»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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moritz \o 05:12
sorear o/ 05:17
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fsergot Morning o/ :) 08:15
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dalek kudo/nom: 119fe3b | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
allow "anon sub" again
 08:19
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moritz p6: 1.foo 08:36
p6eval rakudo 4373f0: OUTPUT«Method 'foo' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/mGHPkBuSS3:1␤␤»
..niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method foo in class Int␤ at /tmp/P9Ecgi2bSK line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3842 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3843 (module-CORE @ 65) ␤ at /home/p6e…
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&foo"␤ at /tmp/BY44Th86z6 line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
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moritz that error is thrown from parrot, not from rakudo or nqp :/ 09:00
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sorear moritz: so what? ...is this related to your semantic errors quest? 09:13
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jnthn sorear: Yes, the photo is very real. Straight off my camera with no manipulation. 09:39
Full resolution one is at jnthn.net/photos/full/13711.jpg 09:41
moritz: Yes, it is...and I don't have an easy answer on how to give it a typed exception :( 09:43
gfldex 13711.jpg++ 09:45
Ulti did I imagine an online Try Perl 6 page similar to tryruby.org ? I swear it existed, but can't find it via google 09:49
gfldex there used to be one 09:50
Ulti I remember it was a little broken, but figured if the source was around I'd have a go hacking on it
sorear try.rakudo.org existed once 09:51
jnthn It was at try.rakudo.org
ah, sorear beat me to it
Ulti is that on github somewhere?
sorear jnthn: heh. my eyes-- continue to insist that is a plastic model of a glacier... 09:52
gfldex that would be one big chunk of plastic :)
Ulti or a blue washing up sponge held in front of some mountains 09:53
sorear gfldex: False perspective.
sorear -> sleep
Ulti looks like moritz' brain child github.com/moritz/try.rakudo.org 09:54
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Ulti oh neat its a mojolicious app 09:57
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cognominal_ whoa, the output of --target=parse in last jnthn branch is scary. piping it thru | grep 'Cursor.*!name' to make sense of it. 10:25
jnthn cognominal_: --rxtrace may be more helpful 10:36
cognominal_ not so : "rxtrace" => PMC 'Eval' { ... } 10:38
oops
I typed --target=rxtrace 10:39
jnthn Not --target=rxtrace
right :)
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dima is there any perl6 activity going on in berlin that you know of? 11:55
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moritz no 11:57
jnthn
.oO( Perlin )
 11:58
dima hehe 11:59
moritz dima: but if you ever vist the area around Nürnberg, drop in for a mini hackathon :-) 12:00
dima I'm still reading up on the last 10 years of blogposts to get a feel and see if I might be able to do something useful - not realy a compiler hacker ;) 12:01
moritz well, there are lots of things to do besides hacking on the compilers 12:02
writing tests, writing modules, writing docs, helping other people, organize hackathons, blog about Perl 6, ... 12:03
the list is nearly endless
spider-mario I’ve been wondering, 12:05
is it planned to make tco or at least tro part of the spec?
dima true. I'll look into doing a couple of smaller projects with p6 and see where it leads me. I'm mainly doing (and learning on the go) NLP and ML stuff right now, so maybe that might be an opportunity
spider-mario o
(oops)
moritz spider-mario: what is tco/tro? 12:06
spider-mario tail call optimization
and tail recursion optimization
(tre for elimination might be more common than tro)
moritz spider-mario: the spec is silent on possible optimizations, and I think it'll stay that way
jnthn Yeah, I'd say the same as what moritz said 12:07
spider-mario scheme’s standard does enforce tail call optimization because it is so idiomatic
moritz but we have loops in the language
so the pressure to use use tail recursion is a lot lower 12:08
jnthn If the thing you tail call uses CALLER:: for example then you'd best not apply the optimization.
spider-mario so do they
hm, indeed
moritz well, it's also a cultural thing
jnthn (OK, with CALLER:: potentially there's a transformation...) 12:09
moritz even though there are loops in lisp, all the beginner tutorial teach you how to do stuff with recursion 12:10
that's a bit differnt in p6 land
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spider-mario that’s true 12:10
hm, according to www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=161611 “Larry has already said that simple tail recursion in Perl 6 will be optimized” 12:13
(it’s from 10 years ago, however) 12:14
moritz well, ten years ago people still planned to have a reference implementatioin 12:15
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sdo hello 12:34
I would like to know if there is a way to install perl6 with cpan utility?
