteventime I can't quite seem to figure out the state of Perl6 support in the cperl-mode shipped with emacs24. 14:30
Do I need to install some patched version? 14:33
tadzik I think there's a special Perl 6 mode for emacs
there's something linked on perl6.org/whatever/
masak noteventime: cperl-mode doesn't have any explicit Perl 6 support, AFAIK. 14:35
however, in my experience it's fault-tolerant enough to do a decent job at highlighting arbitrary Perl 6 code. 14:36
it's a rewrite with the explicit goal of being fault-tolerant. they did a good job.
noteventime I'll just go with the default cperl-mode until I have any issues with it then 14:40
masak two outstanding problems with the macros3 branch: 14:45
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masak (1) variable lookup doesn't work across a macro boundary 14:45
(2) empty macro doesn't return quasi {} properly 14:46
moritz I don't think that (1) should block merging 14:47
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masak here's an example: 14:52
macro foo($a) { $a }; my $x = 42; say $x 14:53
er
macro foo($a) { $a }; my $x = 42; say foo $x
that gives a Null PMC access.
moritz oooh, the good ol' times of Null PMC Access are back \o/ 14:55
masak it just took macros to make that "feature" work again. :)
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masak nom: say ~Nil 14:58
p6eval rakudo 192c8f: OUTPUT«␤»
masak niecza: ~nil
p6eval niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'nil' used at line 1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1362 (die @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 33) ␤ at /home/…
masak niecza: ~Nil
p6eval niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: ( no output )
dalek kudo/macros3: c781128 | masak++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
allow macros to return Nil

Nil will be inserted into the mainline. This isn't spec, but it makes for shorter macro definitions. :-)		 15:00
masak that's problem (2), fix'd. jnthn++
as to problem (1), I don't understand why it's occurring. 15:01
masak works on his talk a little
random thought: maybe macros should be able to return several AST objects, comma-separated? 15:04
timotimo would they be collated at the level above that? if so, why not do that collation in the macro itself? (if so, why not let the comma operator do that?) 15:09
masak nom: my @a = 1, 2, 3; say @a.item 15:10
p6eval rakudo 192c8f: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
masak nom: my @a = 1, 2, 3; say $@a
p6eval rakudo 192c8f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Invalid hard reference syntax at line 1, near "@a"␤»
masak nom: my @a = 1, 2, 3; say $(@a)
p6eval rakudo 192c8f: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
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moritz .u checkmark 15:33
phenny moritz: Sorry, no results for 'checkmark'.
jnthn .u tick 15:34
phenny U+27E4 WHITE SQUARE WITH LEFTWARDS TICK (⟤)
flussence .u 2713
phenny U+2713 CHECK MARK (✓)
flussence (I have the number memorised for some reason :)
dalek ast: 31a78c0 | jonathan++ | S04-phasers/start.t:
Rakudo unfudge.
 15:37
rafl having made the mistake of not involving perl 6 folks as much as i should've in last year's summer of code organisation, i'm trying to do better this time around 15:38
github.com/rafl/tpf-soc/blob/maste...pplication is the application as an organisation i'll be sending to google in a few days
if any one of you had any input on that, i'd love to hear it 15:39
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masak .u 047C 15:39
phenny U+047C CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER OMEGA WITH TITLO (Ѽ)
moritz hugme: list projects 15:41
hugme moritz: I know about Math-Model, Math-RungeKutta, MiniDBI, bench-scripts, book, gge, hugme, ilbot, java2perl6, json, modules.perl6.org, november, nqp-rx, nqpbook, perl6, perl6-examples, perl6-wtop, proto, pugs, rakudo, star, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, tardis, try.rakudo.org, tufte, ufo, web, yapsi
moritz hugme: add tadzik to svg-plot
hugme hugs tadzik. Welcome to svg-plot!