tadzik there is an implementation which you can install from CPAN yes, although it's not the most advanced one 12:35
spider-mario (perlito)
tadzik the two major implementations, rakudo and niecza are not installable from cpan
sdo ok because I have a case where I have access to the net but installation with tarball packages are not possible 12:36
moritz you can download them via git, no tarballs necessary 12:37
sdo because I can't use github and clone repository locally
moritz why not? 12:38
(I'm just curious; it seems like an odd restriction to be able to access CPAN but not github) 12:40
sdo ok now I figure out is there a tarball where there is no call to github? 12:44
moritz I think that rakudo star tarball has everything bundled
and you can download niecza releases too
sdo can I have the link? 12:45
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jnthn github.com/rakudo/star/downloads 12:45
moritz github.com/downloads/rakudo/star/r....02.tar.gz 12:46
sdo ok I try and if there is a problem I'll ask questions. Thanks 12:47
moritz github.com/downloads/sorear/niecza...cza-16.zip
dima ~> 12:52
sorry, ssh was hanging 12:53
sdo thanx guys 12:55
spider-mario if it’s a proxy that prevents the use of the git protocol, github enables https access too, sdo 12:56
moritz strongly advises to get a real internet connection and a machine where you can install stuff. 13:02
spider-mario personally, I get rakudo from its git repository, then perl Configure.pl --prefix=$HOME/perl6 --gen-parrot --gen-nqp 13:05
$HOME/perl6/bin is in my PATH
and from time to time, I git pull; make; make install
moritz symlinks ~/p6/rakudo/install/bin/perl6 to ~/bin/ which is in $PATH 13:07
spider-mario (btw, it’s quite active, thank you guys for all the hard work)
(I love this community)
moritz too
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sdo ok everything is tip top with perl6 14:01
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sdo compilation works fine 14:01
everything is great 14:02
I am on mac OSX
thanks again
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lichtkind morning 14:06
TimToady: can cou please tell me what $*ON_DIE and $*ON_WARNING are about or if we can just drop them 14:07
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lichtkind and btw $?XVM is also such candidate to be fall 14:09
because on one hand he should have sisters like $?XKernel
or (and thats my fav) just go into a method like name did 14:10
just for konsistancy
nuff of loneely ranting or lokk like a beggar chatting with himself
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lichtkind but i have still one why is ::?Class not $?Class.name ? 14:16
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jnthn lichtkind: There are both, but only ::?CLASS can go in a type slot. 14:25
lichtkind: $?CLASS won't parse as a class name.
er, type name.
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masak yo, #perl6 14:56
tadzik yo dawg
spider-mario yo dawg 14:58
masak I know you like Perl...
spider-mario I heard you like Perl 6…
oh
yours is better
masak :)
"Perl 6: putting a Perl in your perl so you can Perl while you Perl since 2000." 14:59
spider-mario well, since “you need a Perl 6 compiler to implement a Perl 6 compiler”… :::) 15:02
masak adjusts his mental model of spider-mario as being a six-eyed alien in Rouen 15:03
spider-mario :D
I’m at my parents’, right now
at ~ 20km from Paris 15:04
jnthn o/ masak
masak jnthn! \o/
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cognominal_ spider-mario, where that? I am leaving at Arcueil. 15:07
spider-mario Montigny-lès-Cormeilles
lichtkind jnthn: thanks for enlightenment but rakudo still does $*OS which is officially now $*KERNEL
cognominal_ spider-mario, and where do you live usually? 15:08
spider-mario at my parents’ during week-ends and holidays, Rouen when I go to my school 15:09
cognominal_ are you coming to the French Perl workshop?
there will be a perl 6 workshop.
journeesperl.fr/fpw2012/ 15:10
spider-mario I didn’t know about that
but Strasbourg is a little far :/ 15:11
cognominal_ masak and jonathan are presenting talks, I hope some other from this channel will do too.