moritz should teach hugme to merge pull requests too :-) 15:42
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[Coke] feather.perl6.nl/~coke/fudge.diff , .spec_config 15:48
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[Coke] I'm also tempted to move fudge to bin/fudge in roast. 15:49
moritz [Coke]: can you give a verbal summary of what .spec_config does? 15:50
[Coke] abstracts out "how to run perl6" 15:51
so that we can more easily share testing tools.
moritz then I'm all for it :-)
[Coke] Since the top 3 each have their own invocation, and pugs is getting more complex every time I talk to au. ;)
moritz :-)
[Coke] I'm happy for a better name. 15:52
moritz we should make Test::Util read that file too
[Coke] gist.github.com/1511810
ah, packages/Test/Util ?
moritz yes 15:53
[Coke] ah, sure.
moritz: make it available as %Test::Util::Config ? 15:55
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moritz something like that 15:57
[Coke] moritz: make it available as %Test::Util::Config ?
ww.
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[Coke] Urk. Test::Util is perl6. 15:59
(I was trying to include it in the perl5 fudge ;)
dalek kudo/nom: eebcd27 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Refactor pblock and block to make the code object before parsing the block.
kudo/nom: 3479bec | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
Add stub parsing for missing phasers and re-organize them to follow the ordering in STD.
kudo/nom: b771b34 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Small refactor to phaser handling so we'll be able to attach phasers to blocks.
kudo/nom: a6d75bc | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (3 files):
First crack at implementing ENTER phasers.
kudo/nom: 1a49d73 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (3 files):
Implement START phaser.
kudo/nom: 84e7c42 | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
Run S04-phasers/start.t.
masak perl6: say .5 16:01
p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 192c8f, niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«0.5␤»
masak perl6: say 5.
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected end of input␤ expecting ".", "\187", ">>", "=", "^", operator name, qualified identifier, variable name, "...", "--", "++", "i", array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript␤ at /tmp/iD6hsLvD05 line 1, column 7␤»
..niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Confused at /tmp/Ee6jP8KUUL line 1:␤------> say 5⏏.␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..rakudo 192c8f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/TzDyMsPyDv:1␤»
masak why is "5." disallowed again? 16:02
(besides it being quite a useless way of writing a Num, I guess)
moritz probably to avoid ambiguity with other stuff
masak yeah, that's my thought.
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moritz just allow it locally, and see what breaks :-) 16:03
masak ah, things like "5..abs" would be ambiguous.
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moritz well, LTM would disambiguate it 16:03
but... not the way that people would want
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masak :) 16:05
I'm not sure LTM would help, if some number rule already gobbled the "5." 16:06
moritz well, tne number rule eats the '5.', so it parses as (5.).abs
PerlJam ranges would need whitespace 16:07
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jnthn That'd kinda suck. 16:09
16:10 bluescreen10 joined
masak yeah. better to outlaw "5.", I think. 16:14
dalek ecs: 3fbe6f7 | larry++ | S09-data.pod:
subscript mapping now [4,:map(*%4)], sorear++
 16:15
masak the subscript mappring syntax keeps jumping around :)
mapping* 16:16
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TimToady this can be matched with a signature, which can also enforce a single "positional" 16:19
and it's obvious what the syntax of additional modifiers might be
[Coke] S16-filehandles/open.t - shouldn't there be a close between the open and unlink? 16:20
colomon [Coke]: yes
TimToady either that, or it's intended to fail on Windows :) 16:21
[Coke] pugs doesn't error out, but isn't deleting the files, either.
I suspect that many usages of unlink() in roast need to be updated.
TimToady they should not be depending on Unix semantics 16:22
dalek kudo/nom: 4e02c27 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Attach FIRST/NEXT/LAST phasers to blocks, though we don't do anything with them yet.
 16:24
kudo/nom: b4b9971 | jonathan++ | src/core/MapIter.pm:
Run the NEXT and LAST phasers for for loops.
masak jnthn++ 16:25
[Coke] yikes.
masak [Coke]: hackathon :) 16:29
[Coke] ahhhh.
colomon get FIRST working! get FIRST working! ;)
[Coke] let me know when you close up shop for the day, I'll kick off a spectestrun.
masak .oO( jnthn++ does FIRST last )
jnthn :D
jnthn is hacking on FIRST now 16:30
[Coke] really should just automate the daily run on feather. 16:32
colomon +1
masak aye.