tadzik I'd love to come 15:15
cognominal_ BooK will provide some Chartreuse as usual… en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartreuse_(liqueur) 15:16
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cognominal_ By coincidence, Chartreuse is one of TimToady favorite colors. 15:18
tadzik gah, Ratel's broken on nom now 15:20
jnthn tadzik: nom regression? 15:23
lichtkind masak: i really searched the rakudo source but i cant see wehere $*OS is defined
tadzik jnthn: apparently. A fresh one too 15:24
jnthn: I'll provide a test case
r: gist.github.com/2329719 15:26
p6eval rakudo 4373f0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $.emit-hunk(0) used where no 'self' is available␤at eval_0:1␤»
tadzik n: gist.github.com/2329719
p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ %attrs is declared but not used at /tmp/R_pRyPlZi5 line 56:␤------> method render(*⏏%attrs) {␤␤Unhandled exception: Variable $.emit-hunk(0) used where no 'self' is available␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/…
tadzik so it may be that it's Ratelbug
class Foo { has $.a = 5; method bar { eval 'say $.a' } }; Foo.new.bar 15:27
r: class Foo { has $.a = 5; method bar { eval 'say $.a' } }; Foo.new.bar
p6eval rakudo 4373f0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $.a used where no 'self' is available␤at eval_0:1␤»
tadzik there we are
n: class Foo { has $.a = 5; method bar { eval 'say $.a' } }; Foo.new.bar 15:28
jnthn Oh. Interesting. :)
p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Variable $.a used where no 'self' is available␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1362 (die @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 5722 (STD.sorry @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 5498 (ANON @ 2)…
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jnthn Of course, the eval doesn't run until runtime, so the $*HAS_SELF contextual is long gone. 15:30
Well, there's a fresh one for the purpose of the eval, of course.
tadzik I'm wondering if it ever worked post-bs 15:31
jnthn It wasn't bs 15:32
It was when we implemented $*HAS_SELF from STD that woulda busted it.
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stevieb_ hey all :) I just want to shout out to moritz with appreciation for sharing my blogpost 15:39
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TimToady that's spelled "moritz++" around here 15:44
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lichtkind TimToady: sorry for so much requests at once but are you in mood of than var anme thinking? 15:50
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TimToady yes, there should probably also be an XKERNEL, unless we rethink the whole cross-complation namespace issue some other way 16:01
*compilation
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TimToady I'm not convinced that $*ON_DIE and $*ON_WARNING are redundant with exception handlers, since they're policy hooks for what to do before a throw 16:03
I guess I'm okay with changing $~Q to $~Quote, though anyone who knows what Q does will surely figure out what the $~Q slang 16:07
jnthn aside the redundant counter variable...
er, wrong window
TimToady maybe we should rename $~Regex to $~rx instead :P 16:08
lichtkind haha 16:12
thanks
TimToady: so i can quote you on "I'm okay with changing $~Q to $~Quote,"? :) 16:13
TimToady: and i actually just wanted know what $*ON_DIE and $*ON_WARNING do in detail
allright my last issue for now, do we still need $?ARCH ? 16:22
TimToady no set of names is adequate to describe a fractal environment 16:29
bbl &
masak lichtkind: $*OS is at src/core/terms.pm:52 16:36
lichtkind masak: have a commit acess to rakud? 16:37
masak yes, but don't do pull requests through me, I'm only intermittently here tonight.
lichtkind masak: why whould i do that if i can push directly? 16:38
masak why would you ask about my commit bit if you can push directly?
lichtkind TimToady: so $?Arch is officially gone? 16:39
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lichtkind_ masak: i asked you if i can get a comit bit 16:42
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lichtkind studying github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...e/terms.pm tells me there needs some extra effort to make $*KERNEL an object with methods like name and version 17:07
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lichtkind i found another reason why $~Quote is besster it has all the rules not only what Q does but plus all the adverbs 17:41
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colomon has no idea all thise $~Quote / $~Q talk is about.... 17:41
geekosaur germlish? 17:43
lichtkind yes 17:45
i meant better
an s came in
geekosaur: yet another geman more here?
colomon bester is nice word; clear meaning, and it makes me think of the author, and Babylon Five... 17:46
lichtkind colomon: i just comprehend naming rules of special vars and dids some suggesttion how make names more consistent
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lichtkind colomon: and larry was not opposed rename $~Q tu $~Quote 17:46
i love babylon five 17:47
colomon lichtkind: I know you're not the original source of it, I've already seen it in e-mail today. I just can't recall ever hearing of $~Q before. Indeed, I don't remember $~ being a thing at all...