[Coke] should also push this all into a repo in github. 16:33
(rather than just the results in a gist) 16:34
16:34 havenn joined
[Coke] 1st things 1st. 16:34
16:34 fglock left
masak a gist *is* a repo in github ;) 16:34
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cognominal_ there may be no activity on #phasers but jthn is active on phasers. 16:37
colomon is his work stunning?
masak jnthn: it's nice to see Rakudo finally having ENTER phasers :) 16:38
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masak (Yapsi has had them for almost a year now) 16:38
jnthn colomon: I wouldn't bank on it. 16:39
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skids
.oO(disruptors?)
 16:43
TimToady phenny: tell Radvendii irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-03-04#i_5244895 is why we always use looser/tighter precedence instead of higher/lower; it's clearer which way the metaphor maps, especially when your precedence table is printed upside-down 16:44
phenny TimToady: I'll pass that on when Radvendii is around.
[Coke] masak: well, make it a "real" repo. right now the gist is just the one file, though I have other things... hiding in it. 16:47
(in my local copy)
ok, if I have a crontab on feather... does it respect my timezone? 16:48
(I'd like to have it always run at, say, noon EST.)
TimToady has never heard of such a thing 16:49
it would be pretty easy to write a filter though
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[Coke] sets it for sixpm featherlocal. seems to be running now. 17:01
17:01 huf is now known as libeleral
[Coke] did everything but "paste to IRC" and "git push" (since one requires a bot and the other requires a password) 17:01
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sorear good * #perl6 17:12
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colomon \o 17:13
fglock o/
17:15 birdwindupbird left
TimToady ⌽ 17:15
(samurai about to attack) 17:16
sorear ø
φ θ 17:17
TimToady notes the association of "line" with "death" and "knife" in 列 17:18
masak Ꝋ ø 17:19
TimToady "Add stub parsing for missing phasers" --> "Next time you miss phasers we'll make you parse stubs" 17:20
jnthn :D 17:24
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jnthn Actually, will be on way home from GPW at the time of the next #phasers... 17:27
Looks like I'll be parsing stubs all flight long.
masak I'll be helping you. 17:28
jnthn phew, parsing stubs alone would suck 17:29
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dalek kudo/nom: 5c1b4e6 | jonathan++ | src/ (4 files):
Implement FIRST.
 17:34
kudo/nom: 53aa9c6 | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
Run S04-phasers/first.t.
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dalek atures: 4f01872 | jonathan++ | features.json:
Couple of phasers updates for Rakudo.
 17:36
colomon FIRST! \o/
jnthn SECOND! \o/
masak .oO( jnthn didn't implement FIRST first )
I'll buy a beer to the first person who proof-of-concepts the SECOND phaser. 17:37
jnthn tells me adding custom phasers is entirely feasible.
jnthn I didn't say it wsa entirely easy. :)
tadzik seen jasonmay 17:41
aloha jasonmay was last seen in #perl6 16 days 8 hours ago joining the channel.
TimToady and the SECOND phaser would fire off every second, right ;) 17:42
masak :P
then someone should implement SECOND_LAST :>
[Coke] so, kicked off the tri-spec run at noon. niecza is nearly done (S32) pugs is long done. rakudo is still at S14. 17:43
TimToady SECOND_TO_LAST would be a bit harder
tadzik is there a short for writing something equal to »foo => 'foo'«?