lichtkind: you remember Bester, then, right? Great character.
lichtkind a 17:49
ja 17:51
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lichtkind chief of psi choir 18:00
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jnthn
.oO( Did the psi choir do a cover of Queen's "Under Pressure"? )
 18:07
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colomon and here I was picturing a choir that sang only with the power of their minds... 18:09
lichtkind: psi could also be Pressure per Square Inch, and a choir is a singing group. (A "corps" is "a body of people engaged in a particular activity"; it's the Psi Corps in B5.) 18:12
but psi choir truly is a lovely image!
lichtkind colomon: i had so much to ponder which i call of thelepath i would belong too 18:24
colomon: or which callcertain impression belonge 18:25
d
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timotimo isn't he called Festerbester? 18:44
i clearly remember him being referred to as "festerbester"
he wasn't very good friends with commander sherripie, right? 18:45
lichtkind btw best pun last week from a python fan: pathon - like guido indented it :) 18:48
python 18:49
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sorear good * #perl6 18:58
lichtkind good moin 19:02
TimToady: can i push the change of $~Q and delete of $*ARCH ? 19:03
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moritz \o 19:44
fglock moritz: o/ 19:46
sorear o/
fsergot \o 19:48
tadzik o/ 19:58
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[Coke] are we playing plinko? 20:30
jnthn++ nice email response to allison 20:33
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moritz indeed 20:35
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[Coke] p: my uint $a; $a=3; 20:39
p6eval pugs: ( no output )
moritz pugs just ignores type constraints
(except when multi-dispatching, I think) 20:40
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[Coke] which is fine, as it gets me some passes. 20:47
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lichtkind [Coke]: its on p6l? 21:12
tadzik n: my %a = POST => 1; 21:15
p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ %a is declared but not used at /tmp/qjrJEwgsqK line 1:␤------> my ⏏%a = POST => 1;␤␤»
tadzik perl6: my %a = POST => 1;
p6eval pugs: ( no output )
..niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ %a is declared but not used at /tmp/B9QZZj74G8 line 1:␤------> my ⏏%a = POST => 1;␤␤»
..rakudo 4373f0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix => instead at line 1, near " 1;"␤»
tadzik is masakbot around?
[Coke] p: subset Even of Int where { $_ % 2 == 0 }; 21:16
p6eval pugs: ( no output )
[Coke] lichtkind: the email? perl6-compiler 21:17
lichtkind ah thanks
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dalek ast: 55c49fa | coke++ | S02-types/ (6 files):
pugs fudge
 21:31
gs.hs: 39d6aac | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
run (fudged) test
gs.hs: f01f555 | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
run (fudged) tests
gs.hs/so: 997861d | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
run (fudged) test
[Coke] agh, that commit wasn't supposed to be on so. I caught it right after I committed, move dit to master locally, ammended it, and then forgot I had it on so! 21:32
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dalek ast: 99f26b6 | coke++ | S02-types/ (2 files):
pugs fudge
 21:45
gs.hs: 5a921bf | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
run (fudged) test
 21:46
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tadzik Bailador::Test arises! github.com/tadzik/Bailador/blob/ma...xistance.t 22:14
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jnthn tadzik++ :D 22:18
pmichaud jnthn: ping
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jnthn pmichaud: pong 22:20
pmichaud re: the discussion on rakudo packaging.... to your knowledge, are there any places where Rakudo "pokes indiscriminately into Parrot internals"?
I know we had them at one time; I'm curious to know if they still exist.
(are there any places where we do things outside of the normal APIs?) 22:21
jnthn The binder does because there simply *isn't* any API way at present to see if we're being passed native types.
pmichaud any others?
jnthn Possibly exceptions (more)
Though it's possible the stuff mls++ calls is all considered Parrot API. 22:22
pmichaud okay, thanks
jnthn I know he was working in both Parrot and Rakudo when he did that stuff.
So one would hope that we're doing API things.
All this said - there may be places that aren't strictly "guts poking" but make assumptions. 22:23
Can't think of an example off hand.
pmichaud: What I think *is* significant is that none of the Parrot bumps I mentioned had something in the commit message saying "we were poking at stuff we shouldn't have been, thus this change to re-sync" 22:24
pmichaud: Furthermore, the binder actually has a comment calling out explicitly where we are knowingly going poking.
pmichaud yeah. Allison is primarily wanting to know why we require newer Parrots and can't stick to older ones on our releases. 22:25
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, I just saw her latest reply to mine. 22:26
pmichaud: I think it comes down to resource allocation at some level. 22:27
(e.g. if we have to go out of our way to be backward compatible further back, it takes time/effort) 22:30
tadzik good night #perl6 22:32
jnthn 'night tadzik
dima btw, just a curious - do you use any special tags in your issue-tracking to mark issues which can be solved by uninitiated? hbase has a "noob" tag ;)
pmichaud I didn't see her reply 22:33
let me check before I send my email
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pmichaud do we have the case of NQP depending on a library in Parrot that depends on NQP? 22:43
I don't think we do.
jnthn ...how would that work? :) 22:44
Certainly not on new NQP.
pmichaud Allison draws that conclusion in her reply; I'm going to say "it doesn't happen"
jnthn I suspect it's confusion over NQPs. :) 22:45
pmichaud I suspect so.
jnthn Parrot depends on nqp-rx.
Which is bundled within Parrot.
spider-mario what is it? 22:48
(if I may ask)
jnthn spider-mario: Which "it"? :) 22:52
spider-mario nqp-rx
jnthn A previous generation of NQP.
spider-mario oh, ok
thanks
pmichaud what's up with github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/242f6e...d038d95931 ? 22:56
(the getprop opcode change)
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jnthn pmichaud: getprop has always had its arguments backwards compared to getattribute 22:57
pmichaud: Somebody decided they should do something about that.
pmichaud jnthn: was that somebody a parrot dev or was it done as a rakudo/nqp request? 22:58
jnthn Parrot.
pmichaud okay
jnthn pmichaud: I'm fairly certain the dev in question gave us a patch.
pmichaud yes, I agree
I'm just checking before writing. :)
(yes, it was bacek++)
better would've been to introduce a new opcode with the correct ordering, than to make an incompatible API change 22:59
jnthn Aye
Well
In terms of backward compat, yes.
pmichaud but it does explicitly illustrate for Allison that the problems here aren't really with Rakudo/NQP
Allison says we should keep track of a "minimum version of Parrot" ; I agree, but that patch means that our minimum version would've just bumped to 4.2.0
and it was completely out of our control 23:00
jnthn Aye
"I do get a regular series of unusual requests from the Rakudo packagers" ==> I'm curious what those are. 23:02
pmichaud I know what's happening -- I'm finishing up my email on it now.
jnthn ah, cool
pmichaud++
pmichaud Essentially, the Rakudo packagers are pushing to have the latest releases of rakudo
and they're limited by the version of Parrot
23:02 raiph left
pmichaud so they're trying to get around that limitation. What needs to happen is that the packagers use whatever version of Rakudo corresponds to the version of Parrot 23:03
23:06 NamelessTee left 23:07 PacoAir left 23:14 hundskatt joined 23:17 raiph joined 23:20 spider-mario left
lichtkind raiph: ready 23:25
sorear pmichaud: How hard would it be to allow Rakudo to use *newer* parrots? 23:28
do we generally depend on an exact version, or a "4.2.0 or later" version?
23:28 ggoebel left 23:29 ggoebel joined
jnthn sorear: I'm pretty sure laters "just work", or at least the Configure script doesn't complain about them. 23:31
pmichaud message sent
sorear: PARROT_REVISION is a "this version or newer" marker 23:32
i.e., we expect parrots newer than PARROT_REVISION to still work. Parrot doesn't always oblige.
for example, 4.2.0 isn't backward compatible with 4.1.0 23:33
jnthn -> sleep, night o/ 23:44
dalek ecs: 62f3a4b | (Herbert Breunung)++ | S02-bits.pod:
renaming $~Q to $~Quote okayed by $*Larry
 23:58
ecs: 967ebce | (Herbert Breunung)++ | S28-special-names.pod:
removed $*ARCH and $*XARCH
lichtkind good night jnthn

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