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TimToady pugs sees the fire and the faucet and the bucket, says "It can be proven", and falls back asleep 17:44
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masak tadzik: no, and I'm not sure there should be. :) 17:45
TimToady tadzik: not unless you happen to have a $foo variable containing 'foo' 17:46
masak :'foo'
:P
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masak that's the syntax I'd think it should have if I thought it should have any. 17:46
sorear pfffness 17:47
TimToady perl6: say (foo => 'foo).kv.all == 'foo'
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "foo"␤ expecting term postfix, operator or ")"␤ at /tmp/tQcMz9oXlJ line 1, column 30␤»
..niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/7anuUpYV3g line 1:␤------> say (foo => 'foo).kv.all == '⏏foo'␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..rakudo b4b997: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 2␤»
sorear jnthn is getting further ahead :D
std: my @foo[2+2]
p6eval std 292f669: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
TimToady aww, pairs oughta have a .kv method...
sorear std: my @foo[--> int]
p6eval std 292f669: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix > instead at /tmp/pQo9xE98rI line 1:␤------> my @foo[--⏏> int]␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 110m␤»
jnthn sorear: Don't worry, I'm going on vacation later this month :) 17:48
sorear TimToady: 'foo ? I think you have lisp on the brane again :p
masak sorear: we've plugged him into a Perl 6 treadmill, and he's been running all day! o.O
TimToady perl6: say (foo => 'foo').kv.all == 'foo'
p6eval rakudo b4b997: OUTPUT«all(True, True)␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«all(VBool True)␤»
..niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot parse number: foo␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1362 (die @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3401 (ANON @ 10) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3403 (NumSyntax.str2num @ 4) ␤ at /…
TimToady \o/
sorear n: say (foo => 'foo').kv.all eq 'foo'
p6eval niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«all(Bool::True, Bool::True)␤»
TimToady oh, duh 17:49
PerlJam niecza++
:-)
masak moritz++ # one-letter aliases for everything
TimToady n is for nom, right? :)
masak no, silly. b is for rakudo :P 17:50
sorear I maintain that ŋ is for rakudo
17:51 kaleem joined
masak then č is for Nieča :) 17:52
jnthn Guess Rakudo could be ㅇ too in that case :)
[Coke] wonders where mail sent on feather goes to.
sorear .u ㅇ
phenny U+3147 HANGUL LETTER IEUNG (ㅇ)
sorear what is the rationale for that? 17:54
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sorear 楽: say "Hello, world" 17:54
jnthn Pronounced ng
iirc
TimToady obviously perlito should be º 17:55
[Coke] # 03/05/2012 - rakudo++ ; niecza (96.32%); pugs (30.97%)
"niecza", 20306, 9, 749, 1540, 22604, 23759
"pugs" , 6529, 36, 2838, 1645, 11047, 23568
"rakudo", 21080, 30, 621, 1886, 23617, 24026
sorear NINETY SIX? *sobs melodramatically* 17:56
TimToady obviously std must be 蝶
masak sorear: I'm secretly rooting for your team. hang in there. 17:57
sorear mm, Ydie2 Wjeob チョウ butterfly
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[Coke] new url for the gist is gist.github.com/1476841#file_perl6_pass_rates 17:59
(unfortunately, it failed to update the file properly when run via cron. 18:00
(fixed) 18:04
masak: when you're done boosting rakudo with macros work, could use your help with my pugs problem. ;) 18:06
dalek ast: eb9656a | jonathan++ | S04-phasers/ascending-order.t:
Correct a test.
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dalek kudo/nom: 98f9b74 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Fix use of phasers in the mainline.
 18:08
kudo/nom: 3c5838b | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
Run S04-phasers/ascending-order.t.
jnthn Team hackathon are now going for food and BEER. \o/ o/
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dalek kudo/world-API: f1b49f2 | moritz++ | src/ (4 files):
start passing $/ to Perl6::World methods to make error reporting easier
 18:19
moritz n: constant fib = 1, 1, { $^a + $^b } ... *; say fib[10] 18:21
p6eval niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object␤ at Niecza.Kernel.ToComposable (Niecza.STable arg, Niecza.STable cls) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at Niecza.Kernel.ApplyRoleToClass (Niecza.ST…
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TimToady moritz: niecza still needs the sigil there 18:30
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GlitchMr perl6: /\p{Zs}/ 19:23
p6eval niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Unsupported use of \p{Zs}; in Perl 6 please use <+isZs> at /tmp/B16ggwOIAZ line 1:␤------> /\p{Zs}⏏/␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..rakudo 3c5838: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized backslash sequence at line 1, near "{Zs}/"␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤ unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6.2.13.20111008/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤ eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HAND…
GlitchMr Thanks :)
niecza: /\x{09}/ 19:24
p6eval niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Unrecognized regex backslash sequence at /tmp/zbxou4P0yp line 1:␤------> /\⏏x{09}/␤␤Action method backslash:oops not yet implemented at /tmp/zbxou4P0yp line 1:␤------> /\x⏏{09}/␤␤Unsuppor…
TimToady hmm, that's probably obsolete
or escent
GlitchMr I wanted to check what should I use instead. 19:25
TimToady anyhoo, it'll be changing to <:Zs>
don't know if anyone implements it that way yet
perl6: say 'A' ~~ /<:Lu>/ 19:26
p6eval rakudo 3c5838: OUTPUT«=> <A>␤␤»
..niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(1) text(A) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤ unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6.2.13.20111008/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤ eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HAND…
TimToady okay, looks like they do; the error message is rong
GlitchMr How can I match Unicode character beyond first 256 characters? 19:27
TimToady just put it in your program, for one
Perl 6 programs are Unicode
GlitchMr But I want to match BOM
TimToady \x works
\xFFEF
GlitchMr I see...
TimToady or \x[FFEF] 19:28
er, FEFF
or \c[ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE] 19:29
GlitchMr perl6: /<[\s]>/ ~~ ' ' 19:30
p6eval rakudo 3c5838, niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: ( no output )
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤ unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6.2.13.20111008/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤ eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HAND…
GlitchMr ... makes sense...
perl6: print /<[\s]>/ ~~ ' '
p6eval rakudo 3c5838, niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«False»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤ unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6.2.13.20111008/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤ eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HAND…
GlitchMr I guess I will have to do it outside group 19:31
... Or maybe I have switched the order...
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dalek d: 1ad3292 | larry++ | STD.pm6:
give modern advice on \p and \P
 20:15
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[Coke] Aloha: seen au? 20:21
aloha [Coke]: au was last seen in #perl6 1 days ago joining the channel.
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TimToady pothos, y3llow: your connections are flapping 21:09
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TimToady std: /\p{Lu}/ 21:11
p6eval std 292f669: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of \p{Lu}; in Perl 6 please use <+isLu> at /tmp/oE_10basgQ line 1:␤------> /\p{Lu}⏏/␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 109m␤»
21:11 y3llow left
TimToady evalbot rebuild std 21:11
p6eval OK (started asynchronously)
moritz why not <:Lu> ?
TimToady ^^
21:11 y3llow joined
moritz oh :-) 21:12
21:12 pothos left 21:13 GlitchMr left, pothos joined
dalek Rebuild of std complete. 21:13
TimToady std: /\p{Lu}/
p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of \p{Lu}; in Perl 6 please use <:Lu> at /tmp/8ID3nkdwSa line 1:␤------> /\p{Lu}⏏/␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 109m␤»
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autarch TimToady: ping 21:56
I'm writing an article for LWN about the state of Perl 5
it has a section on 5 vs 6 - I'd love to have you review that (and the rest if you're interested)
seen TimToady 21:59
aloha TimToady was last seen in #perl6 46 mins 13 seconds ago saying "std: /\p{Lu}/".
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autarch TimToady: there's another part about your relationship to Perl 5 I'd also like your review on 22:03
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autarch the article is here in case anyone else wants to look - paste.scsys.co.uk/185314 22:15
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PerlJam autarch: nice article from what I've read so far 22:25
(up to the history section)
pyrimidine autarch: nice summary.
autarch cool, thanks
I'd really like TimToady's blessing before it goes to publication 22:26
pyrimidine autarch: small typo: " and will be responsible the 5.16.0 release." (missing 'for')
[Coke] autarch: +1 from me. 22:27
autarch cool, I wanted to make sure it wasn't misrepresenting Perl 6, since obviously i'm not too involved in it
PerlJam autarch: you might mention that Larry took time away from Perl 6 to update "Programming Perl"
well ... maybe not with that phrasing :) 22:28
autarch I'm not sure where I'd put that
I'm already over their soft word limit ;)
PerlJam oh
autarch it's 1,700 words, they said around 1,500 22:29
I don't think they'll ask for huge cuts, but I'm reluctant to add more stuff ;)
PerlJam it seems like it would make a good parenthetical just after " Nowadays, his focus is almost exclusively on Perl 6."
autarch it's interesting information, but not vital 22:30
if I had more words I'd add it ;)
PerlJam I don't know, the more mentions that that Perl 5 Camel has been updated, the better IMHO 22:31
(it helps stave off the "perl is dead" meme just a little bit more)
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PerlJam autarch++ 22:42
tadzik great article, autarch++ indeed 22:43
pyrimidine tend to agree with PerlJam re: Larry and 'Programming Perl', but the article hits all the necessary points 22:44
autarch it's not that I disagree, it's just that I feel like the article is a bit overstuffed already 22:46
I could easily have written twice as much, but I really tried to pare it down to the minimal amount of stuff 22:47
pyrimidine autarch: I agree. In fact, (as mentioned on #moose) I think some of the Perl 6 background could be trimmed, but that's a difficult decision as it's needed for context 22:49
but it's an excellent read. autarch++
autarch I think one of the most common questions non-insiders have is "what's up with Perl 6"
so I think anything on the state of Perl 5 needs to address Perl 6 22:50
if only to say "I'm not going to talk about Perl 6" ;)
pyrimidine right
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TimToady autarch: it all seems fine to me 23:33
autarch cool, thanks for looking at it
I'll leave the channel, if anyone else has comments later please PM me
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timotimo rakudo: my @l = <a b c>; say @l(2|3); 23:37
p6eval rakudo 3c5838: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:<( )>' not found for invocant of class 'Array'␤ in <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:812␤ in any <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:808␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/5Kv_oIIf77:1␤␤»
timotimo rakudo: my @l = <a b c>; say @l[2|3];
p6eval rakudo 3c5838: OUTPUT«any(c, Any())␤»
timotimo rakudo: say Any();
p6eval rakudo 3c5838: OUTPUT«Method 'Any' not found for invocant of class 'Parcel'␤ in <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:805␤ in <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:802␤ in any <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:797␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/0nO_SpQjxl:1␤␤»
timotimo so i just write rakudobug and someone finds it, yes?
niecza: my @l = <a b c>; say @l[2|3];
23:37 marmalade left
p6eval niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«any("c", Any)␤» 23:37
timotimo niecza: say Any; 23:38
p6eval niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
23:38 PacoAir left
timotimo niecza: say Any(); 23:38
p6eval niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method postcircumfix:<( )> in class Any␤ at /tmp/WAzAsyoMzX line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3838 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3839 (module-CORE @ 65)…
timotimo can i call this nieczabug, too? 23:39
TimToady it's correct behavior, if a poor message
Any() is a coercion without anything to coerce
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TimToady perl6: say Any.perl 23:40
p6eval rakudo 3c5838, niecza v15-3-g1c4b5a7: OUTPUT«Any␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«::Any␤»
TimToady the output of Perl is what the real Perl code is; note the absense of parens 23:41
timotimo mhm
TimToady the parens are there, in fact, to remind you that it's not a real value
if it meant anything in Perl 6, Any() would be a coercion type from Any to Any, which doesn't make a lot of sense 23:42
timotimo all right
TimToady you're getting a different message from rakudo because it recently installed a failover from Type() to ().Type
timotimo i do not know what that means, but you're LW, so you're most probably right! 23:43
TimToady I wish there was some available typography to indicate undefinedness of a name, strikethrough or overbar, but Unicode isn't really up to either of those, so we use empty parens 23:49
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